Can a believer go to the Lake of Fire?

[sheila]

imo it went like this..the prodigal went through a harsh and difficult expierence...and the elder brother

  WAS harsh and difficult.  same o same o..with the phairsee's and sadducee's when Jesus started forgiving sins

   and  eating and drinking with the sinners.

IT IS A REALLY BIG SIN TO HARDEN YOUR HEART IN UNFORGIVENESS...where was the elders brother's

love for his brother? sin..sin..sin...on these two things..love God and love your brother as yourself.......

  as Jesus said 'those who are forgiven much..love much

[Seth]

Nobody who is faithful to the father is perfect. That's not required. What's required is that we be chastised according to grace to grow toward perfection. Everyone has sin and if we say we don't we are liars and the truth is not in us. What's clear to me from the parable is that the only reason the prodigal son endured his experience was because he wanted to leave his fathers side. The elder son did not. It doesn't mean he was perfect and there is no indication that any further judgment is needed for him unless we just extend the parable further than what it says.

[sheila]

its the same o same as the 11hour worker...and an evil heart coming forth..disgruntled feeling somehow

deserving of more..and feeling cheated cause you think your brother/fellowman got more[a better deal

somehow from the Father].

  better be getting it out of your hearts..and not be lying against the truth......

[Seth]

That's why it's important to be chastened by grace. Why does chastening exist except that it's needed?

[sheila]

Ye must be perfect..as your heavenly Father is perfect...........ye can not meet out chastized by grace

for some[you] and growing to perfection...and LOF to other's....that"s a lying cheating pair of scales.


   Truth is the Father loves both His sons..and that love is not based on works..and has,and will always

  show grace as is needed to recover them.  As all have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,too,shall

all bear the image of the incorrupt one.

   the LOF is where those who didn't clothe[best robe] feed[enjoy the fatted-calf] one of these little ones

  Jesus said..'whatever ye did or didn't do for one of these least[last/lost] little ones...that's the lost ones."

   for I was naked,hungry,sick,in prison.......

   

[Seth]

Ye must be perfect..as your heavenly Father is perfect...........ye can not meet out chastized by grace

for some[you] and growing to perfection...and LOF to other's....that"s a lying cheating pair of scales.

No it isn't, God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. A clear difference. Not all grow in grace because we access grace through faith.


   

Truth is the Father loves both His sons..and that love is not based on works..and has,and will always

  show grace as is needed to recover them.  As all have bore the image of the corrupt one,so,too,shall

all bear the image of the incorrupt one.

   the LOF is where those who didn't clothe[best robe] feed[enjoy the fatted-calf] one of these little ones

  Jesus said..'whatever ye did or didn't do for one of these least[last/lost] little ones...that's the lost ones."

   for I was naked,hungry,sick,in prison.......

Yes and that is why the Spirit and Bride are shown ministering to those outside the gates of the Bride, doing good for the naked. But we are encouraged to be clothed.

[sheila]

...and you think the 'faith' is of ourselves?GOD MAKES IT GROW!!

  now just who? was the humble one in the prodigal parable?

[sheila]

Lord,Lord didn't we cast out demons in your name...?

[Seth]

I never said it was of ourselves. The prodigal son was humbled by his own experiences. The elder son was judged by chastening. As his father said

Luke 15
31 "'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"

There no indication that the elder son is not always with his father and that all the father has is not still his, unless we add to the parable. What's important is that according to the internal logic of the parable, the prodigal son was away from his father because he wanted to be. When he came back it was indeed glorious but that doesn't mean that one son is more loved than the other or that the elder son needs more punishment than what he got.

[sheila]

if ye have not love,ye are but a clanging cymbol....I did thus and thus......

.

[Seth]

We don't have love of ourselves. So we need the pruning of The Lord.

[micah7:9]

I'm reading my Bible and I may be repeating myself but I am reading my Bible..
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
And then the second death is defined....Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it.
:Chinscratch:

[Seth]

There are two possible ways to not be hurt by a lake.

1) being in the lake and not being hurt by it
2) NOT being the lake and therefore not being hurt by it

The existence of New Jerusalem as God dwelling among his people in the book of Revelation tells me that it's option #2. The reason they are not hurt of the second death is because they have access to rivers of life within the city, and the tree of life at the center of the city. The Bible describes those who are thrown into the lake of fire as those who had given power to the beast. These are clearly distinguished from the saints of the book of Revelation as those who have not defiled themselves (Revelation 14). Inside is life. Outside is death.

Here is what I believe you are assuming:

"He that overcomes shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). The red part is not in the verse, but I think you are assuming it.

[Seth]

Revelation 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever (eis aion aion); they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

[joeteekay]

I lean toward Seths take on the Lake of Fire. I though, just recently, all go into/trhough it, even the Elect.
I now lean toward the idea that we all go through a fire, but for the Elect is is our own personal fire because of God's direct involvement in our lives.
And the Lake of Fire is a lake or large pond. Why? Maybe because so many need to be purified and purged in it during the WTJ. Billions of the non-Elect. After all is not a pond or lake that many go into on a hot summer day to be refreshed?
Gods refreshing for all will come at the consummation.


:2c:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

When I see this "10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God"

I think about how wine is also associated with pleasure, and makes people drunk.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

[micah7:9]

There are two possible ways to not be hurt by a lake.

1) being in the lake and not being hurt by it
2) NOT being the lake and therefore not being hurt by it

The existence of New Jerusalem as God dwelling among his people in the book of Revelation tells me that it's option #2. The reason they are not hurt of the second death is because they have access to rivers of life within the city, and the tree of life at the center of the city. The Bible describes those who are thrown into the lake of fire as those who had given power to the beast. These are clearly distinguished from the saints of the book of Revelation as those who have not defiled themselves (Revelation 14). Inside is life. Outside is death.

Here is what I believe you are assuming:

"He that overcomes shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). The red part is not in the verse, but I think you are assuming it.

NO SIR, I do not assume what you speak. "He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).
I see no assumption, the SECOND DEATH will not hurt the overcomer, I believe(imo) they[overcomers]have went thru the FIRE in their walk, being the House of God their judgment has been proven, thus the lake of fire which is the second death will not be hurt. And you do well to remove  shall be thrown into the lake of fire but, cause it ain't there nor in what I stated.

[Seth]

It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.

Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."

When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.

[sheila]

so be careful how you build...1Cor 3;13  it will be revealed with fire...v15 if it is burned up,he will suffer

  loss[harm]   the judgement of what each man has done in the bodywhether good or evilis revealed

  by this fire..which willconsume our chaff/tares/wood. If what he has built survives,he will receive reward.

  if it is burned uphe will suffer loss;he himself will be saved,but only by escaping through the flames.

[Seth]

God is a consuming fire
Wickedness is like a fire (Isaiah 9)

Both are applicable but God is not wickedness. So just because we see "fire" doesn't mean it always symbolizes ONE thing.

Revelation 21
Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things (New Jerusalem), and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

So, given that the BRIDE of Christ is God's people and he dwells within them, if anything when we receive Christ we exit our own Lake of Fire to start a new life to eat of the Tree of Life and drink from the waters that flow from our bellies, at least the LOF as defined in Revelation.

[micah7:9]

It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.

Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."

When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.

"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11).

One cannot be hurt from something that they will not experience.

[Seth]

If I don't experience getting into the ring with a boxer, I don't get hurt by the boxer. So I disagree with your statement as a matter of common sense.

[micah7:9]

It's not what you stated, but what I believe you are still assuming.

Your statement is this: "Unless I am reading it wrong it says the overcomer[elect] is in the lake of fire[the second death]but will not be hurt in/of it."

When does that Revelation passage SAY that the overcomer is in the lake of fire? The verse does not SAY that. Now, you are drawing from other verses outside of Revelation to prove that the verse says something it doesn't say. Regardless of what you think it implies or means, the fact is, Rev. 2:11 doesn't actually say what you claim it does. That's what the red text shows.

The red text does not exist in the verse.

[Seth]

Exactly my point.

[micah7:9]

If I don't experience getting into the ring with a boxer, I don't get hurt by the boxer. So I disagree with your statement as a matter of common sense.

My bad.