Both saints and sinners are left behind during the rapture...

[thinktank]

 :mshock: I had to rub my eyes there for a minute...But then I realized you were complimenting what wings actually wrote  :laughing7:

[Molly]

:mshock: I had to rub my eyes there for a minute...But then I realized you were complimenting what wings actually wrote  :laughing7:

Oh, sorry.  I couldn't tell who wrote what in that post.  I was just blown away that a different word for 'resurrection' is used
in the Greek.  Kind of like a 'set apart resurrection,' or as he says in Hebrews, 'a better resurrection.'

But, I'd like to know what it means.  What is the exanastasis?  The out-from-resurrection?  Paul goes on to call it 'the high calling of God' and the 'prize.'  Is this something that can even happen while alive as the amplified Bible maintains?

I liked the reference to the two companies of Jacob.  The beloved company is the smaller group and they also get the prize--the double portion to Joseph.

From amplified Bible

11That if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].
--Phil 3

[Molly]

You obviously don't have a dog...
The dog runs like crazy to meet it's master that was away for a while. Then they walk both to the place where the dog was. Again that's my whole point. The saints that meet Jesus in the air are the dogs that meet their master. The master is coming home....
Classic rapture teaching says Jesus comes to collect the saints and guide them to heaven. The Bible seems to say Jesus is joining the saints on earth.

That's a great way to put it! :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

:mshock: I had to rub my eyes there for a minute...But then I realized you were complimenting what wings actually wrote  :laughing7:

I was just blown away that a different word for 'resurrection' is used
in the Greek.  Kind of like a 'set apart resurrection,' or as he says in Hebrews, 'a better resurrection.'

I would suggest to read about the difference between trumpet and trumpetS.
It's a huge key to understanding....

[shawn]

Trumpets
Jacob's family was divided into two companies, or camps. This
speaks of the Feast of Trumpets, where the believers will be divided into two companies: the congregation
(church) and the rulers (overcomers). They are also represented by Leah and Rachel, the two wives of Jacob,
for Leah had weak eyes, while Rachel was beautiful (Gen. 29:17).
Leah produced the most children, even as the Church is in the majority. Though she was a lawful wife, she did
not have a love relationship with Jacob. This foreshadows those believers who are Christians only because they
are afraid of burning in hell forever. Their love is not yet perfected, for they are still afraid of God. "Perfect love
casts out fear" (1 John 4:18).
Rachel, the beloved wife, produced the fewest children, but her son, Joseph, was the inheritor of the birthright.
Joseph represents the overcomers.
And so, the two companies at Mahanaim show us the type and shadow of the Feast of Trumpets and the fact
that on this day the overcomers will be raised out from among the dead. The first resurrection will divide
people into two camps. For this reason, the apostle Paul said in Phil. 3:11, " in order that I may attain to the
out-resurrection from among the dead" [ek-anastasis ek nekron].
The usual word for resurrection is anastasis, as used in the previous verse. But verse 11 uses the Greek word,
ek-anastasis, which literally means the "out-from-resurrection." In The Companion Bible, Bullinger comments
on this, saying,
"Resurrection from the dead (ek nekron) implies the resurrection of some, the former of these two
classes, the others being left behind."

I really enjoyed this, TT. 

If by any means I might attain unto

Phil 1:11
[the] "resurrection" [of the dead]
G1815
ἐξανάστασις
exanastasis
ex-an-as'-tas-is
From G1817; a rising from death: - resurrection.

I agree...I very much like this.

[Molly]

:mshock: I had to rub my eyes there for a minute...But then I realized you were complimenting what wings actually wrote  :laughing7:

I was just blown away that a different word for 'resurrection' is used
in the Greek.  Kind of like a 'set apart resurrection,' or as he says in Hebrews, 'a better resurrection.'

I would suggest to read about the difference between trumpet and trumpetS.
It's a huge key to understanding....

Could you just tell me what you are thinking?

[WhiteWings]

You wouldn't understand Molly. I think in Dutch  :icon_jokercolor:

It's all in my first post but especially for you....


^YLTNumbers 10
2 `Make to thee two trumpets of silver; beaten work thou dost make them, and they have been to thee for the convocation of the company, and for the journeying of the camps;
3 and they have blown with them, and all the company have met together unto thee, unto the opening of the tent of meeting.
4 And if with one they blow, then have the princes, heads of the thousands of Israel, met together unto thee;
==> If 2 trumpets are blown all people should gather. If 1 trumpet is blown only the leaders.

^YLT1 Thessalonians 4
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
==> 1 trump is blown. The sign for leaders... Not for the masses. Not even for the whole "church".

[WhiteWings]

^YLTMatthew 24
29 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.


Trumpet ==> That's just one trumpet so it a call for the leaders.
With a little imagination leader=saints/overcomers/etc

So the presense/absense of the "S" tells us which group the verse is about. I think that's a quite useful thing to know...

[HartleyIrvinDamboiseII]

T

^YLT1 Thessalonians 4
15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;



Ok this is another thought.... on my part......

those alive after made thus, i.e. Law/death, law followers/only payout of Law is death,   so when God made a new way, Grace, outside of Law, those that are made ALIVE IN Christ, Oh don't forget that Air Refered above is also the same as the troubling of the waters or movement of air is Spirit of God.   

So Gracers or Believers in the Grace of God are those that are moved by God/Air

[HartleyIrvinDamboiseII]

T

^YLT1 Thessalonians 4
15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;



Ok this is another thought.... on my part......

those alive after made thus, i.e. Law/death, law followers/only payout of Law is death,   so when God made a new way, Grace, outside of Law, those that are made ALIVE IN Christ, Oh don't forget that Air Refered above is also the same as the troubling of the waters or movement of air is Spirit of God.   

So Gracers or Believers in the Grace of God are those that are moved by God/Air

The Dead in Christ is another clue to really think about.... I was always taught that there is no death about Christ... But I  (HID) says, that ALL HAVE BEEN SAVED SENSE CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD, AND 99.9 % OF MANKIND DONT KNOW  THEY WILL LIVE FOR EVER.... So when God makes you aware of His presence or awakens you, ( slang, born again, alter call etc... ) you start on a journey of chipping away at that lack of knowledge.... Lee

[Molly]

You wouldn't understand Molly. I think in Dutch  :icon_jokercolor:

It's all in my first post but especially for you....


^YLTNumbers 10
2 `Make to thee two trumpets of silver; beaten work thou dost make them, and they have been to thee for the convocation of the company, and for the journeying of the camps;
3 and they have blown with them, and all the company have met together unto thee, unto the opening of the tent of meeting.
4 And if with one they blow, then have the princes, heads of the thousands of Israel, met together unto thee;
==> If 2 trumpets are blown all people should gather. If 1 trumpet is blown only the leaders.

^YLT1 Thessalonians 4
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
==> 1 trump is blown. The sign for leaders... Not for the masses. Not even for the whole "church".

So is that what we could call the 'rapture'?  Is this what Paul was attaining to, the prize?  And, will this signal the end of the age, or will there be another resurrection at the end of this age?

[WhiteWings]

Yes, that is the 'rapture'.

Just after the fall harvest there is the day of atonement. Festival of trumpetS

And, will this signal the end of the age, or will there be another resurrection at the end of this age?

Start of LoF perhaps?

I wouldn't be suprised if the overcomers are the angels in this verse:
^EBRRevelation 14
10 he also, shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared, unmixed, in the cup of his anger; ––and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, before holy messengers and before the Lamb;

[Molly]

Just to see if I correctly understand what you are saying--

In the rapture verse in 1Thess--one trump is blown, calling the leaders to the exanastasis--many are called but few are chosen--this is the higher calling?

Then you reference the day of atonement when two trumpets are blown--would this be the great white throne judgment?

The trumpet is the voice of Christ, btw--what would two trumpets mean?  Christ plus a company?

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
--Rev 1

[Molly]

Molly:And, will this signal the end of the age, or will there be another resurrection at the end of this age?
Start of LoF perhaps?

Quote from: WhiteWings
I wouldn't be suprised if the overcomers are the angels in this verse:
EBRRevelation 14
10 he also, shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared, unmixed, in the cup of his anger; ––and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, before holy messengers and before the Lamb;

Just saw this.
Yes I agree on the angels--that might be a description of the thousand year reign?  Satan is locked up for 1000 years.

I think this describes the 1000 year reign:

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1

If Christ is coming with his saints for the 1000 year reign, does that mean these saints have to be 'raptured' first?

I think this also describes the beginning of the 1000 year reign--could this be the time of the 'rapture' of the overcomers:

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ--the Christ is a hologram.

[jabcat]

Just to see if I correctly understand what you are saying--

In the rapture verse in 1Thess--one trump is blown, calling the leaders to the exanastasis--many are called but few are chosen--this is the higher calling?

Then you reference the day of atonement when two trumpets are blown--would this be the great white throne judgment?

The trumpet is the voice of Christ, btw--what would two trumpets mean?  Christ plus a company?

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
--Rev 1

I know the "Concordant Version crowd" (Martin Zender, Tony N, etc.) believe there will be a relative few who are granted life in the first resurrection (Life Eonian), which is as I understand it, a 1,000 year reign with Christ - a special privilege.  While the rest of humanity will be raised later to judgment, correction, and final/complete vivification.  I believe they teach that those in the first resurrection are simply those saved by grace in this age - they've been called and chosen in this age, and given the faith to trust in Jesus as their Savior.  While the rest will be brought to a point of kneeling and confessing later, having missed out on the "special" or greater resurrection.   :2c:

If someone more knowledgable of "Concordant/Knoch" teachings (and that could be under-selling it;  it could be totally Biblically accurate - I'm still open on the topic) sees this, please expound/correct.  James.

[Molly]

One trumpet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy7XVvu6oqE
The trumpet shall sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible.
And we shall be changed.

[WhiteWings]

Just to see if I correctly understand what you are saying--

In the rapture verse in 1Thess--one trump is blown, calling the leaders to the exanastasis--many are called but few are chosen--this is the higher calling?

Yes, I think so. The return of Jesus is (near) the start of the 1000 year kingdom. The overcomers will rule earth with Jesus.

Then you reference the day of atonement when two trumpets are blown--would this be the great white throne judgment?

I think the day of atonement is very near to God being all in all.

The trumpet is the voice of Christ, btw--what would two trumpets mean?  Christ plus a company?

I only know the OT thaught us about the meaning of one and two trumpets. I (still) think the NT follows the same rules. That said I can't answer your question.
Obviously there is much more to know than I've put in my 2 opening posts...

[Molly]

I don't know about the rest of you, but this is giving me goosebumps. :bgdance:



Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.

29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 2

[WhiteWings]

One trumpet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy7XVvu6oqE
The trumpet shall sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible.
And we shall be changed.

SOME of the dead.

^YLTJohn 5
28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.
==> This verse can't be about the first resurrection because it was limited "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were finished."

So the saints are raised in (at least) 2 stages.

[Molly]

One trumpet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy7XVvu6oqE
The trumpet shall sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible.
And we shall be changed.

SOME of the dead.

^YLTJohn 5
28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.
==> This verse can't be about the first resurrection because it was limited "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were finished."

So the saints are raised in (at least) 2 stages.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

--Rev 20

[goosebumps]

[Molly]

 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

--Eph 1



10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection [exanastasis] of the dead.

--Phil 3



16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1 Thess 4

[Beloved Servant]

We in Him are: The Melchizedek Priesthood.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen.....my  :2c:......high calling = becoming one with the High Priest of our confession, thereby doing EVERYTHING He could do.

Put simply, the priests (Pentecost portion) covered sin, but the High priest (Tabernacles portion) could remove it, once a year.

Removing it means all the outward effects of it are gone as well = sickness, lameness, deafness, ect., disappeared in an instant.

This was what was obviously different about our High Priest, in that [every day] He walked in the authority of Tabernacles REMITTING sins, not just one day a year.

This was why the Pharisees were so freaked out over it and wanted to know by whose authority He did these things (as if they had to ask). They fully realized He was walking in the authority of Tabernacles, which meant He was chosen of God as the High Priest, but their hearts were so wicked and hardened that THEY blasphemed God (He hath a devil doing the works), then accused Him of blasphemy.

He was/is the almond tree rod (firstfruits) that budded AND bore fruit that remaineth (ressurected). Aaron's rod only budded, because he died like a man, ie. "Have I not said ye are gods, yet ye die like men?

The issue is not that we are little gods as the New Age influence has erred with, but rather that He is complaining about HOW we die. How does a "god" die? No greater love has any man than this.......it is appointed unto man to die ONCE, and then the judgment. Blessings....

[Molly]

We in Him are: The Melchizedek Priesthood.

:thumbsup:

one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
--Heb 7:16


So we are talking about the royal priesthood--both kings and priests.

[Beloved Servant]

I like this from the Emphatic Diaglott:

Jam 1:18; having willed he begot us by a word of truth, in order that to be us, first-fruit a kind of the of himself creatures.