biblical inerrancy

[anti_nietzsche]

For me, I'm not sure about biblical inerrancy. Which means, for me, that I can't prove universal salvation from the bible and search for other means to do so. Are there others like me here? If yes, how do you deal with things like the mosaic law and stoning and all that? When Jesus said the Jews couldn't stone the adulteress, how was He allowed to do so when the mosaic law was legitimate? Or were there things in the mosaic law that the Jews misinterpreted, such as a proscription of stoning that I am not aware of? I often think of this and find stoning rather terrible. And either way, because of these and other things I can't accept biblical inerrancy. What do you think?

[WhiteWings]

Not understanding something doesn't mean the Bible is wrong.
Imo Jesus didn't let the adulteress go. He let "those who accuse" you handle it.
My understanding is that according to Mosaic law that's father and husband

[jabcat]

Not understanding something doesn't mean the Bible is wrong.

:thumbsup:

For me, I'm not sure about biblical inerrancy. Which means, for me, that I can't prove universal salvation from the bible and search for other means to do so.  And either way, because of these and other things I can't accept biblical inerrancy.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/

[Seth]

If yes, how do you deal with things like the mosaic law and stoning and all that?

I take the scripture to be inerrant, but I distinguish that from "Bible" as in the Bible is a translation of the scripture. As for the mosaic law and stoning, I don't deal with it, really. God is the potter and man is his clay. This life is nothing to him. As I have been reading through the OT cover to cover, I see so many countless times that man is counted as nothing. Specifically regarding the laws calling for death, I don't believe the Jews actually followed those laws, which is why they didn't stone the adulteress in the first place. They were hypocrites.

Stoning a sinner is an act of hypocrisy which is why generally nobody did it save for once in a while, because they knew they deserved stoning as well.

When Jesus said the Jews couldn't stone the adulteress, how was He allowed to do so when the mosaic law was legitimate?

Jesus didn't disallow them from stoning her. In fact he gave them all the permission they needed. He simply allowed their conscience to convict them and they knew if they stoned her they would be hypocrites. This is really the reason, I believe, that they hadn't stoned her in the first place.

Because Jesus had no sin, he was not indebted to the law to stone anyone. The law was only for the lawless, not for the righteous. Example: if Jesus ever sacrificed a sheep as per the law's commandment, did he do it to cover his sin? No, because he had no sin to cover. So why would he do it? Probably just to blend in...

This example alone shows that the law is not for the righteous but for sinners.

[sheila]

also,an,in line with Seth's speaking of the hypocrisy  of those who are guilty under the law in exacting judgement on others

  [ with a cheating pair of scales.] I beleive Hosea 4;14 speaks the mind of God on that matter..that He not join them in their

hypocrisy.     I will not punish your daughters when they turn to prostitution,nor YOUR DAUGHTERS-IN_LAW WHEN

  THEY COMMIT ADULTERY,BECAUSE THE MEN THEMSELVES CONSORT WITH HARLOTS AND SACRIFICE WITH

SHRINE PROSTITUTES-A PEOPLE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL COME TO RUIN.

   the law is good if used lawfully...but used hypocritically..judge not,lest ye be judged[YOU MUST FORGIVE THOSE WHO

TRESSPASS AGAINST YOU OR THEFATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOU YOUR TRESSPASSES/

    thus  you who say...thus and thus..do you do these things.?   that evry mouth of the accusor be shut up before the Lord.

    Jesus had much to say to the hypocrites..that strained at a gnat and gulped down a camel.  the religious leaders where full of

hypocrisy...and even under occupation by the Roman authorities for there spiritual adultery at that very time,thus

you may see their hypocrisy this way Israel as the camel...and the adulteress as a gnat.

   the weightier matters of the Law..such as Justice/righteousness/mercy.....where dashed to the earth by their very hypocrisy.

       we  may observe the same things in our day..in regard to the laws in various governments....zealous to bring charges

  against individual men...write and make a multitude of laws[doctrines of men] to rule by..and corruption being present

  in the governments/police force/courts..resulting in abuses miscarriage of justice/unjust judges/bribes etc.

   the governmental leaders being involved in all sorts of corruption..while the USA has 5% of the world's population

and 25% of the worlds incarceration.   They appear zealous for the law..but themselves are full of hypocrisy and corruption

       let me remove the splinter[single sinner] when there is abeam[governmental rulers blind to their own hypocrisy]

[sheila]

  p.s. ww...and the way I see it..her Father[God] and her husband[Jesus/Groom] did judge her.....

[WhiteWings]

Of course it was mainly a setup to discredit Jesus.
If He said: "Let her go." they would accuse Him of breaking Moses' law.
If He said: "Stone her." He would break Roman law and would be arrested. John 18:31

Those two options weere the only two option Jesus' had when the Pharisees set a trap for Him. At least that's what they thought
Jesus' solution was twofold.
a] Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. --> That way He caused a dilemma because none of the audience was without sin. So casting stones would be a lie.
b] The person who casts the first stone sets execution in motion. The Roman soldiers would arrest that person for causing a riot and breaking Roman law. John 18:31


We all know Jesus followed the Law but "maximized compassion" so to speak. (Isa 42:3)
But did He really judge the woman? Or did He turn the table on the Pharisees in a very clever way?

[joeteekay]

Stephen was stoned as we find in Acts 7. The stoning was done in a fit of self righteous anger.
Those who stoned him were likely justifying their actions because of the Mosaic law.
It does seem to be a horrible way to die, not quite as bad as being buried alive, but still seems horrible.
I wonder if there were some specific rules that had to be followed for a stoning. Pharisees had all kinds of rules.
What size of stone? What position should be one being stoned be in, Lying down, in a ditch?
I get upset just thinking about it.

[WhiteWings]

Stephen was stoned as we find in Acts 7.

But wasn't that stoning done in secret? The woman was on Mt. Olive (John 8:2). A  very public and crowded place no doubts swarming with Roman soldiers.

[Seth]

We all know Jesus followed the Law but "maximized compassion" so to speak. (Isa 42:3)
But did He really judge the woman? Or did He turn the table on the Pharisees in a very clever way?

I don't know that. In fact, I believe that Jesus followed certain parts of it in order to blend in with society, but he was in no way obligated to follow the Law.

Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

I don't see leeway for compassion there. Rather I see that both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. If Christ were really indebted to follow the law, not only would he approve of their stoning him, he would have had to stone her as well. Here is why I believe he did not:

1 Tim 1
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

If Jesus does not fit the above description as a "manslayer" or a "liar" etc etc, then the Law was not for him. The whole point of the NT is that righteousness is not derived from the Law but from the Holy Spirit. That is the walk Jesus had. He was righteous through faith because he had the Spirit and walked by the Spirit.

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, and I believe he was born well before his resurrection. His resurrection only signified his birthing as a Son of God who lived by the Spirit. And because of that, he had no obligation to stone, and had all authority to forgive sin.

[WhiteWings]

We all know Jesus followed the Law but "maximized compassion" so to speak. (Isa 42:3)
But did He really judge the woman? Or did He turn the table on the Pharisees in a very clever way?

I don't know that.

He made some sort of judgement.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

1 Tim 1
9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

If Jesus does not fit the above description as a "manslayer" or a "liar" etc etc, then the Law was not for him.

The righteous man in those verses isn't about the judge (Jesus in that case) but about the accused.
According to what you write only unholy, profane, murderers, etc are allowed to judge. That makes we wonder how sinless you think the One in the heavenly judgement seat is...

[Seth]

He made some sort of judgement.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

The Law does not simply say to "judge" them. It said to KILL them. If they walked away, and Jesus was indebted to the Law, rather than forgive her, God had commanded to KILL her. Jesus would have had no authority to forgive sin, because Leviticus did not allow it.

The righteous man in those verses isn't about the judge (Jesus in that case) but about the accused. According to what you write only unholy, profane, murderers, etc are allowed to judge. That makes we wonder how sinless you think the One in the heavenly judgement seat is...

He was without sin. There are no degrees of sinlessness for Christ. He was without it. That's why Jesus Christ did not die for his self, but for others.

The righteous man in that verse is the one who walks by the Spirit. It's the same as this verse:

Galatians 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Jesus was not righteous because he followed the Law. We was righteous because he was "led of the Spirit."

[sheila]

....He made some sort of judgement..........has no-one condemned you?  No one sir,she said..........'then neither do I condemn you"

   John 12;47  as for the person who hears my words but does not keep them,I do not judge him.For I did not come to judge

the world but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;that very word

which I spoke will condemn him at the last day[judge not lest ye be judged/let he who is without sin cast the first stone]

   FOR I DID NOT SPEAK OF MY OWN ACCORD BUT THE FATHER WHO SENT ME COMmANDED ME WHAT TO SAY

AND HOW TO SAY IT.I KNOW HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. SO WHATEVER I SAY IS JUST WHAT

THEFATHER HAS TOLD ME TO SAY

   

[Seth]

FOR I DID NOT SPEAK OF MY OWN ACCORD BUT THE FATHER WHO SENT ME COMmANDED ME WHAT TO SAY

AND HOW TO SAY IT.I KNOW HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. SO WHATEVER I SAY IS JUST WHAT

THEFATHER HAS TOLD ME TO SAY

Yes, "if you have seen me, you have seen the father." If that's true, then "for he is Lord even of the Sabbath" applies to the whole Law. Jesus Christ was no more required to follow the Law of Moses than his Father.

[joeteekay]

Yes, "if you have seen me, you have seen the father." If that's true, then "for he is Lord even of the Sabbath" applies to the whole Law. Jesus Christ was no more required to follow the Law of Moses than his Father.

Very good point Seth

[sheila]

  the law was added because iniquity was increasing. the promised seed is a different matter.

  Romans ;14  For if those who live by law are heirs,faith has no value and the promise is worthless,because law bring wrath

   where there is no law there is no transgression.........

    the wrath of man does not accomplish the will of God.[judge not lest ye be judged]

    Jesus was born of a woman under the law/in bodily form as a man...servant[which does not remain in the household forever]

    Haagar/ slave/Ishamel  natural/ Jacob from Sarah/free woman/Jerusalem above

  but when finding himself in the form of man..did not consider himself 'equal'  Phpns 2;6-11..........Who being in very nature

God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of

a servant,being made in human likeness.And being found in appearance as a man,he humbled himself and become

obedient to death-even death on a cross.

    If He didn't fulfill the law as the blameless atonement Lamb..where would we be?   LOVE IS THE LAW"S FUFILLMENT

   Love owes nothing[is not a debtor ] but requires everything[laws fulfillment/laying down His life as atonement Lamb]


   

[Seth]

 :iagree:

Here is what I find interesting about that: Jesus Christ showed mercy before he atoned for her sin at the Cross. He forgave her before he died for her. The only way he could do that because he was fulfilling the Law from the moment Mary gave birth to him, and that is why the Law was not for him.

In other words, he is the firstfruit of this scripture:

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;

Jesus is the first one to walk these words out because his flesh was already dead. He was already crucified to his flesh. He was already the new creation, walking according to a new covenant with his Father.

The only thing left to do was give that covenant to everyone else, hence his physical death, because the Law is marriage contract to the old man. To be released from that contract, he knew he needed to cause some death in those who were under it, so they could be born again under a new contract.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep, He went to the cross and the Holy of Holies within Himself BEFORE HE EVER WENT TO THE LITERAL ONES.

What was seen, was for our example, and Him lowering Himself again to be as the body, and not the Head. The principle is, the body can only do what it "sees" (perceives either thru the soul or the Spirit) it's Head do. Therefore, the man/body had to die on the cross, ect., because the Spirit man/Head had already done it, in "secret", the ultimate purpose of going into one's "closet" and praying in secret.

And through this, all the heaven's declare (show openly) His glory, and NO MAN has any excuse (though they try to find one).

By this same principle, the hearts of the new spiritual priesthood is being revealed for all to see. This new priesthood was made to be one with the Head, via being baptized into His Spirit. When they the body (those in outer court, NOT baptized into His Spirit), SEE you hate your brother IN YOUR HEART, they go out and murder theirs. The body can only do what it sees it's Head do, and this is why hate and murder are the same sin. One hates (the head), but another murders (the body). Contrast this with one plants, but another waters.

And so, BY THE SAME MEASURE YOU METE OUT, by the same measure you will be judged. Condemn any that are blind in the outer court, and you condemn yourself, if you are part of the now Spiritual priesthood/Head, to the body. For if it was not in their hearts (the priesthood's), THEY (the body) WOULDN'T BE DOING IT IN THE NATURAL.

Thus, Jesus's rebuke for the reigning priesthood/Head of the body of His day, as hypocrites, whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones (laws not fulfilled spiritually, ie. not making them LIFE instead of death to the hearer), and told them to wash the inside of the cup (heart) as well as the outside. And until this happens, He will not drink of the new wine of the Kingdom out of any dirty cup. My  :2c:   Blessings....

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

John 1
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:   regarding that hypocrisy He said...'the love of God is not in you...or you would love me" and also...'why are ye

seeking to kill me?'...also...'Saul,Saul..why are you persecuting me?"  the Damscus expierence......that those who

say they see..may become blind..and the blind may see.

[Seth]

Yes, "if you have seen me, you have seen the father." If that's true, then "for he is Lord even of the Sabbath" applies to the whole Law. Jesus Christ was no more required to follow the Law of Moses than his Father.

Very good point Seth

:thumbsup:

John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

The American Constitution is for Americans. I am not subject to French, German or Italian Law. And if I am not American, the Constitution doesn't govern me either.

The Law of Moses is for those who are "beneath." It's a law for the lawless. It governs that realm. Jesus was not of that realm and therefore not subject to its Constitution, but that of a higher realm. When we have faith in Christ, our citizenship changes.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

The Law of the higher realm is not the Law of Moses, it's love itself.

[eaglesway]

:iagree:

Here is what I find interesting about that: Jesus Christ showed mercy before he atoned for her sin at the Cross. He forgave her before he died for her. The only way he could do that because he was fulfilling the Law from the moment Mary gave birth to him, and that is why the Law was not for him.

In other words, he is the firstfruit of this scripture:

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;

Jesus is the first one to walk these words out because his flesh was already dead. He was already crucified to his flesh. He was already the new creation, walking according to a new covenant with his Father.

The only thing left to do was give that covenant to everyone else, hence his physical death, because the Law is marriage contract to the old man. To be released from that contract, he knew he needed to cause some death in those who were under it, so they could be born again under a new contract.

Also, because all authority on heaven and earth was given to Him already.

Remember the parable of the stewards? "Surely they will honor my son", but they did not. Yet Jesus already had authority to forgive because He was the word made flesh, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself".

For me, "If you hav seen me you hav seen the Father" is an expression of Hebrews 1:1-3 "God who has spoken at different times in different ways spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets has spoken to us in these last days by His son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He created the worlds/eons. He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature and all things hold together by the word of His power."

The Law did not come before the Word, because all things were created through Him. The Law was only a shadow, and it was a shadow of Christ Himself, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and power of God.

Jesus did not have to fullfill the Law because He was the only true law by virtue of the divine nature, "For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him"..."He is the fulness of deity in bodily form". Jesus fulfilled the Law because IT WAS HIS NATURE and the Law was only a shallow reflection of the glory of His grace.

[ed]

The Bible is the most misused book on the planet.

If it is used to point to Jesus, it is used correctly.

Love this thread.

.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yep  :iagree: :thumbsup:

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: