When the Year of the Second Coming Will Be, the Millennial Shabbat of Year 6000

[marie glen]

Surprised no one mentioned this yet:

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Has - "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" - happened yet? Opinions?

Php 1:17  But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Php 1:18  What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

And the Gospel spoken of here, do you think it is the hell based, prosperity/legalistic Christianity that counts? Or the one on God's unfailing love, etc?

...the gospel of the kingdom :Chinscratch: I never thought about whether the pure - nothing but the truth - gospel.. or all the other versions too.. (And the first believers were always in expectation, were watching for and kept as one of the things foremost in, and occupying their thoughts was the coming of the Kingdom.)

Also, there's reference to judgment not going forth against a nation, I can't remember the details right now, but judgment was not coming forth yet because of the nation's "iniquity being not yet full" (and in Revelation 19 it sounds like two harvests - at the end of the age / at Jesus' return, the firstfruits/wheat and the grapes of wrath "outside the city"/Jerusalem, I assume nations assembling there to annihilate (finally, in their dreams, Israel,Rev.12:17;16:14-16) and of these it says "who's fruit is mature"... (Rev ch.19)

One of the very main explanations of the Gospel IMO;

I Cor. 15   Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you.. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,  and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures..

:iagree: :iagree:

Music lover, that same Greek word for "world" is used here:

Luke 2:1
1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Like Jabcat says, context helps to determine what the word means.

It is similar to aionios, in that it can mean different things depending on the context.

:thumbsup:


:Chinscratch: In Paul's day it went out to all the inhabited world, nations, of the day.. and the end of that age came in 70 a.d. And I've read all the christians left the city beforehand and none perished.. I wonder if the same was true for gnostic believers? I never wondered about that.. or if there were some who believed the prophecies/end had happened already..

Yes, context.
Also, translation.  For example:
[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Checking the Greek on this verse, you will find that "world" is translated from the same Greek word used for "age" (aiōn).  Kind of makes a difference on how we look at it.

I am not going to be debating Preterism here, it's just that the forum is having so much written about end time dates, and speculation about the "end of the world" and arguments about this jubilee or that festival, I just thought I'd throw out that there are some (of us) that look at it from a different perspective.  I know that many people think it is crazy, but one thing I like about this forum is that people here do their own studying, and I guarantee that no two of us will come to the same conclusions about everything.  Our common denominator is that we agree we have a loving God "who will have all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." ...and that's good enough for me!

Amen to both of those points..

(I think I'm the one who brought up the festivals, which I probably do a lot, and not about dates or even the end, but how i believe they are the pattern of Jesus' two advents, and once understood, I believe is strong (additional) support/proof? of UR.

[marie glen]

Colossians 1
5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace

NIV here has it growing as a verb, unlike the KJV which puts it in past tense.

TPT 23if indeed you continue to advance in faith, assured of a firm foundation to grow upon. Never be shaken from the hope of the gospel you have believed in. And this is the glorious news I preach all over the world.

Here it is present tense in preach. Again, not past tense like the KJV. Do you think Paul preached to everyone who ever lived at that time? What about those who haven't heard today?

Romans 10
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

He is quoting Psalm 19:4 here. When the Psalm was written, do you think it could have been fulfilled? Same here. I highly doubt it was fulfilled here, considering some in the world still have not heard. Unless our Lord is ignorant and ignored a bunch of the lost when prophesying that.

Sometimes I think circular reasoning is exactly what's needed to see the true form of something.. Since it's a prophecy by Jesus, and He cannot err, it must mean if He was referring to the end of the age (70a.d.) He meant the inhabited then 'civilized' world -  the gospel of Jesus' death and resurrection on one's behalf - but if He meant the end of these ages of man and of man's rule, I wonder just how many nations have had the gospel presented to them - NOT in order to set a date :laughing7:

So it sounds like, to me, Paul meant the civilized world of his day.. and he said the gospel had been preached to every creature.. but Paul isn't infallible. Could have been generalizing..? Or figured by then.. surely? It does seem like the news spread somewhat like a wildfire, and most of society seemed aware of the believers, thought of, however, as a cult(?)

But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:

[Patinak]

But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:

Amen, Glenda!

[marie glen]

I kind of hate to bring this thread up again.. but i just had to add this, just for general information to file away if ever needed. Daniel 12:11,12 - Daniel said "from the time they take away, stop or remove the perpetual sacrifice" - most believe this indicates a 3rd temple and sacrifices.. and when the sacrifices are stopped [and yes, i know this prophecy was fulfilled before also] - but I think yes, stopping literal sacrifices, maybe so, put perhaps sooner if it is the removal or taking away of the 'Wailing Wall' where perpetual prayers are offered, because Jesus said of the buildings (complex?) not one stone would remain upon another -

But whatever it is, "from the time it's taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up - I figure 666 & Amplified Bible says it in the margin - "will be 1,290 days, and happy is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later" (or that is to 1,335 days; most folks believe these are years, but that's a long time for one to wait and come to).

So.. That's (imo) the counting. When whatever it is, is taken away.. one can count the days then.. to the setting up of 666 (touted as a leap in consciousness/evolution?) and one could count days to the return of Jesus.

Imo.. of course.
     :Peace2: :girlheart:

[MusicLover123]

Alright, so on the Gospel preached to the world, Ray had a bit of a different description of it. Here is a partial "summary of what he said:

"The good news Gospel: God is reproducing himself with Sons and Daughters that have to endure to the end in this fleshly life. God is calling out some now, and out of the called He is selecting a relative few (called and chosen) to reign in His Kingdom. The chosen are being judged now before the great World Judgement occurs where the rest of humanity will be judged and saved..."

If it is this specific description of The Gospel that is to be preached, then most have not heard this.

If it is the "believe in Christ death, burial and Resurrection" then most have heard.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: ...I think of it like fruit. And I know the bible talks about "God waiting for the harvest of the Earth" and Revelation talks of two in Rev.19.. plus all the spiritual simile, etc. concerning harvest(s).. But not only the good harvest, the wheat.. those who meet Him at His coming - all believers, those alive and those passed on/having died.

But the one of Rev, that the world's wrongdoings also have to come to fruit.

Also "the end" may start - to God's reckoning, long before we reckon, or notice. (As a matter of fact we could think of 'the end' - which precedes Jesus' return, as beginning with the disobedience in Eden.)

I'm not sure how to say this..

It's my opinion, if we understand Bible prophecy, we will be so much better at "watching". For instance the seals in chapter six are encoded. You know how? The whole seal is described. From their beginning, to what they are at their full progression or maturity (ride/gallop) at 'the end'.

Which obscured it (the vision) because things are told here so early on, basically, at the beginning of the vision.

Now there's method to my madness here. As I want to point something out. There's things which have to occur before His return. And I begin to think God's Word is even more literal than we (or I) have thought. [Literal blood of Christ on the Mercy Seat is way more literal than I ever would have expected, for instance. (Other thread..) And should that be only human imagination, I was very surprised at just how literally the Spring feasts were fulfilled by His 1st advent.

Keeping in mind how the seals are described, try reading them again. Whatever seal six is was, I believe it is also 7:1. This new fire/wind unleashed, is paused. I believe we are still in that pause. That 'the 'end' has not actually begun to escalate until this pause is broken. Tho I believe limited, initially. It's one of the things which seems very plain and obvious to me. Of course, I could be way off base. But of course I don't think so. :laughing7:

Remember how Mt.24 says "Immediately after the tribulation (troubles) of those days.. they shall see.. the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world.."

Of course you'll never believe it unless you see it for yourself (at least that's the way I am).
:Peace2:

[onlytruth]

Small footnote
The star that appeared at the birth of Christ showed up again in august
There are no coincidences
Blessings

[marie glen]

Small footnote
The star that appeared at the birth of Christ showed up again in august
There are no coincidences
Blessings

    :thumbsup: So good of the Father to send signs in the heavens, and on Earth.. Just in case He needs to get our attention.. But I get the sense we are to be always expecting.. always waiting.. also it keeps our mind on the kingdom/heavenly things.. (Of course humans are very prone to extremes.. and everything has at least two opposing extremes.. so those who obsess over His return and set dates, etc. and excluding excitement over the rest of His Word.. which makes others go to the other extreme of leaning toward wanting to dismiss eschatology altogether(?) lol, to me it doesn’t matter when He comes, just that He is coming and will “subdue ALL things to Himself”! Exactly as 1Cor.15:22-28 says. :banana: :dsunny:

...but so many signs in the heavens and on Earth.. yet we can’t forget Noah spent a hundred years building the ark.. though of course they lived a lot longer in those days..

[CST]

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Probably 20-30 years after Jesus's statement, Paul was making the following statements:

[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

[Col 1:5-6, 23 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth: ... 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[Rom 10:16-18 KJV] 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Are Jesus and Paul talking about the same thing?  I think so.  I think Paul was writing about the fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy.

Thanks Pat, for sharing this and sharing Gary's article on the topic. I agree with both. It's been a recent belief of mine that has been building for a while, and it finally has all come together, but it is hard to lay it all out in one concise post, and people are quick to call the idea crazy without exploring it for themselves. I compare it to UR, once you hear it the knee jerk reaction is to reject it, but it makes so many pieces come together, if you continue to look into it prayerfully.

I had to take a break for a while. I will be back here and there I think, but the break helped to clear my thoughts, pray, and also to focus on my immediate life. The internet is good but can suck us away from living and loving.

Thanks Pat and CST and for wanting me back, it means a lot to me. Sometimes we don't realize our connections are meaningful until they are severed and I think that was an important learning lesson for me as well.

Welcome back, GIL. It was said you felt driven away by us.

Yes, context.
Also, translation.  For example:
[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Checking the Greek on this verse, you will find that "world" is translated from the same Greek word used for "age" (aiōn).  Kind of makes a difference on how we look at it.

I am not going to be debating Preterism here, it's just that the forum is having so much written about end time dates, and speculation about the "end of the world" and arguments about this jubilee or that festival, I just thought I'd throw out that there are some (of us) that look at it from a different perspective.  I know that many people think it is crazy, but one thing I like about this forum is that people here do their own studying, and I guarantee that no two of us will come to the same conclusions about everything.  Our common denominator is that we agree we have a loving God "who will have all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." ...and that's good enough for me!

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

The biggest argument against Preterism is that on the evidence no one seems to have believed it until the C16th. If the early church who Jesus spoke to tended not to believe it even though they are supposed to have lived through it (and didn't notice), why should we?

Colossians 1
5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace

NIV here has it growing as a verb, unlike the KJV which puts it in past tense.

TPT 23if indeed you continue to advance in faith, assured of a firm foundation to grow upon. Never be shaken from the hope of the gospel you have believed in. And this is the glorious news I preach all over the world.

Here it is present tense in preach. Again, not past tense like the KJV. Do you think Paul preached to everyone who ever lived at that time? What about those who haven't heard today?

Romans 10
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."

He is quoting Psalm 19:4 here. When the Psalm was written, do you think it could have been fulfilled? Same here. I highly doubt it was fulfilled here, considering some in the world still have not heard. Unless our Lord is ignorant and ignored a bunch of the lost when prophesying that.

Sometimes I think circular reasoning is exactly what's needed to see the true form of something.. Since it's a prophecy by Jesus, and He cannot err, it must mean if He was referring to the end of the age (70a.d.) He meant the inhabited then 'civilized' world -  the gospel of Jesus' death and resurrection on one's behalf - but if He meant the end of these ages of man and of man's rule, I wonder just how many nations have had the gospel presented to them - NOT in order to set a date :laughing7:

So it sounds like, to me, Paul meant the civilized world of his day.. and he said the gospel had been preached to every creature.. but Paul isn't infallible. Could have been generalizing..? Or figured by then.. surely? It does seem like the news spread somewhat like a wildfire, and most of society seemed aware of the believers, thought of, however, as a cult(?)

But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:

Do you even know what circular reasoning is? It's generally not considered useful for anything because it pr-concludes the truth of its  own bias. Err, doesn't the suggestion that Paul isn't infallible call into question the inerrancy of scripture? And yes, Jesus can't err, but we can, very easily, and thus misrepresent and indeed mistranslate what He said.

I kind of hate to bring this thread up again.. but i just had to add this, just for general information to file away if ever needed. Daniel 12:11,12 - Daniel said "from the time they take away, stop or remove the perpetual sacrifice" - most believe this indicates a 3rd temple and sacrifices.. and when the sacrifices are stopped [and yes, i know this prophecy was fulfilled before also] - but I think yes, stopping literal sacrifices, maybe so, put perhaps sooner if it is the removal or taking away of the 'Wailing Wall' where perpetual prayers are offered, because Jesus said of the buildings (complex?) not one stone would remain upon another -

But whatever it is, "from the time it's taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up - I figure 666 & Amplified Bible says it in the margin - "will be 1,290 days, and happy is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later" (or that is to 1,335 days; most folks believe these are years, but that's a long time for one to wait and come to).

So.. That's (imo) the counting. When whatever it is, is taken away.. one can count the days then.. to the setting up of 666 (touted as a leap in consciousness/evolution?) and one could count days to the return of Jesus.

Imo.. of course.
     :Peace2: :girlheart:

No, now you sound like an Endtimer. A lot of American Fundamentalist Endtimers hate Muslims and are racist against them. The very much support the cause of Israel so they can bulldoze the Dome of The Rock and get to work rebuilding the Temple so this part of prophecy can come to pass. They're not interested in peace in Israel or the world, Islam is simply the enemy to be routed.

They don't care that when David asked to build the temple God said 'No'! He told David that there had been much bloodshed in the land during his day and little peace so it would not be appropriate for David to build the temple but He would establish David's son and bring peace to the land so that it would then be appropriate for him to build the temple. But according to instruction it took seven years, IIRC.

Do you see these Endtimers taking seven years to rebuild the temple when their desire is to rush to the end so they can be raptured away? Do you think they care that the massive conflict in Israel over things like this makes it inappropriate to build the temple at present?  No, if you're going to build God's House under that sort of spirit I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Devil rocks up there. Because if you believe what the Bible says about such matters, God sure isn't going to.

Alright, so on the Gospel preached to the world, Ray had a bit of a different description of it. Here is a partial "summary of what he said:

"The good news Gospel: God is reproducing himself with Sons and Daughters that have to endure to the end in this fleshly life. God is calling out some now, and out of the called He is selecting a relative few (called and chosen) to reign in His Kingdom. The chosen are being judged now before the great World Judgement occurs where the rest of humanity will be judged and saved..."

If it is this specific description of The Gospel that is to be preached, then most have not heard this.

If it is the "believe in Christ death, burial and Resurrection" then most have heard.

'Most' is still not 'all'. There are still societies on the planet that drive us away or kill us as soon as we try to go to them, getting the Gospel to them (either form) is quite tricky and the people who try to establish contact these days are less and less interested in promoting the Gospel anyway.

:thumbsup: ...I think of it like fruit. And I know the bible talks about "God waiting for the harvest of the Earth" and Revelation talks of two in Rev.19.. plus all the spiritual simile, etc. concerning harvest(s).. But not only the good harvest, the wheat.. those who meet Him at His coming - all believers, those alive and those passed on/having died.

But the one of Rev, that the world's wrongdoings also have to come to fruit.

Also "the end" may start - to God's reckoning, long before we reckon, or notice. (As a matter of fact we could think of 'the end' - which precedes Jesus' return, as beginning with the disobedience in Eden.)

I'm not sure how to say this..

It's my opinion, if we understand Bible prophecy, we will be so much better at "watching". For instance the seals in chapter six are encoded. You know how? The whole seal is described. From their beginning, to what they are at their full progression or maturity (ride/gallop) at 'the end'.

Which obscured it (the vision) because things are told here so early on, basically, at the beginning of the vision.

Now there's method to my madness here. As I want to point something out. There's things which have to occur before His return. And I begin to think God's Word is even more literal than we (or I) have thought. [Literal blood of Christ on the Mercy Seat is way more literal than I ever would have expected, for instance. (Other thread..) And should that be only human imagination, I was very surprised at just how literally the Spring feasts were fulfilled by His 1st advent.

Keeping in mind how the seals are described, try reading them again. Whatever seal six is was, I believe it is also 7:1. This new fire/wind unleashed, is paused. I believe we are still in that pause. That 'the 'end' has not actually begun to escalate until this pause is broken. Tho I believe limited, initially. It's one of the things which seems very plain and obvious to me. Of course, I could be way off base. But of course I don't think so. :laughing7:

Remember how Mt.24 says "Immediately after the tribulation (troubles) of those days.. they shall see.. the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world.."

Of course you'll never believe it unless you see it for yourself (at least that's the way I am).
:Peace2:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, the sixth seal and its consequences runs from 6:12 - 7:17 so obviously includes, but is not limited to 7:1. The opening of the Seventh Seal then follows beginning at 8:1. But it's not a pause really, God is sealing the 144000 and it probably doesn't take that long unless the 144000 crosses multitudes of generations which is plausible in some sense but then a lot of them won't be alive to refuse the mark of the beast because they won't live long enough in their natural life to see it rise (remember the beast from the sea comes under the sign of the seventh and last trumpet too).

[Patinak]

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.

[marie glen]

I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
   :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
   :Peace2:

:goodpost:

[CST]

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.

It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.

I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
   :Peace2:

I actually don't believe you're an Endtimer because what Endtimers believe is not what you believe is taught in the Bible. Endtimers is a term, as I understand, for a large number of ET Evangelists that believe it is their God given business to help God rush along to the end so they can be raptured into heaven and He can start the first stage of the journey to Eternal Punishment for everyone else because they deserve no better. It's an abhorrent concept and one I know you don't believe because you believe in UR and, yes, it does make me angry which may be unreasonable because I shouldn't really get angry but it's the sort of service to God that actually does the biggest disservice to God.

I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.

[Patinak]

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.

It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.

Agreed.

[MusicLover123]

I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.

If MG was an "Endtimer" according to your definition, would you be angry with her?

Just an honest question, not trying to give harsh judgment on you.

[GodIsLove]

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.

It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.

Agreed.

My opinion as to why it can be brought up but not pursued further:

People passing through will see Tentmaker as talking a lot about the end times and interpreting revelation and Daniel etc as happening in our lifetime or in the future.

On balance, I believe it is good to show the diverse views so they don't get a one-sided impression of what it mean to be a Christian Univeralist.

I put my views out there for that reason, for balance and for those passing though. If someone is interested in exploring preterism with an open mind they can do so on their own and not necessarily here, but then, again on balance, should end times discussions also be less of a focus on Tentmaker so we can focus on the Victorious Gospel instead?

And CST, to answer your comment earlier in this thread in response to mine about taking a break, yes I did initially leave because of the tone here.  I don't want to feel that I am arguing doctrine so I'm trying my best to just place my views out there here and there and not get caught up in it too much. But in my short break I found it was nice to focus on the real world and my own connection to God and friends/family.

While for the most part people are kind, there's definitely an air of everyone wanting to be teachers and everyone feeling pretty authoritative about their own views.

[CST]

I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.

If MG was an "Endtimer" according to your definition, would you be angry with her?

Just an honest question, not trying to give harsh judgment on you.

More to the point, if MG was a Pharisee, would it be OK to be angry with her?

I mean that's the real question here, when it is an isn't OK to get angry and where you can direct that anger without sinning when you do. The Bible teaches that God is slow to anger yet when He gets angry His response is often very violent, or at least it seems that way. However angry I get I can't direct my anger that way fortunately, some characters in the Bible seem to direct their anger in very questionable ways and the fact they seem to get results suggests that God supports them indulging their anger even when that seems questionable given what actually happens.

Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.

I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.

It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.

Agreed.

My opinion as to why it can be brought up but not pursued further:

People passing through will see Tentmaker as talking a lot about the end times and interpreting revelation and Daniel etc as happening in our lifetime or in the future.

On balance, I believe it is good to show the diverse views so they don't get a one-sided impression of what it mean to be a Christian Univeralist.

I put my views out there for that reason, for balance and for those passing though. If someone is interested in exploring preterism with an open mind they can do so on their own and not necessarily here, but then, again on balance, should end times discussions also be less of a focus on Tentmaker so we can focus on the Victorious Gospel instead?

And CST, to answer your comment earlier in this thread in response to mine about taking a break, yes I did initially leave because of the tone here.  I don't want to feel that I am arguing doctrine so I'm trying my best to just place my views out there here and there and not get caught up in it too much. But in my short break I found it was nice to focus on the real world and my own connection to God and friends/family.

While for the most part people are kind, there's definitely an air of everyone wanting to be teachers and everyone feeling pretty authoritative about their own views.

But if it isn't pursued only the first view posted will be what is seem. When people are passionate about things, which they tend to be on matters of religious belief they can find it very hard not to defend those views when they're challenged. They feel like they'll come across as lacking conviction which does present the view very well.

Unfortunately, that's also exactly the sort of problem that causes the sort of attitudes that are making you uncomfortable to read. People tend to defend to defend their views as if they're absolutely certain about them because there's an impression nothing less is convincing. Jesus certainly defended His points with that degree of conviction.

Fortunately, Jesus was able to avoid falling into the trap most of us fall into of taken attacks on our belief system personally and thus responding personally in return. Which is, sadly, what drives you away because you are wiser than that. But glad you're back now.