Believe necessary for salvation?

[saintwalee]

I am witnessing about Universal Reconciliation.

They are insistent that in order to be saved, we must "believe". That if one does not believe, one would not be saved and suffer ET. Basic TOB theology.

I realize that we must be believing/trusting in Jesus to "have eternal life".

What I am struggling with is that the "belief" or "Faith" being talked about is "our" faith, that "we" believe, thereby putting into effect salvation.

My contention is that we can do nothing of ourselves, that Jesus Christ is our total savior. Even when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, Jesus said that was not from him (Peter), but that the heavenly Father had revealed that to him.

I'm pretty sure they don't subscribe to Calvanism, not so sure about free will. It seems that they recognize that they were sinners and needed God's salvation. In that, they "invited" Jesus into their hearts.

This is were it gets murky. As most Christians I think fall into this camp of "inviting" Jesus into their heart. It appears that we are making the decision.

But then again, Jesus said;Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So I have two questions:
1.) Is our believing, or opening the door considered a work? Or are we actually in a state of submission allowing our Father in Heaven to pronounce through us that Jesus Christ is Lord?
2.) Is Jesus always knocking at the door, or just when it is the time of his decision?

At some point, there has to be a connection between the saved and the savior, how is that done? (ok, 3rd question)

I cherish your feedback.




Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[eaglesway]

There are some pretty intense discussions about this stuff :o) Different points of view for sure. To me, there is a decision involved in "believing". Has God chosen all who believe? Yes. Has God given the grace to make that decision? Of course. Then, How does God punish those who do not make a decision to "believe"(for me this means to believe Jesus' words and follow His instruction)? Paul basicly says, "Who are you to question God's judgment?".

I believe God has chosen the elect and given them grace to obey, but I also believe many are called and few are chosen.

What it boils down to(for me) is this.

We are exhorted in many places to do certain things and act and think in certain ways. We are presented with consequences for failing to do so, so- God desires us to walk in what we know(we dont kno everything) and walk with Him in the moment(we cant be in the past present and future like Him)
and let Him worry about everything else. :o)

[jabcat]

(edit - typing while you were John :)

I believe it like this;  the Holy Spirit draws, God gives faith to believe/receive the free gift.  When it's His time for us, we "do" something, but it's all brought about and empowered by Him.   :2c:

[eaglesway]

Yes, I believe that entirely. "By grace through faith and that not of yourselves lest any man should boast".

But yet Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, called us to respond. So we pray, God provide me with grace to do as you will. He is giving us the grace to pray for grace as well, LOL. I also think tho, that we have to be careful about living in the theory of grace, not the reality of knowing Him. :o)

[WhiteWings]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

If an unbeliever dies and sees Father and Son it's not faith anymore but knowledge.

What I am struggling with is that the "belief" or "Faith" being talked about is "our" faith, that "we" believe, thereby putting into effect salvation.

My contention is that we can do nothing of ourselves, that Jesus Christ is our total savior. Even when Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, Jesus said that was not from him (Peter), but that the heavenly Father had revealed that to him.

Faith is a gift and the One who gives it decides the "giving schedule"

1Cor 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is were it gets murky. As most Christians I think fall into this camp of "inviting" Jesus into their heart. It appears that we are making the decision.

But who made you invite?

But then again, Jesus said;Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That verse is only about the overcomers/elect/bride it was teh very first step of a long bethrotel. The bride always had the choice not to open the door and the groom will usually left forever. She could also stop the bethrotel any time she wanted.

I think it's quite important to understand it's a wedding custom. For many ETs you are the bride/open the door and you go to heaven. All others get dumped into hell.
In reality the groom marries the one that answers the knocks on the door. The bride. But the whole family and quite often half the town and many friends were the wedding guests. If all who are not the bride end up in hell, who are the guests. Yeah the angels but those are from the groom's side of the family. But how about the bride's family?
Just something to consider....



I think none of the questions you asked are really relevant. Or at least far less important than "What does being saved mean?" Or "What are those people saved from?"


http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/msg122137/#msg122137

[saintwalee]

Thank you all for the feedback.

I think Jabcat's response, in short, sums up the concensus of the replies.

I believe it like this;  the Holy Spirit draws, God gives faith to believe/receive the free gift.  When it's His time for us, we "do" something, but it's all brought about and empowered by Him.   :2c:

It appears that God draws all men, or calls all men unto Him.
Joh_12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
But few are chosen; I think of the apostles and certain men throughout church history, such as Gary A., in his testimony that the Holy Spirit came upon him suddenly.

But then again, Jesus said;Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That verse is only about the overcomers/elect/bride it was teh very first step of a long bethrotel. The bride always had the choice not to open the door and the groom will usually left forever. She could also stop the bethrotel any time she wanted.

In the context of Revelation, this is addressed to the churches, however, the statement does say; "...if any man hear my voice..". So moo :wink1:, it is addressing everyone.

As I was writing this, I was drawn to these verses from Hebrews (YLT)
Heb 10:22 may we draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having the hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having the body bathed with pure water;
Heb 10:38  and `the righteous by faith shall live,' and `if he may draw back, My soul hath no pleasure in him,'
Heb 10:39  and we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of those believing to a preserving of soul.

From the replies and most definitely from the scriptures, it appears that we are drawn to God by Faith, both His to Us and from that which He gives us. I think that faith, as any gift, needs to be received by the gifted. The gift is always there, Jesus is always knocking; though we may open the door and close it again. As Hebrews says, "may we draw near" and "draw back" and "but of those believing". It appears to be an ongoing process of sometimes living for the flesh and sometimes living for the Spirit, a growing process where our Spiritual body grows as our Fleshly body dies. I'm reminded of Israel, always complaining and wanting to go back to Egypt, back into bondage, but Moses kept leading them away, drawing all of Israel with him.

And in that process, the Holy Spirit leads us unto righteousness, away from sin and death.

Believing - it is a process.

Again, thanks for all the replies. It has greatly helped in my understanding and become food to share with others.  :ty:

[WhiteWings]

But then again, Jesus said;Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That verse is only about the overcomers/elect/bride it was teh very first step of a long bethrotel. The bride always had the choice not to open the door and the groom will usually left forever. She could also stop the bethrotel any time she wanted.

In the context of Revelation, this is addressed to the churches, however, the statement does say; "...if any man hear my voice..". So moo :wink1:, it is addressing everyone.

The bride is part of the church. Church=body=Adam. Bride=rib=Eve (hidden)
:2c:

[eaglesway]

I like Eph 1:9-11; Col 1:16-21; Romans 8:18-25; and 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 John 2:1,2; 2 Tim 2:3,4; Phil 2:10,1 ; Rev 21:5 and 5:13; Romans 11:32-36; Acts 3:18-20

I am sure you are familiar, but when sharing UR with anyone who respects the scriptures I share the above verses(more or less in that order) with very little personal commentary. It seems to have a very powerful effect, because if they believe the Word is solid, they cannot discount the sum of those parts very easily.

I also wanted to mention that Romans 10 says,

6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This, IMO, involves the "bowing of the knee" spoken of in Phil 2:10,11 "every knee shall bow, whether on earth or in heaven or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

If we confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord(bow the knee) and believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead(if every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then everyone will stand before the resurrected Christ and believe God has raised Him) we shall be saved.

As regards the adversaries, ETs believe that they will bow the knee and confess and then get thrown into hell. I believe they will bow the knee and confess as they are coming clean out of the lake of fire, where they baked in the light and love of God until they had an epiphany of Jesus Savior and Lord(appearing, epiphanea)

Just speaking for myself, it doesnt matter if one believes in free will or predestination in whatever extremes or blends in which these doctrines exist- and it never has, as regards UR because......

whether one believes God's love is sufficiently glorious to win every free will to Himself or whether one believes every single soul if predetermined in every aspect of their lives and destiny....

The verses I listed above make it clear that the sum total of all creation will be reconciled and restored.

While some people seem to think that understanding UR depends on a persons position on Calvinist versus Armenian types of concepts about the will- I don't think it matters at all and I have won believers from both ends and the middle of that spectrum to the understanding of UR.

[Seth]

So I have two questions:
1.) Is our believing, or opening the door considered a work? Or are we actually in a state of submission allowing our Father in Heaven to pronounce through us that Jesus Christ is Lord?

I think God gives the faith, and then it is manifest through his people.

2.) Is Jesus always knocking at the door, or just when it is the time of his decision?

I think it's similar to how Jesus was always speaking in parables but it was not given to some to know the mysteries of the kingdom. Yes, I believe he is always knocking, but that it is only given to some to open the door in this time.

[saintwalee]

Is the Lord knocking at our door through our tribulations?

The first thing (I think) Jesus taught the multitudes:
Mat 5:2  And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Mat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4  Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6  Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Paul expounds on this:
Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

As apposed to the Wealthy:
Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

All of this would make sense, especially in the light of the parable of the sower and the seeds. For the seed that was planted in fertile ground was the only seed that produced fruit. And we know that good soil must be broken/plowed (tribulation), weeded (removal of sin) and nourished/fertilized (by the word of God).

So it could be that tribulation is a wonderful thing, as it appears that is the Lord's way to bring us to him.

Psa 34:18  The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

That being said, may the Lord bless you and not make you wealthy! :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

[ed]

Romans 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I remember a teaching on the "faith of Jesus Christ" from long ago.  It is not our faith that brings us to God, it is the Faith that Jesus Christ that accomplishes salvation once and for all.  Jesus Christ is the Faithful one, who brings all to the place reconciliation.

When reading the word "faith" in the NT it is interesting to ask, what faith, who's faith, ect.

Through Jesus we are able to have have faith.  Through the accomplished work of the true and faithful, we are given the benefit, when we believe in what He and He alone could accomplish.

I'll see if I can find the teaching.  As with all sectarian teaching, it makes strongly one point, but can be lacking in others.

“We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we HAVE BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST, that we might be justified by THE FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Gal. 2:15 16)

The Faith of Jesus Christ, the faithful one, is what justified us.  I am not justified because of my faith.
That would be my works, my ability, and I could easily lose it.  I simply believe in what Jesus has accomplished, and keeps for me.

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST might be given to THEM THAT BELIEVE.” (Gal. 3:22)

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through THE FAITH OF CHRIST, the righteousness which is of God BY FAITH:” (Phil. 3:9)

My right standing with God is through the faith of one man, the faithful man, Jesus Christ.  I believe it and incorporate this into my life, through believing what He has accomplished for me.

“For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make THE FAITH OF GOD without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;...” (Romans 3:3-4a)

THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST
by K. R. Blades
http://www.enjoythebible.org/studies/jesus1.html

That article above is the closest thing to the teaching that I remember.






.

[marie glen]

I think it's quite important to understand it's a wedding custom. For many ETs you are the bride/open the door and you go to heaven. All others get dumped into hell.
In reality the groom marries the one that answers the knocks on the door. The bride. But the whole family and quite often half the town and many friends were the wedding guests. If all who are not the bride end up in hell, who are the guests. Yeah the angels but those are from the groom's side of the family. But how about the bride's family?
Just something to consider....

:banana:  :dsunny: Absolutely!! (imo)

[marie glen]

Believing - it is a process.

:Chinscratch: /  :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:

[marie glen]

This, IMO, involves the "bowing of the knee" spoken of in Phil 2:10,11 "every knee shall bow, whether on earth or in heaven or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

If we confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord(bow the knee) and believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead we shall be saved. (if every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then everyone will stand before the resurrected Christ and believe God has raised Him)

Amen! et believers think UR is salvation w/o "believing"...!!

"if every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then everyone will stand before the resurrected Christ and believe God has raised Him" because bending the knee is part and parcel of "believing" :banana: :banana:

The verses I listed above make it clear that the sum total of all creation will be reconciled and restored.

While some people seem to think that understanding UR depends on a persons position on Calvinist versus Armenian types of concepts about the will- I don't think it matters at all and I have won believers from both ends and the middle of that spectrum to the understanding of UR.