I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?
Just curious.
Not me, no way!!! :happy3: :HeartThrob:
CHB
I couldn't really say. The only Universalists I've ever known are on this board!
I'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked? :mshock:
Paul
That might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.
I don't know if I'd be shocked, but I would be interested in hearing what it was that turned them away. It's a great question either way.
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible. :sigh:
Greetings,
Since learning of UR maybe i have bounced around annihilationism, but NO, eternal torment in orthodox's hell fire is out of the question.
peace
chuckt
QuoteI'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked?
Yeah. But I'd like to face the truth no matter what it is.
QuoteThat might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.
Well... I got banned from CARM after 4-5 posts. UR is a banned subject.
Quote from: B_T on January 12, 2009, 03:15:59 PM
QuoteI'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked?
Yeah. But I'd like to face the truth no matter what it is.
QuoteThat might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.
Well... I got banned from CARM after 4-5 posts. UR is a banned subject.
they seem pretty intolerant.
Quote from: B_T on January 11, 2009, 02:02:11 PM
I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?
Just curious.
Of course, there are plenty of folks like that that never fully understood the teaching of Scripture and held to it for sentimental reasons, but then allowed too many questions to build up on them without having prayerfully gotten their questions answered Scripture by Scripture. One of the guys that used to be around here that's since rejected the Universal Restoration was Arcticmonster2003 who probably still has a few answers or bits of nonsense on a few threads around here. He went into the KJV only kinda belief, for the most part.
Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2009, 02:45:35 PM
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible. :sigh:
Unfortunately, during that time period on TM, he very well may have had a point. I may be old-fashioned, but I still think our witness is important (I blow it from time to time, but I still think it's important). Thankfully we now have a "respect for scripture" guideline, while still being open to a lot of different people's understandings and interpretations :thumbsup:. (And GOOD JOB everyone for following that SO WELL! :high5:)
Quote from: Sarah on January 12, 2009, 02:45:35 PM
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible. :sigh:
I know that "it's never as simple as that," but sorta seems to me like he was needing to be a part of a pack, and found what he was needing elsewhere with the ET crowd. I've had my membership deleted at other forums [that were supposed to acknowledge the truth of UR while exploring other things] by the administrators of those forums because my respect for Scripture was too high. If every universalist started toting Korans, it wouldn't change me any, either about the Bible or the truth of the Universal Restoration through Jesus Christ. I would stand alone on the truth if necessary, since it sorta seems like I'm going to have to anyway on things I won't get into on the boards.
i met a former christian in a forum who believed in universalism when he was a christian, he lost his christian faith but still believes in a kind of universalism. but he grew up with the teaching of ET, again you see how this teaching destroys the faith of many.
annihilation makes a lot of sense for me in a way, but no one will convince me of ET
Quote from: sven on January 15, 2009, 05:35:49 PM
i met a former christian in a forum who believed in universalism when he was a christian, he lost his christian faith but still believes in a kind of universalism. but he grew up with the teaching of ET, again you see how this teaching destroys the faith of many.
annihilation makes a lot of sense for me in a way, but no one will convince me of ET
I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both? Did God so love the whole world that he sent his only begotten son for the salvation of 10 percent of those created by God? Whether the 90% are in eternal torment, or destroyed all together . . .neither one seems to come close to illuminating the love of the Father for his children.
Imagine an earthly Father coming to his child and says "Honey, I've seen that you've gotten yourself so far over your head in trouble that there's no escape for you. But I want you to know I've taken care of everything. All you have to do is give the word and everything I did will go into effect. If you don't give the word . . . I'll have to beat you every chance I get for the rest of your days (ET) . .or . . .if you don't give the word, I'll make you disappear as if you never existed (annihilation).
In either scenereo, it just doesn't line up with the character of the Father at all.
Because there "is" such a contrast from ET/Annihilation to ALL being saved, many create defenses and go on the offense at the same time. One attack is the thinking that sinners go to heaven with no accountability or retribution. But think about it . . .how bad could the lake of fire be? Well . . .look at what Christ went through in order to give us another option. So even though I do believe in the end, we'll all be "one" and alive and well . . .this does not take away from the severity of the lake of fire experience for those not protected in the blood.
It's just for those who pursue Christ . . .when you "seek" you "will" find what you seek. And "when" you find Christ . .there is just no need to continue to emphasize the judgment when you've found your redemption. People aren't drawn to you because you have a good grasp on hell . . .they are drawn to you because there is a light of joy emitting from you that gives them warmth and hope. It's not because of what you know . . .it's because of who you've become.
Quote from: Nathan on January 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM
I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both?
In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 15, 2009, 06:26:14 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM
I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both?
In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever.
Oh, I don't disagree with that end of it . .but I just don't see God annihilating his own children . . . as the first Adam was just as much a son of God as was the second Adam as far as sonship goes . . .then if it were about annihilation, the first Adam would have been destroyed and God would have just started over, no?
Quote from: Nathan on January 15, 2009, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 15, 2009, 06:26:14 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM
I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both?
In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever.
Oh, I don't disagree with that end of it . .but I just don't see God annihilating his own children . . . as the first Adam was just as much a son of God as was the second Adam as far as sonship goes . . .then if it were about annihilation, the first Adam would have been destroyed and God would have just started over, no?
I agree with that and the verse that tells is all die in adam and all live in christ (paraphrasing) is seen differently based on claims of various contextual issues that does not allow "all" to apply to everyone. Just recently I met someone whi I discussed that with and the main context brought was the false teaching that Enoch and Elijah did not die. If that is used as the basis then ALL does not have to mean everyone since not everyone dies.
Several years ago I was on a forum where at least one man claimed to have been a universalist for years and then changed to ET. I could hardly believe it.
When I was in a Church of Christ, and some of the members of my S.S. class I still dearly love had a discussion about hell once. We all (yep even me) believed there was a 'hell' but we were discussing how we would deal with the sorrow if any of our loved ones were in hell while we were in heaven. One man claimed that we must forget this life and those we loved because otherwise there would be sorrow and tears.
I didn't say anything but it did get me thinking. How could we forget this life? What would the purpose have been, especially if we don't remember any of it. Why wouldn't God just make us unable to sin in the first place if we don't know how we got to be there in the first place?
And it is true. If one of my parents or children or even a good friend were suffereing for eternity, or even annihilated, how could my happiness be complete? God should be our first love, I agree, but if I could have love and concern for someone, imperfect as I am, how could He zap them out of existence or torment them endlessly and be happy, and not know we would never be truly happy while anyone (yeah even Hitler doesn't deserve ENDLESS torment for finite atrocities) writhes in pain or will never enjoy a moment again? I could never go back to believing in ET or even annihilation
ScarletWren;
I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.
But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.
Quote from: Doc on January 15, 2009, 09:37:36 PM
ScarletWren;
I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.
But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.
Intersting you use that for your analogy . .. it's been my quest to return to the headwaters of the one river flowing out of the original garden . . .return to "my" origin before the curse . .and in order to do that, I must turn around in my river and swim back "upstream" to where it's source flows from. Going back to lay eggs and reproduce . .die in the flesh so that "his" generation can manifest.
Quote from: Nathan on January 16, 2009, 01:31:25 AM
Quote from: Doc on January 15, 2009, 09:37:36 PM
ScarletWren;
I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.
But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.
Intersting you use that for your analogy . .. it's been my quest to return to the headwaters of the one river flowing out of the original garden . . .return to "my" origin before the curse . .and in order to do that, I must turn around in my river and swim back "upstream" to where it's source flows from. Going back to lay eggs and reproduce . .die in the flesh so that "his" generation can manifest.
:happygrin: I love this board...
willieH: Hi brother B_T! :hithere:
Quote from: B_T on January 11, 2009, 02:02:11 PM
I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?
Just curious.
Actually we recently had a guy here who went @ first by DUSTPROPHET, then by DUSTY, and eventually by
PEACETROLL... which stated that he was a "universalist" for twenty years or so, and then changed his mind...
And now believes there are muliple human races, and that NOT all men originate IN ADAM. :crywipe:
(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
PeacE...
...willieH :love1:
We swim against the tide for sure. And I've never liked going against the crowd, being 'different', but I just can't do it that way anymore.
Hi all ,
It is God who establishes the boundaries
that no man can cross
for me anyways
I have always hated the Us and Them mentality
But these things must be
Jesus is the Prince of Peace
Yet He come to send fire on the earth and a Sword with Division
Jesus is also a stumbling block and Rock of Offense
and at some point cannot get passed that even I
Yes even I and used to look at everyone else and think they had
been offended by the Word and not me mentality lol
now I find it not so strange just how the Lord Jesus Christ
turns us around to where we see the Center is always Him
and we will not get through Him , by Him nor around Him
until we realize that it is By Him revealing Himself to us
we can see anything at all , pertaining to His will/ desire /testament
and kingdom
we do not struggle against others near as much as we think we do ,
it was always Him that we cannot surpass or move
or by pass till we see Him face to face and that is what always
changes us and our course Till we are IN HIM and so well Hid in Him
and am not near as wise as I thought I was and being wrong /decieved
which is a good thing being humbled by Him and finally
being teachable is one of the good gifts
from above the Father of Lights / Knowledge
is doing for His own children (born of Spirit and Truth/thyWord )
and what ever place they are at
God knows and God is good that way
to continue to bear them up into Himself
we Serve and have an Awesome God /Father who loves us very much
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: ScarletWren on January 16, 2009, 06:56:57 AM
We swim against the tide for sure. And I've never liked going against the crowd, being 'different', but I just can't do it that way anymore.
I have found that when I "start" going against the crowd in one area, that leads into many other subjects where I'm against the crowd as well. But for me, the parable of four soils comes into play here . . .the one where the seed falls on the hardened path and is quickly snatched up by birds . . .the hardened path is made by those who tread on this same ground . . .over and over . .and many of them have traveled it . . .sounds like traditions of men to me.
Quotewe do not struggle against others near as much as we think we do ,
it was always Him that we cannot surpass or move
or by pass till we see Him face to face and that is what always
changes us and our course Till we are IN HIM and so well Hid in Him
Beautiful Rosered!! So true and humbling.
Nathan,
It is funny you mention the path being 'traditions of men'. I have also been told (by the Holy Spirit) that the stones in the ground that prevent the root from going deep is also 'traditions of men'. Can't you hear God saying,"Break up your fallow ground!"
I find anymore, the laboring I experience the most is the difficulty in planting seed in a field of one who's field is like cement. Time does seem to make a difference, but when someone is not only "used" to being in a traditional mindset, but they are also convinced any other approach is just wrong . . .you find yourself laboring . . . plowing . . .just to plant a little thing.
As you commented, the idea of the rocky soil being traditions of men may very well be just another phase of the hardened path. . .it's not a hardened path anymore, but it's not good productive soil either. They take what you have . . one of the most frustrating things I experience is having people take the truths of Life and "include" them into the rest of their belief system. That's a great picture of rocky soil. They mix the good with the rigid and they may appear to be understanding and excited over spiritual matters . . .but when these things get tested through circumstances in their lives, it's not long before it becomes evident, the roots in life just didn't go that deep. You can't mix spirit with flesh . . .you end up with rocky soil that can't support any longevity when the testing comes.
Quote from: Sarah on January 16, 2009, 04:30:10 PM
Quotewe do not struggle against others near as much as we think we do ,
it was always Him that we cannot surpass or move
or by pass till we see Him face to face and that is what always
changes us and our course Till we are IN HIM and so well Hid in Him
Beautiful Rosered!! So true and humbling.
Eph 6:
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Legoman
Quote from: legoman on January 16, 2009, 05:09:41 PM
Quote from: Sarah on January 16, 2009, 04:30:10 PM
Quotewe do not struggle against others near as much as we think we do ,
it was always Him that we cannot surpass or move
or by pass till we see Him face to face and that is what always
changes us and our course Till we are IN HIM and so well Hid in Him
Beautiful Rosered!! So true and humbling.
Eph 6:
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Legoman
Hi Legoman ,
I would say that those things are in us that we are stuggling against Him /Word and Spirit of God with ?
Jesus Is the rock of offense and what we stumble over
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold,
I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious:
but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 1Pe 2:8 And
a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. Jesus even said in your law I say you are
gods that wickedness in high places and princpalities is the ego and mini god complex , thinking we have it all figured out , whenin fact we know nothing as we ought ?
we are conformed by God , not ourselves and that is a painful process
in deed
When Jesus said make the tree good and the fruit good
or make it corrupt what was He speaking of ?
:HeartThrob:
Quoteone of the most frustrating things I experience is having people take the truths of Life and "include" them into the rest of their belief system. That's a great picture of rocky soil.
Absolutely. When it was first revealed to me that hell wasn't what I thought it was, I received it with joy. But then the longer I sat on it, the root began to bump into my own traditional beliefs; lake of fire, the unpardonable, the rapture, Lucifer, etc., etc. At one point I almost abandendent the revelation, but then the Lord showed me distictly that I was the the stony soil, and not to let the stones of men's traditions destroy what He birthed in me.
Exactly right Sarah . . .I think many of us would like to think of ourselves as that fertile soil when in truth, we all have a lot of fragmented stones in us . . bits and pieces of the law permeated through us, more so than we're willing to admit. But the beauty is, once a seed is planted in the soil . . .it does find a way to break the surface of the ground and continues to constantly reach toward the sun as the light brings things in it into maturity and fruit begins to manifest. Don't cut the stalk down due to the stones in the soil, let the stones be removed to "make way" for the stalk of truth to grow.
Quote from: Nathan on January 19, 2009, 08:04:49 PM
Exactly right Sarah . . .I think many of us would like to think of ourselves as that fertile soil when in truth, we all have a lot of fragmented stones in us . . bits and pieces of the law permeated through us, more so than we're willing to admit. But the beauty is, once a seed is planted in the soil . . .it does find a way to break the surface of the ground and continues to constantly reach toward the sun as the light brings things in it into maturity and fruit begins to manifest. Don't cut the stalk down due to the stones in the soil, let the stones be removed to "make way" for the stalk of truth to grow.
or maybe even turn these
stones to Bread [life] :thumbsup: bread comes after harvest and preparation
A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey;
Deu 8:9 A land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness, thou shalt not lack any [thing] in it; a land whose stones [are] iron, and out of whose hills thou mayest dig brass.
Deu 8:10 When thou hast
eaten and art full, then thou shalt bless the LORD thy God for the good land which he hath given thee :HeartThrob:
QuoteDon't cut the stalk down due to the stones in the soil, let the stones be removed to "make way" for the stalk of truth to grow.
Yes, I made that choice awhile ago. It is an earth shaking event but worth it.