Hi Everybody,
I'm a youth leader, worship leader, Sunday school teacher, and board member at an Assemblies of God church, so even as a "hopeful universalist" I have a lot to lose! (Ha!) Just wondering if there are any others here like me.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Confronted
:cloud9: While I was in church I attended both Assemblies of God and Church of God churches.....I'm sure there are others here......
I was in the Assemblies of God for 11 years.
Hi there. Grew up in the Assemblies as a pastor's kid...many stories to tell, many blessings and many failures in my life that God has used to bring me here today. I believe I understand a lot about where you're coming from...you may want to check out J. Preston Eby if you haven't already...believe he and/or some of his friends had Assemblies connections, and he's a very deep, wonderful writer in UR. Just remember this...at the end of the Bible, last chapter of Revelation, after the Lake of Fire...the tree of life stands for the healing of the nations, and there shall be no more curse! God's got a great big plan...He created everything, He's working all according to His will, and I believe He will fix it all...Jesus will hand all to the Father, and God will be All In All...God's blessing! Feel free to PM me anytime. James.
Quote from: Confronted on March 11, 2008, 10:27:52 PM
Hi Everybody,
I'm a youth leader, worship leader, Sunday school teacher, and board member at an Assemblies of God church, so even as a "hopeful universalist" I have a lot to lose! (Ha!) Just wondering if there are any others here like me.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Confronted
Yes, you have tons to lose. Just tell us where you work and we'll turn you in to the 'thought police' and help the process along :mshock:
Seriously though, I was a worship leader in ET churches for 30 years as a 'convinced' universalist, and I came out of the closet last Dec. and quit my 20 year tenure as a worship leader.
My wife was born and raised AG, and is having a rough time with my stance, even though she already knew and exclaimed "You've
never believed in hell, have you?"
Of course my response is "Yes, I believe in 'the grave/Sheol', in fact that cemetery we passed by on the way home
proves hell is real!"
Welcome to the tent, where freedom from religious dogma is a way of life, but the presence of the living God abounds.
blessings,
- Byron
Byron said--"My wife was born and raised AG, and is having a rough time with my stance."
Will be praying for your wife, Byron.
The last church I attended before I finally gave up on organized religion was an AoG. It was a little group that was just starting up. They were a nice group of people, but I realized that I just couldn't do the church thing anymore and started to study on my own.
I have done some studies on church and what it is. If you want, I'll try to find them for you and send the addresses. Let me know.
oh yes A/G as a child (was not saved until 20 though). After saved went to A/G for 7 years..yes well aware of A/G
I'm with you, brother. I've been a believer for over 20 years: 9 years in the Baptist, about 8 years in an Evangelical church, and now for the last year, in an AG church. Only a few months ago, I discovered UR, and am becoming more confident every day that UR is the "big picture" of God's plan for the universe. My life has truely changed for the better, at least on the inside. No longer do I live in constant fear of losing my salvation, or fearing that I was never saved in the first place. It's so ironic that the very doctrines that I no longer believe in (hell, immortal soul, free will, age of accountability, etc) are the very ones that the AG church emphasizes. My soul is tormented as a hear what I consider to be destructive lies from the pulpit.
It's tempting to say something, but I dare not say anything to anyone in the church. I express myself here and I have written several articles which are now online. My reasons for staying in the church are selfish (if you consider putting my kids needs first selfish). They attend the church school and one of the conditions of enrollment is that the parents be members. The only other Christian school in the area costs three times as much and I just can't afford it.
As for you brother, just praise the Lord that you have discovered a hope that most of you AG brothers just don't know, and ask the Lord to guide you as to whether or not to share it.
I resigned from the AG last fall. Here is an article that describes my beliefs.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html (http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html)
I currently have a pastor in a church with similar worship, and he accepts me with my views.
I am interested in your view of my article linked above.
I'm not "affiliated," as they call it, for about 40 years; but, I was born into an Ass. of God -- oops, gotta be careful how you abbreviate -- I was born into an A.G. Pastors home. His 3 brothers were also A.G. Pastors. My mom's dad was an A.G. minister too, from the beginning of the century traveling in tent meetings and praying for the sick. We counted at least 39 churches that he'd started in the mid-west that were still going when he died in '63. I played with John Ashcroft's brother George in the hotel at a Council meeting when we were about 10. My uncle, Herman, was on their board of 13 for many years. His name, Herman Rohde, was inside the cover of the "Pentecostal Evangel" then.
When I experienced the Holy Spirit I began, for the first time, to read the Bible through, thrilled at what I was finding. I came into the kingdom of God with whatever I'd already been taught, not knowing how much I had to unlearn. I also fellowshipped with all sorts of believers from all kinds of denominations and independent works. I saw Jesus in them, though I realized there was disagreement on many matters. While I didn't dispense with the supremacy of Truth, I recognized a fundamental unity that was spiritual and it was more important than mental facts. Off and on for all my Christian walk I have been persecuted for holding to the unity of the Church, among other things, though insisting one commits the sin of sectarianism is not as important to them as it used to be.
In the list of, "The first principles of the oracles of God" (Heb 512) also called, "The principles of the doctrine of Christ" (Heb 61) the last to be mentioned is, "Eternal judgment" which may better be described as, "The setting right of things according to the age in which they occur." It is essential "baby talk" and not advanced teaching to understand what God intends for all mankind; that, "The end of the Lord is mercy." Though some eccentric and unreliable teachers hold to Christian Universalism, the most spiritual and deepest into the Bible I've found understood God as "the Savior of all mankind." Next to last in the list is "resurrection," which the A.G. people have largely replaced with "The Rapture" of racial dispensationalism. Searching for verses to substantiate Rapture doctrine and not finding them was what first severed me from the A.G., as well as many others swept along with the herds.
For a while I felt it important to suppress differences, to, "Be at peace with all men as much as in you lies." But as I've gotten older it is much more important to please God. If we can make a difference, let's find out how and go for it. God is on our side! What is the right thing to do with the truth we've been given differs from person to person and from one situation to another. It isn't about telling others what to do anyway. This leads to another area God has exploded with light for me. Let me share it with you the way I did at another post (with some emendations)...
"The Church (Eclessia) is always only one. As for Institutional Christianity's divisions, probably the most important reason is God did it out of mercy for the rest of us. He brought the division at the tower of Babel which is the origin of "Babylon." The tower was a lot of sweaty work. Instead of "living stones" fitly framed they built with bricks conformed to their mold. It would have possibly trampled down everyone and everything but for the intervention of God.
"Really, the body of Christ is only one. It is living men inhabited and and animated by the living God. The divisions since the Reformation of the 1500's are partly due to men trying to build on Teachers who are inadequate to support "The House for the Presence." Today many still have a sermon every time they meet, which is a practice not supported by the Biblical text, specially not from the same paid man. This is rather than, "Being built on the foundation of Apostles and Prophets" who have been formed into a more complete expression of Christ who is the Image and Glory of God. These are not bosses over lesser ministries. That is the view of pulpit centric "gentile authority" bureaucrats. His servants connect us to Christ our head and secure and enlarge that connection that we may all move by His Spirit, every member participating.
"All that Jesus is and does is in us because He is in us. Our becoming available to Him is another way of describing maturation. This is some of why it's so easy to believe in the actual events of virgin birth or resurrection in history, because we see this type of thing repeated in our own lives. What God did in Christ cannot be undone. His self revelation in us is the basis for our functioning together as His body without human headship or any other intermediaries.
"The reason the Church has no impact on the world is because the Church has no impact on the Church. I went to church but the Church wasn't on the program. We're spectators for a few professionals on stage. Their concern is to service us and ours to be served. If we were used to not waiting for someone else to do it or to tell us when and what we can do, but instead used to doing it ourselves, how impacted would the world be? How would the culture around us be affected if rather than teachers with a room full of students that never graduate we were fathers with a room full of apostles all functioning under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit? If every member participation was how we met we'd all be practiced in expressing Christ Who dwells within.
"Even if someone has crossed over into having been regenerated by the Spirit of God now indwelling, when that one comes to be a "Christian" they "go to church" (a phrase occurring nowhere in the Bible.) Being novices they tend to know little of the options, often going back to whatever they may have been raised in as a child. Almost anywhere they go they will be taught by what is done, "You don't have anything. You can't do anything. We have trained professionals to function here."
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1Co 12:12) Conceive of two or more together with the ascended head present. Now think of the veil on this many membered Christ being lifted as what to expect when He "comes to be present" (ie, "parousia") in like manner as He left. Coming forth out of glory clouds He will appear unto those He has chosen, just as before. In the period of a generation He will bring out a people under His own authority who will be taught of Him. Worldwide, they will act like and talk like Jesus (Lk 6:40.) He will "seize them as His own possession" (ie, "harpazo" 1 Th 4:17.) So we are coming unto the promised perfect man, defined as "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Ep 4:13) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them . . . This is the first resurrection." (Rv 20:4-5) They will become the determining factor for what occurs among the sons of men.
Quote from: Confronted on March 11, 2008, 10:27:52 PM
I'm a youth leader, worship leader, Sunday school teacher, and board member at an Assemblies of God church, so even as a "hopeful universalist" I have a lot to lose! (Ha!) Just wondering if there are any others here like me.
"Youth pastor" didn't exist until a class called "teenagers" was created in society in the 1930's and 1940's.
"Worship Team" was something that orginated in Calvary Chapel in 1965, copying rock concerts.
"The Sunday School" was started in 1780 by Robert Raikes from Britain. Originally it was not religious, but basic education for poor children.
"Bored Member" is why, given the present rate of change, by 2010 we expect the majority of Christians in the USA to meet in their homes, as they already do worldwide.
A lot to lose?
:cloud9: Amen and Amen to your previous post! :thumbsup:
Reformer,
Very refreshing and edifying for one who still believes in that old dusty Book. LOL
John
QuoteI'm a youth leader, worship leader, Sunday school teacher, and board member at an Assemblies of God church, so even as a "hopeful universalist" I have a lot to lose! (Ha!) Just wondering if there are any others here like me.
It's so funny how we identify ourselves...........Let's see I've had some of them......student, soloist, wife, mother(of six, of course), pastor's wife, minister of music, ordained minister, divorced, grandma(I like this one out of a little 4 year olds mouth), or how about these, loved, adored, respected,----rejected, despised, disdained, old, cast off........I have been all of these and more..........but of all names and affiliations I long to find my identity in are "In Him, Faithful servant, Son, Beloved of my Father", tested, OVERCOMER IN CHRIST.
Now 17 years later, no part of that which I was once affiliated with holds any pull......In fact I am saddened by my part of pointing my children to that lifestyle...........Of the 6, two families have followed into the freedom that comes from being "out of" what we now call "the business" they are prospering "outside the camp". All my children have been exploited for their talents. And I did quite a bit of my own exploiting of them during the years we were in "ministry". The youngest 3 girls have been mesmerized by the bright lights of the Ass. of God at 3 different A of G here in our city. Their every day life swallowed up by the needs they supply for the religious machine.........Each church trying to outdo the other with a new CD for sale, of course.......with "our worship" live from ........blah,blah,blah
Each church a break off from the original dispute which has never really been forgiven......competing for the same people, new churches, new programs all
A oF G....LOL
I now believe it is necessary for them to see it all up close and personal.........kind of their own bootcamp......with drill sargents and all.......I am now relaxing in the process of letting them learn about religion..... it is hard to watch........as one church group after another unravels. My daughters and their husbands pick their sides in the fray, only to watch it happen again. ....and when they get through and find the bondage in it all......we will be here.......outside the camp...waiting for them.
So what once was an all consuming family business and lifestyle for me.......has given way to true fellowship amongst ourselves.......and friends....the presence of the Lord is always in the midst of us when we come together and works in each individual life without hinderance and interference.........I have not missed it since the Lord called me out 6 years ago......
Confronted, I pray you come out from among them.....those who have only old dry bread and dirty water to offer. There is richness and depth of spirit away from the maddening crowd with all of it's frenzy and mandatory meetings......away from all titles and distractions you will find him who your heart longs............in the quiet place........you will find rest for your weary heart.
Love,
Joian
P.S.
James, doesn't get much better than what you share.....you are such a blessing......
Joian, your words resonated with me.
I have known first hand the weariness and stress of having "every day life swallowed up by the needs they supply for the religious machine......."
Fortunately my children were very young then and I took them with me to most activities. They remember very little of it. I hope.
I was the office secretary at the A/G and one day the pastor came in fuming. He had finally had enough and told me to make a phone call to get a company to change our mailing address. This company kept abbreviating it on our mail "New Franklin Ass of God" ... right there on the U.S. mail. I bet the mailman got a big kick out of it.
QuoteThis company kept abbreviating it on our mail "New Franklin Ass of God" ... right there on the U.S. mail. I bet the mailman got a big kick out of it.
God knows the beginning from the end and that is just one more proof, he has a sense of humor..........LOL
Thanks for the laugh, gr8wuf.
Love,
Joian
Well, actually, I attended an AOG church for a little while. I originally went to the church, looking for and hoping to get a good laugh, but found the people to be rather friendly, not exactly the "holy roller" type that I had anticipated. Sure, they believed in speaking in tongues and being slain by the spirit, but it wasn't in a madhouse fashion, unlike an experience I had a year before with a revival center, which was more like a circus. I would eventually drift away from the church however after a couple of months, only to end up in a cult a few months later, where I would spend the next 5 years.
Chuck
:sigh: That doesn't sound fun......