Am I the bride of Christ? or the body of Christ?

[jbertonbounds]

Been scanning trough Martin Zender's stuff. 
He says Israel is the bride of the Christ, and we (gentiles, I guess) are part of the body of the Christ.
The circumcision and the uncircumicison.
He says that there are two gospels.
The gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumicison.
I have never heard this teaching.
I have always been taught that we are his body and his bride.
That it doesn't matter whether you are Jew or Gentile, circumcised or not (figuratively speaking).
Martin's view seems to make more sense, but... :dontknow:

What do you believe? :Chinscratch:

[redhotmagma]

I don't agree.  Paul speaks of making the one new man(body), out of jew and gentile.  a mystery

IMO we are both the body and the bride.  And the two shall become one flesh(body), this is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church(bride). 

We are the bride in the sense that we are the place the seed is planted, and that seed is christ.  We travail in labor to birth christ, which is the man child.  When we have died in labor like Rachel did on the road to the house of bread (bethlehem), the son of my right hand (benjamin) is born. 

IMO all these word pictures overlap and are not either/ or but... like.

The kingdom of heaven is like a field
The kingodm of heaven is like a mustard seed
The kingdom of heaven is like....

:2c:

[Lazarus Short]

No entity can be both the body and the bride of the Christ.   :2c:  That means marrying your own body, and that is absurd.   :2c:  Also, confusing, and God is not a God of confusion. 

All believers make up the Body of Christ - that's easy.  What's not so easy is determining who/what the Bride is.  I am writing (slowly) a book on the subject, and when I began it, I did not know who/what the Bride was.  I believe now, having read all through the OT, God's wives Israel and Judah, God's love for His wife/wives, His hurt at their unfaithfulness and His promises to take them back in the future, that the Bride is Israel, all 12 or 13 tribes of it, but not all members of those tribes - only the overcoming members of Israel will make up the Bride.   :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

[rosered]

are we forgetting that  we are both male and  female   in Adam ?    and so will it be so  in the New Aadm  Which Is Christ Jesus both the male and female      are joined to His Body   two are ONE FLESH


what God has joined together no man can  separate /divide


Mar 10:6   But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 


Mar 10:7   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 


Mar 10:8   And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 


Mar 10:9   What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


  Under the old covanant law of moses   , this old man of sin whom the law of   moses    has put to death     , that you were joined to and now that  he is dead  you are allowed by law   by the body of Christ to marry Him   and bring fouth godly offspring to GOD



Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

  In my opinion , I do believe its   some of Israel   and is some of  ALL whom ever God has chosen to Join as ONE FLESH       
Please note in Rev 21    the Bride is not only    the   twelve gates are    ,  Israel     and the twelve   foundation   stones  are the 12 apostles     In My Fathers House are many mansions 

   sion = the NEW JERUSALEM !      visions and teachings of double peace

[lomarah]

Rose that was very eye opening, thank you!!   :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

No entity can be both the body and the bride of the Christ.   :2c:  That means marrying your own body, and that is absurd.   :2c:  Also, confusing, and God is not a God of confusion. 

All believers make up the Body of Christ - that's easy.  What's not so easy is determining who/what the Bride is.  I am writing (slowly) a book on the subject, and when I began it, I did not know who/what the Bride was.  I believe now, having read all through the OT, God's wives Israel and Judah, God's love for His wife/wives, His hurt at their unfaithfulness and His promises to take them back in the future, that the Bride is Israel, all 12 or 13 tribes of it, but not all members of those tribes - only the overcoming members of Israel will make up the Bride.   :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

Israel was both the sons of God (Jesus, "Does it not say in your own law 'You are all Elohyim/mighty ones and sone of the Most High?) and the betrothed of God(Hosea).

IMO God is speaking to different aspects of the assembly of the ecclesia(called out ones) from the beginning till now. Was it not Enoch who said, "The Lord comes with 10,000s 0f 10,000s of His  saints........"- I would say Abel(identified by Jesus as the first martyr) and Enoch and Noah and many others unwritten but who lived and walked with God are both sons(be they male or female) and also at the same time- "betrothed" or of the bride. Hosea is very clear on this IMO.

We are seeing "facets" of an immense and beautiful diadem that belongs to those who overcome in every age. I think it is possible that the Bride is made up of the "betrothed" faithful among the whole ecclesia(all believers) and that the sons, seen coming out of the Bride in Rev 12 and Ephesians 4 are just reflections from deeper within the diadem of the wisdom of God. I see no opposition within the respective "aspects"- body(all believers/members), bride(betrothed/dedicated) and sons(mighty ones/overcomers in this age or even throughout all the ages since the beginning.

I think this is what rosered is getting at as well- rosered, do I read you right? :o)

As we grow in the true knowledge of God(IMO) we became aware first that we are believers. As we walk in faith we grow in love and devotion to the one who is saving us by grace and we become "betrothed". As we continue in "betrothal" fathfulness blooms into sonship responsibilities; the "keys to the kingdom" are given us as we prove worthy stewards.

As Paul said, " I am in LABOR WITH YOU AGAIN UNTIL CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU". And " We were among you as nursing mothers", and "I will betroth you to Christ as spotless virgins" (paraphrases from memory-if someone requires I will look up the citations).

Jesus, IMO, crowns this(pun) by saying, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem- how I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks- but you would not have it".

Hebrews 12 is a picture of this, to me, "You have not come to a mountain burning with fire(Hagar)...... but you have come to Mt. Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem(bride- a dwelling place for the general assembly). You have come to 1,000's upon 1000's of angels in joyful assembly, to the ecclesia of the firstborn registered in heaven(the "great assembly-all whose names are written in the Lambs bookof life). You have come to God the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect(overcomers/mature sons) & to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than the blood of Abel.

As I see it God speaks to us to become children from one facet of thie great "multifacetd" diadem of His wisdom. To "be not as children" and to become 'sons" from another facet; to be as "betrothed virgins to one husband" in another, to be "one new man" in another..... all aspects, elements, facets of who Jesus is becoming in us as we approach the "all in all".

[ded2daworld]

IMO, both. My wife is my bride and she is one with my body. That is how a marriage works. _ "the 2 shall become one" :Peace2:

[rosered]

  :thumbsup:

  Yes, you sure did Bro John ,understand me correctly 

  and a much better job of clarifying   , thanks so much  !

I have always struggled with   trying to  write  with   clarity  :HeartThrob:   

Paul even said in the body or out of the body He did not know when speaking to  this man  taken to the third heaven , what   exactly was he speaking of ?
  In the Body  of Christ is those chosen before the foundation  of the world  [Lamb to me is more than  one but as many membered   as Jesus Christ was  , is and will be   , but those predestined   to be Gods Lamb  , and called by the name Jesus Christ , just as His Body is made up of more than one member , multi   as the Whole Book is written of Him  , it was His Spirit moving in many as   the beginning as well as the end

  And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 
Rev 19:6   And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 
Rev 19:7   Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  


Rev 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  


Rev 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 


Rev 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 
witness of  Jesus was  also from the beginning

[jbertonbounds]

No entity can be both the body and the bride of the Christ.   :2c:  That means marrying your own body, and that is absurd.   :2c:  Also, confusing, and God is not a God of confusion. 

All believers make up the Body of Christ - that's easy.  What's not so easy is determining who/what the Bride is.  I am writing (slowly) a book on the subject, and when I began it, I did not know who/what the Bride was.  I believe now, having read all through the OT, God's wives Israel and Judah, God's love for His wife/wives, His hurt at their unfaithfulness and His promises to take them back in the future, that the Bride is Israel, all 12 or 13 tribes of it, but not all members of those tribes - only the overcoming members of Israel will make up the Bride.   :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

That seems to be what Martin Zender teaches.

[jbertonbounds]

IMO, both. My wife is my bride and she is one with my body. That is how a marriage works. _ "the 2 shall become one" :Peace2:

Good point. :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Been scanning trough Martin Zender's stuff. 
He says Israel is the bride of the Christ, and we (gentiles, I guess) are part of the body of the Christ.
The circumcision and the uncircumicison.
He says that there are two gospels.
The gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumicison.
I have never heard this teaching.
I have always been taught that we are his body and his bride.
That is doesn't matter whether you are Jew or Gentile, circumcised or not (figuratively speaking).
Martin's view seems to make more sense, but... :dontknow:

What do you believe? :Chinscratch:

Another good example of how we are (IMO) both, is Ephesians where Paul speaks of how a husband who loves his wife, "loves his own body", following on what ded2daworld added. As the Bride, we are the body, as the body, we are the Bride. WHen Paul spoke in his epeist;es, "I have betrothed you unto one husband even to Christ"   I dont think he was speaking to only a portion of the churches. In 1 corinthians 12-14 he CLEARLY defines believers as the body, as well as in Eph 1

Eph 1 say "He is head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all".

Later in Ephesians Paul tells us Christ is head of the church, His bride  The husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body- here we have bride and body united in Paul's teaching.

2 Corinthians 2:2 I am jealous with a godly jealousy for I have betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you a pure virgin.

Ephesians 5:27 that He might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle, but holy and blameless..........no one ever hated his own flesh but lovs it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of it. Body and Bride- right there I think.

[jbertonbounds]

Another good example of how we are (IMO) both, is Ephesians where Paul speaks of how a husband who loves his wife, "loves his own body", following on what ded2daworld added. As the Bride, we are the body, as the body, we are the Bride. WHen Paul spoke in his epeist;es, "I have betrothed you unto one husband even to Christ"   I dont think he was speaking to only a portion of the churches. In 1 corinthians 12-14 he CLEARLY defines believers as the body, as well as in Eph 1

Eph 1 say "He is head over all things to the church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all".

Later in Ephesians Paul tells us Christ is head of the church, His bride  The husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body- here we have bride and body united in Paul's teaching.

2 Corinthians 2:2 I am jealous with a godly jealousy for I have betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you a pure virgin.

Ephesians 5:27 that He might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle, but holy and blameless..........no one ever hated his own flesh but lovs it and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of it. Body and Bride- right there I think.

Definitely, and since Paul was a missionary to the Gentiles, then he was calling them "the bride." :thumbsup:

[jbertonbounds]

This Martin Zender has some good points, but it seems like to me that he carries things a little too far sometimes.  He readily speaks of how evil the modern churches are.  Does he forget that, like some of the churches in Asia spoken of in the Revelation, they have their good points?

[jabcat]

Agreed.  I believe he also says, and some people parrot, "the church has everything/it all wrong".  I strongly disagree with that. Discernment...  :2c: 

[jbertonbounds]

Agreed.  I believe he also says, and some people parrot, "the church has everything/it all wrong".  I strongly disagree with that. Discernment...  :2c:

That's exactly what I was thinking. :thumbsup:

There's no way I would ever say that.  I have seen many efforts by the folks in the ET churches to which I have belonged do many good things for others, often in foreign countries, at their own expense!  One cannot honestly say they have it all wrong.  Just a few major points of doctrine.  We must always remember that God is a just God, and he has created everything, including the status quo.  That means that he intended for the eyes of the ET religionists to be veiled to universal salvation.  But God also sees their good deeds and their care for others.  I believe this pleases our Father in Heaven, and that he will overlook more than we give him credit for.  I don't believe that having distorted doctrines negates their good deeds.  I once stated many years ago (before I was enlightened to UR), "I believe that one day we are going to find out that God has a lot more grace than we give him credit for."  That did not set well with the ET with whom I shared it, but I believe it all the more now.  One day all shall see his mercy and grace, his salvation.  Awesome! :dsunny:

[rosered]

Agreed.  I believe he also says, and some people parrot, "the church has everything/it all wrong".  I strongly disagree with that. Discernment...  :2c:

:thumbsup:    I also   agree with you Jab  in that !
  I could not expect everyone to agree with me either .  there are some very , very precious folks in churches    and I could not in good conscience   say   God is  not saving by His grace ???HE SURE IS !!!  you can only be accountable for you  know and its God who gives all  knowledge in the first place  ,[both trees are His creation and for His glory ]  God is very aware of the intents of  all hearts , its would be pure vanity and pride on my part saying I knew  :sigh:

  Tree of Life that place  and  realm  would be where we all come to the same unity in Faith , and I just dont see that  happening in this  realm and lifetime [age ]

But I do believe where two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them !   and they do agree    , I thank God for that    much  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

:thumbsup:    I also   agree with you Jab  in that !
  I could not expect everyone to agree with me either .  there are some very , very precious folks in churches    and I could not in good conscience   say   God is  not saving by His grace ???HE SURE IS !!!  you can only be accountable for you  know and its God who gives all  knowledge in the first place  ,[both trees are His creation and for His glory ]  God is very aware of the intents of  all hearts , its would be pure vanity and pride on my part saying I knew  :sigh:

  Tree of Life that place  and  realm  would be where we all come to the same unity in Faith , and I just dont see that  happening in this  realm and lifetime [age ]

But I do believe where two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them !   and they do agree    , I thank God for that    much  :HeartThrob:

Such a good point! :thumbsup:

[rosered]

     :dsunny:  we both made the same point , just expressed a little differently    .. close enough  for me Bro Jebs  :2thumbs: !!  thats a 2 thumbs up  :winkgrin:

[eaglesway]

It is almost as if we have forgotten that our faith is about fellowship with God in the Spirit of Christ first.....then comes doctrine. That fellowship is both an individual and corporate thing, but wherever there are more than one individual experiencing it together- there is the body of Christ.

[Molly]

No entity can be both the body and the bride of the Christ.   :2c:  That means marrying your own body, and that is absurd.   :2c:  Also, confusing, and God is not a God of confusion. 

All believers make up the Body of Christ - that's easy.  What's not so easy is determining who/what the Bride is.  I am writing (slowly) a book on the subject, and when I began it, I did not know who/what the Bride was.  I believe now, having read all through the OT, God's wives Israel and Judah, God's love for His wife/wives, His hurt at their unfaithfulness and His promises to take them back in the future, that the Bride is Israel, all 12 or 13 tribes of it, but not all members of those tribes - only the overcoming members of Israel will make up the Bride.   :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

One thing to consider for your book:  God divorced the northern 10 tribes of Israel [the lost tribes] but he never divorced Judah.  He couldn't divorce Judah because she would bring forth the Messiah.

So Judah ['Jews'] is probably not included in the bride.

Also, in the Levitical rules on marriage, a divorced woman cannot remarry until her ex-husband dies.  So Israel could not remarry until God died [hence, she goes missing, lost to history].  Then, he can remarry her in the new covenant.

[Lazarus Short]

Molly, I will have to review my notes, but I thought it was fairly clear that God divorced both Israel and Judah.  The Messiah issue would bear on this - correct - as Jesus would have been illegitimate in a sense if God and Judah were divorced.  Maybe that is why He described them as His two wives, two sisters...

You are right - one of the reasons Jesus died on the cross was to make Himself eligible to remarry all of Israel, including Judah.

BTW, while writing about the two sisters, Israel and Judah, the thought came to me that the song "Two Sisters," which is a very old folk song in many countries around the Baltic Sea area, may represent Judah's efforts to keep "Lost Israel" lost to history and common knowledge.  I may start a thread on the subject...

EDIT:  I did start a thread in the Jokes Songs & Movies sub-forum.  Reviews are mixed...

[speaktruth]

from Daily Overcoming Devotional for July 5

ALLEGORICAL RELATIONSHIPS

An allegory is a description of one thing under the image of another, a veiled presentation in which the more obvious becomes symbolic of a deeper thought and meaning.

...

It might surprise some, but Jesus never taught either doctrine on the bride or the sons, through His applications from many relationships. But His deepest message was to bring us into ONENESS WITH THE FATHER. "I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one." John 17:23

The pureness of a chaste virgin, the strength and overcoming of the sons, the maturity of a perfected disciple, the commitment of a good soldier, unified by the love of the brethren, with the love and tenderness of a mother, and the protecting, defending love of the father - the fullness of Christ, to be equal to every situation, and prepared for every good work.

For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him. Col 2:9-10

[lomarah]

Ohhhhhh good one!!  :thumbsup:  :cloud9:
Oneness... I can't wait!!

[rosered]

Been scanning trough Martin Zender's stuff. 
He says Israel is the bride of the Christ, and we (gentiles, I guess) are part of the body of the Christ.
The circumcision and the uncircumicison.
He says that there are two gospels.
The gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumicison.
I have never heard this teaching.
I have always been taught that we are his body and his bride.
That is doesn't matter whether you are Jew or Gentile, circumcised or not (figuratively speaking).
Martin's view seems to make more sense, but... :dontknow:

What do you believe? :Chinscratch:

  An old friend WW
picked up on this  and thought to share it , making a good point here and its long but  great suff in here !! :HeartThrob:

Jeremiah 3:8  God divorced Israel.
Romans 11:1-5 God didn't divorce His people.
Did God divorce the nation Israel but not the people itself?


Deuteronomy 24:1-4
English Standard Version (ESV)

Laws Concerning Divorce
24 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and

he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,

2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,


4 then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

Did God Divorce Israel?
What does Jeremiah Mean by the Promise
of a"New Covenant"?




"The Law of Moses and the New Covenant"

Question:


Dear Rabbi,

How do you explain the divorce in Jeremiah? How do you explain that the Jewish people are divorced from God by His own word? How do we as Jews get back to God under the Law which prohibits us from coming back? I am not saying that we are no longer God's Chosen – I am saying that for us to be reconciled to God, it cannot happen under the Law. Would God have to bring a "new covenant" in to bring us back to Him? You may post this question.

The answer? http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/divorced-israel.html

[jbertonbounds]

For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him. Col 2:9-10

Love that verse!  :HeartThrob: