(Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom: He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number of a man. And its number is 666
We all know the calculations that 'prove' Nero, Hitler, Elvis or Obama is the beast of Revelation.
Could there be another interpretation of the verse? The beast stands before a jury and received 666 black stones. Meaning the number 666 is the number of jury members?
While the stones were used for regular counting they had also had a prominent place in the ancient legal system. Also in the Bible. The white stone Jesus gives is a voting stone. When the high priest went in the Holies of Holies he held a bag with 1 black and 1 white voting stone. (Drawing lots)
So is the verse about "counting stones" or "voting stones"?
Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones.... :dontknow:
G5585
ψηφίζω
psēphizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
2) to give one's vote by casting a pebble into the urn
3) to decide by voting
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5586
Citing in TDNT: 9:604, 1341
G5586
ψῆφος
psēphos
Thayer Definition:
1) a small worn smooth stone, a pebble
1a) in the ancient courts of justice the accused were condemned by black pebbles and the acquitted by white
2) a vote (on account of the use of pebbles in voting)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the same as G5584
Citing in TDNT: 9:604, 1341
psḗphos/ψήφος [pebble, vote],
psēphízō/ψηφίζω [to calculate, reckon],
sympsēphízō/συμψηφίζω [to reckon],
(katapsēphízomai/καταψηφίζομαι [to resolve, condemn]),
synkatapsēphízomai/συγκαταψηφίζομαι [to be chosen]
A. Normal Greek Usage.
1. psḗphos. This word means "little stone," "pebble," "dressed stone," or "stone" used in mosaics or board games. The plural, for "stones" used in counting, can denote "account." Other uses for small stones are in astrology, soothsaying, and especially voting. The latter use leads to the meaning "vote" or "voice," then "opinion," and in the legal sphere "voting" and "verdict."
2. psēphízō, sympsēphízō, (katapsēphízomai ), synkatapsēphízomai.
a. psēphízō means "to count" or "calculate" with stones, in a transferred sense "to reach a verdict," and middle "to vote with a stone," "to vote," "to resolve."
b. sympsēphízō, an uncommon word, means "to reckon up," "to agree on."
c. katapsēphízomai means "to pronounce guilty" or "to resolve," middle "to be condemned."
B. The LXX and Hellenistic Judaism.
1. The LXX.
a. We find psḗphos in Lam. 3:16 for "little stone" and in Ex. 4:25 for the sharp stone used for cutting the foreskin. The plural in Sir. 18:10 is used for little stones in the sand. The sense of "voting stone" occurs in 4 Macc. 15:26.
b. psēphízō is a variant in 1 Kgs. 3:8; 8:5 for "counting." sympsēphízō occurs in Jer. 49:20 Cod. AQ for "counting" (sheep).
2. Josephus.
a. Josephus uses psḗphos for "resolve" or "vote."
b. psēphízomai in Josephus means "to resolve" or "to reckon."
c. katapsēphízomai has the meaning "to condemn."
3. Philo.
a. Philo uses psḗphos for "pronouncement" or "verdict." Pronouncements may be just and legal or unjust and illegal.
b. psēphízomai has in Philo the sense "to decree" or "to resolve."
c. katapsēohízomai means "to condemn."
C. The NT and Apostolic Fathers.
1. Paul in Acts 26:10 says that he gave his "voice" against believers, i.e., condemned them.
2. The white stone of Rev. 2:17 may have been an amulet. It serves to ward off evil forces. The color denotes its new and distinctive character or category.
3. In Lk. 14:28 psēphízō means "to reckon." As the builder should count the cost before starting, so disciples should consider their resources. They must also consider the cost of the required renunciation. "Reckon" is also the meaning of sympsēphízō in Acts 19:19 when those who had burned their books of magic valued them and found they came to a very high sum.
4. The number of the beast is counted in Rev. 13:18. Numerical value is ascribed to the letters, and the total is 666. One interpretation of this number is that it is the sum of the numbers 1 to 36, and that 36 is the sum of the numbers 1 to 8. In Gnosticism the number 8, the ogdoad, is identical to sophía, so that Gnostic wisdom might be the enemy. Others arrive at the emperor Domitian.
5. katapsēphízomai in Acts 1:26 seems to indicate that Matthias is officially given a place with the eleven.
6. sympsēphízō means "to reckon," "to add up," "to calculate" in Hermas Visions 3.1.4.
[G. Braumann, IX, 604-07]
my pov it is the man of sins rulership/dominion.[666 prince of this world]
....your days have come to an end...you have
been judged/weighed in the balance and found wanting.........men mene tekel and parsen
now the serpent was the most subtil of any beast of the field
you have imperfect judgement of men..and you have perfection and lights..the judgement of God...
...the spirits of just men made perfect...
we have all received a black stone from Adam/sin entered...and a white stone from Jesus....
just as we have bore the corrupt image..we shall bear the image of the incorrupt[white stone]
this is what I perceive ww...I'm sure there are amany other things that can be added.
1 Cor 4;3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any other human court; indeed,I do not even judge myself
my conscience is clear,but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me
therefore judge nothing before the appointed time;wait til the Lord comes.
He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness[urim and thummim] and will expose the motives of men's hearts
at that time each will receive his praise from God
Now my brothers..I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for YOUR benefit..so that you may
learn from us the meaning of the saying 'DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN...THEN YOU WILL NOT
TAKE PRIDE IN ONE MAN OVER AGAINST THE OTHER..[fallen in Adam/raised in Christ each of us]..
FOR WHO MAKES YOU DIFFERENT FROM ANYONE ELSE? [free gift given=raised up/all men will be]
WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DIDNOT RECEIVE? again free gift to all men by grace]
AND IF YOU DID RECEIVE IT...WHY DO YOU BOAST AS THOUGH YOU DIDN'T[IF HE HAS LIGHTENED YOU
VAUNT NOT YOURSELF AGAINST THOSE IN DARKNESS=GIVE FREELY OF WHAT YOU FREELY REC'D]
think not that you 'earned' it somehow..know His grace did lighten you
God has judged all in fallen Adam as worthy of His love/mercy/grace...and will see to it..each in his order
Jesus said..'your righteousness MUST exceed that of the Pharisees"...they judge the law but do not do
what they say"...Love GOD[the love of God is not in you or you would love me] and love your brother as yourself
or rejoice that sinful men will receive the free gift of grace and eternal life
This may not mean anything but 6 is the number of man and this beast (6) caused "the earth and them that dwell therein to WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST" another 6.
This beast also causes a image to be made "of the beast that had a wound and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak" another 6.
This beast has power over two more 6's/men, which makes him a 666. You could say they are united as one and the same. I just thought of this after reading your post and (Rev. 13:11-18).
CHB
I'm aware of that C.
There are many such views, articles and books.
It's just that today for the first time I noticed that what we know as counting is a bit like "pebbling" in Greek.
I really liked the whole white stone black stone Idea.
I can see my flesh agreeing with the evidence that Satan
gives, for his reason of throwing in the black stone,
when my named is called before the judgment seat
Then on the other side my spirit sees Jesus throwing in the white
stone and agrees with the evidence he presents.
My flesh looks one way my spirit the other
my soul is in the middle.
My flesh convinces my soul with something it calls reality.
My spirit convinces my soul with something it calls faith.
My soul used to decide day by day then hour by hour.
Lately the spirit through faith has been convincing my soul.
My flesh has been weakened and has less to say now that I don't hang out with
religious people.
My spirit likes this place My flesh doesn't mind it either it tells us it's
smart and knows how to type with out any training.
By both accounts(heh heh) of Strong and Thayer I will vote for "counting." (heh heh) and this, in my humble opinion, is were the imagination of the human goes awry in study, "Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones...."
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.
Can we see that?
one more thing.......love does NOT KEEP COUNT of a wrong
Quote from: sheila on October 02, 2012, 05:24:17 AM
one more thing.......love does NOT KEEP COUNT of a wrong
Now that I believe is a truth.
:gimmefive:
Warm and Fuzzy...and that don't happen often. :happy3:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 02, 2012, 12:43:05 AM
By both accounts(heh heh) of Strong and Thayer I will vote for "counting." (heh heh) and this, in my humble opinion, is were the imagination of the human goes awry in study, "Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones...."
Well, Voting is very much part of Stong/Thayer. Stones/lots are used throught the Bible. So I can just as well say it's your imagination it's just about counting.
QuoteEcc 3:18 I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.
Can we see that?
Relevance?
Your looking for the beast.
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2012, 06:28:37 PM
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.
OK
1234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738.39..40........
Quote from: dajomaco on October 02, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
1234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738.39..40........
Can you do that again?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2012, 10:58:13 AM
While the stones were used for regular counting they had also had a prominent place in the ancient legal system. Also in the Bible. The white stone Jesus gives is a voting stone. When the high priest went in the Holies of Holies he held a bag with 1 black and 1 white voting stone. (Drawing lots)
So is the verse about "counting stones" or "voting stones"?
Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones....
I have thought the White Stone with a new name in it was an immortal and incorruptible dove's egg.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Rv 2
17, KJV)
yeah. and the opposite are the black stones.
Stones were used in (secular) court, in the Temple, and several other Scriptures for voting and declaring God's will.
Also for counting. Bit like an abacus I assume.
Both (counting, voting) use the same Greek word.
So my question was and still is: Is the number of the beast only about counting/calculating or also about voting?
voting/judging....you have judgements of men/sinful ..and the TRUE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD
Jesus told His disciples not to judge..but to wait for the proper time...which to me would be
to wait for God's judgements in the earth as announced by the trumpet revelations .
many years ago I awken to angelic conversations about evil tribunals..but was not granted
to take this message out/consciousness.
now the balck horse with the scales rides in judgement....wheat barley oil and wine are not harmed
it has to do with the famine of God's true words in the earth. the preservation of truth
you have the bronze/judgement in 'image' and you have the bronze angel's words of God's judgement
and come to explain the vision in Daniel with bronze arms and legs[God striding in the earth in Judgements
and 'works of His hands/judgement[Christ sacrifice] Great war
Rev 2;18..feet like burnished bronze...Christ working the judgements of God in the earth/heel bruised
mind of satan crushed
the living creature in Ezekiel 1 when the heavens were opened.....their feet were like those of a calf
and gleamed like burished bronze...these throne attendants [Rev 4;7] work the judgements of God in the earth
these are tyhe living creatures[with the spirit of life of God in them working His judgements]
not the judgements of the lifeless idol/image..due to be struck with a stone not cut out by6 human hands
Rev 6 shows the four horsemen riding..white horse=conqueror/Christ..red horse=power to take peace from the
earth[think not I come to bring peace but to cause division]..the black= God's judgements in earth...
all of this work and riding throughout the earth has to do with God bringing down the image and
working His judgements in the earth....He is breaking up the works of the devil in this spiritual warfare.
the pale horse rider..death followed by Hades.......power to kill by sword famine and plague
O'DEATH I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES.....I will come and war with you with the sword of my mouth
get out of her my people,lest ye receive of her plagues
Zechariah 1 the Man among the myrtle trees... and red horses brown and white....these are sent throughout
the earth and found peace/rest/ while Jerusalem lay devastated/scatter4ed
....I AM VERY JEALOUS FOR JERUSALEM AND ZION
BUT I AM VERY ANGRY WITH THE NATIONS
the four craftsmen/horses with riders come to scatter the four horns[powers] that scattered Judah,Isreal
and Jerusalem.....ch 3 clean garments..gold lampstand two olive trees...iniquity of the people carried off
to Babylon...four chariots[again 4 colour horses]=4 spirits of heaven= before I realized it, my desire
SET ME AMONG THE ROYAL CHARIOTS OF MY PEOPLE sos 6;12
beastly image[see Nebuchaddnezer image seven times passing as beast..come to senses and glorify God
tribune in ancient Rome any of several magistrates b." ANY OF THE SIX OFFICERS WHO ROTATED
A COMMAND OVER A LEGION FOR A YEAR
Tribunal= a seat or bench..any seat of judgement= see man of lawlessness/abomination 'sits in temple
of God and shows himself that he is 'God"
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2012, 06:28:37 PM
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.
I'm interested where I can find out about the "casting of lots" that relate to "calculating" the number of the beast. Direction
see......Tribunal Apostolicum Ritae Romanae........highest apellate tribunal of Roman
Catholic Church....also see Inquisition
Oh, thanks, don't look like a path I want to wander down.
land is parceled out to those who forsake the covenant...the evil contrast to receiving our lot/inheritance
of promises of God[go thy way Daniel..you will rise and receive your lot].
Daniel speaks of the princes of this world[greece and Persia] fighting against Gabriel and preventing him
until Michael come....
God gives His rewards...and satan his
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 04, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2012, 06:28:37 PM
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.
I'm interested where I can find out about the "casting of lots" that relate to "calculating" the number of the beast. Direction
See my first post Micah.
It's mainly quotes from Strong/Thayer lexicons and similar.
http://concordances.org/greek/5586.htm
well...they casted lots to divide up His clothes...to me...
it's the parting of Him...the 'word of God' come in flesh....some of the insults they heaped
was 'accusing him of tearing down the temple to raise it again' that is the 'sign' spoken against...
'this one is to cause the falling and rising of many in Isreal" His temple was a temple of God's spirit
and word in truth...people will kill truth if it means it shows their 'fall[ing] away. the unjust servants
do not desire to lose their 'high" positions
- Revelation 13:11 "And I saw another beast ascending up from the earth, and it had two horns, like a lamb; and it spake as a dragon."
This beast is characterized as a beast that has two horns
like a LAMB [
'looks like' the Lamb of God - i.e. - looks Christian],
BUT it spake
as a DRAGON [but it
'spake' as that old serpent, the
DRAGON, called the devil, and Satan (Revelation 13:11, 12:9)].
This
"beast" professes to be the true representative of
the Lamb of God in the world. It pretends to be meek like a lamb, and professes to holy and godly, but it spake
AS A DRAGON.
What does this
"religious beast" who masquerades as Christ's kingdom use to perpetuate its fear doctrines and dogma? It uses the bible - a book compiled by fallible men to control mankind!
They even
swear on the bible with their
"right hand" and memorize it
"in their foreheads."
- "He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads." (Revelation 13:16)
The bible is used and misused to control the flocks of 38,000 denominations - who
ALL think they know the truth. The bible, because of so many different interpretations and countless different
'WINDS (spirits) of doctrine,' has been used
(and misused) to rule and kill more people than anything or anyone in human history, and it is still being used by the nations who worship it to go to war and
kill.
- "For the letter kills, the Spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)
Millions of people claim:
'the bible says this' -
'the bible says that.' 'The bible speaks of this,' 'the bible speaks of that.'
- "He was then permitted to give life to this image so that it could SPEAK." (Revelation 13:15)
According to mainstream Christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in the bible
will be killed (
annihilated) or
eternally tormented!
- "Then the image of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must be killed." (Revelation 13:15)
Man's number is
6 (created on
Day 6, appointed to labor
6 days, etc).
The bible is composed of
66 books - composed and assembled to control
mankind (
6).
- "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is 666." (Revelation 13:18)
The
ONLY Word of God is
the LIVING Word,
Jesus Christ within, who has
written His laws in our minds and on our hearts. For Christians the Bible is
USEFUL for knowing of Christ and how to validate Him and instruction in righteousness. However, it is only the infallible word of God for
BIBLEians -
NOT CHRISTians.
By elevating the words written
"in ink" to the status of
Christ Himself (the Spirit of Truth
WITHIN), one is worshiping
"an image" of God, but it is
NOT GOD, nor is it the Word of God!
Only Christ has that status! This is the
"mark of the beast."
Your emphasis on the inner spirit over the Bible sounds like Quakerism to me. As to your core thesis, I can't help but wonder at the long war against the Bible, if it represents what you say. At one time, the saints of God were under the Law, an institution Paul described as a sort of guardian for immature children. They had little Spirit. In the present Age, we saints have more Spirit, and (hopefully) live by Grace rather than under the Law. In the Age to come, God will finally write His Law and His ways into our hearts and minds, and then and only then, will we be past the guardians of Law and Grace, for then we will have moved on into Glory.
BTW, the lamb-like beast with two horns probably represents the Bison, and therefore, Amerika. It has certainly been looking Godly for a long time, while speaking and doing otherwise, especially if you equate hubris with being dragon-like.
Be aware that there are MANY theories on the Beast, its Image, the Mark 666, and all the rest.
:thumbsup: Laz
Quote from: BirdSong on April 09, 2013, 12:13:19 AM
Millions of people claim:
'the bible says this' - 'the bible says that.' 'The bible speaks of this,' 'the bible speaks of that.'
- "He was then permitted to give life to this image so that it could SPEAK." (Revelation 13:15)
According to mainstream Christianity, anyone who doesn't believe in the bible will be killed (annihilated) or eternally tormented!
- "Then the image of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must be killed." (Revelation 13:15)
The bible is composed of 66 books - composed and assembled to control mankind (6).
The ONLY Word of God is the LIVING Word, Jesus Christ within, who has written His laws in our minds and on our hearts. For Christians the Bible is USEFUL for knowing of Christ and how to validate Him and instruction in righteousness. However, it is only the infallible word of God for BIBLEians - NOT CHRISTians.
By elevating the words written "in ink" to the status of Christ Himself (the Spirit of Truth WITHIN), one is worshiping "an image" of God, but it is NOT GOD, nor is it the Word of God! Only Christ has that status! This is the "mark of the beast."
Birdsong, aka Illuin -
IMO, your post does not accurately reflect a balanced view that takes in the whole counsel; not "elevating the Bible" to some idol status, but also not disrespecting the Spirit-breathed Words of God. I don't believe the Holy Spirit breathes questionable, unreliable things. Man can make a mess of almost anything, but that doesn't necessarily mean the
object is bad or faulty. IMO, it has to do with our not being led of the Spirit, walking after the flesh, letting our carnal minds rule, etc.
I hear numerous people quote "the letter kills but the Spirit brings life". While that's certainly true, I don't think they bother to take into consideration the context of the scripture. I believe the context of the scripture is, that the letter OF THE LAW kills, but the Spirit makes alive. I.e., trying to justify ourselves by keeping of The Law rather than having the spiritual new birth through grace, faith, the free gift through Jesus. When Jesus said they thought they had life by reading the scriptures, IMO, what He was saying was NOT, again, the way many want to use it. I believe He was saying they were missing HIM - not that there was something wrong with the scriptures. They were rejecting of
Him, Who was testified about WITHIN those scriptures. Nothing wrong with the scriptures, but they needed HIM. I believe Paul confirmed all this in multiples of his writings - how good the Law is, but that it killed him, because it made him aware of his sin and he couldn't do anything about that without - JESUS!
Anyway, on another but related note, at TM, outright textual criticism (disrespecting, "trashing"/attempting to diminish) the scriptures" is not an allowed topic. It's stated clearly here;
"...our focus is WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES. Gary Amirault has noted that there needs to be a respect for scripture in the discussion forum. Not any other members' point of view crammed down others' throats, but that the default setting is a respect for scripture. Accurately translated (as much as is currently possible), and the Spirit within the letters having been revealed to us, they are reliable.
Outright texual criticism is not an allowed topic or matter of discussion on the TM discussion forum. It is seen as a divisive tool within the body, and not helpful to others' growth in the faith of Jesus Christ. Also, repeated veiled references within posts that the scriptures are untrue, or to be discounted in matters of belief and practice, are not only discouraged, but will be moderated based upon moderators' discretion. Continually ignoring these policies, or public criticism of moderators' decisions, will be subject to a ban from the forum. We will strive to be fair, respectful, and to have anything we do done with the love of Christ, but please see sentence #1 above.
There are plenty of other places in the world today that are accepting to the deceit that the scriptures are either not reliable, not necessary, or that don't understand (or care) that the Father and Son, the Spirit, and the written scriptures work in tandem - that they don't cancel each other out, nor one make the other unnecessary. TM is not one of those places. If anyone has any honest, searching questions about the validity of the scriptures (not just a repeated effort to cast doubt or trash them) any moderator will discuss that by PM and try to help you...an honest, loving effort will be made to try to help you grow in the faith." http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
It might serve well to review the posting guidelines; as was discussed prior, this isn't a teaching forum, as we ask things be stated as IMO/as I understand, etc. For instance, your statement that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Word, IMO, is an opinion - and one that I believe an open heart and mind will see otherwise. There's been some relevant information posted on this in the past, i.e., believed evidence that there's the
written Word, God's
spoken Word, His
thoughts are even His Word, and
Jesus did become the Word made flesh. There are multiple scriptures, that when sorted out and put together, show a range of "definition" of what God's Word(s) are. Regardless if you agree with that or not, it's an example of why we post "as I understand/in my opinion". However, again, please review the guidelines in general. I suspect you may consider this as "smacking of self-righteousness" per your last post as Illuin, however, the guidelines state one's first post indicates agreement to abide by forum guidelines, "or please don't post". There are good reasons those things are in place, so we don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel (or keep hashing around things that are already in black and white). Thanks for your consideration. James.[/list]
Here's the information to which I alluded, if it might be helpful. If this is discussed further, we'll need to refrain from taking it to the level addressed in the TM Expectations Regarding the Scriptures as above. Thanks.
The belief presented here is that Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens. In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the spoken Word, the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.
IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.
John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".
John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.
Here's evidence that written and/or spoken, is the Word of God - John 14:23 JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words" [The Word, speaking of His Words]
Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". [spoken/written] God said the Holy Spirit breathed His words to the holy men of old, which were then recorded for us.
John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you". [Word, speaking the Word.]
Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired. God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word. Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh. But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word. They operate in tandem. They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.
I later inquired (again) of God about this topic. He immediately let me know He had already let me know. I went to the written Word. These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).
I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard
2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
:14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you
Mathew 13:18-22 Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22; "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.
Mt. 15:3 "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition? ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition." (IMO, this isn't talking about Jesus per se, or "only". It's talking about God's directions [words bearing His expectations and intent] to us.
Jesus/Yesu said Rev. 3:8 You have kept my Word and you haven't disowned my name ("Yesu")
John 1:14 The Word became flesh
John 8:31 Then Yesu was saying..."if you stay in My Word, you are truly my students"
37 "you are seeking to kill 1) Me, for My 2) Word has no room in you"
[separate mentions of what the Word is] John 17:6,8 "I made your Name apparent...they have kept Your Word. Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."
"Well seen! I too watch over My Word to see it fulfilled" (Jer. 1:11-12).
Jab I remember you sharing that before and it hit me back then (in a good way lol) as I was on the road to almost starting to ignore the scriptures as well. Thanks for sharing what God has given you, and I will emphatically witness to the life in those scriptures! I also see where Birdsong is coming from as I have read the scriptures apart from the illumination of the HS in the past (as do many today and many have in ages past). I do agree that this i where all the false doctrine is coming from. I am not sure about 666 but I do believe the church structure today certainly fits the description of the beast.
Quote from: lomarah on April 09, 2013, 06:45:45 AM
Jab I remember you sharing that before and it hit me back then (in a good way lol) as I was on the road to almost starting to ignore the scriptures as well. Thanks for sharing what God has given you, and I will emphatically witness to the life in those scriptures! I also see where Birdsong is coming from as I have read the scriptures apart from the illumination of the HS in the past (as do many today and many have in ages past). I do agree that this i where all the false doctrine is coming from. I am not sure about 666 but I do believe the church structure today certainly fits the description of the beast.
Thanks Lo, I'm glad you've been blessed.
Yes, of course the Holy Spirit is needed - in EVERYTHING. And we [humankind] can sure mess a lot of things up. However, I don't believe that's all that's being said by Birdsong/Illuin, or that's the only place "he's coming from" with this - if looked at closely. That's what I believe, but if that's not completely correct, then he can clarify. :thumbsup:
As far as all those scrips about the Word Lo, I believe God really did give that to me - and it's all written right there. As a friend says, hidden right there in plain sight. :laughing7: So much in those few verses. :thumbsup: Praise God!
Quote from: lomarah on April 09, 2013, 06:45:45 AM
Jab I remember you sharing that before and it hit me back then (in a good way lol) as I was on the road to almost starting to ignore the scriptures as well. Thanks for sharing what God has given you, and I will emphatically witness to the life in those scriptures! I also see where Birdsong is coming from as I have read the scriptures apart from the illumination of the HS in the past (as do many today and many have in ages past). I do agree that this i where all the false doctrine is coming from. I am not sure about 666 but I do believe the church structure today certainly fits the description of the beast.
I've been wanting to come here and write something on Cardinal's thread. I can't really do it tonight, either. But, something I've learned recently--When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did he do? He quoted the Word of God. And, Satan was vanquished.
Remember, Adam just stood there silent as Eve interacted with Satan. Adam was not deceived [because he had the Holy Spirit, the breath of God], but the one weapon he did not have, yet, was the Word of God. So, Satan overcame them.
So, now we have Jesus in the same position and overcoming Satan with the Word of God, as an example for us.
So recently, I've been trying to heal my little dog [don't laugh, there's nothing the docs can do for him], and it has come to me to speak the Word of God over him, God's promises directly out of the Bible. There is a book called, '65 Promises from God for your Child' by Mike Shreve, and these are the words I will say over him--the promises of God. We are to be the 'imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises' [Heb 6:12]. I wanted Card to know about this book. Don't give up on the scripture. It is our most powerful weapon.
Great posts, Jab. :thumbsup:
Thank you, good word. :thumbsup: Blessings to your pup. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on April 09, 2013, 10:45:14 AM
Thank you, good word. :thumbsup: Blessings to your pup. :HeartThrob:
Thanks! :HeartThrob:
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
--Heb 6
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
something I've learned recently--When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did he do? He quoted the Word of God. And, Satan was vanquished.
Remember, Adam just stood there silent as Eve interacted with Satan. Adam was not deceived [because he had the Holy Spirit, the breath of God], but the one weapon he did not have, yet, was the Word of God. So, Satan overcame them.
So, now we have Jesus in the same position and overcoming Satan with the Word of God, as an example for us.
Molly, this is beautiful. I never thought of it that way. Thanks for sharing it.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2013, 10:41:41 AM
...When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did he do? He quoted the Word of God. And, Satan was vanquished...Remember, Adam just stood there silent as Eve interacted with Satan. Adam was not deceived [because he had the Holy Spirit, the breath of God], but the one weapon he did not have, yet, was the Word of God. So, Satan overcame them.[/quote]
That's an amazing insight, Molly! :thumbsup:
BTW, for your pup, also try a Bach Flower Remedy called Rescue Remedy.
Quote from: Molly on April 09, 2013, 10:41:41 AM...When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did he do? He quoted the Word of God. And, Satan was vanquished...Remember, Adam just stood there silent as Eve interacted with Satan. Adam was not deceived [because he had the Holy Spirit, the breath of God], but the one weapon he did not have, yet, was the Word of God. So, Satan overcame them.
That's an amazing insight, Molly! :thumbsup:
BTW, for your pup, also try a Bach Flower Remedy called Rescue Remedy.
Yes it is. :2thumbs:
To Molly and Lo who directly discussed it, and anyone else interested, it really seemed God directed me to this today, just in my morning reading. I didn't know what was there, but was nudged to begin at this place;
Now Master, take notice of their threats, and grant it to Your slaves to be continually speaking Your Word with all boldness, while You stretch out Your hand for healing and signs and miracles to occur through the name of Your pure Servant Boy Yesu". Acts 4:29,30, The Christian Bible (1991)
There have been times when I have read the Bible
and I knew that God was speaking directly to me.
I have heard sermons and Spiritual explanation
where I knew Jesus was speaking directly to me.
I have prayed silently and heard what I
believed to be the Holy Spirit speaking directly to me.
I must admit though that when a series of coincidences
happen while I try to listen to God.
The more I am convinced that I have heard from God.
No doubt, Daj, God speaks to us through all of those ways.
Thanks for sharing this truth. :dsunny:
Sometimes I ponder :Chinscratch: if number sometime have meaning simply as character, rather that their numerical value. For example, 666 may not mean six hundred sixty-six, but rather three sixes that are in some way related, sort of like a combination to a lock or a lottery number. :JCThink:
some claim it's 616 anyway... :dunno2:
I still like Walid Shoebat's explanation the best.
Go check out his video on the mark of the beast.
I must admit, when I first considered the idea, I wrote it off pretty quickly. However, the more I thought about it, it really does fit like a glove with Revelation 13, and deserves some more in-depth thought and prayer in my opinion.
It's not so much the bible
IS the
IMAGE itself that is worshipped
(i.e. - - the IMAGE of the beast - the beast is the carnal, natural flesh man - the image of man = the image of the beast - as in 'man creating God in his own IMAGE.') But the bible is
the "mark" - of a
'true believer' - and is also used to promote the fear doctrines of eternal torment, annihilation, etc. In times past, it was used to
conquer and kill perhaps millions
'supposedly' in the name of God
How many times have you heard people say:
"If you don't believe in the bible, you'll go to hell" ..... or something of that nature. And how many times have you heard people say:
"The bible has the FINAL say on any matter".... or,
"what the bible says trumps ALL", etc. This is especially troubling when you recall that the
New Covenant was never supposed to be
"another letter." The
Old Covenant was
"the letter" and was a letter that
FAILED because we are told there is a
veil of ignorance (blind minds) over the reading of Moses that can only be lifted
by Christ and
His Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:15)
Jesus fulfilled all the expectations of His day, and for every day since, for 2000 years. That is what fulfilling the Old Testament
(the letter) means and that is what validates Christianity. The veil of ignorance - that blinded the religious leaders at the time of Christ to God's
TRUE NATURE from the misinterpretations of the Old Testament - was
lifted by Jesus:
- 2 Corinthains 3:14-17 "But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
The same is true today. The minds of people remain blinded by the veil of ignorance over reading the Old Testament. Those of us who listen to Christ and
His Holy Spirit (Comforter) WITHIN lift the veil and see the truth God has
"written in our hearts" . . .
NOT the words
"written in ink" by men. The New Covenant was never supposed to be
"another letter." The
New Covenant IS the Spirit - Christ, who
lives in us as the Comforter - the
Spirit of Truth.
Yet few realize that He
LIVES within and has
written His laws in our minds and on our hearts:
- Hebrews 8:10-11 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them."
Rather than following
the Spirit - as was intended - the bible -
the words 'written in ink' ALWAYS gets the FINAL say. This shows
a lack of faith in Christ; the
LIVING WORD who is
SPIRIT and lives
within. And is this not
idolizing the bible - a collection of
'inspired' (not dictated) writings by fallible men?
It is not so much they worship
the book itself - but they do
elevate the bible to the status of Christ Himself. And it is indeed the
"mark" of a
"bible thumper" to use that book to compel, even
threaten and blackmail, people to worship
their false IMAGE of God.
Another thing to consider is the bible's history. Jesus removed the need for the
shadows that represented the
Spiritual realities He Himself became. He removed the need for
'temples made with hands, rituals, forms creeds, written words, etc.' - all of the
shadows that were practiced by the Levitical priesthood.
- Hebrews 8:4-5 "For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things."
However,
Constantine The Great (the first "Christian" Roman emperor - - - A.D. 306 - A.D. 337) was the first to reinstate the Levitical priesthood
all over again (especially with the Council of Nicaea). All of the
"external, outward, physical" types that were only supposed to be
shadows representing the
Spiritual realities were once again established with Constantine -
'temples made with hands (churches), creeds, rituals, forms, rules, regulations, ceremonies, etc.' - everything that Christ fulfilled and
did away with by His fulfillment of these shadows. Constantine very much fits the
"FIRST BEAST" from
the SEA in Revelation 13:1-10.
After a horrible dark age of church rule
(using the bible), this reign received what can be viewed as a
deadly wound with the
Protestant Reformation. And what happened?
King James (the
'6th' King of Scotland) translated the bible into
'66' books, and it spread around the world. This was the first time the masses had access to the bible for themselves. Other than a few ritualistic differences, Mary worship, etc. the false gospel - with its
fear doctrines of eternal torment and/or annihilation - remained basically the same.
This was a
're-FORMATION' of the
FIRST BEAST nonetheless. The
deadly wound was healed with the rising of this
SECOND BEAST from the EARTH in Revelation 13:11-18. This
SECOND BEAST is the very beast that had the
IMAGE OF THE FIRST BEAST set up.
What is
"the image of the first beast?" Well, this
Protestant Reformation that was significantly increased by the massive distribution of the
66 books, was basically the same religious beast as the previous religious beast - i.e. - the same core teachings, fear doctrines, etc. etc. It was an
IMAGE of the
first religious beast. It was a
RE-FORMATION of the FIRST BEAST.
It was this
SECOND BEAST who set up the
IMAGE and commanded the people to receive
"the mark" that identified him as a
"true believer." This
MAN - King James - was the
'6th' king of Scotland - who compiled the bible into
'66' books.
This is just some food for thought. I'm not declaring anything - just sharing. I've been doing a lot of thinking and praying about this. As I said before, I wrote this idea off as being silly at first and cast it aside quickly. I'm sure many of you will probably do the same. But I feel it deserves some more thought, some very in-depth thought actually. Peace and God bless.
Good post! I agree with much of it. :thumbsup:
BIRDSONG,
Thanks for this clarification. It is certainly interesting "food for thought." It does seem to call for some serious thought and prayer. We must all keep searching - it is the only way that God will continue to teach us and reveal things to us. This thread has already sparked my interest in studying more about what role God takes in protecting/preserving the written word (inspired scriptures) through the millennia (yesterday I started a thread entitled "Does God Protect the Written Word From Human Error?").
Thanks.
Birdsong I've actually put something forth about this a while back on here. Basically it was about the arrangement of 66 books compared to the 49 as shown by Dr. Ernist Martin (which is timely since Ken has been posting stuff based off his work right now here).
In the book of Revelation, you see 3 classes of people.
Those who dwell in the heavens, which I see as the barley company, the overcomers.
Those who dwell in the sea, which is the grapes company, the dead (now) as the sea represents the dead (as in let the dead bury the dead)
Those who dwell on the earth, which is the wheat company, the "church".
Now it says all those who dwell on the earth take the mark. It says nothing of the overcomers/those who dwell in the heavens taking the mark.
Those who dwell in the sea are dead, they know nothing, they have no desire for the bible, or the things of God, and so can't be deceived, as they are dead.
That leaves "the church". IMO the whore of babylon is none other than Circe, "the church". And we see her riding on the back of the beast --the carnal mind. And the confusion they bring is shown in the 66 books.
I do believe that the bible is idolized by many christians. Thats not to remove it from its position of what its meant to do, but is not meant to replace Christ in you.
Yes, thanks for the clarification Pete. That's helpful. I've been thinking about you and praying for you last night, and I was a little puzzled - because I saw elsewhere where you had posted something like "we need to pay attention to the Word of God", which in context, it seems like you were saying "the sayings, instructions, [including written] Words from God. So aha!, there's more to the story, and again, thanks for clarifying. I just don't know about the 66 vs. 49 books, haven't looked into it that much, and IMO, I think one would need to be VERY careful about deciding which ones to weed out :mshock: - maybe Dr. Martin is able to do that - but right now, I'm going to hold my reservations about that - I'm doubtful. I believe what Lazarus Short shared about the mathematical equation of the earliest manuscripts - on which BASICALLY MOST translations are based, is powerful stuff. I'm not ready to go tampering with it myself. Still, I believe some of the things you've clarified are helpful, thanks.
--------
Something I read the other night that really got my attention; When satan tempted Eve in the garden, and with Jesus in the desert - he didn't do a full frontal assault. He whispered things like "can it be true", "can you..", "it says...(while leaving out part of "what it says" - check it out - he only quoted part of a verse to make it what he wanted). In other words, he planted DOUBT.
I don't believe "the Bible" [more accurately, scripture] is meant to replace "Christ in you" either. However, I don't think it's even necessarily separated from "Christ in you", because of what I just posted in another thread - i.e., the logos of God at work in us, separating, dividing, cutting, etc., in the Greek means SAYINGS of God. So connectedly, God said the Holy Spirit spoke through holy men of old, and also that all scripture is inspired [GOD-BREATHED]. So my believe is, ANY thought, saying (spoken or written), and Jesus the Word made flesh in us, are all the Word of God and are to be handled with extreme care. Personally, I think it's very important to be sure we're identifying that it's how the carnal mind may HANDLE the Words of God, vs. the Message itself being "bad". :2c: "In the beginning was the logos.." God has many ways of passing that down to us.
Much to consider, I'm just not sure the scriptures have any real role in the Mark of the Beast. If so, I think it would be just in how certain people use them - or maybe more correctly, how satan in people twist and MIS-use them.
May we just simply trust Him more. Amen, blessings.
Great thoughts everyone, very well rounded, you guys are giving me much to think on. Thanks. :HeartThrob:
Jab the 49 are the same books just some are combined like the minor prophets is one book.
ty :thumbsup:
I'm on mobile /texting so can't quote but am responding to the 1st post by Whitewings. I didn't know that about the "white stone"! Thanks! :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 11, 2013, 07:12:24 PM
Birdsong I've actually put something forth about this a while back on here. Basically it was about the arrangement of 66 books compared to the 49 as shown by Dr. Ernist Martin (which is timely since Ken has been posting stuff based off his work right now here).
In the book of Revelation, you see 3 classes of people.
Those who dwell in the heavens, which I see as the barley company, the overcomers.
Those who dwell in the sea, which is the grapes company, the dead (now) as the sea represents the dead (as in let the dead bury the dead)
Those who dwell on the earth, which is the wheat company, the "church".
Now it says all those who dwell on the earth take the mark. It says nothing of the overcomers/those who dwell in the heavens taking the mark.
Those who dwell in the sea are dead, they know nothing, they have no desire for the bible, or the things of God, and so can't be deceived, as they are dead.
That leaves "the church". IMO the whore of babylon is none other than Circe, "the church". And we see her riding on the back of the beast --the carnal mind. And the confusion they bring is shown in the 66 books.
I do believe that the bible is idolized by many christians. Thats not to remove it from its position of what its meant to do, but is not meant to replace Christ in you.
I totally agree! I'd be very interested to read what you previously wrote about this. I looked for it, but couldn't locate the post/thread. Someone else I know from another forum was "hinting" at this idea as well, so it would seem there may be many with similar thoughts. Thank you for your post.
I'll see if I can find it, but I think what I just wrote probably sums it up, though it was on the end of a long conversation if memory serves.
QuoteOriginally Posted by Jabcat,
Birdsong, aka Illuin -
His wife jabcat :LH: Illuin told me this is the only forum worth joining. He has the stomach and the patience for debating in the "turn-or-burn" fundamentalist forums, but not me. He does help me format posts sometimes, but I pretty much know how to do that now.
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 11, 2013, 10:04:48 PM
I'll see if I can find it, but I think what I just wrote probably sums it up, though it was on the end of a long conversation if memory serves.
Thank you. :dsunny:
QuoteOriginally Posted by jabcat,
Yes, thanks for the clarification Pete.
Jenny..... Like in Forest Gump. I guess it doesn't matter, we are one anyway; right?
Very interesting thread.. I especially like
Jabcat's posts on the Word! :2thumbs:
And was it
Lazarus who said there's likely many interpretations of 666, and mentioned the Bison?
I'm thinking there's been a few antiChrists, which were, were not and then were again.. The one we're most familiar with being the Roman Empire, (and
one, application of 666 is adding together the roman numerals at use at the time,1,5,10,50,100,500) then it wasn't, and then it was or became the Holy Roman Empire..
Most folks don't think of the League of Nations, was, then wasn't. It expired because the U.S didn't sign on after all, even though it was a u.s. president which dreamed it up, Woodrow Wilson. Then after the occurrences of 1945 over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the world was convinced to rebuild it as the u.n., and at which time was hailed as a new age. Definitely a new arrangement of powers, or a new day..
The two horned, as a bison, imo, fits as to a u.s. two horned/seat office, one which brought fire down upon the earth in the sight of men.. It's my opinion, the 'little' beast (rev 13:11-18) will step into the prime seat of the 'big' beast (1-10) giving it (finally) authority/breath. Daniel 9:27 "he makes a covenant for one week" (Strong's includes "league") - the two horned office pinpointing a place he will have been?
Quote from: BirdSong on April 11, 2013, 10:13:44 PM
QuoteOriginally Posted by Jabcat,
Birdsong, aka Illuin -
His wife jabcat :LH: Illuin told me this is the only forum worth joining. He has the stomach and the patience for debating in the "turn-or-burn" fundamentalist forums, but not me. He does help me format posts sometimes, but I pretty much know how to do that now.
Hi Birdsong! tell your husband posting straight scripture helps, as it's hard to argue so much with straight scripture...
Some of the things you posted have reminded me of the teaching that sunday worship is the mark of the beast.. but I have a hard time with that 1st, because it seems to me to be a voluntary mark, not clandestinely given or received.
..and it seems to me it's those without the seal of God on their forehead who receive the mark, not everyone upon earth..
2ndly, the Holy Roman Empire used God's Word, mostly by burning it and forbidding folks to read it.. And also what Jesus said about the church, "the gates of `hell`" (the grave, gehenna?) "will not prevail against it" - the church that is.. and even tho there's error - some of the GLORY of the GOOD NEWS has been lost, and some BAGGAGE picked up along the way, they are still our Lord's own.. surely? And don't forget, blindness in part has happened to Israel, so the gentiles would be grafted in..
Also to consider, perhaps is the method of execution carried out against those found not having the mark - in verse rev 20:4, is perhaps a clue as to who else may be involved in the modern day fulfillment. They being an ally, defended often as being peaceful (later coming to be harnessed?)
The harlot, if we examine the scriptures, imo, clearly shows who this one is, even in its final application. Again, she goes (is going) global (7 hills/continents). The Greek word translated "harlot" is "pornos" and "to sell".
Note how the (world) beast and the 10 kings/divisions which rule one (final) hour with him, will hate the harlot, raze her and devour her (R 17:12-18). (Extreme) socialism will finally devour (extreme) capitalism which embraced "pornos" to sell, sell, sell, and has by it enchanted and seduced the nations making them drunk, her forehead is all confusion/babble "responsible for ALLslain upon earth" since Earth's beginning - God has put it in their hearts (the 10 kings/divisions) to do so!
She has a golden cup of her side effects, murders, perversions, abortions?, sex slave trade?..
She is described of course in rev chapters 17 and 18. She made the merchants wealthy, and they will weep at her fall/crash (in one hour, but also in one day "all your towers will fall" Isaiah). The kings/politicians of the earth are in bed with her.. Her products are listed, right down to the bodies and lives of people.
:gsmile: Welcome to Tentmaker forums!
Here is a picture jab.... for the record. This was taken May 2012 - Illuin (Pete) and BirdSong (Jenny):
[attachment deleted by admin]
:) :thumbsup: I'm not posting a picture of me! :laugh:
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
:) :thumbsup: I'm not posting a picture of me! :laugh:
How come? Maybe it's me, but I think it's easier to talk to people in forums if you see them. Makes it more personable - like you're actually talking to a
"real person" instead of a computer screen. :Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on April 11, 2013, 11:17:47 PM
The harlot, if we examine the scriptures, imo, clearly shows who this one is, even in its final application. Again, she goes (is going) global (7 hills/continents). The Greek word translated "harlot" is "pornos" and "to sell".
Note how the (world) beast and the 10 kings/divisions which rule one (final) hour with him, will hate the harlot, raze her and devour her (R 17:12-18). (Extreme) socialism will finally devour (extreme) capitalism which embraced "pornos" to sell, sell, sell, and has by it enchanted and seduced the nations making them drunk, her forehead is all confusion/babble "responsible for ALLslain upon earth" since Earth's beginning - God has put it in their hearts (the 10 kings/divisions) to do so!
She has a golden cup of her side effects, murders, perversions, abortions?, sex slave trade?..
She is described of course in rev chapters 17 and 18. She made the merchants wealthy, and they will weep at her fall/crash (in one hour, but also in one day "all your towers will fall" Isaiah). The kings/politicians of the earth are in bed with her.. Her products are listed, right down to the bodies and lives of people.
Good insight, thanks. :thumbsup:
Quote from: BirdSong on April 11, 2013, 11:28:30 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
:) :thumbsup: I'm not posting a picture of me! :laugh:
How come? :Peace2:
haha, ok, this is as close as it comes. blessings.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/where-would-i-be-members'-songs/msg143790/#msg143790
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 11:31:21 PM
Quote from: BirdSong on April 11, 2013, 11:28:30 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
:) :thumbsup: I'm not posting a picture of me! :laugh:
How come? :Peace2:
haha, ok, this is as close as it comes. blessings.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/humor-poems-songs-movies/where-would-i-be-members'-songs/msg143790/#msg143790
Wow. Is that you? That is beautiful! Seriously. It made me cry. It really gives you
a real feeling of Christ's
TRUE unconditional love for everyone in a powerful way. Pete is also a musician, but
WILL NOT SING :sigh: He is an amazing jazz guitarist though, and still teaches part time - and he loves listening to
"other people" sing.
Really beautiful jab. And it's nice to see and
"hear" who I'm talking with.
:mblush:
:thanks:
awesome on the guitar playing..really cool!
QuoteOriginally Posted by marie glen,
The harlot, if we examine the scriptures, imo, clearly shows who this one is, even in its final application. Again, she goes (is going) global (7 hills/continents). The Greek word translated "harlot" is "pornos" and "to sell".
Note how the (world) beast and the 10 kings/divisions which rule one (final) hour with him, will hate the harlot, raze her and devour her (R 17:12-18). (Extreme) socialism will finally devour (extreme) capitalism which embraced "pornos" to sell, sell, sell, and has by it enchanted and seduced the nations making them drunk, her forehead is all confusion/babble "responsible for ALLslain upon earth" since Earth's beginning - God has put it in their hearts (the 10 kings/divisions) to do so!
She has a golden cup of her side effects, murders, perversions, abortions?, sex slave trade?..
She is described of course in rev chapters 17 and 18. She made the merchants wealthy, and they will weep at her fall/crash (in one hour, but also in one day "all your towers will fall" Isaiah). The kings/politicians of the earth are in bed with her.. Her products are listed, right down to the bodies and lives of people.
Interesting angle.
Very interesting.... :Chinscratch:
QuoteOriginally Posted by marie glen,
The two horned, as a bison, imo, fits as to a u.s. two horned/seat office, one which brought fire down upon the earth in the sight of men.. It's my opinion, the 'little' beast (rev 13:11-18) will step into the prime seat of the 'big' beast (1-10) giving it (finally) authority/breath. Daniel 9:27 "he makes a covenant for one week" (Strong's includes "league") - the two horned office pinpointing a place he will have been?
Really good insights Marie. :thumbsup:
Also interesting to note is that King James
(the 6th King of Scotland) was also the
1st King of England
(England and Scotland - i.e. - two horns). And it is interesting the
SECOND BEAST from the
EARTH (EARTH = carnal, natural man), who has
two horns "like" a lamb
("like" as in, "appears" to be like the Lamb of God - i.e. - in SHEEP'S CLOTHING), is a two horned
(two powers) beast - and there are
two powers in orthodox Christianity
(Catholic and Protestant).
Just some more thoughts.
...one has but to watch commercials.
selling a product.that have nothing to do with the sexes..become all about
sexual inuendo and lewdness..to see her merchandising. sex sells!!!!!!! Ticks me off! When I have always
bought a product..and liked it..then see a 'sexually driven' commercial..and stop buying it!!
rapid white...tooth bleaching gel..for one!! 5 minute tooth stain remover
Good reason to buy things generic! & Hope it's not sold via innuendo elsewhere! Ticks me off too, and throwing over decency laws has wrecked our society.
Quote from: marie glen on April 12, 2013, 03:49:57 AM
Good reason to buy things generic! & Hope it's not sold via innuendo elsewhere! Ticks me off too, and throwing over decency laws has wrecked our society.
I do not see our society as being wrecked. At least in the US, I think it's actually far better than it was even 50 years ago. Think about it, at the height of our so-called
"church going" morally responsible years, African Americans weren't allowed to sit in the front of the bus :doh:, and we were dropping nuclear weapons on innocent women and children :sigh:. On the whole, I believe we are maturing spiritually as a civilization. I personally am not offended by the innuendos in question. I really only see sin as not
"loving God and each other, as He loved us" (our only command). Granted, using sex to sell doesn't exactly qualify, but I personally do not see it as being determining factor in a society's spiritual evolution. It's just carnal humans doing what they do until God calls them. Wars and killing on the other hand.......well...... At least we are seeing the light as far as the barbarity of war - and we are infinitely more mature and enlightened in the civil rights arena. :thumbsup:
A recent post contained the following statement:
The bible, because of so many different interpretations and countless different 'WINDS (spirits) of doctrine,' has been used (and misused) to rule and kill more people than anything or anyone in human history, and it is still being used by the nations who worship it to go to war and kill.
This is simply not true. There were less people killed by what even remotely could be said to be "Christian" in the last 2,000 years, including the Crusades and the later Inquisition, than were killed in two years by the Aztecs for their religion. This, with much more, is in What If The Bible Had Never Been Written? by Dr. D. James Kennedy, a book I would promote as, at the least, an antidote to such faulty views of scripture.
Christians never had their own army. The closest, the Knights Templar, were mostly security guards for the Holy Land tours of their day. Over half the Christians worldwide in our day meet in their homes. Many of us reject Institutional Christianity as false brethren, the false vine and the false bride, even as Mystical Babylon and her daughters.
The problem is people don't read the Bible. Whether natural and unregenerated or quickened to newness of life by the Holy Ghost, to read Scripture as God has given it to us -- from the beginning of a book through to its end, and the books fall in groups -- this is the big solution to matters both religious and secular in our times. A marker at Genesis and another at Matthew, reading 2 chapters in the OT for every chapter in the NT, you'll read the NT approximately twice for every once you read the OT. This is the simplest plan I know.
The only two gifts more important than the Bible that God has given us is Himself, specially His son and the indwelling Holy Spirit, and each other.
The only clear reason people are not simply head over heels in love with the Bible and its wondrous effects in their lives is they just do not read it for themselves!!!
Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2013, 08:24:19 PM
Yes, thanks for the clarification Pete. That's helpful. I've been thinking about you and praying for you last night, and I was a little puzzled - because I saw elsewhere where you had posted something like "we need to pay attention to the Word of God", which in context, it seems like you were saying "the sayings, instructions, [including written] Words from God. So aha!, there's more to the story, and again, thanks for clarifying. I just don't know about the 66 vs. 49 books, haven't looked into it that much, and IMO, I think one would need to be VERY careful about deciding which ones to weed out :mshock: - maybe Dr. Martin is able to do that - but right now, I'm going to hold my reservations about that - I'm doubtful. I believe what Lazarus Short shared about the mathematical equation of the earliest manuscripts - on which BASICALLY MOST translations are based, is powerful stuff. I'm not ready to go tampering with it myself. Still, I believe some of the things you've clarified are helpful, thanks.
--------
Something I read the other night that really got my attention; When satan tempted Eve in the garden, and with Jesus in the desert - he didn't do a full frontal assault. He whispered things like "can it be true", "can you..", "it says...(while leaving out part of "what it says" - check it out - he only quoted part of a verse to make it what he wanted). In other words, he planted DOUBT.
I don't believe "the Bible" [more accurately, scripture] is meant to replace "Christ in you" either. However, I don't think it's even necessarily separated from "Christ in you", because of what I just posted in another thread - i.e., the logos of God at work in us, separating, dividing, cutting, etc., in the Greek means SAYINGS of God. So connectedly, God said the Holy Spirit spoke through holy men of old, and also that all scripture is inspired [GOD-BREATHED]. So my believe is, ANY thought, saying (spoken or written), and Jesus the Word made flesh in us, are all the Word of God and are to be handled with extreme care. Personally, I think it's very important to be sure we're identifying that it's how the carnal mind may HANDLE the Words of God, vs. the Message itself being "bad". :2c: "In the beginning was the logos.." God has many ways of passing that down to us.
Much to consider, I'm just not sure the scriptures have any real role in the Mark of the Beast. If so, I think it would be just in how certain people use them - or maybe more correctly, how satan in people twist and MIS-use them.
May we just simply trust Him more. Amen, blessings.
Hi Jabcat,
Here is an article/book that Dr. Martin wrote about "Restoring the Original Bible". Dr. Martin doesn't remove any books of the Bible just puts them in the right order.
http://askelm.com/restoring/index.asp
CHB
Quote from: marie glen on April 11, 2013, 11:17:47 PM
Hi Birdsong! tell your husband posting straight scripture helps, as it's hard to argue so much with straight scripture...
Hi Marie,
Thank you for the suggestion, even though he snorted
'hmmmph!!!' when I told him. He was sitting at his Mac in the other room this morning carrying on, hemin' and hawin' about some discussion in the forum, and I told him exactly what you said Marie.
He just said,
"Arrrrrrgghh!" then waved his hand like a bitter old man, and growled;
"Yeah riiiiiiigghhtt! No matter what passage from scripture you give them, they twist it into a threat or ultimatum from God."Teeheee :grin: He's from Brooklyn, NY and moved down South 3 years ago, so that's his way of saying,
"I love you." :laughing7:
Quote from: BirdSong on April 09, 2013, 12:13:19 AM
- Revelation 13:11 "And I saw another beast ascending up from the earth, and it had two horns, like a lamb; and it spake as a dragon."
That verse can be summarized as: ET
[quoute]The bible is used and misused to control the flocks of 38,000 denominations - who ALL think they know the truth. The bible, because of so many different interpretations and countless different 'WINDS (spirits) of doctrine,' has been used (and misused) to rule and kill more people than anything or anyone in human history, and it is still being used by the nations who worship it to go to war and kill.
"For the letter kills, the Spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)[/quote]I think that verse is often used for false teachings. "It's all spiritual". The perfect verse to shove Scripture aside and invent your own fantasy doctrine.
Imo that verse doesn't in the most miniscule part implies something bad about the Bible's written word. It's more like "Mankind is able to turn even the most holy thing in distructive perversion.
Jesus quoted extenisvly from the killing letters. Did He overlook some vital point?
QuoteThe bible is composed of 66 books - composed and assembled to control mankind (6).
7x7=49 books. Church has cut the OT into books that never exited at Jesus time. For example 1Kings and 2Kings didn't exist as seperate books during Jesus time.[/list]
Quote from: BirdSong on April 11, 2013, 10:14:46 AM
I must admit, when I first considered the idea, I wrote it off pretty quickly. However, the more I thought about it, it really does fit like a glove with Revelation 13, and deserves some more in-depth thought and prayer in my opinion.
It's not so much the bible IS the IMAGE itself that is worshipped (i.e. - - the IMAGE of the beast - the beast is the carnal, natural flesh man - the image of man = the image of the beast - as in 'man creating God in his own IMAGE.') But the bible is the "mark" - of a 'true believer' - and is also used to promote the fear doctrines of eternal torment, annihilation, etc. In times past, it was used to conquer and kill perhaps millions 'supposedly' in the name of God
The word image is disputed.
God created man in His image. Many are taught that means men look like God. Or have spirit, body and soul.
The other interpretation is that image is "imager" or "representative". Obviously that failed very early in Genesis. Jesus was a true image of God.