Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 01, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?
It's not about 144,000 . . .it's about 12,000 from every tribe . . .it's about 120 being the tithe of that 12,000 . . .it's about spiritual Jews, not literal. 12 = government . . .1,000 = divinity . . .a number multiplied into itself is divine completion of what that number represents. Nothing is meant to be taken at face value. It's all spiritually implied, metaphorically illustrated. This is why "let he that hath an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the churches" is repeated time and again . . .it's all spiritual.
Quote from: Nathan on May 02, 2009, 02:15:28 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 01, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?
It's not about 144,000 . . .it's about 12,000 from every tribe . . .it's about 120 being the tithe of that 12,000 . . .it's about spiritual Jews, not literal. 12 = government . . .1,000 = divinity . . .a number multiplied into itself is divine completion of what that number represents. Nothing is meant to be taken at face value. It's all spiritually implied, metaphorically illustrated. This is why "let he that hath an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the churches" is repeated time and again . . .it's all spiritual.
:cloud9: Now that was a good "nutshell" post.... :thumbsup: Blessings....
Blessed are your ears for they "hear" .........I agree, Nathan.
After you "hear" you just can't see it the way people used to
teach you, can you? Truth has a way of lasting. Enduring,
and strengthening you...God be praised!
While I generally agree Nathan, I try it out in other ways too, always seeking to have an open ear. One thing I figured out a few years ago was if there would come to be 144,000 people walking on the earth as Jesus walked, functioning in an hundredfold anointing...consider them evenly distributed over the whole earth according to population numbers in various countries. That would put something like 12,000 of them in the USA. Should that ever occur, things would never be the same again. Somehow we are looking for something like that to happen, the manifestation of the sons of God, sons being huis, mature inheritors standing in the full right of the family name "Jesus," the name to which all is subject.
I'm neither a dispensationalist nor a premillenialist, and my detectives are still at work on the book of Revelation, but I do believe that this brother, at this link, has some valid points about trying to spiritualize what's already spiritual: http://www.martinzender.com/spiritualizing_scripture.htm (http://www.martinzender.com/spiritualizing_scripture.htm)
Didn't catch myself talking like Yoda before posting this. Weird inverted grammar sometimes. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: reFORMer on May 02, 2009, 08:29:40 AMSomehow we are looking for something like that to happen, the manifestation of the sons of God, sons being huis, mature inheritors standing in the full right of the family name "Jesus," the name to which all is subject.
1Now I say, That the heir,
as long as he is a child (i.e. in love), differeth nothing from a servant,
though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (Galatians 4:1-2)
Quote from: Nathan on May 02, 2009, 02:15:28 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 01, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?
Not from you. Why always that: "I have no clue. It must be spiritual attitude?"
I hoped you would overlook this thread. Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply.
Quote from: reFORMer on May 02, 2009, 08:29:40 AM
I try it out in other ways too, always seeking to have an open ear. One thing I figured out a few years ago was if there would come to be 144,000 people walking on the earth as Jesus walked, functioning in an hundredfold anointing...consider them evenly distributed over the whole earth according to population numbers in various countries. That would put something like 12,000 of them in the USA. Should that ever occur, things would never be the same again.
The whole Bible is also history book.
Part of it where predictions that are fulfilled literaly. (History now)
Why should the yet unfulfilled part be always spiritually?
Did the 69 weeks of Daniel point to something spirital? Or was there also a real Jesus involved?
But because the 70 jubelee prophecy spoken at the end of the exodus is fulfilled in the past it must be spiritual only?
Weren't the apostles always traveling in pairs? (like witnesses)
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed
seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2009, 09:58:04 AMI hoped you would overlook this thread. Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply.
Genuinely laughing histerically over here, but as I regain my composure over that having perhaps been a tad bit more gruff than genuinely intended, considering cultural differences for a moment. Everybody please calm down on this thread and don't let this snowball. There's always room for everybody's input in this kind of setting. :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2009, 09:58:57 AM
Weren't the apostles always traveling in pairs? (like witnesses)
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
Very interesting...that's one of things, as Card says, "hidden in plain sight". Good find, WW.
Maybe this from J. Preston Eby will be another stone in the wall as we build this thread...the distinction he makes is helpful to me as I try to conceptualize this. He says,
"It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne..... Jesus said that to the overcomer it is granted to sit with Him in His throne, even as He overcame and is set down with His Father in His throne (Rev. 3:21; 21:7). Then in chapter twelve the manchild is caught up to God and to His throne and rules the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Later, in chapter fourteen, the 144,000 stand with the Lamb (who is in the midst of the throne) upon mount Zion...
The "great multitude," however, is not "on" the throne — it is "before" the throne of God and the Lamb! Neither do they "rule" or "reign" over anything, but they "serve" God day and night in His temple, and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They are a blessed company indeed! They are very near the throne, and dwell in the light of the throne, and in the presence of Him who sits upon the throne, and receive great and eternal and unspeakable blessings from the throne! They are the vast multitudes of the redeemed out of the age who have walked with God in a pure walk in the Spirit in the measure of light they had. And while they are a redeemed and sanctified and spiritual people, they are not the sons of God who reign with Christ upon His throne (144,000). They have not taken the spiritual steps that cause them to fully grow, mature, and progress all the way into God to become kings and priests. They have not attained unto the measure of the stature of the fullness Christ. Yet, they are the Lord's own people, precious in His eyes!
:cloud9: Yes, that was a good find WW. I never noticed that before, either. It takes everyone looking at this thing, doesn't it? :thumbsup:
So for my :2c: on the topic of spiritualizing (and yes, there'll be lots of that :laughing7: in this post). Anyway; of course, it's both literal AND spiritual; things literally happened. If they didn't, then we would have nothing to stand on. But the literal has a spiritual application, a spiritual message to those upon whom the ends of this age have come.
Angel means message or messages, and all of those spiritual messages are nothing less than angels appearing in our midst with a word that, if faith is mixed with it to receive it, like Mary, we will eventually birth the Son.
As the veil (like the bag of waters around a baby) that IS this literal Word, is being rent for us, we are peeking into spiritual truths that have been hidden for ages and from generations. And HE is glorious!
I just can't afford to listen to anything that speaks from a platform of "over-spiritualizing", quite simply because I need to overcome death. "Spiritualizing" is the nothing more than the revelation of Him being revealed in every possible facet.
If a jewel has one cut, one facet, that is imperfect, the light coming out of it is distorted, even "trapped" within it, and it does not refract the light properly and becomes cloudy and obscure.
Like a jewel being cut, every revelation that is of Him as He is in the NOW (that is NOT literal flesh/Word), cuts away at everything that is not, until eventually we'll see Him as He is, and then we'll be just like Him. That's metamorphosis and I want to be metamorphoed out of this body of death and translated into His, IN THIS LIFE, not the next.
We are NOT to be of those that have no hope of seeing THEIR dead raised.
Their dead = still being dead in sins and trespasses/still under the veil in some part (stillborn, as we all are until we bring Him to birth)...
BUT, we have been shown the hope, Christ (being revealed/birthed as the veil is rent) in us, the hope of glory who is going to raise OUR dead (our dead = having died to self).
If the dead are not raised, then we have no hope. The dead are raised by the veil being rent, and that veil is the understanding of the letter that Moses had, which had a type of glory, but whose glory was being done away with.
The veil must done away with, ie. the literal understanding has to fall (not to be cast away but to be the foundation rock) in favor of the understanding given by revelation of the Spirit, for it is the SPIRIT that IS Christ, that is being revealed.
And as long as THIS tabernacle/veil is yet standing, the new will not manifest. Blessings...
PS. Martin, I want to make it clear I am not speaking about YOU, I consider you a great blessing to the body, but I did borrow the term "over-spiritualizing" from your post. I am speaking in generalities in reference to any message about that.
Quote from: jabcat on May 02, 2009, 11:06:35 AM
"It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne
Sure 12 is a special number. It's not just luck there are 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 leptons, 12 quarks, 12 Fermions, 12 Bosons.
And most of them go in groups of 2.
Spiritual meaning. But also real touchable things.
7 also such a number. Spiritual meaning. But if you look between the timespan of many events an prophesies you see 7 popping up in real historical dates.
Quote..... Jesus said that to the overcomer it is granted to sit with Him in His throne,
What is 'the'? Every overcomer or a selection from it?
Verses seems to indicate a selection.
Firstly ofcourse the "before the throne" people.
This verse cuts down the numbers also:
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The next verses are less direct.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
=> Here we have 4 angels positioned in the north, east, south, west restraining the winds.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw
another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
=> No the focus is on the angel in the east.
=> This angel that restrains the wind makes a request to other angels that have a 'job of wrath'
=> Note that there are only 4 angels restraining the wind. A fifth is speaking. In the east
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
=> I think it's safe to assume 'the servants' are the 144.000
=> After the sealing the winds are no longer restrained I guess.
But why only the angel in the east asked the other 4 angels to wait until the sealing was done?
Was the only sealing be done in the east? Meaning 144.000 being in the east. What we find in the east?
I think it's kinda sure muslims aren't sealed. So what about Israel?
Are the 144.000 all Isrealites or others that are in Israel at that moment?
Quote from: Cardinal on May 02, 2009, 11:32:07 AM
:cloud9: Yes, that was a good find WW. I never noticed that before, either. It takes everyone looking at this thing, doesn't it? :thumbsup:
So for my :2c: on the topic of spiritualizing (and yes, there'll be lots of that :laughing7: in this post).
That's my fear.
QuoteAnyway; of course, it's both literal AND spiritual; things literally happened. If they didn't, then we would have nothing to stand on. But the literal has a spiritual application, a spiritual message to those upon whom the ends of this age have come.
The red part is exactly my point.
I know of myself I do understand only a very small part of the spiritual things in the Bible. I never claimed otherwise.
But I doubt that those who don't understand literal things understand the spiritual things. (that diffrent from think they understand)
Can the spiritual things be understood if you don't even understand the literal things? As you wrote Cardinal a foundation.
The Bible can be used as a history book. I aligns perfectly with archeology. Not always but alteron archeolist changed their views and aligned with the Bible.
Weren't
all events and fulfilled prophesies really 100% literal.
Note: that I'm
not saying that inside/below those literal thing are not a number of spiritual layers hidden.
Back to Cardinals foundation (war paint for some women :laughing7:)
The written word itself is also a foundation. I mean that literal. Paper and inkt.
We all know what happens if that goes wrong. Doctrines (spritual) build on the wrong foundation of 'for ever' 'fire' 'hell'
Were animal sacrifices real? Yes. Did they have a spiritual meaning? Yes. Was it ok for God if no sacrifice was made and people really thought about the spirutal part? No.
When God was dictating all kind of detailed measurement for things His people should build was He speaking about spiritual things too? Yes. Was it ok if the Jews build it the way that they liked it? No.
So perhaps God not everything is spiritual afteral....
:cloud9: WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 02, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
:cloud9: WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you... :thumbsup:
does the spiritual, have any truth to it?? what i mean by that; is so many here see the spiritual, yet don't see the same thing. i find that amazing. sometimes i think the true "spiritual" is like what sparrow so efficiently does in her posts is convey;
God is love. He has his best interest for you. Trust Him. If the word doesn't make sense based on this, who cares;
HE IS LOVE.
Zeek, the "word" is multiple faceted even to one person. Like
taking off the layers of an onion peel to me. I have been studying
for years and yet I saw something last week that I'd never seen
before. Now that I have seen it, I find it's all over the Bible.
How did I ever miss that? God allowed me to. So just because
people see different aspects at different times, it is like the Bible
itself, it is NOT written chronologically. And it does take the
Spirit to speak the RAYMA of it to us. Otherwise all we have is
letter. But if you fill your waterpot up enough with the "water"
of the Word, the day comes when Jesus turns that "water" into
wine.
Concerning the numbers, now "I" have a question. I know you
all know that Elijah when he thought he was "alone" had God
to tell him, "no, you're not the only one." "I have a remnant
of 7,000 that have not bowed to Baal. Now my question is
this: Where in the scripture are those 7,000 mentioned again?
They have got to stand for remnant but is there any other
reference?
How many times would you have to multiply 7,000 to get a
certain number? say for instance, the 144,000?
Cardinal?
Anyone?
:cloud9: Exactly, Red.......every rhema Word I've ever had was like that. You think, how did I not see it? But as you said, it's all in His timing. He is the Lord of the harvest.
As for the 7000, all He's given me on that is the 7th day obviously is the 7th 1000 year day, so therefore it's 7000. Perfection (7) times the mark of the Spirit (10 X 10 X 10, dimension of Holy of Holies) = 7000. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 02, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
:cloud9: WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you... :thumbsup:
I have no frustration about unable to understand things. If I was I would have very bad life because I don't have a masters degree in every profession...
My frustration is that everything gets bent to spiritual when that wasn't the question. I clearly asked about the numbers.
Now there is no harm in pointing out 144,000=12*12,000 if that's part of the puzzle.
I choose to ignore long ago. But such a frontal attack....well lets say I don't have that forgiving spirit of Jesus....
Cardinal, just to let you know...I really am blessed by your reply #12.
also...
Not just 7000; but, adding Jesus' life into it, 7033, which is a very significant number.
Back to carnal business now.....
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
Note: I'm comparing not stating they are the same...
72 is 144000
2 by 2 = 2 witnesses
into every town = every Biblical nation (72)
where he himself= ????
The green part seems obvious. Jesus. But the 144.000 are starting way before Jesus.
Plus are there a 'special 2 witnesses' The two that can do miracles a die? (only 2 witnesses are reported to die)
The blue part.... about the Ark.
Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
Kinda long shot but what if I say the animals enter 2 by 2 to receive salvation
The witnesses go out 2 by to bring salvation
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
The weird thing is that the witnesses are clean and the beast that go in 2 by 2 are unclean...
Finally what exactly is a witness.
Someone that spreads the Word of God I would say.
But when the GWT takes place people are judged. And in a courtroom there are witnesses..... :blah:
Quote from: reFORMer on May 02, 2009, 10:38:09 PM
Cardinal, just to let you know...I really am blessed by your reply #12.
also...
Not just 7000; but, adding Jesus' life into it, 7033, which is a very significant number.
:cloud9: Great :thumbsup: So what have you seen about 7033? Blessings....
:cloud9: WW, I'm just going to touch on the witness part of your post, with a few thoughts.
*Two is the number of witness in God's master plan.
*The core principle of witness is agreement; 2 agree on something.
*It takes 2 to make a covenant.
*It takes 2 witnesses to convict anyone in God's court system.
*The creation and the natural Word are the same; both are witnesses for His Spirit from which everything originated from, ie. the Word that is Spirit. This is why the Word says in that day they shall have no excuse; because all the heavens (natural realm is a "heaven" too) declare or show openly, His glory/nature and principles.
They are as His "wife"/helpmeet; they witness/agree with what is Eternal, and because they came out of or were created out of His Spirit, as Eve was brought out of Adam.
*There were 2 tablets of stone (half dealing with relationship with God, half dealing with man's relationship to man)
*There are 2 "stones" on men. If the priests had a broken "stone", they were disqualified from service.
*Jesus said the fulfillment of the law (both tablets of stones) were that we love God and our neighbor as ourselves; in these TWO, are all the 10 fulfilled. The Spirit of God is what makes that possible, by giving us a heart of (celestial) flesh, ie. Christ IN us, the hope of glory. Blessings....
face to face...witness
A N D . . .
biologically
2 indicates reproduction of higher forms of life which can be called mutiplication
when "made of the twain one," 2=1, then 1x1=3
2 become 1
3 in 1
4=1 world
5=1 work of grace
6 (?)
7=1 complete set
About the 72 I have to say many translations use 70 so I started a little search.
Wikipedia
QuoteThis is the only mention of the group in the Bible. The number is seventy in manuscripts in the Alexandrian (such as Codex Sinaiticus) and Caesarean text traditions but seventy-two in most other Alexandrian and Western texts. It may derive from the 70 nations of Genesis or the many other 70 in the Bible, or the 72 translators of the Septuagint from the Letter of Aristeas.[2] In translating the Vulgate, Jerome selected the reading of seventy-two.
Another theory found. These 3 languages helped spread the word most.
Hebrew 22 letters
Greek 24 characters
English 26 characters.
---------------------------+
Total 72 characters.
Looks good until you considers that the letter "J" is quite new in the English language
Dunno, but I would be suprise 1 more letter is added. Then the total would be 70.
Not the strongest theory if you ask me.
More convincing is:
QuoteSeveral other occasions concerning this number: We have 70 elders chosen in Numbers 11:14-17 to assist Moses. These 70, plus Aaron and Moses equal 72 - the 72 who spoke on God's behalf to the people. Also there were 72 ornaments on the Menorah in the Tabernacle - a symbol of Light- and the oil in it, the Holy Spirit. Also, there were said to be 72 separate pieces of the veil in the Temple which separated the Holy place from the Most Holy Place. All these speak of the transmission of God's message.
Additionally, the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint was said to have been translated by 72 Hebrew Scholors (six from each tribe) in 72 days....again a transmission of God's message.
Something else, pertinent in our time - the priestly garments are being remade for Temple service. The garment of the High Priest has brass bells and pomogrants woven into its hem. Interestingly, they have decided that 72 of each, alternating around the hem will be used...
Cardinal, reFORMer, all,
I think there is a strong agreement that the witnesses travel in pairs. (2)
The 72 I was totally unaware of until I found that verse.
A quick look back at the time of Jesus
1x1=1 Jesus
6x2=12 Apostles sent out in pairs
36x2=72 Disicples sent out in pairs
Before I even opened a Bible I knew about the 2 witnesses from movies.
2 witnesses that sounds like, erm.... 2
But does it mean they travel/appear/preach in pairs?
In Revelation we find
144000 sealed people. They are not just quickly mentioned. They are really part of the 'plot' of Revelation.
So my main question was and still is: What is the task of those people?
a] Get sealed hide. Then hide in a cave and wait for Jesus?
b] Active part in some way. Like forming pairs and swarm out over the earth like the 72 did
Quote from: Redlettervoice on May 02, 2009, 09:09:05 PM
"I have a remnant
of 7,000 that have not bowed to Baal. Now my question is
this: Where in the scripture are those 7,000 mentioned again?
They have got to stand for remnant but is there any other
reference?
How many times would you have to multiply 7,000 to get a
certain number? say for instance, the 144,000?
Not so many verses with 7000 in it. Most of them are to decribe the strengh of armies. The remaining verses:
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
2 Chronicles 15:11 And they offered unto the LORD the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep.
Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Thanks for looking those up, WW. I didn't figure there were many.
I still don't know what I know about this. ha
Have to wait til God enlightens.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 03, 2009, 08:11:46 AM
More convincing is:
Several other occasions concerning this number: We have 70 elders chosen in Numbers 11:14-17 to assist Moses. These 70, plus Aaron and Moses equal 72 - the 72 who spoke on God's behalf to the people. Also there were 72 ornaments on the Menorah in the Tabernacle - a symbol of Light- and the oil in it, the Holy Spirit. Also, there were said to be 72 separate pieces of the veil in the Temple which separated the Holy place from the Most Holy Place. All these speak of the transmission of God's message.
Additionally, the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint was said to have been translated by 72 Hebrew Scholars (six from each tribe) in 72 days....again a transmission of God's message.
Something else, pertinent in our time - the priestly garments are being remade for Temple service. The garment of the High Priest has brass bells and pomegranates woven into its hem. Interestingly, they have decided that 72 of each, alternating around the hem will be used...
:cloud9: I can definitely see this WW. Thanks for digging this up. A another note about the 2's. The foundation of the church is built upon the Apostle and Prophet. IMO, this is why He sent them out in 2's. I believe that the anointing present in each one, manifested itself in ways specific to each gift, because they were being used to build a foundation.
This is why I see that. The Word comes with power. They could have gone all day long talking to the people, who had "heard it all" from the myriads of Greek philosophers who did nothing but talk all day in the "town square". The people they were talking to were not going to be persuaded by mere words, anymore than people are today. But when the anointing manifests itself in various ways pertinent to the situation, now THAT is something that garners immediate attention. Blessings...
Compare (Rev. 11:9) to (Psalms 79:1-3). it says in (Rev. 13:4) that the two witnesses are "the two olive trees and the two candlesticks" standing before the God of the whole earth. The same scene is spoken of in (Zech. 4:3) (Zech 4:11-14) Verse 14 explains who these two olive trees are. (Verse 14) "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, {or sons of oil} that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". (Joshua 3 speaks). Aaron's sons were the two olive trees. Or two witnesses. (Ex. 28:40-41)
If there are two witnesses that appear at the end they will have to be desendents of Aaron's sons (Ex. 29:28-29).
Any one else see these things?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 03, 2009, 10:05:15 PM
If there are two witnesses that appear at the end they will have to be desendents of Aaron's sons (Ex. 29:28-29).
I think they were Zerubbabel the king and Joshua the high priest. There is no point in some latter day descendants after the flesh. "The flesh profits nothing. It is the spirit that gives life." It could follow that there are spiritual correlaries. Aaron means "enlightend." He did not take the priesthood unto himself, but was appointed by God; etc.
:cloud9: To me, the key is in the word "candlestick". The candlestick that stood before God was in the inner court, before God meaning, in front of the entrance to the Holy of Holies. We know that spirutually speaking, the candlestick is the Lord, but for there to be two, to me, would mean, the Lord (1) and His true body on the earth (2).
But I can't say I received this from the Spirit (quickened as revelation) to me, only that, to me, that is what it appears to be. If He gives me something I'm not afraid to say it, but if He hasn't, I'm not afraid to say that, either. Blessings.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2009, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 02, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
:cloud9: WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you... :thumbsup:
I have no frustration about unable to understand things. If I was I would have very bad life because I don't have a masters degree in every profession...
My frustration is that everything gets bent to spiritual when that wasn't the question. I clearly asked about the numbers.
Now there is no harm in pointing out 144,000=12*12,000 if that's part of the puzzle.
I choose to ignore long ago. But such a frontal attack....well lets say I don't have that forgiving spirit of Jesus....
WW, I'm a bit taken back by the venom in your reactions against me. It's no secret that you and Martin both see things from a different point of view. I was under the impression that this forum was one that was considered as "open". But apparently that's not always the case after all. It baffles me that you openly claim your status as athieist and yet your the one that goes on the attack against someone who openly claims not just belief, but intimacy with the very thing you claim you don't believe in. If you don't believe in God, then how is it you can be so confident in telling me I'm in the wrong?
Everyone has their own belief of what they think something means. I was just sharing mine . .and what you were probably sensing was my frustration in the perception that taking things "spiritually" is a bad thing or an inaccurate rendition. When that is the very thing that we're "called" to do. Perhaps my tenure here on the forum is coming to a close. If people are beginning to post their thoughts "hoping" that I not respond, then what good are my posts, except fuel for others to use in their condemnations against me?
I have personally been in the study of Revelation for about 5 years straight now . . .I have literally written thousands of pages, most of that transcribed from a series preached by another man, but it was enough to transform my own thinking in the process. I have taught on those tapes (34 of them in total) and it took a little over 2 years . .only to have the class I taught request that we go through them all over again . . .and it's now at the point to where the notes are not being used, we simply open the Scriptures and go.
In all of the time, energy and thought that we've put in and received from over the last 5 years, we still have not yet scratched the surface of it all. So by no means do I see myself as an authority on this book, nor do I feel that there is "anyone" on this forum or anywhere else that is an "authority" on this topic . . .which is to say that none of us really have the right to point our fingers at another and proclaim who is more right or wrong.
Revelation of something is not knowledge, it is experience. Learning the literal understanding is not experience, it is knowledge. When these two are in the proper order, truth births from them, when they are not, division results. I'm not about to try to force what I see into your eyes, nor do I want to choose to condemn you for purposefully closing your eyes to what I see.
It's sad to see a conversation about something that's intended to bring light and freedom, instead bring dissention and condemnation. If I am at fault for this . . .I apologize.
:cloud9: I, for one, sincerely hope you do not leave us. Blessings...
I encourage both of you to talk this out in a civil, respectful manner. If done as such, both parties being willing to listen and grow, it could be of great benefit to many. If not, then we won't have any :swordfight: or :Shoot: around here :icon_jokercolor:. That's never happened, and it never will :Yeahright: :doh:.
TM family, let's pray for both these guys as God moves in their lives.
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2009, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2009, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 02, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
:cloud9: WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you... :thumbsup:
I have no frustration about unable to understand things. If I was I would have very bad life because I don't have a masters degree in every profession...
My frustration is that everything gets bent to spiritual when that wasn't the question. I clearly asked about the numbers.
Now there is no harm in pointing out 144,000=12*12,000 if that's part of the puzzle.
I choose to ignore long ago. But such a frontal attack....well lets say I don't have that forgiving spirit of Jesus....
WW, I'm a bit taken back by the venom in your reactions against me. It's no secret that you and Martin both see things from a different point of view. I was under the impression that this forum was one that was considered as "open". But apparently that's not always the case after all. It baffles me that you openly claim your status as athieist and yet your the one that goes on the attack against someone who openly claims not just belief, but intimacy with the very thing you claim you don't believe in. If you don't believe in God, then how is it you can be so confident in telling me I'm in the wrong?
Everyone has their own belief of what they think something means. I was just sharing mine . .and what you were probably sensing was my frustration in the perception that taking things "spiritually" is a bad thing or an inaccurate rendition. When that is the very thing that we're "called" to do. Perhaps my tenure here on the forum is coming to a close. If people are beginning to post their thoughts "hoping" that I not respond, then what good are my posts, except fuel for others to use in their condemnations against me?
I have personally been in the study of Revelation for about 5 years straight now . . .I have literally written thousands of pages, most of that transcribed from a series preached by another man, but it was enough to transform my own thinking in the process. I have taught on those tapes (34 of them in total) and it took a little over 2 years . .only to have the class I taught request that we go through them all over again . . .and it's now at the point to where the notes are not being used, we simply open the Scriptures and go.
In all of the time, energy and thought that we've put in and received from over the last 5 years, we still have not yet scratched the surface of it all. So by no means do I see myself as an authority on this book, nor do I feel that there is "anyone" on this forum or anywhere else that is an "authority" on this topic . . .which is to say that none of us really have the right to point our fingers at another and proclaim who is more right or wrong.
Revelation of something is not knowledge, it is experience. Learning the literal understanding is not experience, it is knowledge. When these two are in the proper order, truth births from them, when they are not, division results. I'm not about to try to force what I see into your eyes, nor do I want to choose to condemn you for purposefully closing your eyes to what I see.
It's sad to see a conversation about something that's intended to bring light and freedom, instead bring dissention and condemnation. If I am at fault for this . . .I apologize.
Hey Nathan, I'd be interested to find out more about that preaching/teaching series on Revelation you mentioned.
The thing I liked about that Zender article is that he attempts to bring the balance of looking for both a literal and spiritual interpretation (although leaning toward literal). His rule of thumb in a nutshell is: literal whenever possible, as that's often spiritual enough. Having said that though, he does appear to have premil dispy leanings, which is rather unusual for us UR types, but it takes many varied parts to make a body.
I don't agree with everything he says, but he does make some good points.
Doc, you'd have to send me your email . . .I have it all on a memory stick. To print it off, it's about 900 pages . . .
I don't argue the fact that there is a literal interpretation, but for me, the literal understanding was literally for those to whom it was originally written to. There are just too many passages that speak about the fact that my mind is not to be relied on for me to then turn around and embrace what my mind has imagined to be truth.
Flesh profiteth nothing . . .lean not on your understanding . . .take captive your thoughts . .your mind is always at emnity with God.. . on and on . .the Peter experience was not about man incorporating his mind to understand the nature of God . .but it was about God simply revealing . . .unveiling Truth . . .my mind is the veil . . .the "unveiling" is the removal of my own mind, my natural reasoning and logic. . . Jesus even went so far to even acknowledge not only does truth come by way of revelation, but "flesh and blood does/can not teach it".
It seems part of the problem with people's response . .not just here on the forum, but in other venues as well . . .is that people tend to rely on "proof" in Scripture to justify/verify what is being seen. And for me, that was never the intended purpose for Scripture. I think if I see something that Scripture clearly opposes, then there can be problems . .but just because Scripture may not clearly address the issue is not grounds to throw out the issue.
I guess in many of these discussions, I struggle in seeing the overall purpose of pursuing the literal or natural understanding . . . what is the end result of knowing "who" the two witnesses were, if we're convinced they are two literal, physical people? What benefit is there in knowing distinctly who the 144,000 are . . .if we're convinced they also are literal people? How does that fit in the overall purpose of God's relationship with me . . .and when I pursue the natural understanding, I just don't see the benefit. In fact, I sense just the opposite . . .I sense it's a road that leads to division and misinterpretation.
Scripture warns us to avoid such conversations all together. I'm not saying we're not to discuss things, I'm saying we're warned about pursuing conversations that lead to nowhere at best, and lead to division and condemnation at worst. Using Scripture as proof for what I beleive to be truth against what you believe to be truth is not walking in faith, it's walking in knowledge . . .dust is the serpents meat . . .when I embrace my mind's ability to imagine what truth is, I become the diet of the enemy I'm to be a conqueror over.
I again, apologize if I've caused people to think that I'm superior over them. I know how words written can be received much differently than they were given and I didn't mean to give them as a club trying to beat others into submission. I went back and reread my original post on this thread and when I wrote it, it wasn't intended to set up an argument, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment about how I saw an open-ended question getting a variety of open-ended answers . . .everyone will have their own opinion of what they think the answer is . . .that was the only point I was attempting to make . .and then I went on in sharing what my POV was.
And by the response of WW's posts and Martin's laughter at it, I sense that this one response by me was not where this contention began, but I feel there's a peg I've been pinned to concerning my outlandish comments and opinions.
So that brings me to a crossroads. Do I continue making my remarks, knowing that those who post the most are going to disagree with pretty much all that I say? Or should I just bow out and let the forum continue on without my opposing point of views constantly instigating arguments. Because truthfully, if you read all that I've posted historically, the message has been pretty much the same and I don't see it changing any time soon if I were to remain. This is why I stated that perhaps my tenure here is coming to a close.
Either way Doc, send me your email and I'll be happy to share with you what I've written/transcribed.
Blessings.
hi nathan...i enjoy your posts.please keep continuing
i always enjoy cardinals response "i will have to think about that"...maybe thats how we all should respond when we have a different take on things...
blessings everyone :icon_king:
Quote from: Nathan on May 05, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
I went back and reread my original post on this thread and when I wrote it, it wasn't intended to set up an argument, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment about how I saw an open-ended question getting a variety of open-ended answers . . .everyone will have their own opinion of what they think the answer is . . .that was the only point I was attempting to make . .and then I went on in sharing what my POV was.
And by the response of WW's posts and Martin's laughter at it, I sense that this one response by me was not where this contention began, but I feel there's a peg I've been pinned to concerning my outlandish comments and opinions.
So that brings me to a crossroads. Do I continue making my remarks, knowing that those who post the most are going to disagree with pretty much all that I say? Or should I just bow out and let the forum continue on without my opposing point of views constantly instigating arguments. Because truthfully, if you read all that I've posted historically, the message has been pretty much the same and I don't see it changing any time soon if I were to remain. This is why I stated that perhaps my tenure here is coming to a close.
I thought your original comment was gibing the topic, not the one who brought it up. I found it incisive and humorous. I thought the same of WW's comment about you. Your being "pegged" only seems to mean to me that the thought of you in relation to a topic produces an inspiration to awareness as your own. What a gift! While it'll enlarge, it will even more so if you don't allow yourself to be overburdened by it. Like, don't leave, offended by your own gift...and, I really like a little spice on the tongue. Why do we have to take the "fizz" out of everything to get along?!
Quote from: reFORMer on May 05, 2009, 08:28:18 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 05, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
I went back and reread my original post on this thread and when I wrote it, it wasn't intended to set up an argument, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment about how I saw an open-ended question getting a variety of open-ended answers . . .everyone will have their own opinion of what they think the answer is . . .that was the only point I was attempting to make . .and then I went on in sharing what my POV was.
And by the response of WW's posts and Martin's laughter at it, I sense that this one response by me was not where this contention began, but I feel there's a peg I've been pinned to concerning my outlandish comments and opinions.
So that brings me to a crossroads. Do I continue making my remarks, knowing that those who post the most are going to disagree with pretty much all that I say? Or should I just bow out and let the forum continue on without my opposing point of views constantly instigating arguments. Because truthfully, if you read all that I've posted historically, the message has been pretty much the same and I don't see it changing any time soon if I were to remain. This is why I stated that perhaps my tenure here is coming to a close.
I thought your original comment was gibing the topic, not the one who brought it up. I found it incisive and humorous. I thought the same of WW's comment about you. Your being "pegged" only seems to mean to me that the thought of you in relation to a topic produces an inspiration to awareness as your own. What a gift! While it'll enlarge, it will even more so if you don't allow yourself to be overburdened by it. Like, don't leave, offended by your own gift...and, I really like a little spice on the tongue. Why do we have to take the "fizz" out of everything to get along?!
Did I read you right bro? You thought WW was trying to be humorous? I think it's post #7 that I refer to in that he hoped I would not respond . .and that I dump poison . . . it didn't read humorous . . . and it did sting . . . caught me off guard is all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 02, 2009, 09:58:04 AM
Quote from: Nathan on May 02, 2009, 02:15:28 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 01, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?
Not from you. Why always that: "I have no clue. It must be spiritual attitude?"
I hoped you would overlook this thread. Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply.
Sorry Nathan, I didn't remember he said that "poison" bit, as this quote shows: "Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply." I only remembered that it seemed humorous to me. I don't understand what he really objects to in your perspective since it doesn't prevent other points of view. It's seeing things from alternative aspects of awareness that is so enriching to me.
:cloud9: Nathan, I don't mean to speak for WW, but I surmise that he took your first sentence with the question, as being cutting, to HIM. I was a little taken aback by it when I read it, because I didn't "get" it either, and it on the surface, it looked like you were being sharp with him.
The only reason I knew you weren't, is because I know your personality now enough to know; that just wouldn't be the motive of your heart. But if I read it without knowing that, and especially if English was not my first language, that might be a different story.
It's hard sometimes to say things on this medium, without the hearer being able to see our facial expressions, or the tonal inflections in our voice. We rely unconsciously on both, more than we realize. I have said things jokingly in years past, on boards that didn't have smilies and was shocked to find that people took it seriously and were offended. Thank God for smilies!
But the important thing is; we're all family here, and sometimes family has misunderstandings. I don't think there's anyone on this board that has any terminally ill feelings towards anyone else, even though there are bound to be disagreements and misunderstandings, as He's bringing us together from so many different backgrounds, nationalities, and viewpoints. But everyone on this board, God's Spirit brought here, and speaking personally, it grieves me when anyone leaves. It's no accident you're here either, and I hope you don't leave. Blessings....
No, I don't plan on leaving . . .I was just questioning my own purpose . . . I didn't realize that my original response could come off that way I guess. And I do like the subject matter when dealing with Genesis or Revelation . . . and I do so enjoy seeing the . . . I don't even know for sure the "unoffensive" terminology to use because what I see as spiritual, others get irritated because they see it as something else. I "call" it spiritual because that's what I believe it is . . .it didn't come through flesh and blood so that kind of narrows things down as to what it actually is to me.
But it still puts me in awe when these revelatory things fall into place and you can see how everything fits together. So when the questions are raised . . .and truth be told, I guess I did know, or at least had an idea what "kind" of answer WW was originally looking for when he posed the question . . .and I also figured that my point of view is not the answer that he is looking for as his responses are often implying that it's a cop out answer to say that if you want to really understand it, you need to see it spiritually . . .
But as I did mention earlier, is this not the direction we are called to walk in? We're not called to walk in the flesh or in our own way of thinking, or in the way others have taught us to think, but we're "supposed" to walk in the spirit . . all things are spiritual . .everything written has spiritual truth that lies beneath.
Keys are given plainly so that we can enter into the rooms of truth that aren't so plainly seen. By that I mean, numbers, colors, elements . . .all of them actually symbolize other things . . .
Duet. 21:23; Gal. 3:13
"Cursed is any man that hangs from a tree . . ." Is that why Jesus hung on a cross? Or could it also mean that trees are symolic for individual men . . .and anything that hangs from a tree is cursed . . .anything that originates from man is cursed. "I" am a tree . .anything that I manifest that identifies with my flesh is cursed.
There is an inheritance that awaits us, but we defile our land, our inheritance, when we reproduce our nature as our fruit rather than his nature in us. For me, the curse is the inability to experience the revelation of the Father due to the fruit of our nature veiling it from our understanding
Deut 21
23 his corpse (carnal identity) shall not hang all night (preparation for the rising of the Sun) on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day(is not Christ the "day"?) (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance
Quote from: Nathan on May 05, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
Doc, you'd have to send me your email . . .I have it all on a memory stick. To print it off, it's about 900 pages . . .
I don't argue the fact that there is a literal interpretation, but for me, the literal understanding was literally for those to whom it was originally written to. There are just too many passages that speak about the fact that my mind is not to be relied on for me to then turn around and embrace what my mind has imagined to be truth.
Flesh profiteth nothing . . .lean not on your understanding . . .take captive your thoughts . .your mind is always at emnity with God.. . on and on . .the Peter experience was not about man incorporating his mind to understand the nature of God . .but it was about God simply revealing . . .unveiling Truth . . .my mind is the veil . . .the "unveiling" is the removal of my own mind, my natural reasoning and logic. . . Jesus even went so far to even acknowledge not only does truth come by way of revelation, but "flesh and blood does/can not teach it".
It seems part of the problem with people's response . .not just here on the forum, but in other venues as well . . .is that people tend to rely on "proof" in Scripture to justify/verify what is being seen. And for me, that was never the intended purpose for Scripture. I think if I see something that Scripture clearly opposes, then there can be problems . .but just because Scripture may not clearly address the issue is not grounds to throw out the issue.
I guess in many of these discussions, I struggle in seeing the overall purpose of pursuing the literal or natural understanding . . . what is the end result of knowing "who" the two witnesses were, if we're convinced they are two literal, physical people? What benefit is there in knowing distinctly who the 144,000 are . . .if we're convinced they also are literal people? How does that fit in the overall purpose of God's relationship with me . . .and when I pursue the natural understanding, I just don't see the benefit. In fact, I sense just the opposite . . .I sense it's a road that leads to division and misinterpretation.
Scripture warns us to avoid such conversations all together. I'm not saying we're not to discuss things, I'm saying we're warned about pursuing conversations that lead to nowhere at best, and lead to division and condemnation at worst. Using Scripture as proof for what I beleive to be truth against what you believe to be truth is not walking in faith, it's walking in knowledge . . .dust is the serpents meat . . .when I embrace my mind's ability to imagine what truth is, I become the diet of the enemy I'm to be a conqueror over.
I again, apologize if I've caused people to think that I'm superior over them. I know how words written can be received much differently than they were given and I didn't mean to give them as a club trying to beat others into submission. I went back and reread my original post on this thread and when I wrote it, it wasn't intended to set up an argument, it was a tongue-in-cheek comment about how I saw an open-ended question getting a variety of open-ended answers . . .everyone will have their own opinion of what they think the answer is . . .that was the only point I was attempting to make . .and then I went on in sharing what my POV was.
And by the response of WW's posts and Martin's laughter at it, I sense that this one response by me was not where this contention began, but I feel there's a peg I've been pinned to concerning my outlandish comments and opinions.
So that brings me to a crossroads. Do I continue making my remarks, knowing that those who post the most are going to disagree with pretty much all that I say? Or should I just bow out and let the forum continue on without my opposing point of views constantly instigating arguments. Because truthfully, if you read all that I've posted historically, the message has been pretty much the same and I don't see it changing any time soon if I were to remain. This is why I stated that perhaps my tenure here is coming to a close.
Either way Doc, send me your email and I'll be happy to share with you what I've written/transcribed.
Blessings.
Ok, I'll PM you my e-mail. Thanks.
:cloud9: I'd like to have that study, too, Nathan. My email is on my profile. Blessings...
OK, :2c: from the Peanut Gallery. This is my current conclusion(s). There are both the literal and the spiritual, opposite perspectives, and then mixtures of both POV's. IMO, there's a reason for both. I think the problems often come in when we state our views as absolutes rather than opinions/understandings....also, this medium is very difficult sometimes within which to clearly express OUR INTENT...so IMO, we almost have to be OVERLY-cautious, because it's SO easy to be misinterpreted/mis-perceived. One person's silly sense of humor can be interpreted as things like arrogant, cutting, etc.
So, my thought is that we need all views, as long as they're in agreement/not conflictual with clear scripture...we can learn from each other, grow from others' perspectives, as long as we're careful in how we present it..."in honour, preferring one another"...because it's just real hard sometimes to judge intent. Sometimes I've needed to go back and clarify, or ask for a clarification. And no, I'm not mad :laughing7:.
The two wittness or sons of oil are Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
if you remember Jesus said 'he will lead you into all things
concerning me' Card you spoke of His body being the secound
wittness,and I reckon that the Holy spirit with them is what
makes them as partakers with His body.
The Holy spirit also acts in a preistly manner to us,interceding
for us with God /the Holy spirit bears wittness with us that we
are sons of God Romans 8;26 In the same way the spirit helps
us in our weakness,we do not know what we ought to pray
for,but the spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that
words can not express.And he who searches our hearts knows
the mind of the spirit,BECAUSE THE SPIRIT INTERCEDES FOR
THE SAINTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH GOD'S WILL .
Actually the Holy Ghost is Pravuil; Ezekiel speaks of him as
observing him as the writer with the inkhorn...he is instructed
to go about the city and put a mark on the forehead of those
who greive and lament over all the detestable things done in
the city...we are sealed by the Holy spirit...He teaches us
of the things pertaining unto Christ. 2Peter 1;20-21 Above all
you must understand that no prophecy[prophet] of scripture
came about by the prophets own interpretation.For prophecy
never had it's origin in the will of man,but men spoke from God
as they were carried along by the Holy spirit.
Secrets of Enoch 22;11, 23....and the Lord said to Pravuil,bring
out
the books from my storehouses and a reed of quick writing,and
give it to Enoch,and deliver to him the choice and comforting
[ the comfortor?] books out of thy hand.
:cloud9: yes, Sheila, that's what I meant by His body, ie. His body in us that is SPIRIT. I never saw a man with a body of flesh and a head made of spirit, nor a man with a head of spirit and a body made of flesh, did you? :laughing7: Yet that is what many in the church think they see.
I never heard of Pravuil, but I know the HG is a writer in the hearts of men. He showed me something one time that blessed me tremendously. I was praying with people I knew I would probably never see again, and the Lord wanted this one woman to walk in a particular gifting. He had me to tell her to put her hand on this one boy's heart, and pray in the Spirit, and I was to put my hand on her forearm.
When she did, in the Spirit I was shown His "hand" as a small whirlwind coming down thru her forearm, out of her hand into the boy's heart, at an angle, just like you see the tornadoes usually coming at an angle.
He let me see then, that He takes our hands and "writes" (as we write at an angle too) in their hearts, just like we as parents, took our small child and did, hand over hand, to teach them how to write. It was so sweet, to see this "parental" tenderness coming from the Lord.
He has written in the Spirit in gold (His nature and purpose) in the hearts of everyone born; I have seen it. It takes the hand of the Spirit to uncover the "dust" over it (pull back the veil), that the writing can be perceived thru the Spirit, so that it can be proclaimed and declared in the power and the anointing of an endless life (death has no authority).
This current Lazarus generation we see was allowed to be so steeped in death it stinketh, but it was for the glory of God, for the Son(s) of God is going to declare their destiny that was written from the beginning, which is, COME FORTH! Blessings...
In the following "testify, testifying, testimony" are what AV translates with "witness," etc.
John 8:12-18 (CLV)...
12 Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."
13 The Pharisees, then, said to Him, "You are testifying concerning yourself. Your testimony is not true!"
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "And if I should be testifying concerning Myself, true is My testimony, for I am aware whence I came and whither I am going, yet you are not aware whence I am coming or whither I am going.
15 You are judging according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.
16 And yet if ever I should be judging, My judging is true, for not alone am I, but I and the Father Who sends Me.
17 Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me."
John 5:30-44 (CLV)...
30 "I can not do anything of Myself. According as I am hearing am I judging; and My judging is just, for I am not seeking My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me.
31 "If I should be testifying concerning Myself, is My testimony not true?
32 There is another who is testifying concerning Me, and I am aware that the testimony which he is testifying concerning Me is true.
33 You have dispatched to John, and he has testified to the truth.
34 Yet I am not getting the testimony from man, but I am saying these things that you may be saved.
35 He was a lamp, burning and appearing, yet you want to exult an hour in its light.
36 "Now I have a testimony greater than John's. For the works which the Father has given Me that I should be perfecting them, the works themselves which I am doing are testifying concerning Me that the Father has commissioned Me.
37 And the Father Who sends Me, He has testified concerning Me. Neither have you ever heard His voice nor a perception of Him have you seen.
38 And His word you do not have remaining in you, for that One Whom He commissions, this One you are not believing.
39 "Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,
40 and not willing are you to come to Me that you may have life.
41 "Glory from men I am not getting.
42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in yourselves.
43 I have come in the name of My Father, and you are not getting Me. If another should be coming in his own name, him you will get.
44 How can you believe, getting glory from one another, and are not seeking the glory which is from God alone?
17 Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me."
45 "Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he writes concerning Me.
47 Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"
The first two or three witnesses is Jesus and His Father, along with Scripture. As well, the Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus. For each of us, my own self with God is the two witnesses that establish His presence presence in the earh. This needs to be rigorously asserted. For the world, the more that are in agreement the more certain that thing is. With God it only takes Himself. For each of us, it only takes God and me.
Matthew 18:15-20 (CLV)...
15 "Now, if ever your brother should be sinning, go and expose him between you and him alone. If ever he should be hearing you, you gain your brother.
16 Yet if ever he should not be hearing, take still one or two others along with you, that at the mouth of two witnesses, or of three, every declaration may be made to stand.
17 Now, if ever he should be disobeying them, tell it to the ecclesia. Now, if ever he should be disobeying the ecclesia also, let him be to you even as the man of the nations, and the tribute collector.
18 "Verily, I am saying to you, Whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth shall be those loose in heaven.
19 "Again, verily, I am saying to you that, if ever two of you should be agreeing on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it is they should be requesting shall be coming to them from My Father Who is in the heavens.
20 For where two or three are, gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them."
This is Jesus' complete doctrine of the Church (ecclesiology.)
The first question that screams out in me is "Who taught you that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the two witnesses?"
The reason I ask is not because I disagree . . but because I see the exact same as you. I believe that all of you that have shared this have had the same experience as I, it's not something you read out of a book or commentary . .but it's something the Father has "revealed" to your spirit and your mind has been able to see it as well . . .praise God for those with eyes and can see . .and those with ears and can hear!!!
Reformer, Cardinal and Shiela . . .wonderful posts!!!! There is a great resonation coming from what you've written.
Just an outside comment to the very last verse you quoted Reformer . . there is another Scripture that says where two or three agree on any one thing . . .the word "agree" actually speaks of "coming into harmony". When we sing . . .as these posts are doing . . .when we sing together in harmony, the will of the Father manifests in us, in the posts, and in those who read them.
I'm a tenor. :winkgrin:
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Nathan.......You should enjoy this comment about singing. Years ago, I asked the Lord what the "new song" was we were going to sing.
He said, "To sing means to RAISE the voice", ie. resurrected out of speaking out of that which is corruptible, and into that which is of the NEW creation. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on May 07, 2009, 06:23:18 PM
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Nathan.......You should enjoy this comment about singing. Years ago, I asked the Lord what the "new song" was we were going to sing.
He said, "To sing means to RAISE the voice", ie. resurrected out of speaking out of that which is corruptible, and into that which is of the NEW creation. Blessings...
Wow . . so singing is when you enter into the upper room and go dimensional!! An ascended voice of truth pouring out into the fields of men . . .sounds good to me!!
:cloud9: Well, what you got is truth too, :winkgrin: but I need to rephrase what I said.
What He dropped into my spirit with wisdom was closer to this; resurrected out of speaking out of the realm of corruption (carnal mind), to speaking out of the realm of incorruption (mind of Christ).
Sometimes you just can't say what you want to say, with one try. :laughing7: Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on May 02, 2009, 08:29:40 AM
While I generally agree Nathan, I try it out in other ways too, always seeking to have an open ear. One thing I figured out a few years ago was if there would come to be 144,000 people walking on the earth as Jesus walked, functioning in an hundredfold anointing...consider them evenly distributed over the whole earth according to population numbers in various countries. That would put something like 12,000 of them in the USA. Should that ever occur, things would never be the same again. Somehow we are looking for something like that to happen, the manifestation of the sons of God, sons being huis, mature inheritors standing in the full right of the family name "Jesus," the name to which all is subject.
Hi Reformer...This is exactly what I believe it to be and some insight to my question. .......
The two witnesses are suppose to be killed and resurrected? mmm.........
Revelation 1:1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
The book is an unveiling of Jesus. His natures, his purposes, his personalities.
The purpose of the book being revealed and written was to show the servants of God things that were SHORTLY to come . . shortly . . .not 2000 years after the fact . . .
And lastly and most importantly, the things John was about to see were sent and "signified" . . .they were in signs . . . they were not in literal wording, and they were not to be "interpreted". But they were to be "translated".
1 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God
A translation is overlaying a message with a pattern, a blue print, a principle . . .using Scripture to interpret Scripture is not really interpreting as much as it is translating . . .
By that I mean, God orginally established blueprints of things that were connected to the nature of Jesus . . .everything is connected to Jesus . . .the tabernacle of Moses is a huge one . . . Noah's ark is another, the ark Moses was hidden in . . .even David and Goliath . . .every story has an inward revelation applicable to one's "self".
Right now I'm preaching through Samson . . .it's amazing to see the things emerge when you begin looking at them from a totally different perspective. The simplest comparisons of patterns unlocks a whole other realm of truth. Hair, for instance is the covering of ones mind . . . each strand of hair represents each single thought within one's mind . . .some people's minds are much like hair styles . . .I've always thought it amusing to see the "fashion" for a trendy guy is to have his hair messed up on purpose, and then moosed so that it will stay messed up . . .
But when you start meditating on simple little things like that . .so many other things begin to unlock. You can't stop a bird from flying over your "head" but you can keep him from making a nest in your "hair". Your head is your mind, your hair is your thoughts. The bird is an unclean thing . . .or it is a clean thing, depending on the context of your situation.
Because you can't keep unclean thoughts from passing through your mind . .but you can keep that unclean though from accumulating with other unclean thoughts and making a home in your thinking.
It's very much connected to when Eve ate of the tree and nothing happened . . .but when she gave to Adam . . the world went into disarray. Eve is your mind, Adam is your spirit . . .when your mind eats of the things of the flesh . .when ungodly thoughts enter in, nothing happens because authority was not given to the mind of man, but to the spirit of man. When man acts on an ungodly thought, it is evidence that man submitted his spirit to his mind and the body follows which ever one we give authority to.
It's all symbolic . . .everything is spiritual . . .I've said that before. And I do understand there are some that see that it can be taken more ways than one . .and I totally agree . .but the one we're directed to pursue is the spiritual . . .it is only in the spirit that our spirits can sustain life.
So being concerned about a literal 12,000 in the world around us really isn't the issue . . .it's what it represents spiritually that I'm really wanting to pursue.
I think the book of Revelation is both Spiritual and Literal. It depends on what part of it you are reading.
Quote from: SPOKENFOR on June 21, 2009, 02:39:17 AM
I think the book of Revelation is both Spiritual and Literal. It depends on what part of it you are reading.
But that's the point . . .who's to say what is spiritual and what is literal? Who's the one drawing that line?
Jesus is the SAME yesterday (1st dimension) today (2nd dimension) and forever (3rd). he doesn't change. It's all literal . . .to those to whom it was literally written to . . .but it's also all spiritual, to them and to us . . but it can't be literal to them, and then literal again to us. It wasn't written to us for the reasons it was written to them. Pursuing the spirit isn't applying written Scripture to natural events 2,000 years after the fact. Life is in the spirit of truth. that's all I'm trying to say here.
QuoteIt's sad to see a conversation about something that's intended to bring light and freedom, instead bring dissention and condemnation. If I am at fault for this . . .I apologize.
Dear brother Nathan
There is no need to apologize.
You are perfectly right. Is that not what I have been saying all along, that
studying the Scriptures with the intellect brings with it confrontation and division. This is the division I was referring to and it is evident.
This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them." (Jn.12:38-40) "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Matt.7:6). Amen!!
Love
Roy (UK)
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 01, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?
The two witnesses are those that present the True Witness of Christ. The Two Tables of the Testimony (Witness) of the Old Covenant were a TYPE of the Two Witness of the New Covenant. The Ark of the New Covenant is MAN and the tables of the New Covenant are fleshy tables of the heart. So these two witness under the New Covenant is not specifically two persons. It is just a references to those that exhibit the Spirit of God as a true testimony of Christ Jesus. They are of the Candlesticks that are before God. Label each stick with the name of the Churches listed in Revelations Chapters 2 and 3 and remove those that God found disfavor with and you will remain with Philadelphia and Smyrna, and you will also find that Christ is in the midst of them. Those were the two that God doesn't speak with disfavor. Those exhibited the Spirit of God as a true witness. Those two Spirits of God have remained before Him as part of the seven eyes before the Lord.
Paul
QuoteIt baffles me that you openly claim your status as athieist and yet your the one that goes on the attack against someone who openly claims not just belief, but intimacy with the very thing you claim you don't believe in.
Brother Nathan
This thread babbles me. For someone openly claiming to be an atheist, to be quoting the Word of God and from all appearances defending it, doesn't make sense. The norm as I understand it is, that if one does not believe in God then he speaks against Him not for Him. So what's going on here? Like you I think I should follow another thread. This man hasn't got the golden virtue of forgiveness like Jesus, which I admit none of us would have when hanging in agony on a cross, but he is not hanging on a cross as far as I can see.
Love
Roy (UK)
:cloud9: Are you SERIOUS? That OFFENDS you???? :mshock:
Have you never seen the Spirit of God moving upon an "unsaved" person before? If WW isn't a witness to the power of God and incidentally, UR, then I don't know what is.
In this hour, the call has gone out to the "Lazarus generation", so steeped in the grave clothes/doctrines of the carnal mind they stinketh, so that none but the Master would even THINK of raising/touching them up, for fear of "contaminating" themselves with the "dead", but I tell you THEY WILL have their place at Abraham's table. Blessings to ALL.....