Tentmaker Forum

willieH: Hi again me bratha's  :icon_king: & Sistiz  :icon_queen:

Here is my 2nd topic, discussed on another board... It will be interesting to hear your thoughts...

Is it a SIN to use Marijuana?  :scratchhead:

As with drinking, I will begin by my foundational answer to this question (though I have much more to say about it) ---- NO!

Look forward to your comments and thoughts...

Things like this I've learned to call "Indulging Adam"
And I know when I've done something that displeased the Lord.

Is doing something illegal sinful?

As I have first, second, and sometimes third hand knowledge of the subject, I see no reason why I should not be the first replier.  :bigGrin: (Damn, I wasn't the first.)

First of all, I do NOT believe it's a sin.

It's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber, it's a medicine, and it's an awesome way to relax. Now, I think it can be sinful, in the same way sex can be sinful, if you commit adultery for example, or, maybe that's not a good comparison. Food can be sinful, if you're a glutton. Video games can be sinful if that's all you do with your life, and you ignore more important things. (Family, job, etc.) Likewise, cannabis (Not MJ.) can be sinful if that's all you're living for. If that makes sense.

Now, there are two reasons mainstream Christians are opposed to cannabis, and it stems more from government propaganda than the Bible. First, they use the same verse (I can't remember it at the moment.) where Paul talks about not harming your own body, or something like that. (It's the main verse used against smoking tobacco also.) Most of the negative side effects of smoking cannabis are not true. Here's a great artical that says more than I ever could:

http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508 (http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508)

Now, there are some negative side effects with getting high. The worst is it messes with your short term memory. One time I got high, and I was trying to wash out the home-made bong I smoked out of. I don't really know how many times I washed it, because every time I got done, I'd forget what I was doing and wash it again. If that scares you, just don't smoke it.

The other argument against it by mainstream Christians is the fact that it is illegal. They have another verse written by Paul (I don't know this one ether, it might be in Romans.) which talks about obeying the laws that are placed above you. And to that, I have no argument unless someone can post the verse I'm talking about. 1 sec... Found it, Romans 13:1-5

QuoteEveryone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [2] Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [3] For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. [4] For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

Well, I think this page sums it up nicely:

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm (http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm)

Therefore I see nothing wrong with smoking every once in a while. (Just don't get caught.)

Is doing something legal, not sinful? :bigGrin:

     I think its not so much about a persons behavior, within reason that is.    Its a question of whether or not the person is in relationship with God .  Or,  in Spirit and in Truth.  Because then God enables you to be right regarding involvement in carnal things.  Meaning that the Spirit will help us to avoid getting out of balance in a carnal thing, and/or the Spirit will "check us" when we do get out of balance,  causing us to get back in balance.      So,  I think if you use your spirit about it,   meaning being wise about it,    its fine.  

 P.S. -   No, I  don't.      :laughing7:

ive always thought it was, but as I began to revaluate my beliefs post and pre-universalism, I cant really come to any logical conclusion as to why, other than it can be harmful and addictive(but then again just about everything is potentially harmful and addictive...why do we always single out weed and alcohal?). But there are many Christians that feel smoking cigarettes is not a sin...and thats considerably more harmful . I mean how often do you hear of people dying from cigarettes? now think about marijuana?

I really dont understand why marijuana isnt legal

conclusion, due to my upbringing, I feel that its more "bad" than alcohal, but logically and biblically Im not sure how it is any more bad, if not less.

It depends on who is using it.   For some people who feel in their conscience that it is wrong, it would be sinful.  But to certain others, it is not.
It has been shown to have medicinal uses in the realm of pain management.  And is legally prescribed for that purpose by some
doctors.   It's not illegal in every state.   It is legal in Holland and perhaps other parts of Europe.  Men can pass laws against anything they
want to control, but that is not what makes a thing sinful.

No, I don't smoke pot.  But I would not judge/condemn someone who did.

Anne

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2009, 05:04:48 AM
Is doing something illegal sinful?

Here it's legal. Must be at least 50 shops in town here.
By law I'm allowed to grow 4 plants.
But that's not so in many other parts of the world.
So the question is: Do God's laws in any way/sometimes (partly) depend on laws of men?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 09:15:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2009, 05:04:48 AM
Is doing something illegal sinful?

Here it's legal. Must be at least 50 shops in town here.
By law I'm allowed to grow 4 plants.
But that's not so in many other parts of the world.
So the question is: Do God's laws in any way/sometimes (partly) depend on laws of men?

  Good question !  the Law of the Land  :laughing7:  what  do we obey

  grace verses  fleshy wisdom

2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. 

   God can do all things .........

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 


Tts 3:2   To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 


Tts 3:3   For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. 


Tts 3:4   But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 


Tts 3:5   Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy SPIRIT ; 


Tts 3:6   Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 
Tts 3:7   That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 


Tts 3:8  [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 
  magistrates 1) to obey (a ruler or a superior)

  anything  that makes you  guilty  as charged  if you  have or have not done wrong but are accussed  falsly or  true
  should be  considered

   some can do anything and feel nothing , some can never be ashamed
of doing anything ,  they do not  have  a  conscience  towards God or fellow man   
what is the  hot iron  that sears the conscience  God will do if you dont learn from  mistakes in the past ?

one can do the other cannot do  to me it is all how you ''percieve God  ''and His will .....    so much can be said of  this ..  many examples



Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 


1Ti 4:2   Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 


1Ti 4:3   Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 


1Ti 4:4   For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 


1Ti 4:5   For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 


  I dont want to pay a fine  for  breaking the laws of the land
  but some  by the desires will take thier chances of getting caught  in the act
  I did in the past  do such things , but now they seem   less desirable  :thumbsup:  ....... after having something of God within , nothing else will do ........ :HeartThrob:

My husband used to smoke a couple of spliffs a day before he knew the Lord. Now he has no inclination. I've had some great times after having a few blasts where I haven't done anything sinful, just been happy and mellow. Like anything which makes us 'not sober' you have to look at your motives for using it. If its to escape life, think it through- except no imitations but life in Christ! If its just to enhance life like a nice meal, glass of wine, seeing a play, having a massage and Jesus is your number one, you have felt no prompting from the Holy Spirit not to do it then I think that its ok.

I havent smoked it since before I was pregnant and I wont untill my children are grown up if I ever do again because I think its a complicated issue and i dont want to be hypocrite, becuase I woulnd't want my children to do it unless they were right with the Lord and I knew they were listening to the Holy Spirit.

For those who do think that its ok is it because its naturally grown, what about mushrooms?

Quote from: natcat86 on November 25, 2009, 05:13:37 PMFor those who do think that its ok is it because its naturally grown, what about mushrooms?

I think the word "pure" should be used in this discussion.
XTC, cannabis, is not that harmful. But.... because it's only semi legal attracts teh bad kind of people.
Mixing all kind of junk with it. More like toxic waste.
So very often there is a secret ingredient X. And that X usually is the real killer.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 05:33:59 PM
So very often there is a secret ingredient X. And that X usually is the real killer.

Apparently thanks to genetic engineering weed is a lot stronger these days than say the weed that Bob Dylan would have introduced The Beatles to!

Yep, it's no longer pure nature. Pure nature is soil+seed+water.
We have growshops here with all kind of stuff for showing. I can tell you they sell much more than a few seeds. It's almost sience...
BTW I don't use it. I don't smoke at all.
I stick to alcohol. 2 parts Red Bull + 1 part Bacardi Razz  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 25, 2009, 06:06:36 AM
Is doing something legal, not sinful? :bigGrin:

It can be. But I think doing a drug which is clearly illegal is sinful unless someone can prove that smoking marijuana is doing the Lord's work versus the work of man... :laughing7:

I think Beloved Servant had a good point: even if Marijuana is legal, would smoking it edify God, or please the Adam in us?

Anything which becomes an idol in the temple (which is us) that is when it becomes sinful. There are many gray areas of course and we could spend much time looking at gray-area circumstances, but that is why each person has a walk and each person must examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 06:46:48 PMI think Beloved Servant had a good point: even if Marijuana is legal, would smoking it edify God, or please the Adam in us?

Does eating, drinking, sleeping, walking, swimming, working, going to the toilet, singing, showering, vote, drive, etc etc etc edify God?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 06:54:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 06:46:48 PMI think Beloved Servant had a good point: even if Marijuana is legal, would smoking it edify God, or please the Adam in us?

Does eating, drinking, sleeping, walking, swimming, working, going to the toilet, singing, showering, vote, drive, etc etc etc edify God?

Singing can edify God sure. All the others are pretty neutral. I didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got? This thread is about Marijuana smoking. Pot is an illegal mind altering drug. So if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

 11 and a voice came from the sky, saying, "Thou art My Son dearly loved: in Thee is My delight."  Mark 1, Weymouth New Testament


58  "The foxes have holes," said Jesus, "and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."   Luke 9, Weymouth New Testament


  2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.  1 Thessalonians 5,  Weymouth New Testament

QuoteAnything which becomes an idol in the temple (which is us) that is when it becomes sinful. There are many gray areas of course and we could spend much time looking at gray-area circumstances, but that is why each person has a walk and each person must examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

  You made some great points Seth  :icon_flower:

 I know Paul never spoke of  "pot smoking "  in the Word
 but He did become all things to all men that he might save  some
 and  Jews dont eat pork     to be a Jew  when with them  he  did not eat pork ..  with the gents he ate whatever they offered him , thankful for the opportunity to  labour in love  to the gentiles
to me it so depends on the circumstances  ,   His faith and more so grace of God  was so strong through  his  walk
 He  rejoiced through the suffering  for all men ...  
wow  ,  he said idols are nothing / vanity  , to many   bellies gods/ men

But if any man love God, the same is known of him.  


1Cr 8:4   As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing   in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.  

 Paul said we know   by the Spirit  of God that,  but many DO NOT know that
:mblush:

1Cr 8:5   For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)  


1Cr 8:6   But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.  


1Cr 8:7   Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.  

1Cr 8:8   But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.  


1Cr 8:9   But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.  

But if any man love God, the same is known of him.  
 but how do you reach a drug addict ?   by  forcing them to stop  ,

 knew a man who loved his pot , a good man  to  who loved God and tried so  hard to stop  , went to a church  and all them voices caused him to stumble and he is  for the worse and not the better over the  whole ordeal  , alone and hurt  not able to trust ,   the church  voices made him fail  more than  his  smoking ever did .

 I am be no means justifying    him or them for what is done in the name of God  but
  just saying, many times  force gets you  no where but a little love /  and faith mixed  with  grace and  understanding goes a long long ways ,,,,,,,,,,  our strengh  is in God not in ourselves or anyone else to get us all though this life    , sometimes His grace is just sufficent  and thats all we got .
 :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 07:00:50 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 06:54:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 06:46:48 PMI think Beloved Servant had a good point: even if Marijuana is legal, would smoking it edify God, or please the Adam in us?

Does eating, drinking, sleeping, walking, swimming, working, going to the toilet, singing, showering, vote, drive, etc etc etc edify God?

Singing can edify God sure. All the others are pretty neutral.

But they don't edify God. But still you brought in 'edify God' into teh discussion.

QuoteI didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got?

Much more actually. I was just reminding you that edifying God is not the standard of life.

QuoteThis thread is about Marijuana smoking. Pot is an illegal mind altering drug.

As I wrote in my first reply it isn't illegal everywhere. Alcohol also is illegal in some places. But that are manmade rules. Jesus turned water into wine. Wine is also a mind altering drug.
If the US government forbids praying does God count your continued praying as a sin?

QuoteSo if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

And that's why I wrote that list.
Did you eat today Seth? If so did you consider it is or isn't edifying God?

So basicly I think that edifying stuff is not what it's about. Noach was drunk too. But that was not the problem. His nakedness was. I think neither alchol or drugs is even in the slightest way against God. It does get wrong if it makes you do sinful things. No problem in smoking 5 joints on a evening. Unless you for example start swearing.

 :cloud9: It's all about consuming/becoming one with. Is what you're consuming edifying the flesh man Adam or the Spirit man Christ? Every man has to give an account of this choose ye this day whom ye will serve, thing. Do we choose to serve the flesh or the Spirit? All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.

The problem I have with pot is that it gives a counterfeit peace, and a counterfeit comfort, and even a counterfeit high (joy). If we get our peace, comfort and joy from pot, then what do we need the HS for?

The defense I've heard the most often, is that God created it, so then it's "natural". Well, He MAY have created it, but He didn't create it IN YOU. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 25, 2009, 07:22:47 PM
:cloud9: It's all about consuming/becoming one with. Is what you're consuming edifying the flesh man Adam or the Spirit man Christ? Every man has to give an account of this choose ye this day whom ye will serve, thing. Do we choose to serve the flesh or the Spirit? All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.

The problem I have with pot is that it gives a counterfeit peace, and a counterfeit comfort, and even a counterfeit high (joy). If we get our peace, comfort and joy from pot, then what do we need the HS for?

The defense I've heard the most often, is that God created it, so then it's "natural". Well, He MAY have created it, but He didn't create it IN YOU. Blessings....

  excellent point Card  :thumbsup:
  the temporary   Adam  verses the eternal  Adam  fulling

   the  filling the  Spirit & soul , body  what lives and what dies   within us type desires

   till the Christ in you is  perfect / complete /mature .......

  :HeartThrob:

 

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 07:22:25 PM
But they don't edify God.

I think I addressed that.

Quote

QuoteI didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got?

Much more actually. I was just reminding you that edifying God is not the standard of life.

What do you mean by "standard of life?"

Quote

QuoteThis thread is about Marijuana smoking. Pot is an illegal mind altering drug.

As I wrote in my first reply it isn't illegal everywhere. Alcohol also is illegal in some places. But that are manmade rules. Jesus turned water into wine. Wine is also a mind altering drug.
If the US government forbids praying does God count your continued praying as a sin?

No to the last part. Praying is the Lord's work within us. Is smoking pot? I don't think you are paying attention to me WW. Edifying God is to embody Him in our lives for others to be an ambassador in Christ's stead. So, What I said is that those who wish to edify God smoke pot even if it were legal, would they be doing it to edify God, or please the Adam in them. In other words, would it set them back in favor of pleasing the flesh? That's something a believer would need to look at. Walking and swimming probably wouldn't have that effect. That's something beside the point of whether taking one hit in private, or being totally given over to it is sinful. That is something each believer must address within themselves as to whether their actions are detracting from "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" in favor of pleasing the flesh. I am not saying there is a blanket standard in that. It depends on each person to examine themselves.

Quote

QuoteSo if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

And that's why I wrote that list.
Did you eat today Seth? If so did you consider it is or isn't edifying God?

Actually if I am glottonous then food becomes an idol. So each person must look at what they do and examine themselves to see if they are taking something and making an idol out of it. If so, THEN it becomes sinful.

QuoteSo basicly I think that edifying stuff is not what it's about. Noach was drunk too. But that was not the problem. His nakedness was.

You assume it wasn't a problem. We are told not to be given over to drunkenness.

QuoteI think neither alchol or drugs is even in the slightest way against God.

Like I said a few times now, that is something between you and God. Corporately, I believe it is perfectly fine for a gathering of believers to decide such things and deal with them as they see fit. But individually, that is between you and God.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 07:34:47 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 07:22:25 PM
But they don't edify God.

I think I addressed that.

You did. But I think you don't understand why I repeated it.

Quote

Quote

QuoteI didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got?

Much more actually. I was just reminding you that edifying God is not the standard of life.

What do you mean by "standard of life?"

There is more in life that constantly praying. Doesn't God allow us to relax once in a while?

Quote

Quote

QuoteThis thread is about Marijuana smoking. Pot is an illegal mind altering drug.

As I wrote in my first reply it isn't illegal everywhere. Alcohol also is illegal in some places. But that are manmade rules. Jesus turned water into wine. Wine is also a mind altering drug.
If the US government forbids praying does God count your continued praying as a sin?

No to the last part. Praying is the Lord's work within us. Is smoking pot? I don't think you are paying attention to me WW. What I said is that those who wish to edify God smoke pot if it were legal, would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in them.

And this my disagrement with your view. When I ask you if walking is edifying God you say that's neutral. But if it's about a joint you suddenly speak about pleasing the Adam.

Quote

Quote

QuoteSo if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

And that's why I wrote that list.
Did you eat today Seth? If so did you consider it is or isn't edifying God?

Actually if I am glottonous then food becomes an idol. So each person must look at what they do and examine themselves to see if they are taking something and making an idol out of it. If so, THEN it becomes sinful.

So isn't that excatly what I wrote before?It's not the joint but the sin. Food isn't a sin. But if it turns glottonous then it is.

Quote

QuoteSo basicly I think that edifying stuff is not what it's about. Noach was drunk too. But that was not the problem. His nakedness was.

You assume it wasn't a problem. We are told not to be given over to drunkenness.

Doesn't say exactly what I said. Being drunk is no problem. But if you start doing unlawful things then things become a problem. The unlawful thing. Not beining drunk. For some men alcohol and/or drugs lower the barrier to for example rape women. Alcohol lowers the barrier but stepping over the barrier is "given over to drunkness".

Quote

QuoteI think neither alchol or drugs is even in the slightest way against God.

Like I said a few times now, that is something between you and God. Corporately, I believe it is perfectly fine for a gathering of believers to decide such things and deal with them as they see fit. But individually, that is between you and God.

Sure but that can be said about anything. But in this thread Willie asked if a joint is sinful; and that's what I talking about.
And a fully agree with willie: NO!

Fantastic thread.
Really nothing to add.
Just to say that I really enjoyed the openness and willingness to discuss the topic.

WhiteWings you make me laugh my head off.
Barry

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 07:58:43 PM
And this my disagrement with your view. When I ask you if walking is edifying God you say that's neutral. But if it's about a joint you suddenly speak about pleasing the Adam.

That's really not how this conversation has gone. My original post was not in response to your questions. What I had originally said is that each person must examine if smoking a joint will edify God or please the Adam in them. Basically, as I clarified, if someone is wanting to edify God (ie embody his character) does smoking a joint HINDER that in favor of pleasing the flesh instead. If it does, then it's an idol of the flesh even for that moment. If not, then not. That wasn't a "sudden" point I was making. It was part of what I was saying to begin with.

QuoteThere is more in life that constantly praying. Doesn't God allow us to relax once in a while?

That doesn't help me understand what you mean by "standard of life." I may have a different view on what the standard of life really is so that would cause an unnecessary disagreement if we aren't even talking about the same thing.

QuoteSo isn't that excatly what I wrote before?It's not the joint but the sin. Food isn't a sin. But if it turns glottonous then it is.

Eating food isn't a sin. And neither did I say that smoking a joint was a sin in and of itself. I think you assumed that.

QuoteDoesn't say exactly what I said. Being drunk is no problem. But if you start doing unlawful things then things become a problem.

Being given over to drunkenness is "a problem." Are you going to be consistent concerning gluttony over food as with gluttony over wine?

QuoteSure but that can be said about anything. But in this thread Willie asked if a joint is sinful; and that's what I talking about.
And a fully agree with willie: NO!

And that is what every believer must do, examine it within themselves and decide. I say, if it becomes an idol, even by smoking A joint, then yes. Yet, again, that is for someone to examine themselves to decide.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 08:14:07 PM

<...snip....>
When reading your reply sometimes I get the idea you have no clue about what I'm trying to say.
But sometimes we seem to agree. So maybe it's best I just summarize what I think you mean.

There is absolutely no sin in many things like food, alcohol and drugs.
But if it in some way makes the user loose control and start doing things God has forbidden then the effect is clearly wrong.
And even if you are still not sinning in any way when being totally stoned it's no good idea to be stoned 'whole your life' because then you have no time left to worship God and you basicly only please the Adam.

But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine.

Is that a summary you can agree on Seth?

(http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/hankendale/Dontwalkonthegrass.png)

 :cloud9: It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

PS. NOT talking to ANYONE in particular.....

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 08:43:48 PM
When reading your reply sometimes I get the idea you have no clue about what I'm trying to say.

LOL, I was just thinking the same thing. To me it seemed that anything other than a big NO with exclamation points in response to Willie's question constitutes "pot is sin" to you.  :laughing7:

An old Shakespearian saying: "The lady doth protest too much methinks."

QuoteThere is absolutely no sin in many things like food, alcohol and drugs.
But if it in some way makes the user loose control and start doing things God has forbidden then the effect is clearly wrong.
And even if you are still not sinning in any way when being totally stoned it's no good idea to be stoned 'whole your life' because then you have no time left to worship God and you basicly only please the Adam.

But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine.

Is that a summary you can agree on Seth?

Except the part about being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority. And we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means. But basically you got the gyst.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 25, 2009, 08:47:19 PM
:cloud9: It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

Good post.  :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 25, 2009, 08:47:19 PM
:cloud9: It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

PS. NOT talking to ANYONE in particular.....

You should write a book. :happygrin:

Hopefully in English :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 08:50:26 PM
Except the part about being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

Then it's wrong. That's also why I purposely added: "not sinning in any way"
Some people are very harmless when stoned. They just laugh, sleep or sing  :winkgrin:

QuoteAnd we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means.

For me it means giving over to earthly things. Sinful nature.

QuoteBut basically you got the gyst.

Mods!!! Ban him. He's calling me Luke 12:1-ish
Just kinding Seth. :Peace2:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 08:50:26 PM

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  :2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 09:47:17 PM
Then it's wrong. That's also why I purposely added: "not sinning in any way"
Some people are very harmless when stoned. They just laugh, sleep or sing  :winkgrin:

I actually used to be one of those people. Now, I don't want my mind altered or submitted to any other influence but the higher mind of Christ. Not that I am always successful, but that is what I was talking about or getting at. That's is why I think a "yes or no" answer to the original question doesn't do enough. Simply answering "no" to the question "is it sinful to use pot" is too blanket a statement as much as just saying "yes." There are conditions to consider.

Quote

QuoteAnd we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means.

For me it means giving over to earthly things. Sinful nature.

Ok. But you said "But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine." If "Giving over to the sinful nature" is what it means, then one cannot please Adam WITHOUT sinning. To me, pleasing Adam is submitting one's mind to that which lusts against the Spirit and desires to be led of another. Things both legal and illegal can fall into that category.

Quote

QuoteBut basically you got the gyst.

Mods!!! Ban him. He's calling me Luke 12:1-ish
Just kinding Seth. :Peace2:

:laughing7:

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 09:56:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 08:50:26 PM

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  :2c:

Yes, and that line is really the big question mark in the convo.  :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi Ninja... :hithere:

Thanks for your reply!  :friendstu:

Though I shall answer several of these posts, I choose to answer yours first...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 25, 2009, 07:55:01 AM
ive always thought it was, but as I began to revaluate my beliefs post and pre-universalism, I cant really come to any logical conclusion as to why, other than it can be harmful and addictive(but then again just about everything is potentially harmful and addictive...

To begin with... you are correct in saying "just about everything is potentially harmful" --- driving a car CAN be "harmful"... Or playing football... or eating... or using a power tool, ...so do we abstain from things simply on the basis that they CAN be harmful?  :dontknow:

Secondly, ...Marijuana is no more "addictive" than are your favorite TV shows... eating steak, or petting your dog.  These are things which you LIKE to do... and that you are comfortable with, and which you ENJOY.

When it comes to the PHYSICAL, this PLANT is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive... THAT thought is a LIE, taught by both Christians and Governmental agencies, and believed by those who have no personal knowledge of it.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 25, 2009, 07:55:01 AMwhy do we always single out weed and alcohal?).

I generated these 2 threads to bring out what the WORD notes as SIN, as compared to what MAN notes as SIN...

"Weed & alcohol", are two of the top 3 Christian taboo's (in my observation)... the other being Cigarette smoking... Which in part have basis for abstination, but mostly are rooted in the DIRECTIVES taught by the "church"... and THAT is why I chose to discuss these 2...

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 25, 2009, 07:55:01 AMBut there are many Christians that feel smoking cigarettes is not a sin...and thats considerably more harmful . I mean how often do you hear of people dying from cigarettes? now think about marijuana?

I really dont understand why marijuana isnt legal

Again, your thinking is aligned with truth... Many "christians" FEEL that smoking is a sin, and are quite willing to BACKBITE a brother or sister with their unfounded judgment (btw -- I am not a smoker.  I did smoke for 12yrs, but quit for good 33yrs ago)...

What studies "claim", is that smokers are near or at the top of the list when it comes to LUNG CANCER, HEART DISEASES and such.  So it is thereby determined that smoking causes these diseases... Which is not a totally LOGICAL conclusion, for a person which never touched a cigarette or even came in contact with "2nd hand smoke", can aquire these physical disorders, and die from them.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on November 25, 2009, 07:55:01 AMconclusion, due to my upbringing, I feel that its more "bad" than alcohal, but logically and biblically Im not sure how it is any more bad, if not less.

You again noted truth... your observation of Marijuana is based upon your "upbringing" (teaching in your youth), as to its [later in life] place in your own life, and how you might [later in life] observe its use by others...

So the (early) teaching you have embedded in you (which you cannot be faulted for), is the basis for how YOU ...now... "feel" about this substance.

"Biblically",  it finds NO CONDEMNATION at all... "Logically" it must be KNOWN personally before logic can be applied to its use or abstination, otherwise -- as are many other teachings, ones opinion of it, sits upon HEARSAY...

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

If I might be a bit facetious  :prankster:  for a moment... one could say that a STORE display of bubblegum is the foundation for the birth of THIEVERY in some children, and is therefore a EVIL practice, as the "availability" of the bubblegum is a TEMPTATION generated by them toward kids, of which shall later on, ...steal CARS and ROB BANKS... :rolleye:  

Therefore the bubblegum is the stepping stone to later and GROWING degenerative behaviors, which in part could be curbed by necessitating that STORES abstain from such bubblegum displays...  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Anne... :hithere:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 25, 2009, 08:29:44 AM
It depends on who is using it.   For some people who feel in their conscience that it is wrong, it would be sinful.  But to certain others, it is not.
It has been shown to have medicinal uses in the realm of pain management.  And is legally prescribed for that purpose by some
doctors.   It's not illegal in every state.   It is legal in Holland and perhaps other parts of Europe.  Men can pass laws against anything they
want to control, but that is not what makes a thing sinful.

No, I don't smoke pot.  But I would not judge/condemn someone who did.

Anne

Best answer yet... The WORD actually makes this very same comment --

Rom 14:14  I know and am persuaded by the Lord JESUS,  that there is NOTHING -- unclean OF ITSELF: but to him that ESTEEMETH any THING to be UNCLEAN -- to HIM it is UNCLEAN

Marijuana is a plant, just like a carrot... made by God AS IT IS...

Men do not find carrots unlawful, but Marijuana (by most) is considered unlawful... and thusly they IMPOSE their "esteem" of this thing, upon the rest.

The "unlawfulness" of marijuana, is established by MEN, not God.   :dontknow:

GOD chose to bring this plant forth in His Creation -- AS IT IS.  It is purposeful for that reason (simply because HE decided it would have life in His Creation).

willieH: Hi Molly :hithere:

Thanks for your reply sis...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2009, 05:04:48 AM
Is doing something illegal sinful?

As has been noted... it depends upon where you live, as to whether or not it is "illegal"... and even then... that is based upon laws made by MEN, not God.

What if, in the future, MAN passes a LAW that states CHRIST cannot be worshipped, ...will you comply with their "LAW", or do the "illegal" thing Molly?

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 09:58:28 PM
Ok. But you said "But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine." If "Giving over to the sinful nature" is what it means, then one cannot please Adam WITHOUT sinning. To me, pleasing Adam is submitting one's mind to that which lusts against the Spirit and desires to be led of another. Things both legal and illegal can fall into that category.

You spotted a big flaw in my defenition Seth.
Another try. It's ok to do things that please you, besides praying, that are not sinful.
So if we have 3 catagories: 1-Worship, 2-having fun, 3-sin then ofcourse we should never be in catagory 3.
But neither we should only be in catagory 2
The only catagory where we can unlimitted time in is catagory 1
So a good balance between 1 and 2 is needed.

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 10:00:30 PM

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

That's an interesting topic in and of itself.  This is a "quick" reaction, a question/thought.  Although almost anything has the potential to be abused and therefor become sin for us (golf for me, for instance, if I let the desire to play control me, come first in my life, get in the way of other things I should be attending to) - it seems to me there may be a few things that are more likely to be problematic than others.  Alcohol for instance, in that in excess, it can chemically control our mind, and as Seth said, we would giving ourselves over to another authority - making us less able to control ourselves, our thought processes impaired, etc.  For instance, there are SPECIFIC warnings in the scriptures about the over use of alcohol...some general mention of other excesses or whether something's profitable or not, but alcohol specifically addressed.  I don't know of anything specific in which marijuana could be included, other than are there some things about "withcraft" or pharmacia (sp?) where mind/mood altering drugs could be included?   Not trying to be too legalistic, but don't want to miss something important either.  What do we think?   :scratchhead:

Also, one I have trouble with and don't have figured out yet, I'm not to do anything that causes my brother to stumble - in effect, sacrificing my own desires and freedoms for the love of God and others?  That may be a whole other thread, but I believe does tie in here.

Thanks, James.

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 09:56:16 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 08:50:26 PM

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  :2c:

James can you give me one or more verses that state that?
I remember wine mentioned quite often. But never in a negative way. Who drinks wine isn't per definition drunk so perhaps that's not relavant. So a verse that states drunk=crosing the line? Plz  :beerburp: :drunken_smilie:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:08:45 PM
Another try. It's ok to do things that please you, besides praying, that are not sinful.
So if we have 3 catagories: 1-Worship, 2-having fun, 3-sin then ofcourse we should never be in catagory 3.
But neither we should only be in catagory 2
The only catagory where we can unlimitted time in is catagory 1
So a good balance between 1 and 2 is needed.

Yes, I definitely agree with that. And how we "examine ourselves whether we be in the faith" is a good guiding principle to see if 2 is bleeding into 3.

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 10:12:50 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 10:00:30 PM

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

That's an interesting topic in and of itself.  This is a "quick" reaction, a question/thought.  Although almost anything has the potential to be abused and therefor become sin for us (golf for me, for instance, if I let the desire to play control me, come first in my life, get in the way of other things I should be attending to) - it seems to me there may be a few things that are more likely to be problematic than others.  Alcohol for instance, in that in excess, it can chemically control our mind, and as Seth said, we would giving ourselves over to another authority - making us less able to control ourselves, our thought processes impaired, etc.  For instance, there are SPECIFIC warnings in the scriptures about the over use of alcohol...some general mention of other excesses or whether something's profitable or not, but alcohol specifically addressed.  I don't know of anything specific in which marijuana could be included, other than are there some things about "withcraft" or pharmacia (sp?) where mind/mood altering drugs could be included?   Not trying to be too legalistic, but don't want to miss something important either.  What do we think?   :scratchhead:

Also, one I have trouble with and don't have figured out yet, I'm not to do anything that causes my brother to stumble - in effect, sacrificing my own desires and freedoms for the love of God and others?  That may be a whole other thread, but I believe does tie in here.

Thanks, James.

Great thoughts. Very balanced look at it.

 :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: Yeah, that is good, Jab.....I forgot the aspect of it about causing one's brother to stumble.  :thumbsup:

Seems like  Every bad  thing that  happens /this life  something  good comes out of it     :thumbsup:  



 maybe   ( things of  the FLESH) are the  dead works ?leaving those things behind us ..

made me think of this .. :HeartThrob:



 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  

1Cr 15:43   It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  


1Cr 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

willieH: Hi Lupac... :hithere:

Another great post!  :goodpost:

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AM
As I have first, second, and sometimes third hand knowledge of the subject, I see no reason why I should not be the first replier.  :bigGrin: (Damn, I wasn't the first.)

:laughing7:  I like you Lupac!   :friendstu:

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMFirst of all, I do NOT believe it's a sin.

It's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber, it's a medicine, and it's an awesome way to relax. Now, I think it can be sinful, in the same way sex can be sinful, if you commit adultery for example, or, maybe that's not a good comparison. Food can be sinful, if you're a glutton. Video games can be sinful if that's all you do with your life, and you ignore more important things. (Family, job, etc.) Likewise, cannabis (Not MJ.) can be sinful if that's all you're living for. If that makes sense.

Makes PERFECT sense bro...  :gthumbsup:

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMNow, there are two reasons mainstream Christians are opposed to cannabis, and it stems more from government propaganda than the Bible. First, they use the same verse (I can't remember it at the moment.) where Paul talks about not harming your own body, or something like that. (It's the main verse used against smoking tobacco also.) Most of the negative side effects of smoking cannabis are not true. Here's a great artical that says more than I ever could:

http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508 (http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508)

Now, there are some negative side effects with getting high. The worst is it messes with your short term memory. One time I got high, and I was trying to wash out the home-made bong I smoked out of. I don't really know how many times I washed it, because every time I got done, I'd forget what I was doing and wash it again. If that scares you, just don't smoke it.

Many people have "short term memory loss" that have never ever, smoked marijuana...  :dontknow:

Again, this is generalization... there are likely MANY things which contribute to this condition... as it is NOT specifically connected to marijuana users. (though it is something which occurs in some users).

As far as "getting high"... to me, it is not a "high"... I see it as an enhancement.

I can witness for a surety, that the senses are ENHANCED by its affects. :nod:

In my youth I used marijuana OFTEN... matter of fact, in many cases -- daily!  In my later years, it is very seldom that I have used it (more about that later!).

To this day, I still do not esteem it to be EVIL in ANY WAY. :mnah:

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMThe other argument against it by mainstream Christians is the fact that it is illegal. They have another verse written by Paul (I don't know this one ether, it might be in Romans.) which talks about obeying the laws that are placed above you. And to that, I have no argument unless someone can post the verse I'm talking about. 1 sec... Found it, Romans 13:1-5

As has been stated... it depends on where you live, as to whether it is "ILLEGAL" or not.

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMWell, I think this page sums it up nicely:

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm (http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm)

Therefore I see nothing wrong with smoking every once in a while. (Just don't get caught.)

I guess I could get into Sovereignty issue if not careful... but it is noteworthy that PHARAOH was RAISED by God to do what he did -- Rom 9:17

So this explanation (in the link above) of Rom 13, to me... is subjective -- If a ruler is found opposing God or His LAW -- then God shall make a way for those who believe.  The deliverance of the JEWS was not UP to Moses (for he requested their release SEVERAL times to no avail), neither was it UP to Pharaoh (for even though he DENIED the requests, ...when the time arrived for deliverance, it MANIFESTED)...

These 2 LEADERS, did not decide anything... they were BOTH under the POWER of GOD to show that ALL are subject to HIS POWER, and to whom HE gives it, for HIS PURPOSES... which is what (as I see it) that Rom 13 is stating.  :dontknow:

Even though Rom 13 was "written" to Believers... it still notes that ALL POWER is of GOD, and to whom HE distributes that POWER.

:Peace:

I just wanted to clarify something here. I don't think anyone here is saying that the actual PLANT is a sin, right? I think the question revolves around USAGE not the actual plant itself. I think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 10:39:38 PMIn my youth I used marijuana OFTEN... matter of fact, in many cases -- daily!

That's why your posts are so colorful :winkgrin:

QuoteIn my later years, it is very seldom that I have used it (more about that later!).

Am I allowed one guess. Medication.

Another guess your starsign is Capricorn  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:53:01 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 10:39:38 PMIn my youth I used marijuana OFTEN... matter of fact, in many cases -- daily!

That's why your posts are so colorful :winkgrin:

Haha....I would have guessed LSD for that.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 10:42:55 PMI think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

I don't agree. Sorry.
I think the plant itself is very sinful. That's why it should be burned!

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:56:46 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 10:42:55 PMI think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

I don't agree. Sorry.
I think the plant itself is very sinful. That's why it should be burned!

LOL !!!!!  Golly ,  ha ha ha ha  :laughing7:
  as long as you dont inhale eh ?

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMIt's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber,

That's hennep. The male plant. The female plant is used for weed.

Quote from: rosered on November 25, 2009, 10:59:20 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:56:46 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 10:42:55 PMI think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

I don't agree. Sorry.
I think the plant itself is very sinful. That's why it should be burned!

LOL !!!!!  Golly ,  ha ha ha ha  :laughing7:
  as long as you dont inhale eh ?

haha...I have a feeling WW might take occasion to stretch and .......yaaaaaaawwwn

Quote from: rosered on November 25, 2009, 10:59:20 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:56:46 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 10:42:55 PMI think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

I don't agree. Sorry.
I think the plant itself is very sinful. That's why it should be burned!

LOL !!!!!  Golly ,  ha ha ha ha  :laughing7:
 as long as you dont inhale eh ?

Don't worry. I won't smoke it. It stinks. Until 22 I never smelled the stuff.
I always lived on teh edge a small city. Farmers sometimes burned leaves. Mostly of beans IIRC.
When I moved to a bigger city I smelled weed the first time in my life. In the center of the city.
Hu, farmers? Here?  :LH:

willieH: Hi brother Seth :hithere:

Thanks for your comments...  :cloud9:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 25, 2009, 06:06:36 AM
Is doing something legal, not sinful? :bigGrin:

QuoteIt can be. But I think doing a drug which is clearly illegal is sinful unless someone can prove that smoking marijuana is doing the Lord's work versus the work of man... :laughing7:

I think Beloved Servant had a good point: even if Marijuana is legal, would smoking it edify God, or please the Adam in us?

:Chinscratch:  Hmmm...

Does "eating a piece of apple pie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us? 
Does "watching a movie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us? 
Does "buying a new car" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?
Does "going on a camping trip" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?

God gave us this life to enjoy, as well as to learn of His purposes.  I do not see that using marijuana is any more, or less "edifying" -- than is any of the above.  I do not consider buying a new car, watching a movie, eating a piece of apple pie, or going on a camping trip -- as "pleasing the Adam in us"... I see these as the ENJOYMENTS of the wonder of the gift of LIFE...  :dontknow:

I can tell you this... I have written SEVERAL of my most cherished and annointed GOSPEL tunes while using marijuana...  :cloud9:

And could bet (if I were a "bettin' man"  :laughing7:), that if I played you a selection of 10 of my songs... that you would pick several of the ones written while using marijuana, as most "inspired"...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 06:46:48 PMAnything which becomes an idol in the temple (which is us) that is when it becomes sinful.

I completely agree bro... but as I noted above... is there really -- IDOLIZING --intended by ...watching a movie?

Not all of us shall enjoy the same things.  But if the WORD of God is not compromised in the enjoyment of a given thing, then to me COMPROMISE of the TEMPLE is not present.

We must be careful to use the WORD as the measure of our lives in ALL situations.  And when the WORD does not address something specifically (such as a "new car, apple pie, or marijuana"), then we must observe these things (concerning our lives) in our individual esteem as Paul notes in Rom 14:14

And in that, leave the esteem of others concerning those things, to THEM and their individual use or abstination of these within their own lives.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 06:46:48 PMThere are many gray areas of course and we could spend much time looking at gray-area circumstances, but that is why each person has a walk and each person must examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

I agree... the trouble is that most believers, use their individual determination (how they "esteem" apple pie) of these "gray areas" in their observations of others, outside themselves...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:02:18 PMhaha...I have a feeling WW might take occasion to stretch and .......yaaaaaaawwwn

To be honest I a bit scared of the stuff. For some people it has little effect and for some it hits hard. You know I'm fond of ladies. Likely to much.... But I'm proud that I never touched one "unautorized". And I like to keep it that way! I do drink alcohol. But never drink 'till you drop. Kinda for the same reason. Plus endangering others in for example traffic.
Besides I don't need the stuff to be relaxed and have fun. All I need is some smilies to play with. :myahoo:

I just had a thought, that honestly, I don't think very much.  All the bracelets and everything may have made the thought sort of become trite.

However, my thought was, what would Jesus do?

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.  Titus 2:12

For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.  I Peter 4:3

Having, then, these promises, beloved, may we cleanse ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God;  2 Cor. 7:1

..continually be imitators of God, as His early loved children...Eph. 5:1

Blessings, James.

Quote from: willieH on November 25, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
I agree... the trouble is that most believers, use their individual determination (how they "esteem" apple pie) of these "gray areas" in their observations of others, outside themselves...  :dontknow:

I think they also (partly) want to add self invented good works.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:14:03 PM

To be honest I a bit scared of the stuff. For some people it has little effect and for some it hits hard. You know I'm fond of ladies. Likely to much.... But I'm proud that I never touched one "unautorized". And I like to keep it that way! I do drink alcohol. But never drink 'till you drop. Kinda for the same reason. Plus endangering others in for example traffic.
Besides I don't need the stuff to be relaxed and have fun. All I need is some smilies to play with. :myahoo:
[/quote]

Dont worry WW the last thing you will be able to do when stoned is flirt! Its amazing my husband and I ever got together!   :banana: Squint and its a dancing spliff! I think the main 'sin' danger for most people (everyone is different) is that being too stoned makes you lazy, I have seen people completely check out of life, friends, family. BUT if you have life in Christ, life to the full then I dont think there is much danger you will check out.

QuoteHmmm...

Does "eating a piece of apple pie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?  
Does "watching a movie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?  
Does "buying a new car" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?
Does "going on a camping trip" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?

God gave us this life to enjoy, as well as to learn of His purposes.  I do not see that using marijuana is any more, or less "edifying" -- than is any of the above.  I do not consider buying a new car, watching a movie, eating a piece of apple pie, or going on a camping trip -- as "pleasing the Adam in us"... I see these as the ENJOYMENTS of the wonder of the gift of LIFE...  

I can tell you this... I have written SEVERAL of my most cherished and annointed GOSPEL tunes while using marijuana...  

And could bet (if I were a "bettin' man"  ), that if I played you a selection of 10 of my songs... that you would pick several of the ones written while using marijuana, as most "inspired"...  

Hi willie,

I actually clarified my meaning about edifying God (and who I was speaking about) throughout the convo regarding edifying God and what things may or may not get in the way of that. Pot and pie do not affect the mind the same way, and if pot brings one into its control and authority in a way to which edifying (ie embodying the character) of God is compromised, that is indeed sinful, even in as much as eating too much pie can be. The difference between the two is that pot is much more powerful than the more mundane things you brought up, like pie.

I think James nailed it as to the gradation of power in each thing that can be set up as an idol whether legal or illegal.

QuoteI completely agree bro... but as I noted above... is there really -- IDOLIZING --intended by ...watching a movie?

Right, but please see above. Read through the conversation with WW because I go into more detail about what I mean about that.

QuoteNot all of us shall enjoy the same things.  But if the WORD of God is not compromised in the enjoyment of a given thing, then to me COMPROMISE of the TEMPLE is not present.

I agree. And as I said to WW, we must each have a responsibility not in a blanket form as to what others think it is a sin, but to examine ourselves. What is really the sin is being led of another and allowing Adam to be the controlling factor (I define that later too) in our decisions.

QuoteI agree... the trouble is that most believers, use their individual determination (how they "esteem" apple pie) of these "gray areas" in their observations of others, outside themselves...  

I think it is important to use the Word as you said. for that which leads me away from the Lord is sinful, which is why I make the personal choice not to do it, and why I determined it to be sinful for me. Now, just in case there are any lurkers watching, I am not talking about relative morality, but simply how I am led of the Spirit to approach it.

But my main point was that when you said "Is marijuana use a sin" my answer is that it certainly can be. The Spirit is there for guidance.

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 11:18:54 PMHowever, my thought was, what would Jesus do?

Just guesswork but I think Jesus was a happy man. Not some grumpy person that never laughed.
I think even Jesus relaxed once in a while and simply did some other stuff than praying and in the last part of His life teaching.
Could be just me but having fun and laughing are parts of love.
God=Father. Fathers don't look grumpy all day long. Fathers laugh and play with the children and the dog.
Not a single verse to prove it. But well that's how I see them when I try to picture them.

So I think even Jesus enjoyed worldly pleasures not being sin. :2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:29:12 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 11:18:54 PMHowever, my thought was, what would Jesus do?

Just guesswork but I think Jesus was a happy man. Not some grumpy person that never laughed.
I think even Jesus relaxed once in a while and simply did some other stuff than praying and in the last part of His life teaching.
Could be just me but having fun and laughing are parts of love.
God=Father. Fathers don't look grumpy all day long. Fathers laugh and play with the children and the dog.
Not a single verse to prove it. But well that's how I see them when I try to picture them.

So I think even Jesus enjoyed worldly pleasures not being sin. :2c:

I noticed you came JUST shy of saying that Jesus would smoke pot. ;) Do you think Jesus would roll a joint and smoke out with you? I mean that honestly not a trap, just curious.

If it's in even the slightest way sinful the answer is no.
Besides of that: Could He afford it (price)? Did He find smoking (pot or not) repulsive.

Answer: It is possible.
Basicly IMO Jesus could have done anything that's not sinful.

You know I get the impression people on this forum always look up to Father, Son and HS. As if they are the very highest authority. And yes they are. But they also present themselfs as one of us.
Yes king/judge is above people. But Father, Son, is with/among the people. God walks with us. Jesus came as a humble person. Lived with humble people. There is a lesson in that for me. He could just as well have come down as the most powerful ruler ever that with a snap of His fingers crushed whole armies.
And to be among you people you must also take part of their ways. Except of course the sinful parts.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 12:28:35 AM
If it's in even the slightest way sinful the answer is no.
Besides of that: Could He afford it (price)? Did He find smoking (pot or not) repulsive.

Answer: It is possible.
Basicly IMO Jesus could have done anything that's not sinful.

You know I get the impression people on this forum always look up to Father, Son and HS. As if they are the very highest authority. And yes they are. But they also present themselfs as one of us.
Yes king/judge is above people. But Father, Son, is with/among the people. God walks with us. Jesus came as a humble person. Lived with humble people. There is a lesson in that for me. He could just as well have come down as the most powerful ruler ever that with a snap of His fingers crushed whole armies.
And to be among you people you must also take part of their ways. Except of course the sinful parts.

Lol, could he afford it? Well, he OWNED it right? ;)

willieH: Hi brother S... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHHmmm...  :Chinscratch:

Does "eating a piece of apple pie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?  
Does "watching a movie" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?  
Does "buying a new car" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?
Does "going on a camping trip" edify God?  Or please the "Adam" in us?

God gave us this life to enjoy, as well as to learn of His purposes.  I do not see that using marijuana is any more, or less "edifying" -- than is any of the above.  I do not consider buying a new car, watching a movie, eating a piece of apple pie, or going on a camping trip -- as "pleasing the Adam in us"... I see these as the ENJOYMENTS of the wonder of the gift of LIFE...  

I can tell you this... I have written SEVERAL of my most cherished and annointed GOSPEL tunes while using marijuana...  

And could bet (if I were a "bettin' man"  ), that if I played you a selection of 10 of my songs... that you would pick several of the ones written while using marijuana, as most "inspired"...  

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMHi willie,

I actually clarified my meaning about edifying God (and who I was speaking about) throughout the convo regarding edifying God and what things may or may not get in the way of that.

Cool... I was not intending to joust with you bro (:mblush:), rather, to point out that uses of such things as marijuana in its natural, UNPROCESSED, "God created state", is no different than the use of those other things.

CHRIST turned water INTO WINE... a LARGE amount of it!  At a PARTY, no less!  After much drinking had already taken place... Point being that He meant no condemnation in His action to "keep the celebration" going... and His "water/wine" was the BEST of all!

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMPot and pie do not affect the mind the same way, and if pot brings one into its control and authority in a way to which edifying (ie embodying the character) of God is compromised, that is indeed sinful

Neither does water and wine affect the mind the same way bro...  :dontknow:

I do not know your experience (or non-experience) with marijuana... but I can witness to you, that marijuana has NEVER "controlled" me OR my mind.  It has had an ENHANCING and CALMING effect if anything... and NEVER alters or "controls"... especially from an "authority" standpoint!

Let me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then? :dunno:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMeven in as much as eating too much pie can be. The difference between the two is that pot is much more powerful than the more mundane things you brought up, like pie.

~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMI think James nailed it as to the gradation of power in each thing that can be set up as an idol whether legal or illegal.

Again... IDOLIZING is not the point.  You just noted EATING is a "mundane" thing compared to using Marijuana... Tell that to an OVERWEIGHT person battling obesity.  EATING is a POWERFUL thing in such a life... and is OUT of CONTROL... and is IDOLIZED...

If on occasion and IN MODERATION (which is how anything within LIFE should be treated to avoid IDOLIZATION of it), ...I eat or smoke marijuana, how can this be IDOLIZING it?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHI completely agree bro... but as I noted above... is there really -- IDOLIZING --intended by ...watching a movie?

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMRight, but please see above. Read through the conversation with WW because I go into more detail about what I mean about that.

I will & will get back 2ya!  :winkgrin:

Quote from: willieHNot all of us shall enjoy the same things.  But if the WORD of God is not compromised in the enjoyment of a given thing, then to me COMPROMISE of the TEMPLE is not present.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMI agree. And as I said to WW, we must each have a responsibility not in a blanket form as to what others think it is a sin, but to examine ourselves. What is really the sin is being led of another and allowing Adam to be the controlling factor (I define that later too) in our decisions.

:iagree:

Quote from: willieHI agree... the trouble is that most believers, use their individual determination (how they "esteem" apple pie) of these "gray areas" in their observations of others, outside themselves...  

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMI think it is important to use the Word as you said. for that which leads me away from the Lord is sinful, which is why I make the personal choice not to do it, and why I determined it to be sinful for me. Now, just in case there are any lurkers watching, I am not talking about relative morality, but simply how I am led of the Spirit to approach it.

Again, I agree with this... If the WORD does not IMPLICATE marijuana as EVIL, then it does not.  The silence is the directive, and therefore becomes an INDIVIDUAL conviction one way or the other.  The biggest problem is the influences which bring about conviction.

IOW -- if the WORD in its SILENCE, did not bring about the conviction because it remains SILENT concerning it... then, something else brought the conviction... eh?  It is THIS"something else" -- which I bring into question.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:24:57 PMBut my main point was that when you said "Is marijuana use a sin" my answer is that it certainly can be. The Spirit is there for guidance.

So can EATING (I enjoy a good breakfast or dinner)...  :dontknow: ...or SPORTS (I enjoy sports)... or WATCHING MOVIES (I also enjoy movies -- have quite a collection!)...  :dontknow:

For if one ESTEEMS too highly the FOOD, or the ATHLETES, or the ACTORS, then one is IDOLIZING, and that dear brother is SIN, in the very same way, as is proposed of marijuana.  :JCThink:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 10:56:46 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 10:42:55 PMI think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

I don't agree. Sorry.
I think the plant itself is very sinful. That's why it should be burned!

:laughing7:

QuoteCool... I was not intending to joust with you bro

I know, I didn't take that way at all. In fact I took it the opposite.

QuoteCHRIST turned water INTO WINE... a LARGE amount of it!  At a PARTY, no less!  After much drinking had already taken place... Point being that He meant no condemnation in His action to "keep the celebration" going... and His "water/wine" was the BEST of all!

Yup, nothing wrong with that.

QuoteI do not know your experience (or non-experience) with marijuana... but I can witness to you, that marijuana has NEVER "controlled" me OR my mind.  It has had an ENHANCING and CALMING effect if anything... and NEVER alters or "controls"... especially from an "authority" standpoint!

That's good.

QuoteLet me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

What I mean by edification is the embodiment of God's character for teaching or example to others and even to one's self.

Now, I think where my words were misunderstood were the idea that I was saying that anything that does not actively edify God is sinful, as though walking, swimming, eating pie were sinful if it did not edify God. NOT what I said or meant, only that each believer who wishes to edify God must examine their motives to see if they are compromising that. Because if they are smoking pot to please the Adam nature of wanting to be led of another husband in the mind, that is how idols are created. That was more of a statement of how smoking pot CAN be sinful, rather than a blanket statement of "no" which would apply to all cases.

Quote~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

I used to smoke alot. And I have actually seen it affect both my mind and other people's minds negatively. For me, it did control my mind because it made me less than sober. I was not sober minded at all and it would lead to thoughts other than pure. I found it to be a hinderance which is why I made the choice for myself not to do it.

QuoteAgain... IDOLIZING is not the point.  

Not whose point? It was a point I made that it can become an idol more easily for some than others, which I think is a pretty valid point since it shows that pot use can become sinful.

QuoteYou just noted EATING is a "mundane" thing compared to using Marijuana... Tell that to an OVERWEIGHT person battling obesity.  EATING is a POWERFUL thing in such a life... and is OUT of CONTROL... and is IDOLIZED...

You just described me. Food has always been more my drug than anything else. Food became sinful for me. As I said, anything can become sinful, yet there is definitely a gradation of power in certain things over others, exceptions noted. For example, shooting heroine has more of a chance of bring someone into slavery than walking or swimming, GENERALLY speaking.

QuoteIf on occasion and IN MODERATION (which is how anything within LIFE should be treated to avoid IDOLIZATION of it), ...I eat or smoke marijuana, how can this be IDOLIZING it?  

Just to be clear I wasn't saying that you are idolizing it.

QuoteAgain, I agree with this... If the WORD does not IMPLICATE marijuana as EVIL, then it does not.  The silence is the directive, and therefore becomes an INDIVIDUAL conviction one way or the other.  The biggest problem is the influences which bring about conviction.

The written word wasn't really what I was talking about. The living word is never silent. But I agree with the conclusion.

QuoteSo can EATING (I enjoy a good breakfast or dinner)...   ...or SPORTS (I enjoy sports)... or WATCHING MOVIES (I also enjoy movies -- have quite a collection!)...  

For if one ESTEEMS too highly the FOOD, or the ATHLETES, or the ACTORS, then one is IDOLIZING, and that dear brother is SIN, in the very same way, as is proposed of marijuana.  

That's true, which is why I said that a plain "no" to the question of whether or not pot use is sinful does not cover the fact that it can be.

 :cloud9: And again.......this is not to any one person, speaking in situation specifics here.

The bottom line is, we live or have His Spirit life, by every word/breath that proceeds from the mouth of God. Did God tell you not to do it (WHATEVER "it" is) and you did it anyway? That's sin; simple as that.

Now what if someone can't hear God and/or doesn't read His Word?

Their conscience convicts them, UNTIL they have "silenced" it by ignoring it over and over and over again, which is why it says our conscience can be seared by a hot iron.

If you burn yourself, it creates scar tissue. As anyone who's ever had a burn knows, they are extremely painful and if it's bad enough you have a lot of thick scar tissue that does not have the normal sensitivity of the regular flesh, because it's thicker and more like calloused flesh.

So what I said applies to anything but let's go back to the particular topic. The real test of your conscience is this; if Jesus was literally sitting in the room with you, do you HONESTLY think you'd light up in front of Him?

No? Why not? I think it'd be because once you felt all that unconditional love in one spot (in spite of), and you realized all that He laid down for you, you'd feel enough gratitude (among other things) to lay down something for Him, especially after comparing what was in your hands, with what was in His. My  :2c: Blessings....  

Card, good word. This is why Paul said that honest self-evaluation is so necessary. If I smoked pot my conscious would convict me only because I know God does not want ME doing it. I feel tempted to do it, yet He leads me away. If I went against that, I would be sinning.

Anything that leads me away from "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" is a sin to me, and that is why I must continue to take every thought captive. For me, speaking individually, marijuana use would not only take me away from living soberly, but could also lead someone into it if they saw me doing it, and could destroy them as well, people I know personally. So I just made a choice not to mess with it because I don't even want that possibility at all if I can avoid it. But my situation is different than others.

I thought I'd take another crack at this topic

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:01:00 PM

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMIt's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber,

That's hennep. The male plant. The female plant is used for weed.

Yes, I know that. I was just making a point that both plants (Male and female, they're both still cannabis.) has many uses.

Quote from: natcat86 on November 25, 2009, 11:24:38 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:14:03 PM

To be honest I a bit scared of the stuff. For some people it has little effect and for some it hits hard. You know I'm fond of ladies. Likely to much.... But I'm proud that I never touched one "unautorized". And I like to keep it that way! I do drink alcohol. But never drink 'till you drop. Kinda for the same reason. Plus endangering others in for example traffic.
Besides I don't need the stuff to be relaxed and have fun. All I need is some smilies to play with. :myahoo:

Dont worry WW the last thing you will be able to do when stoned is flirt! Its amazing my husband and I ever got together!   :banana: Squint and its a dancing spliff! I think the main 'sin' danger for most people (everyone is different) is that being too stoned makes you lazy, I have seen people completely check out of life, friends, family. BUT if you have life in Christ, life to the full then I dont think there is much danger you will check out.
[/quote]

IMO, even if you're under the influence of something. It still can't "make" you do anything. You're still choosing to do whatever it is, the substance (Alcohol, Cannabis.) just makes it easier/harder.

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:31:40 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:29:12 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 25, 2009, 11:18:54 PMHowever, my thought was, what would Jesus do?

Just guesswork but I think Jesus was a happy man. Not some grumpy person that never laughed.
I think even Jesus relaxed once in a while and simply did some other stuff than praying and in the last part of His life teaching.
Could be just me but having fun and laughing are parts of love.
God=Father. Fathers don't look grumpy all day long. Fathers laugh and play with the children and the dog.
Not a single verse to prove it. But well that's how I see them when I try to picture them.

So I think even Jesus enjoyed worldly pleasures not being sin. :2c:

I noticed you came JUST shy of saying that Jesus would smoke pot. ;) Do you think Jesus would roll a joint and smoke out with you? I mean that honestly not a trap, just curious.

I have no doubt if I bought some weed to Jesus, he would smoke it with me. But I'd imagine he'd have more important things to do.

On a side note, what's with all this talk about joints/spliffs? Glass all the way man!

willieH: Hi bro...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 11:31:40 PM
I noticed you came JUST shy of saying that Jesus would smoke pot. ;) Do you think Jesus would roll a joint and smoke out with you? I mean that honestly not a trap, just curious.

Well, maybe CHRIST would not "smoke" marijuana, but what would prevent Him from EATING it?  :dontknow:  After all, ...it was HE that created marijuana as it IS!  Why should He "create" something that He found undeserving of His use?  :faint:

God has PURPOSE in ALL THINGS... and there is NOTHING in the WORD that condemns His created "herbs"... (that I have found -- have you found any?) -- many herbs are meant for and have MEDICINAL intention... not for EATING...

It is interesting that God said:

Gen 1:29 -- and God said, behold, I have given you EVERY herb bearing seed which is upon the face of the earth, and EVERY tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat

Yet EVERY herb and tree does NOT bear edible food... There are several HERBS and TREES which bear POISONOUS seed and fruit...  So this statement if carefully examined does not mean ALL TREES and HERBS are meant for FOOD... rather, ALL TREES and HERBS which are EDIBLE are meant for FOOD.

Interestingly enough, Marijuana is NOT POISONOUS, and CAN be eaten...  :dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 09:15:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2009, 05:04:48 AM
Is doing something illegal sinful?

Here it's legal. Must be at least 50 shops in town here.
By law I'm allowed to grow 4 plants.
But that's not so in many other parts of the world.
So the question is: Do God's laws in any way/sometimes (partly) depend on laws of men?

Good question, WW...

NEVER do God's laws IN ANY WAY depend on the laws of men...  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Seth...  :cloud9:

Please don't receive this answer in any other tone than brotherly love bro...

Quote from: willieHLet me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMWhat I mean by edification is the embodiment of God's character for teaching or example to others and even to one's self.

Thanks for that answer bro, but it did not really answer my question...  :dontknow:

For the record, ...what is the definition (within your perception) of the "embodiement of God's character" bro? 

This "embodiement" is a pretty big thing... and it only leads back to Him, that which HE sent out.  If marijuana was put here by Him (and it was)... and He did not specify GUIDELINES for its use... then how can we determine MISUSE of it?

As I see it, ...except by observing it with common sense, and moderation, there is no MISUSE of it...

JESUS threw over the tables in the temple... would THAT be part of the "embodiement"?  If so, how?

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMNow, I think where my words were misunderstood were the idea that I was saying that anything that does not actively edify God is sinful, as though walking, swimming, eating pie were sinful if it did not edify God. NOT what I said or meant, only that each believer who wishes to edify God must examine their motives to see if they are compromising that.

I agree... since I have become a follower of God, I have used marijuana.  And never once was my motive to be disobedient to God... Nor did I use it to "escape" anything.

Just as I would enjoy a steak (no offense to vegans), or ride a wave on a surfboard... I did it to enjoy the LIFE that God has given me... (same motive with the waves as with the pot)

Quote from: willieHBecause if they are smoking pot to please the Adam nature of wanting to be led of another husband in the mind, that is how idols are created. That was more of a statement of how smoking pot CAN be sinful, rather than a blanket statement of "no" which would apply to all cases.

I agree again...

God created SEX... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it, IS SIN...

God created ALCOHOL... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it IS SIN... see what I mean?

Anything that is within our ability to choose personal involvement, CAN be SINFUL...  but the SILENCE of Scripture concerning use of marijuana, or even Alcohol as "SIN"... is proof enough that it is NOT...

In these areas of SILENCE, ...if a man ESTEEMS it as sin... then it is SIN to that man... Rom 14:14

Quote from: willieH~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMI used to smoke alot. And I have actually seen it affect both my mind and other people's minds negatively.

Wow bro... There must be behaviors in the Bay area, that are not present in Los Angeles or Spokane!  I smoked pot for 10 solid years in Los Angeles and Spokane --- and a good 15 years (of much lesser use) in Spokane, with countless people on countless occasions, and NEVER ONCE did I ever witness NEGATIVITY arising from anyone using it in proximity to me -- NEVER ONCE!

I played in bands, went to parties where it was being used, etc.  And never witnessed another becoming negative due to the use of pot...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMFor me, it did control my mind because it made me less than sober.

Hmmm...

What do you mean by "less than sober" bro?  "Sober" has quite a few applicable meanings...  :JCThink:

In what way or ways did it "control" your mind?  :scratchhead:

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMI was not sober minded at all and it would lead to thoughts other than pure.

I see... This is understandable... but maybe marijuana was not the culprit.  Don't mean to be sarcastic... but (unfortunately) I too, have had impure thoughts during my lifetime that had nothing to do with marijuana... They were moments that I will be happy to have stricken from the record, but when this occured during the use of marijuana, it was not the marijuana that "caused" the thoughts... nor imposed control of those thoughts...  It was my mind that (in that moment) was not submitted to CHRIST, that "caused" those "impure" thoughts, not the marijuana.

Each of us is different, and I salute you for abandoning that which you find is an encumberance to your service to God (marijuana)... I do not find this encumberance concerning marijuana...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMI found it to be a hinderance which is why I made the choice for myself not to do it.

Again, what the individual personally esteems, is an individual concern.  My question in this thread was more IN GENERAL... Such as, ...what the WORD might broadcast as a direction or teaching concerning it...

Quote from: willieHAgain... IDOLIZING is not the point.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMNot whose point? It was a point I made that it can become an idol more easily for some than others, which I think is a pretty valid point since it shows that pot use can become sinful.

Brother... ANYTHING can be IDOLIZED... and most of those I know who smoke or have smoked or eaten marijuana, did not embrace it as something IDOLIZED. 

Idolatry is a pretty common thing in the human race.  Any man completely enamored by a beautiful woman, has indulged in this... Or anyone who just LOVES a given entertainer... or any SPORTS fanatic... or any CUISINE LOVER... or any DOG lover... or anyone who CLEANS his/her house obsessively... there is an UNENDING number of IDOLATRY considerations within human behavior...

How do we escape this?  As sinful entities, we cannot.  And, IMO in some ways, we should not.  Redirecting the "IDOLIZING" by giving thanks to the giftings of our Creator, in submitting ourselves to Him...

I am proud of my 33 year marriage to my beautiful wife, whom I remain PLEASED every time I see her face.  Does this mean I "idolize" her?  NO... it does not...

It means that I LOVE her, and CHERISH GOD for giving her to me... just as I give thanks to Him before breaking bread, and before going to sleep, for ALL the things He has given to me into my life... including the Detroit Lions...  :pointlaugh:

IDOLATRY is (IMO) to LOVE something, leaving GOD -- out of it!

As I said in my question above... If I use marijuana, and a wonderful and TRUTHFUL  revelation comes forth from within me, ...is this WRONG in some way, because marijuana was a part of it?  :mshock:

Quote from: willieHYou just noted EATING is a "mundane" thing compared to using Marijuana... Tell that to an OVERWEIGHT person battling obesity.  EATING is a POWERFUL thing in such a life... and is OUT of CONTROL... and is IDOLIZED...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMYou just described me. Food has always been more my drug than anything else. Food became sinful for me. As I said, anything can become sinful, yet there is definitely a gradation of power in certain things over others, exceptions noted. For example, shooting heroine has more of a chance of bring someone into slavery than walking or swimming, GENERALLY speaking.

Agreed bro... but aside from that, marijuana and heroin are 2 completely different things -- in 2 completely different categories. 

HEROIN

Heroin can KILL you if you overdose yourself. 
Heroin is PHYSICALLY addictive after the first few uses.
Heroin does NOT come from the ground -- AS IS. 
Heroin must be PROCESSED/manufactured in order to be used.

MARIJUANA

Marijuana cannot KILL you by overdose.
Marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive, even after hundreds of uses.
Marijuana COMES from the ground (and from GOD) -- AS IS
Marijuana needs NO PROCESSING to be used.

Quote from: willieHAgain, I agree with this... If the WORD does not IMPLICATE marijuana as EVIL, then it does not.  The silence is the directive, and therefore becomes an INDIVIDUAL conviction one way or the other.  The biggest problem is the influences which bring about conviction.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMThe written word wasn't really what I was talking about. The living word is never silent. But I agree with the conclusion.

I meant by "SILENCE", that GOD chose not to mention Marijuana in the written WORD, neither did He note MISUSE of it, nor did He note any directive concerning it... i.e. --> "silence".  If NOTHING is said... then NOTHING is said.

Quote from: willieHSo can EATING (I enjoy a good breakfast or dinner)...   ...or SPORTS (I enjoy sports)... or WATCHING MOVIES (I also enjoy movies -- have quite a collection!)... 

For if one ESTEEMS too highly the FOOD, or the ATHLETES, or the ACTORS, then one is IDOLIZING, and that dear brother is SIN, in the very same way, as is proposed of marijuana.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 01:10:16 AMThat's true, which is why I said that a plain "no" to the question of whether or not pot use is sinful does not cover the fact that it can be.

Same "CAN", brother S...  :dontknow:

As I previously stated... "SIN" that is not PLAINLY defined in Scripture, becomes a matter of PERSONAL conviction... and any personal conviction, must remain personal... and should not be leveled (as a measure) toward another which does not hold the same conviction...  :punish:

IOW -- you might love mayonnaise, but I do not... because I do not, ...I must be careful to not hold any ill feelings or judgment toward you -- for loving it...  :laughing7:

That I used the word "NO" in the OP... was for brevities sake, and as promised, I have had more than -- "NO" -- to say about the subject.

PS... I hope this (my belief that marijuana is NOT of itself, nor in moderate use, is evil) does not lessen our friendship in any way.   :friendstu:

Hi WillieH,
I had to make my answers short so didn't want you to think I am being short with YOU.  :grin: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH on November 26, 2009, 07:55:24 AM
Thanks for that answer bro, but it did not really answer my question...  :dontknow:

For the record, ...what is the definition (within your perception) of the "embodiement of God's character" bro?  

Being Christlike, soberminded, righteous, godly in this present age.  :dontknow:

QuoteThis "embodiement" is a pretty big thing... and it only leads back to Him, that which HE sent out.  If marijuana was put here by Him (and it was)... and He did not specify GUIDELINES for its use... then how can we determine MISUSE of it?

The leading of the Holy Spirit. And, by examining ourselves and our usage of it, which of course he guides us in. And anyone can say anything about what the Spirit leads them to do. But it's each person's issue according to their conscious.

QuoteAs I see it, ...except by observing it with common sense, and moderation, there is no MISUSE of it...

That's a big exception.

QuoteJESUS threw over the tables in the temple... would THAT be part of the "embodiement"?  If so, how?

Passion for what is right. It depends on how one is led by the Spirit.

QuoteI agree... since I have become a follower of God, I have used marijuana.  And never once was my motive to be disobedient to God... Nor did I use it to "escape" anything.

Ok.  :dontknow:

QuoteGod created SEX... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it, IS SIN...

God created ALCOHOL... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it IS SIN... see what I mean?

Bingo, that was my whole point. :thumbsup:

Improper use. And how do we determine what is improper? It's up the individual to examine himself with the guidance of the Spirit to know that.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

QuoteAnything that is within our ability to choose personal involvement, CAN be SINFUL...  but the SILENCE of Scripture concerning use of marijuana, or even Alcohol as "SIN"... is proof enough that it is NOT...

So when you ask, "is marijuana use sinful" I say "It can be." However, silence of scripture concerning the use of pot or alcohol is not proof enough for me it is not. That would be an argument from silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence). I would say the improper use of anything, including pot would be sinful even though the written word does not mention pot specifically.

Quote from: willieH~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

QuoteWow bro... There must be behaviors in the Bay area, that are not present in Los Angeles or Spokane!  I smoked pot for 10 solid years in Los Angeles and Spokane --- and a good 15 years (of much lesser use) in Spokane, with countless people on countless occasions, and NEVER ONCE did I ever witness NEGATIVITY arising from anyone using it in proximity to me -- NEVER ONCE!

I sure have, and I have been all around CA.

QuoteWhat do you mean by "less than sober" bro?  "Sober" has quite a few applicable meanings...  :JCThink:

In what way or ways did it "control" your mind?  :scratchhead:

I mean that I smoked it, and then I was stoned and my thoughts became far from God, and that is just me. It controlled my mind in that way to where I did not feel in control of my thoughts.

QuoteI see... This is understandable... but maybe marijuana was not the culprit.  Don't mean to be sarcastic... but (unfortunately) I too, have had impure thoughts during my lifetime that had nothing to do with marijuana... They were moments that I will be happy to have stricken from the record, but when this occured during the use of marijuana, it was not the marijuana that "caused" the thoughts... nor imposed control of those thoughts...  It was my mind that (in that moment) was not submitted to CHRIST, that "caused" those "impure" thoughts, not the marijuana.

Well for me, the pot was indeed the culprit.

QuoteEach of us is different, and I salute you for abandoning that which you find is an encumberance to your service to God (marijuana)... I do not find this encumberance concerning marijuana...

That's why I said that each person needs to examine himself. That was my whole point in saying that.

QuoteAgain, what the individual personally esteems, is an individual concern.  My question in this thread was more IN GENERAL... Such as, ...what the WORD might broadcast as a direction or teaching concerning it...

Now I know your question was more in general, but in fairness, you didn't specify. IMHO The Word will let people know individually whether it's fine or not.

QuoteBrother... ANYTHING can be IDOLIZED...

Brother, have I not been saying that?

Quoteand most of those I know who smoke or have smoked or eaten marijuana, did not embrace it as something IDOLIZED.  

Ok,  :dontknow:

My experiences have been different.

QuoteIdolatry is a pretty common thing in the human race.  Any man completely enamored by a beautiful woman, has indulged in this... Or anyone who just LOVES a given entertainer... or any SPORTS fanatic... or any CUISINE LOVER... or any DOG lover... or anyone who CLEANS his/her house obsessively... there is an UNENDING number of IDOLATRY considerations within human behavior...

How do we escape this? As sinful entities, we cannot.  And, IMO in some ways, we should not.

I believe Christ is what caused me to escape it.

QuoteRedirecting the "IDOLIZING" by giving thanks to the giftings of our Creator, in submitting ourselves to Him...

Yes, I agree.  :thumbsup:

QuoteI am proud of my 33 year marriage to my beautiful wife, whom I remain PLEASED every time I see her face.  Does this mean I "idolize" her?  NO... it does not...

It means that I LOVE her, and CHERISH GOD for giving her to me... just as I give thanks to Him before breaking bread, and before going to sleep, for ALL the things He has given to me into my life... including the Detroit Lions...  :pointlaugh:

IDOLATRY is (IMO) to LOVE something, leaving GOD -- out of it!

Great word! Idolatry is replacing God with something else.

QuoteAs I said in my question above... If I use marijuana, and a wonderful and TRUTHFUL  revelation comes forth from within me, ...is this WRONG in some way, because marijuana was a part of it?  :mshock:

I'm really not the judge of that in each individual case. God is your judge on matters like that, not me.  :dontknow:


A

Quotegreed bro... but aside from that, marijuana and heroin are 2 completely different things -- in 2 completely different categories.  

HEROIN

Heroin can KILL you if you overdose yourself.  
Heroin is PHYSICALLY addictive after the first few uses.
Heroin does NOT come from the ground -- AS IS.  
Heroin must be PROCESSED/manufactured in order to be used.

MARIJUANA

Marijuana cannot KILL you by overdose.
Marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive, even after hundreds of uses.
Marijuana COMES from the ground (and from GOD) -- AS IS
Marijuana needs NO PROCESSING to be used.

This is true, that heroin is different than pot. My point there was not to compare the two as similar or the same but to give and example of a gradation of things which can be more powerful than others in bringing someone to slavery. For me, food might be a bigger pull. For others pot might be that way.

QuoteI meant by "SILENCE", that GOD chose not to mention Marijuana in the written WORD, neither did He note MISUSE of it, nor did He note any directive concerning it... i.e. --> "silence".  If NOTHING is said... then NOTHING is said.

Yes I agree, in the written word it is silent. However, the living Word is given for guidance in our daily lives, who is not silent. That was my point.

Quote from: willieHSo can EATING (I enjoy a good breakfast or dinner)...   ...or SPORTS (I enjoy sports)... or WATCHING MOVIES (I also enjoy movies -- have quite a collection!)...  

For if one ESTEEMS too highly the FOOD, or the ATHLETES, or the ACTORS, then one is IDOLIZING, and that dear brother is SIN, in the very same way, as is proposed of marijuana.

QuoteAs I previously stated... "SIN" that is not PLAINLY defined in Scripture, becomes a matter of PERSONAL conviction... and any personal conviction, must remain personal... and should not be leveled (as a measure) toward another which does not hold the same conviction...  :punish:

IOW -- you might love mayonnaise, but I do not... because I do not, ...I must be careful to not hold any ill feelings or judgment toward you -- for loving it...  :laughing7:

That I used the word "NO" in the OP... was for brevities sake, and as promised, I have had more than -- "NO" -- to say about the subject.

PS... I hope this (my belief that marijuana is NOT of itself, nor in moderate use, is evil) does not lessen our friendship in any way.   :friendstu:

WillieH, I hope I am not sounding like as though I would think differently of you. In fact I think if you read my posts, they pretty much say that there is no fast and hard rule on that subject, which is something you agree with right?

BTW, I HATE mayo. That is why I smiled when I saw that.  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on November 26, 2009, 04:55:26 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 09:15:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 25, 2009, 05:04:48 AM
Is doing something illegal sinful?

Here it's legal. Must be at least 50 shops in town here.
By law I'm allowed to grow 4 plants.
But that's not so in many other parts of the world.
So the question is: Do God's laws in any way/sometimes (partly) depend on laws of men?

Good question, WW...

NEVER do God's laws IN ANY WAY depend on the laws of men...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :laughing7:

Yeah but there is also a verse like "give the king what is of the king"???
So it could be God is completly neutral about weed but somewhere in the Bible it's implied that in the neutral cases we should follow the rules of the earthly kings....?

 :thumbsup:  I've been tossing that around in my head tonight WW.  In I Peter 2:13, as well as a scripture in Hebrews, it talks about obeying the laws of the land as our service to God.  

As I think about this topic (and other things in my life - speeding  :mblush:) I just can't see how something's OK if I just don't get caught, if it is something that's against the law of the land.  Admittedly, I think this can be a difficult topic, in that "what if man's law contradicts God's law", etc.  However, when it comes to speeding or smoking pot, I'm thinking that may not be the case.

Quote from: Lupac on November 26, 2009, 03:27:32 AM
I thought I'd take another crack at this topic.

Good choice of words for this topic Lupac :thumbsup:

Quote

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 25, 2009, 11:01:00 PM

Quote from: Lupac on November 25, 2009, 05:07:08 AMIt's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber,

That's hennep. The male plant. The female plant is used for weed.

Yes, I know that. I was just making a point that both plants (Male and female, they're both still cannabis.) has many uses

You should educate our local police :winkgrin:
We have an argicultural university that does all kind of experiments. You know like finding plants that need little water (Africa) The grow stuff in green houses and in fields they own. One experiment was with the male plant. To find a eco friendly fiber IIRC. The field was hidden in a corn field. For obvious reasons..... Somehow the police dicovered it. The average police officer overhere isn't very bright. You join the police if all other jobs are taken. So they got a bulldozer and destroyed the whole field :winkgrin:
No Lupac they didn't burn down the field.

Make me think of another strory. Could be a urban legend. Near a small town in Italy a certain flower grows in abundance.
Dunno how it's called in English but some flowers like pop their ultra tiny seeds in the air let the wind spread them.
Those seeds are mildly intoxicating but the plants popped nearly at teh same time and the whole town is yearly in a state of euphoria for a few weeks.
Maybe thats the garden of Eden  :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 12:37:56 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 12:28:35 AM
If it's in even the slightest way sinful the answer is no.
Besides of that: Could He afford it (price)? Did He find smoking (pot or not) repulsive.

Answer: It is possible.
Basicly IMO Jesus could have done anything that's not sinful.

You know I get the impression people on this forum always look up to Father, Son and HS. As if they are the very highest authority. And yes they are. But they also present themselfs as one of us.
Yes king/judge is above people. But Father, Son, is with/among the people. God walks with us. Jesus came as a humble person. Lived with humble people. There is a lesson in that for me. He could just as well have come down as the most powerful ruler ever that with a snap of His fingers crushed whole armies.
And to be among you people you must also take part of their ways. Except of course the sinful parts.

Lol, could he afford it? Well, he OWNED it right? ;)

Humz, personally I think He payed for the food and other goods on the market. Instead of just taking it away. :winkgrin:

Marijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.  It can have a lot of bad side effects.  In particular, the brains of children are growing and developing until 25 years of age, and it can negatively impact the developing brain by changing the brain chemistry and structural integrity of the brain which can result in behavior problems, mental problems,  addiction, and other problems for the individual and society.



Marijuana side effects come from smoking or consuming the drug and marijuana side effects influence the mind and body of the user. Marijuana side effects can be as seemingly innocent as an increased appetite to as life threatening as lung cancer. Increased likelihood for accidents is also one of the marijuana side effects. Studies show that 6 to 11 percent of fatal accidents are contributed to by marijuana side effects. Other external marijuana side effects include legal problems, work and financial problems and troubles at home.

Marijuana is most often smoked but can be eaten or steeped in tea to drink. Most over-doses occur actually when the drug is eaten because it is easier to consume a large dose all at once. Marijuana side effects from an overdose include toxic psychosis including hallucinations, delusions and a loss of self-identification. When smoked, marijuana is rolled up into a cigarette called a joint or smoked in a pipe or water pipe called a bong. Marijuana has many street names like pot, hash, chronic and there are many paraphernalia available to smoke it.

Over 11 million people smoked marijuana last month. Many may not have severe marijuana side effects from taking the drug but many people will. Marijuana side effects include physical problems like breathing difficulties and deteriorating physical abilities. Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do. The marijuana side effects from this extra exertion on the body include a higher risk for lung cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

Marijuana side effects also wreak havoc on the brain when the drug is used habitually. The natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use. Depression often occurs with marijuana usage, which feeds into the cycle of more drug use to treat the pain created by drug use. This cycle of addiction is very powerful and users soon find that they cannot stop using the drug even if they want to.

Marijuana addiction is a progressive disease and marijuana side effects include withdrawal and obsessive thought with the drug when it is not made available. Addiction is identified as a compulsive, uncontrollable craving for the drug even with pending negative consequences. Often users will attempt to stop smoking marijuana for an important event such as a job interview or court hearing and find themselves using very close or just before the event. This act goes beyond a flexing of willpower. This describes being enveloped by a disease that has taken control and needs to be treated.

http://www.marijuana-addiction.net/marijuana-side-effects.htm

The Bible tells us that our mind is the enemy of God. Or something to that extend.
It blocks contact with our 'inside'.
But mild use of pot or alcohol seems to relax people. Often the whole atmosphere gets more like one of friendship.
But the brain sorta switches to a lower gear. Doesn't that mean pot reduces the enimity towards God?
Just a thought.....

1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.  2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 ...think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith  Rom. 12

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 10:29:30 AM
The Bible tells us that our mind is the enemy of God. Or something to that extend.
It blocks contact with our 'inside'.
But mild use of pot or alcohol seems to relax people. Often the whole atmosphere gets more like one of friendship.
But the brain sorta switches to a lower gear. Doesn't that mean pot reduces the enimity towards God?
Just a thought.....

The Bible tells us God gives us a sound mind, not a drugged out, doped up mind.

But, more than that, think about it--these drugs started becoming widespread in our country around the time when the elites started pushing their final agenda--and they needed people to drop out and just not be present or to care what they did in the world and to the world.

So you see the Vietnam war, an undeclared illegal war, happening at the same time as the hippie make love not war generation was coming into adulthood.  That generation could have changed the course of our country because they were the baby boomers, based on sheer numbers--had they not been so diverted by sex, drugs, and rock and roll.  None of that happened by accident.

 :cloud9: I'm not sure why there is such an emphasis on the fact it comes from the earth, but nearly everyone I have ever listened to about this, mentions that. So did Cain's offering and look where it got him. And since our body is God's temple, and our heart is the stone(y) altar, isn't that like an offering from the ground again? Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMMarijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.

According to many. And according to many it's not.
Here we have a few Christian political parties. They set a standard of lies that is even out of reach for satan.
Anyway joint-is-bad scientificly backed reports often come from those circles.
But equally scientific reports state it's harmless.

I think it's extremly important not to confuse cannabis with secret ingredient X.
Best example is perhaps XTC.
It was used very often on house parties. If used pure and with drinking lots of water it's a great drug to keep dancing all night long. But some criminal minds started mixing in all kinda stuff like PCP and whatever is cheap. Then it got really dangerous.

For pot I'm not so sure, so I hope air head Willie  :laughing7: will correct me if I'm wrong.
I see people growing cannabis by just taking a large bucket put in a few seeds and water the plant. That's it.
I also see it done much more profesional. Plants don't drink water but lets call it 'chemical substance'.
Maybe the stuff is harmless. But it just as well could be bad. In that case the joint is bad. Then we should ask ourself the question. What exactly is bad? The natural cannabis plant or the toxic waste man puts in it.

If I give you a poisoned apple and you die. Did you die of the apple or the poison....?

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:40:34 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 10:29:30 AM
The Bible tells us that our mind is the enemy of God. Or something to that extend.
It blocks contact with our 'inside'.
But mild use of pot or alcohol seems to relax people. Often the whole atmosphere gets more like one of friendship.
But the brain sorta switches to a lower gear. Doesn't that mean pot reduces the enimity towards God?
Just a thought.....

The Bible tells us God gives us a sound mind, not a drugged out, doped up mind.

But, more than that, think about it--these drugs started becoming widespread in our country around the time when the elites started pushing their final agenda--and they needed people to drop out and just not be present or to care what they did in the world and to the world.

So you see the Vietnam war, an undeclared illegal war, happening at the same time as the hippie make love not war generation was coming into adulthood.  That generation could have changed the course of our country because they were the baby boomers, based on sheer numbers--had they not been so diverted by sex, drugs, and rock and roll.  None of that happened by accident.

I've been thinking along these lines Molly.  In fact, I've said what's happening right now is a culmination of what started in the 60's.  We've just been building to this point.  I believe if one looks back with open eyes, there are MANY signs littered along the way.  God help us.  Bring your salvation and deliverance.  Judgment begins at the house of the Lord.  Thankfully, when God's judgments are in the land, we learn righteousness.

QuoteWhat exactly is bad? The natural cannabis plant or the toxic waste man put in it.

I'm not going to search for the scientific studies tonight, but I know they exist because I've seen them.  Any mind altering drug is dangerous because it is changing the chemistry of the brain.  Once you change the chemistry of the brain, you have no guarantee it will revert to normal, especially in younger subjects.  We are talking here about a drug that can cause halucinations, delusions, paranoia, and is well known as a stepping stone to the opiates and other addictive drugs.

This whole drug thing is a way to get people to drop out and not care what they do.  It's been used for decades to control societies all over the world.  How do you think the British built their empire?

 :cloud9: I've talked to people in my lifetime that there in the formation of some organizations that will remain nameless from their very beginnings were tied into the cold war Russians funds trying to make us communist leaning people.

And they said that the Russians also financed the beginnings of the drug trade here for the express purpose of destroying us from within. Given that introduced generational curses, I'd say they've done a pretty good job of it. Blessings....

If somebody could just tell these kids whose pockets their money is going into so they can be destroyed in body, mind, and soul, and what that money is being used for, none of them would ever touch another drug again.

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 11:05:46 AMwhose pockets their money is going into

You mean the Crack Import Agency?  :laughing7:

 :Whistle:

intersting how this thread got 4 pages with replies and the alcohol one only 1 so far...

i'm addicted to jelly sweets...is that an adamic sin?

Well maybe in America pot smoking is all part of a conspiracy to dull the minds of the proles. But drugs like weed have been used for thousands of years by civilisations from all over the world, for medicine, spiritual experience, social bonding experiences and just plain fun.

Its not all about America guys!  :gblum:

:kiss2:

 :cloud9: whah??? You didn't get the memo, either? LOL Happy Thanksgiving guys.........

I wasn't going to reply again, but Molly, congratulations! I'm going to pick apart ever paragraph you posted from the lying marijuana addiction site. I will use http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/ (http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/) as my main source, since they cite their sources, unlike your site.

Quote
Marijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.  It can have a lot of bad side effects.  In particular, the brains of children are growing and developing until 25 years of age, and it can negatively impact the developing brain by changing the brain chemistry and structural integrity of the brain which can result in behavior problems, mental problems,  addiction, and other problems for the individual and society.

I want you to show me a study where the evidence led to that conclusion.

QuoteMyth: Marijuana Can Cause Permanent Mental Illness. Among adolescents, even occasional marijuana use may cause psychological damage. During intoxication, marijuana users become irrational and often behave erratically.

Fact: There is no convincing scientific evidence that marijuana causes psychological damage or mental illness in either teenagers or adults. Some marijuana users experience psychological distress following marijuana ingestion, which may include feelings of panic, anxiety, and paranoia. Such experiences can be frightening, but the effects are temporary. With very large doses, marijuana can cause temporary toxic psychosis. This occurs rarely, and almost always when marijuana is eaten rather than smoked. Marijuana does not cause profound changes in people's behavior.

    *
      Iverson, Leslie. "Long-term effects of exposure to cannabis." Current Opinion in Pharmacology 5(2005): 69-72.

    *

      Weiser and Noy. "Interpreting the association between cannabis use and increased risk of schizophrenia." Dialogues in Clincal Neuroscience 1(2005): 81-85.
    *
      "Cannabis use will impair but not damage mental health." London Telegraph. 23 January 2006.

    *
      Andreasson, S. et al. "Cannabis and Schizophrenia: A Longitudinal study of Swedish Conscripts," The Lancet  2 (1987): 1483-86.

    *
      Degenhardt, Louisa, Wayne Hall and Michael Lynskey.  "Testing hypotheses about the relationship between cannabis use and psychosis," Drug and Alcohol Dependence 71 (2003): 42-4.

    *
      Weil, A. "Adverse Reactions to Marijuana: Classification and Suggested Treatment." New England Journal of Medicine 282 (1970): 997-1000.

and

QuoteMyth: Marijuana Is More Potent Today Than In The Past. Adults who used marijuana in the 1960s and 1970s fail to realize that when today's youth use marijuana they are using a much more dangerous drug.

Fact: When today's youth use marijuana, they are using the same drug used by youth in the 1960s and 1970s. A small number of low-THC samples seized by the Drug Enforcement Administration are used to calculate a dramatic increase in potency. However, these samples were not representative of the marijuana generally available to users during this era. Potency data from the early 1980s to the present are more reliable, and they show no increase in the average THC content of marijuana. Even if marijuana potency were to increase, it would not necessarily make the drug more dangerous. Marijuana that varies quite substantially in potency produces similar psychoactive effects.

    *
      King LA, Carpentier C, Griffiths P. "Cannabis potency in Europe." Addiction. 2005 Jul; 100(7):884-6
    *
      Henneberger, Melinda. "Pot Surges Back, But It's, Like, a Whole New World." New York Times 6 February 1994: E18.

    *
      Brown, Lee. "Interview with Lee Brown," Dallas Morning News 21 May 1995.

    *
      Drug Enforcement Administration. U.S. Drug Threat Assessment, 1993. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, 1993.

    *
      Kleiman, Mark A.R. Marijuana: Costs of Abuse, Costs of Control. Westport: Greenwood Press, 1989. 29.

    *
      Bennett, William. Director of National Drug Control Policy, remarks at Conference of Mayors. 23 April 1990.

QuoteMarijuana side effects come from smoking or consuming the drug and marijuana side effects influence the mind and body of the user. Marijuana side effects can be as seemingly innocent as an increased appetite to as life threatening as lung cancer. Increased likelihood for accidents is also one of the marijuana side effects. Studies show that 6 to 11 percent of fatal accidents are contributed to by marijuana side effects. Other external marijuana side effects include legal problems, work and financial problems and troubles at home.

YOU CAN'T GET LUNG CANCER FROM SMOKING CANNABIS! Damn, how many times do I have to repeat this. No study has even led to evidence that it might cause cancer. I'll cite TWO sources for this, one is from http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508 (http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508)

QuoteFor 30 years, Donald Tashkin has studied the effects of marijuana on lung function. His work has been funded by the vehemently anti-marijuana National Institute on Drug Abuse, which has long sought to demonstrate that marijuana causes lung cancer. After 3 decades of anti-drug research, here's what Tashkin has to say about marijuana laws:


    "Early on, when our research appeared as if there would be a negative impact on lung health, I was opposed to legalization because I thought it would lead to increased use and that would lead to increased health effects," Tashkin says. "But at this point, I'd be in favor of legalization. I wouldn't encourage anybody to smoke any substances. But I don't think it should be stigmatized as an illegal substance. Tobacco smoking causes far more harm. And in terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm." [McClatchy]

    UCLA's Tashkin studied heavy marijuana smokers to determine whether the use led to increased risk of lung cancer and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or COPD. He hypothesized that there would be a definitive link between cancer and marijuana smoking, but the results proved otherwise.

     

    "What we found instead was no association and even a suggestion of some protective effect," says Tashkin, whose research was the largest case-control study ever conducted.

QuoteMyth: Marijuana is More Damaging to the Lungs Than Tobacco. Marijuana smokers are at a high risk of developing lung cancer, bronchitis, and emphysema.

Fact: Moderate smoking of marijuana appears to pose minimal danger to the lungs. Like tobacco smoke, marijuana smoke contains a number of irritants and carcinogens. But marijuana users typically smoke much less often than tobacco smokers, and over time, inhale much less smoke. As a result, the risk of serious lung damage should be lower in marijuana smokers. There have been no reports of lung cancer related solely to marijuana, and in a large study presented to the American Thoracic Society in 2006, even heavy users of smoked marijuana were found not to have any increased risk of lung cancer. Unlike heavy tobacco smokers, heavy marijuana smokers exhibit no obstruction of the lung's small airway. That indicates that people will not develop emphysema from smoking marijuana.

    *
      Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. "Legalization: Panacea or Pandora's Box." New York. (1995): 36.

    *
      Turner, Carlton E. The Marijuana Controversy. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1981.

    *
      Nahas, Gabriel G. and Nicholas A. Pace. Letter. "Marijuana as Chemotherapy Aid Poses Hazards." New York Times 4 December 1993: A20.

    *
      Inaba, Darryl S. and William E. Cohen. Uppers, Downers, All-Arounders: Physical and Mental Effects of Psychoactive Drugs. 2nd ed. Ashland: CNS Productions, 1995. 174.

As for the driving accidents:

QuoteMyth: Marijuana Use is a Major Cause Of Highway Accidents. Like alcohol, marijuana impairs psychomotor function and decreases driving ability. If marijuana use increases, an increase in of traffic fatalities is inevitable.

Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

    *
      Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. "Legalization: Panacea or Pandora's Box". New York. (1995):36.

    *
      Swan, Neil. "A Look at Marijuana's Harmful Effects." NIDA Notes. 9.2 (1994): 14.

    *
      Moskowitz, Herbert and Robert Petersen. Marijuana and Driving: A Review. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1982. 7.

    *
      Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1985. 265.

Quote
Marijuana is most often smoked but can be eaten or steeped in tea to drink. Most over-doses occur actually when the drug is eaten because it is easier to consume a large dose all at once. Marijuana side effects from an overdose include toxic psychosis including hallucinations, delusions and a loss of self-identification. When smoked, marijuana is rolled up into a cigarette called a joint or smoked in a pipe or water pipe called a bong. Marijuana has many street names like pot, hash, chronic and there are many paraphernalia available to smoke it.

First of all, THC, and other cannabinoids are not water soluble, this means you can't collect it in water by cooking it in water. Just wanted to make that clear. YOU CANNOT OVERDOSE ON CANNABIS! Read this:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/827177/how_marijuana_can_kill_you_why_a_cannabis.html?cat=22 (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/827177/how_marijuana_can_kill_you_why_a_cannabis.html?cat=22)

That's right, you'd have to eat or smoke 1500 pounds of the stuff in 15 minutes! You show me someone who can do that. Also, they get the names wrong, pot is fine, hash is made from just the tri... You know what? Forget it.

QuoteOver 11 million people smoked marijuana last month. Many may not have severe marijuana side effects from taking the drug but many people will. Marijuana side effects include physical problems like breathing difficulties and deteriorating physical abilities. Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do. The marijuana side effects from this extra exertion on the body include a higher risk for lung cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

What, really? You believe this? It speeds up aging like meth? Wha? I'm stumped, only because that argument is so stupid, no one has ever made it before. I will leave you with this:

QuoteMyth: Marijuana's Harms Have Been Proved Scientifically. In the 1960s and 1970s, many people believed that marijuana was harmless. Today we know that marijuana is much more dangerous than previously believed.

Fact: In 1972, after reviewing the scientific evidence, the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse concluded that while marijuana was not entirely safe, its dangers had been grossly overstated. Since then, researchers have conducted thousands of studies of humans, animals, and cell cultures. None reveal any findings dramatically different from those described by the National Commission in 1972. In 1995, based on thirty years of scientific research editors of the British medical journal Lancet concluded that "the smoking of cannabis, even long term, is not harmful to health."

    *
      United States. National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse. Marihuana: A signal of misunderstanding. Shafer Commission Report. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1972.

    *
      "Deglamorising Cannabis." Editorial. The Lancet 356:11(1995): 124

Quote
Marijuana side effects also wreak havoc on the brain when the drug is used habitually. The natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use. Depression often occurs with marijuana usage, which feeds into the cycle of more drug use to treat the pain created by drug use. This cycle of addiction is very powerful and users soon find that they cannot stop using the drug even if they want to.

Marijuana addiction is a progressive disease and marijuana side effects include withdrawal and obsessive thought with the drug when it is not made available. Addiction is identified as a compulsive, uncontrollable craving for the drug even with pending negative consequences. Often users will attempt to stop smoking marijuana for an important event such as a job interview or court hearing and find themselves using very close or just before the event. This act goes beyond a flexing of willpower. This describes being enveloped by a disease that has taken control and needs to be treated.

http://www.marijuana-addiction.net/marijuana-side-effects.htm

These arguments are so off the wall, I don't even know how to reply to them. It's like, arguing a TV is dangerous because something could come out of the screen and kill you.

QuoteMyth: Marijuana Impairs Memory and Cognition. Under the influence of marijuana, people are unable to think rationally and intelligently. Chronic marijuana use causes permanent mental impairment.

Fact: Marijuana produces immediate, temporary changes in thoughts, perceptions, and information processing. The cognitive process most clearly affected by marijuana is short-term memory. In laboratory studies, subjects under the influence of marijuana have no trouble remembering things they learned previously. However, they display diminished capacity to learn and recall new information. This diminishment only lasts for the duration of the intoxication. There is no convincing evidence that heavy long-term marijuana use permanently impairs memory or other cognitive functions.

    *
      Wetzel, C.D. et al., "Remote Memory During Marijuana Intoxication," Psychopharmacology 76 (1982): 278-81.

    *
      Deadwyler, S.A. et al., "The Effects of Delta-9-THC on Mechanisms of Learning and Memory." Neurobiology of Drug Abuse:  Learning and Memory. Ed. L. Erinoff. Rockville, MD: National Institute on Drug Abuse 1990. 79-83.

    *
      Block, R.I. et al., "Acute Effects of Marijuana on Cognition: Relationships to Chronic Effects and Smoking Techniques." Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior 43 (1992): 907-917.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 26, 2009, 05:29:26 PMHappy Thanksgiving guys.........

That holyday is completly gone here.
Fun fact: First celebration in the (now) USA St. Augustine Florida September 8th 1565

One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 10:43:47 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMMarijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.

According to many. And according to many it's not.
Here we have a few Christian political parties. They set a standard of lies that is even out of reach for satan.
Anyway joint-is-bad scientificly backed reports often come from those circles.
But equally scientific reports state it's harmless.

I think it's extremly important not to confuse cannabis with secret ingredient X.
Best example is perhaps XTC.
It was used very often on house parties. If used pure and with drinking lots of water it's a great drug to keep dancing all night long. But some criminal minds started mixing in all kinda stuff like PCP and whatever is cheap. Then it got really dangerous.

For pot I'm not so sure, so I hope air head Willie  :laughing7: will correct me if I'm wrong.
I see people growing cannabis by just taking a large bucket put in a few seeds and water the plant. That's it.
I also see it done much more profesional. Plants don't drink water but lets call it 'chemical substance'.
Maybe the stuff is harmless. But it just as well could be bad. In that case the joint is bad. Then we should ask ourself the question. What exactly is bad? The natural cannabis plant or the toxic waste man puts in it.

If I give you a poisoned apple and you die. Did you die of the apple or the poison....?

Very few people will lace weed, because of one simple fact. It scares customers away. The dealer is trying to make money, other drugs cost money, sometimes more than the weed itself. However, there are some things done to street weed that make it dangerous. It's referred to as "grit weed" here in America. The dealer will add things like ground up glass, or an unidentifiable powered to make it weigh more. This is dangerous, but it isn't the cannabis' fault.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:05:33 PM
One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Ah, the old "Marijuana Funds Terrorism" argument. First of all, the only people that destroy their lives are the dealers, and the ones growing it. Because it's illegal. (In the USA) The DEA has destroyed more lives than every illegal drug combined. I suggest you watch a movie called "The Union". Just search on google videos and you'll find it.

I picked out just one argument. That's about contrary to every medical paper ever published...

Quote from: MollyDespite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do.

Activty like sports, walking or even climbing stairs is very often recommeded because people tend to move way to less.
Advice like cycle 20 minutes a day are very comon. Often with the added note that you should be at or above 70% of you capacity. Meaning increased heart rate. Or look up what sex and orgasms do to your heart arte and blood pressure.

Lupac.
I do hear the THC argument of Molly quite often here. My country is quite liberal on drugs and even those who 'support' it also speak about higer levels.

I agree, to think after thousands of years of cannabis growing and changing, we could do something to it in three decades to increase the potency 200% or whatever the number is, is just stupid and egotistical.

Quote from: Lupac on November 26, 2009, 06:08:59 PMVery few people will lace weed, because of one simple fact.

I don't know what laced means. But I guess it's adding stuff?
Can the quality vary debending how weed is grown?
Meat is not dangerous. But when the cows are grow with growth hormone it no longer is good stuff.
Nothing is mixed with the meat (as in laced???) but the growing of the meat/weed is 'poluted'
That's not an argument but a honest question.

Quote

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:05:33 PM
One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Ah, the old "Marijuana Funds Terrorism" argument. First of all, the only people that destroy their lives are the dealers, and the ones growing it. Because it's illegal. (In the USA) The DEA has destroyed more lives than every illegal drug combined. I suggest you watch a movie called "The Union". Just search on google videos and you'll find it.

Funny argument. Here downloading/copying movies is legal. But we have our version of RIAA. They also try to link downloading a movie to funding Bin Laden. Follow the money I would say...
Besides even if 1 joint funds a 1000 carbombings it doesn't make the joint itselfs more/less addictive.

Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
If one man can say it is not an idol to me, the actions of mankind says the opposite.
Generations can not put it down.

And yes, that fact that it destroys lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN is the greater folly.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:39:37 PM
Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.

Again something for Lupac to answer in a more detailed manner.
In a bar it's not uncommon a someone selling the stuff appear in that bar. Bit like a photo album with all those little pockets in it. Anyway there are ober 20-30 different sort of weed in that 'album'
All differently priced. That's all I know about it because I have zero interest in smoking the stuff. But my guess is that some stuff is the regular stuff and others the "improved" version. Perhaps the price just varies because of the origin of the weed.  Some is for example called "Maroc" I guess that come sfrom Marocco and adds shipping fees.
Lupac?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 06:39:25 PM

Quote from: Lupac on November 26, 2009, 06:08:59 PMVery few people will lace weed, because of one simple fact.

I don't know what laced means. But I guess it's adding stuff?
Can the quality vary debending how weed is grown?
Meat is not dangerous. But when the cows are grow with growth hormone it no longer is good stuff.
Nothing is mixed with the meat (as in laced???) but the growing of the meat/weed is 'poluted'
That's not an argument but a honest question.

Quote

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:05:33 PM
One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Ah, the old "Marijuana Funds Terrorism" argument. First of all, the only people that destroy their lives are the dealers, and the ones growing it. Because it's illegal. (In the USA) The DEA has destroyed more lives than every illegal drug combined. I suggest you watch a movie called "The Union". Just search on google videos and you'll find it.

Funny argument. Here downloading/copying movies is legal. But we have our version of RIAA. They also try to link downloading a movie to funding Bin Laden. Follow the money I would say...
Besides even if 1 joint funds a 1000 carbombings it doesn't make the joint itselfs more/less addictive.

Lacing just means to add other drugs to the weed by sprinkling it onto the weed. It's hard to say what the most common is, since it's very rare. But it seems like the rarer the happening, the more hyped up it is. You hardly hear about grit weed, because coke and PCP are much more "sensational" than broken glass.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:39:37 PM
Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
If one man can say it is not an idol to me, the actions of mankind says the opposite.
Generations can not put it down.

And yes, that fact that it destroys lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN is the greater folly.

But what I'm trying to say is, how does it destroy other lives? The police arresting sellers/dealers/smokers? Than the fact that it is illegal is the problem. Earlier you were talking about it destroying kids lives. How? No one with half a brain would sell to a kid, you know why? Kids have NO MONEY. As I said before, it is not physically addicting, like tobacco, or harder drugs. It can be mentally addicting. In the same way that, oh say, World of Warcraft can be addicting. I've known many people who put their whole lives on hold, just so they can play that game. Should we make World of Warcraft illegal? Maybe arrest the sellers of this "evil" game. Track the IP addresses of the ones playing it and put them in jail. We must protect the public. You see how ridiculous this is?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 26, 2009, 06:48:46 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 26, 2009, 06:39:37 PM
Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.

Again something for Lupac to answer in a more detailed manner.
In a bar it's not uncommon a someone selling the stuff appear in that bar. Bit like a photo album with all those little pockets in it. Anyway there are ober 20-30 different sort of weed in that 'album'
All differently priced. That's all I know about it because I have zero interest in smoking the stuff. But my guess is that some stuff is the regular stuff and others the "improved" version. Perhaps the price just varies because of the origin of the weed.  Some is for example called "Maroc" I guess that come sfrom Marocco and adds shipping fees.
Lupac?

Weed is priced based on quality, like alcohol. But unlike alcohol, (or maybe like it? I don't drink very often.) weed quality changes the high. Generally, the higher quality the weed, the less likely you'll experience some of the more annoying side effects of it. (Like headache, or dry mouth.) And usually, the high will last longer and be more enjoyable. Again, I recommend watching "The Union", it'll put everything into prospective.

1Co 6:12  All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

1Co 10:23  All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

Marijuana May Disrupt Brain Development
By LiveScience Staff

posted: 03 February 2009 10:20 am ET



The term pot-head takes on new meaning with a study that suggests adolescents and young adults who smoked a lot of marijuana are more likely than non-users to have disrupted brain development.

Using brain scans, researchers found abnormalities in areas of the brain that interconnect brain regions involved in memory, attention, decision-making, language and executive functioning skills.

The findings are of particular concern because adolescence is a crucial period for brain development and maturation, the researchers note.

"Studies of normal brain development reveal critical areas of the brain that develop during late adolescence, and our study shows that heavy cannabis use is associated with damage in those brain regions," said study leader Manzar Ashtari of the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

The findings are considered preliminary, however, and more research is needed to confirm the work. The results, announced today, were detailed in the Journal of Psychiatric Research last month.

The study

This is not the first research to suggest marijuana damages the brain. In previous reseach involving memory skill stests, subjects who'd smoked too much did poorly. But brain imaging can reveal specifics.

In an admittedly small study, Ashtari and colleagues performed imaging studies on 14 young men (average age 19) from a residential drug treatment center in New York State, as well as 14 healthy men of the same age.

The 14 subjects from the drug treatment center all had a history of heavy cannabis use during adolescence. On average, they had smoked marijuana from age 13 till age 18 or 19, and reported smoking nearly 6 marijuana joints daily in the final year before they stopped using the drug.

The brain scans measureed water movement through brain tissues.

"The abnormal patterns of water diffusion that we found among the young men with histories of marijuana use suggest damage or an arrest in development of the myelin sheath that surrounds brain cells," Ashtari said.

Myelin provides a coating around brain cells similar to insulation covering an electrical wire. If myelin does not function properly, signaling within the brain may be slower. Myelin gives its color to the white matter of the brain, and covers the nerve fibers that connect different brain regions.

"Our results suggest that early-onset substance use may alter the development of white matter circuits, especially those connections among the frontal, parietal and temporal regions of the brain," Ashtari said. "Abnormal white matter development could slow information transfer in the brain and affect cognitive functions."

Study shortcomings

Ashtari pointed out shortcomings in the study, however.

For one, it involved a small number of subjects. Also, five of the 14 subjects with heavy cannabis use also had a history of alcohol abuse, which may have contributed an effect. Also, it is possible that the brain abnormalities may have predisposed the subjects to drug dependence, rather than drug usage causing the brain abnormalities.

"Further research should be done to investigate the relation between repeated marijuana use and white matter development," Ashtari said. "However, our work reinforces the idea that the adolescent brain may be especially vulnerable to risky behaviors such as substance abuse, because of crucial neural development that occurs during those years."

The work was funded by the National Institute of Mental Health.

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

Okay Molly, you got me. Oh wait. I never advocated that kids should smoke cannabis. If legal, it should be sold like cigarettes or alcohol, and have a over 18-21 only law. Now that we're past that, read this:

http://www.physorg.com/news157280425.html (http://www.physorg.com/news157280425.html)

Quote(PhysOrg.com) -- It appears that when it comes to teen brain development, parents should be more worried about alcohol abuse than marijuana abuse. Two recent studies have been published showing that alcohol -- a legal substance (though not legal for teens in the U.S.) -- is considered more dangerous than marijuana, which is illegal in many countries.

One study has been published in the U.S., in the journal Clinical EEG and neuroscience: official journal of the EEG and Clinical Neuroscience Society (ENCS), and shows that alcohol has a stronger effect on teen brain development than marijuana. The other is a study published in the Lancet, offering the results of substance classification by a number of U.K. professionals, purporting that alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana to individuals and to society.

The U.S. study was undertaken by Squeglia, Jacobus and Tapert in a San Diego State University/University of California San Diego joint doctoral program. The study looks at teen brain development for its uniqueness, as well as for the effects that substance abuse has on the brain during this time. Because alcohol and marijuana are commonly used by high school students, it is little surprise that the study is interested in the brain abnormalities stemming from abuse of these substances.

When the brain abnormalities were measured -- seen in terms of brain functioning and structure, cognitive tasks and quality of white matter -- it appeared as though alcohol had a great effect than marijuana. Heavy drinking was defined 20 drinks per month, and the abnormalities were detectable. In heavy marijuana users, abnormalities existed, but not to the same degree as those seen in alcohol abusers.

Findings from the U.S. study, showing that alcohol use in teens causes more irregular brain function than marijuana, would seem to square with efforts in the U.K. to encourage new drug classification. In the Lancet, David Nutt at Bristol University, along with his colleagues, asked psychologists and scientifically or medically trained police to rank different substances according to how harmful they are. The study purports that experts rank alcohol (and tobacco) as more harmful than marijuana. In a list of 20 substances, alcohol came in at number five, tobacco came in at number nine, and marijuana/cannabis came in at number eleven.

These studies are likely to add fuel to movements in both the U.S. and the U.K. to re-classify marijuana. Supporters of fewer restrictions on marijuana will undoubtedly point to scientific studies that show we already legalize less dangerous substances.

I don't think kids should be binge drinking anymore than they should be getting high. Also, the study used 28 people, which only 14 were using cannabis, there is no way that is statistically accurate;. I could take 14 random people and compare them to 14 smokers and get any result I want.

Here is proof that "marijuana" does nothing to an adolescent brain: (It's too long to post.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524733/?tool=pmcentrez (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524733/?tool=pmcentrez)

Science: Heavy cannabis use without long-term effect on global intelligence:
http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/bulletin/ww_en_db_cannabis_artikel.php?id=115#2 (http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/bulletin/ww_en_db_cannabis_artikel.php?id=115#2)

QuoteCanadian researcher compared the intelligence quotient (IQ) of 15 current heavy users of cannabis, 9 current light users, 9 former regular users and 37 non-users in a group of 70 young people. Participants had been followed since birth and now were 17-20 years old.

Current marijuana use was significantly correlated in a dose-related fashion with a decline in IQ when compared to the IQ measured at age 9-12. In current heavy users the IQ showed a decrease of 4.1 points, compared to gains in IQ points for light current users (5.8), former users (3.5) and non-users (2.6).

The authors concluded that current cannabis use "had a negative effect on global IQ score only in subjects who smoked 5 or more joints per week" and that "marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence."

Former users had smoked marijuana regularly in the past but not for at least 3 months. Current heavy use was defined as smoking at least 5 joints per week. Light users smoked less than 5 joints per week.

(Source: Fried P, et al. Current and former marijuana use: preliminary findings of a longitudinal study of effects on IQ in young adults. CMAJ 2002;166(7):887-91)

Study Shows Marijuana Promotes Neuron Growth:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=253377&rel_no=1 (http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=253377&rel_no=1)

Marijuana May Spur New Brain Cells:
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5921 (http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5921)

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects:
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509/version/1 (http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509/version/1)

Your move...

The part of the brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully develop until age 25.
A National Institutes of Health study suggests that the region of the brain that inhibits risky behavior is not fully formed until age 25, a finding with implications for a host of policies, including the nation's driving laws.

"We'd thought the highest levels of physical and brain maturity were reached by age 18, maybe earlier -- so this threw us," said Jay Giedd, a pediatric psychiatrist leading the study, which released its first results in April. That makes adolescence "a dangerous time, when it should be the best."

So that is why teenagers are so reckless. Hardly comforting news. You can know this and they will still be reckless after all.



http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000603.html



How Do You Survive the Teen Years...
If Brain Development Isn't Complete until 25?
Ellen Frankenberg, Ph.D.

New research is now indicating what you and I have long suspected: the human brain is not fully developed at 16 (when your darlings become legal to drive 5,000 lb. vehicles down our highways at 65 miles per hour) nor at 18 (when they are entitled to enter the polling booth and choose the leaders of the western world), nor at 21 (when they can legally purchase and consume alcohol in thousands of venues across these United States).

Even though our children mature physically earlier than previous generations, and their hormonal development seems more and more precocious, the human brain is not fully mature until about age 25. You and I both know a few people who had several children before their brains were fully developed.

The synapses in the brain, those magical connections that link one tidbit of information to the next, that organize information between cause and effect, risk and consequences, continue to develop well into the 20s, according to Jay Giedd of the National Institute of Mental Health.

Teen brains blossom with new brain cells and neural connections, something that was formerly thought to happen only in the first 18 months of life. Their "frontal lobes - responsible for 'executive' functions such as self control, judgment, emotional regulation, organization and planning - undergo wholesale renovation", according to a report by Sharon Begley, published recently in Newsweek magazine.

"Teens have the power to determine their own brain development, to determine which connections survive and which don't, [depending on] whether they do art, or music or sports or video games," says Giedd.

Isn't it true that about the age of 25 most young people "get it"? They finally realize that Mark Twain was right: "When I was 17 my father was stupid, but by the time I was 25 my father had learned a lot!" The new research on human brain development may explain why in the mid 20s the consequences of risky behavior, wasted money or a lack of purpose finally register in those precious frontal lobes.

http://www.frankenberggroup.com/resources2.asp

QuoteStudy Shows Marijuana Promotes Neuron Growth:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=253377&rel_no=1

Marijuana May Spur New Brain Cells:
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5921

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects:
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509/version/1

These are animal studies.  Rats.

"Just after this research appeared, Professor Robin Murray of the Institute of Psychiatry of the United Kingdom in an interview with BBC News, questioned whether the anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects seen in the animals would be replicated in humans: "This is a very big leap of faith as they have no data on humans, and the supposed animals' models of anxiety and depression that they use don't have much in common with the human conditions."

So, when animal studies show signs that something is bad for them, it's bad for humans too; but when they show something positive, it's a "big leap of faith"? What about in the 70s when it was "discovered" that cannabis kills your brain, which they tested on monkeys. That was enough to start the Nixon "War on Drugs". And they didn't tell you how they conducted this test. There's a lot too it, but they basically put gas masks on the monkeys and pumped them full of it for ten minutes straight. The monkeys couldn't breath and they died from lack of oxygen. But low and behold, when they opened up the dead monkey's brain, the brain cells were dead before the monkey was. So that "proved" that cannabis killed them. If you die from lack of oxygen, the first thing that dies is your brain. I still urge everyone to watch "The Union" on google videos.

You can't necessarily draw an accurate conclusion about humans from rat studies, that's true.

You have to admit that there is something in the cannibis that is affecting your brain, altering your perceptions, creating an effect.  That is why you use it.  If it did nothing to you, you wouldn't use it.  So, it is, indeed, affecting brain chemistry and processes.  You don't need a study to know that.  It also, as a result, affects behavior.  To pretend it doesn't do these things is just plain silly.  Now put that together with a developing brain and use common sense.  Would you feed this stuff to your baby?

Narcotics and opiates also affect the brain.  These substances have great uses for people who are sick or in pain.  Thank God for them if you need them.  But, to just sit around popping pain killers for the psychogenic effect is folly.

I think we need to protect our children, who are using these drugs in increasingly higher numbers.  Using marijuana in middle school or high school or even college is something that we, as adults, should think carefully about before promoting--especially if it causes brain damage, not to mention lack of motivation, crime, and drug addiction.

I have nothing against the medicinal use of marijuana if it is shown effective for people who are ill.  Nor against the use of marijuana to provide hemp, from which you can make paper, biodegradable plastics, and fuel. 

I'll watch your movie though.  I am very against the minimum mandatory sentences for drug users that takes discretion out of the hands of judges.  This puts a lot of people in jail who do not belong there.

willieH: Hi brother S...  :cloud9:

"pre apology" for the LONG post.  :blush:

Quote from: willieH on November 26, 2009, 07:55:24 AM
Thanks for that answer bro, but it did not really answer my question...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHFor the record, ...what is the definition (within your perception) of the "embodiement of God's character" bro? 

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMBeing Christlike, soberminded, righteous, godly in this present age.  :dontknow:

Thanks for the answer to that question, but you have yet to answer my first question bro... which was:

Quote from: willieHLet me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

Quote from: willieHThis "embodiement" is a pretty big thing... and it only leads back to Him, that which HE sent out.  If marijuana was put here by Him (and it was)... and He did not specify GUIDELINES for its use... then how can we determine MISUSE of it?

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMThe leading of the Holy Spirit. And, by examining ourselves and our usage of it, which of course he guides us in. And anyone can say anything about what the Spirit leads them to do. But it's each person's issue according to their conscious.

With all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

In 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

The Holy Spirit is come to EXALT and ENLARGE upon what CHRIST taught and did --->

John 15:26 -- but when the COMFORTER is come, whom I send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall TESTIFY of ME... [the WORD]

The Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

Quote from: willieHAs I see it, ...except by observing it with common sense, and moderation, there is no MISUSE of it...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMThat's a big exception.

That the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

Quote from: willieHJESUS threw over the tables in the temple... would THAT be part of the "embodiement"?  If so, how?

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMPassion for what is right. It depends on how one is led by the Spirit.

In this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

Quote from: willieHGod created SEX... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it, IS SIN...

God created ALCOHOL... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it IS SIN... see what I mean?

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMBingo, that was my whole point. :thumbsup:

Improper use. And how do we determine what is improper? It's up the individual to examine himself with the guidance of the Spirit to know that.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Sorry to (slightly) disagree brother S, ...but I do not believe "the SPIRIT" is "guiding" in this instance...  God gave us the ability to REASON.  This ability is employed concerning that which is profittable, and that which is unprofittable in areas EXTERNAL of the teachings of HIS WORD... 

The WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHAnything that is within our ability to choose personal involvement, CAN be SINFUL...  but the SILENCE of Scripture concerning use of marijuana, or even Alcohol as "SIN"... is proof enough that it is NOT...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMSo when you ask, "is marijuana use sinful" I say "It can be." However, silence of scripture concerning the use of pot or alcohol is not proof enough for me it is not. That would be an argument from silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence). I would say the improper use of anything, including pot would be sinful even though the written word does not mention pot specifically.

I have already agreed that if one is convicted of SIN on something UNMENTIONED in Scripture, that it is SIN to that one... However, that is NOT a measure which can be legally, and Scripturally IMPOSED upon others...  :dontknow: (i.e -- "misuse")

And because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Because some "intellectual" (@Wikipedia) has given an opinion, you use IT as a measure of what IS or IS NOT correct in arguement.  That is your choice, however...

Can you be cited by the CITY, for SPEEDING where there are NO speed limits set and posted, Seth? (aside from wet or icy conditions, and even then it is up the descretion of the driver as to what speed is SAFE and what is NOT)...

God's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

Quote from: willieHWow bro... There must be behaviors in the Bay area, that are not present in Los Angeles or Spokane!  I smoked pot for 10 solid years in Los Angeles and Spokane --- and a good 15 years (of much lesser use) in Spokane, with countless people on countless occasions, and NEVER ONCE did I ever witness NEGATIVITY arising from anyone using it in proximity to me -- NEVER ONCE!

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMI sure have, and I have been all around CA.

Your experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Quote from: willieHWhat do you mean by "less than sober" bro?  "Sober" has quite a few applicable meanings...  :JCThink:

In what way or ways did it "control" your mind?  :scratchhead:

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMI mean that I smoked it, and then I was stoned and my thoughts became far from God, and that is just me. It controlled my mind in that way to where I did not feel in control of my thoughts.

"Control" of ones thoughts is not to be of ourselves.  We are to be given over in submission to CHRIST, who therein "controls"...

I have had MANY a SPIRITUAL experience while using marijuana.  (You refer to it as "stoned", I do not)...  I can also testify of MANY revelations which have occured during use as well...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMI see... This is understandable... but maybe marijuana was not the culprit.  Don't mean to be sarcastic... but (unfortunately) I too, have had impure thoughts during my lifetime that had nothing to do with marijuana... They were moments that I will be happy to have stricken from the record, but when this occured during the use of marijuana, it was not the marijuana that "caused" the thoughts... nor imposed control of those thoughts...  It was my mind that (in that moment) was not submitted to CHRIST, that "caused" those "impure" thoughts, not the marijuana.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMWell for me, the pot was indeed the culprit.

Or so you presently think and believe... so it is good for you to abstain, and I commend you for it! 

A couple of questions:

(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?
(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

So it won't embarrass you to answer, I have had IMPURE thoughts both before and after using marijuana in my life.  (I have very rarely used it for the last 10 years)

"IMPURE thoughts" are propositions of the flesh, which PAUL noted as continuing in his LIFE experience -- Rom 7 -- whole chapter.

Quote from: willieHAgain, what the individual personally esteems, is an individual concern.  My question in this thread was more IN GENERAL... Such as, ...what the WORD might broadcast as a direction or teaching concerning it...

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMNow I know your question was more in general, but in fairness, you didn't specify. IMHO The Word will let people know individually whether it's fine or not.

I disagree.  The WORD says NOTHING about it, so the WORD does not "let people know"... It is YOU, yourself, which has established for yourself that marijuana is SINFUL, and THAT is what makes it SIN to you.  As Paul noted in Rom 14:14 -- The WORD did not instruct you, one way or the other. :mnah:

Quote from: willieHAs I said in my question above... If I use marijuana, and a wonderful and TRUTHFUL  revelation comes forth from within me, ...is this WRONG in some way, because marijuana was a part of it?  :mshock:

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMI'm really not the judge of that in each individual case. God is your judge on matters like that, not me.  :dontknow:

That still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

QuoteAgreed bro... but aside from that, marijuana and heroin are 2 completely different things -- in 2 completely different categories.  

HEROIN

Heroin can KILL you if you overdose yourself.  
Heroin is PHYSICALLY addictive after the first few uses.
Heroin does NOT come from the ground -- AS IS.  
Heroin must be PROCESSED/manufactured in order to be used.

MARIJUANA

Marijuana cannot KILL you by overdose.
Marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive, even after hundreds of uses.
Marijuana COMES from the ground (and from GOD) -- AS IS
Marijuana needs NO PROCESSING to be used.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMThis is true, that heroin is different than pot. My point there was not to compare the two as similar or the same but to give and example of a gradation of things which can be more powerful than others in bringing someone to slavery. For me, food might be a bigger pull. For others pot might be that way.

You have curbed or controlled "FOOD", but STILL use it, right?  Why can't this approach be applied, with marijuana?

In my many experiences with marijuana, IT did not lead me to try other substances... (in honesty I have tried other substances, though not many) my FLESH prompted me.  It is MAN's opinion (in general), that using one substance "leads them" to another... :rolleye:  The FLESH desires to explore the WORLD, and in that exploration, are often found detrimental things.

Hey... I tried Beer... and also tried wine, then hard liquor.  Even though I "tried" these, I do not use wine or hard liquor, but I do still have a beer...  :dontknow:  Did beer lead me?  NO way.  Curiosity of other things in the World, "led me"...

I tried riding a tricycle as a kid, then went to bikes... but never got strung out on  motorcycles... same-same if you ask me.

Quote from: willieHI meant by "SILENCE", that GOD chose not to mention Marijuana in the written WORD, neither did He note MISUSE of it, nor did He note any directive concerning it... i.e. --> "silence".  If NOTHING is said... then NOTHING is said.

Quote from: Seth on November 26, 2009, 08:24:22 AMYes I agree, in the written word it is silent. However, the living Word is given for guidance in our daily lives, who is not silent. That was my point.

The "Living WORD"?  Is not the WORD as WRITTEN, the "LIVING WORD"?

You are welcome to your observations, and I condemn you not for them... however...

If what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

willieH: Hi sister M... :hithere:

Thanks for your reply...  :grin:

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AM
Marijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.  It can have a lot of bad side effects.  In particular, the brains of children are growing and developing until 25 years of age, and it can negatively impact the developing brain by changing the brain chemistry and structural integrity of the brain which can result in behavior problems, mental problems,  addiction, and other problems for the individual and society.

What a crock!  Just because some "study" somewhere noted this, it is therefore to be believed?  Politicians love this mindset!

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMMarijuana side effects come from smoking or consuming the drug and marijuana side effects influence the mind and body of the user. Marijuana side effects can be as seemingly innocent as an increased appetite to as life threatening as lung cancer. Increased likelihood for accidents is also one of the marijuana side effects. Studies show that 6 to 11 percent of fatal accidents are contributed to by marijuana side effects. Other external marijuana side effects include legal problems, work and financial problems and troubles at home.

Marijuana is most often smoked but can be eaten or steeped in tea to drink. Most over-doses occur actually when the drug is eaten because it is easier to consume a large dose all at once. Marijuana side effects from an overdose include toxic psychosis including hallucinations, delusions and a loss of self-identification. When smoked, marijuana is rolled up into a cigarette called a joint or smoked in a pipe or water pipe called a bong. Marijuana has many street names like pot, hash, chronic and there are many paraphernalia available to smoke it.

I have both eaten and smoked it as a teen, up to and PAST 25.  And yet, here I am... 64, debating logically and intelligently with others here...

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMOver 11 million people smoked marijuana last month. Many may not have severe marijuana side effects from taking the drug but many people will. Marijuana side effects include physical problems like breathing difficulties and deteriorating physical abilities. Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do. The marijuana side effects from this extra exertion on the body include a higher risk for lung cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

Marijuana side effects also wreak havoc on the brain when the drug is used habitually. The natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use. Depression often occurs with marijuana usage, which feeds into the cycle of more drug use to treat the pain created by drug use. This cycle of addiction is very powerful and users soon find that they cannot stop using the drug even if they want to.

More hearsay and opinion... There is NO ADDICTION to marijuana.  We as humans are creatures of HABIT... Some like to do this, others that... that we habitually do one thing or another does NOT equate to ADDICTION.

ad·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈdik-shən, a-\
Function: noun
Date: 1599
1 : the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2 : compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

This definition in Merriam-Webster, is probably a bit dated... as there are noted -- "SEX ADDICTS" and "SUGAR ADDICTS" and others which do NOT produce "WITHDRAWAL"...

:omg: I would think that most here OPEN and READ their Bibles HABITUALLY! -- EVERY DAY!  Shall we consider ourselves as ADDICTED to the Bible?  :pointlaugh:

This word (addiction) is purposely MISUSED by Governmental agencies to their benefit.  ADDICTION is the continuing indulgence in something which is HARMFUL... and if they LIE enough, speaking their fallacies to the uniformed public, then the LIE becomes accepted as the "truth" and is believed and carelessly parroted to others without investigation! 

THIS is what is wrong in Chrisitianity!  The "churches" and TV evangelists are selling their impure version of the "gospel", based upon FEAR... and so the MANY shall face CHRIST -- thinking they are in, and have been preaching the TRUTH -- and all along, they have peddled to the WORLD that God so LOVED... iniquity -- Matt 7:22-23

Simply because they did NOT bother to research the words of others (as are noted in this post), and resultingly they, themselves were found immersed in FALLACY... and even preaching it to others!

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMMarijuana addiction is a progressive disease and marijuana side effects include withdrawal and obsessive thought with the drug when it is not made available.

More cr_p... :mnah:

Hmmm... I smoked marijuana continuously for YEARS, and then QUIT -- PERIOD!  NO "withdrawal" , NO addiction, NO disease, NO "obsessive thoughts"... Please!  :thumbdown:

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMAddiction is identified as a compulsive, uncontrollable craving for the drug even with pending negative consequences. Often users will attempt to stop smoking marijuana for an important event such as a job interview or court hearing and find themselves using very close or just before the event. This act goes beyond a flexing of willpower. This describes being enveloped by a disease that has taken control and needs to be treated.

Please! -- :laughing7: -- the uninformed, INFORMING the uninformed!  :wacko2: :blahgreen:  :dunno: :blah:

Quote from: Molly on November 26, 2009, 10:28:28 AMhttp://www.marijuana-addiction.net/marijuana-side-effects.htm

No offense sister Molly, but any ATHEIST can post a computer link which spouts and support themselves and their viewpoint.  Because they have a website with these LIES, does not prove a thing...

If you have NOT experienced marijuana... then you are relying on hearsay from one person or another...

:Peace:

willieH: Hi brother S...

A bit of retracing:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 07:00:50 PM
Singing can edify God sure. All the others are pretty neutral. I didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got? This thread is about Marijuana smoking.

Actually USE of marijuana is the subject.  Marijuana can be eaten, or tea made to be drank, as well...

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 07:00:50 PMPot is an illegal mind altering drug.

Illegal in some places, not in others.  :dontknow:  Because MEN have deemed something as ILLEGAL, does not mean that it should be ILLEGAL.

Also, in the USA, one can LEGALLY use marijuana by PERSCRIPTION.  It is USEFUL and helpful in pain management and treatment of certain diseases...

As far as "MIND ALTERING"... that is an opinion.  I see it as an ENHANCEMENT.  I can tell you for sure, as a pro musician, that playing and singing within its use, produces magnificent sounds and performances.  Well above normal.  :thumbsup:

As to whether or not it is a drug... again, opinion.  It is a herb/weed created by God.  And has an inherent chemistry, as do all plants.

In naming them GOOD --- God gave us all the herbs (Gen 1)... marijuana is among them. :nod:

Quote from: Seth on November 25, 2009, 07:00:50 PMSo if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

As has already been said... it is a matter of opinion, as to whether or not edification of God takes place in a given experience with marijuana.  I have on numerous occasions experienced edification of GOD, and conveyed it to others as well while using marijuana... Not to mention quite a few, very SPIRITUAL song creations... which served to edify Him.

(http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/356/356068gdun4rwxsj.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
  It's only a matter...
(http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1295/1295840gexcqp495i.jpg) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
    ... of taxation?

"A government's practice of collecting money from citizens and businesses within its domain to support its operations."

I'm glad Molly was/is open minded enough to watch The Union. I don't see how she can stand by her argument after watching it. (I recommend it for Seth too.) Now, as for Seth, I'm going to say a few things that I hope he won't get mad at. From what I understand, he thinks the weed made him think of impure thoughts, or something like that. With all due respect, it can't "make" you do anything you already don't want to do. I find that some people (Mostly Baptists.) like to blame a substance for a problem they have, rather then themselves. I.E. "It's that bottle of alcohol that's evil, not me." Now, I don't think Seth believes that, and if he thinks that God doesn't want him to smoke, more power to him.  :thumbsup:

If giving ourselves over to another authority or influence wasn't an issue with substances, I don't believe there would be such explicit instructions in the scriptures about not being drunk with wine.  Instead, we are to be filled with the Spirit.

I can't judge anyone else though, I have my hands full examining my own heart.  

9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."
...is the man who gains riches by unjust means.
When his life is half gone, they will desert him, and in the end he will prove to be a fool.

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water.
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise.

James.

Quote

Quote from: willieHLet me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

In that case, I would not be inclined to think it sinful generally speaking and if it is legal, like wine.

QuoteWith all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

In the case of the written word not calling out a specific thing as a sin, the LIVING WORD is the guiding factor, at least for me.

QuoteIn 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

There is nothing that the Living Spirit would do to contradict the written word, however, in the case of silence in the Word regarding what can affect the conscious, the Living God is the guide unto righteousness however he leads each man. IMHO

QuoteThe Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

The Spirit also provides salvation from sin teaching us to deny ungodliness through chastisement in this present age. Now the question becomes "what is ungodly?" That is what the Spirit will enlighten into each man.

QuoteThat the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

But it is an exception that you noted, which I believe was a pretty significant exception and was really the whole point of my statement.

QuoteIn this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

QuoteThe WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

I don't believe it is a dilemma. I believe God does guide in daily life choices. That just may be a point in which we disagree.

QuoteAnd because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Misuse would be anything that leads away from: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 1:12 and other many like scriptures as that.

QuoteBecause some "intellectual" (@Wikipedia) has given an opinion, you use IT as a measure of what IS or IS NOT correct in arguement.

No.  :dontknow:

QuoteGod's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

However, there is something called "the Law of Liberty" and that which brings one into slavery, whether the word "marijuana" (and I have indeed known people in slavery to it) is specifically mentioned falls into the category of being contrary to that liberty.

QuoteYour experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Looks like it.  :dontknow:

Quote(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?

Yes. However pot use made it more difficult to control my thoughts and be soberminded, and therefore became a part of the machine within me that lusted against things of the Spirit.

Quote(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

Yes I have, but again, a factor in making it difficult to control my thoughts has been removed.

QuoteThat still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

I think i answered above.

QuoteIf what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

Very well, but I believe the Spirit does lead in daily life against things that cause people to think and act contrary to the standard of conduct taught in the scripture.  :dontknow:

Peace bro. Love you.  :HeartThrob:





[/quote]

QuoteIllegal in some places, not in others.  :dontknow:  Because MEN have deemed something as ILLEGAL, does not mean that it should be ILLEGAL.

Just because we think something shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean we shouldn't be obedient and compliant with those laws. If you believe smoking pot is the Lord's bidding than do it even if it is illegal. However, I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God. When the laws of the land do not conflict with God's commandments to us, we should obey those laws.

QuoteAlso, in the USA, one can LEGALLY use marijuana by PERSCRIPTION.  It is USEFUL and helpful in pain management and treatment of certain diseases...

Yup, duly noted.

QuoteAs to whether or not it is a drug... again, opinion.  It is a herb/weed created by God.  And has an inherent chemistry, as do all plants.

Technically speaking it is a drug. That doesn't make it bad. So is aspirin.

willieH: Hi James...  :happy3:

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:05:02 AM
If giving ourselves over to another authority or influence wasn't an issue with substances, I don't believe there would be such explicit instructions in the scriptures about not being drunk with wine.  Instead, we are to be filled with the Spirit.

Drinking wine or strong drink IN EXCESS is the explicit instruction of the Scriptures... and this would also apply to smoking or eating marijuana.  One can excessively use this substance... and be treading upon instruction of Scripture which in several things, notes that EXCESSIVE use, is the problem...

QuoteI can't judge anyone else though, I have my hands full examining my own heart.

Well said.  Anyone who observes the WORD, will find it SILENT concerning marijuana. Therefore it becomes an individual issue, which as I said before... must not be imposed on others, just as you have just noted.  :thumbsup: 

Quote9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

We shall reap what we sow brother.  No one is debating this issue.  But the issue of using marijuana is not a "deed" which is reckoned by the WORD as "deserving" anything one way or the other.

:Peace:

so what are the fruits from using MJ vs alcohol and other drugs?
does it make you hit your wife...write someone off on the roads...get all aggressive and violent?

I say damn those evil aggressive murderous insidious rastafarians...
send them to Afghanistan...they'll show us how to win a war!

willieH: Hi brother Seth...  :cloud9:

Quote

Quote from: willieHLet me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMIn that case, I would not be inclined to think it sinful generally speaking and if it is legal, like wine.

This STILL does not answer the question... :mnah:  I did not ask you if marijuana was "sinful" in general, nor about legalities...

I asked you... that if an ANNOINTED message comes forth and marijuana is involved... what do have to say of this?  :dontknow:

Does this answer mean that I can write ANNOINTED message or song, or edify God and use marijuana while doing this, ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?  :mshock:

This would mean that GOD is confined to ANNOINTING on the [PHYSICAL] geographical location, and is further confined to the Administration of MANS LAW... not His...

If that is what you mean by this answer, I ain't BUYIN' it... GOD is not dictated to by men... His ANNOINTED blessings are not according to EARTHLY position or wealth or proximities!

He blesses us according to HIS WILL, when HE DECIDES to bless us, and IN HIS TIME -- ANNOINTING is shed upon us to fill our NEED and/or necessary for our growth IN HIM.

Quote from: willieHWith all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMIn the case of the written word not calling out a specific thing as a sin, the LIVING WORD is the guiding factor, at least for me.

No offense bro, but this is an evasive answer as well...

Please note what YOU consider to be the -- "LIVING WORD", and (if NOT the BIBLE) --  WHERE is this "WORD" found?  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: willieHIn 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

QuoteThere is nothing that the Living Spirit would do to contradict the written word, however, in the case of silence in the Word regarding what can affect the conscious, the Living God is the guide unto righteousness however he leads each man. IMHO

It appears you rely upon SPIRITUAL revelation, which is OUTSIDE the WRITTEN WORD...

That is your choice.  To me, this is either the practice of ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the WRITTEN WORD...

As always, it is not my intention to change or convince you in any way.  Your life and the conduct within it, is an issue between you and God.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieHThe Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMThe Spirit also provides salvation from sin teaching us to deny ungodliness through chastisement in this present age. Now the question becomes "what is ungodly?" That is what the Spirit will enlighten into each man.

And this is done by the REVELATION which is availed in the WRITTEN WORD.  If "revelation" is found OUTSIDE the WORD, then it is in question.  For we can "play" with this or that, and then say that GOD revealed something which was not founded in what we KNOW is His WORD.  This is where CULT RELIGION is born.  A messenger says he/she has revelation... and does not found this revelation in the WORD of YHVH...

Quote from: willieHThat the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMBut it is an exception that you noted, which I believe was a pretty significant exception and was really the whole point of my statement.

The "exception" bro... is the conscience.  If you esteem marijuana use to be sinful, then it is sinful to YOU.  And this measure is personal.  Not to be imposed upon another. -- Rom 14:14

Stay where you are concerning this brother Seth... you have much life ahead of you to learn... and in that life, you will find that as you step into your years... there shall be "understandings" which you now hold, which you shall abandon.  Life is a process... and you are in the youth of your process.  You have yet to step upon the stones of time that I have already traversed.

That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong.  What it means is that both of us must be seeking REVELATION from God IN HIS WORD, instead of depending upon ourselves, and our "feelings"

Peter was so instructed in -- Acts 10 -- to abandon what he had held most of his life, for there was REVELATION that was given him TO abandon...  :dontknow:  PAUL -- Acts 9 -- experienced the same as he stepped upon the stones of time... and you and I are no different.  For we both seek to KNOW God... and to KNOW what we presently DO NOT KNOW.

Quote from: willieHIn this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMAs I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

The "SPIRIT" is much more than a "deliverer" brother.  The SPIRIT of YHVH is ALL encompassing, and about WORKING ALL THINGS, part of which is "deliverance". 

Quote from: willieHThe WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMI don't believe it is a dilemma. I believe God does guide in daily life choices. That just may be a point in which we disagree.

Though sovereignty is not allowed to be discussed at TM... I must say (and you are welcome to disagree) each and ALL of our "choices" are foreordained, and DECLARED...  We are "choosing" according to that DECLARATION... God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

Our "choosing" does not move God... God moves our choices.  The POTTER dictates the molding of the clay... the clay is resistant by nature... but must submit to the will and timing of the POTTER, as well as becoming the END PRODUCT of HIS making, not of oneself.  Again... there are things you are yet to find, in your future bro...  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieHAnd because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMMisuse would be anything that leads away from: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 1:12 and other many like scriptures as that.

There is no basis for this.  I repeat my question which you have evaded several times... When EDIFICATION and SPIRITUAL REVELATION is found in a message which is delivered by one using marijuana... shall you disregard that because marijuana was in use?

Quote from: willieHGod's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMHowever, there is something called "the Law of Liberty" and that which brings one into slavery, whether the word "marijuana" (and I have indeed known people in slavery to it) is specifically mentioned falls into the category of being contrary to that liberty.

Did you really say this, Seth?  :bigGrin:

The LAW of LIBERTY is the LAW of GOD... pretty plainly noted in James.  That "law" does not discuss marijuana. 

It is your Unscriptural opinion that MARIJUANA is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  Just as you might argue that ALCOHOL is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  And therefore bunch these 2 together and come up with SIN.

It is the UNSUBMITTED and mischoosing, misled, mind and heart that ENSLAVES, not the substances of marijuana and alcohol.  For the HEART by nature is DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9

The HEART which is submitted to CHRIST is in a state of FREEDOM... where ANNOINTING is found...

As I said, I have composed several tunes which are definitely ANNOINTED... and have blessed many hearts... Filled with the LOVE of God, Peace, and the truth of the Gospel... and marijuana was used during the composition, and/or recording of them.

Quote from: willieHYour experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMLooks like it.  :dontknow:

Yep! :nod:

Quote from: willieH(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMYes. However pot use made it more difficult to control my thoughts and be soberminded, and therefore became a part of the machine within me that lusted against things of the Spirit.

I do not argue against your testimony Seth.  I believe you when you say that marijuana contributes to this dilemma.  However, the fact that you had this same thing (impure thinking) PRIOR or ASIDE from marijuana use, exposes that as a "SOBER" problem as well... 

Quote from: willieH(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMYes I have, but again, a factor in making it difficult to control my thoughts has been removed.

Thanks for your honesty... this further cements that marijuana is not the "cause" for both before and after use,  (aside from marijuana) you have had this same problem occur...  Learn about yourself bro... there is no shame in learning.

You cannot blame marijuana for IMPURE thinking, for its experience has occured aside from use.  The IMPURE thinking, is prompting from the FLESH, whether or not marijuana is used.

Quote from: willieHThat still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMI think i answered above.

No.  You did not... and still haven't. 

Quote from: willieHIf what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

QuoteVery well, but I believe the Spirit does lead in daily life against things that cause people to think and act contrary to the standard of conduct taught in the scripture.  :dontknow:

Yes... but that "leading" is the TESTIMONY found IN the Scripture... not in the MIND/heart of the individual.

The SPIRIT leads and exalts the WORD, testifying of IT... not introducing things outside of it.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMPeace bro. Love you.  :HeartThrob:

You ARE and always WILL BE, my dear friend.  Met you once... and recall vividly, your Love, knowledge of, and appreciation for God!  :friendstu:

Please know that I only mean to help those who are reading, to abandon the Babylonian chains placed about them.  Some of which are the myths which deduce the substances of ALCOHOL and MARIJUANA -- as SINFUL.

They are BOTH part of the creation of God, and the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... which is GOOD -- and -- EVIL.

I do NOT support the "party" aspect concerning marijuana or alcohol... only social, moderate and disciplined use.  If one is submitted to God and His WORD... then the uses of these, shall remain in moderation if used at all...

Where the WORD is silent... we must not EMBELLISH with our opinions and or "convictions". 

It is perfectly fine to find individual conviction for any given thing...

EXAMPLE -- I eat steak, but hold nothing against a VEGAN for abstaining, and respect his right to do so... That "right" however is NOT a license to JUDGE me for doing the opposite that he chooses to do.  Nor does that "judgment" find any basis in the Scriptures...  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi noname...  :cloud9:

Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:41:23 AM
so what are the fruits from using MJ vs alcohol and other drugs?

"Other drugs" are not under discussion here bro...  It is a FACT that WINE is a digestive aid... As far as marijuana goes...  It is only known as a DRUG by the insistence of GOVERNMENT...

Marijuana is a plant which GOD created AS it naturally -- IS! ...and is an edible, drinkable herb aside from smoking it.  What is the "fruit" of OREGANO?  Or what is the "fruit" of CINNAMON?  Or what is the "fruit" or PARSLEY?

These spices/herbs are used in flavoring foods, and making food appealing to the eye.  That's about it.  So, shall we abstain from their use because this is the extent of their use?  :dontknow:

Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:41:23 AMdoes it make you hit your wife...write someone off on the roads...get all aggressive and violent?

I have never witnessed such behavior in marijuana users... and as far as alcohol goes... wife abuse is prevalent by men, aside from alcohol use as well...

An abusive person does not require the use of a substance in order to generate abuse, and often does not.

Just because there are cases where alcohol is involved, does not mean the alcohol caused this, especially if the alcohol were used in moderation.  :dontknow:

Marijuana, nor alcohol "makes" a man abuse his wife...  This misbehavior is born of the HEART, not of a plant or a drink.  A glass of wine never MADE anyone DO anything.  :mnah:

Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 09:41:23 AMI say damn those evil aggressive murderous insidious rastafarians...
send them to Afghanistan...they'll show us how to win a war!

:mshock: hmmm... sounds like pretty aggressive talk brother... not sure what you mean by it... :dunno:

hey WillieH,
excuse my twisted sense of humour...I was saying these things tongue in cheek :winkgrin:
I've never seen marijuana users get up to the destructive things some alcohol users get into...that's what i was trying to show...not that i'm saying all alcohol users do get violent, but many do...and alcohol is like the fuse that starts the fire...and the thing is alcohol is legal...that's why i was on about the fruits...
if you look at statistics how many road accidents are caused by alcohol abuse, domestic violence etc etc
you do not get these things type of things with mellowed out mj smokers

with regards to rastafarians, i was truying to point out they they would never hurt a fly when stoned or not...but many "straight" people would not flinch when killing another human being

here in africa mj has been used for centuries as medicine, stress relievant, social interaction etc and has never been seen as a drug in the sense that heroin would be, so no convincing necessary here my friend :thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on November 27, 2009, 10:43:38 AM
This STILL does not answer the question... :mnah:  I did not ask you if marijuana was "sinful" in general, nor about legalities...

I asked you... that if an ANNOINTED message comes forth and marijuana is involved... what do have to say of this?  :dontknow:

Does this answer mean that I can write ANNOINTED message or song, or edify God and use marijuana while doing this, ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?  :mshock:

Sorry, I didn't realize your question was concerning legality, just whether I thought use of pot was sinful in that specific case regardless of legality. So, I thought I was answering that question. You can write an annointed song and edify God without using pot since God is not confined to pot use to enable a person to do that. That being the case, then I would say yes, to your question. The obvious exception would be if someone says that the status of pot as an illegal substance hinders their obedience to God. In that case however, one would be admitting that edification, spiritual revelation and obedience to God is DEPENDANT on physical substances rather than simply "worshipping in spirit and in truth." If Spirit and truth are not sufficient enough to edify God and gain spiritual revelation to the full maximum without pot use for a person, then I am sure the person could justify breaking the law to make those spiritual gains.

QuoteThis would mean that GOD is confined to ANNOINTING on the [PHYSICAL] geographical location, and is further confined to the Administration of MANS LAW... not His...

Well, since God is not confined to pot use to enable his anointing, then you obeying the laws to not use it would not confine him in any way. Unless one were to think God needs a person to smoke something to let his anointing loose. That in itself would be confining.

QuoteHe blesses us according to HIS WILL, when HE DECIDES to bless us, and IN HIS TIME -- ANNOINTING is shed upon us to fill our NEED and/or necessary for our growth IN HIM.

Agreed.  :thumbsup:

QuoteNo offense bro, but this is an evasive answer as well...  Please note what YOU consider to be the -- "LIVING WORD", and (if NOT the BIBLE) --  WHERE is this "WORD" found?  :Chinscratch:

Jesus Christ. And that Word is found in his temple which is his people.

QuoteIt appears you rely upon SPIRITUAL revelation, which is OUTSIDE the WRITTEN WORD...

That is your choice.  To me, this is either the practice of ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the WRITTEN WORD...

As always, it is not my intention to change or convince you in any way.  Your life and the conduct within it, is an issue between you and God.  :HeartThrob:

Like I said, we can agree to disagree, however I am not talking about having revelation outside the written word. If the written word does not call out marijuana SPECIFICALLY, the Holy Spirit leads me to know that pot use in MY case causes a lack of sobriety that He means me to have, by which it becomes sinful behavior FOR ME (speaking individually). And such leading against behaviors which causes a lack of sober living IN ME is of course hardly a new revelation contrary to the written word.

QuoteAnd this is done by the REVELATION which is availed in the WRITTEN WORD.  If "revelation" is found OUTSIDE the WORD, then it is in question.  For we can "play" with this or that, and then say that GOD revealed something which was not founded in what we KNOW is His WORD.  This is where CULT RELIGION is born.  A messenger says he/she has revelation... and does not found this revelation in the WORD of YHVH...

The Spirit leading one in righteousness is NOT contrary to the written Word. And, as I have noted, I did not make a general rule FOR YOU. Only that if any BEHAVIOR causes one to act AGAINST the conduct of righteousness underlined in the written word and moved upon by the Spirit, then it becomes sinful behavior.

QuoteThe "exception" bro... is the conscience.  If you esteem marijuana use to be sinful, then it is sinful to YOU.  And this measure is personal.  Not to be imposed upon another. -- Rom 14:14

And the reason I esteem pot use to be sinful TO ME is because the Spirit guides me to know that it was a causal factor FOR ME in not living soberly according to the standard of righteousness that the written word commands and that the Spirit guides in fulfilling.  

QuoteStay where you are concerning this brother Seth... you have much life ahead of you to learn... and in that life, you will find that as you step into your years... there shall be "understandings" which you now hold, which you shall abandon.  Life is a process... and you are in the youth of your process.  You have yet to step upon the stones of time that I have already traversed.

That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong.  What it means is that both of us must be seeking REVELATION from God IN HIS WORD, instead of depending upon ourselves, and our "feelings"

The written word is much like the Constitution. It is the LETTER. Yet there is a judge who interprets the words, and that judge is not me but "Christ in me the hope of glory."

QuoteThe "SPIRIT" is much more than a "deliverer" brother.  The SPIRIT of YHVH is ALL encompassing, and about WORKING ALL THINGS, part of which is "deliverance".  

Brother, i didn't say that the spirit is ONLY a deliverer.

QuoteThough sovereignty is not allowed to be discussed at TM... I must say (and you are welcome to disagree) each and ALL of our "choices" are foreordained, and DECLARED...  We are "choosing" according to that DECLARATION... God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

Our "choosing" does not move God... God moves our choices.  The POTTER dictates the molding of the clay... the clay is resistant by nature... but must submit to the will and timing of the POTTER, as well as becoming the END PRODUCT of HIS making, not of oneself.  Again... there are things you are yet to find, in your future bro...  :happygrin:

I totally agree.

Quote
There is no basis for this.  I repeat my question which you have evaded several times... When EDIFICATION and SPIRITUAL REVELATION is found in a message which is delivered by one using marijuana... shall you disregard that because marijuana was in use?

Brother, you asked me how I would determine misuse. I just gave you the answer. The question you asked just NOW, I see as a different question, not regarding what my standard of misuse is but whether I would disregard edification if pot were in use at the time. I would not disregard edification and spiritual revelation just because someone is using pot while doing it, and neither would I credit pot as needful for that.

QuoteDid you really say this, Seth?  :bigGrin:

The LAW of LIBERTY is the LAW of GOD... pretty plainly noted in James.  That "law" does not discuss marijuana.  

It is your Unscriptural opinion that MARIJUANA is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  Just as you might argue that ALCOHOL is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  And therefore bunch these 2 together and come up with SIN.

The law of liberty discusses "liberty" and behavior (in this case use of pot for ME in MY case) which can BECOME an enslaving entity, is behavior that works against that liberty.

QuoteIt is the UNSUBMITTED and mischoosing, misled, mind and heart that ENSLAVES, not the substances of marijuana and alcohol.  For the HEART by nature is DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9

Quote

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMLooks like it.  :dontknow:

Yep! :nod:

Everyone has different experiences I suppose.

QuoteI do not argue against your testimony Seth.  I believe you when you say that marijuana contributes to this dilemma.  However, the fact that you had this same thing (impure thinking) PRIOR or ASIDE from marijuana use, exposes that as a "SOBER" problem as well...  

Are you talking about the ROOT problem. Yet, the branches of a tree are just as much part of the tree as the root, just as physical chains can be an entrapment as the person who tied the person down. I agree bro, pot is not the ROOT problem, but a tree is more than its root. I am saying that for me pot was a negative influence making my mind leading to a lack of sobriety. The slave owner is the carnal mind, and the chains are the substances ranging from eating food to consuming alcohol to smoking pot in each individual case whether legal or illegal. Those actions are not sinful if they do not cause slavery to ungodliness, but they are sinful actions if they do.

QuoteThanks for your honesty... this further cements that marijuana is not the "cause" for both before and after use,  (aside from marijuana) you have had this same problem occur...  Learn about yourself bro... there is no shame in learning.

You cannot blame marijuana for IMPURE thinking, for its experience has occured aside from use.  The IMPURE thinking, is prompting from the FLESH, whether or not marijuana is used.

And pot and other substances work in the flesh to CAUSE impure thoughts. A causal factor does not indicate the root issue, nor was it my intention to suggest it was.

 :cloud9: God spoke an anointed message out of a donkey too, but I'm pretty sure He didn't want us to consume their food (weeds) so that He could use us that way, too, LOL......

The fact that He used you under the anointing in that state of mind is not an indication of His acceptance of it, but rather of His grace and the fact that the gifts of God are given without repentance.

Nor does He want us to send up any offering made by smoke unless it's our flesh on the altar, which releases our spirit to rise/ascend, in which case then it's a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord.

And as in all states, He loves you and so do I........Blessings.... :girlheart:

I see it this way.
There is a set of laws. Breaking them is sin.
All other things are not sin. That includes smoking weed and feeding birds.
But if smoking weed or feeding birds makes you do sinful things then stop doing it.
And that varies from person to person.

Of course if one of the laws for example forbids smoking then smoking weed/anything is a sin.
The same applies to the alchol thread.

:2c:

Exodus 30:9
Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.


Could this apply?

Not unless you present the joint as an offer to God.

Plus there are no offerings anymore because Jesus was the perfect everlasting offer that doesn't have constantly be renewed like the offer mentioned in that verse.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 27, 2009, 06:51:23 PM
:cloud9: God spoke an anointed message out of a donkey too, but I'm pretty sure He didn't want us to consume their food (weeds) so that He could use us that way, too, LOL......

The fact that He used you under the anointing in that state of mind is not an indication of His acceptance of it, but rather of His grace and the fact that the gifts of God are given without repentance.

Nor does He want us to send up any offering made by smoke unless it's our flesh on the altar, which releases our spirit to rise/ascend, in which case then it's a sweet smelling savor unto the Lord.

And as in all states, He loves you and so do I........Blessings.... :girlheart:

Very good thoughts to consider.  I'm personally having a very hard time picturing the Pure, Holy Spirit operating through a joint.  :scratchhead:

WW said;  "Of course if one of the laws for example forbids smoking then smoking weed/anything is a sin.
The same applies to the alchol thread."

Yep, we still have the "obey those in authority, obey the law of the land" to deal with - in MANY things, don't we?  Confession/example.  God's really been dealing with me lately about breaking the speed (driving) limit.  I'm thinking He's cleaning me up a little bit more.  Anyway, sometimes I get so sick of what our government is doing with our tax money, sometimes I wonder if there's any way I could "hold some back"  :mblush:.  Then I realize that any way that's not legal is sin, because it's in direct disobedience to the authority/law scriptures above.  If a person wants to TOTALLY base things on the written Word, then it seems to me there it is.

Our whole body is to be a living sacrifice.  Not saying I'm good at it, I'm saying that's what we're told to do...to press toward.  Personally I got a ways to go.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
Our whole body is to be a living sacrifice.  Not saying I'm good at it, I'm saying that's what we're told to do...to press toward.  Personally I got a ways to go.

Right.  So we might defile the temple of God with many things, lust for money, unmarried sex, adultery, ingestion of drugs or alcohol, --isn't this what sin is all about?  What Cardinal said about idols.  Not that we are bad people doing something bad, necessarily, but that we are defiling the temple of the living God?

I think so, and that's not without consequences.  I experience them. God's a healing, loving Father, but sometimes we do carry a limp with us.  

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:26:43 PMWW said;  "Of course if one of the laws for example forbids smoking then smoking weed/anything is a sin.
The same applies to the alchol thread."

Yep, we still have the "obey those in authority, obey the law of the land" to deal with - in MANY things, don't we?

I think we will keep running in circles this way. Such view require sevearl seperate answers.

a] Did God forbid it?
b] Does it lead us to sin? => For example the joint is not a sin but if you start killing when you smoke... stop smoking.
c] Is it forbidden in the country where you live? If yes does God care?

I think Willie is looking for an answer to question "a"

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:34:10 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
Our whole body is to be a living sacrifice.  Not saying I'm good at it, I'm saying that's what we're told to do...to press toward.  Personally I got a ways to go.

Right.  So we might defile the temple of God with many things, lust for money, unmarried sex, adultery, ingestion of drugs or alcohol, --isn't this what sin is all about?

Well Molly you can't answer the question that way  :winkgrin:
You have to show a verse that shows me Jesus defiled His temple when He drank wine....

Jesus was accused of being a wine bibber (abuser [drunkard]), but he didn't...it was an untrue accusation. 

As far as going in circles?  You may be right about that.  I actually thought I was done with this thread.  We can all at least temporarily justify (rationalize) our behavior.  It comes down to either the explicit scriptures, and/or the Holy Spirit leading and convicting inside of each individual.  I can be in total denial of something, trying to justify my sins (to my shame, I have done so), refusing to look at the evidence because it threatens me - what I want or feel a need to do - but it will always come down to what do the scriptures and the Holy Spirit say inside of me.  Either now, or later, I will be obedient.  What happens in the meantime?

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:46:36 PM
Jesus was accused of being a wine bibber (abuser [drunkard]), but he didn't...it was an untrue accusation. 

As far as going in circles?  You may be right about that.  I actually thought I was done with this thread.  We can all at least temporarily justify (rationalize) our behavior.  It comes down to either the explicit scriptures, and/or the Holy Spirit leading and convicting inside of each individual.  I can be in total denial of something, trying to justify my sins (to my shame, I have done so), refusing to look at the evidence because it threatens me - what I want or feel a need to do - but it will always come down to what do the scriptures and the Holy Spirit say inside of me.  Either now, or later, I will be obedient.  What happens in the meantime?

Amen!  :thumbsup:

Also, I think probably plenty of information has been presented on all sides of this argument for one to make up their mind one way or the other - i.e., sin or not sin, why or why not, etc.  At some point, at the end of the day, it's between that individual and God.  Someone can give me a load of truth, even 3 or 4 times and in 3 or 4 different ways.  If I'm open and honest, I'll receive it and it will help change my life for the better.  If I'm being stubborn and/or in denial, I will reject it and continue to rationalize my behavior.  What else can really be said about this topic?  Maybe somebody's got something new.   :dontknow:

(thanks seth, back at'cha)  

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 07:40:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:34:10 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
Our whole body is to be a living sacrifice.  Not saying I'm good at it, I'm saying that's what we're told to do...to press toward.  Personally I got a ways to go.

Right.  So we might defile the temple of God with many things, lust for money, unmarried sex, adultery, ingestion of drugs or alcohol, --isn't this what sin is all about?

Well Molly you can't answer the question that way  :winkgrin:
You have to show a verse that shows me Jesus defiled His temple when He drank wine....

Obviously, he didn't.  But they accused him of being a glutton and a drunkard.

19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

--Mat 11



16"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,
17"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
  we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'

18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

--Mat 11

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:46:36 PMJesus was accused of being a wine bibber (abuser [drunkard]), but he didn't...it was an untrue accusation.

For me the simple fact that Jesus drank wine is proof that alcohol is not forbidden. Of course that doesn't clearly show being drunk is or isn't forbidden.

QuoteAs far as going in circles?  You may be right about that.  I actually thought I was done with this thread.  We can all at least temporarily justify (rationalize) our behavior.  It comes down to either the explicit scriptures, and/or the Holy Spirit leading and convicting inside of each individual.

I think it's good for all involved that the 3 questions are answered seperately. Backed up with some verses.
Personally I see no harm in alcohol/weed as explained a few posts back.
But I'm less conviced about using it in a country where it's forbidden because of this verse:
Mark 12:17  And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Is the anti drugs policy of the USA something "rendered to Caesar Obama"?
Ofcourse we don't render things to Ceasar what are against God's laws.

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:56:12 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 07:40:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:34:10 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:29:23 PM
Our whole body is to be a living sacrifice.  Not saying I'm good at it, I'm saying that's what we're told to do...to press toward.  Personally I got a ways to go.

Right.  So we might defile the temple of God with many things, lust for money, unmarried sex, adultery, ingestion of drugs or alcohol, --isn't this what sin is all about?

Well Molly you can't answer the question that way  :winkgrin:
You have to show a verse that shows me Jesus defiled His temple when He drank wine....

Obviously, he didn't.  But they accused him of being a glutton and a drunkard.

So we agree that drinking alcohol without getting drunk is not a sin?

Quote from: wwFor me the simple fact that Jesus drank wine if proof that alcohol is not forbidden. Of course that doesn't clearly show being drunk is or isn't forbidden.

We see God railing against his drunken priests.  To whom will he explain his message if his priests are all a bunch of drunks?  So, I'd say there is a line that is crossed.  Of course, they can also be drunk with power, or any other foul thing.



These also reel with wine
  and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
  they are swallowed by wine,
  they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
  they stumble in giving judgment.
8For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
  with no space left.

9 "To whom will he teach knowledge,
  and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
  those taken from the breast?
--Isa 28

I don't drink, but I can't say the Bible forbids it within moderation...I think so much depends on the individual, if you have an addictive personality, if it hinders someone else's faith etc., or if you can have whatever amount doesn't impair your thinking and put you under another authority or influence, then perhaps it's between that individual and God.  

As a clinician, I personally see so many problems and people whose lives have been ruined by alcohol (and marijuana and other drugs) being a big part of that picture - as well as coming from a family of having had an addicted gambler, 2 alcoholics, and a brother that's drug dependent (in at least partial recovery) - I certainly don't recommend it.  Too much risk without enough possible reward.  But that's MY personal POV.

P.S. another couple of things to toss in the mix.

I've read that the wine in the Bible days was very weak compared to today.  They didn't make it to (necessarily, generally) give people a buzz or help people get falling down drunk.  The juice fermented with time, and I believe I've even read that it had a higher water content/mix.  :dontknow:

Also, I did hear a detailed sermon once, using the greek words, to say that the only place alcoholic wine (not purely grape juice) was ever mentioned in the scriptures as being OK for consumption, was strictly for medicinal purposes.  I don't know if that's the case, but again, I heard a detailed exposition on it several years ago- that all the other words used for 'wine' meant non-alcoholic.  I'll put that "on my list" of things to check into a little deeper.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 07:52:49 PM
Also, I think probably plenty of information has been presented on all sides of this argument for one to make up their mind one way or the other - i.e., sin or not sin, why or why not, etc.  At some point, at the end of the day, it's between that individual and God.  Someone can give me a load of truth, even 3 or 4 times and in 3 or 4 different ways.  If I'm open and honest, I'll receive it and it will help change my life for the better.  If I'm being stubborn and/or in denial, I will reject it and continue to rationalize my behavior.  What else can really be said about this topic?  Maybe somebody's got something new.   :dontknow:

(thanks seth, back at'cha)  

I'm not sure what else to say. I've tried to show you how cannabis isn't dangerous, I addressed the verses about obeying the law of men. Maybe I can leave you with this. A lot of people in this topic have talked about how it, "gives you a false sense of happiness, which should only come from God." or something to that effect. Also, that something shouldn't "make" you feel a curtain way. Let me put it this way, you're watching a funny show on TV, you laugh at it, and it makes you feel happy. By that logic, you shouldn't watch it, but cause it's making you happy without God. Do you see how ridiculous that kind of thinking is? God wants us to love him, and love others. (1 John something:something) If something, like a TV show, playing a sport, or enjoying a plant makes us happy, why would God not want us to be happy?

Aside from numerous other things, I don't believe it's not physically harmful.  There's "evidence" that says it is, and "evidence" that says it isn't.  Which one's true and which one's propoganda?  I believe the former is true and the latter propoganda - to justify a behavior.

I've been a behavioral health therapist for 25 years+ now - probably done a thousand or more assessments, hospitalizations, etc.  In that experience, I've seen enough devastation of human lives (multiple factors, often including drug abuse/dependence, mj often included in the mix) to support my personal view that it's not harmless.  One has to make up their own mind though, and sometimes that only comes through the school of hard knocks.  Denial and rationalization are strong forces.  Experience is a great teacher

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: wwFor me the simple fact that Jesus drank wine if proof that alcohol is not forbidden. Of course that doesn't clearly show being drunk is or isn't forbidden.

We see God railing against his drunken priests.  To whom will he explain his message if his priests are all a bunch of drunks?  So, I'd say there is a line that is crossed.  Of course, they can also be drunk with power, or any other foul thing.

I know I keep asking....
The job of the priests is to serve God. If they are constantly drunk they can't do their job. That's  surely wrong.
But is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.
Is being drunk ok when not on duty? Would God be angry if the were drunk the first time in 10 years?
Does God has other or stricker laws for priest concerning alcohol?

Personally I have nothing against people being drunk. But not if they drive a car when drunk because they endanger lives.

Hi Lupec, I watched most of your movie, and talked to a few friends.

I guess I could go along with it being made legal and regulated like alcohol and tobacco.  But I still worry about the effect on children--and in this case, I consider them children under the age of 25 because it is a mind altering drug.   I don't think you should mess with the brain before it is fully developed or mess with a person's psyche before that is fully developed, either.  So with that caveat, I could go along with you.

I do continue to think, however, that drugs and alcohol are really not necessary or even conducive to a full and happy life.  Tuning in and dropping out is not the answer.  We need a lot of sober people to accomplish what we are meant to do.

Quote from: wwBut is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.

They can no longer do their job because they are drunk.  Isn't a priest a priest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:16:42 PMAs a clinician, I personally see so many problems and people whose lives have been ruined by alcohol (and marijuana and other drugs) being a big part of that picture - as well as coming from a family of having had an addicted gambler, 2 alcoholics, and a brother that's drug dependent (in at least partial recovery) - I certainly don't recommend it.  Too much risk without enough possible reward.  But that's MY personal POV.

Addiction is never good. Everything I wrote is about recreational use. And I agree with Willie when he said no drugs for under 18. I heared stories or kids sitting stoned in class. Altough I see no harm in a joint I don't think joints mix well with studying.... No education=no future

That's my opion. But it's not my opnion being discussed here but Father's opinion...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 08:30:48 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: wwFor me the simple fact that Jesus drank wine if proof that alcohol is not forbidden. Of course that doesn't clearly show being drunk is or isn't forbidden.

We see God railing against his drunken priests.  To whom will he explain his message if his priests are all a bunch of drunks?  So, I'd say there is a line that is crossed.  Of course, they can also be drunk with power, or any other foul thing.

I know I keep asking....
The job of the priests is to serve God. If they are constantly drunk they can't do their job. That's  surely wrong.
But is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.
Is being drunk ok when not on duty? Would God be angry if the were drunk the first time in 10 years?
Does God has other or stricker laws for priest concerning alcohol?

Personally I have nothing against people being drunk. But not if they drive a car when drunk because they endanger lives.

WW, you're one to look for it written in the scriptures.  One I found strictly "don't be drunk".  No specification on whether it's a priest, or layperson.  "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit";  Eph. 5:18

The other two directly address the 'law' issue.  (Paul also talks of lawlessness [rebellion, having a stubborn spirit etc.] as being something to shun and/or an example of depravity, as I would interpret it.

"Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God".  Romans 13:1

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,"  I Peter 2:13

I don't see a lot of gray areas there.  Is it against the law, or not?  Am I being obedient as God has instructed, or not?

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:39:44 PM

Quote from: wwBut is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.

They can no longer do their job because they are drunk.  Isn't a priest a priest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

I don't know. Don't they have a few days of each year.
I read the Jewish Times once in a while. There is a section "Ask the Rabbi" aren't that priests?
Someone asked it was allowed to have sex (within marriage ofcourse) during Sabbath.
The Rabbi answered something like. I like it. It make my wife feel good too. So it isn't work so it's allowed.
I would never have expected that answer but that's not the point. If a Rabbi is a priest is he allowed to have sex during work? (24/7 job)

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 08:47:38 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:39:44 PM

Quote from: wwBut is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.

They can no longer do their job because they are drunk.  Isn't a priest a priest 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

I don't know. Don't they have a few days of each year.
I read the Jewish Times once in a while. There is a section "Ask the Rabbi" aren't that priests?
Someone asked it was allowed to have sex (within marriage ofcourse) during Sabbath.
The Rabbi answered something like. I like it. It make my wife feel good too. So it isn't work so it's allowed.
I would never have expected that answer but that's not the point. If a Rabbi is a priest is he allowed to have sex during work? (24/7 job)

I'm talking about Old Testament priests, who are the template for the Melchizedek priest, not modern day Rabbi's.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 08:39:49 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:16:42 PMAs a clinician, I personally see so many problems and people whose lives have been ruined by alcohol (and marijuana and other drugs) being a big part of that picture - as well as coming from a family of having had an addicted gambler, 2 alcoholics, and a brother that's drug dependent (in at least partial recovery) - I certainly don't recommend it.  Too much risk without enough possible reward.  But that's MY personal POV.

Addiction is never good. Everything I wrote is about recreational use. And I agree with Willie when he said no drugs for under 18. I heared stories or kids sitting stoned in class. Altough I see no harm in a joint I don't think joints mix well with studying.... No education=no future
That's my opion. But it's not my opnion being discussed here but Father's opinion...

And IMO, therein lies a big part of the problem.  Not only "why the risk of something that has been shown to be involved in the mix of so many problems"?  Addiction and its effects are a mixture of things, genes, upbringing, then mixing substances in with it.  My coworker JUST interrupted my typing this to tell me she just did a phone assessment regarding a person that was brought to hospital by the police.  Shooting holes in the ceiling of his house with a shotgun.  Drunk, postive for benzos, amphetamines, and cannabis.  Sorry, but the "safe little herb" contention doesn't wash with me.  Too many people can't "get away with it", and then too many people who can't get away with it, think they can.  Until they crash.  Hey, someone might be the one out of x many that has no major (apparent) problems.  Maybe they think it's worth the gamble.  Time tells.  I've been in this field long enough to know though, that denial and rationalization are so strong, sometimes it either takes a miracle, or that person having enough consequences that they finally wake up.  

And if it doesn't mix well with studying, what is that telling us about thought processes, decision-making, being influenced?

Alright, I'm winding down with this topic.  Everyone's got to decide.

"Be filled with the Holy Spirit".

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:30:45 PM
Aside from numerous other things, I don't believe it's not physically harmful.  There's "evidence" that says it is, and "evidence" that says it isn't.  Which one's true and which one's propoganda?  I believe the former is true and the latter propoganda - to justify a behavior.

I've been a behavioral health therapist for 25 years+ now - probably done a thousand or more assessments, hospitalizations, etc.  In that experience, I've seen enough devastation of human lives (multiple factors, often including drug abuse/dependence, mj often included in the mix) to support my personal view that it's not harmless.  One has to make up their own mind though, and sometimes that only comes through the school of hard knocks.  Denial and rationalization are strong forces.  Experience is a great teacher

There isn't "evidence" to say it is. The "evidence" was made in a attempt to get something good and useful illegal. If you watch The Union, you'll see how it happened. And may I again reefer to Dr. Donald Tashkin?

http://current.com/items/90058270_dr-donald-tashkin-ucla-id-be-in-favor-of-legalization.htm (http://current.com/items/90058270_dr-donald-tashkin-ucla-id-be-in-favor-of-legalization.htm)

QuoteUCLA's Tashkin studied heavy marijuana smokers to determine whether the use led to increased risk of lung cancer and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, or COPD. He had hypothesized that there would be a definitive link between cancer and marijuana smoking, yet the results proved otherwise.

"What we found instead was no association and even a suggestion of some protective effect," says Tashkin, whose research was the largest case-control study ever conducted. The study was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

Tobacco smokers in the study had as much as a 21-fold increase in lung cancer risk. Cigarette smokers, too, developed COPD more often in the study, and researchers found that marijuana did not impair lung function. Tashkin, supported by other research, concluded that the active ingredient tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, has an "anti- tumoral effect" in which "cells die earlier before they age enough to develop mutations that might lead to lung cancer."

However, the smoke from marijuana did swell the airways and lead to a greater risk of chronic bronchitis.

"Early on, when our research appeared as if there would be a negative impact on lung health, I was opposed to legalization because I thought it would lead to increased use and that would lead to increased health effects," Tashkin says.

"But at this point, I'd be in favor of legalization. I wouldn't encourage anybody to smoke any substances, because of the potential for harm. But I don't think it should be stigmatized as an illegal substance.

"Tobacco smoking causes far more harm. And in terms of an intoxicant, alcohol causes far more harm."

But you and I both know nether of us are going to go against our beliefs. I used to think cannabis was a "dangerous drug". Then I started looking at the evidence, and I learned it was not. And yes, experience is a great teacher.

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:34:22 PM
Hi Lupec, I watched most of your movie, and talked to a few friends.

I guess I could go along with it being made legal and regulated like alcohol and tobacco.  But I still worry about the effect on children--and in this case, I consider them children under the age of 25 because it is a mind altering drug.   I don't think you should mess with the brain before it is fully developed or mess with a person's psyche before that is fully developed, either.  So with that caveat, I could go along with you.

I do continue to think, however, that drugs and alcohol are really not necessary or even conducive to a full and happy life.  Tuning in and dropping out is not the answer.  We need a lot of sober people to accomplish what we are meant to do.

If children are going to smoke, they're going to smoke. It's up to their parents to stop them, not the government. I agree with an over 21 cutoff, unless more conclusive evidence can be gathered about brain function, if it were made legal today.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:41:45 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 08:30:48 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 08:14:58 PM

Quote from: wwFor me the simple fact that Jesus drank wine if proof that alcohol is not forbidden. Of course that doesn't clearly show being drunk is or isn't forbidden.

We see God railing against his drunken priests.  To whom will he explain his message if his priests are all a bunch of drunks?  So, I'd say there is a line that is crossed.  Of course, they can also be drunk with power, or any other foul thing.

I know I keep asking....
The job of the priests is to serve God. If they are constantly drunk they can't do their job. That's  surely wrong.
But is it a sin because they are drunk or because they no longer do their job.
Is being drunk ok when not on duty? Would God be angry if the were drunk the first time in 10 years?
Does God has other or stricker laws for priest concerning alcohol?

Personally I have nothing against people being drunk. But not if they drive a car when drunk because they endanger lives.

WW, you're one to look for it written in the scriptures.  One I found strictly "don't be drunk".  No specification on whether it's a priest, or layperson.  "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit";  Eph. 5:18

The other two directly address the 'law' issue.  (Paul also talks of lawlessness [rebellion, having a stubborn spirit etc.] as being something to shun and/or an example of depravity, as I would interpret it.

"Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God".  Romans 13:1

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,"  I Peter 2:13

I don't see a lot of gray areas there.  Is it against the law, or not?  Am I being obedient as God has instructed, or not?

I already addressed that whole chapter, if you want, I'll quote the article I read about it.

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm

QuoteUnderstanding Romans 13:1-7

How are we going to overcome Romans 13? What was Apostle Paul really saying? The best way to bring understanding on Romans 13 is to ask, "Who was apostle Paul writing to at Rome?" The answer is found at Romans 1:7: Paul was writing to all those in Rome who are "beloved of God, called to be saints." He was not writing to the general population at Rome. He was specifically addressing the "called out ones," the Body of Christ.

HeadsmanIf apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?

The world loves its own. If Paul belonged to Caesar, Caesar would not want to kill his own. If Paul was promoting "be subject to Caesar," then Paul would be Caesar's friend. You would not kill your own. You don't destroy the very instrument that advertises for you.

The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.

If Romans 13 does not mean "obey the State," what does it mean? Romans 13 means, "Remember them which have the rule over you," as you will also find at Hebrews 13:7. Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those who look after their souls. It is a reminder to be obedient to the authorities God has placed over His people. For they are truly the "ministers of God to thee for good." Unlike worldly rulers, God's ministers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Therefore, "do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same."

Powers Not Ordained By God

Romans 13 is probably the most devastating thing to a Christian in the hands of the ungodly. It sounds so convincing to obey those who appear to be in power. For too long, secular governments have used Romans 13 as a club to beat Christians into obedience to them. Just because a group maintains power through their guns and jails, does not mean God put them there.

God said there are powers not ordained by Him at Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not."

God didn't put them in power over the righteous. That's Satan's idea. The righteous don't need worldly, filthy authorities, which are no authorities at all. Do you think that they can instruct the righteous? They themselves steal. They themselves are perverts. And they presume to instruct the righteous? I don't think so.

Secular Governments Persecuted Paul

Paul being lowered in a basketApostle Paul had many troubles with worldly rulers. He was given 39 stripes five times by the Jews, beaten with rods three times, in perils by his own countrymen and by the heathen, and frequently in prison. (See 2 Corinthians 11:23-26). In Damascus the governor kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to apprehend Paul. "And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands," wrote Paul at 2 Corinthians 11:32. That is the same Paul that wrote Romans 13. He was forced to flee from the civil authorities, those "powers that be" that people say are ordained of God. Sorry folks, this does not compute. When Paul says, "the powers that be," he is saying the powers that be powers, are ordained of God. In other words, the only true powers are those that God ordains.

The crux of the matter is this, Does Paul in Romans 13:1-7 argue that the civil government of this world has legitimate authority over the people of God? We believe that the obedient, called-out people of God are not bound to obey manmade civil governments. God's people are answerable to God above all else and are bound by His commands. At the same time, God's people are not to use their liberty as a cloak to do evil, to foment rebellion or waste time trying to influence the politics of the governments of this world. Furthermore, we believe Paul in Romans 13:1-7 is referring to the spiritual leaders of the Body of Christ, not the civil authorities of this world.

If Paul is saying, "Obey the civil authorities," then he has a conflict in his life. Is Paul promoting Caesar or separating from Caesar? If Paul is promoting Caesar, there is no way I want Paul in my Bible. He can't work for Caesar and Jesus Christ. Caesar already has his writings, they are called "revised statutes" or the "law of the land." You can have them if you want. I would rather have God's Word. Actually that which is called the "law of the land," is the law of the devil. The term is used in the U.S. Constitution, where men claim that their laws are the supreme law of the land (See U.S. Constitution, Article VI).

Supreme Law of the Land

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). Do you know what that represents to a Christian? These two commands are the Supreme Law of the Land. If you believe that something else is the supreme law of the land for a Christian, someone has deceived you. It was a thief who drew you away from the true Supreme Law of the Land (see John 10:8).

If you have the two great commandments, how much allegiance do you have left for the worldly rulers of this dark age? Let me tell you, you have ZERO allegiance to Satan and his agents. All your time is spent "loving God" and "loving neighbor," and there is no room left over for obeying Satan and his minions.

   And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 1 John 5:19

Submitting to the King of Heaven

As true followers of Jesus, we are led by the Spirit and our lives reflect the fact that we belong to another kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven. Our stay on earth is only transitory. As citizens of Heaven, we are bound to submit and pledge allegiance to the King of Heaven and His government over us. We are not bound to obey the government of some nation just because we happen to be living within their so-called "borders."

Remember, "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof" (1 Corinthians 10:26). Yet there is a pack of thieves out there who have divided up the earth and perverts are ruling over it. And they are doing it at the egging on of Satan himself.

Romans 13 has been wrongly interpreted by ruling secular governments to mean a Christian must submit to them. This misinterpretation forms a powerful weapon to neutralize and misdirect the power of God's Kingdom.

As the followers of Jesus Christ, we belong to another Kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom has its own government, its own laws, and its own leaders. Apostle Paul was not commanding us in Romans 13 to submit to the civil authorities of the kingdoms of this world. He was commanding us to submit to the authority of God's leaders who oversee the "called-out ones."

It is a fallacy that Paul was commanding Christians at Rome to submit to the secular government. It is time that Christ's followers renounce their allegiance to the ever-changing governments of men. They must set an example that there is a higher and more perfect form of government, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Of course there will be consequences. Jesus was brought to Pilate to be crucified on charges of "perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King" (Luke 23:2). We, too, must be willing to sacrifice even our very lives to proclaim God's sovereign rulership over us.

Loyalty and Obedience to Christ

When we boldly declare that we belong to God's Kingdom, we are left with no choice but to trust God for His provision in the face of a hostile world. We quickly learn that our safety is in our obedience. To trust in carnal weapons and physical force is vanity. We serve a living God. He is well able to make a way for us regardless of how much the modern day Nebuchadnezzar's rage and threaten to destroy us.

Christians are in no way bound by the Scriptures to obey and support the manmade governments of this world. We are bound to live peaceably with all men to the greatest degree possible. Yet our loyalty, allegiance, and obedience must always be found at the feet of Christ. Our goal is to see souls brought to Christ. The more fully we separate from the world and consecrate ourselves to God, the more power we will have to infiltrate the hearts and minds of men with a living example of the Gospel. The world must see that God does have a people on this earth, and that His power dwells in their midst. Let us commit ourselves to His kingdom and be His people.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:52:50 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 08:39:49 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:16:42 PMAs a clinician, I personally see so many problems and people whose lives have been ruined by alcohol (and marijuana and other drugs) being a big part of that picture - as well as coming from a family of having had an addicted gambler, 2 alcoholics, and a brother that's drug dependent (in at least partial recovery) - I certainly don't recommend it.  Too much risk without enough possible reward.  But that's MY personal POV.

Addiction is never good. Everything I wrote is about recreational use. And I agree with Willie when he said no drugs for under 18. I heared stories or kids sitting stoned in class. Altough I see no harm in a joint I don't think joints mix well with studying.... No education=no future
That's my opion. But it's not my opnion being discussed here but Father's opinion...

And IMO, therein lies a big part of the problem.  Not only "why the risk of something that has been shown to be involved in the mix of so many problems"?  Addiction and its effects are a mixture of things, genes, upbringing, then mixing substances in with it.  My coworker JUST interrupted my typing this to tell me she just did a phone assessment regarding a person that was brought to hospital by the police.  Shooting holes in the ceiling of his house with a shotgun.  Drunk, postive for benzos, amphetamines, and cannabis.  Sorry, but the "safe little herb" contention doesn't wash with me.  Too many people can't "get away with it", and then too many people who can't get away with it, think they can.  Until they crash.  Hey, someone might be the one out of x many that has no major (apparent) problems.  Maybe they think it's worth the gamble.  Time tells.  I've been in this field long enough to know though, that denial and rationalization are so strong, sometimes it either takes a miracle, or that person having enough consequences that they finally wake up.  

And if it doesn't mix well with studying, what is that telling us about thought processes, decision-making, being influenced?

Alright, I'm winding down with this topic.  Everyone's got to decide.

"Be filled with the Holy Spirit".

So he had four different drugs in his system, two that are known to bring out violent behavior (Alcohol and Meth.) and you blame that cannabis? Just so you know, testing positive for cannabis does not mean you're high. You can still test positive for up to thirty days after you smoke.

Oh, and riding a roller coaster, while fun, does not mix well with studying ether. Is it a sin to ride a roller coaster because it's fun?

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:41:45 PMOne I found strictly "don't be drunk".  No specification on whether it's a priest, or layperson.  "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit";  Eph. 5:18

The word excess is translated in many ways between versions. It also have various meanings.
But this one seems to fit best in this discussion "lacking restraint"
I think everyone reads it the way to prove his/her point made earlier in this thread. I read it as that not alcohol, not being drunk is a problem. But loosing control. If a joint/pint makes you feel happy and/or sleepy/happy that's no problem. But if it leads to hurting others of swearing then that is the problem.

QuoteAm I being obedient as God has instructed, or not?

Sorry James... what exactly did God instruct regarding Willie's joint?

Quote from: Lupac on November 27, 2009, 08:53:41 PM

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 08:30:45 PM
Aside from numerous other things, I don't believe it's not physically harmful.  There's "evidence" that says it is, and "evidence" that says it isn't.  Which one's true and which one's propoganda?  I believe the former is true and the latter propoganda - to justify a behavior.

I've been a behavioral health therapist for 25 years+ now - probably done a thousand or more assessments, hospitalizations, etc.  In that experience, I've seen enough devastation of human lives (multiple factors, often including drug abuse/dependence, mj often included in the mix) to support my personal view that it's not harmless.  One has to make up their own mind though, and sometimes that only comes through the school of hard knocks.  Denial and rationalization are strong forces.  Experience is a great teacher

There isn't "evidence" to say it is. The "evidence" was made in a attempt to get something good and useful illegal. If you watch The Union, you'll see how it happened. And may I again reefer to Dr. Donald Tashkin?

OK Lupac, decide for yourself brother.  Too many years in the field, year after year been exposed to both information and real life situations, and you're telling me there's no evidence that marijuana can be harmful - at the very least, as part of a pattern/mix/ of systemic dysfunction that's harmful to people?  Sorry, too much water under the bridge for that one.

While you're examining things, just please make sure you look into the defense mechanisms of rationalization and denial.  But again, it may be a number of years and bad situations in your life before you look back and see things for what they are.  Or, maybe you'll be one of the few who "get by with it", or at least be one of the many who don't ever realize that they didn't.

And brother, I don't want to argue with you.  The main thing is, believe on Jesus with your whole heart, and let's continue to love and help each other.  Sorry for anything I may have said unkindly.   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 27, 2009, 09:00:57 PM

QuoteAm I being obedient as God has instructed, or not?

Sorry James... what exactly did God instruct regarding Willie's joint?

Context my friend, context.   :bigGrin:

Well you rascal, I can't speak for Willi and his joint  :laughing7:.  I can only speak for me.  So,

I would believe, FOR ME, that;

1) I was doing something that would do (even potentially) unecessary harm to my body, specifically my lungs - and/or, with my other chinks in my armor, including my family history, I would be opening up possibilities of advancement to using other things.  Many may claim "not so".  I'm saying for me (and many people I've worked with) very likely "so".
2) I would be sinning by breaking the law where I live
3) I would be a poor witness to my children and others to whom it would be a stumbling block
4) I would be violating my consience because I would believe I was putting myself under an influence and/or authority other than the Holy Spirit

I can add, there's many a testimony around of folks who were bound to such activities that were miraculously delivered upon their salvation experience.  The Holy Spirit cleansing and filling them so they no longer desired such diversions.  My Dad being one astounding example of this.  :thumbsup: 

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:23:14 PM
Exodus 30:9
Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.


Could this apply?

:cloud9: It applies to everything.........gonna be a long one, bear with me.

Strange = that which is not ordered by God to fulfill His purpose. Strange there means loathsome of BREATH, stranger, enemy, harlot woman, to alienate.

Strange incense = unrighteous prayers thru the MIND (only Christ is righteous and we pray according to His perfect will or let the upright Spirit pray thru us)

Strange burnt sacrifice = a sacrifice is that which is given by the WILL of man, not ordered by God, such as thinking that we are supposed to STAY in sickness as a "sacrifice". MANY are the afflictions of the righteous, BUT the Lord God delivers them out of them ALL (sooner or later as we keep pressing in).

Strange meat offering = meat there means to apportion or bestow. He apportioned Himself in the inner court baptism of the Spirit so that we could walk in His nature, displaying His fruits and these fruits are as His EMOTIONS, ie. kindness, meekness, ect. When we display things not on that list of the fruit of the Spirit to others, we are offering up that thing to HIM in them, which is why it says whatever you have done to the least of them, you've done unto Me.

Strange drink offering = the word drink there means to pour out, cast metal images, to anoint a king. Jesus poured out the money of the money changers, which is when He deals with our DESIRES, as the love of money (self gain) is the root of all evil. It is the "golden calf" of the heart, ie. the best (gold) carnal man (beast of burden/works of the flesh) has to offer.  

Eve DESIRED the fruit because it looked good and to make her wise. This is where He deals with the motive of the heart, EVEN FOR WHY WE WANT TO SERVE HIM. Five fold, would you still serve Him if it was only you and Him and no one else ever knew your name, thought you "righteous", or paid you to do THEIR sacrifices?

In the "curse" spoke to Eve, God told her He would turn her desire to her husband. Desire there means longing or craving and comes from a root word that means to stretch out after, to give abundance to, to overflow.

Eve, our soul, stretches out or reaches for after that which is NOT EXPEDIENT. The law is the ministration of condemnation, ie. it carries a curse with it for disobedience, that being death. By reaching out in this fashion, our iniquity is INCREASED, instead of what John said we must do, ie. decrease so the He can increase. I'm not going to go there now, but iniquity it was said, was FOUND. One of the meanings of that word "found" there is, TO PRESENT AN OFFERING.

It wasn't "found" as if it was a "surprise" to God, because He is the one who lowered us into the bondage of corruption to begin with, and He knew what was in the man He had created. He knew that the Satanic nature within carnal man would always reach for (and thereby present as an offering to Him IN MAN) that which is not expedient and brings death, for the thief cometh not but to kill, steal and destroy. Eve gave Adam the fruit and he did eat. The word "gave" there also means to stretch out, consecrate or devote (as for an OFFERING).

In short, this is why all four portions of our soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) must go on the altar of God and be consumed with fire, and this is our reasonable service (as priests) to make of ourselves a LIVING sacrifice, ie. offering, a living soul or soul that was given life. We were MADE to be an offering, and in return for giving all that we are, He gives us all that He is. Blessings....  

willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHIllegal in some places, not in others.  :dontknow:  Because MEN have deemed something as ILLEGAL, does not mean that it should be ILLEGAL.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:22:21 AMJust because we think something shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean we shouldn't be obedient and compliant with those laws. If you believe smoking pot is the Lord's bidding than do it even if it is illegal. However, I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God. When the laws of the land do not conflict with God's commandments to us, we should obey those laws.

You are correct here, and I am in agreement with you about it.  Which is pretty much why I ceased using it.  That LAWS made by men exist, does not mean they are necessary or GOOD ones.  There are MANY LAWS on the books, especially in "out of the way" towns, that are QUITE ridiculous in this day & age... Yet, they have never been removed.

In LEGALISTIC terms we look at the "laws of the land", and take God's WORD, that these must be OBEYED... and that is primarily a good thing... However, we must also consider the SPIRIT of God's WORD... which is NOT LEGALISTIC... nor must be considered in those terms.

Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHAs to whether or not it is a drug... again, opinion.  It is a herb/weed created by God.  And has an inherent chemistry, as do all plants.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:22:21 AMTechnically speaking it is a drug. That doesn't make it bad. So is aspirin.

Oh really?  This statement is essentially "splitting hairs" bro...

"Technically" according to WHO?  :dontknow:

SUGAR (a LEGALLY sold product) can and DOES elevate children to raised and chaotic behavior by raising adrenalin in the system, making the pancreas release insulin in an UNNATURAL process...

http://macrobiotics.co.uk/sugar.htm#effect

Is SUGAR "technically" a DRUG, Seth?  If it IS (for it is "known" that it can and does damage to the body, and does AFFECT the mind), why do the sources (you probably refer to) that determine marijuana to be a "DRUG", not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

Quote....not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

They should, if the growth in the incidence of childhood type II diabetes is any indicator.

I think within the next decade we very well may see marijuana decriminalized nationally and tobacco, if not outlawed, taxed to the point of making it unaffordable - both of which are fine with me.   I know some fine souls who smoke pot in the very same way someone would indulge in a glass or two of wine.  I think a lot of the conservative views on it are a matter of social conditioning.

And that's all I will say about it in this thread.

Anne

willieH: Hi noname... :hithere:

Quote from: noname on November 27, 2009, 11:13:15 AM
hey WillieH,
excuse my twisted sense of humour...I was saying these things tongue in cheek :winkgrin:
I've never seen marijuana users get up to the destructive things some alcohol users get into...that's what i was trying to show...not that i'm saying all alcohol users do get violent, but many do...and alcohol is like the fuse that starts the fire...and the thing is alcohol is legal...that's why i was on about the fruits...
if you look at statistics how many road accidents are caused by alcohol abuse, domestic violence etc etc
you do not get these things type of things with mellowed out mj smokers

with regards to rastafarians, i was truying to point out they they would never hurt a fly when stoned or not...but many "straight" people would not flinch when killing another human being

here in africa mj has been used for centuries as medicine, stress relievant, social interaction etc and has never been seen as a drug in the sense that heroin would be, so no convincing necessary here my friend :thumbsup:

Thanks for the explanation my friend...  :ty:

If Anne doesn't want to respond, maybe someone else will, or at least it'll be food for thought for someone besides myself.  :bigGrin:

Isn't it reasonable to say 1 joint and 1 glass of wine will likely not produce the same effect?  I'd suggest most people wouldn't be "under the influence" of 1 glass of wine.  

Oh well, anyway, I'm planning on being done with this thread unless it's to moderate.  I've said plenty, and after awile I get dizzy goin' 'round in circles.   :happy3:

Until next time, friends....

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 11:30:45 PM
Isn't it reasonable to say 1 joint and 1 glass of wine will likely not produce the same effect?  I'd suggest most people wouldn't be "under the influence" of 1 glass of wine.

Most people don't smoke a whole joint. it's not uncommaon that a joint is passed along. Many people just take 1 or 2 puffs.
As with everything moderation is the key. Some drink one glass of wine others a bottle.

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 11:30:45 PM
If Anne doesn't want to respond, maybe someone else will, or at least it'll be food for thought for someone besides myself.  :bigGrin:

Isn't it reasonable to say 1 joint and 1 glass of wine will likely not produce the same effect?  I'd suggest most people wouldn't be "under the influence" of 1 glass of wine.  

Oh well, anyway, I'm planning on being done with this thread unless it's to moderate.  I've said plenty, and after awile I get dizzy goin' 'round in circles.   :happy3:

Until next time, friends....

James,
I didn't say that people smoked an entire joint alone, I said some people smoke pot in the same way that others have a glass of wine or two.   I used to be very judgmental about pot smokers a long time ago  - I grew up under the strong influence of Mrs. Reagan's just-say-no campaign and I never liked pot the few times I have smoked it.  However, I think it does not affect everyone the same way.  
I don't think it is even  remotely dangerous compared with meth and cocaine.  And I think it is beyond belief to think of people being locked up for having a bag of weed in their possession.  

I said that I was not going to say more.  But since you mentioned my name, I have.   The only drugs I personally do are tequila and triple sec and of course sugar -- I can't kick my sugar habit.  

Anne

p.s. I forgot about my coffee and tea addiction.  I use those daily as well.  Also diet Pepsi.  I'm a druggie.

Thanks.  As I've repeated, I can't judge anyone.  If we wanted to, I do things you (anyone) could judge me for and vice-versa.  Maybe let's don't.   :mblush:  Nobody else can stand before God for us...we got'ta do it ourselves.

(the sugar's a tough one, huh?  I admit, I'm guilty...I have sugar on my hands  :laughhand:)

Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2009, 11:46:43 PM

(the sugar's a tough one, huh?)

Very tough because if you begin to read food labels, it is in all sorts of food products we use.   The masses are crazed and pumped up on high fructose corn syrup!  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on November 27, 2009, 11:20:26 PM
Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  :dontknow:

Well, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order  1 Corinthians 14:33.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

If a believer is smoking pot and therefore willfully breaking the laws of the "magistrates" who govern the land they inhabit (even being strangers in a strange land) and it compromises that peace through lack of submission to that which does not compromise the evangel. How can the the peace of the Lord shine to the world when believers get arrested and punished by that same world-system who those believers ought to be witnessing the Gospel to? Would God want us to sacrifice that peace with all men in order to use pot for one's own spiritual growth? And that is why I think Paul says to be in submission to the governing authority in matters which DO NO conflict with God's evangel.

However it does say "if it be possible" to live peaceably, because it's not always possible. I think the example would be like in Acts 5 when it describes the disciples disobeying orders not to PREACH the Gospel in the temples.

QuoteOh really?  This statement is essentially "splitting hairs" bro...

"Technically" according to WHO?  :dontknow:

I was talking about according to the definition of "drug."

QuoteIs SUGAR "technically" a DRUG, Seth?  If it IS (for it is "known" that it can and does damage to the body, and does AFFECT the mind), why do the sources (you probably refer to) that determine marijuana to be a "DRUG", not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

I am not sure if the FDA qualifies sugar as a drug or not. But according to the "technical" definitions of what a drug is, pot is definitely a drug. However a "drug" not necessarily a bad thing.

drug
Mirriam Webster
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device

2 : a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand —used in the phrase drug on the market
3 : something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 11:22:52 PM

Quote....not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

They should, if the growth in the incidence of childhood type II diabetes is any indicator.

What? WHAT?!? I'm sorry, but I might be the biggest libertarian on the forum. (Can't say for sure.) And this just about makes my blood boil. (Nothing personal Molly.) I just can't stand the "It may hurt people, so it should me illegal." mentality. I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Meaning I'm not looking to other men, or the government to be responsible for my safety.

And Anne, I like you, you make the most sense in the fact that you're not particularity for it, but you're not against it ether.

Seth, I guess it'll do no good to repeat myself. I tried to tell you what Romans 13 is about. I posted this site, now the third time:

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm (http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm)'

But I don't think you've read it. I never had any direct replies from any of my posts from you. I posted scientific evidence for why it should be legal, but little for why a Christian should use it. I guess that's what you're looking for, and since there's no Bible passage about it, you've determined that you shouldn't, so why are you arguing about it?

Quote from: Lupac on November 28, 2009, 12:06:42 AM


Seth, I guess it'll do no good to repeat myself. I tried to tell you what Romans 13 is about. I posted this site, now the third time:

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm (http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm)'

But I don't think you've read it. I never had any direct replies from any of my posts from you. I posted scientific evidence for why it should be legal, but little for why a Christian should use it. I guess that's what you're looking for, and since there's no Bible passage about it, you've determined that you shouldn't, so why are you arguing about it?

Sorry, I didn't notice those posts. I didn't mean to ignore anything you put forth.

I read it, and I didn't see any reason to believe in that person's interpretation of it. We all interpret scriptures differently and that will inform what we believe in the end. As they said, they don't believe Romans 13 is referring to submission to the civil laws of the land. I disagree. God is one of order and peace with all men, and Romans 13 is consistent with that. But you WillieH and I are all free to disagree on that. Peace.  :HeartThrob:

BTW, I don't mind discussing it, but let's just try to keep away from posting with boiling blood when posting with eachother going forward :happygrin: just keep the peace.

Sorry, it was kind of a joke.

Quote from: LupecWhat? WHAT?!? I'm sorry, but I might be the biggest libertarian on the forum. (Can't say for sure.) And this just about makes my blood boil. (Nothing personal Molly.) I just can't stand the "It may hurt people, so it should me illegal." mentality. I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Meaning I'm not looking to other men, or the government to be responsible for my safety.

I can see your point but with so many things, people believe if they are allowed to sell this stuff, surely it can't be harmful.  Then it turns out to be deadly.  Like cigarettes.  I'm sure nobody thought they were harmful back in the day of the Marlboro man.

willieH: Hi bro Seth...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on November 27, 2009, 10:43:38 AM
This STILL does not answer the question... :mnah:  I did not ask you if marijuana was "sinful" in general, nor about legalities...

I asked you... that if an ANNOINTED message comes forth and marijuana is involved... what do have to say of this?  :dontknow:

Does this answer mean that I can write ANNOINTED message or song, or edify God and use marijuana while doing this, ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?  :mshock:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMSorry, I didn't realize your question was concerning legality, just whether I thought use of pot was sinful in that specific case regardless of legality. So, I thought I was answering that question.

Actually, I did not introduce the thought of "legality or illegality" of marijuana at all...  :dontknow:  So I do not understand why you would think to answer this issue?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMYou can write an annointed song and edify God without using pot since God is not confined to pot use to enable a person to do that. That being the case, then I would say yes, to your question.

I completely agree bro... and have written MANY songs WITHOUT using marijuana... My point is that using marijuana does not INHIBIT God from investing Himself in the song or message written and/or presented to others...  :nod:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMThe obvious exception would be if someone says that the status of pot as an illegal substance hinders their obedience to God. In that case however, one would be admitting that edification, spiritual revelation and obedience to God is DEPENDANT on physical substances rather than simply "worshipping in spirit and in truth."

Come on bro... you are reaching!  I have never suggested that using marijuana is NECESSARY for God to invest Himself... nor does the WORD comment upon this one way or the other.  Actually, HE created marijuana with the chemical properties that it has... and HE NEVER creates ANYTHING that has NO PURPOSE, within it... so what do YOU THINK is the PURPOSE of marijuana, and of its "chemical makeup"?

I am (in presenting this thread) about dispensing another MYTH within the teachings of  Christianity... and thus far, you have said little in support of this MYTH, with the EXCEPTION of your OWN THINKING on the matter... :nod:

You have raised another question, that I would like to ask you...  :prankster:

Is it your position that one using marijuana, cannot WORSHIP God "in Spirit and in Truth"?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMIf Spirit and truth are not sufficient enough to edify God and gain spiritual revelation to the full maximum without pot use for a person, then I am sure the person could justify breaking the law to make those spiritual gains.

More of your own deductions, based upon your OWN THINKING...  This is kin to saying, that if I am RAIN-SOAKED WET, and ANNOINTING falls upon my words... that being DRY shall never avail the same ANNOINTING, for I was WET when the ANNOINTING was manifest!  Please, bro... :rolleye:

Quote from: willieHThis would mean that GOD is confined to ANNOINTING on the [PHYSICAL] geographical location, and is further confined to the Administration of MANS LAW... not His...

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMWell, since God is not confined to pot use to enable his anointing, then you obeying the laws to not use it would not confine him in any way. Unless one were to think God needs a person to smoke something to let his anointing loose. That in itself would be confining.

You argue from a position of intelligence, but continually you have no Scriptural basis for that "intelligent" argument, so it thereby fails.

Let us for a moment, refer to the ministry of CHRIST, and obedience to "LAW"...

He was considered a CRIMINAL by the JEWS... which is WHY they had Him ARRESTED...  He was (as far as their LIMITED observation took them), in VIOLATION of the LAW of GOD...  Does this mean that CHRIST was a LAWBREAKER?  After all, He DID do things on the SABBATH, that the LAW "condemned"!!!

Btw... Just curious (and no offense toward you intended, "learning" intended toward you), ...do you KNOW, why CHRIST healing on the SABBATH, and picking corn on the SABBATH and such, was in the SPIRIT --- NOT --- a violation of the LAW, Seth?  The JEWS had no SPIRITUAL INSIGHT concerning the SABBATH, ...do you?

Quote from: willieHNo offense bro, but this is an evasive answer as well...  Please note what YOU consider to be the -- "LIVING WORD", and (if NOT the BIBLE) --  WHERE is this "WORD" found?  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMJesus Christ. And that Word is found in his temple which is his people.

:JCThink:  Hmmmm --- So are you "saying in this statement" --- that YOUR THOUGHTS which are NOT mentioned and SUPPORTED in the WRITTEN WORD, are "His WORD" as well?  And are TRUTH because these "thoughts" LIVE in YOU?

I look forward to your reply to this... :nod:

Quote from: willieHIt appears you rely upon SPIRITUAL revelation, which is OUTSIDE the WRITTEN WORD...

That is your choice.  To me, this is either the practice of ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the WRITTEN WORD...

As always, it is not my intention to change or convince you in any way.  Your life and the conduct within it, is an issue between you and God.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMLike I said, we can agree to disagree, however I am not talking about having revelation outside the written word. If the written word does not call out marijuana SPECIFICALLY, the Holy Spirit leads me to know that pot use in MY case causes a lack of sobriety that He means me to have, by which it becomes sinful behavior FOR ME (speaking individually). And such leading against behaviors which causes a lack of sober living IN ME is of course hardly a new revelation contrary to the written word.

Good enough... Then your answer to the OP question would be something like this:  "concerning -- ME, the use of marijuana is SINFUL"...  :dontknow:

If that coincides with what is in your mind, then I can dig it!  :hihat:  

It is okay for one to abstain from things that they consider SIN unto themselves.  What is WRONG, and unsupported in Scripture, is to take those PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, and deduce another with them (your convictions) as a MEASURE of others. (i.e. -- you don't use marijuana, but if God is leading willieH to use it, it is all right with you  :dontknow:)

Quote from: willieHAnd this is done by the REVELATION which is availed in the WRITTEN WORD.  If "revelation" is found OUTSIDE the WORD, then it is in question.  For we can "play" with this or that, and then say that GOD revealed something which was not founded in what we KNOW is His WORD.  This is where CULT RELIGION is born.  A messenger says he/she has revelation... and does not found this revelation in the WORD of YHVH...

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMThe Spirit leading one in righteousness is NOT contrary to the written Word. And, as I have noted, I did not make a general rule FOR YOU. Only that if any BEHAVIOR causes one to act AGAINST the conduct of righteousness underlined in the written word and moved upon by the Spirit, then it becomes sinful behavior.

Boy... have we boarded the "agreement train" or what?  :laughhand:  This has been my WHOLE POINT!  

Marijuana, is NOT Scripturally denounced.  Only by MEN, is it assigned as TABOO!

Quote from: willieHThe "exception" bro... is the conscience.  If you esteem marijuana use to be sinful, then it is sinful to YOU.  And this measure is personal.  Not to be imposed upon another. -- Rom 14:14

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMAnd the reason I esteem pot use to be sinful TO ME is because the Spirit guides me to know that it was a causal factor FOR ME in not living soberly according to the standard of righteousness that the written word commands and that the Spirit guides in fulfilling.

You have already admitted that the thing you shunned was IMPURE THOUGHTS, which occured both before and after using marijuana... so the CAUSE was present WITHOUT the marijuana eh?  Therefore the CAUSE is NOT the marijuana (even though in your case it may have escalated this thinking)...  Something like --- a FIRE which is burning a pile of wood -- GROWS -- as you pour some GAS on it...  The GAS was NOT the cause of the FIRE, for the FIRE was burning PRIOR to the GAS being thrown upon it.  :dontknow: 

Quote from: willieHStay where you are concerning this brother Seth... you have much life ahead of you to learn... and in that life, you will find that as you step into your years... there shall be "understandings" which you now hold, which you shall abandon.  Life is a process... and you are in the youth of your process.  You have yet to step upon the stones of time that I have already traversed.

That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong.  What it means is that both of us must be seeking REVELATION from God IN HIS WORD, instead of depending upon ourselves, and our "feelings"

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMThe written word is much like the Constitution. It is the LETTER. Yet there is a judge who interprets the words, and that judge is not me but "Christ in me the hope of glory."

The "LETTER" is the vision of the WORD of God, WITHOUT the SPIRIT revealing WHAT it TRULY says...

Quote from: willieHThe "SPIRIT" is much more than a "deliverer" brother.  The SPIRIT of YHVH is ALL encompassing, and about WORKING ALL THINGS, part of which is "deliverance".  

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMBrother, i didn't say that the spirit is ONLY a deliverer.

Here is what YOU SAID:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AM
As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

This statement appears CONFINING to me... Had you said "one of the things of the SPIRIT is for deliverance from sin" --- then it would've been more OPEN sounding.  You followed that statement with -- "THAT is why it was provided for us" -- which again CLOSES the SPIRIT in, encasing it with the word -- "THAT"

Quote from: willieHThere is no basis for this.  I repeat my question which you have evaded several times... When EDIFICATION and SPIRITUAL REVELATION is found in a message which is delivered by one using marijuana... shall you disregard that because marijuana was in use?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMBrother, you asked me how I would determine misuse. I just gave you the answer. The question you asked just NOW, I see as a different question, not regarding what my standard of misuse is but whether I would disregard edification if pot were in use at the time. I would not disregard edification and spiritual revelation just because someone is using pot while doing it, and neither would I credit pot as needful for that.

C'mon Seth... My question has been quoted by me several times... and plainly you did not answer it.  Must I RETRACE all the instances?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHDid you really say this, Seth?  :bigGrin:

The LAW of LIBERTY is the LAW of GOD... pretty plainly noted in James.  That "law" does not discuss marijuana.  

It is your Unscriptural opinion that MARIJUANA is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  Just as you might argue that ALCOHOL is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  And therefore bunch these 2 together and come up with SIN.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMThe law of liberty discusses "liberty" and behavior (in this case use of pot for ME in MY case) which can BECOME an enslaving entity, is behavior that works against that liberty.

Okay bro, MORE POINTED ---> WHAT do you consider the "LAW of LIBERTY"?  Is it OTHER than the "LAW of GOD"?  And if this is in fact, your perception (LAW of GOD=LAW of LIBERTY), then WHERE in the LAW of God is marijuana discussed as OTHER than "LIBERTY"?

Quote from: willieHIt is the UNSUBMITTED and mischoosing, misled, mind and heart that ENSLAVES, not the substances of marijuana and alcohol.  For the HEART by nature is DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9

Quote

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AMLooks like it.  :dontknow:

Yep! :nod:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMEveryone has different experiences I suppose.

Yes... but the LAW and WORD of God is applicable to ALL... and is noted SPIRITUALLY in the WRITTEN WORD...

In our "varying experiences"... is the LAW applied TO US.

Quote from: willieHI do not argue against your testimony Seth.  I believe you when you say that marijuana contributes to this dilemma.  However, the fact that you had this same thing (impure thinking) PRIOR or ASIDE from marijuana use, exposes that as a "SOBER" problem as well...  

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMAre you talking about the ROOT problem. Yet, the branches of a tree are just as much part of the tree as the root, just as physical chains can be an entrapment as the person who tied the person down. I agree bro, pot is not the ROOT problem, but a tree is more than its root. I am saying that for me pot was a negative influence making my mind leading to a lack of sobriety. The slave owner is the carnal mind, and the chains are the substances ranging from eating food to consuming alcohol to smoking pot in each individual case whether legal or illegal. Those actions are not sinful if they do not cause slavery to ungodliness, but they are sinful actions if they do.

Again... apply the measure to yourself only... and THAT is my point in this thread. Marijuana use is NOT condemned in the WORD, no more that FOOD or ALCOHOL is... however, EXCESSIVE use is the principle that we must apply when and if we EAT, DRINK or consume a plant which GOD made...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieHThanks for your honesty... this further cements that marijuana is not the "cause" for both before and after use,  (aside from marijuana) you have had this same problem occur...  Learn about yourself bro... there is no shame in learning.

You cannot blame marijuana for IMPURE thinking, for its experience has occured aside from use.  The IMPURE thinking, is prompting from the FLESH, whether or not marijuana is used.

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 06:30:23 PMAnd pot and other substances work in the flesh to CAUSE impure thoughts. A causal factor does not indicate the root issue, nor was it my intention to suggest it was.

You are welcome to maintain this observation Seth... however, it is nothing more than the "devil MADE ME DO IT" defense.

In the end... God did not blame EVE, nor Adam, nor the Serpent and stop there... He gave them ALL what they had coming, for they ALL conspired to manifest the disobedience.

As Eve blamed the "serpent" and Adam blamed "eve"... God disregarded these attempts at defending what was an INDIVIDUAL accountability.

In this SAME WAY... the IMPURE THINKING is not CAUSED by marijuana in you... for it was manifest apart from marijuana... the FLESH is the CAUSE of those thoughts... and for YOU, marijuana ENHANCED those thoughts.

What I have been saying all along, is that "marijuana" ENHANCES... for me, in a GOOD WAY, for you in a BAD WAY...

So marijuana is neither GOOD nor EVIL... it is something just as ANTHING ELSE, that can manifest as an individual GOOD or EVIL thing.  

Paul noting to take a LITTLE wine for the stomach, was not inferring to drink the whole bottle... rather to ENJOY a little of it, and the beneficial elements within the wine, would  therein be manifest...

However, if EXCESS is applied, where such as -- WINE, FOOD, or MARIJUANA is used, then UNBENEFICIAL things will likely manifest...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 27, 2009, 10:30:20 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 27, 2009, 07:23:14 PM
Exodus 30:9
Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.


Could this apply?

:cloud9: It applies to everything.........gonna be a long one, bear with me.

Strange = that which is not ordered by God to fulfill His purpose. Strange there means loathsome of BREATH, stranger, enemy, harlot woman, to alienate.

Strange incense = unrighteous prayers thru the MIND (only Christ is righteous and we pray according to His perfect will or let the upright Spirit pray thru us)

Strange burnt sacrifice = a sacrifice is that which is given by the WILL of man, not ordered by God, such as thinking that we are supposed to STAY in sickness as a "sacrifice". MANY are the afflictions of the righteous, BUT the Lord God delivers them out of them ALL (sooner or later as we keep pressing in).

Strange meat offering = meat there means to apportion or bestow. He apportioned Himself in the inner court baptism of the Spirit so that we could walk in His nature, displaying His fruits and these fruits are as His EMOTIONS, ie. kindness, meekness, ect. When we display things not on that list of the fruit of the Spirit to others, we are offering up that thing to HIM in them, which is why it says whatever you have done to the least of them, you've done unto Me.

Strange drink offering = the word drink there means to pour out, cast metal images, to anoint a king. Jesus poured out the money of the money changers, which is when He deals with our DESIRES, as the love of money (self gain) is the root of all evil. It is the "golden calf" of the heart, ie. the best (gold) carnal man (beast of burden/works of the flesh) has to offer.  

Eve DESIRED the fruit because it looked good and to make her wise. This is where He deals with the motive of the heart, EVEN FOR WHY WE WANT TO SERVE HIM. Five fold, would you still serve Him if it was only you and Him and no one else ever knew your name, thought you "righteous", or paid you to do THEIR sacrifices?

In the "curse" spoke to Eve, God told her He would turn her desire to her husband. Desire there means longing or craving and comes from a root word that means to stretch out after, to give abundance to, to overflow.

Eve, our soul, stretches out or reaches for after that which is NOT EXPEDIENT. The law is the ministration of condemnation, ie. it carries a curse with it for disobedience, that being death. By reaching out in this fashion, our iniquity is INCREASED, instead of what John said we must do, ie. decrease so the He can increase. I'm not going to go there now, but iniquity it was said, was FOUND. One of the meanings of that word "found" there is, TO PRESENT AN OFFERING.

It wasn't "found" as if it was a "surprise" to God, because He is the one who lowered us into the bondage of corruption to begin with, and He knew what was in the man He had created. He knew that the Satanic nature within carnal man would always reach for (and thereby present as an offering to Him IN MAN) that which is not expedient and brings death, for the thief cometh not but to kill, steal and destroy. Eve gave Adam the fruit and he did eat. The word "gave" there also means to stretch out, consecrate or devote (as for an OFFERING).

In short, this is why all four portions of our soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) must go on the altar of God and be consumed with fire, and this is our reasonable service (as priests) to make of ourselves a LIVING sacrifice, ie. offering, a living soul or soul that was given life. We were MADE to be an offering, and in return for giving all that we are, He gives us all that He is. Blessings....  

That is beautiful!  This is a keeper.  Thanks, Cardinal.

Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 01:19:16 AM
That is beautiful!  This is a keeper.  Thanks, Cardinal.

:thumbsup:  

Quote from: willieH on November 28, 2009, 01:07:44 AM

Actually, I did not introduce the thought of "legality or illegality" of marijuana at all...  :dontknow:  So I do not understand why you would think to answer this issue?

You ended the question with: "ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?"

QuoteI completely agree bro... and have written MANY songs WITHOUT using marijuana... My point is that using marijuana does not INHIBIT God from investing Himself in the song or message written and/or presented to others...  :nod:

:thumbsup: I agree, as nothing can inhibit God when he wants something done.

QuoteCome on bro... you are reaching!  I have never suggested that using marijuana is NECESSARY for God to invest Himself... nor does the WORD comment upon this one way or the other.  Actually, HE created marijuana with the chemical properties that it has... and HE NEVER creates ANYTHING that has NO PURPOSE, within it... so what do YOU THINK is the PURPOSE of marijuana, and of its "chemical makeup"?

I wasn't suggesting that YOU were making that suggestion. But I could see how someone might use that as justification to engage in unlawful activity. Sorry bro, never meant to suggest that YOU were making that case.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteIs it your position that one using marijuana, cannot WORSHIP God "in Spirit and in Truth"?

Nope not at all.

QuoteMore of your own deductions, based upon your OWN THINKING...  This is kin to saying, that if I am RAIN-SOAKED WET, and ANNOINTING falls upon my words... that being DRY shall never avail the same ANNOINTING, for I was WET when the ANNOINTING was manifest!  Please, bro... :rolleye:

Actually that example does not kin to what I was saying. What I was saying is that IF someone says that they cannot receive anointing WITHOUT the substance, I can see why they would use that to justify going against the law to use pot, when in fact, lack of pot use does NOT inhibit God. Again, not to suggest that you are saying it does..

QuoteYou argue from a position of intelligence, but continually you have no Scriptural basis for that "intelligent" argument, so it thereby fails.

Let us for a moment, refer to the ministry of CHRIST, and obedience to "LAW"...

He was considered a CRIMINAL by the JEWS... which is WHY they had Him ARRESTED...  He was (as far as their LIMITED observation took them), in VIOLATION of the LAW of GOD...  Does this mean that CHRIST was a LAWBREAKER?  After all, He DID do things on the SABBATH, that the LAW "condemned"!!!

Yes, in obedience to God. That was the exception I noted before.

QuoteBtw... Just curious (and no offense toward you intended, "learning" intended toward you), ...do you KNOW, why CHRIST healing on the SABBATH, and picking corn on the SABBATH and such, was in the SPIRIT --- NOT --- a violation of the LAW, Seth?  The JEWS had no SPIRITUAL INSIGHT concerning the SABBATH, ...do you?

It wouldn't matter if it was in violation to the Law among those who the Law was intended for. Christ could never violate the Law because the law was not for the righteous, which Christ was and is.

Quote:JCThink:  Hmmmm --- So are you "saying in this statement" --- that YOUR THOUGHTS which are NOT mentioned and SUPPORTED in the WRITTEN WORD, are "His WORD" as well?  And are TRUTH because these "thoughts" LIVE in YOU?

Can you rephrase? I don't understand the question.

QuoteGood enough... Then your answer to the OP question would be something like this:  "concerning -- ME, the use of marijuana is SINFUL"...  :dontknow:

Yes I have affirmed that which is why since we seemed to agree, I have thought it really curious that you seem to disagree with my conclusions. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been.  :dontknow:

QuoteBoy... have we boarded the "agreement train" or what?  :laughhand:  This has been my WHOLE POINT!  

And mine too, which why I thought it was strange that we seemed to be in the middle of a disagreement. I have really been scratching my head about it. :laughing7:

Maybe since we agree on what seems to be a pretty critical point in this whole thing, we can see where we may be not so far apart in what we are saying regardless of what seems to be.

QuoteYou have already admitted that the thing you shunned was IMPURE THOUGHTS, which occured both before and after using marijuana... so the CAUSE was present WITHOUT the marijuana eh?  

Two causes were in me, the propensity toward impure desires and thoughts, and the manifestation of them actively due to the behavior of taking a substance which not only led to them being manifest but made it difficult to be sober enough to take them captive.

QuoteHere is what YOU SAID:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AM
As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

This statement appears CONFINING to me... Had you said "one of the things of the SPIRIT is for deliverance from sin" --- then it would've been more OPEN sounding.  You followed that statement with -- "THAT is why it was provided for us" -- which again CLOSES the SPIRIT in, encasing it with the word -- "THAT"

Ok, but nothing in my statement was false, regardless of how it SEEMED. You said it "APPEARED" confining to you, which according to your own thought process and not from whether what I said was actually true or not. The Spirit IS for deliverance from sin. That IS why it was provided for us. Those are true statements on their own, regardless of whether or not your own thought process caused it to SEEM that I was confining.

QuoteC'mon Seth... My question has been quoted by me several times... and plainly you did not answer it.  Must I RETRACE all the instances?  :dontknow:

Well, as my friend I will hope that you will consider that I am not attempting to evade a question and that maybe I am not understanding the question as you intend. Should we try again?

QuoteOkay bro, MORE POINTED ---> WHAT do you consider the "LAW of LIBERTY"?  Is it OTHER than the "LAW of GOD"?  And if this is in fact, your perception (LAW of GOD=LAW of LIBERTY), then WHERE in the LAW of God is marijuana discussed as OTHER than "LIBERTY"?

I answered that not directly before: liberty from sin.

QuoteYes... but the LAW and WORD of God is applicable to ALL... and is noted SPIRITUALLY in the WRITTEN WORD...

In our "varying experiences"... is the LAW applied TO US.

What I meant was that we just appeared to have different experiences regarding how pot use has affected us and what we have experienced in others. I just found that interesting.

QuoteAgain... apply the measure to yourself only... and THAT is my point in this thread.

Me too. My point concerning your original question is "is pot use sinful" my answer is that it can be. And each person is encouraged to examine themselves to determine that.

QuoteYou are welcome to maintain this observation Seth... however, it is nothing more than the "devil MADE ME DO IT" defense.

Identifying causal influences away from that which one identifies to be leading them away from the place God wants them and obstaining from them and noting them as causal, is not akin to the-devil-made-me-do it.

QuoteIn the end... God did not blame EVE, nor Adam, nor the Serpent and stop there... He gave them ALL what they had coming, for they ALL conspired to manifest the disobedience.

If he held them all accountable it means that when Adam identified Eve and Eve identified the causal influence of the serpent, and God saw that it was truthful, punished them all, including the serpent who beguiled Eve. The serpent wasn't punished for Eve's sin, but for beguiling her, that was his sin. I am not sure what that has to do with identifying a behavior within myself (my own pot use) as sinful since you and I already agree it's fine to do that.



I

Quoten this SAME WAY... the IMPURE THINKING is not CAUSED by marijuana in you... for it was manifest apart from marijuana... the FLESH is the CAUSE of those thoughts... and for YOU, marijuana ENHANCED those thoughts.

I disagree, causality is like a chain, each link leading to the other. Like I said it was not the ROOT, but it is a causal factor for me.

A cause is a person or thing or event or condition which gives rise to an action. If the Lord has me in a place where I am not as bound by thoughts opposed to Him and His righteousness, and put use makes the carnality in me more easily manifest, then along with the root problem (the carnal mind) the put use in that case is indeed causal in reducing my inhibitions against those things giving rise to the action of thinking them.

willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on November 27, 2009, 11:20:26 PM
Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMWell, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order  1 Corinthians 14:33.

Maybe I ain't "gettin' it"... but, ...Again you have not answered my question, bro!  Where is it noted "as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God?"

If you are actually reading my words, then you know that I am quite well aquainted with Rom 13, for I have quoted it several times (it's one of my favorite verses concerning sovereignty).  :myahoo:

However, I think you are reading this passage in the LETTER... not the SPIRIT.  We are instructed to submit to the laws of society, for they (in theory) result in harmonious living.  As in --- If ALL of us observed the speed limits, there would be LESS accidents, as well as LESS serverity in those accidents...

What about "LAWS" that tax the POOR who have nothing to begin with, and allow the RICH, "tax shelters", that they may INDULGE themselves even MORE LAVISHLY?  :dontknow: 

How about the "beaut" that USA -- "LAW making MAGISTRATES" -- gave GEICO to save their company, and the executives of GEICO handed out LARGE BONUSES to other EXECUTIVES?  :mshock:  :thumbdown:

I do not argue against Rom 13, matter of fact -- the FIRST verse tells it ALL... for it notes that ALL POWER is OF GOD.

Meaning that NO POWER that is exercised by ANYONE, has a root, other than in Him.  And it is HE which has INVESTED varying degrees of HIS POWER in His creatures.

Many would review the "Pharaoh vs Moses" confrontation, and note that Moses was God's representative... however, that is not TRUE!  BOTH of these men were raised by GOD to do what they DID.  Even though Pharaoh was doing EVIL... it was GOD who was behind the whole thing, which ended up MAGNIFYING GOOD, as the EVIL could not (and never will)  withstand -- GOOD.

So you in your abstinance, and me in my using, are simply employing the POWER of choice, which was GIVEN to each of us by GOD (with FOREKNOWLEDGE as to what we would "choose" to do with it)... and which will also probably end up being as surprising -- as the "Pharaoh -vs- Moses" thing...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMHebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Not sure of the applicability of these verses, but I am a "PEACE" fan, and love both, thanks for offering them!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMIf a believer is smoking pot and therefore willfully breaking the laws of the "magistrates" who govern the land they inhabit (even being strangers in a strange land) and it compromises that peace through lack of submission to that which does not compromise the evangel. How can the the peace of the Lord shine to the world when believers get arrested and punished by that same world-system who those believers ought to be witnessing the Gospel to

Are you sure you OBEY every LAW, Seth?  Do you EVER drive faster than the speed limit?  By your own admission, YOU have WILLINGLY smoked pot.  Was it in a scenario that was LEGAL?  Did that event (you smoking illegally), alter anything that was MEANT to BE?  And if it were MEANT to be otherwise, ...then why did GOD not intervene?

Strangers in a strange land is one of my favorite novels! (just thought I'd throw that in!)  :laughing7:

The "magistrates" you so staunchly support, are busily manipulating the BUDGETS they are manipulating in their offices, which are taking money out of your pockets, to line their own. 

The NAZI's had rulership over Germany... do you think it was SPIRITUALLY right for the population to SUPPORT these murderers Seth?  Do you think that those who OPPOSED the NAZI's as they ruthlessly scoured their neighbors, raping, pillaging and murdering -- were DISOBEYING GOD? --- In this instance, I think you observe the LETTER of Rom 13, failing to recognize that just because one is IN POWER, does not mean he/she is to be followed into the DITCH.

The Pharisees were leaders... were they not?  What did CHRIST have to say to them about their "leadership"?  And did CHRIST defy that leadership Seth?  Did He not note them to be HARMFUL to the sheep?  As they WILLINGLY "sat in the best seats" and "dressed in the best attire", all at the EXPENSE of their poor followers? 

How about following JESUS -- were the JEWS who became followers of CHRIST and GRACE, and thereby breaking MANY of the LAWS which were noted as BURDENSOME... now deduced as DISOBEYING GOD?  :thumbdown:  How far will you take this LITERAL observation, bro?

What about the LEADERS of the church bro?  Are we to drop our belief in UR, to follow the RELIGIOUSLY educated charletons?  Will you drop your observation of the Gospel, and adopt the larger leadership's version of the "gospel"?  Say, the snazzy and trendy  ORAL ROBERTS or JOEL OSTEEN versions?

There is a lot that can be said of POWER and of LAW and of those who supposedly LEAD and institute "LAWS"... but getting back to basics...

Where in the LAW of LIBERTY is marijuana found debased? 

The very same corrupt bunch of politicians allows NICOTINE to be sold as a LEGAL product (which IS ADDICTIVE and DOES cause CANCER & HEART DISEASE), are making "LAWS" against the legality of marijuana which does no such thing.  Are you a supporter of their "LAWFUL" mandate to SELL CIGARETTES?  Is there not CORRUPTION in allowing ADDICTIVE substances to be sold, and DISALLOWING -- UNADDICTIVE substances?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMWould God want us to sacrifice that peace with all men in order to use pot for one's own spiritual growth?

Where do you get this Seth?  :mshock:  How is PEACE "sacrificed" by marijuana use?  How is spiritual growth denied by its use?  Don't you see that you are INSISTING we all look at this "gray area" with your manner of SHADING?  :sigh:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMAnd that is why I think Paul says to be in submission to the governing authority in matters which DO NO conflict with God's evangel.

Why did you not quote the Scripture upon which you found this?  Hey, I ALWAYS want to learn!  :cloud9:  Where did Paul state this brother?

Quote from: willieHOh really?  This statement is essentially "splitting hairs" bro...

"Technically" according to WHO?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMI was talking about according to the definition of "drug."

Well, all a "definition" is, is a historical account of the applicational usage of a given word... Definitions are changing all the time. GAY once meant "happy"... is that what it commonly means today?

That some governmental agency calls an HERB that God created, a DRUG, does not mean that it is a DRUG...

Quote from: willieHIs SUGAR "technically" a DRUG, Seth?  If it IS (for it is "known" that it can and does damage to the body, and does AFFECT the mind), why do the sources (you probably refer to) that determine marijuana to be a "DRUG", not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMI am not sure if the FDA qualifies sugar as a drug or not. But according to the "technical" definitions of what a drug is, pot is definitely a drug. However a "drug" not necessarily a bad thing.

You accept that marijuana is a DRUG... I do not.  It is an herb.  Which is as it IS, just as GOD created and GAVE it to man -- Gen 1:29

The FDA is not the defining agency for GOD or that which HE CREATED... HE gave ALL the herbs to MAN -- Gen 1:29

Matt 19:6 -- [a principle] "...what GOD hath joined together, let NOT MAN put assunder"   :bgdance:  GOD gave me marijuana... MAN endeavors with his "LAWS" endeavors to take it away...

Irregardless of the FDA "determination" to categorize marijuana as a DRUG, and SUGAR as a FOOD, this "determination" is debatable.  For BOTH can be EATEN...

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMdrug
Mirriam Webster
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device

2 : a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand —used in the phrase drug on the market
3 : something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness

There are MANY, MANY herbal "medicines"... which are NOT manufactured -- my wife works (part time) for an osteopath, who uses herbal remedies which often WORK BETTER than any prescription "DRUG"...

Marijuana in its NATURAL state, is an herb which is helpful in the LEGAL treatment of GLAUCOMA (eye disease)... so it helps one to -- SEE -- as well as helpful and useful in pain management.

The GLAUCOMA victim still experiences the SAME affects as do I, in using marijuana.  So in treating his disease which inhibits his SIGHT, ...he is ending up affected by the marijuana  LEGALLY, and I am not?  What kind of DOUBLE-TALK is this?  :mshock: :thumbdown:

If they LEGALIZE marijuana tomorrow... what then Seth?  Will I be found SINNING in your eyes, even though I now have the LEGAL right to it?  Think about it.  :JCThink:

That is 2 faces of GOVERNMENT in action, which btw, is continually quite CORRUPT in most cases... actively STEALING from us to make themselves richer by CHANGING TAX LAWS to benefit themselves... all the while, putting me in JAIL for the SAME thing a GLAUCOMA victim is doing?  Simply because I do not have a PRESCRIPTION from a doctor, for it.  What HYPOCRISY is this?  It is LEGAL in one instance and not another, or "as long as THEY say so"?

You are welcome to argue this Seth... but mark my words... you will find out that your position on marijuana is NOT spiritually OR Biblically supported, nor should be pointed toward ANYONE other than YOURSELF. (which is what Rom 14:14 endeavors to convey to us all.)

:Peace: bro...

Quote from: willieH on November 28, 2009, 03:00:49 AM
willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on November 27, 2009, 11:20:26 PM
Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Seth on November 27, 2009, 11:53:18 PMWell, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order  1 Corinthians 14:33.

Maybe I ain't "gettin' it"... but, ...Again you have not answered my question, bro!  Where is it noted "as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God?"

WillieH, I think a line has been crossed for me now. You say I have not answered your question when I did, even if you don't think my answer was to your liking does not mean I did not answer. Furthermore you continue to suggest I am evading.

I cannot go further with this because of that as I find that offensive to me and not beneficial in my life to continue with things like that. I don't like being provoked like that. And honestly this issue is of very little importance to me so it's not worth it under circumstances where I feel that I am being provoked. In our conversation I am basically trying to clarify something that I believed to be a pretty harmless statement in my first post (which is clarified enough now since we agreed on what I was trying to clarify) now it's this whole exchange is getting labyrinthine and the underlying issue was never very interesting to me enough to continue in it further than this point. I am going to move on.


Peace brother.

So...
      Now we all see another downfall of even the discussion of marijuana — let alone the use of the substance.
Indulge Adam and he will indulge Eve.

Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2009, 12:45:30 AM

Quote from: LupecWhat? WHAT?!? I'm sorry, but I might be the biggest libertarian on the forum. (Can't say for sure.) And this just about makes my blood boil. (Nothing personal Molly.) I just can't stand the "It may hurt people, so it should me illegal." mentality. I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Meaning I'm not looking to other men, or the government to be responsible for my safety.

I can see your point but with so many things, people believe if they are allowed to sell this stuff, surely it can't be harmful.  Then it turns out to be deadly.  Like cigarettes.  I'm sure nobody thought they were harmful back in the day of the Marlboro man.

Molly, your heart is in the right place, but you line of thinking is what led to prohibition in the 30's, and we all know how well that went...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 28, 2009, 04:10:01 AM


So...
      Now we all see another downfall of even the discussion of marijuana — let alone the use of the substance.
Indulge Adam and he will indulge Eve.

What is this supposed to mean?

The rift between the brethren of Seth and Willie. That's what it means.
This topic is toxic. The Lord Jesus did not rise from the Jordan with a joint in His hand saying: '"Praise the Lord, gimme a toke!"

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 28, 2009, 04:47:21 AM
The rift between the brethren of Seth and Willie. That's what it means.
This topic is toxic. The Lord Jesus did not rise from the Jordan with a joint in His hand saying: '"Praise the Lord, gimme a toke!"

No, but there's evidence to believe that the anointing oil the Jews used contained cannabis. It's just a debate. No one has to get upset over anything. (Except me, and the issue of government control and sugar.  :winkgrin:)

 :cloud9: What evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(etymology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(etymology))

Actually, debates are discouraged here at TM.  It's a discussion forum, to hopefully edify each other, building up in the Spirit, equipping the saints.  I believe this thread has reached beyond its point of any possible edification.  One doesn't have to agree with this, your beliefs and actions are between you and God.  It's one person's opinion, but I see the scriptures say we're to be filled with the Spirit - I can't find any evidence that includes artificially getting high just for the kick of it.  If this was a thread advocating the use of medicinal herbs and attempting to help others with it, that might be another story.  But IMO, that's not what's happening here.  There are actually people who could be on the cusp of their own personal issues and could be damaged by us either advocating recreational drug use, and/or other damaging issues arise when circular arguing and debating occur.  If anyone has a different opinion or wants to pursue their own passions, then that's up to them.  But I believe it's been a matter of public debate more than long enough for now.  How about we talk about something else for a bit.  :bigGrin:

Everyone please feel free to hang around and discuss other things, but for now at least, I'm locking the thread.

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."  Phillipians 4:8.  

Thanks, James.