Although most will not, or are not able to, learn the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, with the tools we have today, it is still possible for almost anyone to check any translation they use with those source texts to verify what is written. That such is needed can be seen by examining how even the insertion of one word that does not belong can totally alter the meaning of the text.
One example can be found in Paul's letter to the Thessalonian believers, where he writes concerning those who do not know God and do not obey the good news:
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
The text seems straightforward enough. What I want you to focus on is where this punishment is taking place.
According to this translation, it is 'away from the Lord's presence and glory', which puts the image in our minds of His presence and glory being in one place, and their punishment taking place in another place away from it.
When you check the text though, as I did in my Aramaic (and most here would in their Greek) there is no preposition APO in the Greek, indicating that this would be AWAY from his presence. And then, in my Aramaic, there is no word מעל, literally, 'from on', which would need to be there to express the concept 'away from'.
The text actually says:
(2Th 1:9) For these will be recompensed with the judgment of eternal destruction, from the presence of Maran, and from the glory of his power;
The 'from' (מן) before the words 'presence' and 'glory' are telling us WHERE the judgment is coming from, which is the exact opposite of what the text says when you add the word 'away' to it. In other words, the judgment of destruction is coming FROM his presence and glory, NOT away from it. His presence and glory are the cause of this destruction, which is what the eastern churches have always maintained, since they reject the Greek idea of dualism.
You can see by the attached screenshot of the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer that the ancient Greek text in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 does not say "eternal" but "eonian extermination from the face of the Lord" which comes to an end at the consummation of the eons when all mankind will be saved (1 Timothy 4:10); all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20); and God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).
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wow, Ronen and Tom is this the same in the presence of the Lamb ? Rev 14 :10 ?
This crude old language we call English , makes it hard for knowledge and understanding to press though lol
But are you both saying the same things ?
and Is it His presence that joins with Him what is of Him and what is not is done away with though the experience of His nature ?
:sigh:
Great OP.
That one verse is mangled by theology in most translations.
Out of the 30 or so translations in the Compare Translations for 2 Thessalonians 1:9
http://www.biblestudytools.com/2-thessalonians/1-9-compare.html
The YLT was the best
2 Thessalonians 1:9(YLT)
who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
King James Version was pretty close other then the understanding of Aionios.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
A matter of study and keeping a truth.... that ALL comes from the Lord. :2c:
Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
wow, Ronen and Tom is this the same in the presence of the Lamb ? Rev 14 :10 ?
This crude old language we call English , makes it hard for knowledge and understanding to press though lol
But are you both saying the same things ?
and Is it His presence that joins with Him what is of Him and what is not is done away with though the experience of His nature ?
:sigh:
I'm not sure I understand your question, Rose, but here is some information for you concerning the portions of scripture in the original post and the one you mentioned as well as what I think is relevant. I think what is important to keep in mind is when you say "done away with," it must be realized that is not a permanent condition as is implied by the words "eternal," "everlasting," and "for ever and ever." That's why it's important to read an accurate translation. The verses in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 actually describe the consummation of the eons when even unbelievers will be immortalized and God will be "all in all" because that is God's ultimate plan, not to destroy or torment forever.
"We ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, according as it is meet; seeing that your faith is flourishing and the love of each one of you all for one another is increasing, so that we ourselves glory in you in the ecclesias of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions with which you are bearing--a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also, if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you, and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ--who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength--whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day. For which we are always praying also concerning you, that our God should be counting you worthy of the calling, and should be fulfilling every delight of goodness and work of faith in power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, in accord with the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:3-12)
"THANKSGIVING
3 The sufferings which were distressing the Thessalonians were the occasion of joy and boasting on the part of the apostle, for it proved the reality of their faith in Christ and developed their affection for one another. He adroitly turns their mistaken idea, that God is afflicting them, into the opposite, that their very sufferings are a sure index that those who afflict them will suffer at His hands. He lays due stress on the fact that God's indignation comes upon those who do not know Him and who do not obey the evangel. By thus turning the minds of the Thessalonians to the future he consoles them in their present trials. Then the opposers will suffer, not only for their sins, but for their persecution of God's saints, while those who are now in distress will enjoy ease and relaxation during the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven. This passage alone should restrain us from including the saints of this economy in any of the companies of the saved mentioned in the scroll of His Unveiling. The persistence with which this thought clung to the Thessalonians is accounted for by the fact that the Circumcision did expect to go through the terrors of that day. Those who endured to the end would be saved. Paul was introducing a new and unknown doctrine, corresponding to his evangel for the nations, in which God's unadulterated grace is far more pronounced than in the gospel of the kingdom as proclaimed by the other apostles.
PRAYER
12 His prayer for them was that they might respond to this grace of God by a present conduct, in the midst of suffering, which would glorify God and His Christ." (Concordant Commentary-pg.314-2 Thessalonians 1:3-12)
"And another, a second messenger, follows, saying, "It falls! It falls! Babylon the great has made all nations drink of the wine of the fury of her prostitution!" And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name. Here is the endurance of the saints, who are keeping the precepts of God and the faith of Jesus." And I hear a voice out of heaven, saying, "Write: 'Happy are the dead who are dying in the Lord henceforth! Yea, the spirit is saying that they will be resting from their toil, for their acts are following with them.'"" (Revelation 14:8-13)
"The Temple Section—The Emblem of the Wild Beast
8 This notation fixes the time of Babylon's overthrow, which is greatly expanded in the next division of this section, where God deals particularly with the apostates of the chosen nation. It falls just before the final judgments which usher in the priestly kingdom. This makes it clear that the Harvest and the Vintage follow Babylon's destruction and that, when we take up the next division of the Temple Section we must go back in time to a period prior to these announcements.
10 This so-called "cup of malediction" (Ps.75:8, 60:3; Isa.51:17-23), was wine fortified with myrrh, frankincense or some other bitter drug. In this case it is not tempered with water (18:6 cf Mt.27:34; Mk.15:23).
11 The torment spoken of in this prophecy is of various lengths and limited to specific classes. All of mankind who have not the seal of God on their foreheads will be tormented five months by the locusts, under the fifth trumpet (9:5). Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet will be tormented (20:10). The fumes of the torment of those here spoken of last for the eons of the eons. These are the supreme sinners of mankind, hence shall be tormented until they die (16:2,8-9, 18:8), some of them by the blade (19:21).
13 "Happy are the dead who are dying in the Lord henceforth" can only be applied to this particular crisis. The reason is clear. No one, unless especially protected by God, can remain true to Him when they cannot buy or sell, or have any intercourse with their fellow men unless they have the emblem of the wild beast. It will mean certain death to accept the eonian evangel and worship the Creator." (Concordant Commentary pg.397-Revelation 14:8-13)
"Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we. (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (1 Corinthians 15:18-28)
"18 The state of the dead, apart from resurrection, is not one of ecstatic bliss, but of destruction.
20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.
21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.
22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (1Thes.4:16; 1Cor.15:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.
25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.
27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.
28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all." (Concordant Commentary pg.263-1 Corinthians 15:18-28)
Thanks Bro Tom
Amazing , I can understand better now , as you brought both out !! :thumbsup:
Lots to glean from the process !
:HeartThrob:
I agree. The word of God is "Amazing!"
1 Peter 2:9
You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praise of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light
So the question is, if God is the light, and his presence is everywhere, why was there a problem with being in the darkness, rather than the light? If God is everywhere (which I agree with) why wasn't everyone already in the light?
Quote from: Seth on October 05, 2014, 08:50:55 PM
1 Peter 2:9
You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praise of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light
So the question is, if God is the light, and his presence is everywhere, why was there a problem with being in the darkness, rather than the light? If God is everywhere (which I agree with) why wasn't everyone already in the light?
For me , I BELIEVE this is the dark tomb , of their hearts yet to be broken and revealed to them Bro Seth ... It is something they posses but its hidden in the earth , there in the tombs of their dark hearts is the Light of God yet to be seen and known making the Spirit of prophecy a more urgent need that all would prophecy Paul desires this Gift to all men everywhere in all times ...
Ecc 3 Hard work
9 What do workers gain from all their hard work? 10 I have observed the task that God has given human beings. 11 God has made everything fitting in its time, but has also placed eternity in their hearts, without enabling them to discover what God has done from beginning to end.
For me again its the new creatures in Christ whose seed in planted in their hearts by God is taken root and growing in truth and grace and into all things pertaining to Christ and the Glory of God without end
Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2014, 08:59:49 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 05, 2014, 08:50:55 PM
1 Peter 2:9
You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praise of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light
So the question is, if God is the light, and his presence is everywhere, why was there a problem with being in the darkness, rather than the light? If God is everywhere (which I agree with) why wasn't everyone already in the light?
For me , I BELIEVE this is the dark tomb , of their hearts yet to be broken and revealed to them Bro Seth ... It is something they posses but its hidden in the earth , there in the tombs of their dark hearts is the Light of God yet to be seen and known making the Spirit of prophecy a more urgent need that all would prophecy Paul desires this Gift to all men everywhere in all times ...
Ecc 3 Hard work
9 What do workers gain from all their hard work? 10 I have observed the task that God has given human beings. 11 God has made everything fitting in its time, but has also placed eternity in their hearts, without enabling them to discover what God has done from beginning to end.
For me again its the new creatures in Christ whose seed in planted in their hearts by God is taken root and growing in truth and grace and into all things pertaining to Christ and the Glory of God without end
I agree with how you see that. It would suggest to me that when Jesus says "Depart from me ye who work iniquity" that such a thing does not contradict the fact that Christ is everywhere. And to be departed from Christ does not mean that Christ is not everywhere, but has a specific meaning regarding the spiritual state of those being judged.
Quote from: Seth on October 05, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2014, 08:59:49 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 05, 2014, 08:50:55 PM
1 Peter 2:9
You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praise of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light
So the question is, if God is the light, and his presence is everywhere, why was there a problem with being in the darkness, rather than the light? If God is everywhere (which I agree with) why wasn't everyone already in the light?
For me , I BELIEVE this is the dark tomb , of their hearts yet to be broken and revealed to them Bro Seth ... It is something they posses but its hidden in the earth , there in the tombs of their dark hearts is the Light of God yet to be seen and known making the Spirit of prophecy a more urgent need that all would prophecy Paul desires this Gift to all men everywhere in all times ...
Ecc 3 Hard work
9 What do workers gain from all their hard work? 10 I have observed the task that God has given human beings. 11 God has made everything fitting in its time, but has also placed eternity in their hearts, without enabling them to discover what God has done from beginning to end.
For me again its the new creatures in Christ whose seed in planted in their hearts by God is taken root and growing in truth and grace and into all things pertaining to Christ and the Glory of God without end
I agree with how you see that. It would suggest to me that when Jesus says "Depart from me ye who work iniquity" that such a thing does not contradict the fact that Christ is everywhere. And to be departed from Christ does not mean that Christ is not everywhere, but has a specific meaning regarding the spiritual state of those being judged.
:thumbsup:
Yes we too were once in the same boat and now we desire like Paul all men everywhere to repent and be saved !
Acts 17 Paul Before the Areopagus
22And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, 'Men, Athenians,
in all things I perceive you as over-religious; 23for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God — unknown; whom, therefore — not knowing — ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
24'God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
25neither by the hands of men is He served — needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
26He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth — having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings —
27
to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, — though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
28for
in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring. 29'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
30t
he times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
31because
He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'32And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, 'We will hear thee again concerning this;' 33and so Paul went forth from the midst of them, 34and certain men having cleaved to him, did believe, among whom [is] also Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman, by name Damaris, and others with them.
Quote from: Seth on October 05, 2014, 08:50:55 PM
1 Peter 2:9
You are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praise of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light
So the question is, if God is the light, and his presence is everywhere, why was there a problem with being in the darkness, rather than the light? If God is everywhere (which I agree with) why wasn't everyone already in the light?
"Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing, in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them." (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 05, 2014, 11:45:34 AM
Although most will not, or are not able to, learn the languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, with the tools we have today, it is still possible for almost anyone to check any translation they use with those source texts to verify what is written. That such is needed can be seen by examining how even the insertion of one word that does not belong can totally alter the meaning of the text.
One example can be found in Paul's letter to the Thessalonian believers, where he writes concerning those who do not know God and do not obey the good news:
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
The text seems straightforward enough. What I want you to focus on is where this punishment is taking place.
According to this translation, it is 'away from the Lord's presence and glory', which puts the image in our minds of His presence and glory being in one place, and their punishment taking place in another place away from it.
When you check the text though, as I did in my Aramaic (and most here would in their Greek) there is no preposition APO in the Greek, indicating that this would be AWAY from his presence. And then, in my Aramaic, there is no word מעל, literally, 'from on', which would need to be there to express the concept 'away from'.
The text actually says:
(2Th 1:9) For these will be recompensed with the judgment of eternal destruction, from the presence of Maran, and from the glory of his power;
The 'from' (מן) before the words 'presence' and 'glory' are telling us WHERE the judgment is coming from, which is the exact opposite of what the text says when you add the word 'away' to it. In other words, the judgment of destruction is coming FROM his presence and glory, NOT away from it. His presence and glory are the cause of this destruction, which is what the eastern churches have always maintained, since they reject the Greek idea of dualism.
That would be my understanding.. I was reading today the verse about "as it was in the days of Noah" and thought of all the folks who perished back then.. thinking about the resurrection that occurs a thousand years after the first one.. (Rev 20) and allll the people that will consist of.. many who never heard of Jesus or had opportunity or space to repent.. yet will find their selves resurrected from their graves and in God's Holy Presence.. I think there will be much weeping.. (and I cannot accept the idea of their rising and simply tossed to a lake of fire.. I think there is more time involved, for one thing.. a time of some serious serving the Lord by the elect.. I think there are clues in the ancient Autumn Holy Days as representative of the three major peaks of our Lord's 2nd advent..
I believe this because the ancient Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by His 1st advent.. (Passover - Unleavened Bread - Firstfruit -
[autumn - trumpets, day of atonement (arrive doa?) - tabernacles - rev 21:3? - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21%3A3&version=YLT ]
Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
wow, Ronen and Tom is this the same in the presence of the Lamb ? Rev 14 :10 ?
Yes, I believe the Thessalonian passage and this one in Revelation are thematically connected, where the grammar in Thessalonians has to do with 'from what source', while this one in Revelation has to do with 'from what location'.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 06, 2014, 01:24:18 AM
Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
wow, Ronen and Tom is this the same in the presence of the Lamb ? Rev 14 :10 ?
Yes, I believe the Thessalonian passage and this one in Revelation are thematically connected, where the grammar in Thessalonians has to do with 'from what source', while this one in Revelation has to do with 'from what location'.
Ronen
Wow ! Thanks so much Bro R !! I love it !! :Peace2: