Are there more scriptures that suggest God imputed Grace over all mankind already(Romans 5), or that there will be a period of judgement for the unsaved in the afterlife?(Matt. 25:46) Interesting to me that Matt. 25:46 comes after a series of parables about God's rewards and jucgement. Could this verse be metaphoric also? No mention of confession or sinner's prayer, just the righteous being separated from the wicked....
What do you think?
My thought is that Grace is misunderstood in Christian theology. Grace comes from "charis" or favor. When a parent punishes a child for what they do, has favor been withdrawn? No, the punishment is designed to produce favorable effects.. however, Grace can be contrasted with Law because the Law had punishments which were not designed for betterment. So in Titus 2:11-12 (I think probably the most ignored scripture in the Bible about Grace) we have Grace chastening man toward morality, thus saving him from immortality. I think it's a misunderstanding when Chrstian theology places Grace as an opposite to chastening. Despise thou not the chastening of the Lord.
We.receive Grace when we believe, to the forgiveness of sins that are past, and toward the production of righteousness through the process of sanctification.
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2016, 10:29:50 PM
We.receive Grace when we believe, to the forgiveness of sins that are past, and toward the production of righteousness through the process of sanctification.
:thumbsup:
With great power, the apostles continued to give their testimony about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And abundant grace was upon them all.
Quote from: James Zimmerman on July 01, 2016, 10:09:53 PM
Are there more scriptures that suggest God imputed Grace over all mankind already(Romans 5), or that there will be a period of judgement for the unsaved in the afterlife?(Matt. 25:46) Interesting to me that Matt. 25:46 comes after a series of parables about God's rewards and jucgement. Could this verse be metaphoric also? No mention of confession or sinner's prayer, just the righteous being separated from the wicked....
What do you think?
Just as light was separated from the darkness (Day One) so shall the righteous be separated from the wicked (including thought), but first the light must appear before it can be separated, the light that appears is the Holy Spirit convincing you (which .. to convince is the definition of faith) that you are righteous
Faith (being convinced) comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (the Spirit of Christ/Spirit of the Word)
Always ask, am I being convinced by men or by the Spirit of God that I am righteous? Was not righteousness imputed upon us by the finished work of Christ at the cross? Is not that imputing a work of grace upon us?
We are all saved,(calling the things that are not [by our own thought/flesh] as though they are [by the Spirit]) it is just that the majority of mankind have not been convinced of it yet.
What are we being saved from? Our own ignorance of the truth, our own ignorance of not believing that IT IS FINISHED, of not being convinced (having faith) that IT IS FINISHED.
Their unbelief does not nullify the faithfulness of God,
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2016, 10:45:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2016, 10:29:50 PM
We.receive Grace when we believe, to the forgiveness of sins that are past, and toward the production of righteousness through the process of sanctification.
:thumbsup:
With great power, the apostles continued to give their testimony about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And abundant grace was upon them all.
:thumbsup:
:friendstu:
Just thinking about grace.....
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph. 2:8–9).
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Grace, simultaneously with Love, is probably the strongest argument for UR.
So then, how does faith lead into grace, and thus lead into salvation.
In Romans 10 we are told:
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. 3Because they were ignorant of God's righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the Law, in order to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.
5For concerning the righteousness that is by the Law, Moses writes: "The man who does these things will live by them."a 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'b (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or, 'Who will descend into the abyss?'c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,"d that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
11It is just as the Scripture says: "Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame."e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."f
14How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those whog bring good news!"
It seems then, that faith is passed from one person to another, by spreading the Word, and grace is an outcome of faith. I want to add though, that the Holy Spirit must open our eyes to faith. Being 'dead' in our sin, we cannot of our own come to faith, without the Holy Spirit. My belief. Sorry I left this out, in my initial presentation. So, that leads into this Bible verse, from John:1:
14The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, "This is He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me, because He was before me.'"
16From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.
So, Jesus is the Word of God. All who belong to Him, spread the Word, because He is the Word.
So, let's go back to one of the verses eaglesway used in this thread:
32The congregation of believers was one in heart and soul. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they owned. 33[b]With great power, the apostles continued to give their testimony about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And abundant grace was upon them all.[/b]
So, this leads us back, full circle, to the original Bible verse I mentioned above:
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses.It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.[/color]
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8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.[/b]
So, in the coming ages, God will display His kindness to us, in Christ Jesus. Through.....you guessed it.....grace!!!!!!!!!! :dsunny:
Now, I hope you all understand what I wrote, because, to be honest, I don't even know where this all came from tonight. Hoping it was the Holy Spirit, because I had no idea where I was going with this, when I started, and somebody just lead me through this. Now, you would realize how revolutionary it is for me to say this, if you knew my journey, and where I came from, in my faith walk.
But, to God be the praise! :dunno2:
D.
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2016, 05:29:32 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2016, 10:45:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2016, 10:29:50 PM
We.receive Grace when we believe, to the forgiveness of sins that are past, and toward the production of righteousness through the process of sanctification.
:thumbsup:
With great power, the apostles continued to give their testimony about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And abundant grace was upon them all.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: Dandelion on July 02, 2016, 06:59:57 AM
Now, I hope you all understand what I wrote, because, to be honest, I don't even know where this all came from tonight. Hoping it was the Holy Spirit, because I had no idea where I was going with this, when I started, and somebody just lead me through this. Now, you would realize how revolutionary it is for me to say this, if you knew my journey, and where I came from, in my faith walk.
But, to God be the praise! :dunno2:
D.
:happyclap: Sweet!
Quote from: James Zimmerman on July 01, 2016, 10:09:53 PM
Are there more scriptures that suggest God imputed Grace over all mankind already(Romans 5), or that there will be a period of judgement for the unsaved in the afterlife?(Matt. 25:46) Interesting to me that Matt. 25:46 comes after a series of parables about God's rewards and jucgement. Could this verse be metaphoric also? No mention of confession or sinner's prayer, just the righteous being separated from the wicked....
What do you think?
Here's what I think :o)
I believe God has imputed grace towards all mankind. That grace, however, is stored in a vast reserve, like a lake fed from an underground spring flowing from the greatest aquifer beneath the earth. That lake feeds a river that flows through a protected and beautiful land.
One must drink from the water to receive the effect of it. One must dwell in the land to maintain the benefit of it. God is faithful, and eventually every single soul will come in from the wilderness not only to drink that living water, but also to be immersed in it. They will bow the knee, and confess with their mouth the Lordship of Jesus, and enter through the narrow gate.
This is what I believe the scriptures teach, but in the confusion among men as to whether on is "saved already" or "not saved if they do not believe"...... the discussion is just about always addressed through the ET paradigm- which was always false.
Salvation is not primarily about judgment. It is about receiving the new creation.
The word saved means "delivered, healed, made whole, restored". Look it up anywhere that is what you find.
We are not "delivered, healed, made whole, restored" until we have become a new creature in Christ.
It is the kind intention of the one who "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will" that God will be ALL IN ALL.
It is finished. Christ has done the work. But no one may enter but through the veil of His flesh, and the cleansing of His blood.
Eventually the the "whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God"(ro 8)
This means all will become new creatures, All will drink freely from the water of life, ALL will be made new- this is what Jesus is doing now by the Spirit and it is what He will be doing until "all are gathered into one in Christ Jesus".
But only those who are "new creatures in Christ" have entered that glorious liberty.
We who are "saved' are helping in this already as forerunners, sharing in the sufferings of Christ as disciples.
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God." Ro 8
We can suffer with Him because we are "delivered, healed, made whole, restored". We have received eternal life, we are set free from the fear of death, we are new creatures, we hope in resurrection so we testify boldly.
Those who have not "tasted and seen that the Lord is good" are still bound in futility. They are still bound by the fear of death. They still serve the gods of this world under their own lordship. They are not yet "delivered, healed, made whole, restored".
They are not yet saved.
They all will be- "each in his own order", in the appointed time, in the "olam" of the world ages to come. But as yet
they are not saved and as Paul put it somwhere(paraphrase), "for this reason we risk our lives to publish the gospel."
It is the gospel that is overturning the present cosmos and breaking down the "stoicheon"(foundations) of this age in order to make way in the ages to come, "a new heavens and a new earth."
In my opinion- all those universalists that teach that all mankind is already saved and that issues of sin, rebellion and unrighteousness are no longer in force for anyone are deceived, and spreading a false gospel.....
They have ignored the basic language of the scripture
just as much as any ETr or legalist - just in the other polar direction.
The scriptures are not clear about the judgment to come, in terms of detail- but they are clear that there will be serious consequences, in measures and in degrees, for those who resist the gospel, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness- and
also for those who hold the gospel without love, in hypocrisy.
"Depart from me you lawless ones"- these were those who thought they knew Him, having signs and wonders and knowledge and prophecy- but had no practical love.
Therefore Peter exhorted them all on Pentecost, "Be saved from this perverse generation"- and he was including the Pharisees and Saducees and all the authorities and politicians and religionists in that exhortation, to escape- to become "new creatures in Christ", to become a "kind of first fruits of His creation"- because, also quoting Peter, "Judgment(discernment/tribunal/accountability) begins first, at Jerusalem, with the elders in the house of God.".....and...."We are looking for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness."
It is the gospel that is remaking the cosmos, destroying the worls of the devil, breaking down the "stoicheion" of this present evil age, burning up the "elementary principles" of the earth and abolishing "all rule, power and authority" as Christ ascends over all.
Only the "saved" may bring that gospel, and that is why we suffer at the hands of those who are intent on "maintaining" the current regimes.
Someone could ask, "If all will be saved why should I risk my welfare to spread the gospel".
It is because that is why you were saved. Made separate.Holy. Culled out of the world as a first fruit to Christ- disciples laying down their lives to overturn the bondage and destruction of this present evil age.
The first fruits shall be holy unto the Lord. Called, chosen, predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Saved.
Thanks to you all! Looks like I have plenty to study and think about. I like the metaphor about Grace being like a river. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, right? Jesus said in John 3,"Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness."
I know that those who reject God and His ways face destruction. My curiosity was whether or not there is a purgatory type of period for the wicked, or if atonement will be extended immediately. I'm not Catholic, but you know what I mean. A period of refinement through the fire, etc. Thanks again for the help and responses! You guys are the best! God bless you and happy 4th of July everyone!
I love the illustration of being a dad having to correct a child;
Have to point out what was done wrongly- the consequences/side-effects of that error- the penalty which is required to correct that error- the restitution of costs inflicted by that error/sin. As a parent the grace is always there since the child does not lose their position in the family- just doesn't enjoy the discipline at the time. So the awareness develops as the child grows and this can be pointed out to them with deeper and deeper understanding. The child needs the security of their position knowing that the love for them as an individual is greater than their fault/sin/error. The grace was always imputed, but not received or grasped until explained.
Our Father is beyond our current level of understanding and ability.
To appreciate the price paid for our sins/mistakes there is a need for the mistakes to be clarified first, then the cost stated; then the acknowledgement that Christ has paid all the penalties for our mistakes.
And the greatest news, for me, is that this time of learning was planned before the world came into being.
Quote from: James Zimmerman on July 01, 2016, 10:09:53 PM
Are there more scriptures that suggest God imputed Grace over all mankind already(Romans 5), or that there will be a period of judgement for the unsaved in the afterlife?(Matt. 25:46) Interesting to me that Matt. 25:46 comes after a series of parables about God's rewards and jucgement. Could this verse be metaphoric also? No mention of confession or sinner's prayer, just the righteous being separated from the wicked....
What do you think?
hello! and welcome to tentmaker forum :hiya:
I think of the separation of the goats and sheep / tares and wheat as the elect gathered at Jesus' return (Mt 24:28-31) who then enter "the millennium" of Jesus' rule upon earth :banana: And the tares - which are mentioned first - as being gathered to Armageddon, "to be burned", Armageddon being a prominent/peak crashing and burning.. then they will enter 'day' of judgment via the "2nd resurrection"
Revelation 20:5-6 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
........
the rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years are ended.. At which time commences the Great White Throne Judgment, what is called Judgment 'Day'..
from Revelation 20:11,12 - And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away.. and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God..
One of the meanings of "grace' to me, is "unearned favor" which I think of as His Spirit graced upon us.. To the day when we "put on incorruptibility" and totally shed our imperfection; and "put on immortality".. But forever it is all totally "unearned".. He, being the "all in all", and the love which overflows..
I believe the only reason there is tares, instead of all coming to the faith during this lifetime, is for the sake of magnifying Him, that all may know He is God! And to thoroughly prove, and engrave upon every heart and mind, what is good from evil, or that is, what is life, from what is not.. (life from death). That this life is apocalypse, the unveiling/proving that what is not built upon and in Him cannot stand, remain, endure..
"so that man may know that I (Yahweh) am God" ...not all of us a bunch of mini gods deciding good from evil, etc.. Proving the futility of all that, which is basically what we have now.. (man having been endowed w/ thinking ability which includes the ability to make choices.. and the letting it run its course. "Experience" being said to be the best teacher, not biblical (that I know of) but I believe to be true, since we are all living through this. (This learning of good from evil.)
I believe Jesus' 1st advent fulfilled (and was prophesied by) the spring holy days, therefor it's my belief the ancient fall holy days of Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles are a shadow of his long 2nd advent and the 3 main peaks of.. (being the [1]-world's judgment/
consequences and results, and His return and millennium - [2]-'day' of judgment - and then [3]-when God becomes all in all and will then "tabernacle with man upon Earth, made new"..
Between Trumpets and Day of Atonement is 10 days - between His return/trumpets and 'Day' of Judgment, 1000 years; between Day of Atonement/Reconciliation (Israel's annual collective day of repentance and reconciliation) and Tabernacles is 5 days.. Suggesting, to me anyway, that Judgment 'day' will last roughly 500 years - plenty of time for the not yet saved during this lifetime, to repent and be reconciled to Yahweh, and by "believing" have their names written in the Book of Life.. (I know He fulfilled the ancient Spring holy days, Passover/was the Passover Lamb, was the Unleavened Bread, and the Firstfruits - his first advent.. (and Pentecost, the coming of the HS) so why wouldn't the fall feasts be a shadow of his 2nd advent? :gsmile: :2c:
P.S. - great post D. :thumbsup: :dsunny: and other's too..
Quote from: James Zimmerman on July 01, 2016, 10:09:53 PM
Are there more scriptures that suggest God imputed Grace over all mankind already(Romans 5), or that there will be a period of judgement for the unsaved in the afterlife?(Matt. 25:46) Interesting to me that Matt. 25:46 comes after a series of parables about God's rewards and jucgement. Could this verse be metaphoric also? No mention of confession or sinner's prayer, just the righteous being separated from the wicked....
What do you think?
Phil 2:9-11 says that everyknee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Eph 1:9-11 says that he has revealed to us the mystery of His will.... the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or on earth.
There could be some question left in someone's mind as per Matt 25:46- if not for this verse(there are others but this clinches it for me).
For
as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.Three things are made clear here.
1) All will be made alive in Christ just the same as all died in Adam.
2)Whatever form of subjection one endures before they bow the knee to Jesus Christ- whether in this age or the next- after all the adversaries are subjected to Jesus they will be returned to the Father so that God may be all in all(including said adversaries).
3) If death is done away with as the last adversary- then their can be NO MORE DEATH. NO MORE DEAD... ALL WILL BE ALIVE and GOD will be all in all.
The second death, and the "aionian kolassis" and "aionian pyr"- whether or not they are the same thing- cannot endure forever, or God would never be all in all and DEATH WOULD NEVER BE SUBJECTED which would mean THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THE DEAD.
This would break the scriptures and as our Lord says- "The scriptures cannot be broken"..... this is why He says to the Pharisees, "You kno neither the scriptures or the power of God."
The same can be said today, to thse who believe death has no end, and sin will never relent in the heart of sinners in torment for eternity.