Tentmaker Forum

I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

I don't belive in afterlife because it doesn't make sense and it doesn't match up in the bible but yet YET some people around the world seen their's mom and dad, or someone who died came back with alot love

hard to tell, just like around the world seen UFO



now, how come I did not seen this, and but I did saw a fast moving zip-zag UFO that came out of the water in the lake of chicago city, my friend seen it and about 54 witness, I bet some militry did.

I take it you're an atheist.

Howdy all,
Crossover, i don't believe we live on after we die, the scriptures in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 make that pretty clear to me.i have read many an article during my last 4 or so years after learning about UR, for me this article kinda put the piece of the puzzle that made the picture clear enough for me to say, that when this life is over our only hope is in the ressurection promised by God and His Son. The only time immortality is mentioned in scriptures it refers to God being the only one who has immortality.
Here is that link if any would like to check it out:   http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm.         
                   It has a lot of good info in it. That being said i have found that i don't find all truths from one source, as i believe that we are given revelation  in Gods' time.

                   There's an article that comes from L. Ray Smith that i found to be somewhat comforting with the knowledge that God, in his infinite wisdom has a system to keep me until the ressurection, again if you would like here is the link to that article:
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

                                   Henry

 :cloud9: Crossover, I don't know if there's any one "doctrine" preached on that here or not. There are many differing views held by all of us posters, as all are free to interject. You might check the main page. Blessings....

Quotebut I did saw a fast moving zip-zag UFO that came out of the water in the lake of chicago city, my friend seen it and about 54 witness,

You saw a ufo coming out of a lake? :mshock:

What did it look like? You're not the first person I've heard describe something like that.

Oh.  I believe in immediate life after death, that is, we don't die, although some might be asleep.

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 02, 2009, 10:45:38 PM
I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

Who is in Heaven? (John 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

What does Paul tell us?  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

And Peter? 2Pe 3:3  Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4  and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

These words were written decades after Jesus' death and resurrection.... So looks like we stay dead until the resurrection.    :2c: 

Paul

But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise.  Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.  Please clarify your position further.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;



John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.


Psa 23
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Paul seems to think we can go to Paradise in this body or that we can exist as a spirit apart from a body, "out of the body" and experience functions wrongly assumed to be limited to the body, like hearing or seeing.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (CLV) . . .
1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions (visions-KJV) and revelations of the Lord.
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.

There's more Scripture for understanding it this way than there's time for here.  When Ecclesiates says, "The dead know nothing.  They go down in silence." it is enough to fulfill it by going up to a corpse in a casket and yelling at him, slapping him even and you'll find he doesn't know it and remains silent.  Yet the Word speaks of the spirit of man going up, whereas the spirit of a beast goes down.  (Please don't ask me to get references at this late moment.)

I don't have time to detail that doctrine here; but, I've also experienced various things that make it more according to how I understand Scripture than the so-called "soul sleep" doctrine.  This is not "The Immortality of the Soul" doctrine.  "The soul that sins it shall die" is the word of God.  However, I believe  it is possible the spirit may experience times of sleep when apart from the body that's dead.

1 Peter 3:17-22 (CLV) . . .
17 For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil,
18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.

1 Peter 4:5-6 (CLV) . . .
5 who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.
6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

How could God judge the dead if they are not.  If you say he will raise them to judgment then they are alive and he wouldn't be judging the dead.  Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead according to Scripture.

What I think is an important point is that in order to believe in the salvation of all the only change a person needs to make, regardless of other possible variations in theology, is to understand that your destiny is not sealed by death.  God continues to work with the spirit.  How bad off would many who have followed Him in life if they were raised immortal in no better spiritual condition than what they were when they died?

Nevertheless, I don't care much if people who love God think differently on this, as many do.  What I agree with from their perspective is that if being a spirit apart from the body means we experience everything just as if we were alive then it would be very hard to provide a reason for the resurrection.  That is exactly what many have concluded.  When you die you are spirit immediately, which is the resurrection body.  That is getting too far from what I understand happened to Jesus and the expectation that He, "...will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:20, CLV)

I think it has to do with manifesting in the physical, psychical and spiritual dimensions.  We are our bodies and we are our spirits, both of which have substance.  It doesn't seem that the soul has substance, but it is in the mid heaven.  We exist in 3 dimensions, hence the mention of the 3rd heaven in 2 Cor 12.  I think it is the influence of Greek mysticism that caused the Institutional Church to take up the idea that we are spirits that have bodies, that the body isn't the real man.  Seeing ourselves as multi-dimensional wholes is more Biblical.

All of this could be elaborated upon in book length discussions.

Your friend, James Rohde

P.S.  Too many think they know what happens when we die based on nothing they've experienced, only what they heard others say.  I know for a fact that God will bring the seeking soul a lot more light than that.

willieH: Hi CM... :hithere:

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 02, 2009, 10:45:38 PM
I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

Before men enter TIME (prior to birth), they have nothing to do with it... and after men leave TIME (at death)... again, they have nothing to do with it...

Time is as meaningless to the most current man who has entered DEATH... as it is to ADAM...

In other words, ADAM has spent as much "TIME" ...waiting... for the resurrection, as has the last man who has just died... NONE!  :grin:

The "soul sleep" issue implies that men "spend time" in the state of DEATH in the Grave... because of the word "SLEEP"...  and because it is the experience of men IN TIME, that SLEEP is a duration of TIME...

The state of DEATH is a "sleep" that is not concerned with, or measured by, TIME...

...peace...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief  that he would be with him in Paradise. 

It remains to be seen if their is a contradiction. The Greek source text has no interpuntion.
a] No interpunction like in the original Greek.
b] This states the thief will be in heaven today.
c] This should be read like: Right now I'm telling you, ......

a] And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
c] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 02:04:46 AM
I take it you're an atheist.

i'll help out here...i know ID enough to know he's not an atheist, and I'm confident what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in conscious activity after death PRIOR to the resurrection...I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by 'afterlife'....

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2009, 07:50:02 AM

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief  that he would be with him in Paradise. 

It remains to be seen if their is a contradiction. The Greek source text has no interpuntion.
a] No interpunction like in the original Greek.
b] This states the thief will be in heaven today.
c] This should be read like: Right now I'm telling you, ......

a] And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
c] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Hey WW...back to our The Christian Bible (1991)...one of the most literal to the early Greek manuscripts;

Then He said to him, "Amen [truly], I say to you today, you  will be with Me in Paradise" [the new (third) earth of the Last Age (Rev. 21:1-22:2).

Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2009, 09:34:26 AM

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 02:04:46 AM
I take it you're an atheist.

i'll help out here...i know ID enough to know he's not an atheist, and I'm confident what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in conscious activity after death PRIOR to the resurrection...I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by 'afterlife'....

I was about to post but after reading this, thank for helping out when I am not around, I am a  believer and love God so much, but afterlife doesn't make sense to me because that defeat jesus's death on the cross purpose and for nothing.

How would an afterlife defeat Jesus' purpose on the Cross?  Do you not believe 1John when it says in a couple of places that we have passed from death to life and that we have eonian life right now?

I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.

I think it is interesting/awesom that those "who believe shall never die", and those "who love have passed from death to life";

why then would that life be shut off at the end of their physical life? 

Our spirit testifies with His Spirit that we are sons of God,

and the spirit returns to the Lord at death. 

Sounds to me like our spirit lives on. 

jmo

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Quote from: sven on April 03, 2009, 02:50:48 PM
I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.

For me personally it's clear. The dead are dead until resurrection. They are resurrected after the 1000 year reign (I hope I got that right)
I think all on TM agree on that point.
The different views on TM are that some think the 1000 year period is in the future.
Some believe it is, or can be right now. People turning to Christ die in their old life and are now resurrected (in Jesus)
I hope I summarized that correctly.

It's ok by me that people view the Rich man parable differently and read the cross verse as that thief being right now in heaven. BUT then they also need a good explanation on the then contradicting verse that noone but Jesus has acendent.
It wrong to rebuke a verse with another verse. If you/me can't align all relevant verse then either there is lack of understanding, translation error or God made some mistakes when inspiring the Bible. Somehow I think noone will opt the last option.

Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2009, 09:40:54 AM
Hey WW...back to our The Christian Bible (1991)...one of the most literal to the early Greek manuscripts;

Rub the salt into the open wound.  :thumbdown:
Well salt is good  :thumbsup:

Just kidding buddy. :friendstu:
Got hold of  crate of golden Bibles?

Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 11:50:14 AM
How would an afterlife defeat Jesus' purpose on the Cross?  Do you not believe 1John when it says in a couple of places that we have passed from death to life and that we have eonian life right now?

Wasn't part of the purpose of the cross that the dead will be resurrected at some point in time?
That part would be defeated if billions of people before Jesus already are resurrected.
It would also make the resurrection of Jesus less special because He wasn't the first.

Quote from: sven on April 03, 2009, 02:50:48 PM
I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CLV) . . .
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.


1 Peter 3:18-20 (CLV) . . .
18 ...being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah

1 Peter 4:6 (CLV) . . .
6 ...for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

I quoted these verses more fully above.  I also said:  "Paul seems to think we can go to Paradise in this body or that we can exist as a spirit apart from a body, 'out of the body' and experience functions wrongly assumed to be limited to the body, like hearing or seeing."  Existing as a spirit apart from a body is not "immortality of the soul."  Jesus says that if you try to save your soul (thought, will and emotions) you will lose it; but, if you destroy your soul for the sake of Jesus and the gospel you will be obtaining your soul.

Jesus was not in a Paradisical "heaven" when in death he preached to the spirits of those from Noah's day because they were in "prison."

Also, as I said above, the idea our condition in death is the same as if we were alive would leave us with no reason for the resurrection.  While it may seem that way to us, though I don't fully know, the aim is to have expression in the realm of quickened, made alive, vivified spirit, in the dimension of the psyche or soul, and as a body in the physical dimension (and in Jesus even beyond).  This 3 dimensions is often overlooked. 

 :cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

The re-union of the soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, typified by the first set of curtains or veil the priest had to walk thru,. In the temple there was a river that ran underground (out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water) that the priests were to use to carry off the blood from sacrifices. The life is in the blood; this blood in us spiritually speaking, is our soul. This is why it says out of the HEART OF MAN cometh fornications, idolatries, ect. We're saved in order; spirit, SOUL and body. Blessings....

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.

I assume this is the verse you reffer to:
Mark 12:27   He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
A few verses earlier:
Mark 12:18   Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

So Jesus is just saying there will be resurrection. But I see no mentioning of immediate resurrection.
Between those 2 verses there is an example of remarriage.
Mark 12:23  In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, ....
Mark 12:25  For when they shall rise  from the dead....

To me the verses speak about ressurrection but not instantly. Stickly speaking resurrection can't even exist if you see death as steping through a door from this world to heaven. To resurrect someone he/she has to be dead.
Even Jesus was dead for a few days.

And:
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Some stay dead, at least, 1000 years.
It's the first resurrection. Billions of people died since Adam. If they all are in heaven now it would not the 1st resurrection.

Quote from: IceDash on April 03, 2009, 11:45:47 AM

Quote from: jabcat on April 03, 2009, 09:34:26 AM

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 02:04:46 AM
I take it you're an atheist.

i'll help out here...i know ID enough to know he's not an atheist, and I'm confident what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in conscious activity after death PRIOR to the resurrection...I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by 'afterlife'....

I was about to post but after reading this, thank for helping out when I am not around, I am a  believer and love God so much, but afterlife doesn't make sense to me because that defeat jesus's death on the cross purpose and for nothing.

Understood bro...WW, no contact, no Bibles  :sigh:...  I'll keep trying to get you one.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 03, 2009, 11:17:06 PM

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.

I assume this is the verse you reffer to:
Mark 12:27   He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
A few verses earlier:
Mark 12:18   Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

So Jesus is just saying there will be resurrection. But I see no mentioning of immediate resurrection.
Between those 2 verses there is an example of remarriage.
Mark 12:23  In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, ....
Mark 12:25  For when they shall rise  from the dead....

To me the verses speak about ressurrection but not instantly. Stickly speaking resurrection can't even exist if you see death as steping through a door from this world to heaven. To resurrect someone he/she has to be dead.
Even Jesus was dead for a few days.

And:
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Some stay dead, at least, 1000 years.
It's the first resurrection. Billions of people died since Adam. If they all are in heaven now it would not the 1st resurrection.

18The Sadducees did not believe that people would rise to life after death. So some of them came to Jesus and said:

    19Teacher, Moses wrote that if a married man dies and has no children, his brother should marry the widow. Their first son would then be thought of as the son of the dead brother. 20There were once seven brothers. The first one married, but died without having any children. 21The second brother married his brother's widow, and he also died without having children. The same thing happened to the third brother, 22and finally to all seven brothers. At last the woman died. 23When God raises people from death, whose wife will this woman be? After all, she had been married to all seven brothers.

    24Jesus answered:

   You are completely wrong! You don't know what the Scriptures teach. And you don't know anything about the power of God. 25When God raises people to life, they won't marry. They will be like the angels in heaven. 26You surely know about people being raised to life. You know that in the story about Moses and the burning bush, God said, "I am the God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."  27He isn't the God of the dead, but of the living. You Sadducees are all wrong.

--Mark 12



Interesting.  Jesus references Moses at the burning bush where God identified himself as the God [present tense] of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Well, of course, those three were dead when God said that to Moses. But, Jesus is saying here that God is speaking of them as living.   And, Jesus goes on to say that he is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

We do see Moses appear with Christ at the transfiguration.  So,  that says to me that these never 'died.'

He's not the God of the formerly living, but the God of the living.

wow.  Very cool.



6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

--Exodus 3

Quote from: CrossoverManiac on April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise.  Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.  Please clarify your position further.

Many have already discussed the issue on commas and such, so no need for me to address that issue, However, there are other issues as we will see when reading this scripture...

Luk 23:43  And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  


To think that the theif on the cross would be with Jesus in Paradise on this very day overlooks one very important issue.  Jesus was Dead, and Jesus stayed dead for 3 days...

Mat 16:21  From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Mat 17:23  and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

Luk 9:22  saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day."

Luk 24:46  and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Act 10:40  "God raised Him (Jesus) up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Hopefully, you get the picture, Jesus was not in Paradise on the day He spoke those words, as Jesus was DEAD!  

Peace,
Paul

Quote from: martincisneros on April 03, 2009, 11:50:14 AM
How would an afterlife defeat Jesus' purpose on the Cross?  Do you not believe 1John when it says in a couple of places that we have passed from death to life and that we have eonian life right now?

That not what I meant martin, the bible said that we wait for the return of Jesus and also we sleep until the rise of the dead, no one passed into afterlife, there is no afterlife, if it is, there no need for jesus's death on cross if we can rise ourselve, it's doesn't make sense at all.

However, there something I still confused when jesus died on the cross, the ghost who rise in the grave was open and they walk around the holy city the moment Jesus died...hmmmm, who was those ghost?

Quote from: Molly on April 04, 2009, 01:15:19 AM
Interesting.  Jesus references Moses at the burning bush where God identified himself as the God [present tense] of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Well, of course, those three were dead when God said that to Moses. But, Jesus is saying here that God is speaking of them as living.   And, Jesus goes on to say that he is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

We do see Moses appear with Christ at the transfiguration.  So,  that says to me that these never 'died.'

He's not the God of the formerly living, but the God of the living.

I see your point Molly. But I don't agree that it is the only possible interpretation.
I've rewritten this answer several times but just can find a way to put down my exact thoughts on it.
The rough version simply is: God of the living = A God that doesn't let the dead stay dead forever.

Quote from: Pierac on April 04, 2009, 03:27:29 AM
Many have already discussed the issue on commas and such, so no need for me to address that issue, However, there are other issues as we will see when reading this scripture...

Luk 23:43  And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  

To think that the theif on the cross would be with Jesus in Paradise on this very day overlooks one very important issue.  Jesus was Dead, and Jesus stayed dead for 3 days...

Mat 16:21  From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
Hopefully, you get the picture, Jesus was not in Paradise on the day He spoke those words, as Jesus was DEAD!  

Dead for 3 days. I also mentioned that. But you wrote it down much more clearly/convincing :thumbsup:
But there is more!  :laughing7:
According to some Jesus was not just dead but preaching in hell. That would mean even more the opposite.
So unto this point we have Jesus was dead or in hell (I'm not a follower of the hell variation)
Then keep reading and you find:
At dawn:
John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father....

At evening:
John 20:19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, ....
John 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands......

It seems somewhere between those verses (=resurrection day) Jesus ascended.

Quote from: Pierac on April 04, 2009, 03:27:29 AM

Luk 23:43  And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."  

:cloud9: So do you think the comma here should  have been behind today instead?

"Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

The Christian Bible (1991)...one of the most literal to the early Greek manuscripts;

Then He said to him, "Amen [truly], I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise"

 :cloud9: I got it. Makes sense to me.... :thumbsup:

I'm not sure it's right, but wanted to be sure you saw it...I think it may be right...someone, I believe WW, earlier made a good point about Jesus being dead 3 days, yet I believe He proclaimed to those being held captive  :dontknow:.  I think it's s/w confusing.  Have we thought that it could sort of be a mixture of the opposing views?  In that, as far as this life/world, one is dead...but yet scripture states our spirit returns to God...so our spirit's not dead is it?  I tended to think there was a sort of holding place, i.e. 'paradise', awaiting the judgment..I forget what the O.T. calls it...could that be with God, where our spirits are held prior to judgment?   I'm just really not sure how it all fits together... The sermon this morning at my wife's "church" was about heaven (with a quick, "or hell"..wife said, "where'd he read that"?).  Of course he said we're immediately in heaven, but without our glorified bodies, which we don't get until Jesus returns...he said he wasn't sure what type body we had in the meantime, I believe he called it temporary or interim  :dunno2:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


"paradise"
G3857
παράδεισος
paradeisos
par-ad'-i-sos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"): - paradise.



H6508
פּרדּס
pardês
par-dace'
Of foreign origin; a park: - forest, orchard.


Guess what?  If it's Eden we are talking about, the tree of life is there.  And, if the tree of life is there--so is Jesus.

Why does everyone try to put God in a box?

I've been out of my body twice.  But I still had a 'spirit body' during these episodes, and, naturally, also my right mind. :happygrin:

Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2009, 01:27:57 AM
I'm not sure it's right, but wanted to be sure you saw it...I think it may be right...someone, I believe WW, earlier made a good point about Jesus being dead 3 days, yet I believe He proclaimed to those being held captive  :dontknow:. 

Those held captive are in prison. Would you qualify Heaven as prison? The prison, for me can only be 2 things.
Hell or death. Either way it wasn't heaven.
The thief could be in hell with Jesus but then Jesus made a huge mistake just before He died by mixing up heaven and hell.

/edit I'm sure the captive verse is a parble because it conflicts with so many other verses. Might be a good other thread. I'm interested in the meaning of it. ETs see it as proof of before judgement hell. Some say Jesus came and emptied the paradise side (Abrahams bossom) "of death"

If something I said sounded like I meant heaven was prison, that's not what I meant at all.  I just think there are multiple possibilities...maybe 'prison's' even a third option, a sort of holding place...I really don't know.

Sheol is the O.T. place I earlier couldn't think of...this from Wikapedia;  "The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) ... dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, the sheol of the Old Testament .... the good, the wicked awaiting judgment at the resurrection..."

Quote from: jabcat on April 06, 2009, 08:37:53 AM
If something I said sounded like I meant heaven was prison, that's not what I meant at all. 

I'm in no way implying that jabcat.
When you mentioned 'captive' I remembered an article from an ET site that wrote that during the death of Jesus' His spirit was in hell either to preach to the damned (=prisoners) or undergo torture as a payment for our sins.
I tried to show the contrast with heaven. If Jesus wan't really dead He was in hell. And that is completly opposite what He said to the thief.
Either Jesus:
a] Was dead today = lied to the thief because death is no Heaven.
b] Was in hell toady = lied because hell is not heaven. It's the opposite.

I hope this clears things up al little. Today  :happygrin:

Simple, after Jesus died He went several places as a spirit.  There are spirits you know!

One thing I've noticed is that many people think they know what happens in death.  Yet, they're only going on hearsay and a couple of Bble verses.  Traditions of men are not to be trusted.  Scripture is good; but, the whole thing must be in view.  I know God reveals things to those who diligently seek Him.  To keep seeking for mysteries to be revealed and to keep studying to be aware of what is recorded in Scripture:  this should be our manner of life.  Amazing, the intensity of certainty concerning how it is when you die for so many that have no experience or revelation to inform them!

Good points James.

WW, I don't know how to put all this together, bro.  I thought I had a better handle on this before this thread was started  :laughing7:.

Quote from: reFORMer on April 06, 2009, 09:17:34 AM
Simple, after Jesus died He went several places as a spirit.  There are spirits you know!

To keep seeking for mysteries to be revealed and to keep studying to be aware of what is recorded in Scripture:  this should be our manner of life.  Amazing, the intensity of certainty concerning how it is when you die for so many that have no experience or revelation to inform them!

:cloud9: Amen James. But as for me, I DO have experience and revelation to inform me. I was taken there (in spirit) with His Spirit, while awake and in the presence of 4 witnesses/participants, with the end result of one being raised (their soul) out of Sheol. This was NOT what I believed (or the people with me) prior to this experience. God has a way  :mshock: of making our beliefs bow the knee in the face of direct intervention by His Spirit. Blessings...

I don't want to hijack this thread Card, but I have 2 questions maybe you can answer somewhere...or maybe they do fit here in terms of understanding this particular topic...

Earlier somewhere you said you had smelled demons, and they smelt 'burnt'...wondering more about that, especially how it may fit with the thought of us being lowered into this realm, and this possibly being the LoF...

Also, what can you tell us about your experience with Sheol?  What it was like, how does it fit with some of our wonderings in this thread?

Thanks, James.

 :cloud9: Hi James.....He never really gave me anything pertaining to WHY they smell like smoke, but then again I didn't ask, either. The smelling of smoke where there is no smoke is one "tip off" that there is an unholy presence.

The other smell associated with them really stumped me, until someone else told me they smelled it too; when they had to go to the morgue for a relative. When she asked the undertaker what it was, he told her it was the smell of death. I recognized the smell finally as something I had smelled in my childhood.....ether; what dentists used to use. It is sickeningly sweet. I had no idea why they would smell of that, then I read that (pardon me for the graphic explanations) decomposing matter in it's break down process, produces ether. They ARE death.

I have never smelled it, but I have read of people that claim that the Lord's presence to them sometimes had a smell, the smell of roses. Clearly, both of these manifestations, the good and the bad, are spiritually discerned as they are above the abilities our natural senses.

As for Sheol, I shared some of it before. I want to make it plain is NOT like other's descriptions of the "hell" they saw. The soul is trapped in whatever it did not overcome in life in the body, but the spirit returns to the One who sent it. This is the realm that Jesus went to when He was "dead" those 3 days.

If you understand that that too is a pattern of what He is STILL doing, then it follows that He would be interceding in that fashion now also. He said He would do cures and cast out devils for 2 days. Doing "cures" is not just a physical healing manifestation. Healing means at it's essence, to be MADE WHOLE, ie. two parts united, soul and spirit in agreement or covenant.

As He gave me, the RE-union of the soul and spirit IS the first resurrection and the reason why many arose with Him and were seen by many witnesses as it is recorded. When my relative died that I experienced this over, I kept asking the Lord for months, to tell me what happened when we die, no fairy tales. I could not, would not, rest until I had an explanation of something that was shown to me prior to their death. I had no idea the explanation was going to be a "show and tell" type of revelation and involve me being taken in the spirit with Him.

What occurred is that the things that had kept the soul from ascending, like malice, for instance, after repentance came apparently, He used those present to remove the chains that bound. If any have ever read a book by a Dr. Eby who said he was taken into "hell" he said it had stone like walls like a cave. Well, the Lord showed me that what happens is, we descend into our own STONY hearts, and are confronted with what we have given life to, ie. out of the HEART OF MAN proceeds murders, lusts, ect. The Word says we are judged with OUR OWN wickedness, and this is that.

He had mercy on me in that I did not have to see this person's condition in that state, as the shock of it and the grief of seeing it, even for a moment would probably have seriously messed me up. But I descended with Him into it, was aware of that person's thoughts of their heart thru His Spirit and also what had them bound as HE delivered them up out of it.

This happened less than a year after the person died, and I have to wonder if the Jews practice of saying prayers for the dead for up to one year, doesn't have some spiritual significance. At any rate, it is not eternal, but rather a sanctification process that apparently never ends until ALL are brought back into Him. Blessings....

VERY interesting and uplifting.  Thanks!

Sometimes Jesus smells like cedars of Lebanan or myrrh...sometimes like concord grape wine.

 :cloud9: I can see that...... :thumbsup:

I'm feelin' it too!  Stirring up of the gift... 
...the seven locks of Samson's hair...
and, "...like the good oil on the head, descending on the beard, Aaron's beard, which is descending over the slit of his coats." (Ps 133)

 :cloud9: Praise God, rejoicing with you  :thumbsup:  :banana: :egyptdance: :boogie:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

The re-union of the soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, typified by the first set of curtains or veil the priest had to walk thru,. In the temple there was a river that ran underground (out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water) that the priests were to use to carry off the blood from sacrifices. The life is in the blood; this blood in us spiritually speaking, is our soul. This is why it says out of the HEART OF MAN cometh fornications, idolatries, ect. We're saved in order; spirit, SOUL and body. Blessings....

Cardinal, you come through once again  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: You don't know how happy that makes me that someone "heard" that.  :girlheart: Blessings....

Cardinal, can you expand on this part?

Quote...But I descended with Him into it, was aware of that person's thoughts of their heart thru His Spirit and also what had them bound as HE delivered them up out of it.

You experienced/became aware of his deliverance?

@ Cardinal what you wrote reminds me very much on the Jewish view of Ge'Hinnom, punishment lasts up to 12 months, and every sin creates a demon that you meet in Ge'Hinnom, I think later Sheol and Ge'Hinnom became synonyms in Judaism

I think the Jews remember the dead for 11 months, cause only the most evil stay in Ge'Hinnom for the entire 12 months, but thats also an afterbiblical view.

QuoteSheol is the O.T. place I earlier couldn't think of...this from Wikapedia;  "The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) ... dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, the sheol of the Old Testament .... the good, the wicked awaiting judgment at the resurrection..."

this is an afterbiblical view, there is no hint to such thing in the entire Old Testament

Quote from: Zero7 on April 09, 2009, 08:45:21 PM
Cardinal, can you expand on this part?

Quote...But I descended with Him into it, was aware of that person's thoughts of their heart thru His Spirit and also what had them bound as HE delivered them up out of it.

You experienced/became aware of his deliverance?

:cloud9: He took my spirit as one with His Spirit, because the thoughts of the heart (soul) are made manifest to HIM, so as one with His Spirit for that short time, so too did I "know" the thoughts of their heart. The things holding them were named, repentance came, and they were set free to ascend/resurrect up out of the old man of the flesh (He called the Pharisees sepulchers for a reason) .

Flesh to God does not just mean natural flesh like you can touch with your hands, but flesh is that which is "created" (pride of life/that which defines us apart from Christ/pride goeth before a FALL) out the union of the body (lust of the flesh) with the carnal beastly mind (lust of the eyes). Blessings...

Quote from: sven on April 09, 2009, 08:57:04 PM
@ Cardinal what you wrote reminds me very much on the Jewish view of Ge'Hinnom, punishment lasts up to 12 months, and every sin creates a demon that you meet in Ge'Hinnom, I think later Sheol and Ge'Hinnom became synonyms in Judaism

I think the Jews remember the dead for 11 months, cause only the most evil stay in Ge'Hinnom for the entire 12 months, but thats also an afterbiblical view.

QuoteSheol is the O.T. place I earlier couldn't think of...this from Wikapedia;  "The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) ... dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, the sheol of the Old Testament .... the good, the wicked awaiting judgment at the resurrection..."

this is an afterbiblical view, there is no hint to such thing in the entire Old Testament

:cloud9: Well, I didn't get it from the Jews, I was surprised to find out they even believed such a thing. I got from THE "Jew", our Jewish carpenter.  :bigGrin:

And yes, there are things about it in the OTand NT, they are just not understood and/or hidden in plain sight. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2009, 09:07:38 PM

Quote from: sven on April 09, 2009, 08:57:04 PM

QuoteSheol is the O.T. place I earlier couldn't think of...this from Wikapedia;  "The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) ... dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, the sheol of the Old Testament .... the good, the wicked awaiting judgment at the resurrection..."

this is an afterbiblical view, there is no hint to such thing in the entire Old Testament

And yes, there are things about it in the NT, they are just not understood and/or hidden in plain sight. Blessings....

Sven, I don't know, I don't have the complete knowledge and understanding of the whole OT...you may be right  :dontknow:

 :cloud9: Neither do I, but I'm learning.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

"The dead know nothing."
We don't sleep. -> know something
Spirit is in heaven. -> know something
Soul is in purgatory. -> know something

That just doesn't add up.
Please explain s-l-o-w-l-y :laughing7:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2009, 09:32:34 PM
:cloud9: Neither do I, but I'm learning.  :bigGrin:

You are!  I'm saying there's a whole lot there, to know for sure something's NOT there  :happygrin:.

I like your New Testament statement...things hidden in plain sight..isn't that the truth?

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2009, 09:35:56 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

"The dead know nothing."
We don't sleep. -> know something
Spirit is in heaven. -> know something
Soul is in purgatory. -> know something

That just doesn't add up.
Please explain s-l-o-w-l-y :laughing7:

I don't believe in soul sleep. God puts us on ice for awile?
If it is true, well, what happens now when we sleep? We dream. So maybe that is a clue, I don't know.
But that doesnt explain "the dead know nothing"

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2009, 09:35:56 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

"The dead know nothing."
We don't sleep. -> know something
Spirit is in heaven. -> know something
Soul is in purgatory. -> know something

That just doesn't add up.
Please explain s-l-o-w-l-y :laughing7:

:cloud9: There again, it's our understanding that needs adjusting, which is why we can't look at the surface of scriptures only. The dead know nothing, does not mean what it sounds like to our western mindset.

Death, is the separation of the soul from the spirit. We're so focused on what we can perceive with our senses, we think of it as only the spirit separating from the body, but we are a triune being.

Sheol, IS separation from God's Spirit; our spirit is what is NEVER separated from His Spirit, that's why it returns to the One who sent it, ie. nothing can separate us from His love. Our spirit is like a little flame that came off a huge fire, our God is like a consuming fire.

The soul is the mind, will, emotions and desires. The carnal mind is His enemy, it's enmity against God. Therefore, since the spirit of man is what is in communion with the Spirit of God, because the separation known as death has occurred, for this reason, the "dead" know "nothing", ie. except the things which are of them/their own minds, not the things which be of the Spirit. Our wisdom is sensual, from below, and in comparison to God's is as "nothing". Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2009, 09:53:43 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2009, 09:35:56 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

"The dead know nothing."
We don't sleep. -> know something
Spirit is in heaven. -> know something
Soul is in purgatory. -> know something

That just doesn't add up.
Please explain s-l-o-w-l-y :laughing7:

:cloud9: There again, it's our understanding that needs adjusting, which is why we can't look at the surface of scriptures only. The dead know nothing, does not mean what it sounds like to our western mindset.

Death, is the separation of the soul from the spirit. We're so focused on what we can perceive with our senses, we think of it as only the spirit separating from the body, but we are a triune being.

Sheol, IS separation from God's Spirit; our spirit is what is NEVER separated from His Spirit, that's why it returns to the One who sent it, ie. nothing can separate us from His love. Our spirit is like a little flame that came off a huge fire, our God is like a consuming fire.

The soul is the mind, will, emotions and desires. The carnal mind is His enemy, it's enmity against God. Therefore, since the spirit of man is what is in communion with the Spirit of God, because the separation known as death has occurred, for this reason, the "dead" know "nothing", ie. except the things which are of them/their own minds, not the things which be of the Spirit. Our wisdom is sensual, from below, and in comparison to God's is as "nothing". Blessings....

So, I want to understand something... Is our spirit not conscious? In other words, is it only the soul of man that has conscousness?

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2009, 09:35:56 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM
:cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

"The dead know nothing."
We don't sleep. -> know something
Spirit is in heaven. -> know something
Soul is in purgatory. -> know something

That just doesn't add up.
Please explain s-l-o-w-l-y :laughing7:

Don't forget there are also the living dead, as Jesus informed us when he said to let the dead bury their dead.

 :cloud9: Exactly, Molly, good point.  :thumbsup:

Doc; No, they both have a type of "consciousness". The spirit of God that is in us is inspiration, ie. breath that quickens. Quicken means to speed up or give life, but the life that God gives is not just the breath that enlivens the soul (even as the breath of animals/beastly carnal nature), but life that brings understanding, or "knowing".

Our soul is what makes us, us. He consumes it as we offer it on the altar; that's how we're changed from glory (terrestrial) to glory (celestial). As He quickens something to us (that "AHA!" moment) IF we accept whatever it was by changing how we now think (meaning of repentance = change the mind) about whatever it dealt with, it begins the process.

We then have to walk it out in shoe leather (works) for awhile, then after NOT seeing any change with natural eyes (because what is seen is not of faith but what is unseen) either within ourselves or our circumstances for a season, He will then move. The Spirit comes to perform the Word.

So if we stand in faith believing that the Word will not return void but will accomplish what it was sent to (you) to do, then that part of our soul will be translated out of the kingdom of darkness (carnal mind understanding) and into the kingdom of light (mind of Christ).

And because the oil (anointing) runs from the top of the head (mind) downwards (soul then body), this is the principle for healing and deliverance. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on April 10, 2009, 12:40:59 AM
:cloud9: Exactly, Molly, good point.  :thumbsup:

Doc; No, they both have a type of "consciousness". The spirit of God that is in us is inspiration, ie. breath that quickens. Quicken means to speed up or give life, but the life that God gives is not just the breath that enlivens the soul (even as the breath of animals/beastly carnal nature), but life that brings understanding, or "knowing".

Our soul is what makes us, us. He consumes it as we offer it on the altar; that's how we're changed from glory (terrestrial) to glory (celestial). As He quickens something to us (that "AHA!" moment) IF we accept whatever it was by changing how we now think (meaning of repentance = change the mind) about whatever it dealt with, it begins the process.

We then have to walk it out in shoe leather (works) for awhile, then after NOT seeing any change with natural eyes (because what is seen is not of faith but what is unseen) either within ourselves or our circumstances for a season, He will then move. The Spirit comes to perform the Word.

So if we stand in faith believing that the Word will not return void but will accomplish what it was sent to (you) to do, then that part of our soul will be translated out of the kingdom of darkness (carnal mind understanding) and into the kingdom of light (mind of Christ).

And because the oil (anointing) runs from the top of the head (mind) downwards (soul then body), this is the principle for healing and deliverance. Blessings...

Ok, I think that makes sense to me. So, what happens then is that a soul that has not been completely delivered at death then begins to go through the process of deliverance from the bondage it's still in once the spirit and soul leave the body and become separated from each other? So the "most conscious" part of us is what is stuck in Sheol/ Hades until it is completely delivered from that state.

 :cloud9: Hey Doc, when I read that something new hit me. This is where SOME (the soul) will awaken to shame, others (the spirit) to righteousness (because it is already in Christ, in the Spirit). We've thought it was two different types of people's, but it's like all the other stuff in there, like the wheat and the tares, it's PARTS of the whole man. Cool! Thank You, Father....Blessings....

PS. I should add this is why Paul talked about a superior resurrection, one that takes place IN the body, that we don't have to literally die to obtain. This is the mark of the prize of high calling in Christ Jesus, the fullness of the mind of Christ that leads to the glorified and therefore incorruptible, body.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 :cloud9: That's true Molly, but the SOUL that sins, it shall be cut off from the Lord. The soul that has not overcome all while still in a body, IS "cut off" temporarily. Blessings....

Maybe, Card, but even if I have to drag him down to hell with me, I never intend on being separated from him again. :icon_flower:

...if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

--Psa 139


But this is what I hold onto:


6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

--Psa 23

Quote from: Cardinal on April 10, 2009, 01:22:13 AM
:cloud9: Hey Doc, when I read that something new hit me. This is where SOME (the soul) will awaken to shame, others (the spirit) to righteousness (because it is already in Christ, in the Spirit). We've thought it was two different types of people's, but it's like all the other stuff in there, like the wheat and the tares, it's PARTS of the whole man. Cool! Thank You, Father....Blessings....

PS. I should add this is why Paul talked about a superior resurrection, one that takes place IN the body, that we don't have to literally die to obtain. This is the mark of the prize of high calling in Christ Jesus, the fullness of the mind of Christ that leads to the glorified and therefore incorruptible, body.

Hmm. And that may answer the question I've had rolling around in my head about just what the heck Paul meant by "better resurrection".

Quote from: Molly on April 10, 2009, 01:50:10 AM
Maybe, Card, but even if I have to drag him down to hell with me, I never intend on being separated from him again. :icon_flower:

...if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

--Psa 139


But this is what I hold onto:


6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.  --Psa 23

:cloud9: Yes He is there, because He's busy making hell deliver up it's dead, for the last 2 days/2000 years of "doing cures/making whole".

Amen, what choice do we have, it's ALL His house, even the 'basement", LOL...

The soul is ALREADY separated from His Spirit; that IS what separates us in the first place, which is why it must be redeemed/restored. Blessings...

Here's a real kicker:

Do any of you miss your now departed loved ones?  "Yes", you say?  Why? 

Well, do you think your departed loved ones miss YOU?

I say NO!  Why?  Don't they love us?  Of course they do!  Do you miss any friend if that friend is in the same room with you at the moment?  Of course not!

Martin quotes that we have already entered everlasting life.  Therefore, are we not with our departed loved ones right now?  Our flesh mind of course cannot see this, but what about our spiritual mind?

Furthermore, our departed loved ones are no longer confined to a time/space continuum, so it's spiritually possible that we are already with our departed loved ones even though we are still confined to a perishable flesh body.

It is written "Now we are seated in the Heavenlies".  Funny, I thought we were still on Earth?  Yeah, right, our flesh bodies are.  I'm quite certain our spirit trancends our earthly body.   Not necessarily in an actual "our of body" experience, as if we "died" or something, although that could possibly happen.

Chuck :smile:

Quote from: ChuckK3 on April 11, 2009, 10:30:43 AM
Here's a real kicker:

Do any of you miss your now departed loved ones?  "Yes", you say?  Why? 

Well, do you think your departed loved ones miss YOU?

I say NO!  Why?  Don't they love us?  Of course they do!  Do you miss any friend if that friend is in the same room with you at the moment?  Of course not!

Martin quotes that we have already entered everlasting life.  Therefore, are we not with our departed loved ones right now?  Our flesh mind of course cannot see this, but what about our spiritual mind?

Furthermore, our departed loved ones are no longer confined to a time/space continuum, so it's spiritually possible that we are already with our departed loved ones even though we are still confined to a perishable flesh body.

It is written "Now we are seated in the Heavenlies".  Funny, I thought we were still on Earth?  Yeah, right, our flesh bodies are.  I'm quite certain our spirit trancends our earthly body.   Not necessarily in an actual "our of body" experience, as if we "died" or something, although that could possibly happen.

Chuck :smile:

Chuck...

:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Best post on this entire thread.

I see the same thing, brother.

Do our loved ones sorrow for us...?? Well, if they see the bigger picture, there's not much need for sorrow and I believe they are cheering us on.

They are with us.

When my mother died, the split second before she died she said hello to my granny (who died 3 yrs before). I knew in my heart and in my soul that my granny WAS present and came to bring her home. My mother was dying of cancer, and had been thrashing a little back and forth and muttering and all of a sudden a great peace suddenly came over her from out of nowhere, she grew still and silent and said with all the wonder her voice could fathom... "Hi granny.....!"
A little bird who had flew on our windowsill and stood there looking in at us for several minutes and wouldn't leave, suddenly flew off the very SECOND that she died.

2 Weeks before my beloved dog died in January, my mother came to me in a dream and gave me a long, wonderful, comforting hug. (I've never had that happen to me in the 20 years that she has been dead. I woke up out of the dream in a "almost shocked" sort of state, because the dream was so intense and I just kept repeating to myself... oh my GOD! That was my mother. That was her essence, that wasn't just a dream... that was REALLY my mother! Her smell, her tight grip, the absolute comfort, everything about that hug was my mother.) After my dog died, I was a mess. I was so distressed my hair started to fall out and I developed hives. My dog also came back to me THREE times in very distinct dreams  the night that he died and the week after, that I, again, woke right up out of. He showed me how happy and healthy and surrounded by love he was. He was doing things he wasn't able to on earth. A few other encouraging messages I got from those dreams, but they're personal.

I was still distressed because I had so much guilt, wishing things had been different, etc. (as we all do I suppose). But, anyway I got so bad one day, I had to stay home from work because I cried all day long and just couldn't shake it. Slowly but surely, the dreams started to sink in.  God pointed me to many wonderful things in the bible. And a lot of other just truly beautiful things happened, especially some things that help snap me out of a year-long depression I had. Things have happened that have brought forth a need to put more love and kindness in this world. A need to rise above my earthly self and just do whatever I can do LOVE. To get past my earthly insecurities and limitations and LOVE. He worked some miracles in me and I have absolute, 100% faith that the moment we die, we go on and we are in the heavenlies. I will NEVER Forsake this belief. EVER.

My mother hugging me... I didn't realize it when it happened, but I was going to need that comfort. The year before I had been so distressed over things that had to do with events surrounding the death of HER mother, (my grandmother) and that was the first time my hair started falling out from stress. Then a year later, the stress enveloped me once more. She knew I needed that hug. (BEFORE I KNEW THAT I WOULD NEED THAT HUG. Do you see.... I had no idea the amount of distress I would be under when I had that dream. And I woke up perplexed at why, after TWENTY years would she NOW come to me?) And I believe things happened, and still more things happened in a way that would help me to really have faith in this belief of mine. I had already believed this. I never believed that when we die, we are just asleep. It was a hope deep inside of me and I had faith in it. Well God NURTURED it in a truly wonder-filled way. I think sometimes you just get to be shown stuff for a reason. We all have different little pieces of the puzzle. This puzzle piece is just... I can't tell you how sacred it is. I can't describe how valuable and beautiful it is to me. No matter the sorrow I went through to get it, the sorrow was just a stepping stone, in my eyes. and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

No mere human can ever say anything that will ever make me believe otherwise.
I see something that is so beautiful and wonder-filled....
God made me stumble across something that said "Native Americans believe that when a loved one died, they appear in a dream to a family member to let them know they are ok." I was not looking for this information, I just happened upon it.
Funny, how I have Native American blood and it was a Native American couple who helped me to understand Jesus.

Our God is VERY good.

VERY VERY VERY Good indeed.

But realizing having shared all of this, I do know that we are each on our own path.
I won't debate this view.
I just won't. If someone doesn't see it this way, that's fine.
No-one's beliefs intimidate my beliefs about this.

They are rock solid.
un-moving.

peace... :icon_flower:

Some of these things I'm not quite as settled on, but I enjoyed your post Sparrow, and it was inspiring.

Quote from: jabcat on April 11, 2009, 09:45:43 PM
Some of these things I'm not quite as settled on, but I enjoyed your post Sparrow, and it was inspiring.

:HeartThrob:
Thank you Jabcat.
That gave me a smile...
:icon_flower:

My mother's father was a Pastor that earlier in his life, in the beginning of the 20th Century, held tent meetings where the sick were healed.  When he died in '63 we counted over 30 churches still going that he had started.  Mother was an only child.  Perhaps that is part of why I became so close to her parents.  Every where that they moved grandma would set up a wren's house.  God faithfully gave her dear little feathered residents that she loved so much.  It was not 'til several months after she died that I heard of her death.

I lived in a small cabin in Minnesota.  I had an outdoor toilet and hauled in on a toboggan the wood that I burned.  I milked goats and helped the neighboring farmers, living off little more than food stamps.  I had a beard, read Puritan theology and smoked big cigars.

The morning after I heard grandma had died I opened my eyes to see 7 or 8 wrens fluttering against the window over my bed.  Ever since, in times of transition I notice wrens fluttering around me, and it may have been years since seeing any.  It is as though a sign that my heavenly Father sees me and cares for me.  Now, in this place he has given me, I'm on a major fly through for them.  Thousand of them migrate through here.  A little north of us is even a town called Wrens.  They're here year round.  One of them flys around the house every day chirping.  It's even come inside and responded well to my leading it outside again.

While I know God cares for me, that doesn't mean that I am happy.  Whether knowledge or suffering, even waiting, there are things we have been assigned that we have to get through.  Whatever of Adam is our lot, that we must be victorious over.  We must die to the flesh and come into Christ.  The Overcomers get the prize.

Very beautiful post, ReFORMer...
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Thank you for sharing that.

Some of my problem with resting in God's love is I know daddy spanks.  (It's at the level of Divine beings too!)

Quote from: reFORMer on April 12, 2009, 06:49:22 AM
Some of my problem with resting in God's love is I know daddy spanks.  (It's at the level of Divine beings too!)

Me too, James  :sigh:.

 :cloud9: Me three, reFormer....... :thumbsup:

Quote from: reFORMer on April 12, 2009, 06:02:36 AM
My mother's father was a Pastor that earlier in his life, in the beginning of the 20th Century, held tent meetings where the sick were healed.  When he died in '63 we counted over 30 churches still going that he had started.  Mother was an only child.  Perhaps that is part of why I became so close to her parents.  Every where that they moved grandma would set up a wren's house.  God faithfully gave her dear little feathered residents that she loved so much.  It was not 'til several months after she died that I heard of her death.

I lived in a small cabin in Minnesota.  I had an outdoor toilet and hauled in on a toboggan the wood that I burned.  I milked goats and helped the neighboring farmers, living off little more than food stamps.  I had a beard, read Puritan theology and smoked big cigars.

The morning after I heard grandma had died I opened my eyes to see 7 or 8 wrens fluttering against the window over my bed.  Ever since, in times of transition I notice wrens fluttering around me, and it may have been years since seeing any.  It is as though a sign that my heavenly Father sees me and cares for me.  Now, in this place he has given me, I'm on a major fly through for them.  Thousand of them migrate through here.  A little north of us is even a town called Wrens.  They're here year round.  One of them flys around the house every day chirping.  It's even come inside and responded well to my leading it outside again.

While I know God cares for me, that doesn't mean that I am happy.  Whether knowledge or suffering, even waiting, there are things we have been assigned that we have to get through.  Whatever of Adam is our lot, that we must be victorious over.  We must die to the flesh and come into Christ.  The Overcomers get the prize.

Amen. Great post

Grace and Peace

 :cloud9: This is a beautiful post by RLV that I pulled from her thread, because of some things she brought out pertaining to the soul.

The "woman" ...soul...was in a NOT yet "saved" state in the Vasthi
state..........even tho she was "called"
she was refused.
The "soul" is not saved til 1'st Peter 1:9 comes
to pass.
Which says: "Receiving the END of your faith, even
the salvation of your "soul."
When that comes to pass, the "woman" or "soul" is completely made
ONE with the Spirit from which the woman who brought forth the manchild
must be reunited.
The soul must be reunited with the Spirit.
He that is joined "to" the Lord is ONE Spirit.
The Spirit and His washed clean Bride....and He is the One
that "washed her" .........Eph 5
The woman must be reunited with her Son that she
brought forth and was caught up to the heavens. Rev. 12
She is nourished in the wilderness. Til it happens.
Without "faith" it is impossible to "please" God.
Esther pleased him, who was the type.
She "readied" herself on the 3rd day!

She seems to be a type of the "woman" in Revelation
that "to her was "granted" that she should be arrayed in fine linen."
She put on her beautiful garments and made herself ready.
She went in with blind "faith" and ended up
being told she and Mordecai could rewrite the judgement.
She made herself "ready" ...she was a "beautiful" woman
washing herself and she belonged to ONE.....she
was not the property of the Davids. You will remember
that DAVID tried to seize Bathsheba but had to pass thru
a real dark night before God gave her to him. So like Bathsheba, Estherdid not belong to the Davids, But she
was ONE with the ONE with whom she had made
herself ready. Put on thy "beautiful garments" AWAKE
O Zion, the holy city, for "henceforth" there shall no more
come into thee, the uncircumcised and the unclean. Isa. 52
The curse was broken. So the uncircumcised and unclean
could NOT but attempt! God made them fall for her sake.
Esther on the 3rd day put on her royal apparel and
stood in the INNER court of the Kings House!
Pharo claimed his river as "his own" but God said it wasn't.
But it would seem that God "gave" the "RIVER" to Esther.
The River became her own by flowing to her and Mordecai
to rewrite.......to reverse.......the curse.
Jesus rewrote it.
He knew.
His Father had commanded Him.
He knew that it was a commandment UNTO LIFE.
Remember Jesus saying "I have received a commandment
from the Father and I "KNOW" that it's LIFE everlasting!
He Removed the "death" on the Cross.
The curse turned into a blessing.
In the faith in Him state, Esther found FAVOR with the MAN
tho at that stage, she knew not whether she would
touch the "scepther" of Blessing in him, or
whatever else might be in the man to whom she
was sent to see.
Sorta like us, we have been taught we might touch that
"negative" side.
The "father of our faith" is Abraham.
He is the type of "going to a land that thou knowest NOT."
But in the progression of following HIM, we find
that He has already nailed death to the cross.
We are the Apple of His Eye....."because'
we are the WORK of HIS Hands.

Remember the woman that said to her husband, "If He
were not pleased with us, why would He show us all this?
Do not be deceived as was Eve. Disobedience breeds deceit.
Deceit does not bring the proceeding River from the Throne.
The Mother of all living who brings forth thru "travail." is Eve.
But
Jerusalem from ABOVE is FREE!
Without travail. FREE.
Depicting the two covenants.
It would seem to me that this "woman" who is FREE has been
reunited with the Son.
The end of our Salvation. 1st Peter 1:9
which is called the "salvation of the soul."
The time comes in our lives,
when
The "salvation" of our SOULS breaks the covenant with "death."
No more death. That does not mean that "death" will
not still "try" to come against us, but "we" are passed
from "death" unto LIFE and it's "effects" are LOST....
The Word says:
Isaiah 54:15 -
Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall ........
.fall for thy sake.
Tho Baalim climbs to the highest religious realm,
his eyes get opened and
he learns that GOD HAS BLESSED YOU!!
God "knows" that the first man was born blind.
In a sense.
And that HE must come forth with the Judgement UNTO LIFE
to take away that vanity thru the HOPE that HE also put in us
from the beginning.
He teaches each one of His Jewels Himself.
We know nothing about the knowlege of God until the Spirit
teaches it.
And what we "do NOT know" it is because we are not
ready for it. Jesus said, "I have many things to tell you
but you can't bear them now."
Walk in the "light" He has given and that causes more
LIGHT to be given.
Refuse to walk in it, and it causes a "delay"
of what HE knows about you and is eager for you to
know about yourself.
It does not change what is written and settled in the
Eternal Heaven about us, but it "delays" our knowing about it.
Truth KEEPS! Preserves. God knows how to "reserve or preserve" it
in the heavens.
It is God's plan for our understanding to "progress."
He does not feed meat to babies.
And we are told to be as little children.
We know by that it is about LOVE, not
about "knowledge." God is not impressed
with the legs of a man.
Neither is He a Respector of persons.
Seek and "ye" shall find; Rejoice with Jerusalem
and ye too will "milk out."
His eyes are on the Work of His Own Spirit.
That He Alone has done. Without the tool of man.
We learn all that as He progresses us in leaning not to
our own understanding, but here a little, there a little,
line on line, etc.
God's work in us shall see to it that that our earth
shall be covered with the KNOWLEDGE of God
as the "waters cover the sea."
Been covered with the Knowledge of the Wrong Tree
long enough. Ha So instead of being "covered" with the
Ezek. 28 so called "covering" we shall be "covered" with
a Robe of Righteousness, which HE clothes us with.
Our flesh starts out with a WAR against the Spirit.
Guess who wins?
And guess who gets full salvation thru the process?
Love and God quicken this word ....
Death to death!

__________________
And everywhere that the River ran, there was a healing!
THE MINISTRY BEHIND THE VEIL
The ministry of Spirit to Spirit is "behind the second veil" ........
unseen by man but special garments are given
for that ministry. They are "taken off" for the ministry "to the people."

Quote from: sparrow/quote]

Best post on this entire thread.

I see the same thing, brother.

Do our loved ones sorrow for us...?? Well, if they see the bigger picture, there's not much need for sorrow and I believe they are cheering us on.

They are with us.

When my mother died, the split second before she died she said hello to my granny (who died 3 yrs before). I knew in my heart and in my soul that my granny WAS present and came to bring her home. My mother was dying of cancer, and had been thrashing a little back and forth and muttering and all of a sudden a great peace suddenly came over her from out of nowhere, she grew still and silent and said with all the wonder her voice could fathom... "Hi granny.....!"
A little bird who had flew on our windowsill and stood there looking in at us for several minutes and wouldn't leave, suddenly flew off the very SECOND that she died.

2 Weeks before my beloved dog died in January, my mother came to me in a dream and gave me a long, wonderful, comforting hug. (I've never had that happen to me in the 20 years that she has been dead. I woke up out of the dream in a "almost shocked" sort of state, because the dream was so intense and I just kept repeating to myself... oh my GOD! That was my mother. That was her essence, that wasn't just a dream... that was REALLY my mother! Her smell, her tight grip, the absolute comfort, everything about that hug was my mother.) After my dog died, I was a mess. I was so distressed my hair started to fall out and I developed hives. My dog also came back to me THREE times in very distinct dreams  the night that he died and the week after, that I, again, woke right up out of. He showed me how happy and healthy and surrounded by love he was. He was doing things he wasn't able to on earth. A few other encouraging messages I got from those dreams, but they're personal.

I was still distressed because I had so much guilt, wishing things had been different, etc. (as we all do I suppose). But, anyway I got so bad one day, I had to stay home from work because I cried all day long and just couldn't shake it. Slowly but surely, the dreams started to sink in.  God pointed me to many wonderful things in the bible. And a lot of other just truly beautiful things happened, especially some things that help snap me out of a year-long depression I had. Things have happened that have brought forth a need to put more love and kindness in this world. A need to rise above my earthly self and just do whatever I can do LOVE. To get past my earthly insecurities and limitations and LOVE. He worked some miracles in me and I have absolute, 100% faith that the moment we die, we go on and we are in the heavenlies. I will NEVER Forsake this belief. EVER.

My mother hugging me... I didn't realize it when it happened, but I was going to need that comfort. The year before I had been so distressed over things that had to do with events surrounding the death of HER mother, (my grandmother) and that was the first time my hair started falling out from stress. Then a year later, the stress enveloped me once more. She knew I needed that hug. (BEFORE I KNEW THAT I WOULD NEED THAT HUG. Do you see.... I had no idea the amount of distress I would be under when I had that dream. And I woke up perplexed at why, after TWENTY years would she NOW come to me?) And I believe things happened, and still more things happened in a way that would help me to really have faith in this belief of mine. I had already believed this. I never believed that when we die, we are just asleep. It was a hope deep inside of me and I had faith in it. Well God NURTURED it in a truly wonder-filled way. I think sometimes you just get to be shown stuff for a reason. We all have different little pieces of the puzzle. This puzzle piece is just... I can't tell you how sacred it is. I can't describe how valuable and beautiful it is to me. No matter the sorrow I went through to get it, the sorrow was just a stepping stone, in my eyes. and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

No mere human can ever say anything that will ever make me believe otherwise.
I see something that is so beautiful and wonder-filled....
God made me stumble across something that said "Native Americans believe that when a loved one died, they appear in a dream to a family member to let them know they are ok." I was not looking for this information, I just happened upon it.
Funny, how I have Native American blood and it was a Native American couple who helped me to understand Jesus.

Our God is VERY good.

VERY VERY VERY Good indeed.

But realizing having shared all of this, I do know that we are each on our own path.
I won't debate this view.
I just won't. If someone doesn't see it this way, that's fine.
No-one's beliefs intimidate my beliefs about this.

They are rock solid.
un-moving.

peace... :icon_flower:

Sparrow -
This is such a heart-warming, personal story.  I'm so glad you took the time to share it.   I seem to think a lot about death these days.  It is coming very soon for all of us, so I imagine often what it will be like to leave this world and these earthly bodies behind.   

BTW, my mother appeared to me in a dream about 6 days after she died recently and we embraced.   She had a lot of native American (Cherokee) ancestry as well.  She lo, ved nature and was fascinated with trees and birds and feathers.

Thanks ...
Anne