Urgency

[jabcat]

One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question;  "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"?  "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?

I acknowledge;

1) some believe there is no hell
2) some believe hell is a made up word (me  :laugh:)
3) some believe "now" is "hell", i.e., consequences of this life
4) many believe hell/damnation is forever and inescapable
5) some believe "hell" completely annihilates forever
6) many etceteras

Disclaimer - I do not believe in a works based salvation (rather, it's a free gift, including the faith to believe).  However, I do believe we are responsible for responding to and living in obedience to what we have been given and are led to do, exercising our faith through trust and choice.  Also, that we are given the word of reconciliation "be ye reconciled to God!", and "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?".   


That said, (even though I don't personally like the word itself) what if there is a sort of "hell" that is to be avoided though belief on Jesus as Savior?  In other words, what if the temporary correction/punishment Jesus talked about, is worth the urgency of responding affirmatively to His call in this life if/when it is given;  and the faith provided by Him to be acted upon/received instead of rejected/ignored?   

John 3:36 YLT  he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

I Thes. 1:10 NIV  and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

A few of things I recall; 

1. (Member/Moderator) Cardinal talking about revelation she has about correction/discipline in the next age for those who have done certain things that haven't been corrected in this life.

2. Also, I recall an account on Lighthouse.org about a near death experience, where it was reported having observed those in a sort of "hellish place", being disciplined, working through things, coming to a place of finally fully looking to Jesus.

3. J. Preston Eby, in his Savior of the World/Kingdom series on TM, talking about man's disobedience, and how that no matter how long it takes in the next age(s) that God will break that stubborn will, until all have knelt in obedience before the cross of Christ.  He says the Kingdom of God is not (paraphrased) a walk in the park/something to be considered lightly, but that submitting to Christ as Savior and following Jesus as Lord (of course, only as He empowers, not in our own flesh/works) - obedience/looking to Him - is a serious and "bloody" (His blood) proposition.

In other words, maybe there is an urgency after all?  That in preaching the gospel, we may actually be helping people avoid a "wrath that remains AND is coming" upon those who don't believe?

Worth discussion?  Blessings.

Further disclaimer;  this is not meant to be a word of condemnation or pushing a Law or works based effort to salvation.  But rather, one of perhaps reconciling the conflict between "should we share the gospel", and if so, why;  as well as, "universalists say everyone's going to be saved anyway, so what's the point in worrying about it"?  Maybe it's not just peaches and cream for everyone, i.e., "some will receive many stripes"....    Understand what I'm getting at?  Please discuss/explore.

[jabcat]

If the above was too long for some of you to read, here's the short version;

do you believe, as a UR person rather than ET believer vested in escaping eternal damnation, that there is a reason to help people avoid the "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "the wrath to come", the kolasin aionion (temporary correction),  by proclaiming Christ as Savior and encouraging others to believe on Him?  I.e. evangelism, being a witness for Him?  Or should we not care, as no one has anything to fear or avoid?    And either way, not just feelings or personal druthers - what's the scriptural support?  Blessings.

[Dandelion]

"We love because He loved us first."

Not fear of anything, but love of God, and the overflow of that is love of our neighbor.

1 John 4:

7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.

I think the above pretty much covers this question.

Fear or terror is not of God, but of the devil. I am not speaking here of a healthy fear of God, stemming from respect. Fear should not be our motive. Fear is a self-centered existence. Love reaches out and takes us into a realm of living for others and for God. God's grace abounds and sends us on a journey of learning what love is and how to do it.

D.

[DavidFord]

There is a hell, and many people are there now.  People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual.  It's good to work hard to see that Jesus gets _this side of the grave_ the most return for his investment of suffering and humility.  Jesus came to bring life, abundant life, and people on earth walking in spiritual darkness, or living with physical or persistent emotional pain, aren't living with abundant life.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death.  Spiritual progress can rapidly be made in this life; after death, spiritual progress is possible, but occurs much more slowly.  See Peter Tan's _The Spiritual World_, available online as a PDF.

[WhiteWings]

One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question;  "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"?  "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?

If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?

[jabcat]

One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question;  "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"?  "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?

If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?

paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best

There is a hell, and many people are there now.  People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual. 
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death. 

so it sounds like you believe there is both an urgency and some unpleasant things to avoid


Dandelion, I agree with God's love and Him pursuing and empowering us.  There are some other things in the scriptures though, that even though they may have further context/explanation, they were still written for a reason, as well as many of them are used in arguing against UR.  The already-mentioned "wrath of God remains on them/wrath to come", and kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of.  Also this;  "fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna...";  And then there's this;

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Further thoughts?

[sheila]

the apostles lived lives that ended in martyrdom because the religious ruling class couldn't stand the thought of sin

being forgiven ,nor the free gift of grace and eternal life being given..Nor that He called himself God's son..and

wasn't ashamed to call us brothers and sisters.They were trying to spread/share the GOOD NEWS!!

Those with the glorious ministry of death were jealous and afraid that all the people would follow Him and that His ministry would be

MORE GLORIOUS!2Cor3;7-11 :2c:

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: good points!

[sheila]

Jesus sacrifice was perpetual[take away all sin]why would He instruct us to pray as He did.

.forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who tresspass against us.Along with requesting daily bread :girlheart:

[WhiteWings]

One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question;  "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"?  "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?

If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?

paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best

For him it was better to go, but he stayed for the greater good.

My point is that the urgency to know Jesus isn't a eternal hell or heaven thing.

Arguments like this are total waste of time if the foundation isn't correct.
For ETs everything points to hell.
However I can see the ET makes a very good point if he/she is answering the URs that claim whatever you do there are no concequences because the Blood of Jesus covers it all.
I'm not one of those URs.

[rosered]

This is only written for our consideration , no one can give us answers , but by the HOLY SPIRIT quickening the WORD OF LIFE in us , by many witnesses , as I am one among the many  to witness in   sharing in the good news  of our LORD JESUS CHRIST sent to annul death by His own blood shed against sin = death ......being finished on HIS  cross and us taking up ours to know the Love of Gods power over death/hell  and those  being disciplined  by Holy Spirit and fire  correction  everyone gets to experience  life and death because GOD IS NO RESPECTER of persons   .

  My greatest  comfort about  death / hell [grave ]  and gehenna/fiery  judgments ,  has always been this one thing  .

God allowed  for  me to know  within  and able to draw strength from it  and  times of  wavering in the faith ,  because me being so very weak  and  unable to overcome in my own mind and strength , His own desires  to do what He wants with His own things . namely  His own creation  , and new  creation .

When reading the scriptures  and  to connect those , as a train of thought , both powerful and moving , God always knew and we do not ,,,,     exactly what  each of our lives would  matter to Him  and not return to Hm Void  , but fulfill His will totally  over this  course of time and space , each in their own order   would rise  up out of hell/death  because  JESUS CHRIST being the WORD OF GOD

Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.

For me,  that is the unbelief and trusting in mankind's message and our own strength  , that overflowing  scourge of the dragons flood of lies  against the TRUTH ..

   God made everything good  and  right  in the 6 days  but  the  7th day   [GOD rested and  JESUS CHRIST ] is finishing  up  the works  till God be all in All.  [LORD OF ALL the dead and living ]  and holding them all within Himself ,  for By Him and though Him does everything exist
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome  it.     we are still in the throws of  understanding GODS  plan  of the ages  .

The day of the LORD is the LIGHT OF LIFE  [1000 year reign ]   Adams 960 death [in the day you eat of the tree of knowing of good and evil you shall surly die  experiencing death  + Babylons 70  captivity [set for captivity   predestined for captivity  and even death  rev 13 10"If anyone is destined for captivity,

into captivity he will go;

if anyone is to die  by the sword,

by the sword he must be killed. =  some are set in this life for this very course  not knowing if this was their  end but it glories GOD  in the earth ,    think of Jesus at that cross to the world it looked weak and beggarly  , but the those whom  believe the TRUTH  setting them free ,  the faith was given to know and even now  ,it is the power  of GOD displayed  in the earth  as  LIFE  swallows up death in victory   .

1000 year  equals  this  ONE LAST DAY   WORD of Life  and the famine set for this WORD OF LIFE   being in place and to overcome by the blood of Jesus not loving our mortal lives unto death but LIVE   in the SPIRIT OF  CHRIST LIFE  for some even now , being called   and predestined from the beginning ...

1 Cor 15  explains   the mystery  of  resurrection  fairly well   and  we are to also  gather the food of Life from the  scriptures in Colossians  1   for me to get this  part here .

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

HIS LIFE  and Holding all Life within Himself   is  swallowing up death even as we speak .because all things are His to do as he
pleases  glorifying GOD ALWAYS  in the  complete and perfect works  from the beginning making all things new and Living  ... TILL GOD BE ALL IN ALL

Because Jesus always knew we are all born  as  poor blind miserable and naked and can do nothing of ourselves   and   without Him  we can do nothing    , in light and knowledge of God  ,   every knee will bow   and tongue confess Him because    HE come to do the works of faith  though us all   Glorifying GOD ..
some do know now tasting His  Love and  Life in us and knowing all will be made  complete because of Him .

  FATHER KNOWS BEST,   for sure ....   we just have to wait on the Lord Jesus Christ and obey what we have been given  so far and not loose hope and trust His perfect will   .  the DAY of the LORD  judges all things [  7th Day  rest of God  ] because the  Sabbath [Holy ] day   is  when all the healing  and  raising the dead to Life in CHRIST IS done in .  For me it is the  anointed WORD OF TRUTH setting us all free whom believe it . 

   the Sabbath  Day  was made for mankind  to restore all  things back to the FATHER  , not mankind for the Sabbath [Holy day
, Himself ]  romans 14 everyday is HOLY to some as to holding the head in place and first  and foremost..preeminence
the fact of surpassing all others; superiority.  the LORD JESUS CHRIST IS HIS  earthly name ........   but HE IS GODS WORD OF TRUTH   IN everything , full of glory to God , to us whom will all believe  in the end , making everything new AND LIVING  in and though HIS OWN BODY,  the Tree of Life . .   in the garden of Gods good pleasure  that everyone will eat of  that DAY  this day .  the day of the Lord .
  so sorry this is long    ..but it is the bigger picture to me ... it is set a far off and yet so near to us all and relish in it, thinking of it .  eating His Body  and drinking His blood  joyfully   that we might too have Life in us .   

[Dandelion]

One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question;  "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"?  "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?

If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?

paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best

There is a hell, and many people are there now.  People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual. 
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death. 

so it sounds like you believe there is both an urgency and some unpleasant things to avoid


Dandelion, I agree with God's love and Him pursuing and empowering us.  There are some other things in the scriptures though, that even though they may have further context/explanation, they were still written for a reason, as well as many of them are used in arguing against UR.  The already-mentioned "wrath of God remains on them/wrath to come", and kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of.  Also this;  "fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna...";  And then there's this;

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Further thoughts?

I believe we will be judged and that there will be a need for transformation, for how many I don't know, which may well not be pleasant. But, it should not be our motivation for following Christ. That is what I am saying. I know that all of what is stated in the Bible is true, and needs to be understood.

D.

D.

[marie glen]

...Understand what I'm getting at?  Please discuss/explore.

I like what Eby Preston said about time.. that the Lord will through working upon the person spend all the time it takes to draw each one. I totally believe that! I think of "the judgment" as Jesus referred to it, as lasting 500 years.

I believe this because of the pattern of the ancient fall holy days (Lev.23). Since His first Advent so perfectly fulfilled the Spring ones.

But even without that, I can't think of the judgment as a flash in the pan (?) event (occasion?) [ :doh: I kind of like how old cliches one hasn't thought of or heard for decades, will pop up in ones head. :laughing7: ]

Revelation 20 talks about a first resurrection - "those that are His at his coming" - and how "the rest of the dead come not back to life until after the thousand years".

[Represented by the "10 days" between Trumpets and Day of Atonement (? imo)]

I think to rise after the thousand years, having "died in ones sins" thus rise "still in their sins" ...those of that rising, being in the same state they were in at their death and likely before. All range.. as is even now.

I think (especially, initially) this second resurrection (of Rev 20, "after the thousand years") is far less joyful and  celebratory for the participants, than the "first" one (of Rev.20). "Outside the feast/banquet". Although there should be some happiness on some's part, to find theirself risen!

And since there is all range of folks who die before salvation/reconciliation, I think there will be the same range also post resurrection. Those who hate God at their death, I believe will hate God when they rise to the Judgment.

So lots of gnashing of teeth, weeping.. and even outer darkness..

To say nothing of the torments during this life.. And also how John the Baptist warned Pharisees, etc. saying "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come!" Which I have to think was not an after life prophecy, but of the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.. but I have read many times all the believers in our Lord remembered and recognized words of Jesus and left the city beforehand. And the way humankind is, and the 'advances' made.. fiery wrath yet again seems, to me, to be a logical prophecy. But it's kind of habitual to think of the wrath of God as being after life, but even now, those not saved, "the wrath of God remains upon them". Now. And what is it that remains upon one until salvation? Death. The "wages" of sin. Results of..

Every age seems to have its "foaming" side effects (social ills, etc) and sometimes fiery consequences of man's doings, called "war" (2nd horseman of the apocalypse, and of the age/CE, and in every age is a prominent element).

And by - conclusion - of the Judgment, thosestill not "believing" I believe will go to the lake which burns with fire, where the false prophet (false prophecying/predicting/forecasting) and the larger beast of Rev. 13 are, having been cast there at Jesus' return.. the lake created for the devil and his angels..

But it's, I believe, habit, these days, to think of all, or at least most, judgment in terms of afterlife, and coincidentally, it's fiery judgment.. Or so it seems very coincidental to me.. And I kind of think of man"s capability to produce a lake of fire.. And at the universal "all in all" event, if one is not revivified, made totally new, "immortality and incorruption put on" - well, He is "a consuming fire".. So that may not be the most pleasant way of  being refined.. Refiner's fire full force? gulp..

[sheila]

 :2c:people need to research..Baal-bek, desert of Duda-el..Azazael/scapegoat etc..terms like abyss,angels bound/tartarus etc

will begin to make sense.Enoch also..LOF..and who goes in there and who doesn't.There's photos..and all kinds of imfo..

available at your fingertips..seek and ye shall  find.These powers and principalities are still active.Earth is their prison house

where they await judgement..and many a man is their individual prison cell. THEY WILL BE SEPERATED FIRST.

[sheila]

...andps..these powers and principalities are behind many/all of the horrendous weapons of war that have been

andare being developed......as well as mind-manipulation,sonic weaponsetc...If you've ever seen a psychopath..you have

witnessed their nature/character.They are predators/parasites..and man and animals their prey.satan going about like a

lion seeking whom he may devour is TRUTH!! :2c:

[marie glen]

....amen psychopaths.. I never thought of it that way, definitely true.. definitely predator..


PS - urgency - in new, New Testament Days, also was the getting the gospel into the world, to all nations.. a new thing bursting upon the scene.. and changed the world. (The first horseman of the apocalypse/prevalent element of the latter age (CE) gone and going forth conquering and to conquer, openly victorious over (those predatory) powers and principalities..)

[rosered]

Amen !!  God bless you all with more of Him , to the full ....................... :HeartThrob:    :dsunny:

  The last days men shall be lovers of themselves  and disobedient   to Gods   gift   being  the love  Jesus come to show us How eating the tree of life would save us .

  Eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil was making  everyone DEAD   before God .  Only doing like Jesus did could make you righteous  and alive  before God , Jesus raised the dead to Life with LOVE  , not hate and judgement  adding sin error to error ...
the woman caught in the act of adultery  , Jesus forgave  her    and told her not to sin no more lest a worse thing come upon her , showing me the judgements  of God   are in the earth  in   the  here and now .   by letting her live , but those ready to judge her and kill her were also    full of sin and death   full of self -righteousness   and unjust judges  spreading HATE  making more errors and death  or adding sin to sin .. wages of sin is death .twice dead ?  appearing  as holy before men but full of  dead people that  they  kill with   words of harsh judgments and  claiming to be right with God !  being respecter of persons   James 2 ........
  Jesus WORDS  made everyone guilty  before GOD ........ under the old law , there is none righteous no not one =as dead ..... but the new and living way was to forgive  and   show mercy   in   the  love of God  to the sinner
  I find that beautiful , because Jesus forgive her , but added a  STRONG WORD of advice  ,  do not let  a  worse thing happen come upon you by deliberately  continuing to  sin /error  more death   if you do not obey His Voice and live .


2 Tim 3

Evil in the Last Days

1But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come.

2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

3unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good,

4traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!

6They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions,

7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth.

They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith.

9But they will not advance much further.

For just like Jannes and Jambres, their folly will be plain to everyone.

   Sounds to me in here the rewards  of obedience to   Gods love though Jesus Christ is to  advance  further into the Spiritual powers  that heal the sick  ,   raise the dead to life again and speak with new tongues   ,

that would be love and forgiveness  of sins    , such as love your enemies   and do good at every  opportunity perhaps  and BE LIKE JESUS .....Pleasing the Father and not so much men pleasers whom group up and pack mentality .  such as those judging the woman caught in the act  of sin ,   would that be bearing false witness  because they were as guilty as she was  in their
   darkened hearts  and ready to condemn  anyone whom was NOT  like them ..   if the light of the eye  is not single , than the whole body is full of darkness and how great is that darkness .

Babylon twist the scriptures to make it work for them , not single  eye = Light /true  towards GOD and pleasing Him , but  gossipers /slanderers   among themselves acting in   more sin /error .

If we realize our error /sin and show mercy, we can also obtain mercy   from GOD  ,

if we repent  from the error of our doing   and not be judged along with the world ....

  the  spirit  of the world is the proof  of sin  /error  , a great darkness and not light  but lie in their hearts  deceiving themselves and others  and basically working against the LORD JESUS CHRIST   whom gathers   together in ONE SPIRIT and  not scatters  making folks  feel   hurt & hated , fearful and separated  as  alone in the world   . 
1 John 4

Testing the Spirits

1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

For many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus  is not from God.

This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.

4You, little children, are from God and have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

5They are of the world.

That is why they speak from the world's perspective, and the world listens to them.

6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.

  So it is  listening   to HIS VOICE AND LIVE and careful how and to whom we listen  in others .

  the voice of many waters  from above  , water of Life freely

  and the waters from below   that are earthly sensual and devilish .............

[rosered]

There is a hell, and many people are there now.  People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual.  It's good to work hard to see that Jesus gets _this side of the grave_ the most return for his investment of suffering and humility.  Jesus came to bring life, abundant life, and people on earth walking in spiritual darkness, or living with physical or persistent emotional pain, aren't living with abundant life.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death.  Spiritual progress can rapidly be made in this life; after death, spiritual progress is possible, but occurs much more slowly.  See Peter Tan's _The Spiritual World_, available online as a PDF.

"We love because He loved us first."

Not fear of anything, but love of God, and the overflow of that is love of our neighbor.

1 John 4:

7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.

I think the above pretty much covers this question.

Fear or terror is not of God, but of the devil. I am not speaking here of a healthy fear of God, stemming from respect. Fear should not be our motive. Fear is a self-centered existence. Love reaches out and takes us into a realm of living for others and for God. God's grace abounds and sends us on a journey of learning what love is and how to do it.

D.

Abundant life  to me causes more life to come from what God has already supplied .

  Amen   sis!!
  Perfect Love keeps no record of wrongdoing !!!!!!!!!!!  LOVE our enemies and do good always that comes from Gods own Spirit of Life ... would God not do exactly as  we are told to do also  like love enemies and keep no record of wrongs  , God  is Love ,  right ?  !!


4Love is patient, love is kind.

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs.

6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth.

7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails.

praying for more LOVE OF GOD  to fill us all to overflowing peace like a river  !!!!!!!! peace calms  and makes us children of the Father  :HeartThrob:  Matt 5 He said:

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Do we see this last verse as a promise to come or as  given as obedience to Jesus judgments now ?

I have considered both  the Judgment seat of Christ  , being   obedience  to Him in the here and now and  great white Throne  judgment  is given to those whom reject  Jesus Words  that judge  us in mercy .

for me the great white throne judgment is   heaven as a witness , Gods word says  heaven IS My throne and the earth is His footstool , but if the old heaven  and earth are  no more  , this to me is the tree of knowlege of good and evil   , remove the evil from the good in the tree  by fire  , Holy Spirit and Fire,,,,,, God is also a consuming fire .

here is the scriptures that do describe   the great white throne , it is all that are gathered already to me in GODS SPIRIT the HOLY ONE SPIRIT where new life is given .

   the new heaven  is making all things new from the new testament  rev 21 5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."!!!!!!!!  this comes  from the vision John wrote down for our  own benefit  whom read the Word of God  that judges us all  righteously ,the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and, though they seem to die, their hope is full of immortality.!! as faith , hope and Love  keep the body soul and Spirit alive  and as ONE  from GOD

Revelation 20:10-15 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

For me to understand this is   JESUS CHRIST IS reconciling all things  now sitting on the throne with His Father

2 Corinthians 5:18–20; Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 1:20–21

18 All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, owe are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 zAnd you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,

  I am persuaded now  is the time to shine  as a Light  in the world  , not some time after  our  mortal death comes

I believe that may well be happening , all the scriptures are being filled  now  , what age to come  that has not grace  already being given  or shown  ?

Matthew 12:32
Christ said that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven, "either in this age, or in the age to come".

  I believe it is  this age being those still under the law of sin and death  , that still applies   from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the age to come is the age of mercy and grace that is eating from the tree of Life again   that  was  taken away   when sin first entered  the age of innocence ..before the law come and before sin entered  paradise .  7 days and 3 ages ?

  Jesus spoke of the 3 days of  raising   the temple , you are Gods temple
  what if the age of innocence before the law  came  to put us to death because of disobedience  was where the forgiveness of sin comes  by grace  though mercy  , but must also show that same mercy  to everyone also ?
  none can be worthy  except  by GOD giving us the ability to overcome by the blood of Jesus  , would that apply to all  if God is no respecter of person ?   He tasted death for everyman  , we have not tasted death for everyman , but is that not the goal to be like Him ?   despising the shame , and yet obedient  to the will of God even to death  of our own wills and desires and opinions as we also take up our cross ?

    John 2 Jesus Cleanses the Temple
...18On account of this, the Jews demanded, "What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?" 19Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again." 20"This temple took forty-six years to build," the Jews replied, "and You are going to raise it up in three days?"... 
taking us back to innocence before the word begun !   the Lamb was slain before the foundation  of the world began ..  this world that shall be no more .
  HE becomes our foundation of truth  in innocence .
  doubt is a killer of faith   for sure ...  we are to  believe without doubting , anything not of faith  in Him and His Words of Life is sin /error  it seems ..

[sheila]

well...thankfully  the Good News of the salvation of all does not preach condemnation of men..does it?For God doesnot

overly despise His CAPTIVE PEOPLE...they,too,shall be set free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.

God is good and causes his sun/son to shine on both good and bad men[prodigals]


Parableofthe weddingbanquetMatt 22...........go tothe street corners and invitete tothe wedding banquet anyone you find....

and gathered all the people they could find..both good and bad.

bad figs can hardly be eaten..and will not eat.........men not clothed with love for thier fellowmen/captive brethren..well....

their fithy rags of self-righteous will not allow them to eat/rejoice at the prodigals return.They become offended..anddo

not enter the joy of their Master.We all know those faithful in a  fewthings shall be faithful in many [willonly a few be saved,Lord] Matt

25;21  you have been faithful in afew things......I will put you in charge of many things.

now I know demon-possessed men[captivesofthedevil] ..are many[legion] andmany take the broad path  of destruction .......

But I don't see that as a problem...I believe faith the size of a mustrd seed can move the mountain of curses and it will be thrown into

the molten sea/LOF

Romans12;14  Bless those who persecute you,bless and do not curse.  :2c:

[sheila]

is spiritual progress slow after death?or shall we ALL BE CHANGED IN TWINKLING OF AN EYE?I would think unhindered by this body

of death weak and corruptible would be an advatage? :2c:

[sheila]

Psalms 146;7 He upholds the cause of the oppressed[authoritarian harsh judgement/treatment] and gives food to the hungry.

   The LORD sets prisoners free,the Lord gives sight to the blind.The Lord lifts up those who are bowed down

       The Lord loves the righteous

there are many hungering and thirsting for righteousness right now.Give them a cold drink of the water of life[freegift]..wemust 'visit'the

the many sinsick in prison,and tell them 'nothing can separate them from the Loveof God shown in Jesus Christ."

we must give the bread of life unto all men and cover their nakedness...and make an end of sin...

   LIFE MUST SWALLOW UP DEATH

Jesusmake a distinction between a sheep[man]and a goat[demons possessing him]and we must too. :2c:


                                      Praise the Lord.

[sheila]

Let us hold on unswervingly to the hope we profess[salvation of all men]for He who promised is faithful.And let us consider how we may

spur on one another toward love and good deeds.

LET US NOT GIVE UP THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGATHER..as some are in the habit of doing-but let us encourage one another-

and  ALL THE MORE  as you see the day approaching.


My Father's House is a house of prayer for ALL  MEN...Matt 12;30Ephesians 1;9,10


He who is not with me is against me,and he who does not gather with me scatters

and He made known to us the mystery of His will,according unto His good pleasure, he purposed in CHRIST..to be put into effect

when the times will have reached their  fulfillment TO BRING ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH    TO_GATHER

UNDER ONE HEAD

[jabcat]

Lots of interesting discussion :)

marie especially as it's kind of your thing as you've talked of a coming 500 year period based on your studies, but anyone else that may want to chime in of course.   I realize not all believe there's any type of punishment/ongoing correction in the next age.  I do, although i'm certainly not sure what it looks like or how long it is.  i do think it's different for everyone, as some for instance who have never heard, yet have a tender ready heart, I believe will almost immediately recognize and accept Jesus for Who He is and kneel and confess.  Others...

Anyway, just the past couple of days I've been thinking about the scripture that is used as one of the main "guns" by ET against UR - and I admit, even for UR believers it can pose a bit of a challenge.  I know I've struggled over it.    The scripture is Matthew 25:46, which reads in the KJV "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."  The ET argument is, the duration is the same for both - FOREVER/ETERNAL, so that means since the saved have eternal life, then it's everlasting torment to the unsaved.    Of course a more literal rendering is "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' 

So the question/suggestion - this verse is not talking about "eternity/forever" at all, but rather about an age, a specific period of time that ends and then next things occur.  I.e., that the next age (Marie I've seen you suggest 500 years based on your studies) will be a time when those unbelieving will be brought to belief through whatever means God has chosen (kolasin aionion), while the believers/saved/those called "righteous" in the scriptures [HIS righteousness bestowed through grace to those believing], will spend that time in "life" (whatever God has chosen that to be as well). 

  So again, the duration is indeed the same, but it's not talking yet about "eternity", so there's no ET "proof" or real conflict.   More so that then, when that age is up, the next things happen..immortality, consummation, All in All, etc.  >>>  Eph 2:7 "so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

[GodIsLove]

I believe after death is not the end of learning for anyone, "saved" or "unsaved," I don't think any punishment is imposed by God but is instead a result of cause and effect and shedding our "filthy garments," and any difficulty in the end will be seen looking back as necessary and I can imagine even being graceful for it, though at the time it will be seen as anguish by a self centered or unloving person.

But I think the Bible is mostly silent on after death matters, on purpose, because our purpose on earth is not to sit around waiting for the after life, but to live here and now in LOVE, and I believe Jesus's message is for us to do it NOW on earth, and that is the urgency. It's not to save ourselves from hell, it's to live a life following Christ now to help others around us and further along the kingdom of heaven on earth.

I believe a lot of these verses need to be taken into context, in that Jesus spoke these words to Jews in a specific time and place. They were still in the age of law, so the next age was the one we are currently in, the age of grace, and the punishment of THIS age is that those unbelieving do not have a part of the grace and "heaven" NOW, the peace that surpasses all understanding NOW when we trust in God and allow the HS in our hearts and emulate Jesus.

We can look around and see that in this age, some are being perfected in LOVE and for me that shows the pattern that will happen for all.

But this doesn't make it easier. I'm struggling with my mom's suffering horrific illness, MusicLover is suffering with health problems and feeling oppresssed, Rose spoke of coming out of a baptism of sorts where she was suffering. We look BACK and see the purpose of God chastising those he loves, but in the moment it feels a lot more like "my God, why have you forsaken me?"

[GodIsLove]

One more thing,

I now think of these trials as exercise to strengthen our spirit or soul.

When we are weak, building up strength is hard and muscles hurt, we get tired, we want to give up.

But after continually going through the fire/going through trial/exercising our spiritual muscles, it will become easy and then our job is to help others and lift them up.

Jesus is our trainer, he helps us, shows us the way, leads us, lightens the load for us sometimes, but allows more of a challenge when we knows we can do it.

Now we need Jesus, but I believe he wants us to eventually be like him, in which case our job would be what his job was, to help those needing help.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

In the next line it says whatever we ask through him will be granted, so he's there for us as help and support always.

1 John 3:16
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1 Peter 2:21
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.

Jesus wants us to emulate him. To eventually be like him. He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.