One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
I acknowledge;
1) some believe there is no hell
2) some believe hell is a made up word (me :laugh:)
3) some believe "now" is "hell", i.e., consequences of this life
4) many believe hell/damnation is forever and inescapable
5) some believe "hell" completely annihilates forever
6) many etceteras
Disclaimer - I do not believe in a works based salvation (rather, it's a free gift, including the faith to believe). However, I do believe we are responsible for responding to and living in obedience to what we have been given and are led to do, exercising our faith through trust and choice. Also, that we are given the word of reconciliation "be ye reconciled to God!", and "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?".
That said, (even though I don't personally like the word itself) what if there is a sort of "hell" that is to be avoided though belief on Jesus as Savior? In other words, what if the temporary correction/punishment Jesus talked about, is worth the urgency of responding affirmatively to His call in this life if/when it is given; and the faith provided by Him to be acted upon/received instead of rejected/ignored?
John 3:36 YLT he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
I Thes. 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
A few of things I recall;
1. (Member/Moderator) Cardinal talking about revelation she has about correction/discipline in the next age for those who have done certain things that haven't been corrected in this life.
2. Also, I recall an account on Lighthouse.org about a near death experience, where it was reported having observed those in a sort of "hellish place", being disciplined, working through things, coming to a place of finally fully looking to Jesus.
3. J. Preston Eby, in his Savior of the World/Kingdom series on TM, talking about man's disobedience, and how that no matter how long it takes in the next age(s) that God will break that stubborn will, until all have knelt in obedience before the cross of Christ. He says the Kingdom of God is not (paraphrased) a walk in the park/something to be considered lightly, but that submitting to Christ as Savior and following Jesus as Lord (of course, only as He empowers, not in our own flesh/works) - obedience/looking to Him - is a serious and "bloody" (His blood) proposition.
In other words, maybe there is an urgency after all? That in preaching the gospel, we may actually be helping people avoid a "wrath that remains AND is coming" upon those who don't believe?
Worth discussion? Blessings.
Further disclaimer; this is not meant to be a word of condemnation or pushing a Law or works based effort to salvation. But rather, one of perhaps reconciling the conflict between "should we share the gospel", and if so, why; as well as, "universalists say everyone's going to be saved anyway, so what's the point in worrying about it"? Maybe it's not just peaches and cream for everyone, i.e., "some will receive many stripes".... Understand what I'm getting at? Please discuss/explore.
If the above was too long for some of you to read, here's the short version;
do you believe, as a UR person rather than ET believer vested in escaping eternal damnation, that there is a reason to help people avoid the "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "the wrath to come", the kolasin aionion (temporary correction), by proclaiming Christ as Savior and encouraging others to believe on Him? I.e. evangelism, being a witness for Him? Or should we not care, as no one has anything to fear or avoid? And either way, not just feelings or personal druthers - what's the scriptural support? Blessings.
"We love because He loved us first."
Not fear of anything, but love of God, and the overflow of that is love of our neighbor.
1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.
20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.
I think the above pretty much covers this question.
Fear or terror is not of God, but of the devil. I am not speaking here of a healthy fear of God, stemming from respect. Fear should not be our motive. Fear is a self-centered existence. Love reaches out and takes us into a realm of living for others and for God. God's grace abounds and sends us on a journey of learning what love is and how to do it.
D.
There is a hell, and many people are there now. People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual. It's good to work hard to see that Jesus gets _this side of the grave_ the most return for his investment of suffering and humility. Jesus came to bring life, abundant life, and people on earth walking in spiritual darkness, or living with physical or persistent emotional pain, aren't living with abundant life.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death. Spiritual progress can rapidly be made in this life; after death, spiritual progress is possible, but occurs much more slowly. See Peter Tan's _The Spiritual World_, available online as a PDF.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2019, 06:37:34 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?
paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best
Quote from: DavidFord on January 31, 2019, 05:42:57 AM
There is a hell, and many people are there now. People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death.
so it sounds like you believe there is both an urgency and some unpleasant things to avoid
Dandelion, I agree with God's love and Him pursuing and empowering us. There are some other things in the scriptures though, that even though they may have further context/explanation, they were still written for a reason, as well as many of them are used in arguing against UR. The already-mentioned "wrath of God remains on them/wrath to come", and kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of. Also this; "fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna..."; And then there's this;
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a
fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Further thoughts?
the apostles lived lives that ended in martyrdom because the religious ruling class couldn't stand the thought of sin
being forgiven ,nor the free gift of grace and eternal life being given..Nor that He called himself God's son..and
wasn't ashamed to call us brothers and sisters.They were trying to spread/share the GOOD NEWS!!
Those with the glorious ministry of death were jealous and afraid that all the people would follow Him and that His ministry would be
MORE GLORIOUS!2Cor3;7-11 :2c:
:thumbsup: good points!
Jesus sacrifice was perpetual[take away all sin]why would He instruct us to pray as He did.
.forgive us our trespasses as we have forgiven those who tresspass against us.Along with requesting daily bread :girlheart:
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 07:42:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2019, 06:37:34 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?
paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best
For him it was better to go, but he stayed for the greater good.
My point is that the urgency to know Jesus isn't a eternal hell or heaven thing.
Arguments like this are total waste of time if the foundation isn't correct.
For ETs everything points to hell.
However I can see the ET makes a very good point if he/she is answering the URs that claim whatever you do there are no concequences because the Blood of Jesus covers it all.
I'm not one of those URs.
This is only written for our consideration , no one can give us answers , but by the HOLY SPIRIT quickening the WORD OF LIFE in us , by many witnesses , as I am one among the many to witness in sharing in the good news of our LORD JESUS CHRIST sent to annul death by His own blood shed against sin = death ......being finished on HIS cross and us taking up ours to know the Love of Gods power over death/hell and those being disciplined by Holy Spirit and fire correction everyone gets to experience life and death because GOD IS NO RESPECTER of persons .
My greatest comfort about death / hell [grave ] and gehenna/fiery judgments , has always been this one thing .
God allowed for me to know within and able to draw strength from it and times of wavering in the faith , because me being so very weak and unable to overcome in my own mind and strength , His own desires to do what He wants with His own things . namely His own creation , and new creation .
When reading the scriptures and to connect those , as a train of thought , both powerful and moving , God always knew and we do not ,,,, exactly what each of our lives would matter to Him and not return to Hm Void , but fulfill His will totally over this course of time and space , each in their own order would rise up out of hell/death because JESUS CHRIST being the WORD OF GOD
Isaiah 28:18 Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it.
For me, that is the unbelief and trusting in mankind's message and our own strength , that overflowing scourge of the dragons flood of lies against the TRUTH ..
God made everything good and right in the 6 days but the 7th day [GOD rested and JESUS CHRIST ] is finishing up the works till God be all in All. [LORD OF ALL the dead and living ] and holding them all within Himself , for By Him and though Him does everything exist
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. we are still in the throws of understanding GODS plan of the ages .
The day of the LORD is the LIGHT OF LIFE [1000 year reign ] Adams 960 death [in the day you eat of the tree of knowing of good and evil you shall surly die experiencing death + Babylons 70 captivity [set for captivity predestined for captivity and even death rev 13 10"If anyone is destined for captivity,
into captivity he will go;
if anyone is to die by the sword,
by the sword he must be killed. = some are set in this life for this very course not knowing if this was their end but it glories GOD in the earth , think of Jesus at that cross to the world it looked weak and beggarly , but the those whom believe the TRUTH setting them free , the faith was given to know and even now ,it is the power of GOD displayed in the earth as LIFE swallows up death in victory .
1000 year equals this ONE LAST DAY WORD of Life and the famine set for this WORD OF LIFE being in place and to overcome by the blood of Jesus not loving our mortal lives unto death but LIVE in the SPIRIT OF CHRIST LIFE for some even now , being called and predestined from the beginning ...
1 Cor 15 explains the mystery of resurrection fairly well and we are to also gather the food of Life from the scriptures in Colossians 1 for me to get this part here .
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
HIS LIFE and Holding all Life within Himself is swallowing up death even as we speak .because all things are His to do as he
pleases glorifying GOD ALWAYS in the complete and perfect works from the beginning making all things new and Living ... TILL GOD BE ALL IN ALL
Because Jesus always knew we are all born as poor blind miserable and naked and can do nothing of ourselves and without Him we can do nothing , in light and knowledge of God , every knee will bow and tongue confess Him because HE come to do the works of faith though us all Glorifying GOD ..
some do know now tasting His Love and Life in us and knowing all will be made complete because of Him .
FATHER KNOWS BEST, for sure .... we just have to wait on the Lord Jesus Christ and obey what we have been given so far and not loose hope and trust His perfect will . the DAY of the LORD judges all things [ 7th Day rest of God ] because the Sabbath [Holy ] day is when all the healing and raising the dead to Life in CHRIST IS done in . For me it is the anointed WORD OF TRUTH setting us all free whom believe it .
the Sabbath Day was made for mankind to restore all things back to the FATHER , not mankind for the Sabbath [Holy day
, Himself ] romans 14 everyday is HOLY to some as to holding the head in place and first and foremost..preeminence
the fact of surpassing all others; superiority. the LORD JESUS CHRIST IS HIS earthly name ........ but HE IS GODS WORD OF TRUTH IN everything , full of glory to God , to us whom will all believe in the end , making everything new AND LIVING in and though HIS OWN BODY, the Tree of Life . . in the garden of Gods good pleasure that everyone will eat of that DAY this day . the day of the Lord .
so sorry this is long ..but it is the bigger picture to me ... it is set a far off and yet so near to us all and relish in it, thinking of it . eating His Body and drinking His blood joyfully that we might too have Life in us .
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 07:42:43 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2019, 06:37:34 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
If you are an elected Calvinist why visit a doctor? Why eat? Isn't it better to die ASAP and be with the Lord?
paul debated whether to go or stay..i've wondered how he would "go" if he decided that was best
Quote from: DavidFord on January 31, 2019, 05:42:57 AM
There is a hell, and many people are there now. People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death.
so it sounds like you believe there is both an urgency and some unpleasant things to avoid
Dandelion, I agree with God's love and Him pursuing and empowering us. There are some other things in the scriptures though, that even though they may have further context/explanation, they were still written for a reason, as well as many of them are used in arguing against UR. The already-mentioned "wrath of God remains on them/wrath to come", and kolasin aionion Jesus spoke of. Also this; "fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna..."; And then there's this;
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Further thoughts?
I believe we will be judged and that there will be a need for transformation, for how many I don't know, which may well not be pleasant. But, it should not be our motivation for following Christ. That is what I am saying. I know that all of what is stated in the Bible is true, and needs to be understood.
D.
D.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:44:44 AM
...Understand what I'm getting at? Please discuss/explore.
I like what Eby Preston said about time.. that the Lord will through working upon the person spend all the time it takes to draw each one. I totally believe that! I think of "the judgment" as Jesus referred to it, as lasting 500 years.
I believe this because of the pattern of the ancient fall holy days (Lev.23). Since His first Advent so perfectly fulfilled the Spring ones.
But even without that, I can't think of the judgment as a flash in the pan (?) event (occasion?) [ :doh: I kind of like how old cliches one hasn't thought of or heard for decades, will pop up in ones head. :laughing7: ]
Revelation 20 talks about a first resurrection - "those that are His at his coming" - and how "the rest of the dead come not back to life until after the thousand years".
[Represented by the "10 days" between Trumpets and Day of Atonement (? imo)]
I think to rise after the thousand years, having "died in ones sins" thus rise "still in their sins" ...those of that rising, being in the same state they were in at their death and likely before. All range.. as is even now.
I think (especially, initially) this second resurrection (of Rev 20, "after the thousand years") is far less joyful and celebratory for the participants, than the "first" one (of Rev.20). "Outside the feast/banquet". Although there should be some happiness on some's part, to find theirself risen!
And since there is all range of folks who die before salvation/reconciliation, I think there will be the same range also post resurrection. Those who hate God at their death, I believe will hate God when they rise to the Judgment.
So lots of gnashing of teeth, weeping.. and even outer darkness..
To say nothing of the torments during this life.. And also how John the Baptist warned Pharisees, etc. saying "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come!" Which I have to think was not an after life prophecy, but of the 70 a.d. destruction of Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.. but I have read many times all the believers in our Lord remembered and recognized words of Jesus and left the city beforehand. And the way humankind is, and the 'advances' made.. fiery wrath yet again seems, to me, to be a logical prophecy. But it's kind of habitual to think of the wrath of God as being after life, but even now, those not saved, "the wrath of God remains upon them". Now. And what is it that remains upon one until salvation? Death. The "wages" of sin. Results of..
Every age seems to have its "foaming" side effects (social ills, etc) and sometimes fiery consequences of man's doings, called "war" (2nd horseman of the apocalypse, and of the age/CE, and in every age is a prominent element).
And by - conclusion - of the Judgment, those
still not "believing" I believe will go to the lake which burns with fire, where the false prophet (false prophecying/predicting/forecasting) and the larger beast of Rev. 13 are, having been cast there at Jesus' return.. the lake created for the devil and his angels..
But it's, I believe, habit, these days, to think of all, or at least most, judgment in terms of afterlife, and coincidentally, it's fiery judgment.. Or so it seems very coincidental to me.. And I kind of think of man"s capability to produce a lake of fire.. And at the universal "all in all" event, if one is not revivified, made totally new, "immortality and incorruption put on" - well, He is "a consuming fire".. So that may not be the most pleasant way of being refined.. Refiner's fire full force? gulp..
:2c:people need to research..Baal-bek, desert of Duda-el..Azazael/scapegoat etc..terms like abyss,angels bound/tartarus etc
will begin to make sense.Enoch also..LOF..and who goes in there and who doesn't.There's photos..and all kinds of imfo..
available at your fingertips..seek and ye shall find.These powers and principalities are still active.Earth is their prison house
where they await judgement..and many a man is their individual prison cell. THEY WILL BE SEPERATED FIRST.
...andps..these powers and principalities are behind many/all of the horrendous weapons of war that have been
andare being developed......as well as mind-manipulation,sonic weaponsetc...If you've ever seen a psychopath..you have
witnessed their nature/character.They are predators/parasites..and man and animals their prey.satan going about like a
lion seeking whom he may devour is TRUTH!! :2c:
....amen psychopaths.. I never thought of it that way, definitely true.. definitely predator..
PS - urgency - in new, New Testament Days, also was the getting the gospel into the world, to all nations.. a new thing bursting upon the scene.. and changed the world. (The first horseman of the apocalypse/prevalent element of the latter age (CE) gone and going forth conquering and to conquer, openly victorious over (those predatory) powers and principalities..)
Amen !! God bless you all with more of Him , to the full ....................... :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The last days men shall be lovers of themselves and disobedient to Gods gift being the love Jesus come to show us How eating the tree of life would save us .
Eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil was making everyone DEAD before God . Only doing like Jesus did could make you righteous and alive before God , Jesus raised the dead to Life with LOVE , not hate and judgement adding sin error to error ...
the woman caught in the act of adultery , Jesus forgave her and told her not to sin no more lest a worse thing come upon her , showing me the judgements of God are in the earth in the here and now . by letting her live , but those ready to judge her and kill her were also full of sin and death full of self -righteousness and unjust judges spreading HATE making more errors and death or adding sin to sin .. wages of sin is death .twice dead ? appearing as holy before men but full of dead people that they kill with words of harsh judgments and claiming to be right with God ! being respecter of persons James 2 ........
Jesus WORDS made everyone guilty before GOD ........ under the old law , there is none righteous no not one =as dead ..... but the new and living way was to forgive and show mercy in the love of God to the sinner
I find that beautiful , because Jesus forgive her , but added a STRONG WORD of advice , do not let a worse thing happen come upon you by deliberately continuing to sin /error more death if you do not obey His Voice and live .
2 Tim 3
Evil in the Last Days
1But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come.
2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good,
4traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!
6They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions,
7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth.
They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith.
9But they will not advance much further.
For just like Jannes and Jambres, their folly will be plain to everyone.
Sounds to me in here the rewards of obedience to Gods love though Jesus Christ is to advance further into the Spiritual powers that heal the sick , raise the dead to life again and speak with new tongues ,
that would be love and forgiveness of sins , such as love your enemies and do good at every opportunity perhaps and BE LIKE JESUS .....Pleasing the Father and not so much men pleasers whom group up and pack mentality . such as those judging the woman caught in the act of sin , would that be bearing false witness because they were as guilty as she was in their
darkened hearts and ready to condemn anyone whom was NOT like them .. if the light of the eye is not single , than the whole body is full of darkness and how great is that darkness .
Babylon twist the scriptures to make it work for them , not single eye = Light /true towards GOD and pleasing Him , but gossipers /slanderers among themselves acting in more sin /error .
If we realize our error /sin and show mercy, we can also obtain mercy from GOD ,
if we repent from the error of our doing and not be judged along with the world ....
the spirit of the world is the proof of sin /error , a great darkness and not light but lie in their hearts deceiving themselves and others and basically working against the LORD JESUS CHRIST whom gathers together in ONE SPIRIT and not scatters making folks feel hurt & hated , fearful and separated as alone in the world .
1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.
For many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.
This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.
4You, little children, are from God and have overcome them, because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5They are of the world.
That is why they speak from the world's perspective, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception.
So it is listening to HIS VOICE AND LIVE and careful how and to whom we listen in others .
the voice of many waters from above , water of Life freely
and the waters from below that are earthly sensual and devilish .............
Quote from: DavidFord on January 31, 2019, 05:42:57 AM
There is a hell, and many people are there now. People that die and go to hell will eventually be rescued, but before that happens they'll suffer lots of pain during their stay there.
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's healing, both physical and spiritual. It's good to work hard to see that Jesus gets _this side of the grave_ the most return for his investment of suffering and humility. Jesus came to bring life, abundant life, and people on earth walking in spiritual darkness, or living with physical or persistent emotional pain, aren't living with abundant life.
Working to get people out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light this side of the grave spares those transferred from any suffering following death. Spiritual progress can rapidly be made in this life; after death, spiritual progress is possible, but occurs much more slowly. See Peter Tan's _The Spiritual World_, available online as a PDF.
Quote"We love because He loved us first."
Not fear of anything, but love of God, and the overflow of that is love of our neighbor.
1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.
20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.
I think the above pretty much covers this question.
Fear or terror is not of God, but of the devil. I am not speaking here of a healthy fear of God, stemming from respect. Fear should not be our motive. Fear is a self-centered existence. Love reaches out and takes us into a realm of living for others and for God. God's grace abounds and sends us on a journey of learning what love is and how to do it.
D.
Abundant life to me causes more life to come from what God has already supplied .
Amen sis!!
Perfect Love keeps no record of wrongdoing !!!!!!!!!!! LOVE our enemies and do good always that comes from Gods own Spirit of Life ... would God not do exactly as we are told to do also like love enemies and keep no record of wrongs , God is Love , right ? !!
4Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs.
6Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth.
7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.
praying for more LOVE OF GOD to fill us all to overflowing peace like a river !!!!!!!! peace calms and makes us children of the Father :HeartThrob: Matt 5 He said:
3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for
theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Do we see this last verse as a promise to come or as given as obedience to Jesus judgments now ?
I have considered both the Judgment seat of Christ , being obedience to Him in the here and now and great white Throne judgment is given to those whom reject Jesus Words that judge us in mercy .
for me the great white throne judgment is heaven as a witness , Gods word says heaven IS My throne and the earth is His footstool , but if the old heaven and earth are no more , this to me is the tree of knowlege of good and evil , remove the evil from the good in the tree by fire , Holy Spirit and Fire,,,,,, God is also a consuming fire .
here is the scriptures that do describe the great white throne , it is all that are gathered already to me in GODS SPIRIT the HOLY ONE SPIRIT where new life is given .
the new heaven is making all things new from the new testament rev 21 5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."!!!!!!!! this comes from the vision John wrote down for our own benefit whom read the Word of God that judges us all righteously ,the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and, though they seem to die, their hope is full of immortality.!! as faith , hope and Love keep the body soul and Spirit alive and as ONE from GOD
Revelation 20:10-15 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from
whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
For me to understand this is JESUS CHRIST
IS reconciling all things now sitting on the throne with His Father
2 Corinthians 5:18–20; Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 1:20–21
18 All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, owe are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
21 zAnd you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
I am persuaded now is the time to shine as a Light in the world , not some time after our mortal death comes
I believe that may well be happening , all the scriptures are being filled now , what age to come that has not grace already being given or shown ?
Matthew 12:32
Christ said that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven, "either in this age, or in the age to come".
I believe it is this age being those still under the law of sin and death , that still applies from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the age to come is the age of mercy and grace that is eating from the tree of Life again that was taken away when sin first entered the age of innocence ..before the law come and before sin entered paradise . 7 days and 3 ages ?
Jesus spoke of the 3 days of raising the temple , you are Gods temple
what if the age of innocence before the law came to put us to death because of disobedience was where the forgiveness of sin comes by grace though mercy , but must also show that same mercy to everyone also ?
none can be worthy except by GOD giving us the ability to overcome by the blood of Jesus , would that apply to all if God is no respecter of person ? He tasted death for everyman , we have not tasted death for everyman , but is that not the goal to be like Him ? despising the shame , and yet obedient to the will of God even to death of our own wills and desires and opinions as we also take up our cross ?
John 2 Jesus Cleanses the Temple
...18On account of this, the Jews demanded, "What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?" 19Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again." 20"This temple took forty-six years to build," the Jews replied, "and You are going to raise it up in three days?"...
taking us back to innocence before the word begun ! the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world began .. this world that shall be no more .
HE becomes our foundation of truth in innocence .
doubt is a killer of faith for sure ... we are to believe without doubting , anything not of faith in Him and His Words of Life is sin /error it seems ..
well...thankfully the Good News of the salvation of all does not preach condemnation of men..does it?For God doesnot
overly despise His CAPTIVE PEOPLE...they,too,shall be set free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
God is good and causes his sun/son to shine on both good and bad men[prodigals]
Parableofthe weddingbanquetMatt 22...........go tothe street corners and invitete tothe wedding banquet anyone you find....
and gathered all the people they could find..both good and bad.
bad figs can hardly be eaten..and will not eat.........men not clothed with love for thier fellowmen/captive brethren..well....
their fithy rags of self-righteous will not allow them to eat/rejoice at the prodigals return.They become offended..anddo
not enter the joy of their Master.We all know those faithful in a fewthings shall be faithful in many [willonly a few be saved,Lord] Matt
25;21 you have been faithful in afew things......I will put you in charge of many things.
now I know demon-possessed men[captivesofthedevil] ..are many[legion] andmany take the broad path of destruction .......
But I don't see that as a problem...I believe faith the size of a mustrd seed can move the mountain of curses and it will be thrown into
the molten sea/LOF
Romans12;14 Bless those who persecute you,bless and do not curse. :2c:
is spiritual progress slow after death?or shall we ALL BE CHANGED IN TWINKLING OF AN EYE?I would think unhindered by this body
of death weak and corruptible would be an advatage? :2c:
Psalms 146;7 He upholds the cause of the oppressed[authoritarian harsh judgement/treatment] and gives food to the hungry.
The LORD sets prisoners free,the Lord gives sight to the blind.The Lord lifts up those who are bowed down
The Lord loves the righteous
there are many hungering and thirsting for righteousness right now.Give them a cold drink of the water of life[freegift]..wemust 'visit'the
the many sinsick in prison,and tell them 'nothing can separate them from the Loveof God shown in Jesus Christ."
we must give the bread of life unto all men and cover their nakedness...and make an end of sin...
LIFE MUST SWALLOW UP DEATH
Jesusmake a distinction between a sheep[man]and a goat[demons possessing him]and we must too. :2c:
Praise the Lord.
Let us hold on unswervingly to the hope we profess[salvation of all men]for He who promised is faithful.And let us consider how we may
spur on one another toward love and good deeds.
LET US NOT GIVE UP THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGATHER..as some are in the habit of doing-but let us encourage one another-
and ALL THE MORE as you see the day approaching.
My Father's House is a house of prayer for ALL MEN...Matt 12;30Ephesians 1;9,10
He who is not with me is against me,and he who does not gather with me scatters
and He made known to us the mystery of His will,according unto His good pleasure, he purposed in CHRIST..to be put into effect
when the times will have reached their fulfillment TO BRING ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH TO_GATHER
UNDER ONE HEAD
Lots of interesting discussion :)
marie especially as it's kind of your thing as you've talked of a coming 500 year period based on your studies, but anyone else that may want to chime in of course. I realize not all believe there's any type of punishment/ongoing correction in the next age. I do, although i'm certainly not sure what it looks like or how long it is. i do think it's different for everyone, as some for instance who have never heard, yet have a tender ready heart, I believe will almost immediately recognize and accept Jesus for Who He is and kneel and confess. Others...
Anyway, just the past couple of days I've been thinking about the scripture that is used as one of the main "guns" by ET against UR - and I admit, even for UR believers it can pose a bit of a challenge. I know I've struggled over it. The scripture is Matthew 25:46, which reads in the KJV "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The ET argument is, the duration is the same for both - FOREVER/ETERNAL, so that means since the saved have eternal life, then it's everlasting torment to the unsaved. Of course a more literal rendering is "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
So the question/suggestion - this verse is not talking about "eternity/forever" at all, but rather about an age, a specific period of time that ends and then next things occur. I.e., that the next age (Marie I've seen you suggest 500 years based on your studies) will be a time when those unbelieving will be brought to belief through whatever means God has chosen (kolasin aionion), while the believers/saved/those called "righteous" in the scriptures [HIS righteousness bestowed through grace to those believing], will spend that time in "life" (whatever God has chosen that to be as well).
So again, the duration is indeed the same, but it's not talking yet about "eternity", so there's no ET "proof" or real conflict. More so that then, when that age is up, the next things happen..immortality, consummation, All in All, etc. >>> Eph 2:7 "so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
I believe after death is not the end of learning for anyone, "saved" or "unsaved," I don't think any punishment is imposed by God but is instead a result of cause and effect and shedding our "filthy garments," and any difficulty in the end will be seen looking back as necessary and I can imagine even being graceful for it, though at the time it will be seen as anguish by a self centered or unloving person.
But I think the Bible is mostly silent on after death matters, on purpose, because our purpose on earth is not to sit around waiting for the after life, but to live here and now in LOVE, and I believe Jesus's message is for us to do it NOW on earth, and that is the urgency. It's not to save ourselves from hell, it's to live a life following Christ now to help others around us and further along the kingdom of heaven on earth.
I believe a lot of these verses need to be taken into context, in that Jesus spoke these words to Jews in a specific time and place. They were still in the age of law, so the next age was the one we are currently in, the age of grace, and the punishment of THIS age is that those unbelieving do not have a part of the grace and "heaven" NOW, the peace that surpasses all understanding NOW when we trust in God and allow the HS in our hearts and emulate Jesus.
We can look around and see that in this age, some are being perfected in LOVE and for me that shows the pattern that will happen for all.
But this doesn't make it easier. I'm struggling with my mom's suffering horrific illness, MusicLover is suffering with health problems and feeling oppresssed, Rose spoke of coming out of a baptism of sorts where she was suffering. We look BACK and see the purpose of God chastising those he loves, but in the moment it feels a lot more like "my God, why have you forsaken me?"
One more thing,
I now think of these trials as exercise to strengthen our spirit or soul.
When we are weak, building up strength is hard and muscles hurt, we get tired, we want to give up.
But after continually going through the fire/going through trial/exercising our spiritual muscles, it will become easy and then our job is to help others and lift them up.
Jesus is our trainer, he helps us, shows us the way, leads us, lightens the load for us sometimes, but allows more of a challenge when we knows we can do it.
Now we need Jesus, but I believe he wants us to eventually be like him, in which case our job would be what his job was, to help those needing help.
John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
In the next line it says whatever we ask through him will be granted, so he's there for us as help and support always.
1 John 3:16
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers
John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
1 Peter 2:21
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.
Jesus wants us to emulate him. To eventually be like him. He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Bro James ,
I am so glad you brought this up ! Thank you for an opportunity to speak freely .
This was always my own greatest fears while serving an ET church or any''church '' with the right motive of the heart , you can be set free
How my own nagging and tormenting thoughts were ''captive '' to FEAR in the false churches[ Babylon the harlot of the earth and all her daughters ] captivity and death holding captive and be cast into punishment forever /age .
Thinking the only true Church is the BODY OF CHRIST it is the only living to GOD in the whole earth and true witness
The Holy Spirit makes you think differently , when you listen and careful how you hear His Voice .
You consider many scriptures and when they ''quicken '' your feel the leaping of faith[our holy substance ] rise up in power over death / stinking thinking .
The scriptures describe , the kingdom of heaven as , peace and joy and the Holy Spirit [Romans 14 ] our first major clue of being in Gods good graces and eating of the Body of Christ [ or the tree of Life ] it is more than just eating because what is faith without the works of faith in what the LORD has provided for us a way of escape.......... that was never given to those whom were under the old covenant of knowledge of good and evil ,
there is none that are righteous there is none whom understands , ironically this applies to us all even in this time , still pressing our way into the tree of life , that ONLY JESUS / the flaming Sword protecting the way to the tree of Life to grant access to eternal life though Himself
that is being obedient to the VOICE OF THE WORD/Lord Jesus Christ and as sheep we do follow ... the age of law tree of knowledge of good and evil has many tutors and teachers we get to hear but they lead us to Christ ,
only when we choose to do the good required and not do the evil ... you will not advance any farther if you do the evil , but if you are faithful in a few things the Lord will give you more power of the Holy Spirit over many other things when you obey His commandments , love your enemies etc pray for them etc [ Matt5 ] some basic rules and standards to obtain ,
Heavenly realms of thoughts while still living in a mortal body , by being in the grace of God that age that was to come , that Jesus set in motion by HIS CROSS /the perfect sacrifice of GOD , there is no other sacrifice to enter the glory of the LORD , it is a done deal , you can only obtain this age , because of what the FATHER did by proving His love for the world and it has continued forth ''forever as an open invitation '' for anyone to enter though the LORD JESUS CHRIST , but it has chastisements and rules to follow and rebukes as well as rewards , the fulness of Christ [anointing of the Holy Spirit is to be just like Him ] No one is above His master / Lord .GOD THE FATHER chose to have all the fullness dwell till the time of the end
It is being hated by the word and dead to it ,but ALIVE IN CHRIST eph 2 ;7 "eternal riches] , or being tempted by the worldly pleasures [temporary riches ] and being dead to God we cannot serve two masters'Lords , you will love one and hate the other , it is written
Here is the hardest part to do and the easiest part to understand for to grasp , the whole LAW IS TO LOVE God and everything GOD made , all people all the time ....... especially the ones giving you tons of troubles in your life ...
Here is the kicker , we are so weak in flesh and faith to overcome ... If YOU BREAK ANY ONE LAW , YOU BROKE THEM ALL !!!
This is a setting up for total failure of doing anything in your own strength and power over the Body of Death ..
proving to me the test can only be won when GOD IS FIRST AND FOREMOST IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and doing the works of faith for you , that need for Him to go beyond anything else is impossible and only fooling yourselves .. there is none righteous no not ONE! Romans 3 None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
none of us have salvation of our own selves it can only be though faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and clinging to Him for every thought and need and desire ,,, we become worthless to Gods use when we break the law of LOVE
Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word:
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.This is exactly what ''troubles '' and torture I am just now coming out of for over a year now ........... and have failed the test , in my own abilities to obtain , MERCY ON ALL is all I scream out to GOD ...... Paul was worried about being disqualified as well , and feel his pain big time ... because LOVE is the only thing that matters to GOD , The very best we can do is ask God to Love like He loves and give ourselves also as an offering to love the most unlovable at times , as we all become to one another and FORGIVE above all else , unless you want to stay in the wrong ... He will Not cast us off forever Lam 3 Jeremiah's Hope
...30Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him; let him be filled with reproach. 31For the Lord will not cast us off forever. 32Even if He causes grief, He will show compassion according to His abundant loving devotion....
I DO ALSO BELIEVE some will be ashamed of their nakedness and filthy rags in the day the WORD JUDGES RIGHTEOUSLY For those not knowing or chosen out of the world , they are also given the free gift of eternal life , because GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSON EVER ........ and CHRIST DIED FOR ALL , LOVING THE WORLD HE created for His Glory and ONLY GOD WILL BE EXALTED in THAT DAY
John 12 Belief and Unbelief
...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world,
but to save the world. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....
That powerful truth , A LIVING WORD ''come to save the world ''! with the sacrifice of Himself , for me as I understand it now , it is those Alive in Christ now that will never see death and those whom died the same death His cross , because they did not love their lives in the worldly pleasures [rise first ] He did are already risen the moment they are released from their mortal body of death [flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God ....
When I read their souls are under the alter in Revelation 6:9-11 , I see the symbolism of the predestined by God before the foundation of the world began , they had the Christ anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT moving in them as the chosen ones that lives were set for the WORD OF GOD to remain true to itself , those are apart of the great white throne judgment seat in heaven already granted , when we get to the part in the bible when the disciples were arguing where they would want to sit
Jesus told them mark 10 , you have to come as a little child able to learn of Him , such are the kingdom of heaven and this important clue
37They answered, "Grant that one of us may sit at Your right hand and the other at Your left in Your glory."
38"You do not know what you are asking," Jesus replied. "Can you drink the cup I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?"
39"We can," the brothers answered.
"You will drink the cup that I drink," Jesus said, "and you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo. 40But to sit at My right or left is not Mine to grant.
These seats belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
What God has ordained cannot nor will ever fail ......... it was already predestined before the world/ages began even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy ... In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, ... own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
we did not chose God but God chose us to learn of Him for His glory , and have now what many could only hope to know and have , but God will give everyone the same gift of Light and knowledge of God , because He does not HATE His creation ,only the evil that Paul claims was dwelling in him and had no power over , but was aware of overcoming him , this evil and asking for Gods grace to reign , showing His faith and Hope was alive and LOVE would be able to conquer the sin in him as everyone else reading his witness could also relate to when made aware .
Love overcomes the world though Jesus Christ , our way of escape , God made for those whom ask Him . He is the Way and Truth and the Life ...... everything God says is TRUTH ..
for me the age of grace is without end .... none will prevail without Gods good grace and favor ....
until the final complete and perfect LOVE by grace is made known to all ..
I think of it as a waking up out of a long sleep , they are like the dead and unaware of their surroundings , do not know what is going on at all , , because the Light is shining so brightly and the voices are loudly celebrating , who can sleep in all of that ? being allowed to join in the celebration at long last . the first shall be last and the last shall be first , the harlots and tax collectors will enter the kingdom of God before the religious spirits will , their beating the fellow servers and opinions did not save them till the end , when God will be all in all ........ because everyone served God in one way or the other , proving the TRUTH is a true and Holy Witness . How can iniquity abound and yet grace abounds the more ? how can lawlessness regin and the love of many grow cold without those captive to do its work of evil that God allowed to happen on purpose
To make the truth the TRUTH , We are to learn to HATE EVIL in the earth and how many will realize just how much evil had that hold on them !! as if they are immune to it ??! no way God turns some over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so in the DAY OF THE LORD their spirits are saved and not lost any longer .
Would you not want the same salvation for yourselves and your own family , whom you love no matter how much they have put you though ? or more so how much they have put the Lord Jesus Christ though , tasting death for every man , that LOVE of God has covered a multitude of sin throughout the ages by the grace of God . and if the gift is really a gift , and has no other attachments , would not the HOLY SPIRIT give that good and perfect gift to every knee bowing before it in a thankful and very aware moment of celebration of a new Life , For all that is lost has been found in Jesus Christ the very perfect work of LOVE , Whom GOD IS .
I hate how long these posts get , I am so sorry , I am so long winded ... :sigh:
QuoteLots of interesting discussion :)
marie especially as it's kind of your thing as you've talked of a coming 500 year period based on your studies, but anyone else that may want to chime in of course. I realize not all believe there's any type of punishment/ongoing correction in the next age. I do, although i'm certainly not sure what it looks like or how long it is. i do think it's different for everyone, as some for instance who have never heard, yet have a tender ready heart, I believe will almost immediately recognize and accept Jesus for Who He is and kneel and confess. Others...
Anyway, just the past couple of days I've been thinking about the scripture that is used as one of the main "guns" by ET against UR - and I admit, even for UR believers it can pose a bit of a challenge. I know I've struggled over it. The scripture is Matthew 25:46, which reads in the KJV "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The ET argument is, the duration is the same for both - FOREVER/ETERNAL, so that means since the saved have eternal life, then it's everlasting torment to the unsaved. Of course a more literal rendering is "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
So the question/suggestion - this verse is not talking about "eternity/forever" at all, but rather about an age, a specific period of time that ends and then next things occur. I.e., that the next age (Marie I've seen you suggest 500 years based on your studies) will be a time when those unbelieving will be brought to belief through whatever means God has chosen (kolasin aionion), while the believers/saved/those called "righteous" in the scriptures [HIS righteousness bestowed through grace to those believing], will spend that time in "life" (whatever God has chosen that to be as well).
So again, the duration is indeed the same, but it's not talking yet about "eternity", so there's no ET "proof" or real conflict. More so that then, when that age is up, the next things happen..immortality, consummation, All in All, etc. >>> Eph 2:7 "so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
It is the ages to me where our GOD of grace has shown mercy and favor , we see this is in the WORD all the time .
I see the evil part being separated by God in everyone [Hebrews 4 ] and Because God is Love and a consuming fire also very descriptive in His own nature , we also are given the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE baptism , everyone will be given it because God is no respecter of person , the fire burns in jealousy over us , His children , His own creation and the thing is
descriptive of a burning in our hearts [ to me each lake of fire , not an ocean or sea of fire , but a lake as to the individual in whom God sets the separation in .
The division Jesus describes in Luke 12 within our own household , many under the old law are the in laws ,AS RULERS over the body , where good and evil work within us and they are divided against each other , love and hate , good and evil and life and death and many parallels and duality working in us all , till the good work remains and the evil is done way with in Christ overcoming the world /ages and seated on the throne of our hearts ruling and reigning supreme and preeminent
conquering all the evil forces that tempt us and lusty desires of pride of life , as if we are better off than anyone else is .
Paul said he was no better off than anyone else and being made a spectacle for all to see .
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
over our lives to me ......... satan the adversary to JESUS CHRIST and is antichrist and is a spirit of prideful rulership over our hearts when we are respecter of persons , the self righteousness we all must examine ourselves and see if we are truly in the faith and the workings of the Holy Spirit and fire and refiners fire for sure , burning off the dross , that useless and worthless filth clinging to the stones of fire .
2 Corinthians 2:14
But thanks be to God, who always leads us triumphantly as captives in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him.
The sweet smelling flavor of Gods grace and covering on the sin
Ephesians 3:10
His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
that is why no man should rule over you ...especially the man of sin !!! being taught of God though His Holy Spirit and fire , the fire is good for the Holy ones but bad for the sin /evil that dwells in us all [GOD IS FAIR THAT WAY ] thus the need for the new heavens and earth that we are partakers of even partaking of this heavenly gift though the Holy SPIRIT in the here and now to some degrees By the grace of God and seeing Jesus as our LORD !! too many get hung up on theories and doctrines and schemes that keeps them stuck in captivity to that kind of thinking and sadly to their harm .
Ephesians 4:8
This is why it says: "When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men."
I see this as the power of His cross ! :banana: death could never hold Him , just those 3 days while in the heart of the earth and reconciling the world /ages to the Father .. because to me I see the scriptures as truth in the sense of this .. JESUS CHRIST IS fulfilling all the law .........
this could not be any clearer to me as HE SPOKE THEM OUT LOUD! for us to hear also
Matthew 5:17-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I see this age of grace coming to those whom obey His words and I have not done them and it has been brewing for over a year now , as death had a hold of me and could not speak nor hear , but the fire was burning hot and heavy till just now a breakthrough and a cold cup of water in Jesus name come to comfort in the most strange of ways . Gods grace comes when it comes to make you aware , comfort and heal till you pay that last penny .
What better way to learn but though personal experiences ? How may times have we got caught up in our own words judging us a liar ? for me many times and failed the test of TRUTH and stumbled in one point and broke them all and become scattered in thoughts and confusion as to why Lord ? why do I always fail you ? can I come clean search me out and if there be any unclean thing please remove it with your fire of jealous love , because you know I love you , we are to confess our sins before one another and God is faithful to forgive us , everyone will confess their sins , even if it is the last hour when the trial comes to us and judged for the quick and righteous work of Jesus Christ .
Colossians 1:16
For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I do believe even the evil can and does serve Gods purpose even now , How else are we going to learn to hate it unless we experience its works ? If it be in others or found also in ourselves rising up ?
Colossians 2:10
And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
For me , this is a fact we all find ourselves facing in many ways and times , over and over till we get it .....
for Him or against Him we cannot lie against the truth
only bitterness and anger comes from failing the Lord our desire is this for real
1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
keep praying there are many messengers of satan and thorns in the flesh , painful to endure , but there is nothing like being rejected of the LORD and we do not wish that on our worst enemy .........
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 02, 2019, 02:17:36 PM
I believe after death is not the end of learning for anyone, "saved" or "unsaved," I don't think any punishment is imposed by God but is instead a result of cause and effect and shedding our "filthy garments," and any difficulty in the end will be seen looking back as necessary and I can imagine even being graceful for it, though at the time it will be seen as anguish by a self centered or unloving person.
But I think the Bible is mostly silent on after death matters, on purpose, because our purpose on earth is not to sit around waiting for the after life, but to live here and now in LOVE, and I believe Jesus's message is for us to do it NOW on earth, and that is the urgency. It's not to save ourselves from hell, it's to live a life following Christ now to help others around us and further along the kingdom of heaven on earth.
I believe a lot of these verses need to be taken into context, in that Jesus spoke these words to Jews in a specific time and place. They were still in the age of law, so the next age was the one we are currently in, the age of grace, and the punishment of THIS age is that those unbelieving do not have a part of the grace and "heaven" NOW, the peace that surpasses all understanding NOW when we trust in God and allow the HS in our hearts and emulate Jesus.
We can look around and see that in this age, some are being perfected in LOVE and for me that shows the pattern that will happen for all.
But this doesn't make it easier. I'm struggling with my mom's suffering horrific illness, MusicLover is suffering with health problems and feeling oppresssed, Rose spoke of coming out of a baptism of sorts where she was suffering. We look BACK and see the purpose of God chastising those he loves, but in the moment it feels a lot more like "my God, why have you forsaken me?"
:girlheart: That is what I have been trying to say!!!!!!!!!!!!
:HeartThrob: We were typing and posting at the same time :dsunny:
so many clouds of witnesses !! Gods judgments are in the earth[ there are scriptures of this very thing ] , our earthen bodies ? those that have everything are still not content ! they want more need more got to be forceful and hatful to obtain more and more and yet it is never enough for the the curse of old adam , the world cannot fill the void , only GOD can and will and does
the abundant life is in the peace and joy and Love of God though Christ ...
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 02, 2019, 02:29:02 PM
One more thing,
I now think of these trials as exercise to strengthen our spirit or soul.
When we are weak, building up strength is hard and muscles hurt, we get tired, we want to give up.
But after continually going through the fire/going through trial/exercising our spiritual muscles, it will become easy and then our job is to help others and lift them up.
Jesus is our trainer, he helps us, shows us the way, leads us, lightens the load for us sometimes, but allows more of a challenge when we knows we can do it.
Now we need Jesus, but I believe he wants us to eventually be like him, in which case our job would be what his job was, to help those needing help.
John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
In the next line it says whatever we ask through him will be granted, so he's there for us as help and support always.
1 John 3:16
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers
John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
1 Peter 2:21
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.
Jesus wants us to emulate him. To eventually be like him. He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Same message of keeping our hope alive as more of HIM is given by grace , what a blessing , He has blessed us all to know and do in His Holy name ....
His WORD will not return to Him void , but with real purpose .... :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I also think there's urgency because the commission I think is one which is from the time He gave it, until very end of Judgment Day (imo, age). And the danger of actually rebelling and never being reconciled is a true possibility.
It's all psychological, I think. If we read how Jesus was healing poor sick folks, and the Pharisees said, "His power comes from the evil one".. - it's a clue, as to what the unable to be forgiven sin is.. a cold hardness of heart that actually hates God. All just my opinion or ruminating, of course. That ultimately perhaps, the lof is death itself, where all would go if not for God's gracious intervention (yet a journey all must take, this learning of good from evil).
It seems to me like part of the lesson is the very seriousness of the matter! That it's God's Way or no way. Life or death. Hence the strict parenting of the Old Testament, the seriousness of national judgments, and scriptures like the smoke of destruction will rise up for ever and ever (age to age) (never forgotten?) ..."they will look upon the dead bodies and be abhorred.." That the way/road other than His, can only ever be tribulation and apocalypse (ruin, destruction).
This doesn't take away from HIS goodness, love and mercy.. He is simply the wisest of teachers and parent. But it's a very real and urgent commission and message! He is life and He has to be on the throne for there to be "life".
And all the while.. if Jesus be lifted up from the Earth He will draw all to Himself.. for God, is the savior of all.. i still see / imagine a 'time' when all in heaven and earth will be utterly silent around or before His throne in stunned awe.. then of course rise up in a crescendo of praise, glory and thanksgiving.. (because Perfect cannot lose anything.)
I'm sorry I haven't had time to read the rest of the thread :( it looks like a very nice conversation. :gsmile: So good to see sister Rosie on here! ..and the Lord bless GiL..
PS -
Matthew 9:36-37 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were [a]weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.."
(also)Urgency to relieve the people's hardships due to being sheep with no shepherd..
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:35:06 AM
One thing that has been brought up that IMO, is a legitimate and pertinent question; "if there's no hell, why the urgency or need to believe on Jesus in this lifetime"? "Why did the apostles live lives that ended in martyrdom, if there's no urgency to know Jesus now"?
I acknowledge;
1) some believe there is no hell
2) some believe hell is a made up word (me :laugh:)
3) some believe "now" is "hell", i.e., consequences of this life
4) many believe hell/damnation is forever and inescapable
5) some believe "hell" completely annihilates forever
6) many etceteras
Disclaimer - I do not believe in a works based salvation (rather, it's a free gift, including the faith to believe). However, I do believe we are responsible for responding to and living in obedience to what we have been given and are led to do, exercising our faith through trust and choice. Also, that we are given the word of reconciliation "be ye reconciled to God!", and "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?".
That said, (even though I don't personally like the word itself) what if there is a sort of "hell" that is to be avoided though belief on Jesus as Savior? In other words, what if the temporary correction/punishment Jesus talked about, is worth the urgency of responding affirmatively to His call in this life if/when it is given; and the faith provided by Him to be acted upon/received instead of rejected/ignored?
John 3:36 YLT he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'
I Thes. 1:10 NIV and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
A few of things I recall;
1. (Member/Moderator) Cardinal talking about revelation she has about correction/discipline in the next age for those who have done certain things that haven't been corrected in this life.
2. Also, I recall an account on Lighthouse.org about a near death experience, where it was reported having observed those in a sort of "hellish place", being disciplined, working through things, coming to a place of finally fully looking to Jesus.
3. J. Preston Eby, in his Savior of the World/Kingdom series on TM, talking about man's disobedience, and how that no matter how long it takes in the next age(s) that God will break that stubborn will, until all have knelt in obedience before the cross of Christ. He says the Kingdom of God is not (paraphrased) a walk in the park/something to be considered lightly, but that submitting to Christ as Savior and following Jesus as Lord (of course, only as He empowers, not in our own flesh/works) - obedience/looking to Him - is a serious and "bloody" (His blood) proposition.
In other words, maybe there is an urgency after all? That in preaching the gospel, we may actually be helping people avoid a "wrath that remains AND is coming" upon those who don't believe?
Worth discussion? Blessings.
Further disclaimer; this is not meant to be a word of condemnation or pushing a Law or works based effort to salvation. But rather, one of perhaps reconciling the conflict between "should we share the gospel", and if so, why; as well as, "universalists say everyone's going to be saved anyway, so what's the point in worrying about it"? Maybe it's not just peaches and cream for everyone, i.e., "some will receive many stripes".... Understand what I'm getting at? Please discuss/explore.
I myself prefer your long version and I also agree with you on point #2, so here is my two cents
"fear of the unknown" is the darkness (Sheol) in which the mind of man can go, for it is the nature of man to do so
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (sheol), behold, thou art there. (Psalms 139:8)we know that there are things that "are" unknown, but do we reside in His Spirit of hope in the words "there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed" AND have we entered into His rest, KNOWING that all will be revealed (either in this age or the age to come)?
Do we wait upon the Lord, knowing that even though we may not know something now ... we will know it?
Do we create our own "urgency", the urgency of there being "a time limit" to know?
It is my belief that the "urgency" of knowing Jesus as our Savior, is to save us from creating that "time limit" in our own mind, because is that not part of the foundation upon which ET is based ... that there is "a time limit"?
And if a young believer who believes in God (because God revealed Himself to them) creates that time limit in the mind, creates that seed and plants it in their heart, (or was given it) they can easily be swayed to believe in ET.
To be saved from the wrath to come, in which the original meaning of the word "wrath" is desire ... understood as "to be saved from the desire to come", would not the urgency be: to be saved from "the desire" to create that time limit?
When the nature of man puts a time limit on this physical life, that in itself will cause the "fear of death" to grow in our hearts
And that the "urgency" to know Christ is to keep that spirit ... the spirit of the fear of death from coming alive and taking over, for is it not that "strong man" that drives the urgency "to hurry up and do something"?
For me, to enter into His rest is to KNOW there is no urgency to know except one, the urgency to know HOW MUCH HE LOVES US and by that all other things will be revealed in their proper time, either in this time(age) to reinforce how much He loves us while our physically body is alive OR in the time(age) to come after the death of our physical body.
Absent from the body, present with the Lord which I believe will be the full revealing "OF" how much He loves us. And the consequence of that sin of "not knowing" how much He loved us while we were in this physical body is to realize how our physical life was wasted on not reinforcing the knowledge of "how much He loves us".
Focus on the things above "HOW MUCH HE LOVES US" not on the things below "the fear of death and a time limit of this physical life"
again, my :2c:
:thumbsup: yes,LOVE IS PATIENT :2c:
LUKE8;16Noonelights alamp and puts it under a bed.Instead,he puts it on a stand,so that those who come in can see the light.
FOR THERE IS NOTHING HIDDEN THAT WILL NOT BE DISCLOSED,AND NOTHING CONCEALED THAT WILL NOT BE KNOWN
OR BROUGHT OUT INTO THE OPEN. Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has[love?/fear?truth?] will be given more
Whoever has[Love fear,truth?]will be given more. Whoever does not have,even what he thinks he has...will be taken from him.
Listen..the ones He deals with on this side He expects more from..because He called us to be lights. Therefore we get more stripes
[discipline] than the children He is not directly dealing with at this time. Wrong attitudes and behavior He will not let slide..Hewill
correct and gives us attitude adjustments
Now Israel was supposed to be a light unto the nations......and when God sent Jesus to adjust wrong attitudes..they would not listen
put to death Jesus and those who did listen. They thought they would continue with their own'form of worship"andrecieved
many stripes...and it was taken away from them.If the light that be inyou be darkness
Christendom is in the same situation...as are any of us called on this side.HIS NAME IS INVOLVED..His character,His dignity
His glory.People are drawn to light,but if the church be darkness.
as far as I can see those describedin2Timothych 3 Lovers of themselves,loversofmoney,boastful,proud,abusive,disobedient
to their parents[call no man your Father but God,Wisdom your Mother]ungrateful,unholy,withoutlove,unforgiving,slanderous
withoutself-control,brutal,not lovers of good,treacherous,rash,conceited,lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of GOD.....
HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING IT'S POWER..have nothing to do with them. THAT'S THE OVERCOME CHURCH
the Lamb that speaks like adragon...that's the one that gets more stripes
the URGENCY IS....'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE"..it was in Jesus day..and it is in ours.
READ AND LISTEN TO THE PARABLE OF THE DEBTORS
LUKE 16;8My Master is taking away my job........the Master commended the dishonest manager...........for the people
are wiser in dealing with their own kind thanthe people of the Light.
I tell you..we better be as wise as the serpent,yet innocent as doves. :2c:
Amen Sheila :iagree: :banana: :thumbsup: :cloud9: :HeartThrob:
I agree sister !!
The debtor ......LUKE 16 a favorite passage , thanks for the reminder !! :dsunny:
Amen! I love how Revelation says "Come to the waters.. who so ever is thirsty, let them come and drink". It doesn't say let the perfect come and drink.. (lol, anyone who thinks they're perfect is likely far from it! So that would be a meaningless invitation.
What i mean is it's the drinking the water that saves.. that transforms.
His yoke is easy.. His burden is light! (Who wouldn't want to come to the waters!)
The Way is simply an abiding on the vine.. the sap., the oil.. He is the potter, we the clay.. o let me be a vessel for you, to pour your love through..
A 'church' is to be a lamp stand.. a bearer of light.. not the light.. but it's the light that's to shine through..
Paul wrote something about "the law is dead to us"..
"perfect love casts out fear" ..did I cuss under my breath? did I get angry? Not a reason to fear! His grace is what transforms. Am I surprised that I'm flawed? :laughing7: It's His grace that makes me want to do better!
Believers need to trust the ability of His Spirit and grace.. to be able to bring people to Jesus- without piling on this, that and the other thing, namely rules.. "don't eat meat sacrificed to idols (demons) and avoid sexual sin". Short and simple. "Moses is preached every day.."
How the world needs THIS message:
Matthew 11:28-30 (Contemporary English Version)
28 If you are tired from carrying heavy burdens, come to me and I will give you rest. 29 Take the yoke I give you. Put it on your shoulders and learn from me. I am gentle and humble, and you will find rest. 30 This yoke is easy to bear, and this burden is light.
Just beautiful sister Marie!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
May the parched place drink of the many waters from above , offered so freely as it was given by our LORD JESUS CHRIST !!
as we pour ourselves out as a drink offering ... Phillipians 2 ;17 Shining as Stars
...16as you hold forth the word of life, in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me....
rejoice !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I rejoice with you and Paul and all , already gathered into Christ living body of water freely .
waters /voices from above , many whom hear His Voice shall LIVE! !
John 5 The Father and the Son
...24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.... :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
sin and guilt is such a heavy burden many are carrying.How 'LIGHT" it is for someone to say'YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN"...God
keeps no account of the injury..and neither do I. To say..God is not counting your sins or weakness of your flesh against you.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2019, 01:44:44 AM
If the above was too long for some of you to read, here's the short version;
do you believe, as a UR person rather than ET believer vested in escaping eternal damnation, that there is a reason to help people avoid the "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "the wrath to come", the kolasin aionion (temporary correction), by proclaiming Christ as Savior and encouraging others to believe on Him? I.e. evangelism, being a witness for Him? Or should we not care, as no one has anything to fear or avoid? And either way, not just feelings or personal druthers - what's the scriptural support? Blessings.
A 'reason?' 'Nothing to fear or avoid?' What!?!?
Sin completely destroys lives.
...It causes all the suffering we see in the world.
Ignoring sin in this life would be like ignoring your child as she plays with a bomb in front of you that could take out the whole neighborhood (for the sins of others affects all of us especially those closest to that person). "Ah nevermind...she might blow everyone up but she'll goto heaven".
I don't get this crazy thinking: "Hey we're all saved from eternal hell so let's just get through this life as quick as possible...Let's be lazy Christians...keep our heads down and it will all be ok...Christ will save us all when we get there, just leave it to him, he did all the work. Hey it's ok...I know your dying and sick and I'm not going to bother helping you but hey...Here's some good news...Gospel means good news!...Don't worry I'm a Christian Universalist and hell is just a mistranslation!... I know a few fancy Greek words... And theres' a really great afterlife once you get corrected when you die, we all go to heaven eventually."
...Nah, we are to be 'more than conquerors' on earth and help others be so and we have great opportunity here to grow in this plane of duality. (Experience of evil). We are to bear fruit. Paul regarded it as a 'race'.
...Walking about ignoring sin and the suffering it causes for people and doing nothing to lend a hand or help is hardly doing God's will now is it? Since we all have God's spirit we all come together as one so doing a diservice to someone is doing it to yourself.
There are still plenty people out there in the world suffering...Indeed, 'hell' is right outside out doors.
It seems clear to me it may be easier to be corrected 'down here' with Christ's acceptance and 'sin coverage' than to meet the wrath of God without a leg to stand on... Imagine...Looking pure love in the eye. I don't think people really understand how awful that could be for many. "It is a TERRIBLE thing to fall into the hands of the living God". Heb 10:31.
...In short it would be like having a cure for all mankind's ills and not using it.
at this very moment..there are many bombs being played with all over the world........He says 'I WILL SETTLE DISPUTES BETWEEN
STRONG NATIONS" There is atime in the scriptures....Dan11;16 and45He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the
beautiflul holy mountain.
Hebrews10;32 REMEMER THOSEEARLIER DAYS AFTER YOU HAD RECIEVED THE LIGHT,WHEN YOU STOOD YOUR GROUND IN A
GREAT CONTEST IN THE FACE OF SUFFERING? SOMETIMES YOU WERE PUBLICLY EXPOSED TO INSULT,SOMETIMES YOU
STOOD SIDE BY SIDE WITH THOSE WHO WERE SO TREATED. YOU SYMPATHIZED WITH THOSE IN PRISON,AND JOYFULLY
ACCEPTED THE CONFISCATION OF YOUR PROPERTY...........
BECAUSE YOU KNEW...THAT YOU YOURSELVES HAD BETTER AND LASTING POSSESIONS
SO<DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE,IT WILL BE RICHLY REWARDED
YOU NEED TO PERSEVERE SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD,YOU WILL RECIEVE WHAT HE HAS PROMISED
FOR,IN JUST A VERY LITTLE WHILE;
HE WHO IS COMINGWILL COME AND WILL NOT DELAY
BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK I WILL NOT BE PLEASED WITH HIM
BUT WE ARE NOT OF THOSE WHO SHRINK BACK AND ARE DESTROYED,BUT OF THOSE WHO BELIEVED AND ARE SAVED
I don't have a certain expectation of fear and judgement..I have different expectations :girlheart:
Isaaih 47;12 Keep on then with your majic spells and with your many sorceries,which you have labored at since childhood.
PERHAPS YOU WILL SUCEED,PERHAPS YOU WILL CAUSE TERROR..
surely they are like stubble..the fire will burn them up. THEY CAN NOT EVEN SAVE THEMSELVES.
LEG-I-ON...............Isaaih 54;17no weapon forged against you will prevail,
AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TOUGNE THAT ACCUSES YOU.
Tougnes and authority...... REV 13;2the dragon gave the beast his power....he was given authority over every tribe,people
TOUGNE and nation[accuser]
He who can control his tougne is perfect
Proverbs 10;19 a multiplying of words does not end sin..but he who holds his tougne is wise. :2c:
James ch 3..the tongue. rudder that can turn the whole body...life or death,blessing or cursing.the tongue itself set on fire in hell......
versus the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH TO SAVE :2c:
Psalms 30;5 For His anger endureth but a moment...in His favour is LIFE .Weeping may endureth for a night
But joy cometh in the morning. :2c:
Mt 13;13-15.......TURN........... John 16;25-33 :2c:
I thought of this good example of why there's still urgency to follow Christ now. I may have shared something similar in the past on Tentmaker.
There are two people going to the same destination. One has a guide (Jesus) to show him the way and to help him along the journey when the travel is challenging.
The other person has no guide, and while this person gets to the same destination in the end, he takes a difficult route, doesn't know the right way, gets lost, is all alone, runs out of gas, and overall the journey takes much longer and is more difficult (insert anything that would make for a terrible journey).
So they both get there anyway would you say that the terrible, wandering, lost journey is fine to endure because "oh well, all's well that ends well"? Or would you prefer to have a guide?
Lots of good points, but our urgency, I still believe should be, that God loved us, and gave His life for us, while we were still sinners.
Otherwise, to me, we are still missing the point of who we are and why we are here. Whether or not there is a significant and difficult transition that lyes ahead, our motivation should be to want to give our life to God. Being human, I realize, this is not always easy or apparent, but nonetheless, it still should be our motivation.
This huge, beyond imagination love has been poured out on us. A life given, by the Son of God, for our forgiveness of sins that Jesus did not commit. How shall we respond to this? What are we made of? What legacy will we leave.....how will we respond when we are before the Almighty God?
1 John 4:
7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.
20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well.
D.
I'm thinking of a difference between after we know Him/believe on Him, and prior to doing so.
Two sides of the same coin?
When we know Him, it's about love and obedience, finding rest in Him - as even His yoke is easy. (Although, even a child in a loving relationship has a healthy respect for potential discipline from their parent).
Before we know Him there's the lack of peace, hope, and assurance in this life, as well as the "coming wrath" [judgment, correction] to avoid.
Seems that might reconcile some of the scriptures of peace and life, with some of them about fear and wrath.
Col. 3:6 ...the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Jn. 3:36 he who is believing in the Son, has life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God does remain upon him.
And then, again, that famous Mthw. 25:46 verse; And these shall go away to punishment age-during [kolasin aionios?], but the righteous to life age-during [the same time period, prior to consummation/All in All/immortality?].
From back in my early years :)
Great, Great Joy
Chris Christian
There's a great, great joy in Jesus
And through me, Lord, it longs to be told
If you'll just be a little child
He'll take care of you and make you grow
He sends the sunshine beaming down, the rain below
He'll make your happiness
Sprout its roots and grow
You'll know, you'll know
There's a great, great joy in Jesus
That I'm anxious for you to know
If you'll just try to follow Him
He'll take care of you and make you grow
He sends the sunshine beaming down the rain below
He'll make your happiness
Sprout its roots and grow
You'll know, you'll know
There's a great, great joy in Jesus
And through me, Lord, it longs to be told
If you'll just be a little child
He'll take care of you and make you grow
He sends the sunshine beaming down the rain below
He'll make your happiness
Sprout its roots and grow
You'll know, you'll know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGC9ucRAo88
Very nice, jabcat.....thanks for sharing the song.
I just have a hard time believing the God would want fear to be our motivation. I know that God will judge us....I know that might take an unpleasant form, for at least, some of us.......but, I still believe that we should come to know God, because of love. Now, granted, I won't deny that I am an idealist, in many ways. Love never fails. Certainly, God's love never fails us.
But, if fear brings some people to the door......then let's hope that love captures them, soon after. Perhaps when they peek in, they feel the blast of love come through the door. :Gclap:
D.
Quote from: jabcat on February 07, 2019, 08:09:18 AM
I'm thinking of a difference between after we know Him/believe on Him, and prior to doing so.
Two sides of the same coin?
When we know Him, it's about love and obedience, finding rest in Him - as even His yoke is easy. (Although, even a child in a loving relationship has a healthy respect for potential discipline from their parent).
Before we know Him there's the lack of peace, hope, and assurance in this life, as well as the "coming wrath" [judgment, correction] to avoid.
Seems that might reconcile some of the scriptures of peace and life, with some of them about fear and wrath.
Col. 3:6 ...the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.
Jn. 3:36 he who is believing in the Son, has life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God does remain upon him.
I agree.. I think we see things like looking at the back of a tapestry, but from God's view, He sees the whole and compete, finished tapestry.. Or, like the verse "each n their own time" - which sure does sound Ike two great harvests, one at Jesus' return, and one at "the 'end' when the Son hands the kingdom over to the Father, having subdued all things" which if all has been brought "under Jesus" then at that time all must have been drawn to Jesus as He said in Jn. 12:32.
Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:20 having been fulfilled. I think this is the time, or immediately precedes the time Peter wrote about, that the elements will melt at a ferocious heat. Even tho I believe man will unleash thermonuclear or otherwise fiery destruction called apocalypse and God's wrath, this verse is written in connection with "a new heavens and a new Earth, wherein righteousness shall dwell" (love will be the ruling force!)
From our point of view, the "resurrection of the just"/justified! and the resurrection of all the rest of mankind "after the thousand years" seem far apart and not as easily seen (Rev 20). But Jesus said "an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth--those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Jn. 5:28,29.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/5-28.htm - and here too is the two harvests, verse 25, and verse 28. Verse 25 being the call and hearing during this lifetime, the harvest and resurrection at Jesus' return, the resurrection to life, and verse 28, the one to judgment..
I think the resurrection of judgment, over the course, for each one, becomes day of atonement..
Quote from: Dandelion on February 07, 2019, 12:27:05 PM
Very nice, jabcat.....thanks for sharing the song.
I just have a hard time believing the God would want fear to be our motivation. I know that God will judge us....I know that might take an unpleasant form, for at least, some of us.......but, I still believe that we should come to know God, because of love. Now, granted, I won't deny that I am an idealist, in many ways. Love never fails. Certainly, God's love never fails us.
But, if fear brings some people to the door......then let's hope that love captures them, soon after. Perhaps when they peek in, they feel the blast of love come through the door. :Gclap:
D.
Bingo! :mblush: Or that is, :iagree: ...how else could it be?
And amen, once we are saved the 'wrath' of God (wages/result of sin/death) no longer abides on us.. and is why as Paul wrote "the law is dead to us".
there is a demonic fear and a 'certain' expectation...'did you come to torment us before the appointed time?"we know his certain judgement
This is Jesus 'coming we are talking about..the very image of the Father's ..heart of LOVE The very one who laid down His life so we may
all live..who is making everything new..who redeemed man
There is a godly fear that also says..'O'Lord be merciful unto me a sinner"Mercy has triumphed over judgement for man.
through the righteousness of one man..the free gift of righteousness.The righteous in the eyes of God is all mento be raised up
in His image. The wicked is satanandthe demons.. Eventhough man in his weakcorruptible state..has bore the wicked ones image
andlikeness in varying degrees....he will be separated fromit.
Whenyou see these thingsoccur...LOOKUP...YOUR DELIVERANCE DRAWS NEAR
Pharoah's[satans]heart is hardened..andhe willnotlet God's people go..BUT HE WILL LET GO. nomatter what stronghold he hasonthem
BECAUSE THE SAVIOUR COMES TO DELIVER.
I'd rather bein Father's hands and Jesus over man's or satan's demons anytime
all men are like Israel were ready to crossover[pass through] the red sea into the promised land..each in histurn[order]...
with pharaoh's army[satans forces] hot on our heels.we pass through our own blood..leaving this body of death behind...and are
delivered into the Kingdom of His love.
GOD IS LOVE..lest we forget..to those[allmen] who receive mercy..but HE IS TERRIBLE TO DEMONS.THEY SHOULD BE
VERY VERY AFRAID...He has put up with them a long time[those vesselsfittedfor destruction] in order to make known His great great
mercy on vessels[man] fitted for mercy and glory[raised up incorruptible/immortal in His image]
it is a Priests job to discern the HOLY from the profane........I just share my bread.......it is hidden to many..but He also said..
nothing hidden will not be revealed....and all men are hidden in Christ..and this bread is for all men :2c:
:2c:Iwould aso like to share..about the first resurrection. Jesus..the firstborn from the dead..is the pattern for ALLMEN RAISED UP
IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS....partakers of the first resurrection. And because of Him and Father men are not hurt of the LOF
or second death..[because of His great mercy ye sons of men are not consumed]
now the twice dead are satan and demons...for it was appointed unto all men to die once..then the resurrection in Christ's image.
Jesus addressed the offspring of vipers[evilspirits] dwelling on the sadducees and Pharisees in his day..and spoke of how they
traversed land and sea to make men their proselytes and make them in the image of the twice dead child of hell.Satan and his
being twice dead having been cast out of heaven awaiting judgement..and refusing to repent and putting the true heir to death
to cease both this world/dominion from Adam..and the heavenly kingdom from God/Christ..
there are men that bear the corrupt image of satan as twice dead in the flesh..the actual man has a spirit in him that he thinks
is God but is satan transforming himself into an angel of light..and the man is deceived and knows not what spirit he is of...something
worse has befallen them. whenever anevil/unclean spirit is cast out..it seeks to retake a man'sbody..and will muscle him down again
bringing other[7others] demons..and the state of that man will be worse off in his wrestling with these powers and principalities. Some
being driven mad and having legion.so man can have 1/1,1/8..or1/2000.mental institutions and prisons being full of such.
But Jesus also shall cast out all these and deliver..those in hard slavery to sin/demons.then they will be in their RIGHT[eous] mind of
Christ image and likeness. That is the reason He told the woman caught in the act of adultery to go sin no more lest
something worse befall her.
These tares will be cast out and gathered for burning..and the spirit of the man taken to the storehouse of heaven where he is restored
Satan is very wrathful at this time,knowing his time is short...and man is in a terrible state and we see thesethings allover the world
Butshortly..God and Christ will crush the head/mind of the serpent beneath all our feet...and work a GREAT DELIVERANCE FOR ALL HIS
PEOPLE...and not one will be missing...though 10,000[demons] fall at your side. :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 07, 2019, 01:53:27 AM
....overall the journey takes much longer and is more difficult (insert anything that would make for a terrible journey).
...People pretending or totally confident and convinced they know the right way but instead give you directions to a dead end or a cliff or something.
"Aintree?!" Lol!!!
:thumbsup: a 3 days journey to offer a sacrifice pleasing unto the Lord[Jesus] can turn into 40years of wandering.
Quote from: sheila on February 07, 2019, 10:29:07 PM
:thumbsup: a 3 days journey to offer a sacrifice pleasing unto the Lord[Jesus] can turn into 40years of wandering.
I blame the beards! :gimmefive:
Urgency.. :Chinscratch:
"The wages (result of?) missing the mark is death." [Ro.6:23] "sin" the Greek - "missing the mark".
"..Am I saying something good caused my death? Certainly not! It was missing the mark that killed me by using something good. Now we can see how terrible and evil missing the mark really is." - Contemporary English Version paraphrased slightly.
It's death! God being life itself, and He also "is perfect"/not ever missing the mark! So.. missing the mark is always and forever the opposite of life! (Urgency?)
(But "God is the savior of all!" 1 Tim.4:10) :banana:
I remember certain men..who would not eat a meal with the gentile believers..and Peter stopped eating with them,too.Evidently
gentile believers were 'marked'by the superfine apostle type..'to not even eat with them'Paul said'mark such ones who cause divisions.
speaking of marking the markers!!whenPeter sinned agains tPaul and gentile believers..Paul spoke of it..Peter repented of it
I remember Jesus eating with the sinners/taxcollectors of the people. Wasn't Matthew a tax collector?tax collectors andharlots
entering in before them.... :2c:for God chose the weak and despised..to put to shame.........
Yes it seems LOVE OF GOD is the bulls eye [center ] putting on the love the perfect bond of unity
Col 3 12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other;
as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
It is a matter of heart :HeartThrob:
:2c:something 'strange'I've noticed..about those who 'cling to'righteousness of their flesh" This,I have seen in jews,christians
and muslims.It is this...the genetic inherited diseases. Mennonites,muslims and jews have a lot of genetic maladies.
My grand-daughter dates a mennonite boy..the family is against such as her.will not accept her.Theyoung man raised init..doesnot
even live their lifestyle..and faults her for not living up to it.Even if she were converted..she would never really be accepted
Also,I found out I am a carrier of a'gene'in jews..about29generations ago and these two things togather have ledto thisrealization
This scripture comes to mind.....Isaaih65;5...who say..'keep away..do not come near me,for I am to sacred for you."
such people are smoke in my nostrils..a fire that keeps burning all day.
some really need to'widen out in their affections"in the literal sense..as we all need to widen out in the spiritual affections. :2c: