Tentmaker Forum

Query from Chris

Hi, please I really need your help. I think I have committed the unforgivable sin. I was on bed reading the word of God and came by the scripture which talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Instantly I thought a disgusting thought in my head. Curse words came into my head and I don't know how but I cursed the Holy Spirit. Sometime it comes back into my head and I hate it.

I don't know why this happened, but after reading on the internet I saw that it had happened to other people. I don't hate the Holy Spirit, I love God and I was even praying that the Holy Spirit would come into me and help me to serve God better. I was really hungry for God and growing spiritually each day. Now I am absolutely terrified that I am going to Hell, it is so frightening.

It has ruined me and I have stopped going to church. No matter how much I read about it on sites like these and people tell me that I haven't committed this sin I still think I am lost forever. It seems nothing can comfort me because I am just so unsure. How can I know, or anyone else know for sure? Doesn't it say that if you committ this sin that you while not be forgiven in this age, or the age to come and that all blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not? I want forgiveness so badly, but it feels so far away from me, I feel like I am beyond forgiveness.
Please please help me, thanks, Chris.

Chris,

I can tell you of a surety that you have not committed any unpardonable sin. No one can seek forgiveness or be drawn to want God except by the Holy Spirit. If you had done what you fear, you would not care a bit or want to be forgiven. The very fact that you want forgiveness and to be right with God proves that you still have the Holy Spirit working in you and with you. The truth is that God has already forgiven you when you asked the first time, but the enemy is lying to you trying to convince you otherwise. Please believe me as I have nothing to gain by not telling you the truth.

John

Hi Chris

Here are a few other thoughts on the matter.

The famous Unpardonable sin (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=673.msg5232#msg5232)

I concur with Kratos

Blessings

Check this out:

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html

http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/unpardon.htm

http://www.oxleigh.freeserve.co.uk/wp48.htm

http://afirstnewssource.net/sermons/MacDonald/ItShallNotBeForgiven.htm

Chris, to blaspheme the holy spirit is to attribute the miracles Christ wraught to the work of Satan rather than God.

Also, even if you did commit the blasphemy of the h.s. it does not bear eternal consequences. The one who did so in Christ's day does not receive a pardon **in this eon nor in that [eon] which is impending**. So you would not receive a pardon during this eon in which we live nor during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ. But afterward is the new earth eon and after that God will be All in all.

So chil.

Tony

Hi im Erica...and i just wanted to respond to your post Chris...as long as you have asked God to forgive you of your sin...you are definately forgiven! Please do not be tormented by how you feel. Trust me i have sinned alot...and I too felt like i was not going to make it to heaven, but then God told me that im forgiven! So if you asked God to forgive you then your forgiven! If you need prayer feel free to let me know...God bless you!

In Christ...Erica :happygrin:

As far as the unpardonable sin, I'm sorta standing here as Exhibit-A regarding this sin.  Thoughts were the least of what I did several years ago.  I know I crossed that line.  Christians with no knowledge of what I'd done had some interesting comments for me during that season, that could have only come from the Holy Spirit.  I'm not talking about a single incident or even a few incidents.  It would be nice to say that I was demonized at the time so that it could be said that perhaps it wasn't me spewing all of that, but....

Jesus said some things about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and then He took a beating on His Face and released Water from His side on the Cross in order to separate you from the present time demension.  All of these sins have been eternally punished in the Body of Jesus Christ.  And if you're moved by the love and atoning work of the Son of God, then take that opportunity to totally cast the whole of your past, of your present, and of your future at His feet. 

There are as many demensions of time as there are individuals in the Creation, and Jesus Christ can transport you from that road to destruction and can convey you not only into His loving embrace, heaven, the new earth, etc., but He can part the waters of time that would separate you from Him and He can cast away from you all of that condemnation and raise you up even from this death that you've died in your soul for having committed this sin.  I know about this particular death because I died it a few years ago.

Look at the Light and at the Blood in the Light.  Don't look at the Darkness.  Tune out the laughs and moans that you might hear in your quieter moments.  Tune out the nervousness and the bottomless feeling in the pit of your stomach.  Reach for that nail pierced Hand as you look into those tear-filled eyes that have never given up on you!  He warned you of the danger of this sin and of the magnitude of the damage that you'd create with it.  But He's not pushing you away.  That's a demon that would try to exclude you from His grace, even if it's quoting Scriptures to you as it did to Jesus when it tempted Him.

You can climb up that well that you've fallen into.  Don't let this thing swallow you!  God's Hand is on the other side of the mouth of this beast whose belly you feel like you're trapped within.  The fear, the shame, the condemnation that you're feeling for having done this isn't coming from your heavenly Father.  It's a cloud of deception that's surrounded you whose origins are religious, demonic, and psychic.  Grab a Bible and start reading St. Paul's epistles. 

If it's still too heavy, then go to one of the healing ministries like Kenneth E. Hagin's or Oral Roberts ministry* and get an audio copy of the healing Scriptures so you can listen to those over and over and over again.  Go to www.haroldlovelace.com (http://www.haroldlovelace.com) and order a copy of his book on the Universal Restoration.  It's called "Read And Search God's Plan...of His mercy upon all..."  Read through that book after you've listened to one of those healing Scriptures tapes or CDs a few times and when you get to the Scripture section of Harold's book, just spend hours reading those Scriptures of God's mercy upon all over and over and over again. 

In your Bible, read Ephesians, Colossians, and Romans chapter 8 over and over and over again and just bathe your mind in God's Word.  You don't have to "produce" something or have anything memorized.  Just bathe in it and hide in God's Word from all of the religion, politics, and entertainment industry that surrounds you.  This is a season where you're working on something.  Hide in God's Word until there's nothing screaming at you any more except for God's passionate, passionate and intoxicating love for you and for all of Creation!

---

*As a bit of clarification, I'm always going to point you in the direction of the Scriptures, more than necessarily at either the particular doctrines of others or whatever, although I may mention specific ministries for the sake of letting you know where to find this or that, that I personally believe would be most helpful.  My advocation of a particular product isn't necessarily an advocation of everything that particular teachers and ministries would have to offer in product catalogues or in their meetings.  The Scriptures on audio cassette or audio CD are very helpful, particularly when they're as many Scriptures as possible on a particular theme and particularly when the themes are various aspects of the Goodness of our Lord.

Hi Martin,
thank you for sharing. About ten years ago I was going through a similar experiemce that almost cost me my life. It truly was the dark night of the soul.

But our Abba Father's Love prevailed in the end and now I know that nothing can seperate me from His Love in Christ Jesus. Shortly after this the flow of the Holy Spirit was released in my life accompanyied by the gift of tongues.

Hang in there Chris, Abba is going to reveal His Unconditional Love, Radical Grace and Unlimited Mercy to you.

I'd noticed this on the guest board a while back and I wasn't sure about whether or not to comment on it, because this sin has such a stigma associated with it.  It's sorta like how some of the denominations were treating the divorced for years and years.  Either nobody with half a brain really commits this sin, or the only real danger is if a cessationist opens their mouths about a miracle ministry in the Body of Christ.  Those are pretty much how the theories go.  And then the magnitude of consequences that Jesus attached to this sin probably leads a lot of people in the Body of Christ to think "nobody that I personally know has ever stepped across those lines!"  And then all of the excuses start coming up if there's a nervousness that this sin has been committed.  The ol' "the devil made me do it" that used to be a favorite excuse on a bunch of other stuff.

If time's a factor in keeping anyone away from the Lord because of a sin of this nature, the Lord's more than capable of creating a brand new time line upon which to place the person who has committed this sin.  Some might say that there's no promise of that.  And in my early years in UR, I'd of given precisely the exact same answer as Tony Nungesser gave above.  And then after a while, I got to thinking.... But, wait a minute, [letter of the law vs. life-giving Spirit again] I've done this kinda crap both in my preteens and in my early 20s around 1996 and 1997.  And yet, few in the history of mankind have ever been recipients of as much of the grace of God as I've received, IF anybody else has ever received this much grace 'cause absolutely all grace without any limitation or qualification is abounding towards me perpetually without any end in sight. 

The beautiful thing about our Lord though, is that as much grace as I've been a recipient of, it's available to anyone else that's ever committed this sin.  All of God's grace is even available for those who have a bit of the nervousness about having committed this sin.  Whether or not they got into a God cursing, God cussing fit that included some underwhelming observations and declarations about the Holy Spirit and having quite a mouthful about various well-known ministries that probably have more of the supernatural touch from the Lord than the Lord even uses to sustain the multiverse, or if they're under the impression that they've done other things that were just as bad.  God's grace is greater!

Afterlife punishments in the Old Testament tended to work out in the lives of one's descendants instead of being something that one would personally face post mortem.  I'm starting to believe that Jesus was speaking to a Jewish culture about the sins against the Holy Spirit being passed down to the third and fourth generation when He said that there wasn't forgiveness for this sin in this age or in the age to come.  However, that mostly related to that generation to which He was ministering that faced a very very rough end to the century with the destruction of Jerusalem.  It was a warning that if they didn't repent, then it wouldn't go well with their kids and grand kids, that had a very sad fulfillment because they didn't heed His warning.  He wasn't threatening them with a level of harm that His Cross couldn't reclaim them from.  Otherwise a sin would have successfully challenged His power, wisdom, provision, lovingkindness, and tender mercies!

Having one's name rubbed out in the Old Testament was about having one's name rubbed out from under heaven as God sometimes spoke to the Israelites about with regards to how severe they were to come down on their enemies.  This was the practice of other cultures as well, that in some instances, they'd completely wipe out the memory of some from under the sun.  This could be the case with individuals, families, and cities.  But this hardly related to one's post mortem condition.

Solomon said that the spirit of the man would return to God Who gave it.  Period.  There's no other afterlife provisions that have been made either in the Old or New Testaments.  Those who died through Adam will most surely be made alive through Jesus Christ, each in their own order of life and death generation after generation until the resurrection.  And the resurrection will be about participating on the New Earth.

As soon as UR goes mainstream, there have got to be dozens of books that are published with regards to this particular sin 'cause a lot of people have committed it.  And if they're unrepentant, then they are "dead men walking," but there is recovery for all from every imaginable and unimaginable sin through Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ in His death overshadowed the entire spectrum of what scientists would call "superstring theory" and every time demension in existence finds it's summation and consummation in Him.  And from the perspective of His foreshadowing and overshadowing of all of time with His glory, His death, and His resurrection He HAS TAKEN AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

Quote from: martincisneros on May 09, 2008, 02:00:25 AM
I'd noticed this on the guest board a while back and I wasn't sure about whether or not to comment on it, because this sin has such a stigma associated with it.  It's sorta like how some of the denominations were treating the divorced for years and years.  Either nobody with half a brain really commits this sin, or the only real danger is if a cessationist opens their mouths about a miracle ministry in the Body of Christ.  Those are pretty much how the theories go.  And then the magnitude of consequences that Jesus attached to this sin probably leads a lot of people in the Body of Christ to think "nobody that I personally know has ever stepped across those lines!"  And then all of the excuses start coming up if there's a nervousness that this sin has been committed.  The ol' "the devil made me do it" that used to be a favorite excuse on a bunch of other stuff.

If time's a factor in keeping anyone away from the Lord because of a sin of this nature, the Lord's more than capable of creating a brand new time line upon which to place the person who has committed this sin.  Some might say that there's no promise of that.  And in my early years in UR, I'd of given precisely the exact same answer as Tony Nungesser gave above.  And then after a while, I got to thinking.... But, wait a minute, [letter of the law vs. life-giving Spirit again] I've done this kinda crap both in my preteens and in my early 20s around 1996 and 1997.  And yet, few in the history of mankind have ever been recipients of as much of the grace of God as I've received, IF anybody else has ever received this much grace 'cause absolutely all grace without any limitation or qualification is abounding towards me perpetually without any end in sight. 

The beautiful thing about our Lord though, is that as much grace as I've been a recipient of, it's available to anyone else that's ever committed this sin.  All of God's grace is even available for those who have a bit of the nervousness about having committed this sin.  Whether or not they got into a God cursing, God cussing fit that included some underwhelming observations and declarations about the Holy Spirit and having quite a mouthful about various well-known ministries that probably have more of the supernatural touch from the Lord than the Lord even uses to sustain the multiverse, or if they're under the impression that they've done other things that were just as bad.  God's grace is greater!

Afterlife punishments in the Old Testament tended to work out in the lives of one's descendants instead of being something that one would personally face post mortem.  I'm starting to believe that Jesus was speaking to a Jewish culture about the sins against the Holy Spirit being passed down to the third and fourth generation when He said that there wasn't forgiveness for this sin in this age or in the age to come.  However, that mostly related to that generation to which He was ministering that faced a very very rough end to the century with the destruction of Jerusalem.  It was a warning that if they didn't repent, then it wouldn't go well with their kids and grand kids, that had a very sad fulfillment because they didn't heed His warning.  He wasn't threatening them with a level of harm that His Cross couldn't reclaim them from.  Otherwise a sin would have successfully challenged His power, wisdom, provision, lovingkindness, and tender mercies!

Having one's name rubbed out in the Old Testament was about having one's name rubbed out from under heaven as God sometimes spoke to the Israelites about with regards to how severe they were to come down on their enemies.  This was the practice of other cultures as well, that in some instances, they'd completely wipe out the memory of some from under the sun.  This could be the case with individuals, families, and cities.  But this hardly related to one's post mortem condition.

Solomon said that the spirit of the man would return to God Who gave it.  Period.  There's no other afterlife provisions that have been made either in the Old or New Testaments.  Those who died through Adam will most surely be made alive through Jesus Christ, each in their own order of life and death generation after generation until the resurrection.  And the resurrection will be about participating on the New Earth.

As soon as UR goes mainstream, there have got to be dozens of books that are published with regards to this particular sin 'cause a lot of people have committed it.  And if they're unrepentant, then they are "dead men walking," but there is recovery for all from every imaginable and unimaginable sin through Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ in His death overshadowed the entire spectrum of what scientists would call "superstring theory" and every time demension in existence finds it's summation and consummation in Him.  And from the perspective of His foreshadowing and overshadowing of all of time with His glory, His death, and His resurrection He HAS TAKEN AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

:thumbsup:

Good stuff!

My thinking goes in this direction as well.

Just found this excerpt by Thomas Allin again and found it rather interesting:

"HE THAT SHALL BLASPHEME AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST HAS NEVER FORGIVENESS, BUT IS IN DANGER OF ETERNAL DAMNATION." S. Mark iii. 29, S. Matt. xii. 32.



On a question involving the interpretation of a phrase, drawn from a language still living in their day, it is most important to note the attitude of most Fathers towards this sin. "The notion," says BINGHAM, "that most of the antients had of the sin against the Holy Ghost, was not that it was absolutely unpardonable, but that men were to be punished for it both in this world and in the next, unless they truly repented of it." - vol. ii. 921 So ATHANASIUS says of this sin, "If they repent they may obtain pardon, for there is no sin unpardonable with God to them who truly repent." - De comm. essent. So S. CHRYSOSTOM, "We know that this sin was forgiven to some that repented of it." * * What is then the than meaning of it? That it is a sin less capable of forgiveness than all others, - Hom. xlii. in S. Matt. xii. So VICTOR of Antioch - Comm. in S. Marc. iii., S. AMBROSE - De penit. ii .4, &c. And so DIONYSIUS (Syrus), as late as the tenth century, says: "Many, who did blaspheme. against the Holy Ghost, afterwards repented, and obtained pardon," - translated from a Syriac MSS. (Dubl. 1762.) Two points are very noteworthy; (I.) that these Fathers did not believe any sin to be in itself unpardonable, (II.) that they did not believe the phrases eis ton aiona or aionios, to mean in strictness "never," or "everlasting," as our version renders them. And so nobody will press the similar phrase as to the iniquity of Eli's house not being purged for ever - 1 Sam. iii. 14, to mean that it was literally unpardonable.



I may add that if we retain the authorized text in S. .Mark, the word rendered "damnation" is merely "judgment." But the true reading is probably hamartematos=sin, i.e., is guilty of a. sin, whose results last into a future age or ages. The phrase translated "never," is so far from meaning this literally, that it is elsewhere in Scripture followed by "and beyond," i.e., and after, e.g., Ex. xv. 18, Dan. xii. 3, &c. In S. Matt, the parallel passage is differently worded. "It shall not be forgiven in this world (i.e., age) nor in that which is to come." These words imply that there is forgiveness for sin after this life in very many cases - (an awkward fact for the traditional creed,) and therefore repentance after death is quite possible. Next, there is no assertion whatever that, after this age, and that to come, there may not be forgiveness even for the sin v. the Holy Ghost. A few words may be added. This terrible sin is the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees, i.e., of the hard, narrow religionist, and not of the ungodly. The sin itself is very clearly defined, "because they said, He has an unclean spirit," v. 30. Its essence lies in confounding the works of the Good and Evil Spirits, as, e.g., assigning to God any kind of evil act, p. 37,8. Must it not be a near approximation to this awful sin to assign to God deeds which, like endless torture, our conscience tells us are evil and cruel?

I'd posted a link to this thread on another thread or two and just became aware of difficulties people were having of being able to view this thread if they were logged in and didn't have the certain number of posts to the boards under their belt to be able to post replies on the Guest Book.  I'd assumed that though they might not have been able to have replied to this thread that they'd still be able to see this thread.  That was my error. 

I'm hoping that by moving this thread here that this resolves the difficulty with viewing this thread that I've posted a link to on a couple of threads.  Unregistered guests can view both this board and the Guest Book board.  They can start threads on the Guest Book board, but they can't reply to threads on the Guest Book board, so I'm doing no one any injury by moving this.  And if it makes it more viewable and accessible by all, I'm deeply sorry that I wasn't aware of the need to move this thread sooner.  Hopefully this resolves the issue with being able to see this thread and if anyone wishes to post to it, by all means do so!

I've had that problem too once. I think it's rather common. It's like this, someone tells you don't think of a blue bird or you will be damned. Then the mind feels drawn to that thought and most people would end up thinking of a blue bird. It's very normal and very human. I think such blasphemy has the prerequisite that you bother with the devil, that you really and actually betray God, like for financial gain, like what this couple did that lied to the spirit about money. It's really really difficult to get there.

Maybe you feel like I did when that happened to me, and now often have wicked thoughts that you don't want to have but which come anyway. Simply pray much and ask God to give you a clean heart. You must trust in God knowing your heart and that you did not want this. God is greater than our hearts and knows what's going on in there.

God not only will forgive but already has forgiven you. Spend some time at the cross ... imagine and empty cross, and an empty tomb. God just loves you, man. And will always do.

That article by George MacDonald that AbbasChild posted was fantastic.  Thank you so much for posting that.

I love this:
"I think, when Judas fled from his hanged and fallen body, he fled to the tender help of Jesus, and found it—I say not how."

and this:

"My friends, I offer this as only a contribution towards the understanding of our Lord's words. But if we ask him, he will lead us into all truth. And let us not be afraid to think, for he will not take it ill."

I struggled with the unforgivable sin in almost exactly the same way as Chris.  I was mad at my parents about something, so I swore/cursed/cussed at God and later worried that I'd said it against the Holy Spirit.  Then I became "really saved" a couple years later (long story...) and had to deal with whether or not I actually was "really saved" and "maybe I did commit the unpardonable sin" in an endless cycle, until I found (was shown) UR.

I'm so glad to be released of that burden.

As important as all of the promises of the Universal Restoration are throughout the Old and New Testaments; and as important as all of the various examples and legal precidents are of the limited duration of God's judgments: I can almost go so far as to say that if this one sin be disproven from having eternal consequences then even without going through all of the intricate theology and locating all of the promises -- Eternal Separation stands or falls pretty much on this one issue of an "unpardonable sin."  I don't wish to oversimplify something that's [genuinely] based upon over 600 verses of Scripture, as demonstrated by Dr. Harold Lovelace (http://www.haroldlovelace.com), and various other authors too numerous to be cited, but just think about it for a minute.  If one were ultimately excluded from entrance into 1Corinthians 15:28, then something by intent, design, or acquiescence was "unpardonable."

Oh yeah, and I had a kind of vision about this once. I thought about what this sin means, then I was reminded to our german constitution and heard the word, spoken very softly and solemnly, "preamble". Now the preamble to a constitution, in old times at least, always meant something solemn. People promised to each other that they would honor their covenant. It was about keeping the solemn spirit.

Likewise, we christians are supposed to honor God, particularly Him as the Holy Spirit who is so tenderly loving us and who, I think, has promised to Himself that He would lead us into all truth and be our parakletos. It's like when you marry, there is something to the solemnity. It's not just a feeling, it means something.

But, when a bad thought comes up and you struggle with God and without thinking you utter some bad word, but then repent of it, of course it can be forgiven. The constitution of the New Covenant, so to speak, is ratified with Jesus' own blood and rests on eternal love and togetherness with God. And if you repent, if you regret that crap, of course God will forgive. That is in the preamble too :).

The difficult thing, at least for me, was to get back into this mood of solemnity and love. So that I could have real tender reverence for God. I was always fearing I could have evil thoughts again. For a time in my life this meant that I withdrew from God, simply because I feared things would get bad again and some thoughts slipped by. But at some point, I felt forgiven. I heard a voice, believing it to be the Holy Spirit, that said "I talked with the Father and He said that at some point this fear would just wane". And from this point I was virtually free of the fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And even when bad thoughts slip by I know that I am forgiven.

And then, we can't take complete responsibility for our thoughts. Simply sit down and say to yourself now I only want to have really good thoughts. Doesn't work like that except sometimes only. We are humans and our hearts are not always set right. We make mistakes.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't take this sin lightly. By all means try to keep God sacred to you, all of the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But don't forget that it's all about mercy and love lest you get too strict with yourself, that you don't become phariseic.

Much love,

Daniel

Hi, Martin.  There is another thread on this elsewhere.  here is what I posted there as my take on the unpardonable sin:

After Jesus rose, He appeared to his apostles, blew on them, and said that whatever they loosed (forgave) on earth was loosed (forgiven) in heaven. Whatever they bound on earth was bound in heaven.

We are told in several places that in the end we in Christ will judge the world.

Christ was telling His apostles they would be judges and was giving them the authority they would need to do that.

People think the "unforgivable sin" is one that cannot be forgiven, ever, in any way.

I believe it simply means that a sin against the Holy Spirit is the only one Christ's apostles (and other later members of the Body) do not have the authority or power to loose or bind through Christ's presence in us. In essence, it is "unforgivable" in that respect.

We will be able to loose or bind any sin by MAN against Man. But only the Holy Spirit, who was the one grieved, has the power to forgive or bind a sin by man against Him, God's Spirit.

I agree with Kratos, anti_neitzche and others.  It's a human failing to think what we believe we shouldn't when told not to. And since Chris took it to the Spirit, he cannot have done what he fears he has.

Even if he did, just by going to the Holy Spirit he can receive the forgivenes needed since it was the Holy Spirit he grieved by that errant and fleeting thought.

ME 

Hi Mary Ellen,

The power on earth to forgive sins that's been given to believers is an awesome responsibility that most "Protestants," or Nondenominational folks have really failed a lot of times to pray about until they received understanding from the Lord on ministering that way.  It's a part of the ministry of reconciliation that many believers are leery of because of their leeriness of the Roman Catholic Church.  But as most Nondenominational or Denominational folks don't toss out the bread and the cup when they feel like they can't buy into transsubstantiation, but simply have their own beliefs and practices regarding that, this area over here in the closing part of the Gospel of John is something that people need to really pray through. 

I've been praying about that passage for over 15 years for an understanding of it 'cause it's not the kind of thing that I hear anything taught about in Charismatic Churches.  They're so afraid of thinking that they'd be "mediating," which is an additional cuss word to Christians if it's applied to anyone but Jesus, that they totally shy away from a very valuable spiritual truth that could free people of decades of condemnation if they knew anything about it.  I don't pretend to know anything about it whatsoever.  I'm just open to the Holy Spirit using me in that way.  If it needs to accompany a healing, as when Jesus did it on one occasion, then I'm ready to go where ever the Lord tells me, even if it's to minister to one person. 

Some of the ministers that have taken so much heat from a certain U.S. Senator because they're thoroughly equipped for every good word and work have done that very thing, in spending however much it takes in jet fuel to go thousands of miles to minister to one person.  It's not with any kind of regularity...yet...  (My upcoming generation will have the resources from God to do that with real regularity!!)  But most often before the Lord will trust anyone with being ruler over many things, there will often ultimately come that one time that someone was supposed to minister to one person. 

The "one talent" isn't always a talent or some money, but sometimes is that one person that God instructs someone to go to when they've been seeking Him about releasing them into bigger things in this life.  Sometimes it'll be that one person when you're so tired or depleted in some other way; emotionally, financially, or whatever.  It'll be that one person that needs tenderness and gentleness when all you want to do is bark about a bad tooth or the price of gasoline.  God's ultimate act of trust with anyone is with another person.  Will you loose their chains?  Or send them away sorrowful?  We were never supposed to preach eternal punishment.  We were supposed to remit sins!  Oh, that sends a groan through my whole being over all of the people that have died over the centuries without knowing that they were loved INFINITELY.....

If they'd known, the superheroes that many of them would have been transformed into, instead of dying as bums with destroyed hearts.

Hi, Martin.  I was going to shut down the computer for the evening, but I wanted to reply to your wonderful post.  I read a lot of what you write and then nod my head in agreement.  I should let you know more often how valuable your threads have been to me.

I mentioned before that I wasn't sure if I could ever return to the RC church as much as a part of me wants to.  Passages like the one mentioned above are part of it.  Was it only His apostles that Christ blew on, and is it only those they "lay hands on" that this gift of forgiving sins be passed down to?  Or is this a gift for every believer on whom the Holy Spirit (Breath of God) descends and enters as the deposit for our inheritence?

As Christians we all can forgive each other, but are we forgiving each other for the harm done, or actually forgiving the sin.

My hunch is that if the Body of Christ is going to judge others at the end of time, we have been given the gift of actually remitting sins.  And as you so beautifully said, what a gift and why have we been preaching ET instead of your sins are forgiven?

There have been times in my life, as I am sure there have been for most here, when someone told me years after the fact what the small act of love and forgiveness I offered them meant to them, how it changed everything at a difficult time in their life.  Truly humbling to think that, as you said, most times I would have preferred to growl at them or reply in kind.

It's those times that the grace of Christ floors me!  It also makes me wonder how many times I failed someone because I did growl at them when they needed that sense of forgiveness and reconciliation.

Makes me understand what it means to tremble while working out my salvation :)

ME

The whole concept of "unforgivable" just hits me wrong.  If any sin is wrong enough to make us unworthy, does God really need a grading system?  I seriously doubt there is anybody on this earth today who has never sinned.  Conversely, I seriously doubt there is a human who has ever walked the earth that is not forgiven.

Someone was commenting on another forum about how if you die without forgiveness, you go to hell for eternity.  What a bummer!!  So I was contrite and repentant two minutes prior to death, and just before the throes of death the pain was so intense I scream out "God Da%$ it" and it dooms me!!

It made me wonder, does God have to have an appeals court between heaven and hell?  Maybe that's purgatory?  You know, people appealling their sentence to hell because they didn't live long enough to find forgiveness?  "I only lived to 63 years old, you gave my aunt Edna 87 years, I just needed more time! It isn't fair!!" Yeah right!!

The concept of any sin being unforgivable, and of anybody being unforgiven, sure seems to cheapen the whole miracle of Christ's sacrifice for humanity.  Granted, I think His sacrifice was symbolic, He would have forgiven us without  such a painful ordeal, but we humans needed something to get that forgiveness message across to us.  Seems alot of still haven't gotten it.

Hi there SeekerSA,
How i can sympathise with you! I have been there and wrote a t-shirt whilst there!
I lived a perfectly living hell with this thing.

I subsequently was diagnosed with OCD. I'm not suggesting that you have this, but i think everyone has a touch of it.

I still get terrible thoughts but am learning to ignore them. As someone has said, God knows that you don't want them.

I'm not sure that this sin can be committed today, as we are not seeing Christ heal in the flesh and also somewhere i read saying that why isn't this sin mentioned by St Paul?
St. Paul tells us to test the spirits. How can we do that if we are so terrified of possibly committing this sin?

And i believe that you have to physically slander the Holy Spirits' work, for personal gain, i.e. because you are jealous and angry that your ministry/income is being taken over by the person healing, as in the Pharisee's reasons.
If you say something and you are not sure, how can that be a sin but to know that God is healing but you want to discredit the person healing, you aren't slandering them but God Himself!

Hope this helps a little!
Remember the mind is a very clever thing, as it seems to know exactly what disturbs and hurts you!

Godbless
Nancy

Hello Nancy.  I don't think it was Seeker who had the random thoughts , he was posting on behalf of another writer.

Yes you are right a lot of people get these thoughts though.   We can't control what we think all the time,  I would say as long as its involuntry thoughts it not even a willed action let alone a sin.

In Luke 12:9 for example it says

But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Random thoughts in the privacy of your own head are not the same as disowning  before men .  Maybe the writer doesn't feel forgiven as he hasn't even committed a minor sin!

Will be praying his mind is set to rest.

God bless.

It sounds like a common problem for some, if not all of us at times.
Like a song you can't get out of your head.

Your brain is triggering thoughts constantly, because you are trying so hard not to have them. In the not trying, they come even more. Like you
could be praying and at the same time the thought comes. You fight it, pray more..but sub-conciously, you are trying so hard to fight it, it will happen. This condition happens constantly with those that suffer from sexual issues..Like a woman can't have the big O, because she trying mentally to force it, instead of letting it happen. The alcoholic deals with this.

First, like others have said, you havn't commited this sin. Even those that
believe in eternal hell don't believe that the sin can be commited today.

Know that all humans can have the most terrible thoughts that just come
out of no where...thoughts that no one would want to admit.

If it's so severe that it's causing turmoil, there are generally two ways to deal with it...don't even pray about it or face it. God knows your heart, let the thoughts work themselves out. Say them out loud freely. Let the brain work them out of the sub-concious. When you pray and they come..let them, don't fight them. The fighting them will cause a cycle that will imbed
the pattern. Work them out, talk them out freely. Openly discuss them with God, he understands..is the best way. Simply, you have to break the trigger.

Quote from: adam on July 18, 2008, 07:27:20 PM
Hello Nancy.  I don't think it was Seeker who had the random thoughts , he was posting on behalf of another writer.

Yes you are right a lot of people get these thoughts though.   We can't control what we think all the time,  I would say as long as its involuntry thoughts it not even a willed action let alone a sin.

In Luke 12:9 for example it says

But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Random thoughts in the privacy of your own head are not the same as disowning  before men .  Maybe the writer doesn't feel forgiven as he hasn't even committed a minor sin!

Will be praying his mind is set to rest.

God bless.

But remember, Jesus did speak about how we have already sinned in our hearts if we lust after someone in our minds.  I have always thought that ALL sin is an abomination, yet through the grace of God, evidenced by the supreme sacrifice of Christ, all are forgiven.  This is a good thing for me, since I am by nature a fallible sinner, though much less so when I attempt to do His will.

I have a different perspective per the "unpardonable sin" that pretty much aligns with this article:  http://womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1174

In it, the reason that it is unpardonable is given. 

Just my point of view,

Amie

Quote from: Amie on September 02, 2008, 05:24:10 PM
I have a different perspective per the "unpardonable sin" that pretty much aligns with this article:  http://womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1174

In it, the reason that it is unpardonable is given. 

Just my point of view,

Amie

That is what I have believed for a long time.

A good way to find an answer to this particular question would be to conduct a poll. First of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

I've committed this sin more times than I care to admit; but admit them I shall, for the Bible teaches us to boast about our faults.  I've had moments like you, when I read a passage, and knowing that something is wrong, the temptation to actually commit said sin comes with full force.  It's like the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden with the serpent chanting, "Thou shalt not surely die!"

I've also committed blaspheme with full knowledge of what I was thinking.  Sometimes, the greater God's grace is, the quicker I am to attribute it to something or someone other than the Lord - the skeptic within me can't resist it.

Now, I'm willing to guess that everyone else on this board (or any other board for that matter) has had moments like these.  If we are all damned by it, then Heaven will have eluded all of us and God's grace would have failed.6

QuoteFirst of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?

Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 05:14:50 AM

Quote from: Amie on September 02, 2008, 05:24:10 PM
I have a different perspective per the "unpardonable sin" that pretty much aligns with this article:  http://womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1174

In it, the reason that it is unpardonable is given. 

Just my point of view,

Amie

That is what I have believed for a long time.

What did you believe?  Perhaps there is a misunderstanding - or maybe there isn't.  Either way I'm very intrigued if you don't mind sharing.

Amie

The article. The unpardonable sin not pardonable, because it is what brought the reconciliation of the world.

Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 08:34:31 PM
The article. The unpardonable sin not pardonable, because it is what brought the reconciliation of the world.

I am not sure that I understand.  The article asserts that the sin in question could not be pardoned because those people only had a choice concerning the inheritance of the new covenant on humanity's behalf for a certain time frame -- an inheritance already historically received by the "first fruits".  It was a missed opportunity and it is an opportunity that we today are not confronted with.

Amie

Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 07:03:38 AM

QuoteFirst of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?

This is a very good question, and I admit that it stumped me for a while.  What is blasphemy?  I believe it is to speak, or think, out against the Holy Spirit, the Son, or the Lord.  It is what happens when you attribute His wonders to someone or something other than Him.  I always had also assumed that when a believer doubts the existence of God, that is also blasphemy.

Needless to say, if I am correct in my gut instinct about what blasphemy is, then I have sinned many more times than I could possibly imagine.

Now, I'm still putting thought into this question, and I will return with a more complete answer at a later time.

Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 07:03:38 AM

QuoteFirst of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?

I admit that your question stumped me for a long time, and I'm still not quite sure how to answer it.  All I can do is use my intuition and logic to try and answer your question.

First of all, according to Merriam-Webster, "blasphemy" is, "The act of expressing lack of reverence for God."  Also, "Irreverence toward something considered sacred."

By that logic, we can deduce that anything disrespectful towards God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would be considered blasphemy.  When we doubt the existence of God, take His name in vain, use His word to promote our own ambitions, etc.  By that definition, has anyone never disrespected God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost?  Even Biblical characters have committed this sin!  Thomas doubted, Peter denied, Judas betrayed, and that's just the apostles!

Quote from: martincisneros on May 09, 2008, 02:00:25 AM
If time's a factor in keeping anyone away from the Lord because of a sin of this nature, the Lord's more than capable of creating a brand new time line upon which to place the person who has committed this sin.  Some might say that there's no promise of that.  And in my early years in UR, I'd of given precisely the exact same answer as Tony Nungesser gave above.  And then after a while, I got to thinking.... But, wait a minute, [letter of the law vs. life-giving Spirit again] I've done this kinda crap both in my preteens and in my early 20s around 1996 and 1997.  And yet, few in the history of mankind have ever been recipients of as much of the grace of God as I've received, IF anybody else has ever received this much grace 'cause absolutely all grace without any limitation or qualification is abounding towards me perpetually without any end in sight. 

Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2008, 09:13:44 PM
Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony

Hi Tony,

That did help to clarify a bit on where you're coming from on this particular subject.  Thanks for dropping by.  We haven't had enough people around here lately that know what they're talking about!  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards anybody.  I mean that people have either been out of commission because of surgery and recovery, the economy playing nasty card games with their livelihoods, or folks have been moving to other cities, people have been taking time off with getting banned depending on who's been the latest to want to get a little too abusive about something, etc., etc.  And I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the new season on television programing has also helped to thin out some of the posting with certain hours in certain time zones.  It's also an election year in the U.S., so some people might care more about that than others do.  So, basically, a lot of folks that we've been needing around here haven't been around here.  So, thank you for dropping by!!

Hi Martin,
I don't know if I can class myself with those who "know what they are talking about" LOL! Like O.J. I often just "take a stab in the dark" LOL. But there are some things I think I do have a handle on and it is not due to me but through much pleading, prayer and thanksgiving to our merciful God and Father. Through many hundreds if not many thousands of hours in testing out my reality map in internet discussions I think I can say I have been tested and tried in the crucible of fire and the dross of wrongful beliefs has been drawn off. Now to endeavor to live in accord with those beliefs! Ah, much more grace is needed!

I think it is normal that so many are off on other tangents. Life is in a constant state of flux. This forces us to "rely on the living God" 1 Tim.2:4) and cry "Abba! Father!."

In Him,
In Whom our lot is cast also,
Tony

Quote from: martincisneros on September 29, 2008, 11:20:37 PM

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2008, 09:13:44 PM
Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony

Hi Tony,

That did help to clarify a bit on where you're coming from on this particular subject.  Thanks for dropping by.  We haven't had enough people around here lately that know what they're talking about!  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards anybody.  I mean that people have either been out of commission because of surgery and recovery, the economy playing nasty card games with their livelihoods, or folks have been moving to other cities, people have been taking time off with getting banned depending on who's been the latest to want to get a little too abusive about something, etc., etc.  And I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the new season on television programing has also helped to thin out some of the posting with certain hours in certain time zones.  It's also an election year in the U.S., so some people might care more about that than others do.  So, basically, a lot of folks that we've been needing around here haven't been around here.  So, thank you for dropping by!!

Quote from: Tony N on September 30, 2008, 05:12:28 PM
Like O.J. I often just "take a stab in the dark" LOL.

Wow.

Tony brings the dark humor.

QuoteMat 12:30  The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.
Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
Mat 12:32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Tony,

The people, who we agree Jesus was talking to contextually in his day, could not be forgiven in that age or in the one which was coming.  The coming age for them was this age of grace.  So how could they not be forgiven in this age of grace either?

My own view is that is because of, again contextually, what forgiveness meant for them in that day.  Perhaps we can already agree that the cross was for "sinners" and that forgiveness was all encompassing?  Because then we can move forward from there.  Maybe you would consider at least imagining that were true, and entertain it as true just to understand the point that I'm trying to communicate?  I hope you'll extend me that honor, or that rope, depending on how you see things, lol!

One of my most favorite biblical statements is:

QuoteRom 3:3  For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?

I would definately argue that a person's belief did not determine their state of forgivenness.  It was the faith of God which could and did accomplish great things.

Personal belief in the saving ability of the faith of God meant a call into service for them.  Salvation came through belief in the saving faith of Jesus - else Jesus was not the Savior.  In what way they served is quite interesting.  One title open for consideration is "first fruits".  It's a worthy study to go back into the old testament and discover the function of such.

That aside however, there are all of those texts which suggest that belief saved them from "gehenna fire" and "a resurrection of judgment".  The accomplishment at the cross meant that the old system would be passing away.  Jesus warned those who put their faith in works via the law that their works would not save them.  Rather, they would experience the passing of that world as suffering.  Their would be "weeping, and gnashing of the teeth".  If they would only receive into their hearts the forgiveness already afforded them, they would understand that there is no need to continue on with the things of old and they would be safe from that which was about to befall the "old Jerusalem".

They did not acknowledge their forgiveness.  They would not believe Jesus.  So they would not be pardoned from the consequences of lawbreaking - which are paid wholly in this life.  They would be stoned to death.  Interesting that Revelation uses the words "stung by scorpions" as the Roman catapults were literally called "scorpions" after their design. 

Their choice isn't something that they could go back and make again after the passing of the old age.  They had a single change at taking advantage of forgiveness, and turning it away (via speaking against) meant that they rejected the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Never would they have such an opportunity again - not in their age, or in this one.  Rather, the smoke of their testing rises forever.  The destruction was permanent.

I'm writing this to share my point of view, not to change your own mind.  I am interested in what you think though, and am hoping that if you disagree that you do so with kindness :-).

Amie

Quote from: Amie on October 02, 2008, 05:30:17 PM

QuoteMat 12:30  The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.
Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
Mat 12:32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Tony,

The people, who we agree Jesus was talking to contextually in his day, could not be forgiven in that age or in the one which was coming.  The coming age for them was this age of grace.  So how could they not be forgiven in this age of grace either?

Hi Amie,
First off, I like your humor! If I disagree I hope it is always taken in kindness as you request.
I feel overwhelmed by all you wrote. So, since my time is limited, I will only focus on one point: "that age or in the age which was coming." Then you allude to "the age coming" which is (according to your POV) this age of grace in which we are now living.

To me, there are a couple things wrong (and I say that in kindness) with this POV.
1. The Bible never says anything about "the age of grace" or "the age of law." It does however say we are living in "the present wicked eon" (Galatians 1:4). Ephesians 3:2 does however say that we are under the "administration of grace" which Paul was the administrator of.

2. In the New Testament, all ages or eons are of the epochal type i.e. brought about by immense destruction, examples: (Noah's flood bringing the eon in which we now live, then world-wide earthquake preceding the millennium, in which all the cities of the nations fall, then later, the world conflagrated by fire prior to new earth).

The blasphemy of the spirit would not be pardoned by the King (Jesus) in this eon aiwn or in that (eon) which is impending. It will not be pardoned in this eon or in the eon to come in which Gehenna will be operative.

Just because this sin is never *pardoned* does not mean the criminal will never be freed. In our judicial system we do the same thing. If a criminal is doing 40 years from a crime and the governor or president never pardons him, then he will remain incarcerated until his time is done. Likewise, the one comitting the unpardoned sin will do the full time for the crime and then be loosed.

Sorry if I can't, at this time, answer to the rest of your post. You may not agree with me concerning these things. That's O.K. if that is the case. We'll just consider this a "cultural exchange."

Tony,

I like that, "cultural exchange".  Whether we agree or not, we can get to know one another, no? 

I apologize for the terminology "age of grace".  I borrowed it from other posts making the assumption that "this age" is commonly seen as "the age of grace" by the people here.  I made a mistake in such a broad generalization.

I do not see Paul's "we" as including myself and you.  Rather, it included the Galatians that he was writing and addressing.  Biblically, the world ("Kosmos") of Noah passed away in the flood.  Then there was only what Jesus, Paul etc termed "this world/aion" and "the world/aion to come".  The kosmos of Noah existed within the old aion.  The old aion began in Genesis 2 and the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it.

That world/aion had within it certain elements.  There was the temple, where sacrifice was offered and had to be offered yearly.  There were the leadership thereof, who determined who was worthy of the presence of God (in the "holy of holies") and how near they could come to it -- or whether they would be entirely exiled or killed.  They earned righteousness through keeping the law in the flesh.

The flesh btw, was the weakness of the law itself.  They believed what their eyes and ears witness per their ability to keep it and they believed their eyes and ears per their ability to even understand it.  They believed that because they could clearly see that they had never slept with a woman outside a covenantal bond, for example, that they were innocent of adultery.  They felt that that could justly stone adulterers therefore, and they did.  That is, until the law was righteously interpreted by Jesus and their innocence questioned within their own consciences.

Anyhow, that world was entirely different than this one and the evidence of its' passing was the fall of the temple.  When Jesus talked about that fall, the disciples understood that as the end of their world and asked him for signs leading up to it which he then gave them.  Keep in mind though that those were signs leading up to the fall of the temple/the end of their world. 

Paul breaks down in Galatians the allegory of two covenants.  In Hebrews 8 he again talks about the coming covenant and writes "In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing." (vs 13)

In Paul's day it was "near disappearing".  And what was the evidence for the end?  The fall of the temple.

Per "earthquake":

QuoteMat 27:50  And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.
Mat 27:51  And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!
Mat 27:52  And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mat 27:53  And coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.
Mat 27:54  But the centurion and those with him guarding Jesus, seeing the earthquake and the things taking place, they feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this One was Son of God.

Isn't this indicative of timing?  Or:

QuoteMat 28:1  But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.
Mat 28:2  And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it. 

Or:

QuoteAct 16:25  And having prayed, toward midnight Paul and Silas praised God in a hymn. And the prisoners listened to them.
Act 16:26  And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and all of the bonds were loosened.

Actually, when Jesus was naming the signs leading up to the fall of the temple, he listed:

QuoteMat 24:7  For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes against many places.

There were many earthquakes.

I think it is so important to consider the relevance of who is being addressed in any text.  When Moses said "Let my people go" to the Pharaoh, no one assumes that is talking to us as well.  Jesus talks often to his disciples and the texts say so, yet people assume that he is talking with them as well.  And Paul's letters are "letters" with addressees.  The "you" or "we" isn't us, but whomever he is writing.  That doesn't mean that means nothing to us.

I agree with you that the unpardonability of the sin of blaspheming the holy spirit doesn't mean that the people not believing Jesus and burning in "Gehenna fire" would not be gathered to God as well.

Firstly, "Gehenna" was a literal place.  It was the "Valley of Hinnom" just south of Jerusalem.  It was a place where they burned trash and bodies that they did not consider righteous enough for proper burial.  The place had been considered unclean by the Jews since it had been used as a place to offer human sacrifice to the god Baal.  The bodies burning in the heap were slow burning and warm - enabling the breeding of maggots, hence "where the worm dieth not".  Jerusalem absolutely mirrored that place after the Roman seige - read the history. 

They would not have another chance to believe that Jesus is Savior rather than the temple system because that system would be cast down, and many people would suffer in the "flames of Gehenna".  However:

QuoteHos 1:7  And I will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by Jehovah their God. And I will not save them by bow or by sword, or by battle, by horses, or by horsemen.

Quote1Co 3:15  If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

What happened with Israel was a revelation of the solution for a human-wide problem:  sin and the death which resulted in it.

Amie

Quote from: Amie on October 06, 2008, 06:53:32 PM
Tony,

I like that, "cultural exchange".  Whether we agree or not, we can get to know one another, no? 

Yes, that is very good to try to understand each other.

QuoteAmie: I apologize for the terminology "age of grace".  I borrowed it from other posts making the assumption that "this age" is commonly seen as "the age of grace" by the people here.  I made a mistake in such a broad generalization.

I do not see Paul's "we" as including myself and you.  Rather, it included the Galatians that he was writing and addressing.  Biblically, the world ("Kosmos") of Noah passed away in the flood.  Then there was only what Jesus, Paul etc termed "this world/aion" and "the world/aion to come".  The kosmos of Noah existed within the old aion.  The old aion began in Genesis 2 and the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it.

Tony: That is good you see that aiwn beginning in Gen.1:2 and ending with the flood. I don't understand, though, what you mean by: "the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it." If their sins were forgiven, why the need for a world=wide flood? If you could further clarify this point of yours, that would be appreciated. The "we" of Galatians should always be understood by its contextual setting. Sometimes the "we" is to be understood as only Paul and those bringing the evangel to the Galatians (Gal.1:9 etc.). Other times "we" is used of Paul and the Galatians and other times  "we" should be thought of as applying to all believers.

QuoteAmie: That world/aion had within it certain elements.  There was the temple, where sacrifice was offered and had to be offered yearly.  There were the leadership thereof, who determined who was worthy of the presence of God (in the "holy of holies") and how near they could come to it -- or whether they would be entirely exiled or killed.  They earned righteousness through keeping the law in the flesh.

The flesh btw, was the weakness of the law itself.  They believed what their eyes and ears witness per their ability to keep it and they believed their eyes and ears per their ability to even understand it.  They believed that because they could clearly see that they had never slept with a woman outside a covenantal bond, for example, that they were innocent of adultery.  They felt that that could justly stone adulterers therefore, and they did.  That is, until the law was righteously interpreted by Jesus and their innocence questioned within their own consciences.

Anyhow, that world was entirely different than this one and the evidence of its' passing was the fall of the temple.  When Jesus talked about that fall, the disciples understood that as the end of their world and asked him for signs leading up to it which he then gave them.  Keep in mind though that those were signs leading up to the fall of the temple/the end of their world. 

Paul breaks down in Galatians the allegory of two covenants.  In Hebrews 8 he again talks about the coming covenant and writes "In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing." (vs 13)

In Paul's day it was "near disappearing".  And what was the evidence for the end?  The fall of the temple.

Tony: There was much more that had to happen to bring about the ending of that aiwn than just the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, you know. Jesus didn't say that the only thing left to happen for this aiwn to end is the fall of Jerusalem. Beginning in Matthew 24:3 ending His discourse in Matthew 25:46. He begins to tell His disciples all that must occur to bring to end this aiwn. I would hope you would agree with me that all those things have not yet occurred.
It could be the "near disappearing" was the bringing in the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews spoke of in Hebrews 9, the next chapter after the one you bring up.

QuoteAmie: Per "earthquake":

QuoteMat 27:50  And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.
Mat 27:51  And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!
Mat 27:52  And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mat 27:53  And coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.
Mat 27:54  But the centurion and those with him guarding Jesus, seeing the earthquake and the things taking place, they feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this One was Son of God.

Isn't this indicative of timing?  Or:

QuoteMat 28:1  But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.
Mat 28:2  And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it. 

Or:

QuoteAct 16:25  And having prayed, toward midnight Paul and Silas praised God in a hymn. And the prisoners listened to them.
Act 16:26  And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and all of the bonds were loosened.

Actually, when Jesus was naming the signs leading up to the fall of the temple, he listed:

QuoteMat 24:7  For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes against many places.

There were many earthquakes.

Tony: Yes, there were many earthquakes but none of those brought about the fall of the cities of the nations (world-wide destruction) This earthquake will be so great that nothing like it has ever occurred in human history:
Rev 16:18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since mankind came to be on the earth; of such proportions was the quake and so great." When this specific quake happens it will usher in the next aiwn.

QuoteAmie: I think it is so important to consider the relevance of who is being addressed in any text.  When Moses said "Let my people go" to the Pharaoh, no one assumes that is talking to us as well.  Jesus talks often to his disciples and the texts say so, yet people assume that he is talking with them as well.  And Paul's letters are "letters" with addressees.  The "you" or "we" isn't us, but whomever he is writing.  That doesn't mean that means nothing to us.

Tony: I agree that the "my people" Moses was talking about was not us. Likewise, what Jesus said to His disciples does not apply to us. Paul was the apostle to the nations. He wrote to the nations. (see Galatians 2). I'm confused by your last three sentences above. The word "Ephesians" does not appear in that letter. It was a circular letter for all believers of the nations. All that Paul wrote is for us of the nations.

QuoteAmie: I agree with you that the unpardonability of the sin of blaspheming the holy spirit doesn't mean that the people not believing Jesus and burning in "Gehenna fire" would not be gathered to God as well.

Tony: Whew! You are lucky you agreed with me on that point! I was about to give you over to Satan for the extermination of your flesh (1 Cor.5:5)  :laughing7:

QuoteAmie: Firstly, "Gehenna" was a literal place.  It was the "Valley of Hinnom" just south of Jerusalem.  It was a place where they burned trash and bodies that they did not consider righteous enough for proper burial.  The place had been considered unclean by the Jews since it had been used as a place to offer human sacrifice to the god Baal.  The bodies burning in the heap were slow burning and warm - enabling the breeding of maggots, hence "where the worm dieth not".  Jerusalem absolutely mirrored that place after the Roman seige - read the history. 

Tony: Good!

QuoteAmie: They would not have another chance to believe that Jesus is Savior rather than the temple system because that system would be cast down, and many people would suffer in the "flames of Gehenna".  However:

QuoteHos 1:7  And I will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by Jehovah their God. And I will not save them by bow or by sword, or by battle, by horses, or by horsemen.

Quote1Co 3:15  If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

What happened with Israel was a revelation of the solution for a human-wide problem:  sin and the death which resulted in it.

Amie

Tony: I like your Hosea 1:7 quote. However, I am curious about what you wrote just before that. When Christ comes back to set up His millennial reign He will re-institute Gehenna. It might be that very few will have their dead bodies cast therein. But there will be some as we well know. Will He not also not just re-institute the law but make it actually harder per His sermon on the mount?
I'm curious if you take "as through fire" to mean "through fire" literally as per 1 Cor.3:15?

Quote from: TonyThat is good you see that aiwn beginning in Gen.1:2 and ending with the flood.

No, I don't see the aion which began in Genesis 1 as ending with the flood.  The "kosmos" of Noah ended there, not the "aion".  I see that aion as ended by the forgiveness of sin and susequent removal of the system which gave sin strength.

Quote from: Tony..and other times "we" should be thought of as applying to all believers.

Where?

Quote from: TonyThere was much more that had to happen to bring about the ending of that aiwn than just the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, you know. Jesus didn't say that the only thing left to happen for this aiwn to end is the fall of Jerusalem.

Yep, the fall of the temple marked the end of the aion.  The disciples recognized that.  When Jesus said that the temple would fall, they then asked when the time of the end would be.  The temple signified much more than some building.  It was the very place where the presence of God dwelled among humanity.  It was the place where judgments were made in accordance to man's interpretation of God's law.
 

Quote from: TonyI would hope you would agree with me that all those things have not yet occurred.

Yeppers, I believe that all prophesy has come to pass. 

Quote from: TonyIt could be the "near disappearing" was the bringing in the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews spoke of in Hebrews 9, the next chapter after the one you bring up.

If you believe that the old covenant is not passed, then folks can still gain forgiveness of sin through sacrifice at the temple.  All of those agreements still stand as we would be in transition.

You brought up:

Quote from: TonyRev 16:18  And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great!
Rev 16:19  And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.

There was an immeasurable earthquake which ripped the "great city" into three parts.  This is metaphorical language for the completion of the old Jerusalem/covenant.  The "great city" was old Jerusalem:

QuoteLuk 21:20  And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near.

QuoteMat 23:37  Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it.

QuoteRom 11:2  "God did not thrust away His people" whom He foreknew. Psa. 94:14 Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3  Lord, "they killed Your prophets," "and they dug down Your altars," "and only I am left, and they seek my life." 1 Kg. 19:10

Quote1Th 2:14  For, brothers, you became imitators of the assemblies of God being in Judea in Christ Jesus, because you also suffered these things by your own fellow countrymen, as they did also by the Jews,
1Th 2:15  who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also having driven us out, and not pleasing God, and being contrary to all men,

QuoteRev 17:4  And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and being gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominations and unclean things of her fornication.
Rev 17:5  And on her forehead was a name having been written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth.
Rev 17:6  And I saw the woman being drunk from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled, seeing her, with a great marveling.

Purple was the color of the priests' robes.  I could go on and on, but maybe you get the gist?  My intent isn't to convert you to my view, but to share my view.  Even if you do not agree with it, my hope is that it will at least be understood.

QuoteThe word "Ephesians" does not appear in that letter. It was a circular letter for all believers of the nations.

Hmm, why do you think it is called and accepted as the letter to the Ephesians?  The Ephesian church is mentioned in Acts and is addressed in Revelation 2.

Quote from: TonyWhen Christ comes back to set up His millennial reign He will re-institute Gehenna.

I've never read anything about a "reinstitution".  Those who put their faith in the old covenant were cast into Gehenna just as he said. 

Quote from: TonyWill He not also not just re-institute the law but make it actually harder per His sermon on the mount?

Again, I've never read anything about a "reinstitution".  There were prophecies, and there were the fulfillment of those prophecies.  There was the law, and there was the fulfillment of that law.  I am failing to see anything additional in the bible story. 

The problem of the law was always the weakness of the flesh.  The "mind of flesh" (ie Romans 8:5-7, Col 2:18) lacked the ability to properly interpret the law.  The law was the strength of sin, as it convicted people.  Jesus completed the law with love.  "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" for example.  What must you do in order to earn the love of God?  Nothing.  That's the gospel.

Quote from: TonyI'm curious if you take "as through fire" to mean "through fire" literally as per 1 Cor.3:15?

It is both literal and symbol.  I wrote a short article sharing my biblical perspective of it:  http://www.womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1148
Sorry for the slow response time :).

Amie

As someone who's struggled with extreme uncertainty, I think maybe the person who originally started this thread is looking for a simple answer that can rest his or her worried mind. I know that with certain topics a simple answer isn't always easy to give, but I think we could offer this person a great deal of inner peace by simply reminding him or her that God died for our sins and that ALL will be forgiven. There is no such thing as an eternal punishment and, therefore, no such thing as an unforgivable sin.

Healing,

You have a kind heart. 

I do think that there 'was' such a thing as an unforgivable sin, it is mentioned in the biblical text; I just do not think that the "hell" that they experienced was after they died.  I think that it was as simple as the law calling for the biological death of lawbreakers and the folks who clung to the law instead of Jesus were not forgiven for their lawbreaking.  They just didn't accept their forgiveness so when the old system passed away, they suffered. 

Why wouldn't knowing that this was not a choice that we were even confronted with bring a person inner peace?  (rhetorical)

Amie

I know this topic is now an old one but I really want to add my :2c:. I two feel I have committed this sin. I admit that even tho I have asked over and over for forgiveness I still feel a bit condemned at times. See my problem came in (and I know I have mentioned it before on the forums) when I recently read of the unforgivable sin. Now in my mind I can't ever remember hearing about something like that before (the idea of some sin that is unforgivable). I suddenly got very very worried as in my youth i used to blaspheme (to say the least) ALL the members of the trinity when I used to get really upset about something. I feel very ashamed about this today. Anyhow once i read about this particular sin I became obsessed with trying to think back on how badly I used to do this (in my youth). Then something awful happened while I was in the shower. I put in my mind what blasphemy is (in other words cuss words) and i put the word / name H.S to this word and before i knew it i was thinking awful blasphemous thoughts (which I admit I still sometimes do because i obsess over this so much at times). I even made the mistake of verbalising one of my thoughts about The H.S (worst one imaginable) to my husband in a stupid, stupid attempt to try and establish (by discussing what i think it is and isn't) what this unforgivable sin entails exactly. I really didn't think before I spoke. What makes this worse for me is that i have been researching endlessly for weeks online what this sin is and what it isnt and it just make me feel so much worse. I love The Lord so very much and the thought that I might never get to Heaven is awful. I have been going through weeks and weeks of H-ll. Not able to eat or sleep. I joined these forums yesterday (I think or the day before) and last night was the first night I could actually sleep without tossing and turning and waking up to weird thoughts etc. I must admit tho I did have a nightmare. So to all those in the same boat you are not alone and my heart goes out to you because I know exactly how you feel.

Faith In Christ
DeeDee

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/unpardonable-sin.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Forum,

Unforgivable Sin, Forum has covered this in the Spirit of Truth. Somewhat exhaustively. Which I believe.

I have my beliefs based on the Word, Holy Spirit, Jesus. UR, US, ect.

There is a lot of Love, Agape, here. That said, I would like to add to the question, somewhat the other side of the
coin. At this time I will not explain my beliefs regarding the adding to the question.

Question: In this world, the prince's world, and Christian Society in general,
What is forgiveness for a person who has sinned against his fellow man? What are the implications for a believer,
UR or not, generally? When that person who clearly sinned against his fellow Christian, and asked for forgiveness
from Christian Society, in general and from Abba in the Name of Jesus.

This is a loaded question,
The general answer I still get is
" I will forgive you, but I Will not forget".
This was the torment I dealt with my fellow general
Christians, in the past.
K

Hi Kevin,


Forgiveness is a tough thing,  as humans we cannot really see the heart of another person.  I think it is reasonable to say that if you do wrong to me I can forgive you and that allows my heart to move past hatred and revenge.   I do not believe however my forgiveness obligates me to concede to your wishes towards me.


This is a real example in my own life.   I had a friend that I developed an e-mail relationship with, it was kinds wierd as I knew this person in real life too, but most of our interation was in e-mail.   I ended up breaking off that friendship and I did it in a very harsh and vindictive way because of some real in person things.  I was wrong for doing that,  I asked for forgiveness and that apology was accepted.  Now, what I wanted was for my friend to go back to the way things was in our friendship,  that didn't happen and I got angry over that.

In the end, I do not have the right to expect those things from anyone even if they forgive me because this person rightly may have forgiven me but it is not unforgiveness that did not allow the situation to return to what it was.

Thats called reaping what we sow.

Not sure if that helps your inquiry or not.



For instance, lets take an extreme example.  If someone rapes my daughter, I can move past the feelings, I can understand that I am not to wish the person dead, or wish that evil things happen to them.   However, I do not believe that in general I am obligated to invite the person over for dinner.

I could be wrong,  I just think sometimes things along those lines is a subtle way of testing God on the subject which we are not to do.

Forum,
Subject: sin stacking.

Sin, yes go to your brother or sister, and ask for forgiveness, and to your Abba, Abba forgives you
because of His Son, that is in the Word, again simple.

Question 1. Does Abba forgive and forget, simple question? Answer I believe is yes.

Here is where the torment, no longer for me, Shalom. But for the general Christians, is in the Broad emotional
source of torment. I see this in the forum, at times, not only from new seekers. And in my personal walk. I have seen
this destroy many real Christian, sometimes partially, sometimes completely.

Jesus of course is the Redeemer.

Example: At one time I was tormented because of this example, because many Christian, said they forgiven me
for what I had done, but it was clear they did not, [ sin stacking ] nor did they forget, generally,
and when they, generally, could
it was brought up again, not only in words, but in actions. " once a [ fill in the blanks ] alway a [ blank ]."

That is now ok with me, now. I am forgiven, completely by Abba, through Jesus. I don't think, believe there is any Scripture
that says Shalom will come, if someone, anyone forgives me, here on earth.
Again, I am sometimes repetative, I have seen
many destroyed by not knowing this in their Spirit.

Example 02. Brief: I work[ed] with a Christian for 3 years who is living in this torment. I have walked through this with him,
by Scripture and with prayer, and will continue to do so. They say they believe this Scripture, but can not believe
it apples to them, regarding this example.
I have watched this person self-destruct, slowly at times as they lost hope in being forgiven by the
world, and because this did not come, the person could not forgive them self,
despite understanding Scripture, and seeing me walk through this true forgiveness.

So, where am I going with this, gota remind myself sometimes.

Aside from the stated topic: "Unforgivable Sin".

At this time, it brings to mind: the self imposed lie, the pretense,
that this example is the other "Unforgivable Sin".

K

  There is no doubt God forgives sins , but it comes with a warning , and I find many folks blow that off  as nothing ,  and  I dont think thats  a good thing to do , we are to hate evil  and do good  , that makes the Lords work/life /sacrifice  valuable to us  personally  ...

here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 

ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."

N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you." 

 

rosered, don't you think Christ was asking the person to do the impossible? How could the man really "sin no more" since he is made a sinner (see Romans 5:19)? He must wait the day when he is made righteous (Romans 5:19) and then he truly will sin no more.

It is kind of like when God gave them the law and had them covenant with Him that they would do it all. He knew full well that they not only would not but could not keep the law. Yet He covenanted with them anyway. It is a good learning experience meant to lead them to Christ.

Quote from: rosered on November 02, 2008, 07:29:55 PM
here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 

ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."

N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you."

I don't think that Jesus was asking/demanding sinless perfection in his own strength, particularly having in the back of His Mind that the new birth was months away from being available as well as being filled with the Holy Spirit, being cleansed by the Blood and being able to participate in the Bread and Cup daily as well with all of the temporal and heavenly benefits of that, etc.  I have a strong feeling that particular details were left out of the account that aren't any of our business about a particular sin that was being dealt with, whether gluttony, masturbation, wearing his feelings on his sleeves and barking at the moon over every little self determined injustice from others, stealing, venting at a particularly beautiful loved one to him, perhaps neglecting to pray since the prophet Samuel indicating something sinful in setting aside prayer, mouthing off at God for his lot in life, some particular of the Mosaic law that we'd recognize these days as a hygiene issue, or neglecting a vow he'd made to God that if God ever healed him, then...., etc.  I believe that Jesus was putting His finger on something in particular in the guy's life and was telling him that he'd just gotten his healing, things are looking up for him, so don't screw this or that up with that temper or by getting tossed in jail for stealing, in some other way opening the door to the devil, or whatever.  Or perhaps it was a warning similar to God's warning to Cain that sin -- a particular sin -- was at the door, but he should master it.  The Pharisees with their agendas against Jesus might have had bribery and filling his mouth with slander to try to expedite matters in their plans against Him.  The fundamentalist idea that Jesus was warning him that if he ever missed the mark then he'd die of Aids doesn't really work for me any more.  A habit, a vow, a sanitation issue, or something was just around the corner that in his mind might have morally been a gray area.  Something of this nature is more likely what Jesus was appealing to him regarding.  Perhaps Jesus was telling him to quit lying about how he got what Jesus had to heal him of.  Some ol' lying war story was very likely not very cute to the Lord if it allowed him to be puffed up around others.  It could have been anything, but the sense of it being something in particular that was being addressed is too clear to me from the passage.

Permeating the popular media version of Christian doctrine is the lack of any recognition of justice.  A related very large topic is what so unethical a worldview in the minds of religious people means for their behavior!  Cartoon Christianity's popular teaching simply has no concept of justice, that there is a just recompense for doing right or wrong.  Whoever may have lived the most abominable life, if before death gets a certain idea he believes about Jesus, preferably along with a crisis experience affecting the emotions, won't suffer any consequences from a rotten life, but will receive undeserved heavenly bliss forever.  Whoever lives an upright life, sacrificing to raise good children, by not getting that certain idea to believe about Jesus before death will get no reward but will deservedly (!?) suffer eternal torment.  This should be recognized as what is indeed popularly taught.  It's either infinitude of grace, which involves nothing justly deserved, or it's infinitude of torment, which is impossible for finite, weak-willed, poor of resources, short-lived and mind-darkened man to justly earn.  Did they ever learn such simple arithmetic as 1+1=2, or, 2+2=4?

If I steal an apple God does not require infinite never ending repayment of apples.  That is not justice.  God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word.  To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed.  To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement.

Whatever must be exacted for an unforgiven sin would be appropriate to the offense.  It would be different in each case.  Blasphemy is to not harness a word with it's real value and meaning, but to unharness it, like those who said the resurrection was already past (early total preterists?)  From thoughts, to words in private, to attributing the miraculous work of God the Spirit to the demonic in order to accomplish the death of even the Messiah, these all are different things.

What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it.  The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite.  Without Divine intervention the result is infinitude of evil (which ignores what that would do to God, but I digress.)  How about the sinner paying for his sin?  And, why pay for something forgiven?  Not just "justice," but the meaning of God is little known.  This leads to other important meanings of Christs death, like His becoming Lord of the dead and the end of Adam; but, that's another subject.  It's as if the oft repeated saying in both Hebrew and Greek Scripture, even taught by Jesus, that, "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds" has no power in many minds.  Repentance and faith are recompensable deeds bringing the forgiveness of sins that is preached in Jesus name into reality in any soul. 

Yet, as a child of God I've had to undergo much suffering and in various ways in order that the motions of sin in me would be put to death.  My early belief told me this could not happen because I was forgiven. But God wants us victorious and He wants us to understand what His will is.  Sometimes, after almost 40 years, I think I am all sin, at least in my flesh; but, it is not what determines who I am for I have learned of Christ.  Notice in the beginning of the book of Judges how first an angel judges Israel for disobeying by not driving out the nations as he told them to do.  Then it is God's anger.  Finally it is God who has left the nations there so that the generations to come could be tested and learn to war.  Are the nations there as an act of sin and rebellion, or are they there as an act of God's righteous judgement, or are they there by God's design so that they may be improved?

Judges 2:1-3...
1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Judges 2:20-23...
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

Judges 3:1-2...
1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof...

This is such a large subject and I must close for now.

I've neen thinking about this. Whoops dangerous ground  :laughing7:

Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I think the Spirit that is spoken of is not the Holy Spirit to be seen as 'entity' (by lack of a better word).
But more as the the idea/concept of what Jesus was actually doing on earth 2000 years ago.

An animal lamb (real sheep) had fairly clean blood that could cover sin for a while.
Then the Lamb of God came (Jesus) His blood was not only so pure it could (and will) cover all sins; it also cleaned/purged all sins.
The blasphemy spoken of in "Unforgiveable Sin" is not fully trusting what Jesus did. Trying to get saved by works. And even that (works) is no real problem with God I think because He surely loves seeing His children doing good things.
Things go awfully wrong with works when you do them to add to the power of Jesus.
With that you claim the blood of Jesus was not 100% pure. And that is the blasphemy spoken of.
IMHO....

ET might just be a form of that blasphemy. Afterall they claim the cleaning power of Jesus' blood was not enough in 95% of all cases and there fore God is 'forced' to kick them in the eternal BBQ.

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM
I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

I think they can be the same people.

QuoteThe verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ.

Every non Christians plus some 'false' Christians.

But all of them can be converted to Christ in this life. Just like I personally came out the of the atheist group and am now wandering around towards the Christian group.

QuoteThe verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices.

I can't look in the minds of people but I think this group could contain a large if  not the largest part of the Christians.
There are no more animal sacrifices done nowaday by Christians. (I think)
But aren't 'good works' exactly the same?
Or doubts that the blood of Jesus was not enough for all/your own sins?

I think it greately depends on how strict the rules are applied. If extremely strict then all, except Jesus ofcourse, will suffer the second death.
Even the most devoted person gets dirty during his/her lifetime. I think it will get very busy in the showers of salvation... :pointlaugh:

QuoteJust an observation Iv'e made.

Likewise  :laughing7:

 
  Very  deep subject  fellows ,  and great points taken 
I  for one  know that the flesh cannot inherit the Things of God [Spirit] 
to me that is  why those whom

  do trodden under foot  the son of God are in trouble , it is because the  Son of God [Christ annointing ] must be in you  , near at the door , your hearts door  to recive them things of God to make us also sons of God  , it will not happen when  rejecting the [gift of grace] that is forgiveness  to me  , so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE ,   That is why Paulemphasized   in His words   about FAITH & GRACE  in and through Jesus Christ  making  It/sacrifice  effective !!  taking ahold  of , rooting within you , we cannot do it alone  , its not  possible without Gods Spirit and annointing &Christs presence within us    to me ...
  ps  the Fire  of Gods consuming is the fleshy part of us that  must be taken out of the way /consummed , that  Christ [the LIGHT ]  remains 

 
Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 05:30:55 PM
so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE

Exactly.
And when you leave out (complete) faith, you basicly reverted to sacrifices....

Quote from: martincisneros on November 03, 2008, 04:30:13 AM

Quote from: rosered on November 02, 2008, 07:29:55 PM
here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 

ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."
 

N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you."

I don't think that Jesus was asking/demanding sinless perfection in his own strength, particularly having in the back of His Mind that the new birth was months away from being available as well as being filled with the Holy Spirit, being cleansed by the Blood and being able to participate in the Bread and Cup daily as well with all of the temporal and heavenly benefits of that, etc.  I have a strong feeling that particular details were left out of the account that aren't any of our business about a particular sin that was being dealt with, whether gluttony, masturbation, wearing his feelings on his sleeves and barking at the moon over every little self determined injustice from others, stealing, venting at a particularly beautiful loved one to him, perhaps neglecting to pray since the prophet Samuel indicating something sinful in setting aside prayer, mouthing off at God for his lot in life, some particular of the Mosaic law that we'd recognize these days as a hygiene issue, or neglecting a vow he'd made to God that if God ever healed him, then...., etc.  I believe that Jesus was putting His finger on something in particular in the guy's life and was telling him that he'd just gotten his healing, things are looking up for him, so don't screw this or that up with that temper or by getting tossed in jail for stealing, in some other way opening the door to the devil, or whatever.  Or perhaps it was a warning similar to God's warning to Cain that sin -- a particular sin -- was at the door, but he should master it.  The Pharisees with their agendas against Jesus might have had bribery and filling his mouth with slander to try to expedite matters in their plans against Him.  The fundamentalist idea that Jesus was warning him that if he ever missed the mark then he'd die of Aids doesn't really work for me any more.  A habit, a vow, a sanitation issue, or something was just around the corner that in his mind might have morally been a gray area.  Something of this nature is more likely what Jesus was appealing to him regarding.  Perhaps Jesus was telling him to quit lying about how he got what Jesus had to heal him of.  Some ol' lying war story was very likely not very cute to the Lord if it allowed him to be puffed up around others.  It could have been anything, but the sense of it being something in particular that was being addressed is too clear to me from the passage.

I do agree Martin , it takes  that drawing near to God and Christ ,  the Spirit to remain in us to keep us safe  from harm .. God lov ya Bro ...

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2008, 05:36:18 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2008, 05:30:55 PM
so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE

Exactly.
And when you leave out (complete) faith, you basicly reverted to sacrifices....

Yes  WW , and the Lord loves obedience over sacrifices !
   I looked us  believe and  that means the same thing as obedience !

yup, it is a command, and He provided the way,
I don't mean this in any disrespect to the Word of Jesus,
I look at it as being a goal.
Be easy on me!

k

Quote from: Kevin on November 04, 2008, 12:52:57 AM
yup, it is a command, and He provided the way,
I don't mean this in any disrespect to the Word of Jesus,
I look at it as being a goal.
Be easy on me!

k

Easy on you Kevin lol .. Paul called it the same Bro ! :icon_flower: and I noted though Paul  did not see himself as perfect [complete] yet , He knew there were some that  were!!  :thumbsup:


Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.   

QuoteBut aren't 'good works' exactly the same?
Or doubts that the blood of Jesus was not enough for all/your own sins?

I think it greately depends on how strict the rules are applied. If extremely strict then all, except Jesus ofcourse, will suffer the second death.
Even the most devoted person gets dirty during his/her lifetime. I think it will get very busy in the showers of salvation...

Yes, in my mind I can see how I've committed the unpardonable by calling evil good and also by not trusting that the sacrifice of Christ wasn't enough. But something about the context of the scriptures make me think that these things are different than what I have done. In the Mathew version He says that 'every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men' and even 'every word spoken against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him'. Then He goes on to say that those who blaspheme the Spirit will not be forgiven in 'this age', or the 'age to come'. In my understanding, the current age was before Jesus died when the temple was still standing. The age after that was after Jesus died and the temple was still standing. This seems to be very time-specific. Perhaps the specific judgement against the Pharisee and the backsliding Christian was the national judgement.

Does it have any application to me? I believe so in that if I set myself in the position to call good, evil, and also to not trust in the sacrifice of Jesus that I do suffer a self-imposed judgement. But it is not the wrath of God as it was then, but rather a law of nature if you will.

Anyway, thank you for responding.

Love, Sarah

Sarah,

Please don't read the following line as rude but just clumpsy with words:
What does that matter?

The most important point you just made is that the unpardonable is pardonable. It may take a while but it will be forgiven.
Personally I think the sin will be even forgiven in this lifetime if you repent in this lifetime.
Isn't all that sin vs punishment/correction about God showing us He was always right.
If you come to that understanding yourself (=repent) then there is no need anymore for God to teach what you already know.

About what you wrote about the temple. Personally I would find that strange because should my cursing of the HS be less punished than exactly the same curse (or even less) during the time of Jesus?

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
That's not just about black/white, poor/rich, etc.
But alse about lived then/live now.

Just my  :2c:

QuoteThe most important point you just made is that the unpardonable is pardonable. It may take a while but it will be forgiven.

I believe the point I was trying to make is that we are not appointed to wrath, it was to a specific people in a specific time. I showed how I could apply the 'unpardonable' to me in this day and age, and yet even my application isn't exactly what Jesus was talking about. To say that we all commit the 'unpardonable' because we do these things I believe is to wretch these verses out of context. The argument that God is no respector of persons implies that we must all must have the same walk. This is obviously not true, but we do all have the same destination.

 
  Hi Sarah  and WW  and all ,
  I do know that your saying and this helped me to see that you might be right Sarah , see just how the Word of God is worded  , it makes me think many times  what I  have missed  before ,   note and consider this, it Says as  they  Teach & Speak , the blasphmy seems to be related to a teaching  and  a Speech dont you think ?

  and the seven times passing over in Daniel as well as 7 churches and the warnings as well as the comending by the Lord , seems  to imply  a complete [7 means complete]  course  of time and certain group of people ,  Now I know the word of God is/can mean  perpetual [anion] 
so it may be a consistant  event that applys to all times and all peoples 
because Gods Word is  unchangable /permanant /continuous ...

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.

Do you  think it is possible to do the unforgivale sin ?,  when you know the Truth ,  that is the Warning    ,it can be done in ignorance though 

  blaspheming His Holy Name  is  upholding the Law yet breaking it too
that is a  hypocricy  , and an evil work   being done to me  , why would anyone want to be apart of that? see what I mean ?  who wants to join in religion when it seems to destroy  any good ?  gives God a bad rap to me  :(   I hope I was clear , I dont have  the right  words  to explain very well   at times and  it frustrates me 
God love ya all

  Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.   letter of the Law   to me  Paul is saying ?

Rosered,

This sin absolutly has to do with speaking. It has to do with speaking evil of the works that Christ did. Perhaps they didn't believe He was the Christ, but even worse than that, they called Him Beelzebub for driving out demons and healing the sick. When you think about that, how sick is that? I may not agree with every healing evalgelist, but I rejoice when someone is healed. Praise God!

Mathew 12:36-37  But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall seak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

It was the rich man that went to hell. The torment was on his tongue. He was suffering the results of what he spoke when he 'faired suptueously'.

QuoteDo you  think it is possible to do the unforgivale sin ?,  when you know the Truth ,  that is the Warning    ,it can be done in ignorance though 

  blaspheming His Holy Name  is  upholding the Law yet breaking it too
that is a  hypocricy  , and an evil work   being done to me 

There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin, but rather a sin that would not be forgiven in 2 ages, and I believe those ages are past. That isn't to say their isn't consequence for being a 'pharisee' in today's day and age. I still believe you reap what you sow.

I understand that the evil work is done to you in that if you call yourself a Christian, then your name is blasphemed because the world may associate the evil work of Christian hypocrits with you. I completely understand this, but have come to the point that I don't care. Let your light so shine before men that they glorify your Father in heaven.

QuoteNow I know the word of God is/can mean  perpetual [anion] 
so it may be a consistant  event that applys to all times and all peoples 
because Gods Word is  unchangable /permanant /continuous ...

I can see this. I perhaps see it as more of a spiritual journey now though. Whereas in bible times, the Romans were the instrument that destroyed the 'chaff' of Israel, now God destroys within me the chaff. It is the Holy Spirit within that writes His laws upon my heart and mind and therefore burning away the chaff with unquenchable fire. If I were a 'pharisee' then perhaps I would resist His law of love to be written on my heart in this age/life(which has it's own miserable consequenses of living a miserable life), then perhaps at the end of this life I would suffer on my day of judgement with total loss and weeping and knashing of teeth. Even then, Christ is the savior of all men and I would be saved from my sin.

Now I would love lots and lots of opinions on this. Why are the following verses not enough to debunk the idea of an unpardonable or unforgivable sin? Even if you translate Aion etc. into the words "eternal" or "forever" or you see it as "never has forgiveness"

1 John 1:7-9
Acts 13:39

:icon_flower:
Blessings
Dee

DD,

I see no reference to time in:
1 John 1:7-9  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It just tells us all are sinners and that the believe in Jesus will clean the sins.
Plus it doesn't exclude any type of sin. So it ranges from stealing a grain of sand from a dessert to the unforgivable sin you are aiming at.
Plus nothing tells us when we need to believe in Jesus. Yesterday? Today? Tommorrow? In 5 trillion years?

Acts 13:39  And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
For me it says:
The law of Moses was a good first step but not good enough to 'fix' everything.
Then Jesus came and believing in Him is enough to 'fix' all wrongs/sins.
As I understand it the unforgivable sin is so special, in a negative way, because it is the sin of rejecting the HS or IMO more like the whole Bible.
But as soon as you start believing the unforgivable is converted in forgivable. When? Don't ask me. But God/Jesus predicts there will be a time that all believe. And who believes is automatically cleaned from sins. And when clean from sins you get your spot in heaven.
=> Perhaps we will be neighbors. Don't walk on my lawn!!! :laughing7:

So basically I nowhere see a reference to certain types of sin. Neither do I see a time limitation.
The only clear thing is that all will be justified eventually.

So Tony, you are seeing what I am seeing? You are in agreement that it could pretty much cancel out thoughts of unforgivable sins? I already checked in a few bible translations, and ALL is ALL in ALL of them lol. :laughing7:

So I might be onto something here hmmmmmmmmm.  :dontknow:

If it reads all then it is all. There can be exceptions but then they have to be clear from context of made clear in a very near verse.
And by that I do not mean pick a verse with all and 500 pages pick the word 'often' and then jump to conclusions.

I don't know if it's a Biblical correct thing to do but I think every proof should be inside one book.
God doesn't lie.
Now assume book ABC is a very short book. It contains just one verse: "I God creator of everything hereby state that everything that ever lived and will live will be in heaven"
All the people who have read those words gone to hell and ask God what about book ABC?
God laughs.... Well you see book XYZ wasn't printed yet back then. But now, 100 years later, it is you can cleary read that I made an excepetion by stating "If you eat 2 tomatoes every monday evening between 19:00 and 21:00"

The Bible wasn't completed instantly. So some people missed out book XYZ...

I hope it makes some sense to someone  :laughing7:

---

Yesterday and today I've been watching Bruce Almighty and Evan Almighty.
Somehow in a funny way that's how I see God. Just watching how his children make a mess of thing. Poking some fun at them. Giving them a lesson to learn. And then work toward teh happy end :HeartThrob:

People who accept Jesus as Saviour are given Aionian life. The Spirit is the one who draws men and woman to God. If you do not accept the prodding of the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as Saviour you must wait till the end of time to go to heaven.

Thus the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not accepting the prodding of the Spirit as it trys to draw you to Christ.

Being worried that you may have committed this sin is proof that you have not.

Quote from: mrsocko on February 23, 2009, 05:44:25 AM
Being worried that you may have committed this sin is proof that you have not.

:scratchhead:

The only way people do not get Aionian life is by not accepting Jesus as Saviour. If you are worried you have committed the blaphemy of the Holy Spirit then you are concerned for your salvation. Thus the Spirit is still prodding you and drawing you.

The blasphemy is denying the Spirit or not believing the Spirit.

Quote from: mrsocko on February 24, 2009, 05:22:57 AM
The only way people do not get Aionian life is by not accepting Jesus as Saviour. If you are worried you have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit then you are concerned for your salvation. Thus the Spirit is still prodding you and drawing you.

The blasphemy is denying the Spirit or not believing the Spirit.

At fourteen years of age, I pondered the universe, and sought truth. And, have been on the road to Damascus - in His Presence. No worries, and there is much more to walking with Him than an acceptance, which I am sure you know, or will know.

"Faith is not believing God can, it's knowing that He Will."

peacemaker

KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

I have sinned many times the same sin even now. When the Word does finally get through, get into my essence, (Temple), then I feel whole and I 'hear' the Word go forth in my being to sin no more.

cp

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Hey Sarah, Don't you think these words are spoken to all people. Scripture is alive and is working in all people all the time.

I have personally trodden under foot the Son God and I fully expect this sin not to be forgiven. I hope it is to be crucified.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:26:03 PM

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Hey Sarah, Don't you think these words are spoken to all people. Scripture is alive and is working in all people all the time.

I have personally trodden under foot the Son God and I fully expect this sin not to be forgiven. I hope it is to be crucified.

cp

for me, no


Jer 31:32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:



no matter how hard we try, God is not in an old covenant relationship with us. 


that is not to say there isn't spiritual lessons we can learn and apply; but imo; the only "old covenant" we are under is one we "set up in our own minds" with God;  not one he sets up with us. 

those to go through the "fire" in Hebrews 10 and 12; are those who were in "covenant" with God, who failed to see/accept that the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. 

that is was vanishing away. 

Quote from: Zeek on February 25, 2009, 03:39:26 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:26:03 PM

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Hey Sarah, Don't you think these words are spoken to all people. Scripture is alive and is working in all people all the time.

I have personally trodden under foot the Son God and I fully expect this sin not to be forgiven. I hope it is to be crucified.

cp

for me, no


Jer 31:32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:



no matter how hard we try, God is not in an old covenant relationship with us. 


that is not to say there isn't spiritual lessons we can learn and apply; but imo; the only "old covenant" we are under is one we "set up in our own minds" with God;  not one he sets up with us. 

those to go through the "fire" in Hebrews 10 and 12; are those who were in "covenant" with God, who failed to see/accept that the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. 

that is was vanishing away. 

Zeek, I fall into living in the 'old covenant' all the time. This sure does clash with the freedom that Jesus Christ has wrought and is working within my being but it is a perfect explanation of what seems to be happening to me as I go from grace to grace.

It sure is vanishing away though but the key here is it is in the process of vanishing away.

cp

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:48:04 PM

Quote from: Zeek on February 25, 2009, 03:39:26 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:26:03 PM

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Hey Sarah, Don't you think these words are spoken to all people. Scripture is alive and is working in all people all the time.

I have personally trodden under foot the Son God and I fully expect this sin not to be forgiven. I hope it is to be crucified.

cp

for me, no


Jer 31:32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:



no matter how hard we try, God is not in an old covenant relationship with us. 


that is not to say there isn't spiritual lessons we can learn and apply; but imo; the only "old covenant" we are under is one we "set up in our own minds" with God;  not one he sets up with us. 

those to go through the "fire" in Hebrews 10 and 12; are those who were in "covenant" with God, who failed to see/accept that the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. 

that is was vanishing away. 

Zeek, I fall into living in the 'old covenant' all the time. This sure does clash with the freedom that Jesus Christ has wrought and is working within my being but it is a perfect explanation of what seems to be happening to me as I go from grace to grace.

It sure is vanishing away though but the key here is it is in the process of vanishing away.

cp

yes, you fall into it,

but God is not in old covenant with yu, even if u fall into it.  make any sense?? 

Quote from: Zeek on February 25, 2009, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:48:04 PM

Quote from: Zeek on February 25, 2009, 03:39:26 PM

Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:26:03 PM

Quote from: Sarah on November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM

QuoteHebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Hey Sarah, Don't you think these words are spoken to all people. Scripture is alive and is working in all people all the time.

I have personally trodden under foot the Son God and I fully expect this sin not to be forgiven. I hope it is to be crucified.

cp

for me, no


Jer 31:32  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:



no matter how hard we try, God is not in an old covenant relationship with us. 


that is not to say there isn't spiritual lessons we can learn and apply; but imo; the only "old covenant" we are under is one we "set up in our own minds" with God;  not one he sets up with us. 

those to go through the "fire" in Hebrews 10 and 12; are those who were in "covenant" with God, who failed to see/accept that the old covenant was fulfilled in Christ. 

that is was vanishing away. 

Zeek, I fall into living in the 'old covenant' all the time. This sure does clash with the freedom that Jesus Christ has wrought and is working within my being but it is a perfect explanation of what seems to be happening to me as I go from grace to grace.

It sure is vanishing away though but the key here is it is in the process of vanishing away.

cp

yes, you fall into it,

but God is not in old covenant with yu, even if u fall into it.  make any sense?? 

Yes Brother, makes all the sense in the world. God is always pulling me into the New.

cp

Quote from: SeekerSA on February 27, 2008, 07:33:54 AM
Query from Chris

Hi, please I really need your help. I think I have committed the unforgivable sin. I was on bed reading the word of God and came by the scripture which talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Instantly I thought a disgusting thought in my head. Curse words came into my head and I don't know how but I cursed the Holy Spirit. Sometime it comes back into my head and I hate it.

I don't know why this happened, but after reading on the internet I saw that it had happened to other people. I don't hate the Holy Spirit, I love God and I was even praying that the Holy Spirit would come into me and help me to serve God better. I was really hungry for God and growing spiritually each day. Now I am absolutely terrified that I am going to Hell, it is so frightening.

It has ruined me and I have stopped going to church. No matter how much I read about it on sites like these and people tell me that I haven't committed this sin I still think I am lost forever. It seems nothing can comfort me because I am just so unsure. How can I know, or anyone else know for sure? Doesn't it say that if you committ this sin that you while not be forgiven in this age, or the age to come and that all blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not? I want forgiveness so badly, but it feels so far away from me, I feel like I am beyond forgiveness.
Please please help me, thanks, Chris.

Hi SeekerSA, to "blaspheme" means to DEFAME or as the latin I read once in an old manuscript said "to hold cheap".  It means to devalue something.  If we say God is all powerful and yet show otherwise in the things we do or say and purposely devalue His very nature and character then we are devaluing the very BEING of God. We are presenting a LESSER god then what God actually is and passing it off as if that is God's nature.  If we have been enlightened to the Truth and act contrarywise to this enlightenment then we are in affect committing blasphemy against that which enlightens us (The Holy Spirit).  And for such there is not forgiveness.  But doesn't this means we are never to be saved? - no.  For consider a fire that can't be extinguished (unquenchable fire), that fire will burn and burn until it runs out of or exhausts all its fuel.  This is what shall happen to us.  For when we blasphemed the Holy Spirit we have built up a fuel that can't be quenched that must be consumed.  Like the unforgiving servant, we must be punished until we have paid back all the debt that is owed but eventually the debt gets paid.

Paul

I was dealing with this exact same issue, and do still at times, but God has shown me that he forgives all, OF EVERY ONE OF MY SINS, just as he promised this to David.

Consider Isaiah 55:3:

3, Incline your ear [submit and consent to the divine will] and come to Me; hear, and your soul will revive; and I will make an everlasting covenant or league with you, even the sure mercy (kindness, goodwill, and compassion) promised to David. All that God promised to David is promised to us!  :bigGrin:

So God said: when he would make his new covenant with mankind he would promise us exactly the same love that he promised to David. This is what David said concerning God's forgiveness in Psalms 103:

"1BLESS (AFFECTIONATELY, gratefully praise) the Lord, O my soul; and all that is [deepest] within me, bless His holy name!
    2Bless (affectionately, gratefully praise) the Lord, O my soul, and forget not [one of] all His benefits--

    3Who forgives [every one of] all your iniquities, Who heals [each one of] all your diseases,".

Also consider what God promises Isreal through David in Psalms 130:

"8And He will redeem Israel from all their iniquities."

Pharisees are included in Israel. God literally promised the forgiveness of ALL OF EVERY ONE OF OUR SINS! So don't worry friend, God has forgiven you, just as he promised he would! :bigGrin:

I believe J. Preston Eby teaches that only those in that age (age of Law, prior to the cross and the "age of grace") were the only ones that even could commit the sin Jesus was talking about.  That the "age to come" is actually now...so all will be reconciled in the future, just as you say.

Greetings

IMO to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to not allow the conviction of sin that is made apparent from the presence of the Holy Spirit in us to bring us to repentance

Therefore those who do so "fall away" and continue to live in their sins and it is no longer possible to bring them to repentance. They have turned their back on God and now await the fearful judgement written of in Hebrews.

Hbr 6:4    For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


Hbr 6:5    And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Hbr 6:6    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


Hbr 6:7    For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:


Hbr 6:8    But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.


Blessings and much love in Christ Jesus

Doug

I understand what you wrote.
But I have a problem with a defenition.

Hbr 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

When exactly have you 'tasted'
When someone stuffed a tract in your hand when you where drunk.
Or when you see angels appear and have lenghty converstation with you?
Both are extremes I'm aware of that. But where is "this at minimum" point?

IMO when one has been baptized in the Holy Spirt they have then tasted of the good things

The many calls that individuals get upon them to come to the Lord are the works of God but I would phrase that for lack of knowing how better to word it would be the difference between a work upon somebody versus a work within someone.

IMO we have been saved to overcome sin and get started on the path to Holiness of to sin no more. However and unfortunately there are those Christians who think nothing of lying, stealing etc etc. They have become comfortable with sin despite having tasted of Him (we are to drink His blood and eat His flesh) and have fallen away as a dog that returns to his vomit.

Doug

Hebrews 6:4-6, AV...
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance...

"Repentance" is a MIND word:  meta (g)noia, meta MIND, after-mind, change-mind, which is very imnportant here; because, having a new mind, the mind of Christ, and then falling away, another new mind is not going to happen.  There is recovery at this point, as best as I understand.  One must change behaviour, bringing it back in line with Christ and the gospel.  In the subsequent vs.7-8 the rain is used to illustrate

"But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." (Hb 6:8)  Some serious weeding is on the agenda.  Those are what are making the land unfruitful, "the cares of this life and the abundance of riches" according to Jesus.

A little later He points to Abraham's patient endurance to obtain the prize.

Quote from: reFORMer on May 03, 2009, 02:23:14 AM
Hebrews 6:4-6, AV...
"Repentance" is a MIND word:  meta (g)noia, meta MIND, after-mind, change-mind, which is very imnportant here; because, having a new mind, the mind of Christ, and then falling away, another new mind is not going to happen.  There is recovery at this point, as best as I understand.  One must change behaviour, bringing it back in line with Christ and the gospel.  In the subsequent vs.7-8 the rain is used to illustrate

"But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." (Hb 6:8)  Some serious weeding is on the agenda.  Those are what are making the land unfruitful, "the cares of this life and the abundance of riches" according to Jesus.

:thumbsup:

Conservative anabaptists (Amish, Brethren, and Mennonite) teach that the unforgivable sin is willfully turning away from the workings of the Holy Spirit in your heart and resuming a life of blantant sin. Continuing in a universalist vein, the way Hans Denck and some of the Ante-Nicene fathers interpret it: man can not achieve victory over sin on their own, the Holy Spirit is the only agent that can purify the heart. A person who overcomes sin in this life with the help of the Holy Spirit does not need to fear the fiery judgment of God in the Lake of Fire. Someone who rejects the Holy Spirit in this life and lives a sinful life will not be forgiven his sins and will need to be judged, purified, and baptized by the Holy Spirit in the Lake of Fire before they can come to God.

Here is a very good study on the topic:

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW14.htm

Quote from: Johann on July 29, 2009, 05:49:36 AM
Conservative anabaptists (Amish, Brethren, and Mennonite) teach that the unforgivable sin is willfully turning away from the workings of the Holy Spirit in your heart and resuming a life of blantant sin. Continuing in a universalist vein, the way Hans Denck and some of the Ante-Nicene fathers interpret it: man can not achieve victory over sin on their own, the Holy Spirit is the only agent that can purify the heart. A person who overcomes sin in this life with the help of the Holy Spirit does not need to fear the fiery judgment of God in the Lake of Fire. Someone who rejects the Holy Spirit in this life and lives a sinful life will not be forgiven his sins and will need to be judged, purified, and baptized by the Holy Spirit in the Lake of Fire before they can come to God.

But near His death Jesus said: "Forgive them Father they don't know what they do."
Isn't rejecting the HS the same? Perhaps most people don't even notice the HS being at work? Plus can you actually reject the HS if the HS has done it's job well? It takes evil to reject HS. So the HS is rejected by the part of you that isn't transformed yet.
The HS was send because someone is in the wrong state of mind. Is it suprising the HS is rejected because that's basicly the reason it came in the first place. Rejecting Father/Son/HS is all the same thing for me.

Does that make any sense?

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2009, 09:00:37 AM

Quote from: Johann on July 29, 2009, 05:49:36 AM
Conservative anabaptists (Amish, Brethren, and Mennonite) teach that the unforgivable sin is willfully turning away from the workings of the Holy Spirit in your heart and resuming a life of blantant sin. Continuing in a universalist vein, the way Hans Denck and some of the Ante-Nicene fathers interpret it: man can not achieve victory over sin on their own, the Holy Spirit is the only agent that can purify the heart. A person who overcomes sin in this life with the help of the Holy Spirit does not need to fear the fiery judgment of God in the Lake of Fire. Someone who rejects the Holy Spirit in this life and lives a sinful life will not be forgiven his sins and will need to be judged, purified, and baptized by the Holy Spirit in the Lake of Fire before they can come to God.

But near His death Jesus said: "Forgive them Father they don't know what they do."
Isn't rejecting the HS the same? Perhaps most people don't even notice the HS being at work? Plus can you actually reject the HS if the HS has done it's job well? It takes evil to reject HS. So the HS is rejected by the part of you that isn't transformed yet.
The HS was send because someone is in the wrong state of mind. Is it suprising the HS is rejected because that's basicly the reason it came in the first place. Rejecting Father/Son/HS is all the same thing for me.

Does that make any sense?

One receives the Holy Spirit because they have sought after God but then when one resists the working of the Holy Spirit they are then taking His Name in vain (by the old definition of vanity) and without repenting "crucify Him afresh" that in turn allows the unclean spirit to regain control of their heart

Blessings

Doug

 
Good point about not knowing  we are having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit working in us ,

  Do you think Peter did when he   wrangled with Christ Jesus about going to the cross  and Jesus told him get behind me satan /adversary?


he did not say Peter a mere man,  but satan  :mshock:

  the Holy Spirit is to teach us and comfort us and correct us , if we reject that  work of God are we not unteachable ?

  Jesus went up again to the Father as He was sent  here , by the Father  so that the Holy Spirit would come and comfort and teach us TRUTH

Seems the stubborn and stiff necked are unteachable ,  they do not bow down /repent of their ways of doing  :sigh:

 

  ps I f you cannot be changed in the mind/heart dont that make you stuck  in a  sensual and  devilish  trap ?




And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 


Mar 3:25   And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 


Mar 3:26   And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 


Mar 3:27   No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. 


Mar 3:28 ¶ Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 


Mar 3:29   But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 


Mar 3:30   Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit

  that is speaking evil of the Truth and it is dangerous trap  :mshock:

Many times this term "unpardonable sin" is a stepping stone to reinforce Gods judgments for an eternal hell.

But the passage on blasphemy is about suffering the consequenses and paying the penalty.   

A penalty is paid so no forgiveness is required.  As I said in a previous message, this sin is about reaping what we sow, a penalty is required to be paid and everyone will pay it so there is still no danger of eternal hell or anihillation concerning this.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 29, 2009, 04:33:25 PM


Many times this term "unpardonable sin" is a stepping stone to reinforce Gods judgments for an eternal hell.

But the passage on blasphemy is about suffering the consequenses and paying the penalty.   

A penalty is paid so no forgiveness is required.  As I said in a previous message, this sin is about reaping what we sow, a penalty is required to be paid and everyone will pay it so there is still no danger of eternal hell or anihillation concerning this.

Yes Paul.  This is exactly what those verses mean.  The unforgiving servant is an exmaple of this. In that parable the servant receives forgiveness of his sins and then doesn't forgive others of the same sins against him.  Anytime we hold God's Truth out as a lie or of vain use (knowing otherwise) then we commit blasphemy.  Ever notice the Beast in Revelation has a name? - that name is Blasphemy.  That can only pertain to an entity that knows the Truth and doesn't adhere to it.  To know the Truth and continue in sin.

Paul

Quote from: Livelystone on July 29, 2009, 04:13:00 PM
One receives the Holy Spirit because they have sought after God  but then when one resists the working of the Holy Spirit they are then taking His Name in vain (by the old definition of vanity) and without repenting "crucify Him afresh" that in turn allows the unclean spirit to regain control of their heart

I wonder if that's true. It's a bit of a chicken and egg question.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him....
"come to me"=man asking the HS
"draw"=sending the HS by Father

So I wonder if those who need HS (most) are searching for God.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 27, 2009, 10:28:58 AM

Quote from: Livelystone on July 29, 2009, 04:13:00 PM
One receives the Holy Spirit because they have sought after God  but then when one resists the working of the Holy Spirit they are then taking His Name in vain (by the old definition of vanity) and without repenting "crucify Him afresh" that in turn allows the unclean spirit to regain control of their heart

I wonder if that's true. It's a bit of a chicken and egg question.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him....
"come to me"=man asking the HS
"draw"=sending the HS by Father



How are you determining who needs the HS most?........ have not all fallen short and in need of salvation?

What do you mean by the chicken or egg question ?.......... can someone receive forgiveness or Jesus Blood shed for the cleansing of sins without FIRST going to the Cross............ can someone come into the presence of God without His Blood for a cover

Was Paul wrong when he preached of the power of the Cross ............or was he right  :thumbsup:

Blessings

Doug

So I wonder if those who need HS (most) are searching for God.

QuoteWhat do you mean by the chicken or egg question ?..........

It's just an expression we have here. You know what was first the chicken or the egg.
a] In this case did the HS come to the person because the person searched?
b] Or did the person search in because the HS already came.

John 6:44 seems to say b

QuoteWas Paul wrong when he preached of the power of the Cross ............or was he right

What are you trying to say? And how is it relevant for this topic?

QuoteHow are you determining who needs the HS most?........ have not all fallen short and in need of salvation?

Seems very obvious to me but is not really relevant to this topic.

The sin is defined as attributing that of God to the devil.  But from what I understand about the circumstances, the Pharisees were right there all along when Jesus was performing his miracles, and it seemed like it was pretty convincing, but the Pharisees had such hard hearts towards anything against their system of theology that they refused to even see Jesus as the son of God, despite all the miracles.  They should have seen it, but instead blamed it on satan.  Plus it seems logical that the most hardened would take the longest time to be forgiven due to extreme stubborness. 

But what I wondering about attributing something of God to the Devil mean you mistaked something Godly for being demonic, due to limited knowledge.  Problem is, I have accused many things of being demonic, like various Marian Apparitions, the Government, the Current Church system, illness, annoyances from relatives, ect.  Mostly because they yeilded bad fruits, and not because of any pre-concieved notion. 

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on July 16, 2010, 01:31:18 AM
The sin is defined as attributing that of God to the devil.  But from what I understand about the circumstances, the Pharisees were right there all along when Jesus was performing his miracles, and it seemed like it was pretty convincing, but the Pharisees had such hard hearts towards anything against their system of theology that they refused to even see Jesus as the son of God, despite all the miracles.  They should have seen it, but instead blamed it on satan.  Plus it seems logical that the most hardened would take the longest time to be forgiven due to extreme stubborness. 

But what I wondering about attributing something of God to the Devil mean you mistaked something Godly for being demonic, due to limited knowledge.  Problem is, I have accused many things of being demonic, like various Marian Apparitions, the Government, the Current Church system, illness, annoyances from relatives, ect.  Mostly because they yeilded bad fruits, and not because of any pre-concieved notion. 

The best explanation I have heard was a willful, and knowledgeable acts of attributing acts of the Holy Spirit with that of the devil.  This would be someone who hates God and is trying to slander the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: 97531 on February 27, 2008, 07:33:54 AM
Query from Chris

Hi, please I really need your help. I think I have committed the unforgivable sin. I was on bed reading the word of God and came by the scripture which talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Instantly I thought a disgusting thought in my head. Curse words came into my head and I don't know how but I cursed the Holy Spirit. Sometime it comes back into my head and I hate it.

I don't know why this happened, but after reading on the internet I saw that it had happened to other people. I don't hate the Holy Spirit, I love God and I was even praying that the Holy Spirit would come into me and help me to serve God better. I was really hungry for God and growing spiritually each day. Now I am absolutely terrified that I am going to Hell, it is so frightening.

It has ruined me and I have stopped going to church. No matter how much I read about it on sites like these and people tell me that I haven't committed this sin I still think I am lost forever. It seems nothing can comfort me because I am just so unsure. How can I know, or anyone else know for sure? Doesn't it say that if you committ this sin that you while not be forgiven in this age, or the age to come and that all blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not? I want forgiveness so badly, but it feels so far away from me, I feel like I am beyond forgiveness.
Please please help me, thanks, Chris.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil015.html

To Chris:

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of the war between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. He says, "WHo shall free me from the body of this death! Thank God for Jesus! Therefore(because of Christs sacrifice) there is now no more condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk in the spirit, and not according to the flesh."

You see, when you believed, every sin was wiped away. Those Pharisees never believed. What you are experiencing is the railing of the judged carnal managainst the resurrection of Christ within you. Its OK. You are not to be condemned. You must simply see the serpent nailed to the stick in the wilderness(I was crucified in Christ)

In "doing away with the body of the sins of the flesh" we are set free from the body of this death- BY FORGIVENESS. It is the very condemnation you are feeling that empowers the carnal mind, the "strong man", the Pharoah within who would drag you back into bondage.

When you see the two as separate, one- judged already in the crucifixion of Christ.....the other-raised in new life through the resurrection of Jesus within your spirit(come out of the tomb of Adam, raised and ascended to the right hand as a son- YOU WILL DECLARE TO THAT VOICE< GET BEHIND ME SATAN(accuser/adversary) I love my deliverer.

You wil then begin to experience more and more freedom from the carnal man.

The carnal "old" man is disarmed at the cross, "For He disarmed the principalities and powers making an open show of them".

He did this by taking away the laws contained in statutes and putting you into a new law- LOVE AND THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS- which is only in you by the HOLY SPIRIt who is Christ and God who you love.

If you did not love them you would not be so mortified by the thought that you may hav committed an unforgiveable sin.

You havent. You are merely being tricked by the adversary, beaten by the taskmaster, and accused by the accuser. God has shut his mout by the blood of His Son, MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY ACCUSATION WIELDED AGAINST YOU.

Rejoice when you hear that voice, the adversary is angry because HIS TIME IS GROWING SHORTER AND SHORTER AS THE LIGHT Of CHRIST ARISES IN YOU FROM THE DAWN UNTO THE FULL NOON

He is seeking to beseige the saints and wear them out, remember, he boasts against the most high and speaks blashphemies(THAT IS NOT YOU- IT IS THE BITTER ECHOES OF THE DEAD MAN) but their deliverer will come out of Zion like the wind and blow the cobwebs of that old liar away.

the old man is crucified with Christ. he is "buried with Him in baptism. You are a new man- RAISED IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. Be renewed in the spirit of your mind and trust the blood of Jesus to work in you a glorious(tho perhaps sometimes grueling ;o) transformation.

Then you will say, "This is what the Lord did for me" and one day another like you will be set free by your testimony- I kno this because I was you for years, until I saw that Jesus had truly set nme free from that old man and he had no more power over me. Even when I fail, and it seems he won, he loses because

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The devil cant win, the old man is dead, and you, my dear saint- cannot lose, simply trust His love and wait on His deliverance. It is coming.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2013, 07:00:52 AM
To Chris:

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of the war between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. He says, "WHo shall free me from the body of this death! Thank God for Jesus! Therefore(because of Christs sacrifice) there is now no more condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk in the spirit, and not according to the flesh."

You see, when you believed, every sin was wiped away. Those Pharisees never believed. What you are experiencing is the railing of the judged carnal managainst the resurrection of Christ within you. Its OK. You are not to be condemned. You must simply see the serpent nailed to the stick in the wilderness(I was crucified in Christ)

In "doing away with the body of the sins of the flesh" we are set free from the body of this death- BY FORGIVENESS. It is the very condemnation you are feeling that empowers the carnal mind, the "strong man", the Pharoah within who would drag you back into bondage.

When you see the two as separate, one- judged already in the crucifixion of Christ.....the other-raised in new life through the resurrection of Jesus within your spirit(come out of the tomb of Adam, raised and ascended to the right hand as a son- YOU WILL DECLARE TO THAT VOICE< GET BEHIND ME SATAN(accuser/adversary) I love my deliverer.

You wil then begin to experience more and more freedom from the carnal man.

The carnal "old" man is disarmed at the cross, "For He disarmed the principalities and powers making an open show of them".

He did this by taking away the laws contained in statutes and putting you into a new law- LOVE AND THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS- which is only in you by the HOLY SPIRIt who is Christ and God who you love.

If you did not love them you would not be so mortified by the thought that you may hav committed an unforgiveable sin.

You havent. You are merely being tricked by the adversary, beaten by the taskmaster, and accused by the accuser. God has shut his mout by the blood of His Son, MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY ACCUSATION WIELDED AGAINST YOU.

Rejoice when you hear that voice, the adversary is angry because HIS TIME IS GROWING SHORTER AND SHORTER AS THE LIGHT Of CHRIST ARISES IN YOU FROM THE DAWN UNTO THE FULL NOON

He is seeking to beseige the saints and wear them out, remember, he boasts against the most high and speaks blashphemies(THAT IS NOT YOU- IT IS THE BITTER ECHOES OF THE DEAD MAN) but their deliverer will come out of Zion like the wind and blow the cobwebs of that old liar away.

the old man is crucified with Christ. he is "buried with Him in baptism. You are a new man- RAISED IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. Be renewed in the spirit of your mind and trust the blood of Jesus to work in you a glorious(tho perhaps sometimes grueling ;o) transformation.

Then you will say, "This is what the Lord did for me" and one day another like you will be set free by your testimony- I kno this because I was you for years, until I saw that Jesus had truly set nme free from that old man and he had no more power over me. Even when I fail, and it seems he won, he loses because

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The devil cant win, the old man is dead, and you, my dear saint- cannot lose, simply trust His love and wait on His deliverance. It is coming.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil015.html

Loved your post EW,may he be comforted in it....Nothing canseperate you fromthe love

of God that isfound in Jesus Christ,brother.   As a matter of fact,God haas revealed unto you

  my brother, the man of lawlessness...which was prophesied to be revealed beforethe

returnofJesus Christ....and His doingaway with him with the breath ofHiscoming.....

  he...is not you....your owntestimony....'I donothate the Holy spirit,I was requesting it

come intome, Ilove God"show theman of sin/lawlessness...isnot you.


   this isthe enmity of the serpents seed..and Christ's being revealed to you,my brother,Chris

    the same diabolicalthing was attempted against me..many years ago.  When very young

   andvulnerble in faith[dragonset todevour the manchild] same as Herod slaughtering babes

  in Bethlehem when Christchildborn[Heis our pattern]  But thatholything,seed of faith in you

shall be " caught up"tothe throne.child.

   God Bless youandkeep you.

         

Quote from: 97531 on February 27, 2008, 07:33:54 AM
Query from Chris

Hi, please I really need your help. I think I have committed the unforgivable sin. I was on bed reading the word of God and came by the scripture which talks about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Instantly I thought a disgusting thought in my head. Curse words came into my head and I don't know how but I cursed the Holy Spirit. Sometime it comes back into my head and I hate it.

I don't know why this happened, but after reading on the internet I saw that it had happened to other people. I don't hate the Holy Spirit, I love God and I was even praying that the Holy Spirit would come into me and help me to serve God better. I was really hungry for God and growing spiritually each day. Now I am absolutely terrified that I am going to Hell, it is so frightening.

It has ruined me and I have stopped going to church. No matter how much I read about it on sites like these and people tell me that I haven't committed this sin I still think I am lost forever. It seems nothing can comfort me because I am just so unsure. How can I know, or anyone else know for sure? Doesn't it say that if you committ this sin that you while not be forgiven in this age, or the age to come and that all blasphemy shall be forgiven, but blasphemy against the holy spirit will not? I want forgiveness so badly, but it feels so far away from me, I feel like I am beyond forgiveness.
Please please help me, thanks, Chris.

Blaspheming the holy spirit is saying that goodness is not goodness. When the Pharisees said 'you do these things by the devil', that was blaspheming the holy spirit. Saying that a good act, a kind-word, is an act of sedition with the devil or that it is not good.

Goodness is goodness, and those who say that patience, forebearance, love, kindness and compassion are evil things commit the unpardonable sin.

Yet though it is unpardonable, it is not a mind-set which is 'unchangeable'. It just cannot be let go. It must be corrected.

Nothing to do with hell. Only to do with change.

In other words, it is not forgiveable in the sense that it cannot be released without repentance?  Just seeing if i read you right.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2013, 07:00:52 AM
To Chris:

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of the war between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. He says, "WHo shall free me from the body of this death! Thank God for Jesus! Therefore(because of Christs sacrifice) there is now no more condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk in the spirit, and not according to the flesh."

You see, when you believed, every sin was wiped away. Those Pharisees never believed. What you are experiencing is the railing of the judged carnal managainst the resurrection of Christ within you. Its OK. You are not to be condemned. You must simply see the serpent nailed to the stick in the wilderness(I was crucified in Christ)

In "doing away with the body of the sins of the flesh" we are set free from the body of this death- BY FORGIVENESS. It is the very condemnation you are feeling that empowers the carnal mind, the "strong man", the Pharoah within who would drag you back into bondage.

When you see the two as separate, one- judged already in the crucifixion of Christ.....the other-raised in new life through the resurrection of Jesus within your spirit(come out of the tomb of Adam, raised and ascended to the right hand as a son- YOU WILL DECLARE TO THAT VOICE< GET BEHIND ME SATAN(accuser/adversary) I love my deliverer.

You wil then begin to experience more and more freedom from the carnal man.

The carnal "old" man is disarmed at the cross, "For He disarmed the principalities and powers making an open show of them".

He did this by taking away the laws contained in statutes and putting you into a new law- LOVE AND THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS- which is only in you by the HOLY SPIRIt who is Christ and God who you love.

If you did not love them you would not be so mortified by the thought that you may hav committed an unforgiveable sin.

You havent. You are merely being tricked by the adversary, beaten by the taskmaster, and accused by the accuser. God has shut his mout by the blood of His Son, MORE POWERFUL THAN ANY ACCUSATION WIELDED AGAINST YOU.

Rejoice when you hear that voice, the adversary is angry because HIS TIME IS GROWING SHORTER AND SHORTER AS THE LIGHT Of CHRIST ARISES IN YOU FROM THE DAWN UNTO THE FULL NOON

He is seeking to beseige the saints and wear them out, remember, he boasts against the most high and speaks blashphemies(THAT IS NOT YOU- IT IS THE BITTER ECHOES OF THE DEAD MAN) but their deliverer will come out of Zion like the wind and blow the cobwebs of that old liar away.

the old man is crucified with Christ. he is "buried with Him in baptism. You are a new man- RAISED IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST. Be renewed in the spirit of your mind and trust the blood of Jesus to work in you a glorious(tho perhaps sometimes grueling ;o) transformation.

Then you will say, "This is what the Lord did for me" and one day another like you will be set free by your testimony- I kno this because I was you for years, until I saw that Jesus had truly set nme free from that old man and he had no more power over me. Even when I fail, and it seems he won, he loses because

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The devil cant win, the old man is dead, and you, my dear saint- cannot lose, simply trust His love and wait on His deliverance. It is coming.

I wept as I read that.  I probably needed to read that as much as Chris today.  Thank you for being used by the Holy Spirit to encourage believers.

Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2014, 11:27:10 PM
In other words, it is not forgiveable in the sense that it cannot be released without repentance?  Just seeing if i read you right.

I don't like the word 'repentance'. 'Change of mind' is a better term, but yes. Inherently, if a person is wicked enough to say that 'good things' are 'bad things', then they're gonna need a big change of mind.

Hi Chris.  I see that your post was written in 2008.  I truly hope you have found peace and are able to believe you are absolutely not going to be lost or in hell forever. 
The "unpardonable" sin is really very very good new for us all when we are aware of what it really means.  If we have committed something that is not of the Spirit of GOD KNOWINGLY and have done so on purpose, that DEED and it's spiritual motive is not going to be forgiven at SOME TIME in our existence.  It clearly says in Hebrews 6 that it is ONLY after we have tasted the GOOD word of God and of the world to come that we can even commit this kind of deed.   The good work of God is really the hidden manna spoken of in scripture, or... saying it another way, to believe that God does good only and never does evil.  It you believe that, then you can believe that God does not do evil to those who knowingly commit evil.  But... our own ways, the disobedient ways, may be allowed to come upon ourselves because of doing evil to others while knowing it is wrong.   The passage you are reading in Hebrews 6 is really active and effective when we UNDERSTAND the truth of God and Jesus Christ PROPERLY.  That is when we have actually tasted or experienced the GOOD WORD "of or from" God ourselves.

When this deed "against the Holy Spirit" is done, it is when WE lie against the Holy Spirit in us willingly.  For instance, if I were to teach something that I know is incorrect about God but I do it for my own gain or "glory" etc, then it is me DOING THAT which is what will not be forgiven.  To lie or do things that are a lie about God {the Holy Spirit} on purpose with intent to do it that is no longer going to be forgiven.  When something is forgiven, it does not mean that what was forgiven will not be done again.  But when God determines in HIs day that we are not going to be allowed to do evil or be overpowered by the evil of the law of sin in us any longer, WE will be saved from the power of evil over us, which eventually establishes maturity in Jesus Christ IN US.

You were not willing to have those thoughts you had and neither were you in agreement with them.   And, they are simply thoughts of the natural natured mind, the worldly nature we all are born into and with "at the first".  Scripture tells us that that which is first is NATURAL and is not spiritual.  This is crucial.  We need to understand that we are all born immature at first.  The first IS natural, not became natural, or worldly.

When one does something Unchristian by reflex action or without meaning to do so or was just taken and did it like Paul mentions in Romans 7, that is not doing it in "knowing" and AGREEING with the disobedient motive and action.  It is NOT disobedient to be TEMPTED.  But when we are tempted and we know it is something we are not supposed to do IF we are to obey Jesus, then we are to RESIST DOING IT. That is what resisting temptation is.  Scripture tells us that there is nothing that has taken us but that which is COMMON TO ALL MANKIND.  Ie.. it is a natural attribute from our own body and mind. 

But if we do not yet know it is wrong to do such things, we are still in the situation where we DO NOT KNOW YET WHAT WE ARE DOING, at least in that particular area.  As Jesus said, those who do not know what they are doing are to be forgiven BECAUSE they\we do not know what we are doing yet.

For us to walk with God knowingly and willingly in agreement with God we MUST know the difference between good and evil according to how Jesus Christ knows it.  Then, if we have knowledge of these things and "purposely" disobey what we know Jesus desires of us, we are to be CORRECTED.  To be corrected means to be made or conform to what is correct.  It does not mean to be afflicted from God.  What it means is that the deed will NO LONGER BE ALLOWED TO REMAIN as our deeds.  We will be being matured to participate in God's righteousness as His son.

In history the church did many, many, evil things at times. Even in the day of the apostles the apostles were always telling the people that were Christians to not do this, and not do that, and to do this or do that.  This means that the HOLY SPIRIT was not teaching the church what was right in God's eyes,  The apostles as men were "trying" to teach the church members what was right, but the church members were NOT being corrected by God FROM WITHIN THEM.

So, to be corrected by God means the Holy Spirit has to be actively raisins us up into the Spirit of God by becoming righteous and "saved" in truth.

What that scripture, Hebrews 6:6, is talking about, is the time when God will actually begin to actively CORRECT US into His righteousness.  We are to seek HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS {to be our righteousness} FIRST and the Dominion of God IN US FIRST OF ALL BEFORE DOING ANYTHING ELSE.  This includes not being an evangelist when we do not really know what the mind of Christ really is yet.  Judgment MUST BEGIN at the HOUSE "OF" GOD scripture says, which is US.

Mat_6:33  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What the scripture you read in regard to not being forgiven any more is not that YOU are not going to be forgiven, it means the DEED that is evil and has power over you at that time is NOT GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO REMAIN over you ANY LONGER.  This is a good thing, even if hurtful for a time, because it means our salvation through the actual righteousness of God being established in us.  Then the dominion of God will fully be in us as who we are, like it was\is in Jesus Christ in Israel.  It IS good news.  This day is the day or time that God is beginning now to accomplish His will that was before the foundation of the creation. God's righteousness being established in all people will fulfill and manifest all the promises of good and peace on earth through the Spirit of God being poured out upon all flesh.

Luk_24:49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Isa 32:13  Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:
Isa 32:14  Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks;
Isa 32:15  **Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high,**      and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Isa 32:16  Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.
Isa 32:17  And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Isa 32:18  And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;

Isa_11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa_65:25  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This is the condition that will be present here on this planet when the Spirit of the LORD is Lord in the creation.  It is this very same planet, not a different one.
But first, and now, we must be given "eyes", the eyes of our understanding properly what God desires of us and how, so we can be two that walk together with God in agreement for what God is doing.

God bless, ken

Not to worry.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit is still working with you.   :thumbsup:

I walked away from the Christian religion as well.  I purposely became apostate and believed that the Spirit of God worked in all religions and I had some trouble with some of the doctrines of Christianity.  This was after a 20+ year walk in the Christian faith.  I was apostate for a couple of years.  In the end I came back to the King of heaven, because I was dragged back.

If you are lostnbroken, I believe you have come to the right place.

:dsunny:

ED is   Right  , the Holy Spirit is still  working   in you my friend ,
  If your feeling conviction , its the Lord dealing with your heart
  take comfort in     the Lord Jesus   Christ
   it says in His Word nothing can separate you from His Love    Please read Romans 8     its wonderful  when in doubt 

http://biblehub.com/gwt/romans/8.htm (http://biblehub.com/gwt/romans/8.htm)

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 01:58:45 AM
..how can he ever forgive me now? an did said those things to him??? i am an enemy of him an never wanted to be one

Won't be able to reply until tomorrow.  Just know that you are loved.  You are forgiven.  You are not an enemy.

I'll post on the morning.

:dsunny:

The "unforgivable sin" is not, for it will be forgiven, in the age.

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 01:58:45 AM
how can he ever forgive me now?

Ask Him.  "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".  I John 1:9

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
but if someone is truly an apostate but recognizes they have sinned so badly and still desires to be right with god[unlike ex-christians who say they are now atheists an reject god an dare openly hostile to him] can he still forgive us???? i am sure his spirit is not with me anymore....i have tried for over a year to repent in my heart and to return to him but i only find myself feeling further away and hated by him...jesu said those who sin are of the devil and not of god.....i never wanted to become his enemy or to trample what he did on the cross under my feet....this is why i for so long kept trying to be a light for him despite my messed up state and sins....why does jesus say we will perish-that seems permanent to me...or that blasphemy of the hs can "never" be forgiven....i feel utterly hopeless and i have never thought of him or the spirit being evil...all i want is to be with him na be made right...again...it seems he has rejected me no matter how sorry i feel and how badly i wish to return to him

hello dear, it's not how we feel, but it's what the Word says.. all this questioning, by the world, of God's Word, I see as laying heavy upon the hearts of those who love Him.. but it ought not to be.. His Word is perfect, and we can trust each and every one of His promises (when those who love Him gets defensive over His word, i think it's bound to erode one's faith in His promises..

If His word says believing declares us righteous (galatians) then that's the absolute truth

I also think over these 2OOO years, the focus has come to be upon our doing and not doing, whereas I think really we have only ONE rule/law. To love Him.

All the other stuff, are distractions, to my way of thinking.. we can change nothing, cannot be transformed by the outward observation and, or doing.. or not doing.

If we will draw near to God (in faith) whether we feel Him or not, it says "draw nigh to Him and He will draw nigh" to us.. we can only, imo, be benefited by this if we believe it, regardless of how we might feel. And it's this nearness / His Spirit which is the POWER to transform...

Satan works as an angel of light, not always of apparent darkness.. "whatsoever things are good.. and are of good report.. think on these things". This suggests to me, not to listen to bad reports, even when they proceed out of my own mind.. no bad report true..

The unable to be forgiven sin I believe is the habitual hardening of the heart, to the point of hatred, which becomes so hard His Spirit is hard pressed to penetrate..

Mark 3:29 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment; ( from - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+3%3A29&version=YLT )

As for other spiritualities (you mentioned native american) if there were no thread of truth to them whatsoever, they would totally unravel and fade away.. imo! And also, concerning this and any other sins which may indeed be grievous, feeling remorse is good.. but remember His word says if we repent "He is faithful to forgive." And His Spirit can fix anything, anything at all! I believe all terminated babes will be gloriously resurrected along with all others..

We also from time to time, I think, need to repent of not trusting Him, of not believing Him.. and relying instead on how we feel.. believing our feelings (what we say) instead of His words..

God bless you! I daresay we have all been exactly where and what you've related! But every day, we can choose darkness or we can choose light.. and "be renewed in the spirit of our mind".. replacing old negatives with new positives backed up by His word.. soon enough, the feelings will follow.. our feelings can only follow our thoughts.. I think we can choose to not believe any negative report... (being able to choose, tho limited, I think, is a part of being able to think, is part of the same package)
God bless you! :HeartThrob:

  Those are wonderful  thoughts     ed and Marie  to lostnbroken


  Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The sacrifices of God are a humble spirit; God does not reject a broken heart.

  Sounds like you are there and God will make you  new    a new creature in Christ 
off with the old and in with the new     , it is the Lord whom makes all things new     

 

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
but if someone is truly an apostate but recognizes they have sinned so badly and still desires to be right with god..can he still forgive us???? i am sure his spirit is not with me anymore....

Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2014, 04:04:54 PM

hello dear, it's not how we feel, but it's what the Word says..

If His word says believing declares us righteous (galatians) then that's the absolute truth

I will never leave you or forsake you - Jesus

If I make my bed in sheol you are there - the Holy Spirit through David

There is nothing that can separate us from His love - the Holy Spirit through Paul


Satan says "look at your sin".  God says "look at my Son".  - toby mac

Quote from: jabcat on September 18, 2014, 05:36:57 PM

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
but if someone is truly an apostate but recognizes they have sinned so badly and still desires to be right with god..can he still forgive us???? i am sure his spirit is not with me anymore....

Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2014, 04:04:54 PM

hello dear, it's not how we feel, but it's what the Word says..

If His word says believing declares us righteous (galatians) then that's the absolute truth

I will never leave you or forsake you - Jesus

If I make my bed in sheol you are there - the Holy Spirit through David

There is nothing that can separate us from His love - the Holy Spirit through Paul


Satan says "look at your sin".  God says "look at my Son".  - toby mac

:thumbsup:

  Its  encouraging just to read these    posts !!      Yay !!   God  bless   you   Broken       :giveheart:

Quote from: jabcat on September 18, 2014, 05:36:57 PM

Satan says "look at your sin".  God says "look at my Son".  - toby mac

Love that quote.  I had to look up Toby Mac and enjoyed going back in history to the days of DC Talk and "More Power To You".  I was really into Christian rock when I was an adolescent believer.  My favorite band was The Resurection Band..........Military man.  I saw them in concert in the 80's.  I took a freind of mine who had no religion at all that I knew of..........he was really impressed with that fact that every song was good rock.

Anyways, thinking of lost and broken, reminded me of this verse.

Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book,

Luke 10
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

What is lost and broken will be healed, found and saved.

:dsunny:

 :thumbsup:

yeah good quote (and scrip)...a friend had posted that on facebook and i thought it was pretty awesome...toby mac's actually pretty good

(my fave was Larry Norman :)

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
but if someone is truly an apostate but recognizes they have sinned so badly and still desires to be right with god[unlike ex-christians who say they are now atheists an reject god an dare openly hostile to him] can he still forgive us????

Yes.  Yes He can, will, and does.  All the condemnation is from religion and not from Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

The Apostle Paul committed Christians to death.  That was his goal.  He did it in ignorance and unbelief, just as you and your sin was done in ignorance and unbelief.

The guilt will be lifted, because Jesus Christ is able to heal us.

Romans 5
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The call to those who are enemies is never taken away. Christ died for all of us, and we where all enemies in one way or another.  It is your desire to no longer be an enemy.  That desire is given to you from God.  It is God's call to you, and you are in a battle to conform to the Christ that you know to be true.  Your desire is pure, because it is from God.
Philippians 2:12
.......................work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God is working in you.  God is working in your heart both to will and to do of His good pleasure.  You can do it through Christ who will strengthen you.

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 18, 2014, 02:44:43 PM
i am sure his spirit is not with me anymore....i have tried for over a year to repent in my heart and to return to him but i only find myself feeling further away and hated by him...jesu said those who sin are of the devil and not of god.....i never wanted to become his enemy or to trample what he did on the cross under my feet....this is why i for so long kept trying to be a light for him despite my messed up state and sins....why does jesus say we will perish-that seems permanent to me...or that blasphemy of the hs can "never" be forgiven....i feel utterly hopeless and i have never thought of him or the spirit being evil...all i want is to be with him na be made right...again...it seems he has rejected me no matter how sorry i feel and how badly i wish to return to him

You've got a lot of things going through your head.  They are things that are in the Bible, BUT they must be considered in context. 

Jesus does not reject any who come to Him in sincerity.  I'm seeing sincerity in you, but you have to overcome the condemnation.  Don't stop working it through. 

Romans 5
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

It is Jesus Christ who justifies us and brings us peace.  He makes  the peace.  You have access to the peace because Jesus Christ made the way.  It is not about your ability, it is about your simple faith.  You are a believer.  By faith you will find the grace of God again.

You are going through a tribulation experience for the purpose bringing you to the place of humility.  In humility we ask.  When we ask we receive, and learn to be patient in our faith.

The reason for all of this is so you will be able to Love God more.

Luke 7
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 20, 2014, 08:07:49 AM
i appreciate all that you and the others have been trying to help me with in this nightmare....i just read another thread here about hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31...even if am forgiven fo rhwat i thought was blapshmey of the hs, then what about being in an apostate/reprobate condition? i know his spirit is not with me and so how can his grace an dlove and mercy still apply to me?  i am unable to repent unless god works it into my heart an di right now feel very "stuck" which is why i chose my "name"...i know i feel sorry for all i have done...i know i want to be changed and to be restored, but according to those verses its impossible....if the cu[being purged and reconciled] is wrong i can only look forward to the wrath and hatred of god who will throw me into a lake of fire which is torment forever...i never wanted to think of god as being this way, but after these scriptures suggest and then many ot stories about how he seemed to be angry all the time and seeking to destroy his enemies[even though we are supposed to love our enemies-confused in this]...he is very capable of of being unmericiful to those whom he hates and has turned against....why did paul write about those whom he "fashioned" to be evil/wicked to be set apart for the day of destruction and that those who are not his elect were predestined for this? it seems everything-god and the scriptures- are against me...  the more i try to find hope in scriptures, the more convinced i am i have no hope because of them-they are his word and he means what he says...

Hi LB, I read your post and see you are in a lot of torment...I pray to the Lord, that he would send you peace... Do you have anyone around you? Is there someone you can ask to help you with this and pray with you or that you can just spend some time with?

I'm a little hesitant to answer you regarding the verses in Hebrew. They really have nothing to do with you in your current situation - even though you are convinced they do (psst: don't trust anything your head says. The human mind is often like a runaway train :)). Also, I think that your present state might make it very difficult to filter a lot of bible analysis, especially in a way that comforts you. Maybe shutting the bible for a while might be a good idea....and asking God just to give you some peace and guidance, rather than pouring over scriptures continually, particularly the ones that are challenging (even to the guys with 'theologian' printed on their business card :) ) 

Having said that, if you find yourself compulsively going back to Hebrews, please keep this in mind, when reading the verse:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance...."

The word impossible means unable or powerless - in the way that a person can be powerless and unable to bring something about. It does not mean impossible in the way that it can't happen. In this verse, it means that man does not have the power or ability to bring himself back to repentance and salvation...

In this case, we are all powerless/unable to effect salvation. Whether we have already tasted it or whether we are not yet in it..     

The exact same word is used here in Matt 19:25, when the disciples asked Jesus who can be saved..

"When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

We are all dependent upon God to work his salvation in us. We're all in the same boat (And it's not the titanic..)

Everything is ok..

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"The blasphemy of the Spirit consists in attributing the works of Christ, done by the power of God's Spirit, to demons or unclean spirits. As these works were the means used to produce repentance and pardon, and this was essential for entrance into the kingdom, it is readily seen that pardon is quite impossible in such a case. The time, however, is limited to this eon or the coming eon of the kingdom. Eventually, all mankind will be far more than pardoned. They will be justified (Ro.5:18) and reconciled (Col.1:20). But this will not take place until a full eon later, when the kingdom is given over to the Father (1Co.15:24). We cannot commit the sin against the holy Spirit because our salvation is not based on miracles and signs. It follows faith, not sight. And we are not pardoned, but justified (Ro.3:24,26). Condemnation is impossible (Ro.8:1). Moreover, we are explicitly told that, in the latter eras, some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teaching of demons. Any spirit manifestation in perfect accord with the scriptures should be given the most severe tests, lest we be among those who are deceived by them." (Concordant Commentary-Matthew 12:31 pg.27)

"It is significant that scribes from Jerusalem commit the "unpardonable sin", or, as it is also called, the eonian sin. This consists in ascribing the casting out of unclean spirits to their head, the chief of the demons. In the evangel of the kingdom there is not the appeal to pure, unsupported faith which characterizes the evangel of God or the conciliation, which is the evangel for today. A foretaste is given of the powers of the coming eon, by means of signs, which prove the ability of Christ to cope with the powers of darkness and disease, which must be overthrown before the kingdom can come. But if these are ascribed to the unclean spirits themselves, there is no possibility of repentance and pardon because of its very nature. The sin is eonian. It cannot be corrected for the eons. Such as committed it will have no place in the millennial reign or the subsequent kingdom of the Son in the new earth during the last eon. Their salvation waits until the eons are past. The "unpardonable sin" is not one of such enormity as to be beyond the ability of grace. In this economy grace has no limits. Where sin increases, grace superexceeds (Ro. 5:21). Grace reigns, and no sin is sufficiently heinous to dethrone it. Its character is what determines the "unpardonable", eonian sin." (Concordant Commentary-Mark 3:22 pg.62)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil015.html

Don't let Satan con you into thinking you're not saved.

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

"if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved" (Romans 10:9)

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Quotei feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

I believe  what everyone here is trying to say  ever so gently     without being harsh   Lostnbroken

  is  please do not let your  feelings  dictate     your heart  , though you feel  these    things of  judgment and   forsaken of God ever so strongly   

Can you really trust yourself   and  about how God feels about you ? 

In all honesty I do believe you have it turned around
You must trust in God     to how he  feels about you ,    He is no respecter of persons   
If you have children  you know exactly what I am saying   , can you love one without the other  or do you do   everything for one and   let the other fend for  itself ?

His children are of two natures  disobedient and obedient       , yes that simple
  are they always  obedient or disobedient   , I would  have to say  by  our own nature    in the natural or even spiritual one  , we do     find ourselves    doing    both  ways  at one time or the other 

But  as a parent  you never stop loving them     
  please    consider this much .


  I am   very simple   and struggle   just like everyone else     

and Hope  in  Jesus  you find some peace      to get though this time , its just a trial of faith   and you  can overcome though Christ 

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 20, 2014, 05:25:36 PM
i feel ill...i found this on another thread[i am truly lost and there is no hoe for me]:

Originally Posted by The Church Fathers

Hi lostnbroken,

Could you give the link so I can look at the whole argument?

________edit__________

Found it.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/there's-an-article-that-states-that-early-chruch-fathers-were-not-universalists!/

:dsunny:

I would like to remind you..lostandbroken...that Paul spoke of certain men that would rise up in the church after he was gone..

  that would NOT treat the flock with tenderness..you have  examples in the writings you posted,imo.

  Acts 20;29 I know that after I leave savage wolves will come  in among you and not spare the flock. Even from your own

  number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember

  that for 3 years I never stopped warning you night and day with tears....now I commit youto GOD AND THE WORD OF HIS GRACE

  WHICH CAN BUILD YOU UP...............see.....who tears you down? if not the false shepherds/wolves....but Jesus said feed

my sheep...build up..in the grace of God..........Jesus had the spirit without measure...that is GRACE WITHOUT MEASURE

"Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary, for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials. Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand. Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace; with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one. And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

Lostnbroken I think many, if not all of us, have been in the state you are in. I know I have. It's an awful place to be but rest assured you WILL be rescued from the pit you are in (I'm talking about your present mental state) and you will be ever so grateful to God for the glorious truth of His Love and all encompassing salvation.

The verses I always kept in mind when I was struggling with these things were:

"The Lord is willing that NONE should perish"
"God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but to SAVE the world"
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord. So turn and live!"
"He (God) disciplines us for our good, that we may share in His holiness"
"Though He brings grief, He will show compassion, so great is His unfailing love. FOR HE DOES NOT WILLINGLY BRING GRIEF OR AFFLICTION TO ANYONE."

His heart is very tender toward us and He NEVER delights in the death ot torment of anyone. Keeping these things in mind is a good place to start.

Blessings.  :HeartThrob:

When you say "those men of god," you're referring to guys who propagate the doctrine of Rome which is not the truth found in scripture accurately translated. You need to stop believing them, and start believing the word of God. Paul was the worst of sinners who persecuted and executed believers before he saw the light. He knew, despite his past sins, that he was saved by the grace of God. The same is true for all of us believers. We all have sin that we're sorry about, but we shouldn't be obsessed with guilt about it because we have been justified by Christ's sacrifice for us. If you believe God doesn't love you, you're believing a lie straight from Satan. Satan's method of operation is deception. He doesn't confront you head on. It's much more effective for him to deceive you, and the easiest way for him to do that is to come at you from where you least expect it like maybe a misinterpretation of scripture backed up by those who you may think have the truth. He does that by mixing a little truth with a lie to fool you into thinking it's the truth. Don't let yourself be conned into thinking God's grace is powerless to overcome your sin. None of us is worthy of God's grace, but he loves us so much that he gave his only-begotten son to die for us so we could be free from sin and even death. Don't believe Satan's lie that you don't deserve God's love. Don't believe Satan's lie that you can't be justified and reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. Believe what God says in his written word. Don't trust your perception. Just believe. That's what it means to have faith, even when it's so dark you can't see the light. Just believe! Eventually you will see the light. 

Lostnbroken it is your sin and the consequences thereof that He has to save you from. Not some literal fiery pit of torment. The consequences of our sin IS the torment, is it not?  :2c:

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 20, 2014, 08:11:55 PM
i have done my best to keep focused on such scriptures but then other ones which talk about how god chooses those he wants and then sets part others for destruction...there are many..he hardens the hearts of those he has set apart and rejected and like saul he pulls his spirit away and sends the tormentors to make you nuts...i have prayed, asked for mercy , cried many tears, and have kept going because i am not just worried for me but my loved ones-family and friends who are lost...i have longed fo rhim to come back into my heart and help me an dbut nothing happens, even when i have waited patiently and anxiously by faith that he would and its been so long now...without his spirit to help me discern the scriptures right  or to even have one of the fruits of the spirit-i have none right now, then something is wrong...for 20 years i have been going through this but only until last year did i wake up and realize why..i had been self-deceived for so long thinking all was well despite my gross sins that i kept doing..then i read what those men of god say and jesus said of the severe punishment for those who fall away will face and what kind of torment or punishment awaits and that nothing, no tears or pleas for mercy will mean anything..i had a chance an blew it...i will keep clinging on because i have nothing else, but i cannot break free from with without him to help me....

lostnbroken, when I was you I was lost ant pathetic..........broken, and did not understand how to overcome my issues.

A trick I learned to overcome my crazed brain was scripture memorization.  I wrote the ones I wanted to memorize down and whenever my mind started to wonder I said the scriptures to my self.  I did this for years.  I had about 50 scriptures that ministered to me.  When I got up in the morning I did a few......I had them ordered on a 3x5 cared that I kept in my pocket.  All through the day I would go through the list.

The spirit started to bring those scriptures alive to me.   I could see deeper and deeper the the things of God and learned how much I was loved.

Change your thinking change your life.
Romans 12
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The above was one of them.

The battle is in the mind.  The more you renew your mind, the more you will see the transformation.

As Tom was saying, we are in a battle.  Satan knows the scriptures too.  That is why you are having problems with a few of them.

The Spirit will guide you as you do this work.  You are doing it for yourself, your loved ones, and everyone you come in contact with.  You are becoming the image of the Son of God.

It is a great adventure and well worth the time.  It is a daily walk, and a daily practice that will pay off in this life and the life to come.

Be Conciliated To God

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/BeConciliatedToGod.html

God's Great Love

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/GodsGreatLove.html

Quote from: lomarah on September 20, 2014, 09:50:29 PM
Lostnbroken it is your sin and the consequences thereof that He has to save you from. Not some literal fiery pit of torment. The consequences of our sin IS the torment, is it not?  :2c:

:thumbsup:

timoria- from hebrews makes it clear that i have no hope at all...i chose to sin instead fo following jesus and this word is clear that there is a punishment without any mercy of god who hates those of us who fall into this category....he really does hate me .....i have tried ot fin dmercy and find none at all...

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)

Quote from: lostnbroken on September 21, 2014, 11:06:25 PM
if you grieve or quench the holy spirit and insult the spirit then you cannot experience him again..i cannot have any fruit of the spirit or repent or anything because he has left me....it i snot  matter of simply believing in him or "receiving" him...it is a fact that he is not with me now and has not been for a long time...i blasphemed him on top of my willfull sinning stint...i have no hope left...i found out backsliding is the first step to wars apostasy...i do not wish to exist anymore  :'(

You are choosing to believe a doctrine.   Then you have several other doctrines stacked on top of that. 

You can choose to serve God no matter what any doctrine says. 

If you are damned, and it is all your fault, and God somehow hates you, you can still love.

When you love you please God.

How can you please God if you are somehow damned?

Can you love?  Do you practice love? 

The fruit of the Spirit is Love............................

If you make the choice to love, you most definitely have the spirit, the ability, the desire to serve God.

Any doctrine that that says otherwise will have to take a back seat, because the proof is in the love.

Love is where Christianity starts and ends.  Just tell any doctrine in your mind that wants to condemn you, that you have chosen to love, not thinking about yourself, and the condemnation will have to wait until you are done..............then don't stop making it about love.  It is a dirty trick to play condemnation.

Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2014, 03:05:44 AM
I can only speak for myself, and you're not bothering me. I know what it's like to feel like you've let the Lord down. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but I left it in my teens to seek the truth elsewhere. I wasn't familiar with scripture. So I investigated various other things before I came to realize that God really does speak to you through the words in that book of scripture. I'm paperless now. So I don't use a book anymore, but I read scripture every morning. I tried some Protestant churches in the past. I haven't gone to church for a long time though, and I don't plan to. Sometimes I look online to see if I can find some like minded folks locally, but I never have. The only thing I found that would come close my doctrinal belief is a Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship that's in another town, but I never checked it out mostly because I think the best way to fellowship in the real world these days is in the home with friends. My fellowship with other believers is mostly online now. That's why I visit this forum. The most important thing is to study the word of God though and understand the context of what you're reading because, if you get things mixed together that aren't supposed to be, you're going to get confused. That's why I told you to try reading Paul's epistles to learn about the grace of God. You're "afraid and very depressed" because you think you've been condemned for blaspheming the spirit. There was a time when I was worried about the same thing, but I know better now. You may have had doubts and even gotten angry at God probably about something that was your own doing, but you're not guilty of what the folks did when they accused the Lord of casting out demons by the chief of demons. Those of us chosen in Christ before the disruption of the world are not immune to doubt or backsliding. I've sure had my share of it and then some. We're in the process of becoming more like Christ, but we're still dealing with our sinful flesh while doing so even though we're in the spirit. So don't be so down on yourself no matter what you did because you belong to the Lord, and Satan can't get you. Satan can deceive you, but learn from your mistakes to try to avoid messing up again. None of us are perfected yet. When Christ walked the earth before he was crucified, he caught a lot of heat because he hung out with the riff-raff of society, but those were the folks that got saved because they knew he was sent from God. No matter how hard you try, you're going to sin once in awhile because you're human. Don't let Satan con you into thinking that God gives up on you because you do. Back when that blasphemy of the spirit was going on while Christ was performing his miracles, he was ministering to the Jews which is who he was specifically sent to deal with. Very rarely did he consent to heal somebody who wasn't Jewish. Those who followed Christ and he himself were still keeping the law that Jews were supposed to live by. It wasn't until after Christ was crucified, was roused from the dead, and appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, that the message of salvation gratuitously in grace through faith began to be preached by Paul as he had come to be known. And he always tried to persuade the Jews first, but most of them rejected his evangel. We of the nations in the body of Christ were never meant to be bound by the Jewish law. The pardon that is mentioned in scripture relating to the blasphemy of the spirit that happened before this era of grace began does not apply to those of us in the body of Christ because we are far more than pardoned. We are justified in Christ, and there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus because we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise for the day of deliverance. That's why I keep telling you to stop believing Satan's lie that you're "lost and broken" regardless of where you're getting your information whether it's the church or scripture out of context. Believe that you were chosen before you were even born for a purpose in the coming eons to be an ambassador of Christ in the celestial realm. That is God's plan, and nothing will ruin that plan. That's why scripture says there is no condemnation in Christ. We have the spirit of God in us to guide us back to the right path when stray. That's why you feel bad about your sin, but you're neglecting to realize that where sin increases, grace superexceeds.

"For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace superexceeds, that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord." (Romans 5:19-21)

QFE
:thumbsup:

Yes, also no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit. Anyone who truly wants and confesses Jesus as Lord is surely doing so by the Holy Spirit!

Psalms 51;17......The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart,O'God you will not despise.

   Psalms 51 was written for you.....Restore to me the joy of your salvation,and grant me a willing spirit

   to sustain me.

   cleanse me wash me. let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed,rejoice. Hide your face

  from my sins and blot out my iniquity. Create in me a pure heart,O'God

   AND RENEW A STEADFAST SPIRIT WITHIN ME..DO NOT CAST ME FROM YOUR PRESENCE.....

    CLEANSE,SAVE,RESTORE..........

 Excellent advice   Tom  :goodpost:     great example is your testimony  as well :thumbsup:

   Amen   Lomarah !! 

I could only   say    one thing here  , take the focus off yourself   and your failures  and    place your focus on Jesus Christ and His   never failing  words !

  Peter was struggling in the  waters  of life and drowning   in them till He looked up   and kept His eyes on Jesus whom walks on  all the waters  and can  calm the seas  with rebuke  , Peter was walking on  water too than   !

For depression fades away     when   you become Christ centered   and not    self centered            that is turning it around to me   [Peter  when you turn  feed my lambs  feed my sheep  ]   
not what can I do for Jesus  or how I have failed     Jesus   , but what Jesus has done for you    way of thinking

     Poor Peter , we are some just like Peter who gets sifted       by Satan    But Jesus knows already   


31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

     This sifting is painful       and hard   process     anyone who judges it will be judged as well and though its   harsh  after all that    sifting

agitate  you within  testing your faith  and what you believe   and obey http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4617&t=KJV (http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4617&t=KJV)

Praying for your safe   and clean and pure heart to be used  perfectly  of God

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 01, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
does the second death and the correction we get include apostates too????? if he truly wants to restore us all doe sit also include those who have fallen so badly?????

  Hello Dear one   ,
  There is a lot on    Tentmaker    site to help and videos   many links     and  Roger Tutts    posts      that help alot


  I just watched   some of them  , I hope if you have access    to them you will too

   the  wages of sin is death ,   death , not burning in  fire forever ,     this is for correction ,  seeing that it hurts , but that all Jesus says hurt , not  tortured   forever
  in the lake of fire     death is thrown into    the lake   of fire  last  ,       being the last enemy to be destroyed   is DEATH

  IN  ADAM  ALL DIE / DEATH AND ITS WAGES OF SIN    BY ONE MAN   , AND IN ONE MAN JESUS CHRIST   ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE

JESUS CHRIST    IN HIS MERCY     IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE,   Jesus Christ is the Lord of the dead and Living      of the heavens and earth and below     

hope this helps and is clear , it is    a beautiful thing to know and trust in   His power and authority   , GOD IS GOOD AND  GLORIOUS !   :HeartThrob:
  BLESS YOU  and be happy    child  of God touched by His  wonderful  grace 

The Lord is good to those whose hope is in Him,to the one who seeks him;

  it is good to wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord. It is good for a man to bear the yoke while he is young

  Let him sit alone in silence,for the Lord has laid it on him. Let him bury his face in the dust-

  there may yet be hope. Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,and let him be filled with disgrace


  FOR MEN ARE NOT CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER. THOUGH HE BRINGS GRIEF HE WILL SHOW

COMPASSION,SO GREAT IS HIS FAILING LOVE. FOR HE DOES NOT WILLINGLY BRING AFFLICTION

OR GRIEF TO THE CHILDREN OF MEN.

   TO CRUSH UNDERFOOT ALL PRISONERS IN THE LAND, TO DENY A MAN HIS RIGHTS BEFORE THE

  MOST HIGH,TO DEPRIVE A MAN OF JUSTICE-WOULD NOT THE LOORD SEE SUCH THINGS?

   WHO CAN SPEAK AND HAVE IT HAPPEN IF THE LORD HAS NOT DECREED IT

IS IT NOT FROM THE MOUTH OF THE MOST HIGH THAT BOTH CALAMITIES AND GOOD THINGS COME

  WHY SHOULD ANY LIVING MAN COMPLAIN WHEN PUNISHED FOR HIS SINS?

  LET US EXAMINE OUR WAYS AND TEST THEM, LET US LIFT UP OUR HEARTS AND HANDS TO GOD

  IN HEAVEN AND SAY 'WE HAVE SINNED AND REBELLED AND YOU HAVE NOT FORGIVEN YOU HAVE COVERED

YOURSELF WITH ANGER AND PURSUED US,YOU HAVE SLAIN WITHOUT PITY

  YOU HAVE COVERED YOURSELF WITH A CLOUD SO THAT NO PRAYER CAN GET THROUGH

  YOU HAVE MADE US SCUM AND REFUSE AMONG THE NATIONS

  ALL OUR ENEMIES HAVE OPENED THEIR MOUTHS WIDE AGAINST US.....................


.......THEY TRIED TO END MY LIFE IN A PIT..AND THREW STONES AT ME....THE WATERS CLOSED

OVER MY HEAD,AND I THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TO BE CUT OFF. I CALLED ON YOUR NAME O'LORD

FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE PIT.  YOU HEARD MY PLEA..DO NOT CLOSE YOUR EARS TO MY CRY

FOR RELIEF.  YOU CAME NEAR WHEN I CALLED YOU,AND YOU SAID 'DO NOT FEAR'

O'LORD YOU TOOK UP MY CASE..YOU REDEEMED MY LIFE

      NOW,NOW...DRY YOUR TEARS....AND WAIT ON THE LORD,CHILD.   :friendstu:

Yes, God loves even "those who have fallen so badly" as you say because God loves all mankind and will save all mankind.

"our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3,4)

"Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:9,10)

That says "especially believers" because we are saved and will be vivified for eonian life in Christ, but unbelievers will be saved at the consummation of the eons when God will be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

This was written by the man who said he was the worst of sinners because he persecuted and killed believers, but he was saved by the grace of God and spread the evangle farther than all the other apostles.

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God. Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I--yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Corinthians 15:9,10)

"Grateful am I to Him Who invigorates me, Christ Jesus, our Lord, for He deems me faithful, assigning me a service, I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief. Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I. But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian." (1 Timothy 1:12-16)

"Now expectation is not mortifying, seeing that the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the holy spirit which is being given to us. For Christ, while we are still infirm, still in accord with the era, for the sake of the irreverent, died. For hardly for the sake of a just man will anyone be dying: for, for the sake of a good man, perhaps someone may even be daring to die, yet God is commending this love of His to us, seeing that, while we are still sinners, Christ died for our sakes. Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him. For if, being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather, being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life." (Romans 5:5-10)

"Near you is the declaration, in your mouth and in your heart--that is, the declaration of faith which we are heralding that, if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Romans 10:8,9)

"For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

God does not give us the experience of evil to break us down but to strengthen our faith in him as our savior. So he subjects us to nothing we can't survive. That's why it's time to really exercise our faith when it seems so dark you can't see the light. Often we don't understand why we are experiencing our trials, but it's always for our own good and the glory of God in the long run. I think we're in a continuous state of correction in this life, being perfected, becoming more like Christ. When we finally understand the purpose of a trial we have experienced and overcome by the power of God, we appreciate it even though it's not pleasant when we're in the midst of it. I think those of us who have been raised in a life of church doctrine and then come to a better understanding of scripture have some common experiences regarding misconceptions that must be overcome to understand the truth. I think we're all students. We all have something to learn. We should try to keep an open mind but focused on the word of God accurately translated so we can be freed from the bondage of church doctrine that is hard to break because we were programmed by it from a young age. It's sad to see most folks in the church blind to the truth and refusing to even consider a different perspective than what they're spoon fed from the pulpit every Sunday. Everybody needs to take responsibility for studying scripture themselves and not just let somebody else interpret it for them, and we need to know how to interpret it in context. I believe we will all simply know truth without even having to be told when we are finally in the light of the Lord. Until then, we will need to guard against our perception being distorted by the powers of darkness. I think it's wise to understand that distorted perception often comes through a misinterpretation of scripture because that seems to be the most effective deception of Satan that is accomplished through church doctrine. I think it's good to remember, when Christ was tried by Satan in the wilderness, he overcame the deception by putting into context scripture that was taken out and thereby distorted.

"Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the Adversary. And, fasting forty days and forty nights, subsequently He hungers. And, approaching, the trier said to Him, "If you are God's Son, say that these stones may be becoming cakes of bread." Yet He, answering, said, "It is written, 'Not on bread alone shall man be living, but on every declaration going out through the mouth of God.'" Then the Adversary is taking Him along into the holy city, and stands Him on the wing of the sanctuary. And he is saying to Him. "If you are God's Son, cast yourself down, for it is written that 'His messengers shall be directed concerning Thee' and 'On their hands shall they be lifting Thee, Lest at some time Thou shouldst be dashing Thy foot against a stone.'" Jesus averred to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not be putting on trial the Lord your God.'" Again the Adversary takes Him along into a very high mountain, and is showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, "All these to you will I be giving, if ever, falling down, you should be worshiping me." Then Jesus is saying to him, "Go away, Satan, for it is written, The Lord your God shall you be worshiping, And to Him only shall you be offering divine service." Then the Adversary is leaving Him. And lo! messengers approached and waited on Him." (Matthew 4:1-11)

Don't ignore the scriptures we share with you about God saving all mankind just because you've read other scripture that you think applies to you. Satan can deceive you through scripture if you're not careful to see the big picture. I think Satan's most effective deception is misinterpretation of scripture through church doctrine to make folks think they are condemned when scripture actually says there is no condemenation to those of us who are believers.

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)

All scripture is inspired by God, but all scripture doesn't apply to everybody otherwise those of us who aren't Jews would be required to live by all 613 commandments in the law. The scripture you are being deceived by does not apply to you, but only to Jews at the time who said Christ was casting out demons by the chief of demons which actually makes no sense if you think about it. That's why Christ told them so. God wants you to be freed by the truth in scripture that you are loved and will be saved from the coming indignation. Even folks who used to worship Satan have come to believe in the saving grace of God through Christ Jesus, and they are saved. Nothing you have done in the past can deprive you from God's love. Just believe God saves you through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who died, was entombed, and was roused from the dead. Be grateful for this truth, and know it's impossible for you not to be forgiven. You are more than forgiven because you're justified.

"Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God), toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26)   

You feel guilty because God has given you a conscience. All of us on this website have experienced the same guilt because we've all sinned, but don't let Satan deceive you into thinking your sin is "unforgivable." I wish I had lived a more righteous life, but I can't change the past. I can mess up the present by worrying about the past though, and that's what you're doing. You need to realize Jesus paid the price for your sins, and you don't need to suffer for them yourself anymore. Just thank God that he's so gracious he loves you even though you have sinned. Don't continue to condemn yourself because God doesn't condemn you. God is conciliated with you through the death of his son and just wants you to be conciliated with him. Eventually that will happen with all God's creatures in the universe. That's why it's called universal reconciliation. Don't be down on yourself. Love God for being your savior and even your father. That's what the purpose of Christ's sacrifice was all about. That's why the accounts of Christ's life in scripture before he was crucified included all that were considered by society to be the worst of sinners who came to be those who loved him the most. The more you know you don't deserve God's grace the more you love him for it. I thank God everyday for saving a wretched soul like me. I know I'm unworthy. I know I don't deserve God's grace, but I believe him when he says I have it. All you can do is just believe God loves you and share that love with others who have gone through the same torment of guilt like you because there are a lot of folks just like you who have been deceived into thinking that God doesn't love them and won't forgive them. That's nothing but a lie from Satan. Believe God is love, and not one lost sheep will be forsaken. God loves you, and wants you to learn to forgive yourself and love yourself. There's no reason to be consumed with guilt any longer. Now is the time to realize that you are saved by the grace of God. 

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 01, 2014, 05:12:43 PM
i fell so badly but not because i hated him...i did not want to be an enemy of god...but i fell into very bad sins and i do not know how to undo them...two especially...i have asked him to forgive me but he has not....i cannot fix them or know how to....i did not want to be his enemy or to trample him underfoot...i love him and did not  live like i did though or i would not have sinned...i cannot stop crying... i wan tot come back to him and have been tring all year but he seems to make it clear i crossed the line...it took me 20 years to finally once and for all confess a certain sin and i still do not know how to undo the damage it caused...i am sure ti was him who told me he held all of those things against em and i was nto forgiven fo them...he was very angry with me...i feel so hopeless

Brother, you remind me of someone:

Luke 18
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I am humbled by your honesty and your heart felt cry for the Lord. Stay close to the Lord. The important thing is to trust him. Let every step be taken in faith that God honors those who cry out to him.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 01, 2014, 03:59:05 PM
does the second death and the correction we get include apostates too????? if he truly wants to restore us all doe sit also include those who have fallen so badly?????

Only a much Loved child of God would ask these questions.

I agree.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 01, 2014, 05:12:43 PM
i fell so badly but not because i hated him...i did not want to be an enemy of god...but i fell into very bad sins and i do not know how to undo them...two especially...i have asked him to forgive me but he has not....i cannot fix them or know how to....i did not want to be his enemy or to trample him underfoot...i love him and did not  live like i did though or i would not have sinned...i cannot stop crying... i wan tot come back to him and have been tring all year but he seems to make it clear i crossed the line...it took me 20 years to finally once and for all confess a certain sin and i still do not know how to undo the damage it caused...i am sure ti was him who told me he held all of those things against em and i was nto forgiven fo them...he was very angry with me...i feel so hopeless

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

God is faithful- even when we are not. Even the most grievous sins are forgiven AND WASHED AWAY when we confess them.

Perhaps it is not the Lord who will not forgive you. I believe He already has, because the scriptures cannot be broken.

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)

If you can "hear" what the word of God is saying to you in 1 John, and begin to thank Him for forgiving you and washing you clean- I believe the condemnation will be broken off of your heart, mind and soul.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe your repentance and desire to have fellowship with God is sincere, and it is some sense of law and the voice of the "accuser of the brethen" that is holding you down. Maybe even, you cannot forgive yourself. Trust the Lord'm He knows our faults, weaknesses, etc. As David was forgiven for adultery and murder- their is nothing you have done for which God will not forgive you. He loves you. He sent His son to set you free from the law of sin and death. Embrace His forgiveness and cleansing :o)

Without it you will not be able to walk in freedom from sin, because our deliverance begins when we accept forgiveness- not because we have stopped sinning.

Sin ceases, and death with it, when we embrace life- which comes by grace through faith beginning with forgiveness, and then we grow in sanctification as we learn to trust His faithfulnes towards us. Any faithfulness we develope towards Him is the product of His forgiving, cleansing and empowering us. Us perfecting ourselves is impossible. Only He can grant us grace and growth in love. All we can do is ask.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Very good to see you again lostnbroken.

I did not even read your post, but I have had you on my mind through the last week.

Stick around and stick it out.

You wanting God in your life is enough to know that you are still on God's mind as well.  That is a guarantee.  If God is for you, there is nothing that can be against you.

Getting it into your mind that God is for you is where we need to go next.

:verygladthatthelostnbrokenarethefoundandhealedinChristJesus:

You really are all that we are here for.

.

Beloved, I am in the process of divorcing my first husband. The two of us disobeyed God by getting married nine years ago. We went thru hell because of it. Now we have two children who have to suffer for our disobedience. I have to try not to live in guilt daily. But I tell you what, God has never left me nor forsaken me. He has been my Rock thru the whole thing and has answered my prayers in astounding ways thru it all. I have a few other friends who are divorced and remarried and God still speaks to them and works thru them in mighty ways. He hates divorce for what it does to us and to our children. He does not hate US because of it!

All of us have lied at times. Look at Peter, denying that he even knew Jesus. Yet look how the Lord used him afterwards in mighty ways. We all have sinned and fallen short. This is how humility is worked out in us. If Jeffrey Dahmer can find forgiveness (and he did), so can the rest of us. Jesus took it ALL.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 03, 2014, 12:34:57 AMi am trying to see god can still  love me but i do not know why he would if he hates these things i have done.

God can and does as God pleases.

Take a look at the story of the Garden of Eden, God put naive mankind into the a situation where they most certainly would sin.  God put the tree and the serpent in that garden.....................................God still loved them.

Every story in the Bible is about sinners who God loves.  I don't even pretend to understand the stories about wrath.  We have not seen the wrath of God.  Today is the day of salvation.  Today you can find the love of God.  God is not in the hate business, God is in the love business.

The fruit of the Spirit is love.....................
If you are making the effort to love, you are doing the will of God.
If you have a desire to love, it is God working in you.

There are some who believe that we can do nothing to make ourselves pleasing to God.  They may be right.  Because God loves us even though we sin.  So when we do things that we know are godly, we heal ourselves.  When we do what we know the Spirit of God would have us to do, our self takes note.  Our spirit catches it......notices it........approves it.     You are agreeing with God that you are good.

Making yourself sick with guilt is only a starting point.  Now it is time to overcome the trappings of the world, and world thinking.  Equip you mind.

My favorite is,

Romans 7
18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

This apostle Paul was down on himself..............But he saw that "THE WILL" was present with him.

The see "THE WILL" present with you as well.

Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jesus Christ our Lord is who shall deliver.  He is able, and not just willing..........He accomplished it as a done deal through his passion on earth.

After Romans 7 comes Romans 8.

The sinner Paul.  The wretched man Paul, flips the page to Romans Chapter 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth . 34 Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died , yea rather , that is risen again , who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Your sin is not bigger then the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When the scales tip, the love of God in Christ Jesus always wins.

.

All your words tell me(and i am only a child of the Father as you) that you need to just LISTEN. i was in a place in my walk very much like yours,(and have fallen there many times since) believing that i was shoved aside[by the Father and His LOVE] because of all the horror and terror that was overwhelming me, that i had committed or said. I was in great fear, a great loneliness. One day I prayed, i prayed hard and said many words, weeping and then i stopped and just sobbed, and in that moment of silence, the words
      I KNOW........sounded. I stopped weeping and just LISTENED turning my head to the left and right and I heard the words again I KNOW. i was brought to the realization that HE KNOWS i am but one of His children who has fallen and needs help to get up. My Friend.........HE KNOWS!and He is ALWAYS there, always with His Hand. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)

"1 Condemnation is utterly out of the question for all in Christ Jesus. This is infinitely more than the atonement or shelter provided for sin by the sacrifices offered under the law. It is far beyond the pardon, or forgiveness, contained in the proclamation of the kingdom. The atonement needed to be renewed year by year, the pardon might be recalled, but the justification we have in Christ Jesus is nothing less than God's righteousness, which is absolutely inviolable. It was not secured by any act of ours and cannot be marred by aught that we can do. Sin only enhances the graciousness of it, but cannot sully or impair it.

2 The spirit's law of life, in Christ Jesus, is the opposite of the law of Sinai. That said: Obey, and live; disobey, and die. The spirit's law imparts life for the eons as God's gracious gift, apart from obedience or disobedience." (Concordant Commentary pg.237-Romans 8:1,2)

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 04, 2014, 02:46:27 AM
that helps in many ways....everything i have read about those verses says i am an apostate even though i never even meant to be...i had not gone back to jesus seeking forgiveness because i wanted to re-crucify him but as my high priest and asked him to lease heal these sins, the damage i had done to others and heal me, restore me again...

then the blasphemy i spoken , is that also forgiven? i told god that the hs as a comfort was a lie[i called him a  liar?!  :( ] i also cussed at him a few times but then realized that was not good and stopped..i have not dared to even try to think such a thing, though i have intrusive thoughts at times that upset me very badly...my flesh keeps betraying my spirit????

lastly, the voice i heard an dflet:
the last thing i heard in an audible voice but it was also inside me was that he held all of my sins against me and there was no forgiveness...i was in a state of shock and panic-it was that traumatic...after this happened...i would sort of hear in my mind[did not know if i imagined it or not so i could not trust this too much] was that he did love me and forgave me...but this was a vague thought? the intense voice that spoke so harshly is what has kept me bound in such fear...it was unmistakable and it was so real....so i have tried so hard to hear form him again and to feel his presence in my heart and soul-the peace i long for , the inner witness which would affirm i am forgiven and can move on,,,i have been going through this since this time last year and i have had two people who say that the hs personally told them to tell me i was forgiven...if he would just speak to me and i would know in my heart, my core i could heal and be ok....

my friends call me el diablo jokingly, and those are the the least that really have known me over the decades; the ones who really know me say that i have heart, and i jokingly say that i am both, a loving devil. Over the many years of my struggles, i have come to feel good and bad about God; every question and accusation there is to throw at Him, i have thrown a Him. I have struggled against God and He has humbled Himself to show me His Love; thus rendering to my knees.  I don't kid when i say all the above, and I don't lie when I say that I still struggle. This life is not over yet, and while there is still a life to live, one will have struggles, and in some of those struggles, things will come into your mind and most definitely into the heart; confusion, accusations, doubts, regrets, uncertainty, and whatnot, they will all come at you from your own self and from the accuser, but don't despair, for it is to your edification that you pass through these and more, and as you grow in understanding, so too you will grow in spiritual strength; you will grow in Christ, and you will rise victorious in Him., So don't be dismayed, for we all must have our own trials and tribulations, and what you're going through in your mind and thoughts are not the unforgivable sin. Trust!

PS: There's a typo in the last line. I'm looking for another vid without it.

I think these are the original lyrics.

Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believed!
Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.
The LORD has promised good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.
Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But GOD, who called me here below,
Will be for ever mine.

God bless you, sister, and good night.

Jer 18:3  Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he was making a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4  And when the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5  Then the word of Jehovah came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6  O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith Jehovah. Behold, as the clay in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel.

Consider the words, and know... you as well as me and all of us are that clay, He mars and He makes it another.

Quote from: jabcat on May 02, 2009, 10:01:24 AM
I believe J. Preston Eby teaches that only those in that age (age of Law, prior to the cross and the "age of grace") were the only ones that even could commit the sin Jesus was talking about.  That the "age to come" is actually now...so all will be reconciled in the future, just as you say.

Above is a  previous quote from James.
There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin or an unpardonable sin We can clearly see that it does not apply to the new Testament Church, the Elect. When Jesus spoke these words concerning unpardonable sin it was aimed at, and ONLY at, the group of the hierarchy in Judea who rejected Him and His power, but should have known better. Attached is Preston Eby's thorough explanation of this idea of a sin that cannot be forgiven. Yes, praise God.



[attachment deleted by admin]

Quote from: joeteekay on October 04, 2014, 05:20:41 AM

Quote from: jabcat on May 02, 2009, 10:01:24 AM
I believe J. Preston Eby teaches that only those in that age (age of Law, prior to the cross and the "age of grace") were the only ones that even could commit the sin Jesus was talking about.  That the "age to come" is actually now...so all will be reconciled in the future, just as you say.

Above is a  previous quote from James.
There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin or an unpardonable sin We can clearly see that it does not apply to the new Testament Church, the Elect. When Jesus spoke these words concerning unpardonable sin it was aimed at, and ONLY at, the group of the hierarchy in Judea who rejected Him and His power, but should have known better. Attached is Preston Eby's thorough explanation of this idea of a sin that cannot be forgiven. Yes, praise God.

Jesus said to Peter, "Whosoever's sins you remit are remitted unto them. Whosoever's sins you retain(do not forgive) are retained. When Jesus is speaking of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not being forgiven in this age or the next, regardless of how you see the ages, it has to be looked at through a fresh perspective- not the old ET paradigm.

He says all manner of blasphemy will be forgiven men. That's a mouthful. You can speak against God, curse His name, use the Lord's name in vain or curse it- and be forgiven.

So what is so special about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Looking at the record we see that Jesus was accused of doing miracles by the power of the devil. They were saying He was in league with the devil. They were standing in the presence of supernatural manifestations of God's presence and power and love and they were calling them demonic manifestations.

If you have ever seen a miracle, even a small one- a healing, a deliverance, it causes anyone who has a heart toward God to glorify Him. I am not talking about TV miracles or worked up pentecostal or charismatic now you see it now you dont miracles either. I  am saying when blind eyes were opened and people lame for decades got up and walked, or lepers were cleansed- Luke 4 was being fulfilled- Isaiah's prophecy of Messiah

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

I don't kno if we can fathom the depths of hardness it would take to see a leprous child cleansed and call it the devil's work.

IMO, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a religious sin. It could only be comitted by someone so hardened in self-righteousness and selfish ambition and the love of dominion that they would reject the most beautiful evidences of "God with us" that could ever be.

IMO when Jesus say that it is "not forgiven" in this age or the next He simply means it is not a sin that can be "remitted"- it must be repented of.


Personally I dont agree with Eby about the ages, I see it as this age and the next- because in this age and the next the gospel will be proclaimed. In the next age men will still blaspheme. The next age will be a 1000 year jubilee because Jesus will rule it with the kingdom of priests and righteousness will flourish- but the wicked will still be plentiful- they just wont be in control like they are now.

But either way you see the ages, the ET perspective never took into consideration what it means to forgive in terms of remitting sins, or as John says in his epistle, "If you see a brother or sister comitting a sin not unto death, pray for them and God will give them life for their sins. There is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. I am not saying that prayer is sufficient to release life for a sin unto death".

Jesus did not say blasphemy of the Holy Ghost was the only sin that would not be remitted in this age or the next- did He?

IMO Jesus was simply identifying blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as a sin unto death- something the Pharisees were all familiar with, because they stoned people for sins unto death- and they tried to kill Jesus for blasphemy against their stone chiseled god/temple idol.

IMO He was letting them know that God would not overlook their blasphemy, but would hold them accountable to it on the level of a sin unto death. Such a sin cannot be remitted without absolute repentance, and even then there may be temporal consequences as well.

Another boogie man ET scripture is the one about Esau and Jacob. It says Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup and could not find repentence though he sought it with bitter tears.

I have heard people teach this means he could not be forgiven. It doesnt mean that at all. It simply means that Esau saw what he had done, he regretted it, he sought to have the sin remitted and the penalty undone.

It was too late. God would not repent. Jacob was the inheritor.

But God loved Esau and blessed him greatly- his loss was irrevocable but his life was spared and his soul was as well- at least thats what I think, because when Jacob returns who falls on him with tears of joy to see him home but his big brother Esau- from whom Jacob stole his inheritance by stealth and deceit!

We have to beware of receiving the definitions of people who grew up in ET systematic theology, it is flawed at every level.

Quote from: joeteekay on October 04, 2014, 05:20:41 AM

Quote from: jabcat on May 02, 2009, 10:01:24 AM
I believe J. Preston Eby teaches that only those in that age (age of Law, prior to the cross and the "age of grace") were the only ones that even could commit the sin Jesus was talking about.  That the "age to come" is actually now...so all will be reconciled in the future, just as you say.

Above is a  previous quote from James.
There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin or an unpardonable sin We can clearly see that it does not apply to the new Testament Church, the Elect. When Jesus spoke these words concerning unpardonable sin it was aimed at, and ONLY at, the group of the hierarchy in Judea who rejected Him and His power, but should have known better. Attached is Preston Eby's thorough explanation of this idea of a sin that cannot be forgiven. Yes, praise God.

Good article joe.  I like your hilights in it. 

No it is not "possible to sin too much for him to forgive them all."

"all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

We are not just forgiven. We are "justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24)

"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 05, 2014, 09:23:23 PM
...i still cannot shake the memory of that voice i heard a year ago saying he "held all of these sins against me and there was no forgiveness" for me... i wish i could sense his spirit with me and to hear form him in my heart ....it has been so long now.....

dear lostnbroken, I do believe that voice would be absolutely not His.. (within myself I KNOW it was not His voice) I'm reminded of Psalms 3..
"Lord, how they have increased who trouble me!
Many are they who rise up against me.
2 Many are they who say of me,
"There is no help for him in God." Selah
3 But You, O Lord, are a shield for me,
My glory and the One who lifts up my head."

And another psalm line "His mercies are new every morning"

The thing is, we stand not in our righteousness (which doesn't exist) but we stand in the righteousness of Jesus.. Sprinkled with His blood.. which is strong enough to cleanse all imperfection.. but we shall not BE perfect until Jesus' return...

Hebrews chapter 4 talks about "obeying the gospel by believing and not doubting"

So far, "as far as the east is from the west" is how far He has cast remembrance of our sins from Him..

Hebrews 4 New King James Version (NKJV)

"The Promise of Rest
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. ...7 "Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." {to find the grace to help us, which is what we need, there is no other means of transformation, we must "obey the gospel"/believe.}

"Be renewed in the spirit of your mind" Ephesians 4:23 "by the washing of the Word" Ephesians 5:26


Colossians 1:23 "..continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.."

John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my Words abide in you..."

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

John 4:8 "God is love"

James 1:17Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - 17 "every good giving, and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the lights, with whom is no variation, or shadow of turning;" ..He is not a shifting shadow.. not like the shadow or shade moves throughout the day, He is unchanging and not like shifting shadow.."

"you are forgiven"
Matthew 9:2
Matthew 9:5
Mark 2:5
Mark 2:9
Luke 5:20 When He saw their faith,
Luke 5:23
Luke 7:47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little."
Luke 7:48
1 John 2:12
[ - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+9%3A2%3B+Matthew+9%3A5%3B+Mark+2%3A5%3B+Mark+2%3A9%3B+Luke+5%3A20%3B+Luke+5%3A23%3B+Luke+7%3A47%3B+Luke+7%3A48%3B+1+John+2%3A12&version=YLT

God bless!  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 05, 2014, 09:23:23 PM
so i did not blaspheme the holy spirit as i have feared for so long-one of the main reasons i think i began to pull away from god

Victory!!!!!!

That is how God works in our lives.  All the thoughts in our head are doctrines that we have accepted to be true.  You are going through a process of changing your thinking.

It will continue to get better as you work the doctrines that are coming into your mind.  Each one needs to be analysed, confronted, and either denied or confirmed.........or set on the back burner until God teaches you.  He is faithful and will teach you.  I have asked questions of God that I did not get the answer to until years later.  It is kind of crazy when understanding comes years later and you remember the time that you struggled with it and asked the question that there seems to be no answer for.

You are in this for the long haul so there is no hurry.  You don't/can't fix everything all at once.  It is a process that takes our whole life.

A favorite scripture of mine that I use to check to see if I am on the right spiritual path is Romans 8:6

Romans 8:
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The individual decides the mind that they choose.  If we are self loathing, self hating, and generally unhappy then the doctrine in our mind is leading to death.  If we have life and peace, we know that are spiritual minded on the right path.

John 10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus came that we might have life!   Not just any life, but abundant life.

Philipians 4
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Please notice that you did verse 6...................you prayed, and made your request to God concerning the unforgivable sin, and you got an answer that rendered peace.

Your on the right path.

Good comment tom.
:thumbsup:

     :2thumbs:   Exellent      all of you and Tom    Amazing !!     and the song  Amazing grace !!

   Be happy and so blessed lostnbroken      you are Loved  :HeartThrob:

Let me say openly to you lostnbroken, i find and have found myself in the same thoughts and thinking as you when ever i leave the protection of His covering. i wander as it is accustomed to man, out from the cleft in the rock. Guilt and shame overcome me such as a thick fog, stifiling my vision and breath. It is only when i am shaken, by His Spirit, to KNOW that He has not left me alone, and telling me i am.... man, and that learning is what comes from the knowledge of good and evil as I stumble, fall, and lean on Him and He  helps me up. He IS ALWAYS THERE....i forget.....i forget He is always there to pick me up.....ALWAYS. I am man. :dsunny: :2c:

Know this, He NEVER left, His Holy Spirit is still with you, that is exactly why you "feel" the way you do, He is present. Yes you fell, and you have been made to realize that the Father is there to get up and know that you are very much welcome to come in.
The loneliness and the gloom you understand now is what you must accept and walk out of. We all learn by our errors, our human nature is to be disobedient, that is our battle.
Eph 6:12  For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
This is just my offering, and mine alone. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 07, 2014, 03:09:55 AM
thank you...i will not give up...it has been very hard to believe that god can love and forgive me after all i have done...i appreciate everyone's encouragement and patience with me...this is very hard, but jesus never said it is easy did he? i will try to take better care of myself and to fight the doubts and fears that plague me 24/7..my health is in bad shape because of this but i know i need to do better....there had been times i wondered if he were there but then terrible thoughts or doubts would come into my mind....i did not even know that this is how the enemy can attack us...but i would get scared and think those bad thoughts must be in my heart-sometimes about god or others-i did not even wants them!   it has taken a toll on me...so if he is still around then he must be very very patient with me  :P

"thank you...i will not give up" Now the Lord has your ear! Glory! :dsunny:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 07, 2014, 03:09:55 AM
...so if he is still around then he must be very very patient with me  :P

He has been, is, and will be.

Welcome to the fellowship of sinners who have found life in Jesus Christ.

May you see all the fruit of the Spirit in your as you continue in Him.

Thanks for getting back with us and continuing to work this our with us.

It is truly a blesshing to know you.

:dsunny:

  :HeartThrob:   
Wonderful      counsel and advice     from those who have experienced  the same things  ,
we are all sinners saved by  His grace      ''a gift of God ''   
  We   all here  accept   His precious gift of Life though His Son  the Lord Jesus Christ   , as  do you   precious one ,
you are  precious in His sight !    apple/daughter  of His eye !!

You are loved  :HeartThrob:
Zech 2

The Redemption of Zion
(Hosea 3:1-5)

6Ho, ho, and flee from the land of the north, An affirmation of Jehovah, For, as the four winds of the heavens, I have spread you abroad, An affirmation of Jehovah.

7Ho, Zion/Sion or Zion = "a parched place", be delivered who art dwelling [with] the daughter of Babylon/confusion .


8For thus said Jehovah of Hosts: After honour He hath sent me unto the nations who are spoiling you, For he who is coming against you, Is coming against the daughter/Apple  of His eye.





9For lo, I am waving my hand against them, And they have been a spoil to their servants. And ye have known that Jehovah of Hosts hath sent me.

10Sing, and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, For lo, I am coming, and have dwelt in thy midst, An affirmation of Jehovah.

11And joined have been many nations unto Jehovah in that day, And they have been to Me for a people, And I have dwelt in thy midst, And thou hast known that Jehovah of Hosts hath sent me unto thee.

12And Jehovah hath inherited Judah, His portion on the holy ground, And He hath fixed again on Jerusalem.

13Hush, all flesh, because of Jehovah, For He hath been roused up from His holy habitation!'

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 07, 2014, 03:09:55 AM
thank you...i will not give up...it has been very hard to believe that god can love and forgive me after all i have done...i appreciate everyone's encouragement and patience with me...this is very hard, but jesus never said it is easy did he? i will try to take better care of myself and to fight the doubts and fears that plague me 24/7..my health is in bad shape because of this but i know i need to do better....there had been times i wondered if he were there but then terrible thoughts or doubts would come into my mind....i did not even know that this is how the enemy can attack us...but i would get scared and think those bad thoughts must be in my heart-sometimes about god or others-i did not even wants them!   it has taken a toll on me...so if he is still around then he must be very very patient with me  :P

     :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :cloud9: oh yes.. he is infinitely patient.. and kind.. and loves you deeply, ever SO deeply!! God sees us as having the rightness of Jesus.. so "be bold" as Hebrews says.. draw near for that is the only source of transformation and change in our heart.. all change proceeds from there.. God bless!!!! :))

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 07, 2014, 07:39:47 PM
there are others like me who are going through this exact same thing...they too cannot feel the hs anymore after they fell into bad sins also....

Sounds like anemia.

If you read a particular Epistle of Paul you should hear the HS.  The trick is learning what hearing is for you.  I'm not sure but I'd imagine it is just a bit different for all of us.

Today I was reading the Book of Ephesians was very blessed...............fealt communion with the text, and God........that can only be the HS

I use to read a book over and over until I started getting it.  Ephesians is short.  Collisions is short.  Philippians is short.   I'd journal as I went.  Pick a book and read it several time......journalling as you go.

Your relationship with God is yours and can not be gaged by anyone else s.

:peace:

Repented means to have a change of mind, reason differently. i do not, imo, consider it to be a "i am sorry" kind of thing as much as beginning to KNOW.
1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

Yep :dsunny:

..to me, it would depend on how grievous the lie was, and how much harm it did, if lots, perhaps it would make you feel better to send a brief letter apologizing.. or it could just open up a wound? I would seriously think about and pray about that.. would it be a blessing to that one, or a curse? If a blessing, then perhaps you may indeed want to contact them..

I am probably the opposite of you.. I expect myself to slip.. yep, I've even been known to cuss.. just this morning as a matter of fact.. I say "oops, sorry Lord!" and mean it, and then I forget about it.. Past sins way in the past.. I forget those, they are "under the blood".. I sometimes over eat.. I've been known to get crabby (menopause, oops did I say that out loud?)

I figure I have ONE RULE - love God.. which is a verb. And I do it by daily seeking Him in prayer and bible reading.. in quiet moments with Him.

One of my favorite sayings is to "cut people some slack" as I myself am so far from perfect..

I think it's the Lord who showed me I should also cut myself some slack..

I figure that's all part of "entering His rest" and Jesus being that rest.. Of course if I was fornicating or defrauding folks, I would take those sorts of sins very seriously. But if we are LOVING HIM, we don't want to do those grievous sorts of things.. nor harm others..

I pray the Lord will let you know if you should call, write or what not the person you feel you grieved.. that you will just KNOW.. what to do, or not to do..

God bless you dear.. He loves YOU!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

..how much does He love you.. this much, He said, then He spread His arms and died (in your and my place, complete, "It is finished" He said.) His are the "footprints in the sand.." for He carries us..

I agree with Marie.

I will pray the Holy Spirit of God gives you super natural wisdom
and strength

Because those people are playing the part of the accuser of the brethren and are denying the very work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence they are in the spirit of the anti-Christ.

Amen and amen to lomarah and eaglesway.

Sister, you need to stop listening to the wrong spirit and the wrong people.

EVERYTHING is in the LORD'S HANDS  EVERYTHING great and small. You offered it and He accepted...REST IN THAT. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: lomarah on October 08, 2014, 02:44:05 AM
Because those people are playing the part of the accuser of the brethren and are denying the very work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence they are in the spirit of the anti-Christ.

:iagree:

Let the Holy Spirit of God convict you of righteousness.
A righteousness that cost Jesus his life so he could freely give this righteousness to
your account.

He forgives all.

And one thing is ABSOLUTELY for certain, if you feel the need of His love and fellowship- He is anxiously waiting for you to believe His love is yours, and fill you with it and surround you with it.

Yes! Yes! Yes! KNOW IT... ACCEPT IT.... EMBRACE IT...HE IS JUST WAITING TO FORGIVE AND LOVE YOU! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

"So Far To Find You" lyrics - CASTING CROWNS

You were broken, abandoned
And crying all alone
We were waiting and praying
And longing to bring you home
And then we saw your face
In a moment you were wrapped up in our hearts
We took a step of faith
And now here we are

Will you let me hold you in my arms tonight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you
Will you take my love and give up the fight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you

From a world away, I journeyed
Just to hold your hand
You will never be alone again
I've come so far to find you
So far to find you

You were fighting and fearful
You were hiding your heart away
But I was trying so hard to show you
'Cause there were no words that I could say
If you could see my heart
You would know that all I want to do
Is care for you

Will you let me hold you in my arms tonight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you
Will you take my love and give up the fight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you

Here in your eyes I see
Reflections of myself
How I'm the child that's really running
But I can hear a voice that's whispering my name
Saying come to me, don't run from me
I'm all you need and I am calling

Will you let me hold you in my arms tonight
(I have come so far)
Will you take my love and give up the fight
(I have come so far)

Will you let me hold you in my arms tonight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you
Will you take my love and give up the fight
I have come so far to find you
So far to find you

From Heaven's throne
Down to a rugged cross I came
It was My love for you that brought Me all the way
So far to find you
So far to find you

You were broken, abandoned
And crying all alone

Writer(s): John Mark Hall, Steven Curtis Chapman
Copyright: Small Stone Media, Sony/ATV Tree Publishing, One Blue Petal Music

CASTING CROWNS
"So Far To Find You" lyrics

thank you all...i am trying to just assure myself that god can love me despite all my wrongs and he wants no one to perish but all to be saved...even me...

KNOW IT.... :dsunny:

thank you   :HeartThrob:

Amen

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 09, 2014, 04:53:38 PM
i want god's light and love to be in me again and for all the fears and sorrow and darkness to be gone forever...this is my prayer, hope, desire and want...i have not felt this light or love for many years-not like i know it should be...believing that jesus died for ALL sins and he is love....please let this love be in me so strong  :HeartThrob:

God  fill you up in  the Holy Spirit   to the full  sis    !!  :HeartThrob:

You are well on your way sis!  :HeartThrob:

he hates the sins but not those who do sin? all through the ot god says he hates those who are workers of iniquity...thank you for being patient as i try to come to terms with all of this

It cost Jesus a lot.
I mean he gave everything and held nothing back,
So that he is able to say you are forgiven.
We are not so special that our sin is greater than his forgiveness.
We are required to walk in that forgiveness Dailey, no matter what else.

thank you....some how i keep thinking i am some profound exception to what he accomplished on the cross...i was asked if i think he should have suffered more to cover it all....i so misunderstood so much for a long time...i did not even know what grace really was until sometime last year when all this was beginning...and i was supposed to be a christian for 21 years

I think that's probably because the church mixes law and grace and leans heavily on the law.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 10, 2014, 12:30:55 AM
he hates the sins but not those who do sin? all through the ot god says he hates those who are workers of iniquity...thank you for being patient as i try to come to terms with all of this

Hi LandB,

God does not hate sin like man hates anything..................God thoroughly understands sin.  To sin is to miss the mark..........as in archery.  God does not hate the fact that we miss the mark.............He gets it, and ordained it as part of our experience.  Sin harms us, but in no way harms God.  We learn to overcome sin.  It may take many times of missing the mark before we beat a particular fault.  God does not leave us or forsake us because of our sin............He is always there to help us to decide to overcome.

Every one of us struggles with sin.  Every one of us knows the mercy of God for our sin.  For me the worst sin is to fall short of love.  Love is a spiritual practice.  We have a perfect example of love in Jesus Christ.

We will most definitely fall short of love on occasion.............but we see it!  That is the glory!  We see where we fall short, so we have the desire, and the help to overcome the next time.  The Christian life is truly a great adventure every day.  Our faith is so deep and multifaceted that it blows the mind.

God is teaching us to think...........to think Godly.  It is an awesome privilege to have this precocious daily faith, that always leads us to love more and more.

Your life is an encouragement.  Thank you for sharing.

:dsunny:

God does love you, sister, and he knows you love him. You just need to forgive yourself.

This fellow can write:
A GRACIOUS PARDON
By John MacDuff

Quote
A GRACIOUS PARDON

"How precious are Your thoughts unto me, O God!"

"I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and will not remember your sins!" — Isaiah 43:25

"I — yes, I alone" — the Great, the Pure, the Holy, the Righteous God! Surely if there is one way more than another, in which God's thoughts are not as man's thoughts, it is this — pardoning the rebel, welcoming the undeserving, forgiving and forgetting! How we remember the sins and the failings of others! How we harbor the recollection of ingratitude or unkindness. We say, "I forgive — but I cannot forget." God does both. Forgiveness is with Him no effort; it is a delight, "The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake."

"I — yes, I alone" — the God who for weeks and months, and, it may be, for years, we have been wearying with our iniquities, whose Book of Remembrance is crowded with the record of our guilt; "I — yes, I alone" — the very Being who has registered that guilt — is ready to take the recording pen and erase the pages thus blotted with transgression!

How can He thus forgive? How can the God who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity — cancel the handwriting that is against us in these volumes of transgression, so that they are remembered no more? It is through the atoning work of Jesus. "The Son of man has power to forgive sins." He shed His precious blood that He might have a right to say, "Your sins, which are many — are all forgiven!" What a complete erasure! Crimson sins, scarlet sins; sins against grace, love, warning, and privilege — see them all cast into the depths of the sea, never again to be washed on shore!

"Whatever our guiltiness is," says Rutherford, "yet when it falls into the sea of God's mercy — it is but like a drop of blood fallen into the great ocean." The ancients said there was nothing so pure as snow. But we know of something purer — a human soul washed in the blood of Christ!

What is the impelling MOTIVE with God in so wondrous a forgiveness as this? It is, it can be — nothing He sees in us. No repentance, however sincere; no good works, however imposing or splendid. It is His own free sovereign grace! "For My own sake!" "Thus says the Lord God, I do not do this for your sakes, O house of Israel; but for My holy Name's sake." If He had meted out retribution in proportion to our deserts, His thoughts towards us must have been of evil, not of peace — our blood would, long before now, have been mingled with our sacrifices. But He is God, and not man. "It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed." "O Israel you have destroyed yourself — but in Me is your help found."

Most wondrous chapter in the volume of God's thoughts — His full, free, unconditional, everlasting forgiveness of the guilty and undeserving! All the most gigantic thoughts of man, look poor and shabby after this. God, the just God — yet the Savior — just, in justifying the ungodly.

Lord! I accept the gracious overture of pardon. I joyfully repose on this thought of Your forgiving mercy. "My debt is very great, neither can I pay anything thereof myself. But I trust in the riches and graciousness of my Surety. Let Him free me, who became surety for me; who has taken my debt upon Himself." (John Gerhard) Yes, He has taken my debt! Think of God, not only willing to blot out and bury in oblivion a guilty past — but hear Him giving the assurance that the legion-sins are already cancelled. The debt has been discharged — the wages paid. He makes it an argument for immediate return and acceptance, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins! Return unto Me — for I have redeemed you!" What can we say about such wonderful things as these? "If God is for us — who can ever be against us?"
http://gracegems.org/B/macduff_thoughts.htm

Quote
"Our desire is that the Holy Spirit, who is the Divine Revealer and Interpreter of Christ and His truth, may impart to your hearts a sober, spiritual and sanctifying receptivity of His Word — abasing self, and exalting Christ! Our intention is to unfold and illustrate the Lord Jesus Christ in the relation in which He stands to His people — to unveil His glory, beauty, and fullness — to define the close bond of union that unites to Him all His people — and to bring you into a more personal realization of what Christ is to you, and of what you are to Christ." (Octavius Winslow)

Our objective is to set before the Christian pilgrim some reflections which may prove challenging, consolatory and encouraging — as he journeys up from this bleak, arid, wilderness world, leaning on his Beloved.

May God's blessing attend our humble effort to minister comfort to the downcast, strength to the weak, and courage to those who have set their faces towards their glorious eternal home.
http://gracegems.org/

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 09, 2014, 11:09:20 PM
can a lie as a false testimony be forgiven

Jesus died for that very purpose.
Do you think He failed.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Where sin abounds grace abounds more.

Listen when you finally realize that you are of the family of God.
You more than anyone else will know that your only in the family
because of the work Jesus accomplished on the Cross.

You are blessed with a greater understanding
of just how far his Grace can reach.
You can thank him for that Grace, in a real way knowing that you really
really needed that Grace.

Paul taught this so well that he had to add the disclaimer.
That we should not go out and purposely Sin to bring glory to God.

Quote from: dajomaco on October 10, 2014, 10:12:38 PM
Where sin abounds grace abounds more.

Listen when you finally realize that you are of the family of God.
You more than anyone else will know that your only in the family
because of the work Jesus accomplished on the Cross.

You are blessed with a greater understanding
of just how far his Grace can reach.
You can thank him for that Grace, in a real way knowing that you really
really needed that Grace.

Paul taught this so well that he had to add the disclaimer.
That we should not go out and purposely Sin to bring glory to God.

:dsunny:

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 10, 2014, 09:49:08 PM

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 09, 2014, 11:09:20 PM
can a lie as a false testimony be forgiven

Jesus died for that very purpose.
Do you think He failed.

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

:dsunny:

If you keep feeding yourself the truth of the word of God, eventually doubt will become less effective to the point that you know it is nonsense, and you won't be afraid of it. That's why I said to study Paul's epistles about the grace of God. 

Here's some information for you.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/doubts.html

I think you should read this.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/overwhelming.html

There are mountains and the top of mountains and there are valleys and very low spots in the valley. We are led in our walk to both. We feel great and full on the mountain tops, but led into the valley, we learn, many times the climb back up the mountain is tedious and we begin to feel we will not make it back to the top, we become forlorn and discouraged, but we need to keep climbing no matter how hard. There is a great rejoicing when we make the top and we find when we sit on the mountain and rest, we reflect on the much we learned on our journey. Friend you just started your journey again, up from the valley, take note of what you will learn, mark it....and PRAISE HIM AS YOU GO!

I think you should check out the links on this page too.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

No, like I said before, I think the scripture about that dealt with the people at that time in that circumstance because they attributed the miracles of Christ by the power of the holy spirit of God to the chief of the demons. We're not believing because we've seen miracles. We're saved in grace through faith not by perception. I know of folks who actually used to worship Satan who have been saved by the grace of God. Check out the second link I sent you. It has a lot of information that I think will be helpful.

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

"By faith are we walking, not by perception." (2 Corinthians 5:7)

The word "faith," translated from the Greek "pistis," literally "belief," is the noun for "believe." Believe! When we're in the dark, we need to maintain our belief in the light. That is exercising faith. Believe! You don't need to see a sign like the Jews did when Christ performed his miracles. We are saved in grace through faith. Believe!

"In grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

"For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God, God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing, since, in fact, Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking, yet we are heralding Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity, yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God, for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 1:21-25)

"He Who descends is the Same Who ascends also, up over all who are of the heavens, that He should be completing all. And the same One gives these, indeed, as apostles, yet these as prophets, yet these as evangelists, yet these as pastors and teachers, toward the adjusting of the saints for the work of dispensing, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ, that we may by no means still be minors, surging hither and thither and being carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness with a view to the systematizing of the deception." (Ephesians 4:10-14)

Don't be deceived by the church system that wants you to feel condemned for your sins because that is a denial of the power of God's saving grace!

Sister,sometimes He is silent in His love for you.......He will assure you of His love..be pateint

  and wait on Him.....  comfort ye,comfort ye my people.   it is in the times like these that

  our faith in His goodness are manifest......... :friendstu:

Amen

"Relax and know that I am Elohim." (Psalms 46:10)

Yes, sister, God "really does" love you even though you sin. You say that you "do not understand why or how he could forgive me for all of this stuff." The answer to "why" is because he loves you, and the answer to "how" is because he is omnipotent. You need to stop doubting and believe God!

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 01:47:43 PM
it seems i can only expect to go to hell and that is the only hope i have left? i hate myself so much fo rall of this   :(

It's not an option to go to a place that doesn't exist.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2014, 02:35:55 PM

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 01:47:43 PM
it seems i can only expect to go to hell and that is the only hope i have left? i hate myself so much fo rall of this   :(

It's not an option to go to a place that doesn't exist.

:iagree:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 02:00:14 PM
i NEED jesus ot rescue me...i NEED jelp and feel so beyond it...please someoneplease helpme...i need jesus but hwo can he love me with all of this in me liek this????????????????????????????

(Rom 7:15)  For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Does this sound like you? You end up doing the very things you don't want to do?

(Rom 7:18)  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Jesus does not dwell in your flesh, where sin is, but in your spirit. As long as you keep looking at your flesh, you will rightly see nothing good, for there is nothing good in it.

(Rom 7:19,20)  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Is it you doing the sin, or sin dwelling in you doing the sin? Read what Paul wrote carefully, especially the bolded part. I do not want you to miss this.

Paul wrote in Rom 7:24:  Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
You wrote: 'i NEED jesus ot rescue me...i NEED jelp and feel so beyond it'...
Do you sound like Paul here? Do you believe Paul ended up in the hell you think you will end up in?

(Rom 7:25)  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
You may not know in this life how he can love you, and rescue you, but it doesn't matter because he has already done it, even with all the sin in your members, without asking for your permission, or waiting for you to want it.

lostnbroken.

You may be broken. The Potter can dash a pot to make a new one out of it. Also called reborn.
You may even be lost. You may be that one sheep from Luke 15:4. But do you really think the divine Shepherd will fail to bring you back into His flock?

Watch and understand......
http://www.fathersloveletter.com/

thank you so much...that was beautiful...i want to come home to him so bad and i do not want my heart anymore but his heart inside of me....i told him this too...i want him to bring me home an to hold me

Quote from: gregoryfl on October 12, 2014, 04:09:07 PM
(Rom 7:18)  For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Jesus does not dwell in your flesh, where sin is, but in your spirit. As long as you keep looking at your flesh, you will rightly see nothing good, for there is nothing good in it.

(Rom 7:19,20)  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Is it you doing the sin, or sin dwelling in you doing the sin? Read what Paul wrote carefully, especially the bolded part. I do not want you to miss this.

I noticed you quoted from 1st John, where he says the one begotten of God cannot sin, for His seed abides in him. That fits what Paul wrote in Romans 7 perfectly. What Paul wrote there is all present tense. He was a believer in Yeshua at this time. This is not talking about before he believed.

Did you happen to notice the bolded section in Romans 7:20? He actually said it twice, also in verse 17:

(Rom 7:17)  As it is, I am no longer the one who is doing it, but it is the sin that is living in me.

It is the same with you, as a believer. Although you see yourself doing all these 'bad' things, as a believer, one born from above, YOU can no longer do these things. However, SIN in you can.

If Yeshua came so that humans who believed in him would no longer fail, then, to be blunt, he was the biggest failure of all time.

You are no longer identified by your sin. You are identified by Yeshua. We do not present ourselves to God as we see ourselves outwardly, but as we truly are, as set apart to God and pleasing to Him. He does not identify you by your worn out looking 'cover', or mine, or anyone's. He identifies you by the beautiful story you tell as part of the Lamb's book of life, one I can picture him one day sitting you on his lap and reading to you with utter joy.

Ronen

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 05:33:02 PM
thank you so much...that was beautiful...i want to come home to him so bad and i do not want my heart anymore but his heart inside of me....i told him this too...i want him to bring me home an to hold me

You have the heart of the Psalmist.
Psalm 19:14
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

With the heart of Psalm 19:14 you will get to the place joy.

That was one of those verses that I memorized and said over and over again in my adolescent struggle.

That and the one in Romans 7 that gregoryfl put so beautifully.

The verse says "the will is present with me"..................that is the Psalmist.  The Psalmists will was pure............just as Paul's.   How do we preform it????????????

Romans 8

Jesus Christ cleared the way for us to overcome the Devil.  You will, through Jesus Christ in your heart and life.

.

Hold that thought and dont let satan steal it.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 06:36:33 PM
i think he may have spoken into my heart just now! he ?says i keep focusing only on my sins  and my fears and the power they have over me..i need to focus on what he is that is good and holy and his love for me...i cannot receive his love or "allow" him to overcome it in me if i keep giving it more power the i give to him!!!!! he wants me to focus only on what is good and to try to stop focusing on sin....focus only on him  and what eh did not on what i did...oh pray i hang on to this...i think he is speaking to me?!?!?!?! :Pray:

  :thumbsup:

QuoteHold that thought and dont let satan steal it.

  exactly      Bro T !!  :icon_flower:   
    do not let   the evil one  choke out  word of Life in you

no worries   girl   , keep on keeping on and dont look back    !!

"And the cares of this world and the seductiveness of wealth and other desires are entering in and choking the word and it becomes unfruitful.

15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense(SIN) they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

There are two witnesses when we agree with they accuser.SATAN

At some point, when we've struggled enough, we give that up and realize Jesus is carrying us.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 09:28:50 PM
ok i am truly saved because i know jesus is lord and that he was raised from the dead and i have over and over asked him to please be in my heart?????

i did not even know i was supposed to have an new identity in him other then someone who is forgiven if/when they ask to be of sins...but by my belief in him this makes me saved and a new creation????

how do you know you are? if i still sin but do not always feel conviction of it until after i do it...like what paul wen through...he will help me to overcome this though... what happens next??? i am anxious to do and be everything for him but feel still stuck and useless right now...physically run down and need help at home  :(

You basically do what Paul recommended after he said he was not perfect. Put aside the things of the past and move forward.

Phil 3
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

If we don't do that, we can be in a bad place. I believe in honest truthful and heartfelt repentance, then moving on, moving forward.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 09:28:50 PM
i did not even know i was supposed to have an new identity in him other then someone who is forgiven if/when they ask to be of sins...but by my belief in him this makes me saved and a new creation?

In the westen defenition of believe the answer is no.
In the Jewish defenition. the anwer is yes.

It's a pratice what you preah mentality.
Saying hate is bad isn't good enough.  You must  also stop hating.
Not just lip service.

Quote
i am anxious to do and be everything for him

It must not be for Him because that woul be works.  It must be because the kindness of your heart tells you to do so.

Quoteif.i still sin

QuoteNo if.  You will.  Nobody is totally sinless. While the aim being. sinless it isn't. a huge problem.
God also puts great value in seeing you try and learn.
It's. a process.  Not something  thst happens instantly.

Part of the belief isrelaxing and knowing Jesus carried away the big load and Father controles the schedule.
I'm not saying. to be a slacker. Just grusting tbat Jesus. realy did something that actuzlly benefits. you.  Also believe Father isn't using a microscope. to detect sin.  The opposite...

2sam 14:14New International Version
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.

QuoteIn the westen defenition of believe the answer is no.
In the Jewish defenition. the anwer is yes.

It's a pratice what you preah mentality.
Saying hate is bad isn't good enough.  You must  also stop hating.
Not just lip service.

Amen. Belief makes us a new creature only in the sense that the Spirit baptism of Romans 6 comes by faith. God himself is what (or who) makes us a new creation.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 09:28:50 PM
ok i am truly saved because i know jesus is lord and that he was raised from the dead and i have over and over asked him to please be in my heart?????

Absolutely.  According to the scriptures, yes.  That's what it says.  Trust in Him, not anything of ourselves or own works.  It's about Him.

Acts 16:30 And after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 12, 2014, 11:41:44 PM
then i am not saved in truth am may not ever had been? great-i had thought i was once upon a time...i thought i met jesu sin a vision and believed so truly but then fell into so much fo the sin i have shared...

now i am confused and wondering if i am even mean to be saved and all this time i am thinking ok i am the lost sheep or pridigal but my perceptions of being saved have been off?

maybe i am not the one who is elect or chosen and no matter how much i wan to be and long to be, he will only reject me in the end because i failed....

One of the reasons we were taught that, is because we were taught to be saved from hell. Hell, as believed in most Christianity does not exist. But that theology caused everyone to believe that faith in Jesus immediately saves us from hell.

When the paradigm shifts to sin, and everything the Bible teaches about sin, I see that being saved from sin is a continual process. When we believe in Christ all our former sins are forgotten. PLUS, we receive the Spirit, which by walking according to it saves us from the former state of being lost in our sins, or from being sinful. That is a continual process of an every day walk. Going forward, we are told not to sin but if we do, we should ask The Lord for forgiveness and he will be faithful to forgive and cleanse us of all iniquity.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:05:34 AM
ok then i am saved after all? i fully have confessed him as lord[although i had not followed him the right way-ergo the sins] but know in my heart he is and that he is raised and at the right hand of god...i know in my heart these things...i have asked him to please be my lord, with much remorse and sorrow over my sins and how i have not followed him faithfully...i want him to take over my life now and to lead me where to go....and if you turn out to no tbe chosen/elect, then what? if all your heart you desire to do what is right an dto follow him but god doe snot make the way in you, then what happens?

Wanting to follow Him, please Him, growing, changing, is a result of your initial belief in Him and what He did and started in your heart.  It's not of our works, it's of His grace and faith - the work of the Holy Spirit in a regenerated heart - through being given the faith to believe and trust in Jesus.  Don't let anyone tell you that you have to perform to be saved or a Christian.  He did the work on the cross, and when He gives anyone faith to believe and trust in Him as Savior, He creates a new creation within.  Then the process of "allowing" Him to work through us, continually change us and overcome is like Seth said, a continuing process.  But that's not what makes us His and gives us the new spiritual birth.  It's the initial believing and trusting in Him, and then as we yield and follow, He does the rest on a life-long spiritual journey.  Many times we take detours, and are the prodigal son, and need to be called back to Him (drawn nearer) by the Holy Spirit.  Paul wasn't perfect, he struggled and had sin.  But he was a saint.  Not because he did anything, but because God did.  God came and got him and then gave him faith to believe and trust Him as Savior.  We're no different.  The initial crossing over into belief and being given a new birth, then the walking it out over time - but still all through His grace, mercy, and help.  Don't let anyone burden you with a doctrine of works, struggle, trying to do it yourself.  This is critical when the rubber meets the road and someone is struggling with the basics of life or death.  A yoke of burden should not be hung on your neck.  Jesus died for you and He loves you.  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  Look to Him and let Him do it through you.  Trust Him.

Looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Hebrews 12:2

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
back to square one-if i was saved and then through my willfull sins[lies etc.] over 20 years, then just last year realizing i had sorely messed up with him and was trying to make my way back to him, did i forfeit my salvation and lose the hs which is why i have had so much trouble-not feeling conviction of those sins, not being guided, not knowing who i even was suppose do tbe in him???beocming extremely sick and dperessed for a long time etc.

am i an apostate who was saved and now am not because i have struggled for so long...all i want is to be with him and right  and restored to him now and to live my life for him but wonder what is exactly going on really...

The word "saved" comes with a lot of theological baggage. The word saved is from the word "sozo" meaning healed, or made whole. Our condition of carnal mindedness is what Jesus came to save us from, the things we do to hurt ourselves. He came to bring healing. Christianity teaches a FUTURE saving from hell, but the word sozo suggests a healing from something, from being broken. If we go back to the things that hurt us, then we need to be healed again.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
back to square one-if i was saved and then through my willfull sins[lies etc.] over 20 years, then just last year realizing i had sorely messed up with him and was trying to make my way back to him, did i forfeit my salvation and lose the hs which is why i have had so much trouble-not feeling conviction of those sins, not being guided, not knowing who i even was suppose do tbe in him???beocming extremely sick and dperessed for a long time etc.

am i an apostate who was saved and now am not because i have struggled for so long...all i want is to be with him and right  and restored to him now and to live my life for him but wonder what is exactly going on really...

Jesus saved you - the initial new birth, "passing from death unto life" (if He gave you faith to believe and trust Him as Savior).  He forgives us when we confess, healing, restoring, continuing the salvation process.  He is faithful.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:29:45 AM
this is what i want so badly-to be healed, whole, restored and right with him in my heart....but if i somehow managed to offend him or make him give up on me and leave me then i lost all hope of being healed and ever being forgiven....so what i thought was being "saved" was not by biblical definition, even though i know he is, and even thought i met him in person in a vision, but even after that i was still unclear about what exactly what happened on the cross completely.. i misconstrued so many things and never completely understood the whole gospel or scriptures or how to even be free of sin-[i was a sinner who if i sinned then you ask to be forgiven and try your  your best] is it too late now or did i blow it completely with my cussing him and willfull sinning and all of this ??? this i what i need to know an di i di not then what do i do now to get there?????????

No you haven't lost hope to be healed. In fact it seems to me that your repentance means you aren't going to go back and do the very things that gave you all this pain, right? Remember the definition of insanity? Doing things over and over expecting different results?

It's never too late to stop touching the hot burner.  Just don't keep touching or you will experience more of these painful feelings. God will always bring healing to those who want it.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:29:45 AM
this is what i want so badly-to be healed, whole, restored and right with him in my heart....but if i somehow managed to offend him or make him give up on me and leave me then i lost all hope of being healed and ever being forgiven....so what i thought was being "saved" was not by biblical definition, even though i know he is, and even thought i met him in person in a vision, but even after that i was still unclear about what exactly what happened on the cross completely.. i misconstrued so many things and never completely understood the whole gospel or scriptures or how to even be free of sin-[i was a sinner who if i sinned then you ask to be forgiven and try your  your best] is it too late now or did i blow it completely with my cussing him and willfull sinning and all of this ??? this i what i need to know an di i di not then what do i do now to get there?????????

I don't believe your definition of being saved was not Biblical.  Believe and trust Jesus as Savior, and you will be saved.  That's Biblical.   He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  That's Biblical.  You are "made right" (righteousness) by His works on the cross and trusting Him for your salvation.  Keep it that simple.   :2c:  Again, "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith".

If you wish to discuss the simplicity of the gospel further feel free to PM me.  Even better yet, just trust Him, admit to Him you can't accomplish it, and ask Him to.  Blessings.  Jesus holds you in His hands.

Hi L&b,

This scripture might help you understand what I mean about salvation as healing

James 1
Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save (heal) your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

See how James isn't talking about hell, or God hurting people? He is talking about being saved from the very things that we do to hurt ourselves. You and I were taught the completely wrong understanding of salvation which causes fear and pain in itself.

We have all had our past conversation with sin. I could tell you some whopper stories myself. Things I still look back on sometimes and I feel bad that I did that. But we have to move on. We can't stay frozen in regret. The prodigal sons father took him back happily. Jesus loves you.

Believe on Jesus and you will be saved.

Confess your sins and you will be forgiven and cleansed.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish. 

Believe it.  Stand on it.  Look to HIM.  We're not, He IS.

No I don't think you were apostate. That word also carries a lot of theological baggage that can be stumbling block. I just think you remind me a lot of my own walk. Don't let anyone tell you that the fear of hell keeps anyone from sinning. I believed in Jesus and hell and there was a time I went through my own dark night of the soul. You are a person who made some mistakes, and I have made some of my own. I was a believer who had come to Christ in all sincerity but I was never taught about what Jesus came to save me from. I lived in a land of confusion. So, even as a professing Christian, I did some lousy things that hurt myself and others.

But those things led me to seek out Christ again. That's what the prodigal son needed, a bit if time to remember and return. If he can do it, so can we.  :HeartThrob:

After years of studying these things, I am convinced that the only harm we need to fear is the harm we can do to ourselves. God means us no harm. We hurt ourselves. As a loving father, God always waits for us to come back. Why do I not get involved with heroin? Because I have seen the damage and pain that comes of it. I fear drug abuse way more than the nonexistent hell. When I say "fear" I just mean that I stay away from it because of the real damage I know it can do. That's just an example. If you know you are not going back to the things that give you pain, then you have nothing to worry about. But you don't need to worry about God.

Sin brings us pain. God heals us. You don't have anything to be afraid of with Him. Sin is the thing that brought me pain, not God. God brings peace.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 02:39:34 AM
i want to hug everyone here   :HeartThrob:  and i wan to thug jesus and never let go ....i really appreciate all of your time and encouragement in this...i have been also trying to learn more about cus and how god/jesus plans to save all..i hope it is so because there are so many i love and care for either gone on or still here who are far from saved-my oldest child is a staunch agnostic who will not come back to jesus- was "saved" in a church, baptized an all and now will not accept there is a god....but many others too and i hope that this is true....i have noticed how others seem to have a very hard heart to others who do not believe in jesus or even know him...they want my children in hell i guess? or me because i failed? i actually had one girl on another board condemned me there because of all i had shared and said god told her about me she would see me there...it hurt badly....

That's the irony of the hell doctrine. It not only distracts from the real issues, it mounts confusion upon confusion and makes professing Christians harder in heart. I say that from personal knowledge. I think if everyone understood what salvation/healing is about, they might pay a little more attention to their own walk rather than condemning others. Just my own theory.

First I would say you don't need to worry about letting Jesus down. He is pretty solid in his knowledge of you  :cloud9:

You really cannot let him down. But yes, he empowers us to not sin, and he convicts us if we do, plus he advocates on our behalf, and he totally forgives us when we confess. What we want to avoid is getting HARD. Getting stubborn and hard and proud is what we want to be watchful for. We need to not tell ourselves, "I don't have any sin, why should I repent." Sister, you are the opposite of that. I wish you could see how amazing you are doing right now.

I really see such a humility and that doesn't mean keep beating yourself up. You have to move on, but emotions sometimes defy reason. Sometimes you can know you are forgiven but emotions can play tricks and the devil will try to trick you into thinking you are not forgiven. Remember to stand on: IT IS WRITTEN, if I confess my sins, he is faithful to forgive and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. The devil has no argument for that.

What's important is to pray and and read the word and also stand on the promises of the word, that in confessing he is always faithful to forgive.

My thought on that is that when we get lost in sins and just totally go off the rails, there isn't some other kind of punishment we need to worry about. It's a bit much to get into now, but I believe that the prodigal son story reveals all that we need to be concerned about. I believe the reason the parable doesn't show the father sending out his people to bring the son back, is because the son wasn't ready. He was ready when he was ready and not a moment sooner. If we get lost in sin, God will wait for us at the door, and he is patient and wise and he knows when we will come back. That's the advantage of having a God who knows everything. Can't surprise him.  :laughing7:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 03:13:33 AM
he lets us reap what we sow it seems but so that we might learn form it? i have been learning the hard way  :sigh:  there are two dc talk songs that makes me think about it: .what if i stumble and the hard way...

Yeah he does lets us reap what we sow, but that's good for us. Sometimes we need that. One time, I kicked a box really hard and hurt my toe. When I was younger, I had that kind of temper. Now if I want to kick a box, I think, hmmmm is it worth the toe just so I can do that? Yeah, I've learned the hard way on things. I think God is there to remind us, do you really want to go down that road?

foundandhealing, this is for you

"whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think on these things."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czxd5oa-gi0

O soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There's light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free!

Refrain:
Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
O'er us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conqu'rors we are!
His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!


Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith - Heb. 12:2

God bless.

thank you  :cloud9:   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:05:34 AM
ok then i am saved after all?

Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Even before you were born you where saved.
Yes, you can get lost temporary.
But the Good Sheperd will start to seek you.
Will He fail?

Quotei fully have confessed him as lord[although i had not followed him the right way-ergo the sins] but know in my heart he is and that he is raised and at the right hand of god...i know in my heart these things...i have asked him to please be my lord, with much remorse and sorrow over my sins and how i have not followed him faithfully...

Sounds very good to me. But I'm not your Judge. Neither can I look into your heart.

Quotei want him to take over my life now and to lead me where to go....and if you turn out to no tbe chosen/elect, then what?

It may sound blunt and not what you want to hear....
Most people, including Christians are not the elect. The elect is the bride taken out of the body (church/ekklesia). The elect are hidden/mystery. Just as bride Eve was hidden in the body of Adam (rib)
The elect are the barley, first fruits, overcomers, 1st resurrection, bride.
But that does NOT mean all others are doomed. For one thing there are several resurrections.
What's a wedding party without guests?  :LH:

Quoteif all your heart you desire to do what is right an dto follow him but god doe snot make the way in you, then what happens?

Not a clue. I  just have very limited understanding of the way how God selects His elect. All you have to know, believe, understand is that Father and Son have  a plan for you that's so cheerful you are unable to grasp it.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 12:29:45 AM
this is what i want so badly-to be healed, whole, restored and right with him in my heart....but if i somehow managed to offend him

Jesus was beaten to pulp, ridiculed, crucified etc.
Does that count a tiny bit as offending to you?
Don't take my word for it. Read His opinion on the matter.

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

BTW forgiveness and stuff is not about who you were. But who you are (becoming).

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 01:08:15 AM
.i am filled to the brim with the terrible things i have done-lost most of my teeth because of drugs[self-medicated to numb the inner pain] so many things wrong...why i hope i am not an apostate but more the prodigal child who only wants to come home...

The pharisees looked down on Jesus because He was eating and drinking with sinners.
- Jesus hates the sin.
- Jesus loves the sinner.
- Jesus isn't scared away by sin.


You seem to be on the right track now. Just don't set your hopes too high. God works on His own schedule. So while He can have it all fixed within 7 hours He just as well can decide to spread it out over 7 years.
The only 'works' required of you is, keep believing God is working on you. Don't let let satan whisper in your ears that Father abandoned you again. Call it your test of faith.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 04:15:09 PM
god si love-he wants no one to perish...he will one way or another bring all to himself to save all adn this is what is happening...i will keep on working in faith to believe this and he will help me to overcome and to be made whole again.. :HeartThrob:

Could not find the little hug icon so......HUG! Welcome back!  :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 13, 2014, 04:25:25 PM

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 13, 2014, 04:15:09 PM
god si love-he wants no one to perish...he will one way or another bring all to himself to save all adn this is what is happening...i will keep on working in faith to believe this and he will help me to overcome and to be made whole again.. :HeartThrob:

Could not find the little hug icon so......HUG! Welcome back!  :dsunny:

Me too! me too! HUG! God bless!!! :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

 It is not the Holy Spirit of God convicting you of Sin
He is NOT saying you better stop this Sin or God will get you.
Look to the Cross to Jesus crucified.
Then you will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit convicting you of righteousness.
YOU have been made righteous in the Sight of God.

whatever it was it's been forgiven
the moment i asked he took it away
it's been cast in the sea he uses for forgetting
whatever it was that's now under his grace

there is a season a time for all things
and there is a reason for the sorrow sin brings
but when we take it to Jesus just like he said
that's when he tells us "I forgive and forget"

whatever it was it's been forgiven
the moment i asked he took it away
it's been cast in the sea he uses for forgetting
whatever it was that's now under his grace

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 14, 2014, 01:03:37 PM
need to affirm again i did not commit the unpardonable sin when i told god these as a comfort was a lie on purpose??? i was upset when i said it but then apologized and asked hi to please forgive me and not leave me...i asked him if he hated me and condemned me now when i said it, but felt so much pain and inner grief and then guilt and then extreme fear i went oo far when i did this on purpose as an insult...i have felt awful over this  in many tears over and over telling him so...if i am not worried about the other sins, i end up worried over this one again...sigh

Be happy and blessed  dear sister ,


  If you can say  you are born again by the seed of Christ in you and Holy Spirit witness   as     you have confessed Jesus Christ as to dying on the cross for your sins , you are saved   by the grace of God , now you must  BE  thankful right ?

WE praise God sister!!!    your sins are forgiven you       , you are now a child of the King !!   
its time to come  out of the sleep of death and rise and SHINE  :dsunny:      the Day   is here   and the Light shines in your heart   , its time for some thanksgiving  and praise to your SAVIOR      THE LORD Jesus Christ       !     Let  us all rejoice in your   testimony    and witness   to the glory of God   :HeartThrob:   

   we love Him because he first loved us    and gave Himself  for us that we might   walk  in the Spirit and newness of Life in Christ

For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

  the law of    the knowledge of good and evil     is where  we are held     , by the evil one     under that tree 

Jesus said    make the tree good and its fruits good a tree is known by its fruits        we are to keep praising Jesus for this    and asking for the good of God  ,  dont look back    into a sinful past         lay aside every  weight and sin     that entangles us       and  run     like a race set free into the Glory that awaits    those whom trust in the Lord Jesus Christ !!    the fresh and clean and newness    in Christ and His gracious offerings ,   can you be punished for doing good to God and one another ?

  God though Christ is the power to save us all !! trust Him   !  He loves all His children   wonderfully !!




  :HeartThrob:


18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

5 In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free -- stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude;
2 lo, I Paul do say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing;
3 and I testify again to every man circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law;
4 ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;
5 for we by the Spirit, by faith, a hope of righteousness do wait for,
6 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working.
7 Ye were running well; who did hinder you -- not to obey the truth?
8 the obedience [is] not of him who is calling you!
9 a little leaven the whole lump doth leaven;
10 I have confidence in regard to you in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded; and he who is troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.
11 And I, brethren, if uncircumcision I yet preach, why yet am I persecuted? then hath the stumbling-block of the cross been done away;
12 O that even they would cut themselves off who are unsettling you!
13 For ye -- to freedom ye were called, brethren, only not the freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through the love serve ye one another,
14 for all the law in one word is fulfilled -- in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;'
15 and if one another ye do bite and devour, see -- that ye may not by one another be consumed.
16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;
17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will -- these ye may not do;
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;
24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
25 if we may live in the Spirit, in the Spirit also we may walk;
26 let us not become vain-glorious -- one another provoking, one another envying!

Quote from: rosered on October 14, 2014, 03:33:04 PM

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 14, 2014, 01:03:37 PM
need to affirm again i did not commit the unpardonable sin when i told god these as a comfort was a lie on purpose??? i was upset when i said it but then apologized and asked hi to please forgive me and not leave me...i asked him if he hated me and condemned me now when i said it, but felt so much pain and inner grief and then guilt and then extreme fear i went oo far when i did this on purpose as an insult...i have felt awful over this  in many tears over and over telling him so...if i am not worried about the other sins, i end up worried over this one again...sigh

Be happy and blessed  dear sister ,


  If you can say  you are born again by the seed of Christ in you and Holy Spirit witness   as     you have confessed Jesus Christ as to dying on the cross for your sins , you are saved   by the grace of God , now you must  BE  thankful right ?

WE praise God sister!!!    your sins are forgiven you       , you are now a child of the King !!   
its time to come  out of the sleep of death and rise and SHINE  :dsunny:      the Day   is here   and the Light shines in your heart   , its time for some thanksgiving  and praise to your SAVIOR      THE LORD Jesus Christ       !     Let  us all rejoice in your   testimony    and witness   to the glory of God   :HeartThrob:   

   we love Him because he first loved us    and gave Himself  for us that we might   walk  in the Spirit and newness of Life in Christ

For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

  the law of    the knowledge of good and evil     is where  we are held     , by the evil one     under that tree 

Jesus said    make the tree good and its fruits good a tree is known by its fruits        we are to keep praising Jesus for this    and asking for the good of God  ,  dont look back    into a sinful past         lay aside every  weight and sin     that entangles us       and  run     like a race set free into the Glory that awaits    those whom trust in the Lord Jesus Christ !!    the fresh and clean and newness    in Christ and His gracious offerings ,   can you be punished for doing good to God and one another ?

  God though Christ is the power to save us all !! trust Him   !  He loves all His children   wonderfully !!




  :HeartThrob:


18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

5 In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free -- stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude;
2 lo, I Paul do say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing;
3 and I testify again to every man circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law;
4 ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;
5 for we by the Spirit, by faith, a hope of righteousness do wait for,
6 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working.
7 Ye were running well; who did hinder you -- not to obey the truth?
8 the obedience [is] not of him who is calling you!
9 a little leaven the whole lump doth leaven;
10 I have confidence in regard to you in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded; and he who is troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.
11 And I, brethren, if uncircumcision I yet preach, why yet am I persecuted? then hath the stumbling-block of the cross been done away;
12 O that even they would cut themselves off who are unsettling you!
13 For ye -- to freedom ye were called, brethren, only not the freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through the love serve ye one another,
14 for all the law in one word is fulfilled -- in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself;'
15 and if one another ye do bite and devour, see -- that ye may not by one another be consumed.
16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;
17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will -- these ye may not do;
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;
24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
25 if we may live in the Spirit, in the Spirit also we may walk;
26 let us not become vain-glorious -- one another provoking, one another envying!

:iagree: We are free to Love Gods'children
See Dad I love your children also.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 14, 2014, 07:48:12 PM
working hard to keep overcoming the ongoing condemnation that haunts me...writing down the opposite of what keeps coming to me..if it feels like god hates me then i write down and proclaim he loves me...if i feel unforgiven then i say he does forgiven..if feel fear then i keep telling myself he has not left me...i must be under attack and need to stop making agreement with these things which are hurting me...

Yes, that's a good approach. Feelings can be good but they are the least reliable way to establish and confirm truth. Feelings can betray us which is why Satan appealed to feelings of hunger and power to tempt Christ, but Christ stood firm on what was written.  :HeartThrob:

"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

"Do not worry about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God, and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:6,7)

"No trial has taken you except what is human. Now, faithful is God, Who will not be leaving you to be tried above what you are able, but, together with the trial, will be making the sequel also, to enable you to undergo it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

"For whatever was written before, was written for this teaching of ours, that through the endurance and the consolation of the scriptures we may have expectation." (Romans 15:4)

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 14, 2014, 08:04:34 PM
listening to jesus culture...your love never fails...he makes all things work together for my good....pain in the night but joy in the morning...his mercies are new every morning...he stays the same through the ages...

http://youtu.be/-dziczpYl94

i had not worshipped him for s while because i thought he did notwant o even hear from me..but it is beautiful...he is so awesome!!!!!!

  good song  never heard of it before now    :HeartThrob:  very upbeat and Lively !!      :thumbsup:  LIKE !! :flowerred:

"Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary, for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials. Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand. Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace; with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one. And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

"Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God, because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin. Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets), yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus (Whom God purposed for a Propitiatory shelter, through faith in His blood, for a display of His righteousness because of the passing over of the penalties of sins which occurred before in the forbearance of God), toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26)

Amen, sister.

 :dsunny:

Whoot!

Don't doubt in the darkness what God has clearly shown you in the Light  :Peace2:

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 14, 2014, 08:27:49 PM
i have a new addiction and is name is jesus!!!!!! i do not need something else to fill what eh ash done in my heart and continues to do for me!!!!!! :dsunny:

he wont relent until he has it all , my heart is his.... :HeartThrob:

:dsunny:

 :cloud9:

The Bible says

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (sozo - healed, made whole).

One of the things I realized is that when Jesus says that those who blaspheme the Spirit hath not forgiveness through the age, it does not contradict the above scripture. The scripture says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord." Alot of people sometimes wonder "what if I blasphemed the Holy Spirit, does that mean Jesus will not forgive me, even if I repent?" Of course not, because that would contradict Romans 10.

What I believe is happening is that Jesus is saying that those who blaspheme the Spirit are so hardened at that point, that they do not seek out for repentance in the first place. They are not those who "call upon the name of the Lord" in the first place. So, if you are calling upon the name of the Lord, then Jesus was not talking about you when he said that those Pharisees would not have forgiveness. They wouldn't repent in the first place. ANYONE who repents shall be healed by the Lord. That includes you lostnbroken. Are you calling upon the name of the Lord? If so, it means that you are not hardened. God will always forgive those who call upon his name.

Romans 10:13 cannot be subverted by another scripture. It all stands together as one, and should be harmonized not negated.

 :cloud9: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2014, 09:17:26 PM
The Bible says

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (sozo - healed, made whole).

One of the things I realized is that when Jesus says that those who blaspheme the Spirit hath not forgiveness through the age, it does not contradict the above scripture. The scripture says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord." Alot of people sometimes wonder "what if I blasphemed the Holy Spirit, does that mean Jesus will not forgive me, even if I repent?" Of course not, because that would contradict Romans 10.

What I believe is happening is that Jesus is saying that those who blaspheme the Spirit are so hardened at that point, that they do not seek out for repentance in the first place. They are not those who "call upon the name of the Lord" in the first place. So, if you are calling upon the name of the Lord, then Jesus was not talking about you when he said that those Pharisees would not have forgiveness. They wouldn't repent in the first place. ANYONE who repents shall be healed by the Lord. That includes you lostnbroken. Are you calling upon the name of the Lord? If so, it means that you are not hardened. God will always forgive those who call upon his name.

Romans 10:13 cannot be subverted by another scripture. It all stands together as one, and should be harmonized not negated.

:iagree:

My question is, whatever that unforgivable sin is, if once committed, would that mean that that person will not be universally re-conciliated?

No.

It means that person will be in the back of the queue of the people (100% of humanity) that are entering God's glorious forever-kingdom.

God has powerful ways to bring people to repentance.

Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 17, 2014, 11:19:15 AM
My question is, whatever that unforgivable sin is, if once committed, would that mean that that person will not be universally re-conciliated?

Jesus said that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age or the one to come. He did not say it would never be forgiven.

Colossians 1:16-21 clearly teaches that ALL will be reconciled by the blood of His cross, as does 1 Corinthians 15:22-25.

EVery adversary will be made a footstool for His feet.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.(phil 2:10,11)

The last enemy to be subjected is death. Paul says death will be destroyed and every adversary subjected to Christ is that God may be ALL IN ALL.




Not all in some.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 06:11:03 PM
but with willfull sin there are still consequences and accountability with god who is still angry with those who do this....i know i had sinned willfully in the past and am still struggling to overcome things and repent of everything the right way...but here are some quotes of other posts which are very upsetting if you are a prodigal who has been lost for some time because of such sins:

"The Gospel should not be abused as a license to sin.  To tempt the Lord your God is a sin, and he is our Father, to willingly do evil, or have poor behaviour so that grace might abound is a wicked thing that shows a wicked heart.

Sin brings fear, it was after the disobedience of Adam that they both ran away from God and hid themselves out of fear.

We should certainly fear the chastisement of the Lord when we are unrepentant, lukewarm, unloving, and sinful "saints" before the eyes of the righteous and holy God.  God wants noble priests, royal kings, good stewards, and legitimate sons who will worship in Spirit, Truth, and Love - not bastard children full of rebellion thinking that God won't deal with flagrant, blatant, known acts of sin.

Sin still exists, even if Grace covers it all.  But Grace is not Grace if the rapist tears through the flowers of fifty little girls while shaking his fist at God and doesn't reap what he has sown, Grace is not Grace if God winks an eye at the drug dealer introducing a playground to heroine, Grace is not Grace if housebreakers ply their wares and break families apart through divorce, lies, and theft.  They might not get the death penalty by fire, they might not be eternally damned by it, but they WILL be purified by the Lord our God who is THE All consuming fire!

And the eyes of a Holy God who is against your actions, and has come to chastise you is a fearful thing.  We fear the chastisement of our earthly parents when they punish us for doing wrong things, even though it is certainly done out of Love - the rod of God's remedial judgements are likewise fearful, yet twice loving.

God did not give us a lazy gospel, he expects us to work out our salvation with Him - not that works save us, but that if we are indeed claiming to be first fruits, we'd better act like it, and act like it through and by the grace and power of God who has shown us such loving kindness and mercy."

and then this one:

"Those who use grace as a license to sin are walking in the flesh, and the consequences of that are terrible- as are the consequences of walking in dead religion and the law. Defining fear as awe and reverence, and clearly understanding the severity of the consequence of rebellion- as opposed to horror, terror, etc. is an important distinction, IMO, and thats the only reason I posted."

even though i have repented of many of those sins i know i have done and still am working to overcome, this tells me his wrath is still against me because of those choices....i am wanting to feel loved and accepted and forgiven by him when he is still very possibly angry   :sigh:

Are you doing any of those things you listed? If so, then perhaps you DO need to fear the wrath of God and repent. I hope you are not committing such heinous sins and persisting in them.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[ your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

The hope of the gospel is that "all will be reconciled through the blood of His cross- even the most wicked. WE WERE ALL ENEMIES hostile of mind and evil in behavior!

We were all redeemed, reconciled by His blood!

Then our behavior changed, and with some of us it has taken longer than with others to get victory perhaps- while some may struggle with the more "overt" sins of the flesh, others may struggle with sins of pride, anger, self-righteousness, arrogance, ambition greed- hidden sins that are sometimes not as "visible"- but just as deadly to the spiritual life.

We can only overcome by going to the throne of grace for forgiveness & help in the time of need.


Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 07:23:36 PM
not persisting in those sins but still struggle with others and mess up all the time-i cannot be good enough for him....every sin counts against you and you store up wrath against you...i keep asking for forgiveness over and over and asking him to help me overcome...but what if i cannot be forgiven for saying hs as a comfort is a lie and joke even though i tried to say i was sorry for it? what fi cur is wrong after all?i lean to it and in great hope because there are so many who are lost

In Romans 1 we see a picture of God's wrath, and it's not like every sin counts against you and then ther is another judgment. The wrath in Romsn 1 is like the prodigal son. God will leave you to it essentially and allow your conscience to bring you to bring you to a place of repentance. I believe this has actually happened with you already. The whole idea, in my opinion, of God's wrath is to produce humility. For those who blaspheme the Spirit by calling God the same as the devil, most likely God will harden them unto a day where he will bring the the reaping of their sowing to their doorstop. For those who persist in sin, God actually hardens them UNTIL they repent. The reason he hardens them is so that they will experience the negative consequences of their actions and desire forgiveness.

If you have already desired forgiveness, then you don't need the resistance of God against the proud. God resists the proud, not the humble. You don't sound like the proud to me. So at least concerning the sins you have already repented about, you don't need holdover punishment. God does not hold punishment for sins repented about because the whole reason for his judgments is to produce repentance in the first  place.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 07:53:21 PM
even if  i told god "he" lied to me an dit was about teh hs being a comfort...who is the father of lies??? i did not mean it that way at that moment but thats what ended up being said  :(  i have cried many tears over that and everything i have done....i hope you are right and that he will help me to overcome evreything in me that is wrong and for all...

Well to me that sounds more like unbelief rather than blasphemy, but either way, the reason God takes wrath on people is to produce repentance. Once that happens, sins are forgiven. As the scripture says, God is love. And, love holds no record of being wronged. Gods wrath us not about holding a record against the repentant, but to bring about repentance for the proud. If AFTER they repent he continues to hold over a punishment, then love does hold a record and God could not be love. I believe that God is love and love holds no record.

Then our behavior changed, and with some of us it has taken longer than with others to get victory perhaps- while some may struggle with the more "overt" sins of the flesh, others may struggle with sins of pride, anger, self-righteousness, arrogance, ambition greed- hidden sins that are sometimes not as "visible"- but just as deadly to the spiritual life.

We can only overcome by going to the throne of grace for forgiveness & help in the time of need.[/b]


Man is interested in less Sin.

God demands NO Sin.

If we as a people gave each other the Grace we give ourselfs.
So simple do unto others.
Judge not.

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 07:23:36 PM
not persisting in those sins but still struggle with others and mess up all the time-i cannot be good enough for him....every sin counts against you and you store up wrath against you...i keep asking for forgiveness over and over and asking him to help me overcome...but what if i cannot be forgiven for saying hs as a comfort is a lie and joke even though i tried to say i was sorry for it? what fi cur is wrong after all?i lean to it and in great hope because there are so many who are lost

lnb join the group of 7 billion sinners.
Not good but you obviously repented a lot,  which God obviously likes.
Your main problem isn't what you did but what you are still doing.  Namerly not trusting in Father's vast mercy an the Son's cleancing blood.
:2c:

Show me one, just one, person except Jesus who was without  sin (after becoming a believer).

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 12:00:52 AM
the lambs book of life has many people in it who did not fail and fall and manage to be erased out of it....

How do you know they never fell?

Proverbs 24:16
For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity

God Is Love.

Do you think apostle Paul is in the book?


BTW BoL looks most likely is symbolized by  a Jewish custom in which the name of certain criminals was blotted out. Their name wasn't allowed to be used for a generation. A generation. Not forever.

Really, Paul the mass murderer in BoL?

1 Tim 1

13 the one who before was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and insolent; but I received mercy, because being ignorant I did it in unbelief.

15 It is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Messiah Yahshua came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

Paul wasn't just an ignorant nitwit. He was educated and knew a very great many things about God.

Paul said he was in unbelief. He didn't really spell that out, but considering his determination on rooting out Christians I wouldn't be suprised he also once was of the opinion Jesus miracles were done by the power of satan. (unforgiveble sin)
Now I think of it; the people back then had just 3 options. They believe the miracles came from God, or satan. The only other option (3rd) I can think of is that some assumed Jesus just used actors that acted to be healed.

We know Paul was in unbelief. That means he rejected the idea Jesus healed with the power of HS. That leaves satan and actors. Although I think actors is possible, it's not mentioned in the Bible so perhaps that means he believed satan gave the powers to Jesus.
Paul wasn't a man of just words. He actively slaughtered everyone Christian he could lay his hands on.

Sound way worse than you did.

But everyone will seek or be found. That's the whole thing.
Every knee will bow before Jesus.
The Good Sheperd of UR will find the lost sheep. He's not as lazy and lousy at His job as the ETs believe.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2014, 06:07:41 AM
But everyone will seek or be found. That's the whole thing.
Every knee will bow before Jesus.
The Good Sheperd of UR will find the lost sheep. He's not as lazy and lousy at His job as the ETs believe.

:laugh:

found this on another thread:

On a question involving the interpretation of a phrase, drawn from a language still living in their day, it is most important to note the attitude of most Fathers towards this sin. "The notion," says BINGHAM, "that most of the antients had of the sin against the Holy Ghost, was not that it was absolutely unpardonable, but that men were to be punished for it both in this world and in the next, unless they truly repented of it." - vol. ii. 921 So ATHANASIUS says of this sin, "If they repent they may obtain pardon, for there is no sin unpardonable with God to them who truly repent." - De comm. essent. So S. CHRYSOSTOM, "We know that this sin was forgiven to some that repented of it." * * What is then the than meaning of it? That it is a sin less capable of forgiveness than all others, - Hom. xlii. in S. Matt. xii. So VICTOR of Antioch - Comm. in S. Marc. iii., S. AMBROSE - De penit. ii .4, &c. And so DIONYSIUS (Syrus), as late as the tenth century, says: "Many, who did blaspheme. against the Holy Ghost, afterwards repented, and obtained pardon," - translated from a Syriac MSS. (Dubl. 1762.) Two points are very noteworthy; (I.) that these Fathers did not believe any sin to be in itself unpardonable, (II.) that they did not believe the phrases eis ton aiona or aionios, to mean in strictness "never," or "everlasting," as our version renders them. And so nobody will press the similar phrase as to the iniquity of Eli's house not being purged for ever - 1 Sam. iii. 14, to mean that it was literally unpardonable.



I may add that if we retain the authorized text in S. .Mark, the word rendered "damnation" is merely "judgment." But the true reading is probably hamartematos=sin, i.e., is guilty of a. sin, whose results last into a future age or ages. The phrase translated "never," is so far from meaning this literally, that it is elsewhere in Scripture followed by "and beyond," i.e., and after, e.g., Ex. xv. 18, Dan. xii. 3, &c. In S. Matt, the parallel passage is differently worded. "It shall not be forgiven in this world (i.e., age) nor in that which is to come." These words imply that there is forgiveness for sin after this life in very many cases - (an awkward fact for the traditional creed,) and therefore repentance after death is quite possible. Next, there is no assertion whatever that, after this age, and that to come, there may not be forgiveness even for the sin v. the Holy Ghost. A few words may be added. This terrible sin is the sin of the Scribes and Pharisees, i.e., of the hard, narrow religionist, and not of the ungodly. The sin itself is very clearly defined, "because they said, He has an unclean spirit," v. 30. Its essence lies in confounding the works of the Good and Evil Spirits, as, e.g., assigning to God any kind of evil act, p. 37,8. Must it not be a near approximation to this awful sin to assign to God deeds which, like endless torture, our conscience tells us are evil and cruel?

  Have  you considered     LB .


  The reason one could not be saved    for blaspheming the Holy Spirit   in this age or age to come ?
I can only think of  one reason

  Can you think of any reason ?

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 09:10:23 PM
perhaps being so hardened that they would not ever seek it? but all sins un-repented of would also lead to death....perhaps ultimately rejecting jesus as saviour and not being able to find forgiveness?

  Hi Lb ,

For me  only I am not sure of others    what they think  ,
  I believe its to  speak evil against      the HOLY SPIRIT

When Jesus admonished those  telling them they were close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit as spoke of the  sin so  bad it had no forgiveness in the  age / time they were    standing there   speaking to  Him nor to  the   next coming  age
  we know when  Jesus was speaking to them       He had not died on the Cross   yet   bringing in the new covenant    of grace      , for me this is the age  that was coming   upon   all to have the Spirit poured out on all flesh

     the miracle the Lord done       in healing they      called it of the devil  being the Hebrew Baal-zebub, meaning the lord of the flies, or possibly, as some translations have it, the lord of dung, was the Philistine pagan god of Ekron.

   Jesus told them   if the sinned against Jesus they were forgiven and   against God  , but  not the HOLY SPIRIT

Do you want to know what I believe this means  LB ?

We can go farther if you want to understand  why I do not think you  sinned against the Holy Spirit   .

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 09:30:42 PM
please....i know in that moment when i said this thing it was an insult, but more to god[not any less a sin  :(] but i said something about hs being a lie...this is why it has plagued me...i did do my best to apologize and tell him i was sorry and that i was very wrong to say this to him...i was in a very bad place in emotions[anguish and pain] all i really did want was for him to come right then and say ti would be ok but i needed to trust him and he would help me through the mess i was in...but i backslid form there and was trying to hang onto him but not very well  :(

  The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth     and testifies of the Father and the Son     
 
I honestly do not think it was you  that spoke  this  LB
  but a bad spirit in you    ,    many dont understand    this but remember Jesus    cast out    evil spirits  in mankind ?


     I remember   this plain as day    ,   when the evil spirits told Jesus  did you come to torment us before the time ?


  the time was the age to come the age of  grace   by the Cross Jesus would judge   the world  in righteousness   

  those are the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit and Spirit of truth      evil spirits in a man    , not the poor man being over run by evil spirits in the first place      to me  sister .
  they cannot be born  again   from the Holy Spirit    of truth     in the age/ of law  of moses  nor the Age of Grace though Jesus Christ

because they    are the sin   and error in mankind      that we pray for deliverance from
 
Jesus says in His prayer to   His   Father  in John 17
 
Keep them from the evil one     , this man of sin is in every man  that must be destroyed       so evil cannot exist in Gods kingdom

   I sure hope this makes sense to you 
  there is many scriptures to back up   what I am telling you  in the  4 gospels ..  the works of God though Jesus Christ   in healing   and delivering    us   from sin

         when the Lord  Jesus delivers us from evil     its a big deal        the evil is bound for destruction

  but not  Gods     children they are  born again from above         by the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH         

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 09:54:12 PM
well i am not surprised by this.....i am upset with myself for even allowing any such things to happen[all sin] i hate it...i hate that sin/evil even exists and  i want to be free of ti...for all to be free of this ....despite sin, i was still trying to hang onto him and in trust that he would help me through all the sin, the trials and everything...i only saw him as love and light and he would help me....i had not meant to abuse his grace or love...was blinded in so much...on so many medications for a long time too did not help...

Sweetheart its not your fault !!!     you were misguided    the law of Moses is good it exposes the man of sin in every man    , no  man can know the ways of God
  only the Son of Man    being also the Son of God     
  just as I was also     as so very many of us   were and many  still are in the world even now
  John 9   shows us

  the blind man   healed

   and Jesus   told them this was the reason he come was to  render  /provide or give (a service, help, etc.). judgment

Jesus come to save us   from evil !!!


Spiritual Blindness
35 When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"

36 The man answered, "Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him."

37 "You have seen him," Jesus said, "and he is speaking to you!"

38 "Yes, Lord, I believe!" the man said. And he worshiped Jesus.

39 Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind."

40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?"

41 "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.

  you are right to hate evil  , we all do  I hate it too      , we all hate it  now and  be glad when its  never ever going to exist again  !!   
  our trust is in the HOLY ONE  who can  deliver His creation from evil       
this is what true repentance is all about  sis , you are doing  very well !!     God is good and sees your need , He is faithful as promised !!     we cling to Him  our hope in Him     our all is in Him  only !!

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 10:15:29 PM
i hope he truly has forgiven me then and he will forgive us all in the end....i hurt for the rest of the world who are lost and broken like me or who reject him because they do not get it.... i wish i could know this as truth[cur] and that god truly wishes ALL to be redeemed one day..

  God is good always    sis , and   never fails     He ALONE has purposed it all        for His glory 
all will glorify Him .. we wait on the Lord   sis , Its to  His good pleasure to  give     his  children /flock   His kingdom
   what is  [cur]   ? 

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 10:27:08 PM
cur-christian universal reconciliation....if you end up not being chosen/elect then you end up in the lof....jesus said it was very difficult to lead to life...i have been on the wide road for a long time and am wanting to be with him...he said many will think they are[lord, lord] but even they will be cast away form him...if this bel.ief is wrong then billions of people will suffer for forever with no hope or no love ever....i wish we could know for sure that lof is spiritual and not a lava pit and that people will be able to come out of it and be healed and restored to him....why create so many lives if only to torment forever...maybe he will annihilate and end it....if i cannot be with him, i do not want to exist

Thank you for explaining the cur    LB sis ,

ALL things are in Gods power      , we believe in Him and His word       


      God spoke saying His wrath is but a moment ,, but His mercy endures forever   Psalms  30 


Mourning Turned into Dancing
1A Psalm. — A song of the dedication of the house of David. I exalt Thee, O Jehovah, For Thou hast drawn me up, and hast not let mine enemies rejoice over me.

2Jehovah my God, I have cried to Thee, And Thou dost heal me.

3Jehovah, Thou hast brought up from Sheol my soul, Thou hast kept me alive, From going down [to] the pit.

4Sing praise to Jehovah, ye His saints, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holiness,

5For — a moment [is] in His anger, Life [is] in His good-will, At even remaineth weeping, and at morn singing.

6And I — I have said in mine ease, 'I am not moved — to the age.

7O Jehovah, in Thy good pleasure, Thou hast caused strength to remain for my mountain,' Thou hast hidden Thy face — I have been troubled.

8Unto Thee, O Jehovah, I call, And unto Jehovah I make supplication.

9'What gain [is] in my blood? In my going down unto corruption? Doth dust thank Thee? doth it declare Thy truth?

10Hear, O Jehovah, and favour me, O Jehovah, be a helper to me.'

11Thou hast turned my mourning to dancing for me, Thou hast loosed my sackcloth, And girdest me [with] joy.

12So that honour doth praise Thee, and is not silent, O Jehovah, my God, to the age I thank Thee!

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 18, 2014, 10:47:45 PM
he forgave the prodigal son...he will forgive those who return to him  :HeartThrob:  as seth had written the prodigal was dead but when he returned to god he was forgiven and welcomed home

  Yes  bro  Seth is right , we are all sort of like the prodigal sons  eh!! ?  out in the world   in misery   only to return home  and Know Father was  glad to see   his son again
He makes a very  valid   point sister !! :flowerred:

i will keep researching ur and finding answers to comfort me...i worry for family and friends and everyone

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Worry is the elixir of the spirits opposed to Grace.
They sell the unforgivable sin every chance they get.

Amen, brother. Worry and doubt are simply unbelief or lack of faith.

"Faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed." (Hebrews 11:1)

"By faith are we walking, not by perception." (2 Corinthians 5:7)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/GodAndSatan.html

When we look at ourselves it's hard to believe we are completely forgiven.
But when we look closely at the crucifixion how could we believe anything less.

Quote from: dajomaco on October 19, 2014, 03:39:31 AM
When we look at ourselves it's hard to believe we are completely forgiven.
But when we look closely at the crucifixion how could we believe anything less.

:thumbsup:

Don't forget it again.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/Satan.html

Quote from: lostnbroken on October 19, 2014, 01:59:32 AM
why does god hate???

The Bible says God is love.  Some UR believers say people like Hitler are just another of God's children gone astray, or that God orchestrated it and therefor by implication, that person really isn't "all that bad".  On the other hand, many people who speak against UR say God absolutely can punish people forever, because the Bible says He hates not only the sin, but also actually hates the sinner.

from www.doesgodhate.com

"Does God Hate Anyone?
The answer is an absolute yes.  God certainly hates people... you don't have to take my word for it.  Read the following verses and it's clear to see that God hates people.
Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."
Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."
Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

So, does God hate the sin, but love the people?  Well, yes and no.  God does hate the sin, and he also hates the sinner.  See how the Bible states that [God hates] all who do iniquity.  It doesn't say that God hates all the iniquity that people do... it clearly states that God hates the actual person who does the iniquity (sin)." - www.doesgodhate.com

i keep trying to stay convinced he is love and only wants all to be saved but this seems to say otherwise  ..... how can he say love enemies but hate his own???

None of those verses state how long God hates.
None of those verses states how long punishes the ones He hates.
The answer is that God hate ends soon. The prove can also be found in Psalms.
There are main verses in Psalms praising the mercy of God.
At least part of those mercies are about God re-embracing sinners (under punishment).

God sent His Son to redeem the world. Why would He bother doing that if He hates the whole world? Yeah, He must hate all creation because Romans 3:23 clearly stated all are sinners. It's useless to send Jesus to only save people that haven't sinned. Besides there aren't such people they don't need salvation.

Let's try this, Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it is good and acceptable before God that all men will be saved, so all men will be saved, so there is no unpardonable sin, all sin will be forgiven. Now most certainly all who have sinned will be brought through the fire, refined, and purified. For we know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
1Co 12:3  wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.

Rest in Him........ :dsunny:

 :iagree:

Resting your heart in Grace
Makes it softer.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2014, 06:25:50 AM
Let's try this, Jesus is the Saviour of the world and it is good and acceptable before God that all men will be saved, so all men will be saved, so there is no unpardonable sin, all sin will be forgiven. Now most certainly all who have sinned will be brought through the fire, refined, and purified. For we know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
1Co 12:3  wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus is anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.

Rest in Him........ :dsunny:

:thumbsup:

don't you try too hard to make it on your own strength
that's why Jesus died for you
it's a fight for sure but those who will endure
are those who have learned to trust in Him

you just take a rest in His arms
you just take a rest in His arms
when you trust in Him the world can do no harm
you just take a rest in His arms

we're saved by grace and that not of ourselves
lest anyone of us should boast
it took Jesus' death on Calvary
so why not trust in Him to save your soul

you just take a rest in His arms
you just take a rest in His arms
when you trust in Him the world can do no harm
you just take a rest in His arms

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not competent to be called an apostle, because I persecute the ecclesia of God. Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I--yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Corinthians 15:9,10)

Quote from: Tom on October 19, 2014, 03:53:43 AM
Don't forget it again.

And remember again.

It is a process.  As you continue to remember, it becomes more and more your norm. 

We get gripped with fears that come from deeply held doctrines and we once embraced.  This is how the lord "burns the chafe" in our understanding.

We all still have the chafe to be burned.  It was burned, is being burned, and will one day be completely consumed by the fire of God, and love of God will be shed abroad completely in our heart and hearts.

It is an individual burning and a corporate burning.  I love watching the corporate come together with the fire that has changed the understanding and reversed doctrines that we did not even know that we held.

:flamebreath:

:growingUp:

.

Quote from: ed on October 19, 2014, 05:52:38 PM

Quote from: Tom on October 19, 2014, 03:53:43 AM
Don't forget it again.

And remember again.

It is a process.  As you continue to remember, it becomes more and more your norm. 

We get gripped with fears that come from deeply held doctrines and we once embraced.  This is how the lord "burns the chafe" in our understanding.

We all still have the chafe to be burned.  It was burned, is being burned, and will one day be completely consumed by the fire of God, and love of God will be shed abroad completely in our heart and hearts.

It is an individual burning and a corporate burning.  I love watching the corporate come together with the fire that has changed the understanding and reversed doctrines that we did not even know that we held.

:flamebreath:

:growingUp:

.

   Enter the   Day Light   from faith to  new found   faith in Him  :thumbsup:   do not shrink back into fear  and condemnation   all over again , its by His grace you are saved   or any of us for that matter  , it is the works of the Holy Spirit  , to Gods glory   though Jesus Christ .


16for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.


17For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, 'And the righteous one by faith shall live,'

When I return will I find faith in the earth    . we live by faith in works   of the Living God   to save , its not of ourselves it is the gift !
   we receive  this    gift by faith and its not of ourselves  :flowerred:

 :HeartThrob:  god's love is greater then his hate...his mercy endures forever... i feel like i am in tug-o-war with my spirit and my heart... :bumbrage: 

Even God's hate is for correctional/teaching purposes which originate from love.

Your tug-o-war isn't between your heart and spirit but between you and satan trying to steal the happy Gospel you found on TM....

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2014, 06:34:46 AM
Even God's hate is for correctional/teaching purposes which originate from love.

Your tug-o-war isn't between your heart and spirit but between you and satan trying to steal the happy Gospel you found on TM....

Well said, well said! :dsunny:

Think of the Holy Spirit as God's wife and then call their son a liar and God will forgive you. Now call His wife a liar and see how different the reaction is.

the HS brings us to Christ so rejecting the HS is the blasphemy IMO....by its very nature it cant be forgiven....nobody rejects the Holy Spirit forever.

Quote from: darryl on February 19, 2018, 05:12:47 PM
the HS brings us to Christ so rejecting the HS is the blasphemy IMO....by its very nature it cant be forgiven....nobody rejects the Holy Spirit forever.

hmmmm, interesting analogy !

Quote from: darryl on February 19, 2018, 05:12:47 PM
the HS brings us to Christ so rejecting the HS is the blasphemy IMO....by its very nature it cant be forgiven....nobody rejects the Holy Spirit forever.

   :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
  Yes  Darryl   Amen .
   when the    the Lord  Jesus  Christ   come  in the flesh  literally  , Everyone was locked up  under the same law of sin and death .

  Jesus  testimony  is the Spirit of prophecy that He fulfills  Exactly  ,  and who from Adam  lives ?   none, all  die
  But in Christ  , Gods anointed WORD   all   shall live . because He  alone  is the Lord of the dead and the living .

Because it is GODS   LOVE saving the world  and  though Christ making everything new  .. Col 1
Jesus   breathed the Holy Spirit   upon all flesh  prophecy  and   God / love never fails .
  we  are trusting and waiting  and resting in hope  on God  to finish   His works of old .

any sin confessed can be forgiven

Quote from: rosered on February 19, 2018, 05:46:37 PM

Quote from: darryl on February 19, 2018, 05:12:47 PM
the HS brings us to Christ so rejecting the HS is the blasphemy IMO....by its very nature it cant be forgiven....nobody rejects the Holy Spirit forever.

   :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
  Yes  Darryl   Amen .
   when the    the Lord  Jesus  Christ   come  in the flesh  literally  , Everyone was locked up  under the same law of sin and death .

  Jesus  testimony  is the Spirit of prophecy that He fulfills  Exactly  ,  and who from Adam  lives ?   none, all  die
  But in Christ  , Gods anointed WORD   all   shall live . because He  alone  is the Lord of the dead and the living .

Because it is GODS   LOVE saving the world  and  though Christ making everything new  .. Col 1
Jesus   breathed the Holy Spirit   upon all flesh  prophecy  and   God / love never fails .
  we  are trusting and waiting  and resting in hope  on God  to finish   His works of old .

amen

Quote from: darryl on April 15, 2021, 04:48:15 AM
any sin confessed can be forgiven

Amen, and it?s logical that while insulting the HS/Presence of God it cannot be forgiven (until turned from).
:gsmile:

ALL sin is forgiven cas Jesus died for ALL sin

Quote from: darryl on February 27, 2025, 03:45:13 AM
ALL sin is forgiven cas Jesus died for ALL sin

Amen. So thankful for the process, and though the sin of blaspheming/insulting God?s Spirit cannot be forgiven in this age or in the next.. which will be tHe millennium, a seventh (day/millennium) out of eight.. So forgiven/forgiveness received on the eighth day/aion.
    I think of it as two roles for humanity, saved during this lifetime, oR, saved during the GWT judgment ?day?/aion. And since God assigns the roles as far as salvation goes, I have to think ?correction? and purifying is the same for both roles, both resurrection crowds. Also I think Jesus said, though I think we miss it(?) that ?all those in the tombs/graves will hear God?s voice and will come forth? (from the graves/tombs) ?some into the resurrection of life? ..which I figure is into THE millennium, to serve? called reigning? ..Crown of Life, not metal.. during his long second advent, a full scope version of his so brief first one? ??And some, into the resurrection of (the GWT judgment? ?day? - Jn.5:28-29 - which is part of his second advent) which elsewhere He calls agelasting correction [?kolasin aionion? or ?korrection eonian?] Mt.25:46. Which logically, is the completing of - ?drawing all? - Jn.12:32!
    THE crucible being life as we presently know it - this unavoidable, all important contrast of imperfection, this slow gehenna fade, entropy, that doesn?t quit or reverse.
    The three mentions of lake of fire are at fiery events.. first one done by man, second at the adversary?s final defeat, and then, lastly, at the fiery regenesis - Rev.21:1-5, 2Pet.3:12-13.