I'm in a bible study group back home. When I get a break and go visit family for a time I go to study.
Last night I get this email from a study sister concerning a .Net Christianforum where they've been a member for years.
Seems there was a discussion there questioning the veracity of the trinity.
At that point of discussion many pages in when , if one reads the terms of use at that site questioning trinity, or eternal security in Christ is a violation, it is brought forth that the entire thread/discussion violates those rules. Then it is discovered, as if no member there including my bible study sister , had read the "What we believe", portion of the sites Statement of Faith.
God certainly does open doors and eyes in his own good time. I love that!
Had it not been for this discussion/thread that was actually a violation of the rules for discussion there, and it lasted some 7+ pages before this was discovered, Christian members of this .Net Christian forum would have never known that they were attending a site that published in their Doctrinal Statement (Statement of Faith / Mission Statement) that they sponsor the heresy that is Tritheism! :doh:
"We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable,
and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Notice the contradiction in the initial belief of one God, when reading the latter affirmation of three separate and distinct persons.
A statement that it must be said was not able to be defended by the person in charge of authoring that Doctrinal Statement!
While it does appear the world ,particularly America, is becoming the sequel to Sodom and Gomorrah through the agency of secular law and courts no less, it gives hope that at least on the web Christians that due to their own lack of vigilance in reading Doctrinal Statements of forums they consider joining find after they've joined that they were mistaken in thinking they were members of a forum that honored Jehovah God and Emmanuel. "God with us".
And yet, at the cost of banning a few people who pursued that Doctrinal Statement heresy, many people have found the truth and are moving on. AT least when the world seems like it is going to Hell God finds a way to extricate people from falsehoods that would hope to keep them there under the false banner of Christian forum.
Praise GOD!
Has anyone ever heard of Tritheism before? Or happened on a Christian forum that actually promotes it?
Quote
Tritheism: (http://triunegod.org/heresies/)
The Father, the Son,
and the Spirit are
three separate gods.
HERESY: Tritheism is the belief in three distinct and separate Gods. Though never formally promulgated in the history of Christian doctrine, it is nevertheless held to, at least subconsciously, by many Christians.
..interesting..
Hi Batty ,
I know the site you speak of .
I agree in Gods timing everything changes for the one it was meant to be changed.
The thing about religion to me is , the book of James describes it simply James 1:27 (NASB)
27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this:
to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
This can be taken literally in the natural as well as in the Spiritual sense as well .
Both are works of an earthly glory[ good works under the law ]and a greater works of faith in God and by grace you shall do because I go the Father , John 14:12 ] a heavenly glory to me that does glorify God in both earth and in heaven as One .
I am certain that politics and religion are the very things of the world , Paul emphasizes us NOT to taste , touch or handle .
Because if we are hid in Christ ,we are covered by His mercy over judgment .
We are called to handle the Word of Life with great care and give freely with the same love and care it was given to us without merit because God really is not a respecter of persons , But come all whomsoever will ..
For me making certain rules and expectations demanded to belong to some religious group is taking advantage of the poor in spirit and they desire to glory in their flesh , not realizing that they are also naked before God and as poor and in need of healing also ..
The scriptures tells us , there is not need for a man to teach you after the works of the law is complete when you come to Christ than will the Holy Spirit and fire , dwell within you teaching you , correcting you , chastening you , making you new and purifying and making a holy thing ready to be presented before God , they are able to stand boldly before the throne of grace before their heavenly Father and what ever they ask in Jesus name it will be granted to them ..
The prayers of a righteous man , made righteous because of faith in Jesus whom has called them out of the world and made them ready to serve the Living God , and the prayers of a righteous man avails much ... not missing the mark /sin , but is called to do as the FATHER has given them power to overcome the world and do those greater works He promised to complete /perfect to the end .
Being the author and finisher of our faith in God ..
It is the Word and Spirit of TRUTH that judges the world that lies in wickedness . literately laying down in it and also promoting falsity , the truth is a two edged sword .
God and the Holy Spirit are the only beings in Ge:1 and the way Adam was made was as a married couple and having 20 fingers and toes so that is two traits rather than two aspects of a single trait. Ge:1 is God's witness to Creation and since the Ge:2 version is through adam's eyes it would be the witness of the Holt Spitit about how the garden was created in the 6th day.
Christ's witness is in these verses,the whole chapter is why He alone is qualified to judge what has gone on earth since it was first created.
Proverb:8:22-36:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
I believe the first verse below shows that God and Christ are two individual beings.
1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him
The heaven in the verse below is the 3rd heaven and only those 3 have come from there so far. That 3rd heaven is also the location of the new heaven for the 2/3 of angels that did not fall and in the verse below they stay there, men that are there are the ones that were alive for the 1,000 year reign so they have been perfected when they get there.
1Jo:5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father,
the Word,
and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Hebrews:12:22-23:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The verse below is often used as some sort of support but the context is all wrong.
John the Baptist was called by God in the same way all OT prophets were called into service. As such he is like any other Scribe in that he identifies who the is the author of the message he begins,in this case as in Ge:1:1 as that is 'the beginning'. 'God said' is mentioned in that chapter and each time the result was the Holy Spirit made reality out of the words. As part of the way that Christ fulfills both parts of the bruises mentioned in Ge:3:15 He is give permission to say some words and the same Holy Spirit will make reality out of the words. Jesus is mentioned later so He doesn't have to be part of any previous verse.
John:1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
John:1:7-9:
The same came for a witness,
to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light,
but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Quoteand manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Yeah, a lot of people make this mistake, they read the archaic word 'persons' and confuse it with the word 'people' as if people are claiming that Christianity worships three different beings and thus has three gods. This isn't is. The following definition appears closest to the one being used here:
"A role or character assumed in real life, or in a play, etc.; a part, function, or office; a persona; a semblance or guise. Hence: any of the characters in a play or story." (O.E.D.)
The obvious issue at state here is the relationship between the agencies known in the Bible as 'the Father', 'Jesus Christ' and 'the'Holy Spirit'. Since the Bible confirms the existence of all three no-one one can seriously deny them, so the only question left is which of them are God?
I think everyone accepts the the term 'Father' means 'God' therefore the only dispute is whether Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God.
This is an important point because the Bible records that Jesus declares that:
'"And I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son of man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God."' (Luke 12:8-9)
which is concerning because if Jesus is God and you deny this it's highly probable that you will find yourself in the second category.
But that's the question is only the Father, God, perhaps only two of them, or indeed all three of them.
Well that the Spirit called 'Holy' would suggest that He is God since this epithet only properly belongs to God.
So is Jesus Christ, God. Well, yes the Bible states that He is on numerous occasions.
On top of this the Jesus also states that:
'"And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."' (Luke 12:10)
Now since correctly used the term 'blasphemy' only applies to a maligning of God it must here be concluded that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God.
But that creates the problem that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity appears necessary to solve. It appears that since Paul says:
'Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.' (Philippians 2:5-7)
Being equal to God is obviously identical to being God but Jesus denied He was equal to God (the Father) on several occasions. How, well clearly in the manner Paul describes. But Jesus Christ is God, as the Bible teaches.
Similarly as Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father He also suggest that the Holy Spirit is also somehow different from God the Father whom He proceeds from. Yet again He is obviously God.
This is why the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been formulated. The Bible clearly teaches that all three agencies are God yet also teaches that each one is somehow different from the other, three persons of God equal yet different, when, since the Bible teaches monotheism, they must be the same being.
MHz, you have said in a post on your introduction that it is your belief that the Bible should be taken absolutely literally unless it specifically says it's your reading a parable or vision. Ignoring the fact this ignores the fact that it is imposing modern interpretive techniques on a Hebrew text (Hebrews didn't think like that) this is the interpretation that leads to the necessary doctrine of the Trinity, any literal reading of the Bible clearly teaches that all three Person are God, yet also teaches that all three Persons are some how distinct from each other. Since there is only one God this is clearly a contradiction yet the Bible teaches both positions.
The doctrine of the Trinity has been formulated to attempt to resolve this problem, it exists to avoid the trap of Tritheism not support it. There are some disputes about how the doctrine of the Trinity should be understood, but to deny it completely is to deny things the Bible very obviously says.
God's body..has many members[heavenly hosts] Jesus is the right arm that works salvation..the Holy spirit the left arm.all members of God's body are one with Him..He
is the head. I and the Father are one...Ipray Father that they may be one,inunion. God will be all in all. Rev 11;19 Then God's temple in Heaven was opened[He opens
Hisbodyto recieve us as His body members/entering Holy of Holies] and within His temple was seen the ark of His covenant. :2c:
Quote from: sheila on February 20, 2018, 05:44:57 PM
God's body..has many members[heavenly hosts] Jesus is the right arm that works salvation..the Holy spirit the left arm.all members of God's body are one with Him..He
is the head. I and the Father are one...Ipray Father that they may be one,inunion. God will be all in all. Rev 11;19 Then God's temple in Heaven was opened[He opens
Hisbodyto recieve us as His body members/entering Holy of Holies] and within His temple was seen the ark of His covenant. :2c:
Who is the most important person to Adam. The only two beings in Ge:1 are God and the Holy Spirit. Image and likeness means they are5-fingered like God and the Holy Spirit are and they have the same relationship that Adam and Eve had, married.
Ge:1:26:
And God said,
Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27:
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
Ge:2:24:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother,
and shall cleave unto his wife:
and they shall be one flesh.
God and the Holy Spirit and Christ all come from the 3rd heaven. That is the new heaven that is promised to angels and men see it as that is where Judgment Day takes place.
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
In the 'pluck your eye' verses a body is the whole congregation you belong to and 1Cor:5 would be the core teaching. They are not resurrected for life in the 1,000 years. if you are eating with them on the day of the return you will lose your place and be resurrected at the end of the the 1,000 year reign rather than at the start of it.
Lu:6:46:
And why call ye me,
Lord,
Lord,
and do not the things which I say?
The longer post will take a bit longer to reply to.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Quoteand manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Put on a Lawyer's cap and read this verse and determine how many individuals are involved.
1Co:15:27:
For he hath put all things under his feet.
But when he saith all things are put under him,
it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Yeah, a lot of people make this mistake, they read the archaic word 'persons' and confuse it with the word 'people' as if people are claiming that Christianity worships three different beings and thus has three gods. This isn't is. The following definition appears closest to the one being used here:
This is how my 'confusion ' came about.
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Jo:5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father,
the Word,
and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
M'r:9:7:
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them:
and a voice came out of the cloud,
saying,
This is my beloved Son:
hear him.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
"A role or character assumed in real life, or in a play, etc.; a part, function, or office; a persona; a semblance or guise. Hence: any of the characters in a play or story." (O.E.D.)
Add in the terms, immortal, sinless, perfect, and 'belong to the same family' and in the 3 heavens mentioned who fits the list?
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
The obvious issue at state here is the relationship between the agencies known in the Bible as 'the Father', 'Jesus Christ' and 'the'Holy Spirit'. Since the Bible confirms the existence of all three no-one one can seriously deny them, so the only question left is which of them are God?
The father is just like Adam is the head of the family. For instance the husband is allowed to talk about Scripture when in Church as he is the head. The wife is to listen only. The other 6 days when they are not in church she can talk as much as she wants. Adam would let you insult Cain over the murder of his brother. If you insulted Eve he would kill you on the spot, calling the Holy Spirit a liar will bring that sort of action from God. The false throne and Satan claiming it is the real throne is the only time that happens and Satan is toasted from this earth right then and there.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
I think everyone accepts the the term 'Father' means 'God' therefore the only dispute is whether Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are also God.
Teacher is a good term to use as all the bad things and all the good things Jesus does on the day of the return was taught to Him by God in the OT. Moses's plagues allow Him to purs out the 7 vials. Seeing Sodom get melted is how He melts Satan's Babylon in just 1 hour.
Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
This is an important point because the Bible records that Jesus declares that:
There are no unimportant verses in the Bible. They all mesh with at least 2 other verses so that is our task, find the ones that match in context.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
'"And I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son of man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; but he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God."' (Luke 12:8-9)
Obviously year 1,000 year crowd has done that or they would be there. When you read the chastisement part in Hebrews:12 that is reading about what the people at Judgement Day experience. Based in that bit of the passage how many would you say endure it to the end??
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
which is concerning because if Jesus is God and you deny this it's highly probable that you will find yourself in the second category.
It is a catch-22 situation which means it has no place as a teaching in a real world.
1Th:5:21:
Prove all things;
hold fast that which is good.
Quick example. The rain that fell on the high hills and mountain tops was the same 22.5 ft that fell on all the land yet it stayed there for 150 days. Was it magic or was the air a bit colder and it fell as snow and the 150 days it took to melt how mant feet of snow 22.5 ft of rain will make. One is 'reasonable' and the other belong in never, never land as in Metalica and the song sandman, the one I'm listening to migtht now. lol
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
But that's the question is only the Father, God, perhaps only two of them, or indeed all three of them.
Think of the 3rd heaven like this. Today angels inhabit the 2nd heaven and thy might be immortal but they are still less than perfect as God did not give them the traits that Adam an Eve had that would have made them perfect parents and perfect shepherds to the flesh they had dominion over. Ge:6 shows it was a disaster. The ones that did not sin end up in their promised new heaven, Mount Sion and they stay there as perfected beings. That would mean they could be given in marriage and the child they had would be born perfected so no danger of a child ending up in the lake of fire.
If it helps the flesh they were given dominion over comes from some beings from the 3rd heaven as well. Since there are 4 they represent the 'parents' of God and the 'parents' of the Holy Spirit and that makes Christ their 'grandchild'
Re:4:7:
And the first beast was like a lion,
and the second beast like a calf,
and the third beast had a face as a man,
and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Well that the Spirit called 'Holy' would suggest that He is God since this epithet only properly belongs to God.
God is holy so anything in His sight is also holy or it ends up going away, far, far away. (The war in Re:12)
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
So is Jesus Christ, God. Well, yes the Bible states that He is on numerous occasions.
No, He is the child of God and the Holy Spirit. They created the universe as an inheritance for their son. Mary of Bethany, aka Beloved Disciple of John the Baptist will be His wife starting when the new earth era starts. The rest of mankind is invited to the wedding rather than anybody else is 'the bride' or the 'wife'.
M't:21:38:
But when the husbandmen saw the son,
they said among themselves,
This is the heir;
come,
let us kill him,
and let us seize on his inheritance.
M't:25:34:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,
Come,
ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
On top of this the Jesus also states that:
'"And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."' (Luke 12:10)
A warning from a son about calling His mother a liar in front of his Father is not a good idea and the punishment is forever with no possibility of forgiveness.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Now since correctly used the term 'blasphemy' only applies to a maligning of God it must here be concluded that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God.
The Holy Spirit is about truth. The throne in Re:4 and in New Jerusalem is how she makes her appearance in those two places. Satan builds a false one of these and threatens people with death if they will not worship it.
Re:4:5:
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne,
which are the seven Spirits of God.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
But that creates the problem that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity appears necessary to solve. It appears that since Paul says:
'Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.' (Philippians 2:5-7)
M't:26:39:
And he went a little further,
and fell on his face,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if it be possible,
let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will,
but as thou wilt.
M't:26:42:
He went away again the second time,
and prayed,
saying,
O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me,
except I drink it,
thy will be done.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Being equal to God is obviously identical to being God but Jesus denied He was equal to God (the Father) on several occasions. How, well clearly in the manner Paul describes. But Jesus Christ is God, as the Bible teaches.
The is a transition from having no power to being able to have 'mom' act as the angel of death and kill 2/3 of the people that are alive because they are sinners.
Isa:55:11:
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Similarly as Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father He also suggest that the Holy Spirit is also somehow different from God the Father whom He proceeds from. Yet again He is obviously God.
Husband and wife and both have 5-fingers rather than 6.
Ge:1:26:
And God said,
Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle,
and over all the earth,
and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27:
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
Ge:2:24:
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother,
and shall cleave unto his wife:
and they shall be one flesh.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
This is why the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been formulated. The Bible clearly teaches that all three agencies are God yet also teaches that each one is somehow different from the other, three persons of God equal yet different, when, since the Bible teaches monotheism, they must be the same being.
Really?
If that were true there would be no debate about it.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
MHz, you have said in a post on your introduction that it is your belief that the Bible should be taken absolutely literally unless it specifically says it's your reading a parable or vision. Ignoring the fact this ignores the fact that it is imposing modern interpretive techniques on a Hebrew text (Hebrews didn't think like that) this is the interpretation that leads to the necessary doctrine of the Trinity, any literal reading of the Bible clearly teaches that all three Person are God, yet also teaches that all three Persons are some how distinct from each other. Since there is only one God this is clearly a contradiction yet the Bible teaches both positions.
Do a word search of the OR for the term 'GOD' and each and everyone with pint to 'a one true God' who has the Holy Spirit as the same kind of helper that Eve was for Adam. God's witness to creation is in Ge:2. There version ind Ge:2 is specific to the garden area of eden and it is through the eyes of Adam so it is the witness of the Holy Spirit. The verses below are from a chapter that shows why Christ is the only being to be qualified to judge angels as well as all of mankind.
Proverb:8:22-36:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
Quote from: CST on February 20, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
The doctrine of the Trinity has been formulated to attempt to resolve this problem, it exists to avoid the trap of Tritheism not support it. There are some disputes about how the doctrine of the Trinity should be understood, but to deny it completely is to deny things the Bible very obviously says.
It exists to show there has been a 'falling away from the truth' that has to happen before the return can happen. The actually falling away was done by Rome as it went with a Latin Bible instead of the text they had in 300AD. The 'little horn' verses in Da:8 cover Rome's whole 500 year period.
They would probably prefer to keep that swept under the rug for obvious reasons.
Hmm, it frequently surprises me how people on here can quote reams and reams of text with little qualification or explanation and seem to expect the parties they're in discussion with to understand it as they do without any special explanation when obviously they so far read it differently.
So I will try a different tac, taking the argument from the start but presenting it (for as much as is reasonably possible) as if I've never read the Bible before and don't know any of the terms. So John 1:
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3)
This check introduces an agency called 'The Word' which existed at a period called 'In The Beginning' (something familiar about that). It also tells us there was a being called 'God' who was also 'In The Beginning' it describes the relationship between these two being very strangely, first it it says that the two beings are in company with each other and that it says that the first being was, in fact, so they are the same being: God and 'The Word' are the very same thing. It then says that 'The Word' is a 'He'.
On your theory then God would be 'God' and the Holy Spirit would be 'The Word' because they were the only things to exist 'In The Beginning'. Of course, you'd also have to cede that the Holy Spirit is male (He) and is clearly God since The Word is equivalent to God. So, to continue:
"4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." (John 1:4-5)
This is another important statement (yes, I know everything's important but for the purposes of this discussion we need to isolate some items), it says that life was in The Word and that 'the life was the light of men' this, to be honest does mean much at present (feigning ignorance again) but comes into its own later. At this point I'll drop the ignorance mask for a moment and skip over the bit about 'John' because, so far as I know, no-one thinks John is God.
"9 The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. 11 He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:9-13)
It's interesting how this passage continues so neatly from where the skip was there, verses 6-8, could perhaps be put in parentheses. Anyhow these verses tell how this agency (called The Word) came into the world, which it tells us He made in case you missed it the first time, and some mysterious stuff that is highly highly important but not pertinent to the evidence I am using it this discussion and which I can't discuss while wearing the mask of ignorance.
"14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'") 16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." (John 1:14-18)
At this point I have to drop my mask of ignorance because at this point 'The Word' clearly means Jesus Christ even though the name isn't mentioned here (except in relation to Moses, another reason for the need to drop the mask), the Father didn't become flesh and live among us, did He? Nor did the Holy Spirit. It says here that it is the Son, who is the Word, who is God became flesh and made the Father known.
It clearly says this, the English is pretty clear that the Word is God and equally clear that it is also the Son who we know to be Jesus, John teaches how teaches how Jesus is God in countless ways. It one of those strange things how you can read things in Bible passages that seem obviously to be there but which other people don't see at all.
Quote from: CST on February 21, 2018, 07:58:59 PM
It one of those strange things how you can read things in Bible passages that seem obviously to be there but which other people don't see at all.
You said it!
Quote
so far as I know, no-one thinks John is God.
...we're living in strange times..
:2c: my pov...there is only God....He has the ability to speak/word/breath...and bring forth from His being and substance. when He does this..in whatever form His will
desires it will come forth from Him and be sent sent forth.Jerusalem above is our Mother...as is Wisdom fromAbove"what God has spoke into existence and birthed/brought
forth from himself.our very breath..the Lord's anointed=the breath/word that God bring's forth.
the Lamb was slain before the foundingofthe world...at God'stime this 'word of God "come in flesh and was born of woman under the law.Mary becamepregnabt by holy spirit
[Gabriel sent forth with the'word'Mt1;18Mt 1;20begotton by holy spirit.Mt 3;16 heaven opened spiritofGod descending like adove.."this is my sonwith himI amwellpleased
in allthe above..God brings forth His word regarding this 'son'come inflesh..in all Jesus ministry words and actions He spoke only what the Father give him to speak
and always didwhat pleasedthe Father..the Father did His works through this son.
whether God brings forth from Himself,Mother,Jerusalem above,angels,newJerusalem,universe,heavenly hosts,the 'word of God'come in flesh etc it will come into being.
try and speak'word'without breath going forth from you. He breathed on them. God's breath is spirit that comes from His substance and manifests whatever He spoke
into being.Prophecy is God's breath and spirit 'word' bringing forth that word of God"He has spoken
God is ALL there is..and Godmust be all in all..and in Him too we live and have our being. the whole creation,both old and new..is a manifestation of Him bringing forth into
existence from Himself/His very substance.. the very chair you sit on..is there because He brought forth this creation..and us from His spiritsubstance into being.
and Godismuch much more than the seen and unseen..the universe even can not contain Him. :2c: GOD IS ALL..and He must be all in all.
Tritheism is believing in 3 separate gods while Trinitarianism is believing in 1 being God in 3 distinctive persons(Father,Son and Spirit).
Tritheism is a charge that Unitarians Monotheists such as Muslims,Jews and JW's throw at Trinitarians but it's a false charge as we don't believe in 3 gods but 1 God who in the revelation of the Incarnation and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has been revealed as 3 distinctive persons.
Yes, but it's also seems to be the charge being levelled at believers in the Trinity on this thread. They simply don't understand the distinction between the three 'persons' in the Godhead and, as MHz makes clear don't believe it is supported by Bible. While I have tried to show above that people who do believe it hold that it can be the only proper interpretation (so far as we can understand) of some of the more confusing passages in the Bible text.
The inability of people who reject the concept of the Trinity to understand it is hardly surprising, it's part of the mystery of God who is beyond proper understanding anyway.
About a decade and a half ago I was in an English Literature class and, for reasons I forget, it was mentioned that the standard Christian belief that Jesus was God. In an example of an error I sometimes make in believing accuracy is identical to truth I felt the need to point of that not all parties who would call themselves Christian believe this.
It seemed fair enough at the time but ever since have had reason to believe that God was not pleased with this response on my part which could only serve to confuse the class and I regret saying it and no longer feel I can stand by and simply accept the idea of people who wrongly claim that Jesus isn't God when He clearly is.
I have no issue with anyone believing in the trinity. But beware of it's history. Trinity predates Christianity by several millennia. Nimrod is the origin of the trinity concept. (and easter)
That said it seems to be untrue the Jews never believed in a binity or trinity
Click (https://www.google.nl/search?num=100&safe=active&client=firefox-b-ab&dcr=0&ei=6yeQWoLLFMKeU5CiufgE&q=michael+heiser+trinity&oq=mi&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1l2j0i67k1j0i20i263k1j0l6.1194397.1194647.0.1197731.2.2.0.0.0.0.225.415.0j1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.413...46j0i46k1.0.AEM1QPlGdqM)
I have some stuff of the same author on the same topic in ebook format. All I will say, I'm still not utterly convinced by it.
I started with warning that it's fact there are (also) super pagan trinities. I end with this. Read this super pagan 'article' and see if you can spot what we all firmly believe and agree with. Just saying concepts found in paganism not necessarily destroy similar Christian concepts Click (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/hel%20with%201%20l.htm)
Thinking about "trinity" gives me kind of a headache.. :mock: But I figure its simply in the verses.. So I think, or figure I know, Father and Son are both Two, and One.. Not a panthenon of 'gods'.. and not a two or three headed 'god'... But Father and Son..
Was that the right link, WW? It's the "Hel" link.. (You said "see if you can spot what we all firmly believe and agree with" - which I was interested in reading :gsmile: )
The hell link.
Especially the last few lines.
Nosk hell will be emptied at the end of times.
Same for Christian hell, when Jesus defeats death and empties the graves.
The patheon of gods does have some support.
But thats what you think a god is.
Let me start with saying there is only one Supreme God. Yaweh. Or perhaps 3 for the trinity folks.
The patheon is 70 +1. 70 original nations.
When reading some verses the dead on the other side can be seen as gods.
But that hard to explain.
To overly simplify, here are humans on the other side gods. Like a species.
But it's not like greeks with a zillion warrior gods.
So while it at may look a bit like I'm promoting a multi god something I'm absolutely not.
It is so confusing :Oops: :CryBaby: :blah: :blahgreen: like the 3 musketeers it is all for One and One for all .. jk some worldly humor . but all joking aside .
There is only ONE GOD your doing good , HE ALONE IS THE SPIRIT OF LIFE , There is no Life separate from God , HE ALONE IS THAT SOURCE AND POWER , can it really be this simple ? Even His breath gives Life to the the Word or it is dead also , this Word of God is called Jesus Christ under heaven , this name is the power to save and it written as His Son and Offspring from a pure Heart of GOD and sent into the world as a witness of truth against the lies
What good is a dead witness laying in street until the Powerful breath of God raises it up again to Life ?
The Word teaches us even how to believe in the Spirit or breath of God .. so many claims , I do believe earthly wisdom is flat out foolishness to God it has been this mixing of earthly wisdom and heavenly wisdom that has created all these vile doctrines demons , they tremble at Gods power , they believe in God , a whole lot wiser than atheist that are just DEAD and void of all understanding and know nothing of the TRUE AND LIVING GOD still the UNKNOWN GOD and may keep them in the dark at this earthly time for their own sake ...
and religion [ the greatest whore of the earth full of sexual immorality of every sort and kind creating offspring with all her lovers , made these doctrines of demons [ daughters of men ] they mention this in the WORD of GOD , Genesis 6:1-5
"When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive.
And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." [this is the law of Moses and ministration of death ]
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." — Genesis 6:1-5 we have Gen 11 showing us exactly how they operate
Adam was a son of God , He was also a king of the earth because God gave him dominion over it all , does not satan a spirit in a man also have power over the kingdoms of the world in Jesus temptation in the Wilderness , I see this spirit in a man being adversarial against the Spirit of God , So when God removes His HOLY ONE SPIRIT out of a man , Like our example Saul was , it made Him a murderer , there was no love in Him for anything good ... same with Cain there was no love in him for anything good , just power to destroy anything in its path but this rebellious spirit continued to create its own everything ........... governments and religions and families etc .... a carnal and beastly mind that war against and that are an enemy to the Holy Spirit , the only true God and witness than can swear by nothing greater than HIMSELF .
the territory of a sovereign or government.
synonyms: dependency, colony, protectorate, territory, province, possession; historical tributary as lords and kings of the earthly and temporal things in this life of chaos of complete disorder and confusion.
"snow caused chaos in the region"
synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom
PHYSICS
behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
the formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe.
But we have proof , that there was no evil in Gods garden , no mention of Satan till one ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil making one wise in their own eyes and tempt with PRIDE of life by doing good and evil mixing and this is the source to me , the serpent was only the tempter and origin of sin / error by a LIE that rebels against the Truth . God never tempts anything GOD IS LOVE ..
Faith and Works
...18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
ONLY GOD IS GOOD and the witnesses declare it in the heavenly court system when we are judged by the Word and Sprint of Life if we obey His commands which is to Love unconditionally as He does , this how you are in or out by His grace upon you , because we try and fail and ask Him and seek Him and knock being born again of faith in HIM , without Him you can do nothing
I have two sort of friends whom are atheist :sigh: on FB and these gals lives are a witness when they mock God with foolish wisdom that is earthy sensual and devilish , cruel lacking love but make war against Her , but it is mostly against RELIGIOUS BABYLON and poke fun at the hypocrisy :sigh: but I have considered it is not the Spirit of God working in them because they hate so much of everything :sigh: they judge everything by their own standards and leave no room for GOD whatsoever ,,,
What can I do but pray for them that His Spirit will enter them and bind that strong man of the house /spirit in a man ? if you try and say a word it only makes things worse not better .. hate is a divider
Can a person really hate LOVE ? GOD IS LOVE and that is not just the warm and fuzzy feely kind either , seems mankind does thrive on strong emotional expression eats it up and can be a weakness all those descriptive actions of hate , strife , malice , lust desire pride come from the spirit in a man/satan to need more and more power like villains and superheros in action movies play acting of good and evil forces at work :2c:
19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder! 20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?...
Do we really think we are going to do any good at all without the Spirit of GOD working in us and for us ? can our own spirit save us ? is it Adams wisdom that keeps Him ? God gave him that power [breath ] as temporary as it is to prove himself says in the WORD this law that no man keeps all the law ever . so we become debtors and this court of Law where Jesus is our mediator and with Mercy and Live ,or the law of Moses without mercy put to death , we have no other help on our own , He is the lawyer /law giver and Judge and fulfills all the law as the word judges us .
Deuteronomy 6:4
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
Matthew 8:29
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have You come here to torture us before the proper time?"
Mark 1:24
"What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"
Mark 5:7
And he shouted in a loud voice, "What do You want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God not to torture me."
How does Jesus torturer a demon ???? why would a demon beg Jesus to not torture him ? Is it with Holy SPIRIT & fire ,when He come back in Full authority after the cross and breathes on us ??? GOD GAVE HIM FULL POWER and Authority over heaven and earth an below , we read in His Word His breath is a fire is it not a purifier that destroys evil in His presence ?
Mark 12:29
Jesus replied, "This is the most important: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord,
We have can even have deeper thoughts of what it means when first is the Lord over all the lords ever been or to come or ever was [ masters rulers ]and devils over our bodies and being slaves to them desires .
and first and foremost KING of kings of the earth ever and ALL power given to Him by GOD HIMSELF
over the dead and living ... He alone will be able to raise the dead because He Alone is the Resurrection Life the FATHER gave him this power over DEATH to save By His own blood / life in the blood and covering for sin and keep ALIVE by the Spirit of LIFE ITSELF as many are joined with HIM on a daily basis but there is a dead sea to consider also where they are held till Christ comes to save as those joined with Him already .
Till the sea is no more
A LIVING WORD that everything new is created by and for and though Rev 21 A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....
GOD OF THE LIVING ,all Live to Him after Jesus has put every last enemy under His feet the last being DEATH itself ...
no more sea .no more death ever :dsunny: God will be all in ALL some Joy and peace finally in waiting on the Lord :HeartThrob:
Hey all, it has been awhile since I responded in this. I wanted to thank everyone for their time in replying. All very good points.
I was recently banned from a Christianchat site as they accused me of Oneness in a thread someone started questioning the Trinity. A topic I found was a bannable topic but the Mod's let it stand. Then they banned anyone that pointed out the scriptures that don't comport with that idea.
There is so much debate and strong feelings about the Trinity. I believe it is beyond our mind's ability to truly grasp the concept of how God can be 3, yet still one. So, in a small hole, we attempt to fit the ocean. (see below) I don't believe any of us can fully grasp how the unity of God, still allows for individuality.
So, we exchange thoughts, get upset with others, and wrestle with the concept, until someone is banned from discussing it, often times.
The Human Condition. Not easy. :dunno2:
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/religiousimages/H065_Seashell.jpg
Augustine and the Seashell
[/b]
Marian Horvat
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
St Augustine with the boy on the beach
Augustine meets a boy on the beach
He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, "My boy, what are doing?"
"I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole," the boy replied with a sweet smile.
"But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water" said Augustine.
The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, "It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence."
The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.
Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.
Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology.
This painting of St. Augustine is part of the outside murals in the Augustinian monastery of Quito, Ecuador. It was done by Miguel de Santiago in 1656.
D.
I was raised on Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Then, I read in the Bible that there are SEVEN Spirits of God.
???????
So, I thought, it's Father + Son + Seven Spirits = Nine.
Great thoughts Dandelion. :) Thank you.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 06, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
I was raised on Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Then, I read in the Bible that there are SEVEN Spirits of God.
???????
So, I thought, it's Father + Son + Seven Spirits = Nine.
:eek: That would have made those at the other board I was member of implode from the shock of that kind of math derived from the scriptures. :laugh:
When light goes through a prism, it refracts into 7 colors. Are there 7 lights? or 7 elements of one light? Is that worth arguing about? Maybe, as long as one is polite about it. :laughing7:
Quote from: Dandelion on August 06, 2018, 12:17:12 PM
There is so much debate and strong feelings about the Trinity. I believe it is beyond our mind's ability to truly grasp the concept of how God can be 3, yet still one. So, in a small hole, we attempt to fit the ocean. (see below) I don't believe any of us can fully grasp how the unity of God, still allows for individuality.
So, we exchange thoughts, get upset with others, and wrestle with the concept, until someone is banned from discussing it, often times.
The Human Condition. Not easy. :dunno2:
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/religiousimages/H065_Seashell.jpg
Augustine and the Seashell
[/b]
Marian Horvat
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
St Augustine with the boy on the beach
Augustine meets a boy on the beach
He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, "My boy, what are doing?"
"I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole," the boy replied with a sweet smile.
"But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water" said Augustine.
The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, "It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence."
The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.
Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.
Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology.
This painting of St. Augustine is part of the outside murals in the Augustinian monastery of Quito, Ecuador. It was done by Miguel de Santiago in 1656.
D.
Why didn't the small boy teach Augustine that ET was baloney? I have to imagine that is because Augustine had already come to his own (wrong) conclusions about that.
Quote from: CST on August 13, 2018, 01:15:07 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on August 06, 2018, 12:17:12 PM
There is so much debate and strong feelings about the Trinity. I believe it is beyond our mind's ability to truly grasp the concept of how God can be 3, yet still one. So, in a small hole, we attempt to fit the ocean. (see below) I don't believe any of us can fully grasp how the unity of God, still allows for individuality.
So, we exchange thoughts, get upset with others, and wrestle with the concept, until someone is banned from discussing it, often times.
The Human Condition. Not easy. :dunno2:
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/religiousimages/H065_Seashell.jpg
Augustine and the Seashell
[/b]
Marian Horvat
The great Doctor of the Church St. Augustine of Hippo spent over 30 years working on his treatise De Trinitate [about the Holy Trinity], endeavoring to conceive an intelligible explanation for the mystery of the Trinity.
St Augustine with the boy on the beach
Augustine meets a boy on the beach
He was walking by the seashore one day contemplating and trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity when he saw a small boy running back and forth from the water to a spot on the seashore. The boy was using a sea shell to carry the water from the ocean and place it into a small hole in the sand.
The Bishop of Hippo approached him and asked, "My boy, what are doing?"
"I am trying to bring all the sea into this hole," the boy replied with a sweet smile.
"But that is impossible, my dear child, the hole cannot contain all that water" said Augustine.
The boy paused in his work, stood up, looked into the eyes of the Saint, and replied, "It is no more impossible than what you are trying to do – comprehend the immensity of the mystery of the Holy Trinity with your small intelligence."
The Saint was absorbed by such a keen response from that child, and turned his eyes from him for a short while. When he glanced down to ask him something else, the boy had vanished.
Some say that it was an Angel sent by God to teach Augustine a lesson on pride in learning. Others affirm it was the Christ Child Himself who appeared to the Saint to remind him of the limits of human understanding before the great mysteries of our Faith.
Through this story, the sea shell has become a symbol of St. Augustine and the study of theology.
This painting of St. Augustine is part of the outside murals in the Augustinian monastery of Quito, Ecuador. It was done by Miguel de Santiago in 1656.
D.
Why didn't the small boy teach Augustine that ET was baloney? I have to imagine that is because Augustine had already come to his own (wrong) conclusions about that.
Extracted from:
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
By J.W. HANSON, D. D.
Augustine's Acknowledgment.
QuoteAugustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ. 3 Hitherto, even in the West, it had been an open question whether the punishment hereafter of sin unrepented of and not forsaken was to be endless. Augustine has left on record the fact that some, indeed very many, still fell back upon the mercy and love of God as a ground of hope for the ultimate restoration of humanity 4 he is the first writer to undertake a long and elaborate defense of the doctrine of endless punishment, and to wage a polemic against its impugners. He rallies the 'tender-hearted Christians,' as he calls them, who cannot accept it." About 420 he speaks of his "merciful brethren," 5 or party of pity, among the orthodox Christians, who advocate the salvation of all, and he challenges them, like Origen, to advocate also the redemption of the devil and his angels. Thus though the virus of Roman Paganism was extending, the truth of the Gospel was yet largely held. And it was the immense power Augustine came to wield that so dominated the church that it afterwards stamped out the doctrine of universal salvation.
The theological battling has been going on for a long time indeed! I believe that, one day when theological sensibilities are more adapted to the powerful underlying
workings of the Holy Spirit, and a better
understanding of the Christ Who is Love is given to the would-be followers of Jesus, then Love shall enter the collective consciousness in Christendom in such a powerful way that the doctrine of endless punishment will become as much a part of history in the way that public executions were once a form of entertainment. But that time is not yet as I understand it, much, much cleansing must happen first, and also awareness that there is a spiritual reckoning of sorts must also rise, indeed that there is a life after physical death - and more. Peace
Quote from: eaglesway on August 12, 2018, 05:54:31 AM
When light goes through a prism, it refracts into 7 colors. Are there 7 lights? or 7 elements of one light? Is that worth arguing about? Maybe, as long as one is polite about it. :laughing7:
Really interesting question. :dsunny: It could have a lot to do with those 7 spirits of God that the
Isaiah 11 (https://www.studylight.org/interlinear-bible/isaiah/11.html)scripture speaks about.
God is the God of lights as scripture also tells us.
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
(https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Is-Light)
Spirit (https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/hebrew/07307.html)
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force
Quote from: eaglesway on August 12, 2018, 05:54:31 AM
When light goes through a prism, it refracts into 7 colors. Are there 7 lights? or 7 elements of one light? Is that worth arguing about? Maybe, as long as one is polite about it. :laughing7:
Oh man I
love that! I'm going to try to remember it! maybe I can use it one day... :gsmile:
Quote from: lastpost on August 13, 2018, 10:54:21 PM
Extracted from:
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
By J.W. HANSON, D. D.
Augustine's Acknowledgment.
QuoteAugustine brought his theology with him from Manichæism when he became a Christian, only he added perpetuity to the dualism that Mani made temporal. "The doctrine of endless punishment assumed in the writings of Augustine a prominence and rigidity which had no parallel in the earlier history of theology and which savors of the teaching of Mohammed more than of Christ. 3 Hitherto, even in the West, it had been an open question whether the punishment hereafter of sin unrepented of and not forsaken was to be endless. Augustine has left on record the fact that some, indeed very many, still fell back upon the mercy and love of God as a ground of hope for the ultimate restoration of humanity 4 he is the first writer to undertake a long and elaborate defense of the doctrine of endless punishment, and to wage a polemic against its impugners. He rallies the 'tender-hearted Christians,' as he calls them, who cannot accept it." About 420 he speaks of his "merciful brethren," 5 or party of pity, among the orthodox Christians, who advocate the salvation of all, and he challenges them, like Origen, to advocate also the redemption of the devil and his angels. Thus though the virus of Roman Paganism was extending, the truth of the Gospel was yet largely held. And it was the immense power Augustine came to wield that so dominated the church that it afterwards stamped out the doctrine of universal salvation.
The theological battling has been going on for a long time indeed! I believe that, one day when theological sensibilities are more adapted to the powerful underlying workings of the Holy Spirit, and a better understanding of the Christ Who is Love is given to the would-be followers of Jesus, then Love shall enter the collective consciousness in Christendom in such a powerful way that the doctrine of endless punishment will become as much a part of history in the way that public executions were once a form of entertainment. But that time is not yet as I understand it, much, much cleansing must happen first, and also awareness that there is a spiritual reckoning of sorts must also rise, indeed that there is a life after physical death - and more. Peace
Sadly, I expect that won't happen in this life time which tend towards decay and wickedness. That makes it a particular worry because on balance of statistics the 144000 are more likely to be ET people than UR people.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 12, 2018, 05:54:31 AM
When light goes through a prism, it refracts into 7 colors. Are there 7 lights? or 7 elements of one light? Is that worth arguing about? Maybe, as long as one is polite about it. :laughing7:
I think it technically splits into 9 colours but we can't see two of them