Jesus - who "is the exact representation of the Father" (Hebrews 1:3) - in Luke, in his sermon on the mount, as it's called, said love our enemies, pray for them, give to them, if they take don't ask for it back.. Then he says how the Father is kind to the unthankful and evil. And next verse (Lk 6:36) - "Therefor be merciful just as your Father is merciful".
A believer trained in the doctrine of eternal torment or annihilation, believes - it seems - that God's mercy is but for a moment/this life. And his anger lasts forever.
But Psalm 30:5 says, "For His anger is but for a moment.."
Jeremiah 3:12 says, "..for I am merciful, saith the LORD, I will not keep anger for ever."
........."..God is not a man, that He should lie" Numbers 23:19 "..it is impossible for God to lie" Hebrews 6:18
"God is Love" 1 John 4:8
I think Jeremiah 3:12 is one of the single greatest proof texts for UR.
Just imagine a good human who would not torture his enemy but instead forgive him. When a human can be so good, it is very easy for God to be even better than the human for God is mature and infinitely wise.
Great apologetics, Marie! :girlheart:
Sometimes I think people read the Bible and see that God allowed people to die in the Old Testament, when there was conflict, at times, and they transfer this thinking to the concept of sending people to Hell. What they fail to realize is that we all must die, but to God, death is just a part of our human existence. It does not equate sending someone to Hell.
D.
Amen, Eaglesway.. "he will not keep anger forever" (no matter what!) in my KJ which hasn't a lot of cross references, has 2 Kings 17:6 as a cross reference which is about Israel being carried away to Assyria.. which the example of Israel as a microcosm of the whole.. how God says "for a moment I hid my face.." (Is 54:8) ..and Paul wrote, "and thus shall all Israel be saved.." ..the rest of Isaiah 54:8 - "but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you," says the LORD your Redeemer."
Amen Dandelion, how do we get eternal life in torment from "the wages of sin is death"?.. :dontknow:
Amen, Anti_Nietzche.. why would our heavenly father tells us not only to forgive our enemies but to be kind to them, but then he plans to torture forever even those who never heard of Jesus.. maybe they were born before Jesus was even born.. I also wonder how it is we think any human could conceive of a better 'end' result than God can so easily accomplish! Genesis 18:14 "is anything too hard for the LORD?"
I think that's why the universe is so mind numbingly vast.. and life on earth is so unbelievably and richly diverse and creative, from leviathan and dragon/dinosaur to tiny.. from mountaintop to barrier reef.. amazingly complex and varied.. so those who truly seek his face (true nature?) can find much assurance in his ability and capability.. And can have faith in "He who stretched out the heavens like a blanket.."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on July 23, 2017, 08:50:18 PM
I think that's why the universe is so mind numbingly vast.. and life on earth is so unbelievably and richly diverse and creative, from leviathan and dragon/dinosaur to tiny.. from mountaintop to barrier reef.. amazingly complex and varied.. so those who truly seek his face (true nature?) can find much assurance in his ability and capability.. And can have faith in "He who stretched out the heavens like a blanket.."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
We indeed have much to learn.
Jeremiah 3:12 says, "..for I am merciful, saith the LORD, I will not keep anger for ever."
Just to take a look at the other side of the arguement. From what I have read about people who have been taken on tours of hell. Jesus isn't angry with those who are in hell. There are two cases I've read where Jesus is crying about the people being in hell, and saying that it is out of his control - they chose this path. It's just the way eternity deals with judgement of sin. And I guess the Father would probably have the same feeling jesus had towards the people in hell. I don't think that ET people think that God is getting veangenance by torturing people in hell - it's more like this was his only option to deal with sin from an eternal perspective.
So I don't think that verse proves UR
Quote from: Andrew on August 09, 2017, 03:01:48 AM
Jeremiah 3:12 says, "..for I am merciful, saith the LORD, I will not keep anger for ever."
Just to take a look at the other side of the arguement. From what I have read about people who have been taken on tours of hell. Jesus isn't angry with those who are in hell. There are two cases I've read where Jesus is crying about the people being in hell, and saying that it is out of his control - they chose this path. It's just the way eternity deals with judgement of sin. And I guess the Father would probably have the same feeling jesus had towards the people in hell. I don't think that ET people think that God is getting veangenance by torturing people in hell - it's more like this was his only option to deal with sin from an eternal perspective.
So I don't think that verse proves UR
A few thoughts after reading your post Andrew. I personally wouldn't recommend putting peoples' subjective reports of certain experiences, such as saying they've been taken on a tour of "hell" for instance, as too heavily mixed with the "gospel". When considering these (and all) spiritual things, I think these things should be somewhat minor in the mix (if at all - our imaginations can run wild, the mind is enmity against God, etc.); with the written scriptures and what God reveals to us about them in our spirit through His Spirit as the main focus. May be worth considering as you/we continue to dig :thumbsup:
I understand what your saying Jabcat. It's just not easy for me to dismiss these cases as merely creations of the mind. Like, for example in 21 minutes in hell by Bill Weisse. God reveals to him afterward that the pain he experienced was lowered than what it actaully is because he really wasn't supposed to be there. And after the experience him and his wife pray that he no longer remember the pain of the experience because he couldn't function properly anymore and God healed him. And now he is determined to spread the message of the Gospel so others don't suffer this fate.
It seems so strange to me that what with knowing the Bible says God is Almighty ( being THE almighty) and I believe most believers believe that he is the almighty God.. then they believe that he is unable to keep a half to three quarters of mankind out of hell.. :faint:
Personally I don't believe man has an immortal soul.. but will "put on immortality" ..."each one in their own order"/time.. Even the born again I believe who have died are "asleep in Jesus" (1 Thess 4) In a twilight like with anesthesia.. I do not believe in a floaty afterlife or disembodied living.. nor even death as another form of living..
So there's no need (like with pagan belief) to have a place of abode for all those unrepentant ones..
Also reading and studying the Bible on my own for almost 40 years, I've not seen where everyone considers it says after death no hope.. I was not taught that., did not have it educated into me..
Only one verse might suggest that to some, namely when Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repent they would die in their sins.. all that means I think is they will rise still (initially) in their sins.
But by end of judgment 'day' by tomebis declared all those not believing / written in the book - of life - will go to the lake of fire.. well I have to wonder after experiencing being woken from their grave and living through and witnessing a very long 'day' of the examination of all things - all history.. well after all that, who's not going to "believe"
God bless you Andrew.. I hope I didn't make any terrible typos, tho I likely did on this tiny phone screen.. but I am falling asleep sitting here in this chair,. And editing in the tiny screemis beyond me right now.. I don't even dare to look..
:Peace2: :girlheart:
PS - I totally agree with Jabcat about imagination.. besides, he'll, to me just is not at all logical what with God being Almighty and all good.. as in "God is love" .."as your father in heaven is perfect"
How does Perfect lose anything? "Is anything too difficult for Him?" ...does Perfect make mistakes? Lose more than He saves? Lose any at all? One lost would not be "perfect".