The whole eternal torment theory hinges upon

[marie glen]

The whole eternal torment theory hinges upon one of the very first lies told to mankind namely, "surely.. you won't.. die.." Contradicting God who said "dust you are.."

1 Corinthians 15:52,53 tells us immortality will be "put on" at the resurrection (the first resurrection as opposed to "you will die in your sin"/imperfection which results in the 2nd resurrection). Jesus said (Jn 14:3,4) "I go to prepare a place for you" oft quoted w/o what follows "if I go and prepare a place for you" (die on the cross) "so you can be where I am, I will come again, and take you to myself" (1st resurrection 1 th 4:15). If we put on immortality at death, why would the Word of God say it is put on at Christ's return?

The concept (and mistranslation) of "hell" can only exist hand in hand with the concept that man has an immortal soul, or is now immortal (and death is not nonlife, but another form of life).

[WhiteWings]

The whole eternal torment theory hinges upon one of the very first lies told to mankind namely, "surely.. you won't.. die.." Contradicting God who said "dust you are.."

Some say that changed when Jesus was resurrected.
So while satan's claim was wrong for OT people it's valid for NT people.

1 Corinthians 15:52,53 tells us immortality will be "put on" at the resurrection (the first resurrection as opposed to "you will die in your sin"/imperfection which results in the 2nd resurrection). Jesus said (Jn 14:3,4) "I go to prepare a place for you" oft quoted w/o what follows "if I go and prepare a place for you" (die on the cross) "so you can be where I am, I will come again, and take you to myself" (1st resurrection 1 th 4:15). If we put on immortality at death, why would the Word of God say it is put on at Christ's return?

The concept (and mistranslation) of "hell" can only exist hand in hand with the concept that man has an immortal soul, or is now immortal (and death is not nonlife, but another form of life).

I agree the whole ET concept is  :fool:
But it doesn't really matter if hell starts right after death or say in 2050. Ok for many Romans of Jesus time it would mean 2000 years less suffering. Hold your hand in a candle flame for 2 seconds. Now imagine your whole body in a double as hot fire for 2000 years. That's 31536000000x longer and is not even tiny moment on the scale of eternity. Justice.... :doh:

[marie glen]

hi, I guess I think of hades as a greek/pagan concept, whereas OT was always sheol "the grave" and according to 1 cor 15:51-58 and 1 th 4 (to me) still is. And hellfire, as in the past as fiery judgment like national judgment, or even personal, but not as a sort of torture place.. Just like when folks sacrificed babes in fire and YHWH said, such a thing never arose in MY mind... I've never been taught or studied under any system, so my perceptions are from prayer and scripture alone. Whereas I'm aware of the widespread view of hellfire as literal even in UR circles, but disagree with the concept.. and think of the two mentions of a lake of fire, as a literal lake of burning oil, as it is always in the middle east area.. And the two specifically mentioned as being thrown into the lake of fire are not 'living' at all (the world beast, a governing body, and the false prophet/teaching which changed all the world and prepared the world for the 1st one (world beast that is, rev 13:1 as opposed to 13:11,18) a teaching which changed the world, i.e. darwin's infamous theory)...

[urpilgrim]

I believe you are on the right track.

It is not until the later books of the Hebrew canon that we start to hear the idea that there are different destinations in the afterlife. Now if you search non-canonical Jewish sources (apocalyptic literature, for example), the theme of the wicked being fated to eternal suffering in fire and ice appears repeatedly. Indeed, it is from this thread of Jewish thinking from around 100BC - 100AD that Christianity, and later Islam, derive their doctrines of eternal damnation.

And as to the "Lake of Fire"

The dictionary definition of brimstone is "an outdated word for sulfur."  This symbolism should be translated as "the lake of burning sulfur" which is how the New International Version of The Bible translated it (Rev. 20:10-15).  Sulfur was widely known in Biblical times as an all-purpose medication.  It was also burned in sulfur pots to disinfect the home after a person had died of an infectious disease.  It was similarly burned to disinfest homes of lice, mice, and other vermin.  People used sulfur to preserve produce. It was burned in religious settings to symbolize prayers of purification.  Every way it is used had a beneficial meaning.

Spiritually, it symbolizes divine healing or being disinfected of sins. In Rev. 20, hell/hades, death, and all spiritual rebels will be cast into the lake of burning sulfur.  This is not God's cosmic torture center but reform school (pig pen, Lk. 15:11-32)!  Christ will draw all to himself (Jn. 12:32) and God's goal:  all in all, will be achieved (I Cor. 15:28).

[WhiteWings]

hi, I guess I think of hades as a greek/pagan concept, whereas OT was always sheol "the grave" and according to 1 cor 15:51-58 and 1 th 4 (to me) still is.

I'm not sure about the exact meaning of Hades. In Greek mythology Hades is the god of the underworld. His kingdom was something called, underworld, kingdom of Hades, or simply Hades.
Sometimes I wonder if the verses are only about the grave or that they are also mocking the god Hades. Or better put the idea that the god Hades exists.

[LS]

The whole eternal torment theory hinges upon one of the very first lies told to mankind namely, "surely.. you won't.. die.." Contradicting God who said "dust you are.."

1 Corinthians 15:52,53 tells us immortality will be "put on" at the resurrection (the first resurrection as opposed to "you will die in your sin"/imperfection which results in the 2nd resurrection). Jesus said (Jn 14:3,4) "I go to prepare a place for you" oft quoted w/o what follows "if I go and prepare a place for you" (die on the cross) "so you can be where I am, I will come again, and take you to myself" (1st resurrection 1 th 4:15). If we put on immortality at death, why would the Word of God say it is put on at Christ's return?

The concept (and mistranslation) of "hell" can only exist hand in hand with the concept that man has an immortal soul, or is now immortal (and death is not nonlife, but another form of life).

Conversely, then, can universal salvation be true using this reasoning?

Your objection seems to hinge on that first lie told to mankind: "surely, you won't die." So if all are saved, then that isn't a lie?

Kinda playing the devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion, but your post raised that question in my mind.

[WhiteWings]

I believe you are on the right track.

It is not until the later books of the Hebrew canon that we start to hear the idea that there are different destinations in the afterlife. Now if you search non-canonical Jewish sources (apocalyptic literature, for example), the theme of the wicked being fated to eternal suffering in fire and ice appears repeatedly. Indeed, it is from this thread of Jewish thinking from around 100BC - 100AD that Christianity, and later Islam, derive their doctrines of eternal damnation.

I've read a few articles of orthodox Rabbis and they speak of a period of 0-12 months of correction.

And as to the "Lake of Fire"

The dictionary definition of brimstone is "an outdated word for sulfur."  This symbolism should be translated as "the lake of burning sulfur" which is how the New International Version of The Bible translated it (Rev. 20:10-15).  Sulfur was widely known in Biblical times as an all-purpose medication.  It was also burned in sulfur pots to disinfect the home after a person had died of an infectious disease.  It was similarly burned to disinfest homes of lice, mice, and other vermin.  People used sulfur to preserve produce. It was burned in religious settings to symbolize prayers of purification.  Every way it is used had a beneficial meaning.

It could also refer to the dead sea. It's a on a fault line. Historical reports show that centries after Jesus died there was still a strong smell, and often a mist/vapor, of sulpher above the dead sea.
There is a volcano under the surface. A better translation is lake of the fire. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lake_the_fire_7579.0.html and http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/lof_lets_take_swim_6864.msg76392.html#msg76392

There seems also been a saying at that time: Cast what's useless in the lake.
I think "the lake" likely has several meanings.

[urpilgrim]

"I've read a few articles of orthodox Rabbis and they speak of a period of 0-12 months of correction."

In addition, the tradition tells us that souls in Gehenna also get Shabbat and holidays off.  :laughing7:

It is interesting that some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven).  :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think so, too.....

[WhiteWings]

In addition, the tradition tells us that souls in Gehenna also get Shabbat and holidays off.  :laughing7:

I never saw even a hint of that in teh article I've read.

It is interesting that some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven).  :2c:

That's exactly what i wrote and the only (current) view I found. So unless I overlooked the majority of thel Rabbies/Jews hold the view of a 1-12 month period of correction.