Hi folks, stumbled onto Matt 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Now, in the Vines it says: Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Says who??? Don't leave Gehenna in the proper age but move it and customize it to give those "wicked" people a roasting!
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Shalom
Jock :flamebreath:
.....hey Jock.......it helps me to seperate people from "wickedness"..realizing 'wickedness' is as dross..that
is considered as a worthless thing...just as a dead carcass is a worthless thing..as dross/trash.
when you deceive someone-you 'fool' them..and if you beleive their intentional lie..they take you as
a 'fool' something despised.
imo what Jesus was expounding was..deceivers that purposely mislead people and despise them....as
'fools' to mislead them...will be judged[that their works are wicked] He was fine tuning the murdering of a
brother....to being angry with your brother...to thinking him 'empty-headed/stupid' and a fool.......He was
teaching love of your fellow man....and that 'wickedness in the heart" was considered non-desirable and
useless trash..in the Kingdom of the Love of the son....and would come to naught..or be thrown out.
now,just as an evil spirit..'tempts..misleads into sin,sets traps,plots destruction and despizes man" it too,
shall be considered dross/undesirable[a useless thing]..for the eternal kingdom of heaven.
He then further expounds on the proper attitude of heart that God requires in His worship in verse 23
and counsels'be reconciled with your brother..to settle the matter quickly[less then loving attitudes/treatment
with your fellow man.]....on the way..for God is the judge.....
despise the face of no man
the 'foolishness of God in the cross' is wiser then all the wisdom of men 1 Cor 1;25,27 1 Cor 4;10
and Proverbs 1;7..the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.....
.but fools despise wisdom[from above/Jesus/hear ye Him] and discipline/teachings
He will throw out man's self-righteousness/filthy rags..to be burned.....as worthless.
Quote from: Jock on March 04, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
Hi folks, stumbled onto Matt 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Now, in the Vines it says: Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Says who??? Don't leave Gehenna in the proper age but move it and customize it to give those "wicked" people a roasting!
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Shalom
Jock :flamebreath:
Hi Jock,
Jesus said something interesting to them in his ministry. He said that because they didn't believe him, they were judged already. As though they are living in a kind of judgment. Here is what he said, and I will show the correlation between that and Gehenna next.
He said:
John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe
has been judged already (Greek - ede - already or now), because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.
In fact the word "ede" was translated as "now" 37 times. So there is a kind of judgment happening now. What does that have to do with Gehenna. James talks about it here:
James 3
5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life,
and is set on fire by
Gehenna.
Gehenna fire is very destructive which is why Jesus says: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matt 23:33)
Orthodoxy views Gehenna (they think to be "Hell") as a future judgment only. But Christ speaks about it as though it is something they were already in, and didn't even think so (kind of like Laodicea?) Gehenna judgment is something that can be among us, and even within us, now. How can anyone escape the "course of our life" to be set on fire by "a world of iniquity?"
1) Believe in the Son
2) Receive the Holy Spirit
3) Walk according to the Spirit
Then, you will have escaped the judgment of Gehenna. Those who reject in this life will be turned over to their "world of iniquity" which is why he says
Revelation 22
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man
according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Everyone in Gehenna is there so that they thirst for Christ who speaks through his bride, saying "Come all ye who are athirst and drink freely of the water of life." (Revelation 22:17)
Sheila
What you posted was immediately helpful. Separating the wickedness (as dross) from the man. I also realized that Christ was always holding up the standard of the Father, in His Holiness and perfect love which is to let men know that they can't do this by themselves, they need a Saviour! The Saviour was and is the vey person who was speaking to them. Ever since the Law was given, men have tried to be righteous (filthy rags).
Thanks Sis :winkgrin:
Hello Seth.
Interesting because I had thought of Gehenna being a "past" judgement, but now I am seeing that so much of what Jesus and the apostles taught, was and is, now, because Christ is now! Religious men sit thinking that they have purged themselves from all iniquity and "deserve" to go to heaven, whereas we sit here totally dependent on God and every moment desiring His mercy, which is Christ!
We see the darkness in our lives and utter "Lord, have mercy on me for I am a sinner"
The religious mind says, "I'm glad I'm not like THAT man"
If we could change ourselves, we wouldn't need Christ. The present fiery trials then, are a blessing from God because we are drawn to Him where we will appreciate as you said "the water of life".
Thanks bro :gimmefive:
Jock.
Jock... :girlheart:
Wow beautiful message all of you !! seeing the rich man and Lazurus parable alot plainer now too ! God Bless you all !!! :HeartThrob:
the Lord has blessed with much waters of life at the Tent as of late ....
I find the contrast amazing in the scriptures suddenly how the WORD OF GOD being a Two edged SWORD
the serpent [wisdom of man [brood of vipers ] is dust , but in and though Christ [wisdom and power of God ] its living waters from the belly !!!
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days ofyour life:
Psa 44:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaves unto the earth.
Should one be drawn/dragged to the Lord, you can be sure that you will go through Gehenna.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Judgment: G2917 krima From G2919; a decision G2919 krinō Properly to distinguish, that is, decide
And this decision(s) will be made from fire, and I believe that when we come through this judging(by fire) we will not be hurt in the second death...the Lake of Fire. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 05, 2014, 11:57:34 PM
Should one be drawn/dragged to the Lord, you can be sure that you will go through Gehenna.
Hi Micah :friendstu:
IMHO, that's not Gehenna. Gehenna is a bad state to be in. It is a low state of outer darkness and destruction in sinful behavior. If someone is dragged to the Lord, he is drawn to the Light and salvation FROM Gehenna, to grow in grace.
I believe the 1 Peter 4 quote shows growth in grace. Those who are in the Gehenna state are there because they are removed from the presence of God, thus the image in his parables of people being tied up and thrown out.
Gehenna is an expression of God's wrath in turning people over to a corrupt mind, but the House of God is not appointed to his wrath.
1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety;
then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren,
are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath
not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
The sudden destruction is what Gehenna is about, and that is why Jesus warned us to be watchful of ourselves, so that we do NOT enter that state. He warned us to abide in him.
John 15
2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit,
He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit... 6 If anyone does not abide in Me,
he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and
cast them into the fire and they are burned.
I cannot except your thoughts and reason. Jesus only taught to His disciples about Gehenna.
Just where are you, yes you, when you are choosing the direction?
From much of your posts I, that's me, personally believe you lean to at least somewhat to the ideals of ET. :Peace2:
And so, The Judgment, the High Council, Gehenna fire, and prison, are the Judgments of Jesus Christ, and no one else. They are His SPIRITUAL JUDGMENTS. And since they are spiritual, few indeed, have even a clue as to what they are and how they are administered. Jesus said if one of His disciples is angry with a brother, they would be in danger of the Judgment. Judgment (Gk: krisis-Tribunal, justice, divine law). Jesus has such a tribunal. :dsunny:
WOW..Micah! Iagree..for this reason He said..your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisee's......
also the letter to the seven churches in Rev 1......removing lamps..etc..fighting them with the sword of His
mouth. many called few chosen... if anything..the church..is held to a higher accountability..as far as I see.
if the church should be tempted and led to arrogance,pride and self-righteousness...He most certainly
would strip us bear and thrown that filthy garment of self-righteousness out into the trash..no bones about it.
If the church should be turning the house of prayer into a den of robbers and theivess..He most certainly
would use a whip and drive the money changers out.
Zeal for His Father's house consumes Him
He corrects,He disciplines...and it most certainly is greivous.............my daughter's been crying for 5
months...He warned her a month before..and I give her the message from Him in a dream.......
I also have been on the receiving end of that rod of correction.........He does this to keep us from death...
that we may live before Him.....
my :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 04:17:22 AM
From much of your posts I, that's me, personally believe you lean to at least somewhat to the ideals of ET.
This is untrue and I do not appreciate it. I haven't held to the ideals of ET since I stopped believing in it.
QuoteJesus only taught to His disciples about Gehenna.
This is my point exactly. He is telling them to continue to abide in him or they will be cut off. That just what the scripture says. You can label me an ETer if it makes you feel better, but I didn't write these words:
John 15
2
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit,
He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit... 6 If anyone does not abide in Me,
he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and
cast them into the fire and they are burned.
I didn't write that scripture, Micah. The Lord wrote that, and it has very real meaning. Do you see how Christ is telling them it is much better to continue to abide in him, rather than be cut off and burned? He, once again, is talking to his disciples, as you say. He says it's much better to abide in him and be "pruned" rather than to bear no fruit at all and be "cut off and burned."
Paul wrote about the same thing:
Romans 11
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Paul is saying that
belief grafted the Gentiles in, but
highmindedness will get them cut off. Highmindedness (not lack of belief) is lack of fruit production just as Jesus said, abide in him and bear fruit, lest you be cut off and thrown in the fire. I am sorry if it doesn't sound nice, but it is the truth. Gehenna is represented as "the outer darkness." God is not that darkness, and he wants us to remain in his light.
p.s. in regard to Him laying the foundations of the earth bare. I want to share just what happened with me.
I heard about the salvation of all when I was 17..and rejected it...for my own self-righteousness.
I was so carnal at that time that He could not teach me....He sent me off to a legalistic self-righteous
religious church[after all..that was the type I was/birds of a feather and all that]...what a spiritual
prison house that was[Babylon cage of unclean birds/spirits]. Giving credit where it is due..He did come and visit
me there...after ten long years He released me[pay the last penny]
at that time..the foundations were stripped bare...when I realized all my form of worship and sacrifice
in that religious org was nothing! coz it was not built on love for God and other's..but trying to prove my
own righteousness by works..and saving my own neck! and that's just part of my expierence.......
and I tell you..my life become a living hell....[two-fold the child of hell as their proselyte]
this happened; Isaaih 51;17 Awake awake Rise up Jerusalem,you who have drunk from the cup of
His wrath..you who have drained to it's dregs the goblet that makes men stagger.
Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2014, 05:26:51 AM
p.s. in regard to Him laying the foundations of the earth bare. I want to share just what happened with me.
I heard about the salvation of all when I was 17..and rejected it...for my own self-righteousness.
I was so carnal at that time that He could not teach me....He sent me off to a legalistic self-righteous
religious church[after all..that was the type I was/birds of a feather and all that]...what a spiritual
prison house that was[Babylon cage of unclean birds/spirits]. Giving credit where it is due..He did come and visit
To me, your description is the essence of "Gehenna." A prison house. A carnal minded darkness. I came from my own Gehenna fire and outer darkness myself, and Lord willing, I will not return. I depend on him for that. I am still climbing the latter. Not perfect, but still looking upward.
The Cup of the Lord's Wrath
17Awake, awake!
Rise up, Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord
the cup of his wrath,
you who have drained to its dregs
the goblet that makes people stagger.
18Among all the children she bore
there was none to guide her;
among all the children she reared
there was none to take her by the hand.
19These double calamities have come upon you—
who can comfort you?—
ruin and destruction, famine and sword—
who cana console you?
20Your children have fainted;
they lie at every street corner,
like antelope caught in a net.
They are filled with the wrath of the Lord,
with the rebuke of your God.
21Therefore hear this, you afflicted one,
made drunk, but not with wine.
22This is what your Sovereign Lord says,
your God, who defends his people:
"See, I have taken out of your hand
the cup that made you stagger;
from that cup, the goblet of my wrath,
you will never drink again.
23I will put it into the hands of your tormentors,
who said to you,
'Fall prostrate that we may walk on you.'And you made your back like the ground,
like a street to be walked on."
:thumbsup: same here , dear ones
Quote from: Seth on March 06, 2014, 05:29:16 AM
Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2014, 05:26:51 AM
p.s. in regard to Him laying the foundations of the earth bare. I want to share just what happened with me.
I heard about the salvation of all when I was 17..and rejected it...for my own self-righteousness.
I was so carnal at that time that He could not teach me....He sent me off to a legalistic self-righteous
religious church[after all..that was the type I was/birds of a feather and all that]...what a spiritual
prison house that was[Babylon cage of unclean birds/spirits]. Giving credit where it is due..He did come and visit
To me, your description is the essence of "Gehenna." A prison house. A carnal minded darkness. I came from my own Gehenna fire and outer darkness myself, and Lord willing, I will not return. I depend on him for that. I am still climbing the latter. Not perfect, but still looking upward.
"I came from my own Gehenna fire and outer darkness myself, and Lord willing, I will not return."
Seth if you are His[and i know you are] it's not a matter of returning, you my friend are still there! Gehenna is our "proving ground." Would you desire the Second Death....the Lake of Fire? I think not.
It is by FIRE, the cleansing and purging is by fire, if it is not Gehenna, it's the Lake of Fire.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 06:02:56 AM
Seth if you are His[and i know you are] it's not a matter of returning, you my friend are still there! Gehenna is our "proving ground." Would you desire the Second Death....the Lake of Fire?
What makes you think that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are different? What scriptures show you that they are different. I believe they are the same. The correlations between Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are startling to me.
1) Both Gehenna and the Lake of Fire exist outside of Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is God's people, and the Tree of Life is at the center. In order to be judged in Gehenna, the faithful disciples would need to be cast OUTSIDE of New Jerusalem in to the low valley. The metaphor does not support the idea that Christ's faithful must endure a casting out, unless they fail to abide in him and bear fruit.
2) James creates a correlation to Gehenna fire and sin, when he says, according to James 3:6, "the tongue is a
fire, a world of
iniquity" in regard to
Gehenna. Similarly, the Lake of
Fire is where the unbelieving, lying, murdering and whoremongering are.
3) Jesus warned the disciples to metaphorically cut off their ligaments and throw them into the fire, rather than be thrown in full body (being in Gehenna is therefore bad, like the lake of fire, or Jesus would have told them to run into the fire, rather than to keep out of it)
4) Jesus warned his disciples to fear him who has the power to DESTROY (appolumi - make lost) the soul and body in Gehenna
5) Jesus also asked the
Pharisees, "How shall
you escape the judgment of Gehenna? (Mat. 23:33)" First, those were not his disciples, and second, God's pruning judgment for his house is not something we should need to escape from. The Spirit and the Bride tell people in the Lake of Fire to escape, by coming inside to drink of the water of life.
Well then give it up, I will give it up, somewhere our wires got crossed.
Seth said, "What makes you think that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are different?"
They are not. So we begin on even ground. :gimmefive: :dsunny:
1Pet 1:4-8 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Now, this is obviously speaking of us and in the here and now. The question for me though, is God's correction, chastisement, testing, the same as His judgements? I think it is, then it would be His Love for He loves us enough to cleanse and purify. Everything, everything must speak of God's perfect Love!
Enlighten me ye men/women of knowledge!
Cheers, Jock. :dontknow:
I definitely agree. As Rose had said in a previous post she quoted from the Bible that there is a fire in Zion and there's also a fire down below in the valley of Gehenna. We want to stay on Zion rather than to leave Jerusalem and find ourselves destroyed in Gehenna.
interesting aside....the feild of blood[potter's feild] bought with Judas blood money..is located in the valley
of ben-hinnon[gehenna]
This is a side note on Judas. He was and is condemned universally, but he may well be exalted at the judgement because he did what the Lord said. He obeyed God.
Just a thought
Quote from: sheila on March 06, 2014, 06:52:16 PM
interesting aside....the feild of blood[potter's feild] bought with Judas blood money..is located in the valley
of ben-hinnon[gehenna]
That
is very interesting. Where did you get that info? I've always had a curiosity about where those locations are.
Quote from: JockThis is a side note on Judas. He was and is condemned universally, but he may well be exalted at the judgement because he did what the Lord said. He obeyed God.
Just a thought
Whether or not Judas will be revealed as a Son of God to the world via Romans 8, I don't know. But I definitely believe that God will reveal his goodness through Judas' salvation.
the scriptures had to be fulfilled. Judas served as an example of the son of perdition..the only one that
suffered 'loss'. satan entered Judas...........basically this displays that satan loses his position in heaven
as the adversary that put's to death the Christ..also his voice as accusor,temptor and prosecutor and
power to 'try' sift like wheat..the sons of God.
now Judas ..by the decree of God was appointed to demonstrate these things..as a vessel of wrath..
for Father to reveal these things to us.......Father can 'of the same lump' make Judas unto a vessel of honour
for all men have bore the corruptible image[man of sin] and all men shall also bear the incorruptible.....
but to demonstrate the crushing of the 'head' of the serpent..by Jesus Christ...these scriptures had
to be fulfilled.
Hi Seth, I just google searched the 'gehenna gate of Jerusalem' also went on a photo tour of the valley
in present day." tombs galour.....
You can actually take a drive down Gehenna Road in Jerusalem via Google Maps: Gehenna Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@31.768687,35.231465,3a,75y,94.84h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sLu94L1sm8zQavWemiua91w!2e0?hl=en)
Videos on Judas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo1_o5XdS74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qv6ZR78nRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAElEdCIcY
3 part series by Clyde Pilkington
Gehenna | Let's tiptoe through the valley to hell (http://gehenna%20|%20let's%20tiptoe%20through%20the%20valley%20to%20hell)
Found this one to help out perhaps , there is lots more ... very interesting to say the least on a historical note .... wow !! Thanks to you all :winkgrin:
Quote from: Jock on March 06, 2014, 08:15:16 PM
Videos on Judas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo1_o5XdS74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qv6ZR78nRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVAElEdCIcY
3 part series by Clyde Pilkington
It wasn't until I got to the second tape - at counter 52 minutes - that I started to weep.
Judas will be on one of those twelve thrones.
Jesus said so!
And then Samson, totally wrecked, gets refilled with God's strength - and ends up being called a man of faith in the New Testament.
(Still weeping)...
You have noooo idea how much this means to me.
Thank you so much for posting these links.
:HeartThrob:
Hi Jock: Yes, thank you so much for the links. Although I don't do youtube... I did a quick search on Clyde Pilkington and found two treasures/devotionals: Daily Goodies and Daily Gleanings... I have learned that sharing scriptural based daily devotionals with family and friends is such an "easy" way to get them into a more consistent reading of the Word... again, thanks much for sharing these links...
Hi Anna
Glad the Lord led you to what you needed. He always has a plan B, & C &D etc.
:URWelcome:
Jock.
Hi Tapioca
That's really cool, and you don't have to divulge what took place between you and the Spirit. At one point, He led me to Tentmaker and it was just what He wanted me to hear and learn. It took me a while, I thought that universalism was too good to be true but I became convinced in the Lord that it is.
Have a good day. :banana:
Jock.
Quote from: Jock on March 04, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
Hi folks, stumbled onto Matt 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Now, in the Vines it says: Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Says who??? Don't leave Gehenna in the proper age but move it and customize it to give those "wicked" people a roasting!
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Shalom
Jock :flamebreath:
:iagree: :iagree:
hi! i read the last posts, before reading this first
(I was thinking about Judas' restoration just yesterday.) What great links and insight to bring such blessing!!! :girlheart:
I was also thinking about "gehenna" as in yesterday's reading included how when Jesus returns, he will gather the nations, putting the wheat in his barn (Israel, as when He returns His feet 'touchdown' on the Mt of Olives, Zech 14:4) but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. at that last conflagration/fire/split atom? around Israel. The end result and consequences of mankind's (God-less) doings = 'judgment'
.."and the nations will gather to Armageddon" (Rev 16:14,15,16) .."He comes with angels and with fire" (2 thes 1:7) and will divide the wheat from the tares.. the wheat to his barn (Israel) and the tares to the fire.
Yes, who decided the fire is 'hades' realm of the dead, which btw, is still the dust of the grave, the lower part of the earth where Jesus truly descended..
:smile:
Yes Marie, so many thoughts on fire, the burning bush was burning but not consumed, the fiery furnace could only loose the bonds of the three men (because of Christ). So many other examples. I was thinking but may be wrong, with Gehenna, weren't the carcases of men and animals consumed there, it seems to me that any human that was cast in there was already dead? Just a thought.
Shalom. :Peace2:
Jock.
Quote from: Jock on March 07, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
Yes Marie, so many thoughts on fire, the burning bush was burning but not consumed, the fiery furnace could only loose the bonds of the three men (because of Christ). So many other examples. I was thinking but may be wrong, with Gehenna, weren't the carcases of men and animals consumed there, it seems to me that any human that was cast in there was already dead? Just a thought.
Shalom. :Peace2:
Jock.
Yes, absolutely, if criminals were burned there. Certainly children were put to death there as a sacrifice to false gods. What death that signifies spiritually to me is "to be carnally minded is death."
Yes, Seth
The Lake of Fire being the 2nd death, a fire that consumes. Yet, God will be all in all so those who are consumed in the Lake, are re-vivified. I still have trouble with the LOF, like is it a conscious experience for a short time, or what? Any thoughts?
Jock.
I believe the LOF is the spiritual state of being in darkness and outside the Bride of Christ as a metaphor for them who abide in that. Ithat is why I believe it is like in done to death and not life. To gain life they must heed the words of the spirit and the bride who say come all you are who are thirsty and drink of the water of life. The water of life is within the bride not the outer of darkness. It's is not a literal fire but a metaphor for thirsting for righteousness. I I believe it is likened to fire because fire is literally destructive like sin is destructive. And they will all come into the city of New Jerusalem so that God will be all in all eventually, but it will be by first passing through the city gates of New Jerusalem, a symbol of those who bring the gospel.
To me it's impossible to understand the LOF without also understanding New Jerusalem. You cannot discuss one without the other. In fact the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF.
Quote from: Seth on March 07, 2014, 07:27:08 PM
To me it's impossible to understand the LOF without also understanding New Jerusalem. You cannot discuss one without the other. In fact the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF.
" In fact
the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF."
Could you clarify this for me? Thanks :dsunny:
I meant the latter chapters the last three chapters of Revelation. 20, 21, 22. I believe when discussing the lake of fire it's critical to also include New Jerusalem into the discussion so the constrast between them can be seen.
I kinda knew you meant chapters, but you also said, " In fact the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF."
That reminded me of the preachers who say the Bible says more about hell than heaven. :eek:
So I offer this the LOF beats NJ by two. :dsunny:
Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev_20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev_3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
Rev_21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 07, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
I kinda knew you meant chapters, but you also said, " In fact the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF."
That reminded me of the preachers who say the Bible says more about hell than heaven. :eek:
So I offer this the LOF beats NJ by two. :dsunny:
Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev_20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev_3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
Rev_21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
I think you are judging it by a different criteria. I didn't say the WORDS New Jerusalem appear more. I said it "talk more about" New Jerusalem than the lake of fire.
Look at the lengthy descriptions in both chapters 21 and 22. Measurements, details about the construction, using pearl for the gates, streams of water flowing, a tree of life. All this having to do with New Jerusalem. What description do we get for the LOF? Fire and brimstone. That's pretty much it.
All this basically to say, you can't determine the meaning of the LOF without considering the weight given to New Jerusalem in the same chapters.
QuoteI kinda knew you meant chapters, but you also said, " In fact the latter books of Revelation talk more about New Jerusalem than the LOF."
That reminded me of the preachers who say the Bible says more about hell than heaven.
And yet, it's totally reversed.
I was not "judging" anything. But I'll give you, all I did was compare the WORDS. As for the "description"
" Measurements, details about the construction, using pearl for the gates, streams of water flowing, a tree of life. All this having to do with New Jerusalem. "
Unless a person, such as myself, knows just what the words mean and represent, I have no idea what the New Jerusalem will look like.
As far the LOF, fire and brimstone, say much about what is to be expected. :Peace2:
there's nothing wrong with judging. just to let you know I wasn't accusing you something bad. New Jerusalem represents the bride which represents God's people. the overcomer inherits New Jerusalem.I take new jerusalem to be as much a metaphor as I do the lake of fire. Everyone else not an overcomer is outside the bride. But the catch and the key is that the Spirit and bride is inviting everyone else inside. You see that at the very end of Revelation
Quote(I was thinking about Judas' restoration just yesterday.) What great links and insight to bring such blessing!!!
I was also thinking about "gehenna" as in yesterday's reading included how when Jesus returns, he will gather the nations, putting the wheat in his barn (Israel, as when He returns His feet 'touchdown' on the Mt of Olives, Zech 14:4) but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. at that last conflagration/fire/split atom? around Israel. The end result and consequences of mankind's (God-less) doings = 'judgment'
.."and the nations will gather to Armageddon" (Rev 16:14,15,16) .."He comes with angels and with fire" (2 thes 1:7) and will divide the wheat from the tares.. the wheat to his barn (Israel) and the tares to the fire.
Yes, who decided the fire is 'hades' realm of the dead, which btw, is still the dust of the grave, the lower part of the earth where Jesus truly descended..
Hi Marie :HeartThrob:
when I think of
judas and how he was only doing what he was called to do I began to wonder
why did Saul whom was persecuting and murdering the body of Christ putting to death , was no different than Judas ?? and we see how Saul / Paul also an example
I really dont see any difference ?? My thinking has changed so much Praise God !!
I know Gods mercy endures forever and wrath for only a moment :cloud9:
I cannot watch You Tube
this old and slow dial -up and have really been missing out it seems
If anyone could give just some points of those 3 messages ,I would love to hear them from you , Thanks
You have it proper and correct. :dsunny: Judas as Saul(Paul) were/are in the Lord's plan and purpose.
Rotherham 13: 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you—He that receiveth whomsoever I shall send, receiveth, me; and, he that receiveth, me, receiveth him that sent me.