The bible said that God never forgive sin

[IceDash]

24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

this sound like a satanic god or a bad tranlation.....

[Gab]

Yeah, that's not a very good translation.  That fact is made immediately obvious even without an examination of the Hebrew just from the passage that follows immediately thereafter:

"But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We will serve the LORD.' Then Joshua said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the LORD.'  'Yes, we are witnesses,' they replied. 'Now then,' said Joshua, 'throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.'  And the people said to Joshua, 'We will serve the LORD our God and obey him.'  On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he drew up for them decrees and laws. And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. 'See!' he said to all the people. 'This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God.'  Then Joshua sent the people away, each to his own inheritance.  .... Israel served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the LORD had done for Israel." (Joshua 24:21-28,31)

Obviously, if the people did indeed serve God, then the idea that they could never serve God is patently ridiculous.

So what's the explanation?  The answer lies in the Hebrew word used.  The standard Hebrew word for "forgive" is calach, found in verses such as these:

"'No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,' declares the LORD. 'For I will forgive (calach) their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.'" (Jeremiah 31:34)

The Hebrew word here, however, is nasa, which more correctly means "to bear" or "to carry".  It is used elsewhere in verses like this:

"Cain said to the LORD, 'My punishment is more than I can bear (nasa).'" (Genesis 4:13)

What Joshua is saying here is not that God will not forgive their sins, but that he will not tolerate their sins - in other words, that they must repent, turn from their false gods, and follow God and God alone.  When he says that they cannot serve God, what he means is that they cannot serve God in their current state, not that they cannot serve God, ever.

(As an aside, this is the only instance out of twenty-one in the Book of Joshua in which this word is translated "forgive".  Every other translation is "take", "bear", or "carry", and there is no obvious reason why this one should not follow suit.  Accident, or purposeful forcing of preconceived doctrine onto the text?  You decide. :laughing7:)

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Yeah, that's not a very good translation.  That fact is made immediately obvious even without an examination of the Hebrew just from the passage that follows immediately thereafter:

"But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We will serve the LORD.' Then Joshua said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the LORD.'  'Yes, we are witnesses,' they replied. 'Now then,' said Joshua, 'throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.'  And the people said to Joshua, 'We will serve the LORD our God and obey him.'  On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he drew up for them decrees and laws. And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. 'See!' he said to all the people. 'This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God.'  Then Joshua sent the people away, each to his own inheritance.  .... Israel served the LORD throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the LORD had done for Israel." (Joshua 24:21-28,31)

Obviously, if the people did indeed serve God, then the idea that they could never serve God is patently ridiculous.

So what's the explanation?  The answer lies in the Hebrew word used.  The standard Hebrew word for "forgive" is calach, found in verses such as these:

"'No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,' declares the LORD. 'For I will forgive (calach) their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.'" (Jeremiah 31:34)

The Hebrew word here, however, is nasa, which more correctly means "to bear" or "to carry".  It is used elsewhere in verses like this:

"Cain said to the LORD, 'My punishment is more than I can bear (nasa).'" (Genesis 4:13)

What Joshua is saying here is not that God will not forgive their sins, but that he will not tolerate their sins - in other words, that they must repent, turn from their false gods, and follow God and God alone.  When he says that they cannot serve God, what he means is that they cannot serve God in their current state, not that they cannot serve God, ever.

I love reading your explanations Gab, always interesting.

[Gab]

I love reading your explanations Gab, always interesting.

Thanks - anything to help out a neighbor in need. :smile:

(I also added an aside after a bit more investigation that you might find interesting - you quoted me too soon! :grin:)

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I love reading your explanations Gab, always interesting.

Thanks - anything to help out a neighbor in need. :smile:

(I also added an aside after a bit more investigation that you might find interesting - you quoted me too soon! :grin:)

Lol well i loved your 'aside' as well!  Thank you.

[IceDash]

I wonder if they fix this tranlation in a new bible?

[WhiteWings]

I wonder if they fix this tranlation in a new bible?

A Bible "should" support a doctrine. So it won't happen  (in mainstream Bibles) :sigh:

[Gab]

I wonder if they fix this tranlation in a new bible?

I checked at least a dozen translations, out of curiosity.  The only one that I found not to translate it as "forgive" is Young's Literal.

EDIT: Actually, scratch that; there are some older Bibles that do not translate it as "forgive".  These include the 1853 Leeser Bible, the 1568 Bishops' Bible, both of which translate it as "bear"; and the 1855 Calvin Bible and the 1535 Coverdale Bible, both of which translate it as "spare".  The 1587 Geneva Bible translates it as "pardon" rather than "forgive", but the meaning there is the exact same.

[Tim B]

I wonder if they fix this tranlation in a new bible?

I checked at least a dozen translations, out of curiosity.  The only one that I found not to translate it as "forgive" is Young's Literal.

EDIT: Actually, scratch that; there are some older Bibles that do not translate it as "forgive".  These include the 1853 Leeser Bible, the 1568 Bishops' Bible, both of which translate it as "bear"; and the 1855 Calvin Bible and the 1535 Coverdale Bible, both of which translate it as "spare".  The 1587 Geneva Bible translates it as "pardon" rather than "forgive", but the meaning there is the exact same.

Man, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible doesn't even translate it as "bear" but rather "forgive". That's rather disappointing. But I suppose it doesn't matter too much, as Rotherham definitely gets many other things right, like Matthew 25:46 as "age-lasting/age-abiding correction".

[martincisneros]

24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

this sound like a satanic god or a bad tranlation.....

Or a misunderstanding on forgiveness/unforgiveness on God's part.  If it's not forgiven, then obviously it's spanked.  If your kids do wrong, you either overlook it, or you give them something to remember on not [ever] doing that again, and depending on the nature of what, sometimes not doing it again without permission! 'cause obviously some things are emphatically wrong, treasonous to the household, et. al., while other things are simply a matter of when, where, viz., within boundaries of God's time, parameters, and place.  Not sure how the Concordant translates this.

[Gab]

24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

this sound like a satanic god or a bad tranlation.....

Or a misunderstanding on forgiveness/unforgiveness on God's part.  If it's not forgiven, then obviously it's spanked.  If your kids do wrong, you either overlook it, or you give them something to remember on not [ever] doing that again, and depending on the nature of what, sometimes not doing it again without permission! 'cause obviously some things are emphatically wrong, treasonous to the household, et. al., while other things are simply a matter of when, where, viz., within boundaries of God's time, parameters, and place.  Not sure how the Concordant translates this.

I can't seem to find any resource for the Concordant version of the verse, but Young's Literal Translation renders it "bear" rather than "forgive".  I'd probably be swayed by your interpretation of the translation into "forgive" if it weren't for one sticking point for me: the wording is not "is not forgiven", but rather "will not forgive".  It's not saying that forgiveness just has not come up until this point; it's saying that forgiveness will not come, at least for some period of time in the future.  There's no obvious modifier that directly limits the extent of time during which God "will not forgive", although I suppose one could be inferred through the rest of the passage.

I still maintain, however, that this is just a bad translation and fundamentally misrepresents what the original author actually intended to say.  72% of the instances of the word "forgive" or "pardon" in the KJV come from the Hebrew word calach.  Conversely, 79% of the translations in the KJV for the Hebrew word nasa (which is the word used here) put it into some form of "lift up", "bear", "carry", and such like.  So it really makes no sense whatsoever to render it as "forgive", and I kind of doubt if someone would do so if they truly were working purely off of the Hebrew with no consultation with other translations.

...At any rate, this is rather a divergence from the question at hand.  Sorry about that. :laughing7:

[Tim B]

24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

this sound like a satanic god or a bad tranlation.....

Or a misunderstanding on forgiveness/unforgiveness on God's part.  If it's not forgiven, then obviously it's spanked.  If your kids do wrong, you either overlook it, or you give them something to remember on not [ever] doing that again, and depending on the nature of what, sometimes not doing it again without permission! 'cause obviously some things are emphatically wrong, treasonous to the household, et. al., while other things are simply a matter of when, where, viz., within boundaries of God's time, parameters, and place.  Not sure how the Concordant translates this.

If this is true, then why in the world does Paul say that through Christ's cross we receive the forgiveness of sins? That would seem to suggest that we don't receive forgiveness through the cross. Besides, Christ forgave before the cross. How does the cross relate to forgiveness then?

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated! Thanks, Martin.  :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God;he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Maybe consider Joshua's audience. Perhaps these folks needed some sort of fear. Because that is all they could understand from their worship of previous false gods. Perhaps Joshua was just meeting them where they were so to speak, in their understanding of God. Maybe "fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom" applies in this case in an actual "FEAR!" sense and not in the "awe reverence" sense. Note... the BEGINNING of wisdom. The beginning... not the middle or halfway point or the culmination of wisdom but the BEGINNING.

14Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

16And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;


(see they seem a bit confused and like they somehow NEED fear in order to serve God. They are not very understanding of who God is. So perhaps they needed this old familiar "fear" to cling to in the beginning...?)

17For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

18And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

22And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

23Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

24And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

25So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.

26And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.

27And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

28So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

29And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old.

30And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathserah, which is in mount Ephraim, on the north side of the hill of Gaash.

31And Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the LORD, that he had done for Israel.

32And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.

33And Eleazar the son of Aaron died; and they buried him in a hill that pertained to Phinehas his son, which was given him in mount Ephraim.


Perhaps these folks just needed that "fear" because they were accustomed to it. Fear is not good, of course... but perhaps it served a purpose for Joshua.


just thinking out loud.
not sure what the heck i'm talking about.  :grin:
It made sense a few minutes ago while I was thinking about it.
oh well.