Tentmaker Forum

12 Bible results for "Gehenna." Showing results 1-12.

In this study I have tried to ignore all doctrine, and start from scratch, so to speak.

Note: Valley Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which had been turned into a dump (because very sacrilegious things had been done there). Even the bodies of criminals (and animals) were thrown there, so fires were kept burning to keep the putrefaction and odor in check.

Matthew 5:22 - but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim (court), and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

Matthew 5:29 - But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 5:30 - And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 18:9 - And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

Matthew 23:15 - Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna (a criminal, or worse?) twofold more than yourselves.

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Matthew 23:33 - Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
                             --- The fiery judgment which occurred in 70 A.D.? ---

Matthew 10:28 - And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

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REPEAT VERSES in other author accounts

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable -- (not put out)

Mark 9:45 - And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable -- (allowed to burn continually until only ashes remain)

Mark 9:47 - And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --

Luke 12:5 - but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
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James 3:6 - and the tongue [is] a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body, and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna/destruction?

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11 Bible results for "hades." Showing results 1-11


Matthew 11:23 - And thou, Capernaum, which unto the heaven wast exalted, unto hades shalt be brought down, because if in Sodom had been done the mighty works that were done in thee, it had remained unto this day;

Luke 10:15 - And thou, Capernaum, which unto the heaven wast exalted, unto hades thou shalt be brought down.
                                           --- Capernaum no longer exists. ---

Matthew 16:18 - And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


Luke 16:23 - and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,


Acts 2:27 - because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;


1 Corinthians 15:55 - where, O Death, (is) thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?


Revelation 1:18 - and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.


Revelation 6:8 - and I saw, and lo, a pale horse, and he who is sitting upon him -- his name is Death, and Hades (sheol/the grave) doth follow with him (including the mass grave?) and there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with famine, and with plague, and by the beasts of the land. (Animal beasts? or prophetic beasts/Governments? Some translations say, wild beasts/rogue governments?)

Revelation 20:13 - and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

Revelation 20:14 - and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

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1 Bible results for "Tartarus." Showing results 1-1.


2 Peter 2:4 - For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,


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About Sheol - (62 Bible results for "sheol")
  11 of 65   --   [The whole list - https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=YLT&quicksearch=sheol&startnumber=26 (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=YLT&quicksearch=sheol&startnumber=26)]


Job 14:13 - O that in Sheol Thou wouldst conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me. -- Oh LORD! If only you would hide me in Sheol!

Genesis 37:35 - and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, (Jacob) and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning for my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him. -- I will go to my grave mourning my son..

Genesis 42:38 - ...ye have brought down my (Jacob's) grey hairs in sorrow to sheol.'

1 Kings 2:6 - and thou hast done according to thy wisdom, and dost not let his old age go down in peace to Sheol.

Job 17:16 - [To] the parts of Sheol ye go down, If together in the dust we may rest.

Psalm 49:14, interlinear word for word - Like sheep in sheol they are laid, death shall feed on them (will consume them?) and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning. And their beauty will be consumed in sheol far from their dwelling. - other versions say "far from their princely mansions" or "far from their grand estates".

Proverbs 5:5 - Her feet are going down to death, Sheol do her steps take hold of.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going.

Isaiah 5:14 - Therefore hath Sheol enlarged herself, And hath opened her mouth without limit. And gone down hath its honour, and its multitude, And its noise, and its exulting one -- into her.

Isaiah 14:11 - Brought down to Sheol hath been thine excellency, The noise of thy psaltery, Under thee spread out hath been the worm, Yea, covering thee is the worm.

Isaiah 14:15 - Only -- unto Sheol thou art brought down, Unto the sides of the pit.

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PMIn these verses, it's obvious Jesus was referring to criminals and criminal acts

Which if any of these actions do you consider criminal acts?:
1. being angry at one's brother without cause
2. saying to one's brother, Empty fellow!
3. saying to one's brother, Rebel!
4. stumbling with one's eyes by lusting after a female TV newscaster
5. stumbling by using one's hand to steal $10 from one's brother

The Aramaic James 3:6 lacks Gehenna:
James 3:6, http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) and the tongue is a fire, a world of sin, like a forest is the tongue itself among our members; it defileth all of our body, and burneth the course of our generations which run (forward) as a wheel, and kindleth also itself with fire.
(Murdock) Now the tongue is a fire, and the world of sin is like a forest. And this tongue, which is one among our members, marreth our whole body; and it inflameth the series of our generations that roll on like a wheel; and it is itself on fire.
James 3:7
(Etheridge) For every nature of animals, and of birds, and reptiles of the sea, and of the dry land, have been subjected to the human nature;
(Murdock) For all natures of beasts and birds and reptiles, of the sea or land, are subjugated by the nature of man.

"For those who believe unrepentant folks go to 'hell'/torment after death, then come out for the 'Day' of Judgment, and then go back"
Upon what grounds do some believe that people sent to hell, get out of hell, get judged, and then go back to hell?

"The King James Version says - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. - But I thought the lake of fire is supposed to BE hell!"
Apparently not.

"if all things are made new, including the Earth - logically - does an eternal subterranean torture pit make any sense?"
No.

Quote"Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths (of darkness?) and handed them over to be kept (in deep darkness?) for the judgment of torment, (Not sure where they got "judgment of torment"? As the interlinear word for word says "for judgment being kept"."

The Aramaic NT mentions torment in 2 Peter 2:4-- but not the Greek.  Also, the Aramaic doesn't mention Tartarus anywhere.  Aramaic verses that contain the root 0:1909 are
Mt 4:24, 8:6, 8:29, 25:46
Mk 5:7, 6:48
Lk 8:28, 16:23, 16:24, 16:25, 16:28
Acts 20:38
2Peter 2:4, 2:8, 2:9
Rev 9:5, 11:10, 12:2, 14:10, 14:11, 18:7, 18:10, 18:15, 20:10.

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
Note: Valley Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which had been turned into a dump (because very sacrilegious things had been done there). Even the bodies of criminals (and animals) were thrown there, so fires were kept burning to keep the putrefaction and odor in check.

Note: There's actually some dispute about this. It may not have been true in the day Jesus walked in Israel.

Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:32:26 PM

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
Note: Valley Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which had been turned into a dump (because very sacrilegious things had been done there). Even the bodies of criminals (and animals) were thrown there, so fires were kept burning to keep the putrefaction and odor in check.

Note: There's actually some dispute about this. It may not have been true in the day Jesus walked in Israel.

I know, but I see no reason to doubt the Rabbi who wrote about it that way.. Plus the verses fit it.. :gsmile:

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 01:29:35 AM

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
In these verses, it's obvious Jesus was referring to criminals and criminal acts

Which if any of these actions do you consider criminal acts?:
1. being angry at one's brother without cause
2. saying to one's brother, Empty fellow!
3. saying to one's brother, Rebel!
4. stumbling with one's eyes by lusting after a female TV newscaster
5. stumbling by using one's hand to steal $10 from one's brother

   :Chinscratch: It doesn't really matter what I think, does it? But what God's Word says..

I think Jesus here was saying it is a sin (crime against God) if you hate your brother without cause (there are acceptable causes for hatred, I take it. Hate Stalin, hate Hitler, etc..) and if you continue and it progresses you could be in danger of court/sanhedrin.. or even could cause you to commit more crime when you lash out at them.. or become like Cain who slew his brother.. Better one cast the offending trigger finger away than your whole body be burned in Gehenna (Valley) - a horrible death/body thing to an Israelite..

4 and 5 of course are also sins/crimes/stumbling against God..

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 01:29:35 AM

The Aramaic James 3:6 lacks Gehenna:
James 3:6, http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) and the tongue is a fire, a world of sin, like a forest is the tongue itself among our members; it defileth all of our body, and burneth the course of our generations which run (forward) as a wheel, and kindleth also itself with fire.
(Murdock) Now the tongue is a fire, and the world of sin is like a forest. And this tongue, which is one among our members, marreth our whole body; and it inflameth the series of our generations that roll on like a wheel; and it is itself on fire.
James 3:7
(Etheridge) For every nature of animals, and of birds, and reptiles of the sea, and of the dry land, have been subjected to the human nature;
(Murdock) For all natures of beasts and birds and reptiles, of the sea or land, are subjugated by the nature of man.

Yes, the tongue though such a small member/part of the body, can start a mighty blaze - metaphor of course.

The reason for listing the verse is because some versions do include "Gehenna" and to explain to folks that it - a gehenna fire caused by the tongue - is not "hell".

I lean toward thinking some of the Aramaic Version is translated from Greek, as some letters, for instance would obviously have been written to gentile believers and writing to them in Aramaic would serve no purpose.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 01:29:35 AM

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
"For those who believe unrepentant folks go to 'hell'/torment after death, then come out for the 'Day' of Judgment, and then go back"
Upon what grounds do some believe that people sent to hell, get out of hell, get judged, and then go back to hell?

"The King James Version says - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. - But I thought the lake of fire is supposed to BE hell!"
Apparently not.

"if all things are made new, including the Earth - logically - does an eternal subterranean torture pit make any sense?"
No.

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM"Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths (of darkness?) and handed them over to be kept (in deep darkness?) for the judgment of torment, (Not sure where they got "judgment of torment"? As the interlinear word for word says "for judgment being kept"."

The Aramaic NT mentions torment in 2 Peter 2:4-- but not the Greek.  Also, the Aramaic doesn't mention Tartarus anywhere.  Aramaic verses that contain the root 0:1909

This is root of "torment"?

Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 01:29:35 AM
are
Mt 4:24, 8:6, 8:29, 25:46
Mk 5:7, 6:48
Lk 8:28, 16:23, 16:24, 16:25, 16:28
Acts 20:38
2Peter 2:4, 2:8, 2:9
Rev 9:5, 11:10, 12:2, 14:10, 14:11, 18:7, 18:10, 18:15, 20:10.

Mt 4:24 - Berean Study Bible
News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.
Mt 8:6 - Berean Literal Bible
and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying in the house paralyzed, grievously tormented."
Mt 8:29 - Berean Study Bible
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have You come here to torture us before the proper time?"
Mt 25:46 - Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' [Aramaic Bible in Plain English - And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life."]
-----------
Lk 8:28 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when he saw Yeshua, he screamed and he fell before him, and with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with you Yeshua, the Son of God Most High? I beg of you, do not punish me!"
Lk 16:23 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"And suffering in Sheol, he lifted up his eyes from afar off and he saw Abraham, and Lazar in his bosom."
:Chinscratch: All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going. Eccles. 9:10, Young's Literal
Douay-Rheims Bible
And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
:Chinscratch: but the (Greek) interlinear does use "in hades" (realm of the dead; perhaps the realm of the dead is the grave, but also all that which leads to the grave?!)
Lk 16:24 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"And he called in a loud voice and he said, 'My father, Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and moisten my tongue for me; behold, I am suffering in this flame.' " (flame, metaphor? like Gehenna fire when referring to Judgment, earthly and afterlife)
Lk 16:25 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"Abraham said to him, 'My son, remember that you have received your good things in your life and Lazar, his evil things, and now, behold, he is comforted here and you are suffering.' "
Lk 16:28 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
'For I have five brothers; he should go testify to them so that they would not come to this place of torment also.'
- but "place" - #G5117 also includes "metaphorically" and "the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly"

Acts 20:38 - to Theopholus (sp?) who was a Greek/gentile - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But they were all the more pained about that statement which he said, that they were not going to see his face again; and they accompanied him to the ship.
2Peter 2:4 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment,
Young's Literal Translation
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
2 Peter 2:8 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For while seeing and hearing, the righteous man dwelling among them from day to day, his righteous soul was tormented by lawless deeds,
2 Peter 2:9 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
THE LORD JEHOVAH knows to deliver from suffering those who reverence him, but he keeps the evil for the day of judgment while they are being tormented,
Young's Literal Translation
The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
Berean Study Bible
if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. ( :Chinscratch: the "punishment" -- Greek # 2849 - kolazó - chastise, curtail.. ..1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings. 2. to check, curb, restrain. or 3. to chastise, correct, punish -- is on 'day' of Judgment?

uh oh.. gotta run! Very interesting! thanks.. will paste/study the others later..
(Rev 9:5, 11:10, 12:2, 14:10, 14:11, 18:7, 18:10, 18:15, 20:10.)

(cont..)

Rev 9:5 -  Berean Literal Bible
And it was granted to them that they should not kill them, but that they shall torment them five months. And their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it might strike a man.
Young's Literal Translation
and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment is as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And it was given to them not to kill them, but that they would suffer pain for five months, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it attacks a man.
(locust-like(s) which are loud and can sting from their head & tail, torment mankind for five months; Rev 9)

Rev 11:10 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"And the inhabitants of The Earth will rejoice over them and they will celebrate and they will send gifts to each other, because of the two Prophets who tormented the inhabitants of The Earth." (The "two witnesses of course)

Rev 12:2 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And she was pregnant and she cried out and was in labor; she was also in anguish to give birth. (A great sign, a maiden gives birth)

Rev 14:10 - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Shall also drink from the wine of the passion of THE LORD JEHOVAH, which is mixed without dilution in the cup of his rage, and he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy Angels and before the Lamb." -- "Those who take the mark of the beast" -- (I believe this wrath is the apocalypse)
Berean Study Bible
he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. (This last phrase is meant to obscure the verse? Making one seek, study, search..?)
:Chinscratch: "Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed." Rev 18:6 - And the woman.. had a cup of gold in her hand, and it was full of the abominations and the filth of her immorality. (And the side effects of? Which she/great Babylon shall drink fully of her dissolution & the side effects of immorality..)

(sorry, I've fallen into one of my favorite wormholes, communicating bible prophecy)

next verse, Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

note - the smoke rises.. (imo, memory of apocalypse (the final results of God-less-ness & all fiery judgments/gehenna's-metaphor, will forever rise up in our consciousness) ... And... verse 15, another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle.."

Rev18:7 - 'As much as she - great city ($ity?) Babylon, who's forehead is "mystery babylon/mystery babble/confusion/all untruth - did glorify herself and did revel, so much torment and sorrow give to her, because in her heart she saith, I sit a queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;

Rev 18:10 - (9- "The kings (& politicians?) of the earth who committed fornication (are in bed with her, as the saying goes) and lived luxuriously with herwill weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, As they stand afar, from fear of her punishment, and they will say, "Woe, woe, woe, the great city Babylon! The Mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come!" (11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: merchandise of gold.. (etc.. right down to "the bodies and souls of men"/people (sex slave trade?)

Rev 18:15 - The merchants of these things, who were made rich by her, far off shall stand because of the fear of her torment, weeping, and sorrowing,

Rev 20:10 - Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And their Seducer, The Devil, was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone where The Beast and The False Prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for the eternity of eternities.
Young's Literal Translation
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Quote from: marie glen on September 25, 2018, 10:28:22 PMYes, the tongue though such a small member/part of the body, can start a mighty blaze - metaphor of course.

The tongue can injure others, opening them up to being attacked by demons.  Curses have resulted in people dying.

Proverbs 18:21 (HCSB)
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/18-21.htm
Life and death are in the power of the tongue,
and those who love it will eat its fruit.

QuoteThe reason for listing the verse is because some versions do include "Gehenna" and to explain to folks that it - a gehenna fire caused by the tongue - is not "hell".
I lean toward thinking some of the Aramaic Version is translated from Greek, as some letters, for instance would obviously have been written to gentile believers and writing to them in Aramaic would serve no purpose.

What are 2 letters you think weren't originally written in Aramaic?

QuoteThis is root of "torment"?

Yes.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?s=bibles&q=hades&t=lxx
Ecclesiastes 9:10 LXX
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/ecclesiastes/9-10.html
Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do,
do with all thy might;
for there is no work, nor device,
nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in Hades wither thou goest.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 26, 2018, 06:05:26 AM
What are 2 letters you think weren't originally written in Aramaic?

Well, Corinth is a city of Greece. So I would say the 2 letters written to the Corinthians. Also, I would think the 2 to the Thessalonians, and to the Philippians -- but perhaps the believers were all Jewish who were not Hellenized :dontknow: I'm not really very concerned about it.. As I believe the teacher to be the Spirit of God and He has His ways. One of the the ways He teaches me is through the Greek interlinear word for word translations.. Strong's etc.. Also comparing versions.. then with cross references and also lots of available commentaries now at our fingertips also.. some better than others of course..

What I believe is Jesus likely spoke Aramaic, even though Hellenization was so widespread. So likely James and John wrote in aramaic.. and Matthew and (Israelite secretary) Mark.. But Luke was a gentile/Greek and he was writing to a gentile/Greek.. so I figure that was likely penned in the Greek..

From "History of Turkey" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Turkey - The process of Hellenization that began with Alexander's conquest accelerated under Roman rule, and by the early centuries AD the local languages and cultures had become extinct, being largely replaced by ancient Greek language and culture. ( Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. p. 61;  The Elements of Hittite, Cambridge University Press)

So, the letters of Revelation, to the Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians.. though of course they may have been made up of largely Hebrew believers, or Hebrew believers were there to interpret Aramaic to Greek.. :dontknow:

Paul, was obviously very educated.. so Greek would be no problem for him..

Quote from: DavidFord on September 26, 2018, 06:05:26 AM
https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?s=bibles&q=hades&t=lxx
Ecclesiastes 9:10 LXX
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lxx/ecclesiastes/9-10.html
Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do,
do with all thy might;
for there is no work, nor device,
nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in Hades wither thou goest.

I don't get the point.. I know the translators translated sheol, hades, tartarus, pit & gehenna (valley or judgment) to read 'hell' but I do not believe they are the lake of fire.. nor any of them 'hell'..

sheol being the Hebrew of the Old Testament where the verse is. "where all go/all meet in sheol" and Jacob said he would go sorrowing to sheol.. would go to his grave sorrowing.. and as you wrote, where there is neither knowledge/knowing, nor work/doing..

So I wouldn't consider hades to be strictly interchangeable with sheol, though it is :mshock: - but (imo) hades of the bible is the gray area, the dark, outer darkness, sin, which all ends in "the grave" / "the place of the dead" ultimately - sin = death. But in Greek myth it is a place and region housing the dead.. I do not believe this to be the bible 'hades' - and authors may not have even used the word hades at all.. :dontknow: how do we really know? I mean originally, in the original verses as written.

It may have been common knowledge among Israelites that hades, place of the dead, was "the grave"/was still sheol..
   :Peace2:

Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 10:48:36 PM

Quote from: DavidFord on September 26, 2018, 06:05:26 AM
What are 2 letters you think weren't originally written in Aramaic?

Well, Corinth is a city of Greece. So I would say the 2 letters written to the Corinthians. Also, I would think the 2 to the Thessalonians, and to the Philippians -- but perhaps the believers were all Jewish who were not Hellenized

Do you think Paul wrote the Aramaic "Maran atha" to Greek speakers in Corinth?

1 Cor 16:22 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Cor.%2016%3A22&version=NABRE
If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed.  Marana tha.
Footnotes:
16:22 Accursed: literally, "anathema." This expression (cf. 1 Cor 12:3) is a formula for exclusion from the community; it may imply here a call to self-examination before celebration of the Eucharist, in preparation for the Lord's coming and judgment (cf. 1 Cor 11:17–34).
Marana tha: an Aramaic expression, probably used in the early Christian liturgy. As understood here ("O Lord, come!"), it is a prayer for the early return of Christ. If the Aramaic words are divided differently (Maran atha, "Our Lord has come"), it becomes a credal declaration. The former interpretation is supported by what appears to be a Greek equivalent of this acclamation in Rev 22:20 "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!"

talking about Rev 22:20
https://bible.org/seriespage/revelation-21-22
....  Maranatha (cf. I Cor. 16:22). It is possible to interpret this in several ways:
1. if maranatha, then it is "Our Lord has come"
2.  marana tha, then it is "Our Lord, Come!"
....We learn from the _Didache_ 10:6 that this was the liturgical closing to the Lord's Supper service in John's day.

For 1 Cor 13:3, was it originally "I might boast," or "I will burn"?

1 Cor 13:3
https://biblia.com/bible/gs-netbible/1Co12.27-13.13
If I give away everything I own,
and if I give over my body in order to boast,^1
but do not have love,
I receive no benefit.
1 tc The reading καυχήσωμαι (kauchēsōmai, "I might boast") is well supported by 𝔓46 א A B 048 33 1739* pc co Hiermss. The competing reading, καυθήσομαι (kauthēsomai, "I will burn"), is found in C D F G L 81 1175 1881* al latt and a host of patristic writers. From this reading other variants were obviously derived: καυθήσωμαι (kauthēsōmai), a future subjunctive ("I might burn") read by the Byzantine text and a few others (Ψ 1739c 1881c 𝔐); and καυθῇ (kauthē, "it might be burned") read by 1505 pc. On an external level, the Alexandrian reading is obviously superior, though the Western and Byzantine readings need to be accounted for. (The following discussion is derived largely from TCGNT 497–98). Internally, καυχήσωμαι is superior for the following reasons: (1) Once the Church started suffering persecution and martyrdom by fire, the v.l. naturally arose. Once there, it is difficult to see why any scribe would intentionally change it to καυχήσωμαι. (2) Involving as it does the change of just two letters (χ to θ [ch to th], ω to ο [ō to o]), this reading could be accomplished without much fanfare. Yet, it appears cumbersome in the context, both because of the passive voice and especially the retention of the first person ("If I give up my body that I may be burned"). A more logical word would have been the third person passive, καυθῇ, as read in 1505 ("If I give up my body that it may be burned"). (3) Although the connection between giving up one's body and boasting is ambiguous, this very ambiguity has all the earmarks of being from Paul. It may have the force of giving up one's body into slavery. In any event, it looks to be the harder reading. Incidentally, the Byzantine reading is impossible because the future subjunctive did not occur in Koine Greek. As the reading of the majority of Byzantine minuscules, its roots are clearly post-Koine and as such is a "grammatical monstrosity that cannot be attributed to Paul" (TCGNT 498). Cf. also the notes in BDF §28; MHT 2:219.

Quote from: marie glen on September 25, 2018, 08:49:41 PM

Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:32:26 PM

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
Note: Valley Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which had been turned into a dump (because very sacrilegious things had been done there). Even the bodies of criminals (and animals) were thrown there, so fires were kept burning to keep the putrefaction and odor in check.

Note: There's actually some dispute about this. It may not have been true in the day Jesus walked in Israel.

I know, but I see no reason to doubt the Rabbi who wrote about it that way.. Plus the verses fit it.. :gsmile:

Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

Quote from: marie glen on September 25, 2018, 10:28:22 PM

   :Chinscratch: It doesn't really matter what I think, does it? But what God's Word says..

I think Jesus here was saying it is a sin (crime against God) if you hate your brother without cause (there are acceptable causes for hatred, I take it. Hate Stalin, hate Hitler, etc..) and if you continue and it progresses you could be in danger of court/sanhedrin.. or even could cause you to commit more crime when you lash out at them.. or become like Cain who slew his brother.. Better one cast the offending trigger finger away than your whole body be burned in Gehenna (Valley) - a horrible death/body thing to an Israelite..

4 and 5 of course are also sins/crimes/stumbling against God..

Yes, but people who hate other people usually think they have a cause and often think it is a stronger cause than it might actually be. That makes it hard to be sure if any of our causes for hate are actually valid.

I suspect Jesus may be issuing a warning about how dangerous and harmful unchecked hatred can be especially if the person you hate is in close quarters to you. Which is similar to what you say but I'm not sure I'd suggest there are actual acceptable causes even though avoiding hating people in near impossible.

QuoteHmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

Well, thank God we have this verse then:

1 Corinthians 3
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hebrews 12
29For our God is a consuming fire.

Deuteronomy 4
24For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

You can pair this with any verse speaking of fire too, as it does not specify only certain types of fire will save people, but fire in general. As God is a consuming fire, we go through Him for salvation. "Grace through Faith" "Jesus is the author and finisher if our faith" "No one can go to the Father, except through me" etc.

The last part I just realized how significant it relates to salvation, with the word "through" in there.

Yes, but I don't think that fire is the be all and end all of Gehenna.

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PM

Quote from: marie glen on September 25, 2018, 08:49:41 PM

Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:32:26 PM

Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2018, 09:41:35 PM
Note: Valley Gehenna was a valley outside Jerusalem which had been turned into a dump (because very sacrilegious things had been done there). Even the bodies of criminals (and animals) were thrown there, so fires were kept burning to keep the putrefaction and odor in check.

Note: There's actually some dispute about this. It may not have been true in the day Jesus walked in Israel.

I know, but I see no reason to doubt the Rabbi who wrote about it that way.. Plus the verses fit it.. :gsmile:

Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

Quote from: marie glen on September 25, 2018, 10:28:22 PM

   :Chinscratch: It doesn't really matter what I think, does it? But what God's Word says..

I think Jesus here was saying it is a sin (crime against God) if you hate your brother without cause (there are acceptable causes for hatred, I take it. Hate Stalin, hate Hitler, etc..) and if you continue and it progresses you could be in danger of court/sanhedrin.. or even could cause you to commit more crime when you lash out at them.. or become like Cain who slew his brother.. Better one cast the offending trigger finger away than your whole body be burned in Gehenna (Valley) - a horrible death/body thing to an Israelite..

4 and 5 of course are also sins/crimes/stumbling against God..

Yes, but people who hate other people usually think they have a cause and often think it is a stronger cause than it might actually be. That makes it hard to be sure if any of our causes for hate are actually valid.

I suspect Jesus may be issuing a warning about how dangerous and harmful unchecked hatred can be especially if the person you hate is in close quarters to you. Which is similar to what you say but I'm not sure I'd suggest there are actual acceptable causes even though avoiding hating people in near impossible.

Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

On forgiving:

Mt 6 (based on Younan, dukhrana.com)
9-15. You therefore pray like this:  ....
Give us the bread
of our need this day,
and forgive us our offences,
as we also have forgiven those who have offended us.   ....
For if you forgive men their transgressions,
your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men,
your Father will also not forgive you your transgressions.

Lk 11:4
And forgive us our sins
for we also forgive all who have offended us.   ....

Mt 18
21. Then Keepa [Peter] drew near to him and said, "Mari [my Lord], if my brother is at fault with me, how many times should I forgive him-- up to seven times?" 22. Yeshua said to him,
"I do not say to you up to seven times,
rather, up to seventy times seventy-seven.
23. Because of this the kingdom of Heaven is likened to a malka [king]
who desired to take an accounting from his servants.
24. And when he began to take an accounting,
they brought to him one who owed ten thousand talents.
25. And when he had no (way) to repay,
his lord commanded that he be sold, he and his wife and his children and everything that he owns, and he repay.
26. And that servant fell down (and) saged [bowed or prostrated before] him and said,
'Mari [my lord], be patient with me, and everything I will repay to you.'
27. And the lord of that servant had compassion
and released him and forgave him his debt.
28. Now that servant went out and found one of (his) fellow servants who owed him one hundred denarii,
and he seized him and was choking him and said to him,
"Give to me that which you owe to me."
29. And that fellow servant fell down upon his feet beseeching him and said to him,
'Be patient with me and I will repay you.'
30. And he did not want (to),
but went (and) cast him into prison until he paid him what he owed him.
31. And when their fellow servants saw the thing that had happened, it saddened them very much,
and they came (and) made known to their lord all that happened.
32. Then his lord called him and said to him that,
'Evil servant!
I forgave you all of the debt because you beseeched me.
33. Was it not right for you also to have mercy on your fellow servant
as I had mercy on you?'
34. And his lord was angry and delivered him to the scourgers until he repaid everything that he owed him.
35. Likewise, Abbi [my Father] who is in heaven will do to you unless
you do forgive (each) man his brother his offenses from your heart."

Mk 11
25. And when you stand to pray,
forgive anything that you have against anyone,
that your Father who is in heaven
also may forgive you your transgressions.
26. But if you do not forgive,
neither will your Father who is in heaven
forgive you your transgressions."

Lk 23
34. And Yeshua was saying,
"Abba [Father], forgive them
for they do not know what they are doing."
And they divided his clothing and cast lots for them.

Acts 7:59-8:1
And they were stoning Astaphanos [Stephen] while he prayed, and he said
"Maran [our Lord] Yeshua, receive rukhi [my spirit]!"
60. And after he kneeled down, he cried out in a loud voice and said,
"Maran, do not cause this sin to stand against them!"
And after he had said this, he lied down.
Now Shaul [Saul] consented and participated in his murder.

On blessing:

Mt 5
38. You have heard that it has been said that,
'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39. But I say to you that,
you should not stand against evil,
but who hits you upon your right cheek,
turn also to him the other.
40. And he that desires to go to court with you and take your coat,
leave to him also your cloak.   ....
43. You have heard that it has been said to,
'rkhm [be friendly to, be compassionate toward] your neighbor
and hate your enemy.'
44. But I say to you,
akhbu [love] your enemies,
and bless those that curse you,
and do that which is pleasing to those who hate you,
and pray for those that take you by force and persecute you,
45. so that you may be the sons of your Father who is in heaven,
He that raises shemsheh [His sun]
upon the taba [good]
and upon the bisha [evil],
and causes to descend metreh [His rain]
upon the kana [just]
and upon the aiola [unjust].
46. For if you love those that love you,
what reward have you?
Do not even the tax-collectors do this?
47. And if you greet in shlama [peace] only your brothers,
what more are you doing?
Do not even the tax-collectors do this?
48. You therefore be perfect,
as your Father who is in heaven is perfect."

Lk 6
31. And as you desire that the sons of men do to you,
you also do likewise to them.
32. For if you love those who love you,
what is your blessing?
For even sinners, they love those who love them.
33. And if you do good to those who do good to you,
what is your blessing?
For even sinners do likewise.
34. And if you lend to he who you expect to be repaid by him,
where is your blessing?
For even the sinners lend to sinners that they might likewise be repaid.
35. But love your enemies,
and do good to them,
and lend and do not cut off the hope of man,
and great will be your reward,
and you will be the sons of the Most High.
Because He is pleasant to the evil and to the cruel,
36. therefore be merciful,
as your Father is also merciful.
37. Do not judge,
and you will not be judged.
Do not condemn,
and you will not be condemned.
Release,
and you will be released.
38. Give,
and it will be given to you,
in good measure and pressed down and abundant it will pour into your robe.
For in that measure-- the measure with which you measure--
it will be measured to you."

Romans 12 (NKJV)
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.   ....
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord [original Aramaic:  Allaha].
20 Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 27, 2018, 05:20:03 PMWell, thank God we have this verse then:
1 Corinthians 3
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Hebrews 12
29For our God is a consuming fire.
Deuteronomy 4
24For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

You can pair this with any verse speaking of fire too, as it does not specify only certain types of fire will save people, but fire in general. As God is a consuming fire, we go through Him for salvation. "Grace through Faith" "Jesus is the author and finisher if our faith" "No one can go to the Father, except through me" etc.
The last part I just realized how significant it relates to salvation, with the word "through" in there.

Mt 3 (based on Younan)
10. Now behold, the axe is placed on the root of the trees.
All trees, therefore, that bring forth not good fruit
will be cut and thrown in the fire.
11. I baptize you with water unto repentance,
but he that will come after me is stronger than me.
I'm not worthy to remove his sandals.
He will baptize you by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] and by fire.
12. He whose winnowing fan is in his hand will cleanse his threshing-floors
and will gather wheat unto his granaries,
and the chaff he will burn in the fire that does not extinguish."

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PMpeople who hate other people usually think they have a cause and often think it is a stronger cause than it might actually be. That makes it hard to be sure if any of our causes for hate are actually valid.
I suspect Jesus may be issuing a warning about how dangerous and harmful unchecked hatred can be especially if the person you hate is in close quarters to you. Which is similar to what you say but I'm not sure I'd suggest there are actual acceptable causes even though avoiding hating people in near impossible.

Christians are supposed to imitate Jesus, who is God.  Who, and what, did Jesus hate, if anything/anybody?
"a warning about how dangerous and harmful unchecked hatred can be"
Held-onto unforgiveness and hatred once led someone to call for the hated person to get killed in a particular form of violent manner.  And the hated person was suddenly killed in just such a manner (plus a 2nd person).

Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 10:48:36 PMWell, Corinth is a city of Greece. So I would say the 2 letters written to the Corinthians. .... but perhaps the believers were all Jewish who were not Hellenized

As it was originally written, do you think 2 Cor 2:1 opened with:  'for'?  'but'?  'and'?  the Aramaic 'dyn'?

http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay172co.htm
2 Corinthians 2:1:
TEXT: "·For I decided this within myself"
EVIDENCE: p46 B 0223 33 630 1739 1881 2495 one lat syr(p,h,pal) most cop(north) one cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASVn RSV
RANK: C

NOTES: "·But I decided this within myself"
EVIDENCE: S A C Db,c G K P Psi 081 81 104 614 1241 Byz Lect most lat vg
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASV NASV

OTHER: "·And I decided this within myself"
EVIDENCE: D*

OTHER: "·I decided this within myself"
EVIDENCE: some cop(north) most cop(south)

OTHER: "·So I decided this within myself"
EVIDENCE: none
TRANSLATIONS: NIV NEB TEV

COMMENTS: Despite the limited evidence for the word "for," a majority of the UBS Textual Committee preferred it because verse 1 gives the reason for Paul's delay in visiting the Corinthians.

2Corinthians 2:1 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) But [Aramaic: dyn] I have determined this in myself,
that I will not with sorrow again come to you.
(Murdock) And I determined this with myself,
that I would not again come to you in sadness.

"Another Aramaic word which causes problems for translators is DYN which really has no equivalent in English, but it is more of a 'thought-switcher' - some English words come close to translating it - like 'And, For, But, Now, However [Then, Thereupon]'." - Lataster, 115.

Quote from: DavidFord on September 28, 2018, 03:24:00 AM
Mt 3 (based on Younan)
10. Now behold, the axe is placed on the root of the trees.
All trees, therefore, that bring forth not good fruit
will be cut and thrown in the fire.
11. I baptize you with water unto repentance,
but he that will come after me is stronger than me.
I'm not worthy to remove his sandals.
He will baptize you by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] and by fire.
12. He whose winnowing fan is in his hand will cleanse his threshing-floors
and will gather wheat unto his granaries,
and the chaff he will burn in the fire that does not extinguish.

I don't see a contradiction of this to the other verse I gave. Saved through fire, or whatever. 1 Corinthians specifically says that the work is burned up, not the person itself. They may suffer loss from it, and it may be painful, but they are still saved as a result.

I have Lamsa in my Esword, and it says "saved from the fire" while all my other translations say basically "saved through fire." I personally think it makes more sense to pass through fire(God a consuming fire) than from it.

YLT 1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange at the fiery suffering among you that is coming to try you, as if a strange thing were happening to you

Again, even the trials God that are sent to try us are fiery, so there is a purpose to that fire.

CLV says "conflagration" for this verse. Though good for reference and literalness, they have a lot of strange words in it, like this one.

Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 10:48:36 PMAlso, I would think the 2 to the Thessalonians, and to the Philippians -- but perhaps the believers were all Jewish who were not Hellenized

In the original 2 Thess 2:13, did it have:  'as firstfruits'?  'from the beginning'?

http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay22the.htm#2thess
2 Thessalonians 2:13:
TEXT: "God picked pl^you as firstfruits for salvation"
EVIDENCE: B F G P 33 81 1739 1881 some lat vg syr(h) cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: ASVn RSVn NASVn NIVn NEBn TEV
RANK: C
NOTES: "God picked pl^you from the beginning for salvation"
EVIDENCE: S D K L Psi 104 614 630 1241 2495 Byz Lect some lat syr(p) cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEVn
COMMENTS: There is only one letter's difference between "as firstfruits" and "from the beginning." The UBS Textual Committee preferred "firstfruits" because the prepositional phrase "from the beginning" is not used elsewhere by Paul while he uses the word "firstfruits" six other times, and in two of those places some copyists have changed "firstfruits" to "from the beginning."

2Thess 2:13 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Murdock) But we are bound to give thanks to God always,
on your account, my brethren beloved of our Lord,
that God hath from the beginning [Aramaic:  resita:  best, choicest, excellent; beginning, fruits, first-fruits] chosen you unto life,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
and through faith in the truth.

CAL for it:
http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=ry%24y+N%20&cits=all

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 28, 2018, 04:03:04 AMI don't see a contradiction of this to the other verse I gave

Nor I.

QuoteI have Lamsa in my Esword

Lamsa isn't the ideal when it comes to translating the NT, since he downplayed the supernatural, and in several places conformed things to the way they are in Greek.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

Yup, but I think we can hate the awful things we did. The problem we have is a desire for vengeance and an incapacity to separate what people do from who they are. We always define people according to either their best act or their worst act and one will always eclipse the other.

Quote from: CST on September 28, 2018, 12:51:05 PM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

Yup, but I think we can hate the awful things we did. The problem we have is a desire for vengeance and an incapacity to separate what people do from who they are. We always define people according to either their best act or their worst act and one will always eclipse the other.

I think it's good that you wrote "the awful things we did, for humanity is one and we have done some exceedingly awful things..

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

You're right! ...so I'm thinking the interlinear is likely closer to "dislike" which I've long thought is a sin, an imperfection..

But now I see the verse actually doesn't say "hate w/o cause" but "be angry w/o cause".

It's interesting that Luke 14:26 says, If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple.

And of course we know, by other verses, that we should not hate our family!

The interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/14-26.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/greek/3404.htm
3404. miseó ► Definition: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less

So of course what He means is we should love Him more than anyone else...

And the verse I was thinking of, doesn't say "hate" at all.. :doh:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 28, 2018, 04:03:04 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on September 28, 2018, 03:24:00 AM
Mt 3 (based on Younan)
10. Now behold, the axe is placed on the root of the trees.
All trees, therefore, that bring forth not good fruit
will be cut and thrown in the fire.
11. I baptize you with water unto repentance,
but he that will come after me is stronger than me.
I'm not worthy to remove his sandals.
He will baptize you by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] and by fire.
12. He whose winnowing fan is in his hand will cleanse his threshing-floors
and will gather wheat unto his granaries,
and the chaff he will burn in the fire that does not extinguish.

I don't see a contradiction of this to the other verse I gave. Saved through fire, or whatever. 1 Corinthians specifically says that the work is burned up, not the person itself. They may suffer loss from it, and it may be painful, but they are still saved as a result.

I have Lamsa in my Esword, and it says "saved from the fire" while all my other translations say basically "saved through fire." I personally think it makes more sense to pass through fire(God a consuming fire) than from it.

YLT 1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange at the fiery suffering among you that is coming to try you, as if a strange thing were happening to you

Again, even the trials God that are sent to try us are fiery, so there is a purpose to that fire.

CLV says "conflagration" for this verse. Though good for reference and literalness, they have a lot of strange words in it, like this one.

Often the wrath of God is likened to fiery judgment, fiery Gehenna, etc. But what most Et folks don't seem to notice is the fiery nature of war, etc and the fiery judgments upon nations in the past and upon Israel in 70 a.d.. All of which took place on Earth.

And believers being baptized with the Spirit and with fire - occurs upon the Earth, during this lifetime. (Though there may be some indication of afterlife 'punishment' (fruit?) for believers who very much erred..(?)

But, that may also be referring to fiery trial upon Earth as in warnings spoken before 70 A.D. referring to the fiery razing of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

And to latter day saints a warning of the coming "day of the LORD" / apocalypse ("unveiling" when man's castles in the air and "towers fall" Isaiah 30:25)

And in between those dates - 70 A.D. and Apocalypse - there's plenty of fiery trials to go around..

I think the idea of a hellish, literal fiery afterlife, is an old world superstition.. and an ancient king/priest collusion to keep the people pliant and obedient..

But it's SO easy to still have the idea of (literal) fire as afterlife punishment or correction, and have it color some of our understanding. But originally, in the Old Testament, I don't think there was any fire thought to be involved with the afterlife.

:Chinscratch: These are the four verses which mention a/the lake of fire:

Revelation 19:20 Then the (world?) beast was captured, and with him the false prophet(/teacher/teaching? & "strong delusion" of 'last' days?) who worked signs (modern miracles & wonders?) in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive (active?) into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

     " This is the second death."

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever "to the ages of the ages - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-10.htm (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-10.htm).

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Young's Literal Translation
and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
          https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-15.htm
     https://biblehub.com/greek/906.htm - 906. balló ► Definition: (a) I cast, throw, rush, (b) often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop. "1. with force and effort: βάλλειν τινα ῥαπισμασι to smite one with slaps, to buffet" - I've often wondered about this.. but I believe this verse applies to the last or end of judgment 'day' - which because of the spacing of the fall holy days (Lev 23) I think will last 500 years - Now I'm thinking, anyone who holds out that long.. the extreme of letting choice (other than His) run its course.. all degrees of - for truth's sake, allowed to fruit. So if one has held out so hard of heart, to that distant date.. why wouldn't the Father "cast" or "throw" them.. [I never thought of it that way before.. I actually think no humans will go to the LOF - I know not many, or any other believers believe this..]

I also tend to think of Armageddon (thermo-nuclear?) and the fire after the millennium that consumes those surrounding the new city, Rev 20:9 (not the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21) as 'lakes' of fire..

:2c: just tossing around some ideas and thoughts..

I see the fire as Spiritual fire anyways MG, what would torturing someone with literal fire accomplish anyway?

Had a thought recently that the Light of the world, God's Light, had its source in fire. Besides, Strong's, when speaking of light, always has "fire/light" in the definition.

QuoteBut what most Et folks don't seem to notice is the fiery nature of war, etc and the fiery judgments upon nations in the past and upon Israel in 70 a.d.. All of which took place on Earth.

Even if some passages refer to a historical even that already happened, who says it cannot have more than one fulfillment? If verses, or even whole books, only refer to a past historical event, what benefit is that Spiritually speaking? It is like reading a children's story, then concluding how trivial it is by only seeing it as something historical, not something more. The letter of the law, not the Spirit of the law...

Speaking of trials, it speaks of them as not strange. You mean to say that the 70AD destruction happens all the time? Lol. I see it as to say we each are tested in ways that are not strange to us. Yes, that may be different than another, but still have all of our own trials.

Young's has "coming to try you" so I see that supporting more what I just mentioned.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 28, 2018, 06:47:08 PM
I see the fire as Spiritual fire anyways MG, what would torturing someone with literal fire accomplish anyway?

Had a thought recently that the Light of the world, God's Light, had its source in fire. Besides, Strong's, when speaking of light, always has "fire/light" in the definition.

  :thumbsup: Amen.. even the vitality we think of as the "spark" of life.. (which I think is God)

Quote
Even if some passages refer to a historical even that already happened, who says it cannot have more than one fulfillment?

   :thumbsup: I think most, if not all (?) prophecy has a short range and more or less 'immediate' fulfillment, and a broad range, 'end' of days fulfillment..

And I think some prophecy has repeated fulfillments..

Quote
If verses, or even whole books, only refer to a past historical event, what benefit is that Spiritually speaking? It is like reading a children's story, then concluding how trivial it is by only seeing it as something historical, not something more. The letter of the law, not the Spirit of the law...

Speaking of trials, it speaks of them as not strange. You mean to say that the 70AD destruction happens all the time? Lol. I see it as to say we each are tested in ways that are not strange to us. Yes, that may be different than another, but still have all of our own trials.

Young's has "coming to try you" so I see that supporting more what I just mentioned.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PM


Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

it's interesting that the soul n body are said to suffer destruction in Gehenna but never the 'spirit' of  a person...Paul also spoke of a particular mans body being destroyed that his spirit might be saved on the Day of the Lord....very pertinent IMO.

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PM

Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

I go back and forth between believing the "lake/pond'crucible of fire" is an afterlife temporary refinement process that occurs on and throughout Judgment 'Day'...

Or, thinking it only comes into play at the very end of (long) Judgment 'Day' at which time, or that is, by that time, all having been drawn to Jesus and reconciled to God - thus - no humans in LOF. But that it is annihilation, and w/o God's intervention the end result of all of us.

Which makes sense considering the beast & false prophet - institutions of mankind 'active' at the time of Jesus' return are thrown there, to the 2nd death, in other words never to rise again (hooray!) (Rev 19)

BUT! :Chinscratch: A temporary refining process seems to fit with the devil being thrown there to ages of the ages..

Yet! The 'devil' is not physical, but spiritual only.. So perhaps what would be annihilation for a person, perhaps is not for rebel angels.

But one thing - besides literal burning! - I cannot believe, is God raises all unbelievers - chosen by Him to remain unbelievers until afterlife - to simply toss or dump them into the lake of fire, no matter what it is. Whether it is 'forever' as Et believes or temporary. I just think the whole afterlife hell is old world superstition that is a stronghold of belief, so it colors many things way beyond what we are aware of. So I often find myself reflecting back upon the Old Testament view - or the view it seems to me to be presented, that death is death, but God raises. And the prophets talked about a Kingdom ruled by God upon Earth.. Paradise, the blueprint of God, restored, and this dark comedy being let to (in most part) run its course, is simply His teaching all good from evil - Perhaps it is no coincidence that evil is the very opposite spelling as live.

I do think also that Armageddon will be a lake of fire, as the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in 1945. And believe it is the gathering of the tares (living at the time). The tares gathered to Armageddon.

Quote from: darryl on September 28, 2018, 07:30:49 PM

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PM


Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too 

it's interesting that the soul n body are said to suffer destruction in Gehenna but never the 'spirit' of  a person...Paul also spoke of a particular mans body being destroyed that his spirit might be saved on the Day of the Lord....very pertinent IMO.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: marie glen on September 28, 2018, 05:59:07 PM

Quote from: CST on September 28, 2018, 12:51:05 PM

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 28, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
Wait aren't we supposed to not hate anyone including Hitler and Stalin?

Yup, but I think we can hate the awful things we did. The problem we have is a desire for vengeance and an incapacity to separate what people do from who they are. We always define people according to either their best act or their worst act and one will always eclipse the other.

I think it's good that you wrote "the awful things we did, for humanity is one and we have done some exceedingly awful things..

Dang, ironically I think I meant to write they, if I'd meant we I'd have used 'do' instead of did because we haven't stopped being evil.

Quote from: marie glen on September 28, 2018, 06:56:03 PM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 28, 2018, 06:47:08 PM
I see the fire as Spiritual fire anyways MG, what would torturing someone with literal fire accomplish anyway?

Had a thought recently that the Light of the world, God's Light, had its source in fire. Besides, Strong's, when speaking of light, always has "fire/light" in the definition.

  :thumbsup: Amen.. even the vitality we think of as the "spark" of life.. (which I think is God)

Quote
Even if some passages refer to a historical even that already happened, who says it cannot have more than one fulfillment?

   :thumbsup: I think most, if not all (?) prophecy has a short range and more or less 'immediate' fulfillment, and a broad range, 'end' of days fulfillment..

And I think some prophecy has repeated fulfillments..

Quote
If verses, or even whole books, only refer to a past historical event, what benefit is that Spiritually speaking? It is like reading a children's story, then concluding how trivial it is by only seeing it as something historical, not something more. The letter of the law, not the Spirit of the law...

Speaking of trials, it speaks of them as not strange. You mean to say that the 70AD destruction happens all the time? Lol. I see it as to say we each are tested in ways that are not strange to us. Yes, that may be different than another, but still have all of our own trials.

Young's has "coming to try you" so I see that supporting more what I just mentioned.

:thumbsup:

Yes, but if in Jesus's day Gehenna is ia literal dump then that is what it primarily is and what you would expect to give it its main meaning fire and teeth gnashing are just picturesque stuff to make the image more emotive.

Quote from: darryl on September 28, 2018, 07:30:49 PM

Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:32:38 PM


Hmm, perhaps but the concept is starting to concern me. When people throw something out so that it might end up in the rubbish tip they don't do it with the idea they might go back for it later. It's usually a final, irrevocable decision and thus suggests that consignment by God to Gehenna (Hell) is final. Obviously, that's not an idea that serves UR too well.

it's interesting that the soul n body are said to suffer destruction in Gehenna but never the 'spirit' of  a person...Paul also spoke of a particular mans body being destroyed that his spirit might be saved on the Day of the Lord....very pertinent IMO.

Very given that the context makes clear the soul is invulnerable to absolutely everything else. Can you direct me to when Paul said, biblically the spirit is usually seen as an animating agency and has little to nothing to do with a person or their identity.

1 Corinthians
Young's Literal Translation
to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 :thumbsup: ..which I think the interlinear suggests "the flesh" not as the body (in this case) but as the lower character and nature, or that is, the nature, character of a person without being in union with God (not yet born again)

..."to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/5-5.htm - I wish I could find an interlinear that is easily copy/pasted..

"the flesh" sarx - https://biblehub.com/greek/4561.htm -

sarx: flesh
Original Word: σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: sarx
Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)
Short Definition: flesh, body
Definition: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
HELPS Word-studies
4561 sárksproperly, flesh ("carnal"), merely of human origin or empowerment.

[4561 /sárks ("flesh") is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed, flesh (what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in (Gal 2:20).]

4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.

---------------

And "spirit" - https://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.
HELPS Word-studies
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]


Word Origin
from pneó --
-- # G4154 - Definition: I blow, breathe, as the wind. (https://biblehub.com/greek/4154.htm (https://biblehub.com/greek/4154.htm)

     :dontknow:

...to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1Co 5:5, based on
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
http://dukhrana.com
and [that] you should deliver this [one] l'satana [to Satan/satan/Adversary/adversaries] l'abdana [for the ruin] d'pagreh [of his body]
d'b'rukh [that in spirit] he will live b'yomeh [in His day] d'Maran [of our Lord] Jesus Christ.

Searching for "root ID" 1929 on
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/lexicon-search
returns 4 words with definitions of
body; flesh; dead body, carcass         
carnal [one]; fleshly            
carnally; according to the flesh, bodily            
carnal; bodily; fleshly

and a Strong's Hebrew H6297.

Strong's Concordance 6297. peger
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6297.htm
peger: corpse, carcass
Original Word: פָּ֫גֶר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: peger
Phonetic Spelling: (peh'gher)
Short Definition: corpses
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from pagar
Definition
corpse, carcass
NASB Translation
carcasses (1), corpse (1), corpses (12), dead bodies (3), dead* (2), remains (2).

Searching for Root ID 5 at
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/lexicon-search
yields the info

Strong's Hebrew H6, CH7; H12, H13; H9.
ABD lose, go astray; destroy, perish, be of no use, be hurt   Aphel: cause to be lost, destroy, ruin      re: sheep = go astray, re: grass = wither, re: wineskins = worn out   
ABDNA loss; destruction; waste, ruin; son of destruction = one who is ruined; see also Abaddon, H11, G3
ABIDA perishing [one], lost [one]; lost; pp used as noun & adj

I'm reminded of
Rom 1:27, "....And male with male they acted with shame, and received in themselves the payment that was just for their error." -- based on Magiera interlinear
Luke 15:13 (KJV) And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

Strong's Concordance 6. abad
https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/6.htm
abad: to perish
Original Word: אָבַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: abad
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-bad')
Short Definition: perish
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to perish
NASB Translation
annihilate (2), annihilated (1), been lost (1), broken (1), corrupts (1), destroy (33), destroyed (15), destroying (2), destroys (2), destruction (2), dying (2), fail (1), fails (1), give up as lost (1), lacking (1), lost (12), make vanish (1), makes to perish (1), no (2), obliterate (1), perish (61), perished (16), perishes (7), perishing (2), ruined (4), surely perish (3), take (1), utterly destroy (1), wandering (1), wastes (1), wiped (1).

Strong's Concordance 7. abad
https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/7.htm
abad: to perish
Original Word: אֲבַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: abad
Phonetic Spelling: (ab-ad')
Short Definition: destroy
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
(Aramaic) corresponding to abad
Definition
to perish
NASB Translation
destroy (3), destroyed (3), perish (1).

Strong's Concordance 12. abdan
https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/12.htm
abdan: destruction
Original Word: אַבְדָן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: abdan
Phonetic Spelling: (ab-dawn')
Short Definition: destroying
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from abad
Definition
destruction
NASB Translation
destroying (1), destruction (1).

Strong's Concordance 13. obdan
https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/13.htm
obdan: destruction
Original Word: אָבְדַן
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: obdan
Phonetic Spelling: (ob-dawn')
Short Definition: destruction
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
the same as abdan, q.v.

Strong's Concordance  9. abedah
https://biblehub.com/str/hebrew/9.htm
abedah: a lost thing
Original Word: אֲבֵדָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: abedah
Phonetic Spelling: (ab-ay-daw')
Short Definition: lost
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from abad
Definition
a lost thing
NASB Translation
lost (1), lost thing (2), what was lost (1).

Quote from: darryl on September 28, 2018, 07:30:49 PMit's interesting that the soul n body are said to suffer destruction in Gehenna but never the 'spirit' of  a person

Mt 10:28 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
And do not have fear of
those who kill the body [pgra],
but are not able to kill the soul [npsha].
Rather, have fear more so of
him who is able to destroy [nubd] the soul [d'l'npsha]
and the body [a'l'pgra] in Gehenna.

Lk 12
4. But I say to you my friends,
do not have fear of those who kill the body [pgra]
and after that they have nothing more to do.
5. But I will show you of whom you should be afraid of:
He whom, after He has killed,
has authority to throw (you) into Gehenna.
Yes, I say to you, of Him-- this one-- have fear.

 :Chinscratch:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/12-5.htm

...the after can also be read as "with"

Of course old world translators would assume after..

But.. Even if it is "after" - Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one.”

Even though He can do it.. I don't believe He does..

In Acts 15, when Peter says, the gentiles who received the truth, received the Holy Spirit just like Hebrew believers did - verse 15:9 - "God treated them in the same way that he treated us. They put their faith in him, and he made their hearts pure."

It's my belief this same thing, which telescoped from Israel -> to the nations/gentiles, will telescope from all believers -> to those who rise (initially) not yet saved and thus "still in their sins"... No burning needed, is my belief.

Only at end of what surely? (imo) has to be a very (very) long 'day' of judgment/review of all history, etc, and only at the close of it (imo) will those (still) not believing be cast to the LOF..

...and if they still refuse to bend the knee after all that, they sorely need some time in a crucible of refinement.. But I truly believe the crucible of refinement most after death believers will experience, will be like the one experienced by all of us believers who come to believe on this side of life. I think it's hard to see or entertain though because the preconception of after life torment is so very strong within humanity's psyche..

And sometimes I think the LOF is death/final nonlife, but no humans will go there.. All having come to believe upon JD (judgment 'day') thus their names written in the book of "life"/believing. Does it say anywhere in God's Word that one cannot have their name written in the book after rising? I guess the idea may hinge on how long is Judgment Day.. All just theory of course, on the coming "ages" Jesus spoke of, and which are only briefly outlined in Revelation.

Quote from: marie glen on October 02, 2018, 07:58:16 PMEven if it is "after" - Aramaic Bible in Plain English - "But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one."
Even though He can do it.. I don't believe He does

Do you think Jesus' warnings about Gehenna were warnings about a non-possibility?

Mt 5 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
21. You have heard that it was said to those before,
you should not kill,
and all that kill are condemned to dina [judgment].
22. But I say to you that,
anyone who provokes to anger his brother without cause
is condemned to dina,
and anyone who should say to his brother, 'Raca!' [(I) spit (on you); or: (you are) spit. Aramaic to Arabic to English produced: foul one]
is condemned to the assembly,
and anyone who should say, "Lela!"[(you are) a nursemaid/ coward]
is condemned to the fire of Gehenna.
....
27. You have heard that it has been said that,
'you should not commit adultery.'
28. But I say to you that,
all who that looks at a woman as lustfully at once has committed adultery in his heart.
29. And if your right eye stumbles you,
pluck it out and cast it from you--
it is better for you that one of your members should perish
and not all of your body be thrown into Gehenna.
30. And if your right hand stumbles you,
cut it off (and) cast it from you--
it is better for you that one (of) your members should perish,
and not all of your body be thrown into Gehenna.
31. It has been said that,
he that puts away his wife shall give to her a kethaba [letter/note] of divorce.'
32. But I say to you that,
any who puts away his wife aside from a case of fornication makes her commit adultery--
and (he) who takes a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mt 10:28
And do not have fear of
those who kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul.
Rather, have fear more so of
him who is able to destroy the soul
and the body in Gehenna.

Mt 18
7. Woe to the ailma [world] because of offenses.
For it is necessary that offenses should come,
but woe to the man by whose hand the offenses come.
8. And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble,
cut it off and cast it (away) from you.
It is better for you to enter into life while lame or while you are maimed,
than while you have two hands or two feet to fall b'nura-d'l'ailm [into-the fire of-to-the world/age, i.e. into the world/age of fire].
9. And if your eye causes you to stumble,
pluck it out and cast it (away) from you.
It is better for you that with one eye you enter into life,
than while you have two eyes to fall into the fire of Gehenna.

Mt 23
15. Woe to you Sapra [Scribes] and Pharisees. Hypocrites!
For you traverse sea and land that you might make one proselyte,
and when he has become (one), you make him the son of Gehenna twice more than you are.
16. Woe to you blind guides!  ....
31. whereby you witness against yourselves
that you are sons of those who killed the nabia [prophets].
32. And you also fill up the measure of your forefathers.
33. Serpents! Offspring of vipers!
How will you flee from the dina [judgment] of Gehenna?

Mk 9
43. Now if your hand offends you, cut it off.
It is better for you to enter into life maimed,
than though you have two hands (to) go to Gehenna,
44. where 'their worm does not die and their fire does not go out.'
45. And if your foot offends you, cut it off.
It is better for you to enter into life lame,
than though you have two feet (to) fall into Gehenna,
46. where 'their worm does not die and their fire does not go out.'
47. And if your eye offends you, pluck it out.
It is better for you that with one (of) your eyes you enter into the Kingdom of Allaha,
than though you have two eyes (to) fall into the fire of Gehenna,
48. where 'their worm does not die and their fire does not go out.'

Lk 12
4. But I say to you my friends,
do not have fear of those who kill the body
and after that they have nothing more to do.
5. But I will show you of whom you should be afraid of:
He whom, after He has killed,
has authority to throw (you) into Gehenna.
Yes, I say to you, of Him-- this one-- have fear.