Tentmaker Forum

First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

Here is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter? Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven? I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

As a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

By the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

Also, who gets punished? My sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. Jesus said go and sin no more. Will I still be punished if I sin no more. Will I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

If your theology of no hell is correct than we have nothing to worry about or fear. All will be taken care of. We will ALL be reconciled to God in the end. Again, why tell people about Jesus and why they need Him if even as an Athiest, Buddhist, Scientologist, Satanist etc. we ALL get to go to heaven for eternity. Seems to me that if this is true I'll easily take a little bit of chastisement for everlasting life.

Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

This appears to me to be easy believism.

with respect,
Thanks


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www.mark64.blogspot.com (http://www.mark64.blogspot.com)

It's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.



                                    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax0EwhLltcE&feature=related

I was really hoping for a real response other than God is love. First, that is only one attribute of God. You failed to answer ANY of my questions. I really am looking for an honest real response. I hope someone on this forum could do this.

QuoteIt's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.

If I was sadistic, I could continue until whenever I felt satisfied or until you died whichever came first. Your forgiveness would have no bearing on my sadistic nature, in this case. And anyway, according to UR, in the end I would still end up in heaven!

Well now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

 :cloud9: Perhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....

I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

QuoteWell now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

I am a Christian who believes that Christ died for my sins.

QuotePerhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....

With all due respect, perhaps you could answer my questions. I have read the articles, watched the videos, been to the websites. I feel that I am pretty versed in the originations of UR and the tenants of this particular theology.

i thought I would post some questions because I actually have some real questions that I would like some honest answers to. If you can't answer my questions then maybe point me to a post that answers my specific questions. I don't need to be directed to any other posts that don't deal with the actual questions that I asked.

Respectfully,
Mark

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 02:54:11 AM
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

Hi Mark,

I will take the time to go through your post and answer you based on what I believe.   But before I do could you clarify if you are talking about Christian Universalism or Unitarian Universalism.

Thank you

Respectfully Mark,
Our Father, who art in heaven, will supply you with all the answers.
Seek first the kingdom, the rest will be added.
Don't look to men, look to Him.
Perhaps, that's why your struggling for truth.

Christian Universalism specifically. Thanks

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 02:54:11 AM
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

QuoteWell now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

I am a Christian who believes that Christ died for my sins.

QuotePerhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....

With all due respect, perhaps you could answer my questions. I have read the articles, watched the videos, been to the websites. I feel that I am pretty versed in the originations of UR and the tenants of this particular theology.

i thought I would post some questions because I actually have some real questions that I would like some honest answers to. If you can't answer my questions then maybe point me to a post that answers my specific questions. I don't need to be directed to any other posts that don't deal with the actual questions that I asked.

Respectfully,
Mark

:cloud9: Hi again Mark........I suggested that, not to be trite, but to be helpful. I am sorry but I am the least of the UR defenders on here; I only know what HE gave me about it, and it is admittedly small compared to many of the others on here. Hopefully, one of them will help you with your questions. I hope you are blessed during your sojourn here on Tent. Come with an open heart to receive from Him; leave (or hopefully stay) with an "ark" full of treasure. Blessings....

QuoteDon't look to men, look to Him.

So asking a question on a forum that deals with questions and answers is inappropriate here. Hmmmmmmmm?

I have read many of the posts here and there are thousands of questions and answers concerning UR and other topics. I'm sorry. I guess I registered to the wrong forum. I'll try somewhere else.

QuotePerhaps, that's why your struggling for truth.

No struggle here friend. However, even if there was a struggle, nothing to worry about. I'm still going to heaven no matter what! Whew!

Mark, the book is a dead letter to the carnal mind.
                                                                      But, the scriptures are not static.
                                                                                                                      They are the Living Word of God to a faithful spirit.

QuoteIt's about love.......
.....Love eternal is love reciprocal.

Only one attribute of God. I'm just curious. I searched the NKJV for the word wrath or chêmâh in Hebrew and it appears in 193 versus throughout the bible.

Judgment or shepheṭ  shâphaṭ  mishpâṭ  etc.186 times

Could someone explain this to me? Thanks

Hi Mark,
I will try to answer your questions as best as I can (from my little path over here) a little later tonight...
hang in there,
thanks,
sparrow

willieH: Hi Mark... :welcome:

Have you really STUDIED Hell?  I mean, ...REALLY studied it?  I would be happy to discuss this fallacy with you...  :laughing7:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 02:54:11 AM
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

Concerning "UR"... It remains to be seen what you "know" about UR, thank you...  :winkgrin:

Studying something does not gurantee you will see what is said... The JEWS have had the Old Testatment for many, many centuries, and the OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures are  THEY which testify of JESUS, but do they SEE Him in these Scriptures?  :dontknow:

Of course they DO NOT!  :dontknow:

QuoteMark, the book is a dead letter to the carnal mind.
                                                                       But, the scriptures are not static.
                                                                                                                       They are the Living Word of God to a faithful spirit.

What does this have to do with the specific questions I ask?

So far, nobody has answered even one question for me. I do notice however, when a fellow UR poster has a question, boy oh boy, the troops rally together and flood the chap with answers. I am patient.

QuoteI will try to answer your questions as best as I can (from my little path over here) a little later tonight...
hang in there,
thanks,
sparrow

Thanks sparrow

hi mark...have you been judged by someone,or feel you will be judged for something.To me it seems like you want to know the consequences to some actions?
Regardless,God will use them for good...blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 01:51:59 AM
First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

You "believe" in hell, but concede that it doesn't exist?  So you believe in something that doesn't "exist" for the "sake of arguement"?   No offense bro, but what kind of double talk is this?  :dontknow:

QuoteHere is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter?

The same can be asked if FEW go to heaven... why does "any of this" matter if only FEW go to heaven?  What relevance has the number?

If ALL go to Heaven, then this seems to be the accomlishment of COMPLETE and PERFECT plan, to me... If FEW go... it appears that the "plan" wasn't a very good one...

Remember, "God SO LOVED ...the WORLD... Mark...  :laughing7:

QuoteWhy believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven?

Now we get down to it brother Mark... You have established your "motive"... for you are following JESUS to "get to heaven"... 

As for me, ...I follow Him to PLEASE Him and to SERVE Him and thereby my brothers and sisters (one of which is YOU)... whatever results from that is okay with me, for ,my LOVE for Him, is why I follow Him, not to "gain" anything.

QuoteI was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

You have missed the point totally and seem to know little of what the Scriptures teach bro... as you SOW to the FLESH, of the FLESH shall you REAP... as you SOW to the SPIRIT, of the SPIRIT shall you REAP...

In other words... continuing in misbehavior only returns to you by judgment brought against the FLESH -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed (not will be)

QuoteAs a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

More unspiritual observation... wreckless and antagonistic in intent... :rolleye:

Do you think you can SIN WRECKLESSLY and that God (even though He shall save you), will not bring your behavior to LIGHT?  Your proposition is criminal...

QuoteBy the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

NONE... you will get ALL that is coming to you in the HERE and NOW (which includes the LAST DAY and RESURRECTION)... so why not get drunk tonight -- eh?  :Party:

QuoteAlso, who gets punished? My sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. Jesus said go and sin no more. Will I still be punished if I sin no more.

Whatever you have done will be dealt with bro... have ten more beers... and why not rob a bank?  Get real!

Fear of "HELL" is not what keeps you in the fold... GAIN is your motive for belief...

QuoteWill I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

You seem to be worried about punishment... If your heart was right, there would be no cause to worry -- eh?  :dontknow:

QuoteIf your theology of no hell is correct than we have nothing to worry about or fear.

Like I said in the other post, I would be happy to debate this subject with you, its one of my favorite fallacies to debunk, it is so empty of valid foundation in the WORD...  :laughing7:

How many of GOD's Apostles taught it Mark?  List me the MANY Scriptures you must have which note HELL and warning OF IT...  Also while you're at it... where is JESUS COMMAND to teach it, found? :dunno:

QuoteAll will be taken care of. We will ALL be reconciled to God in the end. Again, why tell people about Jesus and why they need Him if even as an Athiest, Buddhist, Scientologist, Satanist etc. we ALL get to go to heaven for eternity. Seems to me that if this is true I'll easily take a little bit of chastisement for everlasting life.

If you were truly called, you would not be about the NEGATIVE mindset you are in... You would be preaching the LOVE and PEACE of the GOSPEL (which IS PEACE -- Rom 10:15)... and LOVE casts OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

It remains to be seen, what you "know" about that GOSPEL...  :dontknow:

QuotePlease, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

Where is the Biblical directive for CONTEXT, Mark?  If you can show me one, than I will confine my words to CONTEXT (which can easily be done)...

THEOLOGY and THEOLOGIANS require that the WORD of GOD which is FREE, be CONFINED in their imprisonments... :rolleye:

QuoteThis appears to me to be easy believism.

with respect,
Thanks

What is wrong with EASY Mark?  The TESTIMONY of YHVH is sure making WISE, the SIMPLE -- Psalms  19:7

It is BABYLONIAN theology that clouds the TRUTH with its various UNBIBLICAL  CONFUSIONS... and COMPLICATIONS...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 02:40:49 AM
I was really hoping for a real response other than God is love. First, that is only one attribute of God. You failed to answer ANY of my questions. I really am looking for an honest real response. I hope someone on this forum could do this.

QuoteIt's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.

If I was sadistic, I could continue until whenever I felt satisfied or until you died whichever came first. Your forgiveness would have no bearing on my sadistic nature, in this case. And anyway, according to UR, in the end I would still end up in heaven!

I don't see that Love is an 'attribute' of God, I see it as God IS Love.

cp

QuoteYou "believe" in hell, but concede that it doesn't exist?  So you believe in something that doesn't "exist" for the "sake of arguement"?   No offense bro, but what kind of double talk is this? 

Another one of you guys who don't want to or with all due respect, can't answer my question.

I only conceded about hell for the sake of THIS argument so that i would hopefully get some of my questions answered.

QuoteDo you think you can SIN WRECKLESSLY and that God (even though He shall save you), will not bring your behavior to LIGHT?  Your proposition is criminal...

So what! I end up in heaven

Quote
The same can be asked if FEW go to heaven... why does "any of this" matter if only FEW go to heaven?  What relevance has the number?

If ALL go to Heaven, then this seems to be the accomlishment of COMPLETE and PERFECT plan, to me... If FEW go... it appears that the "plan" wasn't a very good one...

Remember, "God SO LOVED ...the WORLD... Mark...

So pathetically weak. This verse is what all of the UR crowd use to support their theology.

QuoteYou have missed the point totally and seem to know little of what the Scriptures teach bro... as you SOW to the FLESH, of the FLESH shall you REAP... as you SOW to the SPIRIT, of the SPIRIT shall you REAP...

In other words... continuing in misbehavior only returns to you by judgment brought against the FLESH -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed (not will be)

The WRATH of God. So funny bro. So what! I'll get some wrath then eternal life.

It has nothing to do with motives. Whether my motives be good, bad or indifferent, I still get into heaven.

Not one person who has posted has supplied one single answer to my questions. I was really hoping for some real honest SPECIFIC answers to what I posted.

I know God is love............now let's move on.

Mark,
I am encouraging you to have a living relationship with your Father, through Christ.
Spend time with Him, follow on to KNOW the Lord; Personally, not through other men.
Why ask us, when you can ask Him?
And, then, please share the gifts of His Spirit with your brethren.

Quote
I don't see that Love is an 'attribute' of God, I see it as God IS Love.

Whether you see it or don't see it does not make it so. Yeah God is Love. He is also

Angry
Wrathful
Righteous
Jealous
Holy

Still sowin' that field, are 'ya Mark?

QuoteMark,
I am encouraging you to have a living relationship with your Father, through Christ.
Spend time with Him, follow on to KNOW the Lord; Personally, not through other men.
Why ask us, when you can ask Him?
And, then, please share the gifts of His Spirit with your brethren.

I have a loving, personal relationship with Christ our Lord, my Saviour.

Still no answer to my question. Sad brother. I hope that you can come to the truth one day. Trust in Christ to open your mind and your heart to the truth. I will pray for you for discernment so that you will receive from the Holy Spirit those things that are true.

God Bless

Tell me, then, Mark:
What do you know as the truth?

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 01:51:59 AM
First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

From the standpoint of Christian Universalism  it is not about denying Hell,  it is denying that the consequenses that are a result of Gods Judgments are everlasting.

There is disagreement within that theology in the same manner that believers of eternal hell may debate over what actually happens in hell  (I.E literal torture vs a deep sorrow for instance)

So concerning Christian Universalism if there is a literal hell of punishment, it does not last forever.

Quote
Here is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter?

Lets get something clear, what you find as a dilemma is irrevalent to what truth may be found.  If it is not a dilemma to me, it is also irrevalent to whether a theological point of view is correct or incorrect.  It matters because what truth is found (whether yours or mine) God says it matters.

Quote
Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven?

Because the only way to heaven is through Christ according to scripture.

Quote
I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

Since you are not sinless, you do continue in sin and Gods grace will provide the means to correct you so that you are not sinless.   Sign me up indeed!!

Quote
As a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

Christian Universalism does not teach the avoidance of Gods judgment.

Quote
By the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

God says all will account for their lives,  the punishment will fit the crime based on Gods judgment through Love.

But the manner of punishment is irrevalent if indeed it is asserted that someone who lead a good earthly life but simply didn't accept Christ gets to burn in hell  billions upon billions upon billions upon billions,  oh, yeah, eternity,  and you agree that is fair.   

Quote
My sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus.

Are you sinless? How is it possible that you still sin, if they are washed away?

Quote
Jesus said go and sin no more.

Then why do you still sin?

Quote
Will I still be punished if I sin no more.

No.

Quote
Will I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

If you do not sin any longer, I will take the position that repentance is a concept that is similar between your beliefs and CU.  Are your past sins repented for or not?   I do not see any scriptural evidence for either doctrine that suggests being punished for a sin you have not comitted yet.

Quote
All will be taken care of.

Thats apart from theological differences, God gives many promises of his love and goodness, so yes, God is wonderful and he will take care of everything through the means of what he is,
LOVE. God has wrath through Love, he judges through love, he chastises through love, he does his deed in righteousness through love.   I'll gladly take the heat for thinking too highly of God.

Quote
We will ALL be reconciled to God in the end.

Well.....

Ac 3:21 Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of restoration of all  which God speaks through the mouth of His holy prophets who are from the eon.

Quote
Again, why tell people about Jesus and why they need Him if even as an Athiest, Buddhist, Scientologist, Satanist etc. we ALL get to go to heaven for eternity.

That's partly incorrect, see, as God draws us to repentance, there is a conversion process through Christ.  As to why tell people?   Is it enough to know that God instructs us to do so?

Mk 16:15 And He said to them,  "Go into all the world; herald the evangel to the entire creation.

This verse applies to your beliefs as well as mine, there is no intepretational issue that suggests eternal hell or  Christian Universalism, so this is an instruction.   Knowing why to "our" satisfaction is not required to obey.

Trust and Obey.   I am not staking my claim that I am any better at trusting or obeying more than anyone else, but the fact of the matter is that I do not need to know why in order to just do it.

Quote
Seems to me that if this is true I'll easily take a little bit of chastisement for everlasting life.

Well if it is all about the punishment, then a serial killer who repents on his death bed and gets off scott free for all the murders seems a bit unfair as well then.

Quote
Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

Lets get something clear,   no one is obligated to satisfy your assertions of correct context. 

Quote
This appears to me to be easy believism.

God's yoke is light.

Hi Markp64!

Let me take a stab at this. What you have asked is a very valid question(s). In fact these are the questions that were demanded of me when I first approached the Elders in my church confessing I had changed my theology to UR. I believe we cannot be armed to spread the truth unless we can answer these questions without trite answers.

A quick background from me: I have been about one year in believing in UR. I have been a Christian since '87. A series of events led me to study the facts about hell. I was astounded that what I had believed all of those years about Eternal Torment was a fraud. Since that time as I have studied with a new mindset of UR, Scripture has literally began to make more sense (Such as I Timothy 4:10 and I John 2:2). I also come from a preterist position meaning I believe the judgments in the Synoptic came to fruition in 70AD (this will be important to my points below).

So let me begin. Jesus spoke in the Synotic several times about "hell" and the "fiery pit". I'm sure if you have studied this matter you will know that the "hell" Jesus spoke with actually "Gehenna". Gehenna was a literal physical place in Jerusalem where garbage was continuously burned. Gehenna was also the place that the nameless and the criminals bodies were thrown to dispose of. It was the ultimate shame for a Jew to be cast there when they had died because they held their names and burials as most important. This is why the religious leaders so furiously hated Jesus because He said this is where they would be thrown. The Pharisees and Sadducees had no concept of the word "hell". The Jews (from my studies) had no "hell" as we know it now in our current concept.

So what happened in 70 AD? All that Jesus had warned about came to fruition in Jerusalem and many other cities in Judea. The city and the temple were burned down completely. The bodies of the religious leaders were heaped in piles with the rest of the Jewish citizens and burned ignobly. Jesus wasn't talking to them about a far off punishment, but one that they would see in their lifetime. So if you study this out to be true, then you will know that Jesus was not talking about "hell" as we know it today.

The Lake of Fire, coming from a preterist position is much the same. I am reading an astounding book by James Stuart Russell called Parousia (written around the end of the 1800s). He gives details how the book of Revelation concurs in prophecy with all that happened in 70AD. I can give you a few more details if you wish but of course with so many prophecies it is rather lengthy.

Now, more to the point, why don't we "live, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"? This is only my personal take but we are "justified by faith". No faith, no justification. No standing before the Father as being fully pardoned. However... you are reconciled to God! You are made alive to Him! But faith is important to be justified. I believe that if we die in this lifetime without having believed, we sit in "timeout" throughout the ages in Sheol waiting for the summation of the ages. The parable about the Rich man and Lazarus gives a picture of this (Luke 19:16-31).

We also know that we store up our treasures in heaven (Matthew 6:20). You can live your life as you please down here, but what treasures are you storing up in heaven? As servants (slaves) to the Lord we long to hear those words, "Well done good and faithful slave". While others might cringe at the subservient tone, we are blessed if we truly know what it means.

We are on this earth for a short time. We are judged by what we do with that time. Do not think that enduring your sins against a righteous and Holy God will be a cake-walk for those who do not repent in their lifetime. There will be much weeping and gnashing of the teeth before every tear is wiped away.

Since I have come to accept UR I have seen the worst in my fellow Christian. I used to be one of those who are longing for anyone who doesn't belong to their elite, elect club to be burned to a crisp forever and ever. It sickens me now to hear my brothers at church taunting the masses to either "repent today or face eternity in hell!" They have been trained that way even before they knew the Lord. Everyone is. Even if you don't know one thing about the Bible, you surely will know about "hell" in this world because it is in the vernacular of secular society. "Go to hell!", "Snowball's chance in hell", and on and on. We are conditioned to believe there is an eternal punishment of fire and pain.

One last thing that has really been impressed upon my heart these last few months. In Matthew 12:32 and Mark 3:29 Jesus rebukes the religious leaders about speaking against (blaspheming) the Holy Spirit. This was after the religious leaders accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan. We know that God IS the Holy Spirit. What you say about God in this age has consequences. To attribute the vile, hideous, punishment of "hell" to God is accusing God of being more vicious than any despot we know of that has ever walked earth.

OK, I said one last thing above, but this time I really, really mean it. Gehenna was a place where children were sacrificed in fire to a pagan God. The children were literally burned alive. What did God say about that? In three places in Jeremiah God says this "And they have built the high places of Toheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind." (Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5 and 32:35). If burning children never came into God's mind, why does burning His children now and forever come into His mind?

Brother I hope this has helped. Please let me know if I have missed your questions. Blessings! TS

P.S. No spell check on this work computer so forgive any typos.  :happy3:

Mark,

There are consequences for everything you do. If you go out and get drunk, you might wake up and feel really crappy, or maybe you were so drunk that you did something you regret. Having sex with multiple people can give you STDs. There is a consequences for everything, and people choose to go through that. Then what happens?

They go through "hell."

You tell me the single mom, who had sex before she was married, got pregnant, decided to keep the baby, got rejected by many people, having to live paycheck to paycheck, is not in "hell"? People sin, and we go through "hell" to pay for the consequences. People who do that type of "sinning" are missing something from their life. So they look for something to cover up that missing part. I feel sorry for them, even though they might be having fun. I hear it all the time: "I wish I waited to have sex." "I wish I didn't drink so much." 

Now I'm not condoning drinking, sex, whatever. Having a drink is fine. Going overboard, no. Having sex, yes. Before your married, no.

One last thing I want to hit on,

Your reward in heaven will reflect your life on earth.

I'm pretty sure God has something more fulfilling than getting drunk  :winkgrin:.

willieH:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 01:51:59 AM
Here is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter? Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven?

What difference does the number of the SAVED make, Mark?  If JESUS commanded us to preach the GOSPEL... then it is our duty to do so... and leave the RESULTS to Him...  :dontknow:

If JESUS was SENT to SAVE the WORLD (which He WAS -- Luke 19:10 -- John 1:29 -- 1 John 4:14)....

And as YOU see it (as a believer in "hell") He only ends up saving a paltry FEW... YOU name this result as a "success"?  You observe this as a COMPLETE and PERFECT result? Please!  :laughing7:

If you do not believe in JESUS it is because you have not been DRAWN to Him, for NO MAN ...CAN... come to Him, except the Father DRAW him -- John 6:44

QuoteAlso, who gets punished?

The WRATH of God comes against UNGODLINESS... and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS... no punishment after TIME expires... only within it...  And ALL are chastised by that wrath... while amidst their disobedience...

QuoteWill I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

How can you be punished" for sins which you "assume" will not take place?  If you "assume that you don't sin any longer" -- where are there any "future sins" to be punished for Mark? :dunno:  This is weird thinking...

Do you not see the ridiculous path your words walk?

YOU certainly think you will or at least some will be "punished", as a "believer in HELL"...  You as a man, cannot PAY for your SIN... but you CAN recieve CHASTISEMENT for it...

This brings to an END, your "questions"... the rest of your post was blabber...

willieH: Hey Beloved... como esta?  :laughing7:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 09, 2009, 04:20:43 AM
Tell me, then, Mark:
What do you know as the truth?

Good question Beloved... I will curious at his answer, and even surprised it he DOES answer this SIMPLE question...  :laughing7:

willieH: Hi Mark... :hithere:

Quote from: willieHYou "believe" in hell, but concede that it doesn't exist?  So you believe in something that doesn't "exist" for the "sake of arguement"?   No offense bro, but what kind of double talk is this? 

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMAnother one of you guys who don't want to or with all due respect, can't answer my question.

Your question was answered, you just avoid acknowledging the answer...  :laughing7:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMI only conceded about hell for the sake of THIS argument so that i would hopefully get some of my questions answered.

What a crock!  You cannot "prove" Hell exists, so you play games...

If you "believe" in it, why CONCEDE that it is "non-existent" Mark?  Why not "prove" it exists?  More of your double talk --->  (1) :blahgreen: (2) :blah:

Quote from: willieHDo you think you can SIN WRECKLESSLY and that God (even though He shall save you), will not bring your behavior to LIGHT?  Your proposition is criminal...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMSo what! I end up in heaven

Yes you shall end up SAVED, Mark...

But after dearly paying a price that is unnecessary to pay... Maybe it will strike you in business, or health, maybe in the gifts given you... such as sight, walking, breathing, etc... maybe your facetious attitude will wear a crown of thorns which shows you rejected, where your heart seeks acceptance... there are a LOT of ways that the Wrath of GOD may appear in your lifetime bro...

Maybe you will get the opportunity to enjoy the battle I am presently amidst with cancer... it "ain't fun", but as you continue to travel accordingly, you shall discover such things to your dismay, which shall manifest in your life...  :sigh:

I can tell you this -- as you are sarcastic and enjoying "doing the crime" your "smiles" will cease, ...and you WILL NOT enjoy "doing the time"...

Following the pathway of a mind which is entertaining self-destruction... you will discover there are some bitter (yet undiscovered) rocks that lay ahead in your roadway, before that journey ends...

Quote from: willieHThe same can be asked if FEW go to heaven... why does "any of this" matter if only FEW go to heaven?  What relevance has the number?

If ALL go to Heaven, then this seems to be the accomlishment of COMPLETE and PERFECT plan, to me... If FEW go... it appears that the "plan" wasn't a very good one...

Remember, "God SO LOVED ...the WORLD... Mark...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMSo pathetically weak. This verse is what all of the UR crowd use to support their theology.

No Mark, it is your words which are pathetically weak... I didn't even propose Scripture, just noted that GOD so LOVED the WORLD... Being that He is already PERFECT in that LOVE, and NEVER CHANGES -- then His plan is aimed higher than your limited vision can see...

Quote from: willieHYou have missed the point totally and seem to know little of what the Scriptures teach bro... as you SOW to the FLESH, of the FLESH shall you REAP... as you SOW to the SPIRIT, of the SPIRIT shall you REAP...

In other words... continuing in misbehavior only returns to you by judgment brought against the FLESH -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed (not will be)

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMThe WRATH of God. So funny bro. So what! I'll get some wrath then eternal life

Well that you will dear brother, make no mistake!  ...and believe me, you shall NOT enjoy your visit with the wrath...

As I said above, ...I am presently fighting cancer... and can tell you that I am sure it is due to what I have reaped in the past to the flesh... (I was a non-Christian for 31 years -- presently 64) ...but I have the LOVE and TRUST in God to see me through this wilderness, knowing He shall reveal a greater thing in life for me...

Being foolish with an opportunity, is just that... foolish... I would pray your thinking to sober up a taste... You sound as if you are yet "athiest", in your proposals...  and it remains to be seen if you have any BIBLICAL knowledge...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMIt has nothing to do with motives. Whether my motives be good, bad or indifferent, I still get into heaven.

Of course it does... you again just fail to acknowledge what is presented to you... Your motive is to GAIN... which is something which falls short, for it is rooted in your selfishness... not in LOVE for the Heart and WILL of YHVH...  :sigh:

Again... you tempt GOD, and it is YOU which shall find yourself one day, on the short end of the stick... Time is relative... 10 seconds in a 200 meter race is very little time... but accidently putting your hand on a stove burner turned up to high, shall FOREVER give you quite another perspective of that "10 second" period... which we, in most scenarios consider to be an insignificant and SHORT amount of time...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMNot one person who has posted has supplied one single answer to my questions. I was really hoping for some real honest SPECIFIC answers to what I posted.

Oh wahh...  :btantrum: ...want a little CHEESE with that WHINE?  :laughing7:

Your questions have been addressed, but not to your liking... therefore you are as are many EGYPTIANS  :egyptdance: ...in DE-NILE...  :laughing7:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AMI know God is love............now let's move on.

What other subjects do you wish to sidestep and NOT discuss Mark?  :pointlaugh:

You come in here lambasting "UR" and saying your are "believer in HELL"... well s___ or get off the pot dude!

Why not get right down to it Mark... and (try to) present your belief in HELL, ...and (try to) REFUTE "UR", that is if you are able to do either -- which I'm betting you "are not!"  :laugh:

hey there mark..

I told you I'd come back tonight and try to answer your questions.
but... if you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a question.

What do you think is the purpose of this life?
Why are we here?

My answers to your originial questions have a lot to do with what I see the purpose of this life being.... Why we are here, and what God has planned. So I'd be interested to see where your mind/heart is in relation to "why are we here??"


thanks,
sparrow

QuoteWhat do you think is the purpose of this life?
Why are we here?

My answers to your originial questions have a lot to do with what I see the purpose of this life being.... Why we are here, and what God has planned. So I'd be interested to see where your mind/heart is in relation to "why are we here??"

Thanks for responding sparrow. There are not many in this forum willing to answer my questions directly.

I first have to say that I am a Christian. Some of the questions I posed were to provoke some discussion about UR theology so that I could further understand it. It appears that some of the posters on the forum thought I might be an Atheist.

Quote
What do you think is the purpose of this life?

I think the purpose of this life is to honor and worship God as Savior. Give thanks in all that we do, to Him. Go out and spread the good news. Preach the gospel to whomever will hear it. Love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Those are the commandments that he proclaimed to those of us who believe.

I would like to add a couple of questions for you that came up after my first post. I truly want to understand this belief system and it seems one of the ways to do that would be to inquire of the persons who believe it. I came to Christ in just the same way.

Most of the comments, from UR's concerning eternal punishment are always something like:

Do you think it's fair to send people to a fiery hell forever.

The punishment does not fit the crime

Doesn't sound fair to me

Why would God do such a terrible thing if He is love

IMO I think that if you read ALL of Romans Chapter 9 and Ezekial Chapter 18 you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair

Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

It seems so important that it is said twice. Remember, it is important to read both chapters in their entirety.

Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

And He does with regard to Pharaoh. It does not seem fair to us with our little feeble minds.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

But somehow God does to His creation what WE think is NOT fair. There is know way that we could ever truly comprehend His pure Holiness, His pure Justification or His pure Righteousness.

Second:

I really feel that the five versus below completely and unequivocally, put to rest any hope for UR. As we know, this was Jesus speaking and He was speaking about the judgment to come AFTER our physical death. He also says that there are "few who find it" referring to life and "many who will find destruction through the broad gate". I am not sure how much clearer it gets than straight from Jesus' mouth.

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because [32] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I am not sure how UR can get around this other than saying to me that when Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you, this really means depart from me only for a while.

I am sure you will disagree however, I eagerly await your response.


Thanks and God Bless

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair

Very true. Nothing we can do to stop Him.
But He made certain promisses. There are different views on what those promisses are but all Christians seem to agree He will not break the promisses He made/vowed.
So I think the discussion shouldn't be/isn't about that.
If He still breaks his vows.... well what can we do?
The only thing we can do is discuss what are the promisses He made?

Small personal note about: Unfair.
Many/most people find certain things unfair. Is it by accident that they quite often seem quite similar to God's rules?
Shoot me if you like; but I think the Bible shows (part) of Gods character written down in words/rules.
And part of it shows 'that is fair'
So if He says, there the word comes again :laughing7:, love this, love that, then I think He also applies that to Himself.
Even if there is noone that can stop Him if He doesn't.

 

Quoteauthor=markp64 link=topic=6387.msg67763#msg67763 date=1247093519]
First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

no one here denies the Lake of fire, and the word hell is translated from sheol, hades, gehenna.

sheol is hebrew and the greek is hades, same thing, we see hades emptied and tossed into the lake of fire, so we see hell cant be tossed into itself.

QuoteHere is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter? Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven? I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

It matters because its Gods plan and he has an election to enjoy a certian allotment. who would not want to enjoy the allotment of the ages/eons? and be witness too them?

God bless
chuckt


PS, ray smith writes:

Quote"Eonian life" is life for the eons or life for the ages. However long the eons or ages are, that how long eonian or age-abiding life is. Then what?

Here's why unlearned theologians say this is not possible, because after the ages or eons, we would all die. NOT TRUE!

Let me illustrate. Suppose your company is going to buy you and everyone in your company an all-expense paid trip to Europe for one month.  EVERYBODY gets that trip. However, because you are such a fabulous worker and such a asset to the company, your boss is going to send you on a trip to Europe for three whole weeks BEFORE everyone else goes on their trip. This is a SPECIAL, BONUS trip. Not many get to go on THIS particular bonus trip, only a few.

Now then, you get to go THREE WEEKS earlier than the rest. When they arrive, you have already been their enjoying yourself for THREE WEEKS. So when the others arrive to begin their vacation, does your vacation END? No. Only your "three week" vacation ends. But you CONTINUE to vacation in Europe just as long as the rest.Your hotel reservation is not cancelled after three weeks.

That is not a perfect illustration, but maybe you get the point. "Aionion" or "Age-lasting life" is a SPECIAL gift from God that only a relatively FEW ever receive. It is LIFE in God's Kingdom BEFORE the masses are brought into God's Kingdom. What allows those who are given "eonian life" to continue living even AFTER the eons are past, is not the promise from God of "eternal life" but rather "IMMORTALITY."

All of God's children will be given IMMORTALITY and INCORRUPTION, so that they will NEVER DIE. However, those who are given immortality before the rest, receive it ages or eons IN ADVANCE of the rest.

Can you now understand it? If not, let me know and I'll try and explain it a different way.

Sincerely,

Ray

QuoteHere is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter? Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven? I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

Here is my dilemma, God is all powerful and all knowing, so if only few end up in heaven and the rest go to hell, then that can only mean that He willingly created the majority of mankind with the full foreknowledge that most of them would end up in hell, if taken to it's logical conclusion, then each new birth should bring forth unceaseless mourning and sorrow, instead of it being a cause for celebration

We did not choose to be born
We did not choose to be born as sinners

QuoteFor the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Romans 8 v20-21

http://www.godsplanforall.com/site/1351515/page/686544 (read what is said about calvinism and arminianism)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I personally think the western world is too lenient with criminals, I also support the death penalty, however I will NEVER ever again be able to justify the doctrine of eternal torment, let me ask you a question, could you be so cold that you could watch someone being tortured forever and be able to look on without feeling any compassion whatsoever, or could you somehow just forget your loved ones

Here's another dilemma I'm facing, the thought that anyone ending up in eternal torment is an unspeakable nightmare to me, the eternal destiny of those moslems/atheists etc and all those that you so casually dismiss as worthless is far more important to me, than anything the world has to offer me, I'd rather cease to exist myself to save anyone from ET, than enjoy heaven at the expense of anyone being tortured forever

I think this answers it pretty good, I don't know the author but WhiteWings shared it with me:


WHY TEACH SALVATION FOR ALL?

There are always those people who object to this truth on the grounds that the preaching of universal salvation will make Christians and unsaved careless. I can hear the unbelieving say, "If I believed that all men were to be saved eventually, I would just go out in the world and enjoy myself. What is the use of going through all these things we have to endure, if we're going to be saved in the end anyway?" Such ridiculous talk only reveals the true inner condition of the one who makes such as assertion. it shows that he has no true love for God, but is serving Him only out of fear of going to hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant. If such a person had the fear of hell removed from him it is obvious that he would promptly tell God to go to hell and then proceed to drown himself in devilish pleasures and fleshly pursuits. I have no hesitation in saying that any man who says that if all are going to be saved in the end we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, is a devil at heart, and convicts himself by his own words. If the wages of sin were removed, he would immediately go out and begin to live it up in the world, serving both the flesh and the devil. He has no love for God at all, and is the most contemptible of hypocrites.

If your heart is that much inclined to the world and your love for God is no greater, then you better go back into the world. People who want to live careless will always find an excuse to be careless and they will have to suffer the result of their carelessness both now and in the day of judgment. The knowledge of God's gracious purpose does not make true men of God careless. It makes them long to become a part of His will and an instrument in His plan of the ages. We can embrace every travail in understanding, grace, and love, when we clearly see it is working for eternal good according to His purpose which He purposed in Christ before the ages began.

Some press the issue further and raise the question, "If sinners hear that all will be saved eventually, won't that cause them to relax and live more carelessly?" To which I reply, Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding? Has it turned the world to God? Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night? Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins? Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy? It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him. Everything He did for us was because He loved us, and He will accept nothing less from us. "The love of Christ constrains us" (11 Cor. 5:14). He does not want what we have; He wants us; our heart and affection. And sinners need to discover the love of God in Christ, and be brought to truly love Him. Let us consider these things, and cry mightily unto God to deliver our minds from all prejudice and preconceived ideas and distorted notions, for it is possible He still has truth He has not revealed to us!

Some time ago the following questions were presented to me. "Why preach and teach the Gospel if all are to be saved ultimately? There is no need to witness for they will be saved someday, someway, somewhere - right?" W-R-O-N-G! First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years. Was it not Dr. A. J. Gordon who met an old crippled man on the street, and asked him why, with all his handicap, his face was nevertheless so bright and shining? And the old man answered, "The devil has no happy old men!"

Furthermore, God will never save your loved ones, your neighbors, or any other person who has ever lived or who ever shall live apart from a MEANS, an INSTRUMENT THROUGH WHICH TO REACH THEM. And WE are that instrument! God declares to His elect in Isa. 49:6, "I will also GIVE YOU for a light to the nations, that YOU may BE MY SALVATION unto the end of the earth." The method by which God causes men to believe is revealed in Rom. 10:14-15. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER? and how shall they PREACH except they be SENT?" Does the salvation of all men negate this procedure? NO WAY! It only intensifies it! The simple truth is that God purposes to save all men. The means by which He shall accomplish this is A PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, the SONS OF GOD, who are made ONE with the PRIESTLY MINISTRY OF JESUS the great HIGH PRIEST, to intercede, witness, speak, exhort, warn, entreat, preach, and proclaim the redemptive power of the Christ until this ministry conquers all men for God.

Ah - does the fact that God will have all men to be saved mean that it is meaningless to WITNESS, to PREACH? A thousand times no! "It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21). So we cannot preach less, we must not witness less, armed now with the hope that the preaching will ultimately BEAR FRUIT we shall preach MORE THAN EVER BEFORE, for this is one of God's MEANS of salvation! Those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that only a small fraction of them will ever be saved? Why bother? To what end all the labor? The devil gets most of them in the end anyhow!

We who know that God will have all men to be saved are really the only people on earth who have REAL PURPOSE in ministering to the lost. Praise God! He has committed unto us the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION. Now comes the word: "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given UNTO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling T-H-E W-O-R-L-D unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has COMMITTED UNTO US THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: WE PRAY YOU IN CHRIST'S STEAD, BE   RECONCILED UNTO GOD" (11 Cor. 5:18-20). The apostle shows how it is that God was in Christ reconciling NOT THE CHURCH, NOT THE SAINTS, NOT JUST BELIEVERS, but T-H-E W-O-R-L-D unto Himself, and now has given the MINISTRY BY WHICH THIS RECONCILIATION IS TO BE EFFECTED ... unto us! "We pray you in Christ's stead." Not witness to our loved ones because they will be saved anyway? Not preach to the unconverted because they will be saved in the end? The very idea is absurd, a complete contradiction of terms! Because God has made blessed provision for their salvation IS W-H-Y WE WITNESS! On the contrary, to witness and witness and witness to vast numbers of people who will NEVER BE SAVED would be an effort in futility. If I believed that nonsense, then I really might STOP PREACHING!

Will believing that God is the Saviour of all men do away with evangelistic fervor and zeal? Only in men who hold a carnal knowledge of the doctrine in their intellect, but have no deep revelation of the truth of it in their hearts. It did not affect the apostle Paul in this manner. On the contrary it increased his fervor and zeal. Paul states it clearly and emphatically, "For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Tim. 4:10). After many years of ministry, being, by the grace of God, an instrument of God to help a great many people in the deep spiritual, psychical, and physical needs of their lives, I testify that I know of no greater joy on earth than the joy of seeing people receive Christ as their own Saviour and Lord. Just ask anyone who has led some person to the Lord, what is the greatest joy he knows. He will not be slow in telling you. Or try it yourself!

The fact that we see and appreciate God's great and wonderful plan for all men leaves no room in us for a dilatory, DON'T CARE spirit. The elect of God are always conscious of their unique calling. We are given the high honor of being "laborers together with God." Some day when the last devil has been subjected, and the last sinner broken in humility and contrition at the lovely feet of Jesus, we shall realize, as we may not now, just how great that honor really is, and how much we have missed if we fail to share in this task to which the Almighty has set His hand.

I must confess that I am deeply grieved in my spirit when I meet these would-be Sons of God who look with contempt upon those who still have a passion for souls and desire to see men delivered from the power of the devil. I am aware of the fact that the hour has not yet arrived when God shall deal with all nations, and multitudes of past generations, to bring forth His salvation in them, but it is my deepest conviction that one of the sure marks of sonship is THE SPIRIT OF RECONCILIATION. Why speak of our great hope of what God shall do in the ages to come if THE SPIRIT OF THAT HOPE is not now alive in our hearts? It is not the doctrine of reconciliation that shall change the world, but the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION. The ministry of reconciliation springs from the spirit of reconciliation.

If you would not walk across the street to see some poor soul delivered and converted by the redeeming power of Christ, don't waste your time relating to me how you are chosen of God to help in the delivering of the whole creation from the bondage of sin and death. The Spirit of Reconciliation must reign within our hearts. The Ministry of Reconciliation must issue forth from our lives. Rivers of Living Water must, even now, pour forth out of our innermost being, bringing hope and victory and life to all who will come and drink! Amen!

Quote from: sven on July 09, 2009, 03:37:40 PM
I think this answers it pretty good, I don't know the author but WhiteWings shared it with me:

Preston Eby: http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/why_preach_eby.html

Mark just in case you don't know you can find great articles
Here: http://www.tentmaker.org/
And especially here: http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


I could give many more interesting links but let's stick to Jesus teachings on hell:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

Yes, Sven, that is good.
And WW, I would have guessed that was Preston's writing.
I have read practically everything on his Web site.

p.s.
He just added part 91 to his Revelation series.

if you guys didnt like my post just say so!

(http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif)

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

 Chuck.
I too am anxiously waiting.

I did not say so chuckt
Guess what that means
(http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif)

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
Most of the comments, from UR's concerning eternal punishment are always something like:

Do you think it's fair to send people to a fiery hell forever.

The punishment does not fit the crime

Doesn't sound fair to me

Why would God do such a terrible thing if He is love

IMO I think that if you read ALL of Romans Chapter 9 and Ezekial Chapter 18 you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair

Yes, what we think is fair or unfair is largely irrevalent, so I will recap your original post a bit.

Quote
Mark wrote :

As a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

If you could just do that if God allowed, fair or unfair?

Quote
Mark wrote:

I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

If you could do that if God allowed, fair or unfair?

Quote
Mark wrote:

By the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

Will any answer matter if it is not about the fairness of the punushment, or lack therof?

Those comments of yours are great ones, but they also cast the same perspective of fair or unfairness and that can influence the type of response you may get.


So lets cut through the chatter and provocation and talk scripture.

1Ti 2:4 Who |wills that all =mankind be saved and |come into a realization of the truth.

God is going to do that,  thats how it is.   What is your objection that can actually matter?

willieH: Hi Mark...  :icon_king:

Below you say you EAGERLY await response to this post... I have gone in great detail to answer it... hope you meant what you said at the end, as I begin...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
I first have to say that I am a Christian. Some of the questions I posed were to provoke some discussion about UR theology so that I could further understand it. It appears that some of the posters on the forum thought I might be an Atheist.

Glad to know you are a "Christian"... I am not... I am a follower of JESUS CHRIST... and do not associate myself with the title "Christian" for most "Christians", in general preach falsehoods...  :sigh:

What do you wish to KNOW about UR, Mark?  It is a LARGE subject, with MANY details... :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMI think the purpose of this life is to honor and worship God as Savior. Give thanks in all that we do, to Him. Go out and spread the good news.

That is a good statement, but let me ask you, being a confessed "believer in hell ...what "GOOD NEWS" is found in the teaching of "hell"?  Where are the Biblical examples of its teaching in the NT by the Apostles?  Where is the COMMAND to teach it from CHRIST?   :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMPreach the gospel to whomever will hear it. Love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Those are the commandments that he proclaimed to those of us who believe.

More good stuff... however... NO MAN CAN come to CHRIST unless the FATHER draws that one to CHRIST -- John 6:44 & 65

The ONLY way that ANYONE can "come" to SAVING FAITH is if CHRIST Himself, AUTHORS that FAITH -- Heb 12:2

Since it is Biblically established that NO MAN CAN COME to the WORD unless YHVH draws [drags] that one... (not that we should abandon preaching the GOSPEL), It is necessary to KNOW that no amount of our preaching or diligence can avail even ONE convert... Only at the DRAWING of GOD... shall ANYONE come... and if anyone HEARS, it is because CHRIST is AUTHORING FAITH in that one... and they have been DRAWN by YHVH to the WORD.

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMI would like to add a couple of questions for you that came up after my first post. I truly want to understand this belief system and it seems one of the ways to do that would be to inquire of the persons who believe it. I came to Christ in just the same way.

Most of the comments, from UR's concerning eternal punishment are always something like:

Do you think it's fair to send people to a fiery hell forever.

I believe in the Salvation of ALL men, I do not LABEL what I believe... but to address your question...

(1) -- We do not have a "say-so" in the process of GOD -- Rom 9:20 -- Jer 18:4  :winkgrin:

(2) -- a "fiery hell" is the creation of MEN and is NOT a Biblical topic, so the question is irrelevant...  IOW -- we cannot observe something that does NOT exist, and determine whether it is "FAIR" or "UNFAIR"...  :dontknow:

(3) -- (on the assumption that "hell" actually existed) It must be determined what "forever" means in order to observe it... and thereby determine the duration of this "place" which we are unable to do as FINITE beings, HOWEVER:

(4) -- According to the observations noted in conjunction with GOD concerning THE ETERNAL... something ETERNAL, always ...IS... if HELL were "eternal", then those who would be its residents have ALWAYS BEEN, ARE, and ALWAYS WILL BE "in it"... :rolleye:

(5) -- the terms SHEOL (Hebrew), TARTARUS (once used), HADES, and GEHENNA... are for NO REASON, grouped together by "Christian Theologians"... within their CONSTRUCT of "HELL"...  A detailed study of SHEOL which is the equivalent of HADES, shall note it to be GRAVE... TARTARUS is just a variation of HADES, and finally GEHENNA was a real place which represented SHAME... NONE of these have "ETERNAL" connotations within their repective word definitions...

The HYPOCRISY of Christianity's teachings concerning GEHENNA is easily seen -- if GEHENNA were truly the LITERAL "hell" taught by Christianity, they have FAILED to follow their belief:

Mark 9:42-49 --- If one is taking GEHENNA LITERALLY, in the Scriptures... this set of verses notes that "offending" HANDS, FEET should be CUT OFF, "offending" EYES should be PLUCKED OUT -- also, it states that EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE... so the FIRE is LITERAL for ALL...  :dontknow:

According to CHRIST's usage of it as is taught by Orthodoxy... then there should've been MANY (as to be INNUMERABLE) maimed "Christians" all along its historical pathway, yet NONE are noted... why?  Because, they wish to note these verses as LITERAL concerning HELL (Gehenna), but do not take the instruction LITERALLY... which tells them to cut off this or that! :rolleye:

For CHRIST is here instructing (speaking to the JEWS), to CUT OFF the hands, feet or PLUCK out the EYE that offended... yet NO "Christian" to date has done this, and certainly MYRIADS have committed these "offenses"...  Yet ZERO "Christians"... have ever done this... (that might be excepting a few radicals which actually might have foolishly MAIMED the TEMPLE of the living God -- 1 Cor 3:16-17 -- 2 Cor 6:16

I can tell you Mark, that being a father of 3 and grandfather of 10, that if ANY of my loved ones were walking down such a pathway to such a destination, ...it would be a TOPIC that I would OFTEN bring up and discuss... Well the facts show that CHRIST did not speak of it...

The JEWS held a HIGH esteem concerning HONORABLE burial (still do) ...and the truth is that He was mentioning to the JEWS that SHAME would be their destiny which is what GEHENNA (a garbage dump outside Jerusalem) represented... He wasn't warning them of any "ETERNAL" (hellfire) destination at all...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMThe punishment does not fit the crime

It amazes me the focus of NEGATIVITY that is held by those who propose they are bringing the "GOOD NEWS" (GOSPEL)... Yet the threat of "punishment" is at the top of their "gospel"... and the (misplaced) WORRY of those who walk in darkness...

Witnessing with a forked tongue that which JAMES openly condemned -- James 3:9... "hey GOD LOVES you with a LOVE that is so deep we cannot even understand it"... then later on, telling them, ..."but if you fall into sin, or you do not maintain you belief, you will BURN FOREVER in HELL"   :mshock:  What a lot of CRAP!

Either GOD loves us with an ETERNAL LOVE (which He does), or He doesn't LOVE us at all... if He is willing to let us, stupid sheep, trip our way into an ETERNAL FIRE, without lifting even His little PINKY to SAVE us... then He hardly "LOVES" us with an ETERNAL LOVE...  :sigh:

Like I said... James condemned this "gospel" -- James 3:6-11

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMDoesn't sound fair to me

I can't speak for others here... but HELL is irrelevant and mythical, so fair or unfair are irrelevant as well...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMWhy would God do such a terrible thing if He is love

Again, irrelevant... God absolutely shall not "DO" such a terrible thing!  He SO LOVED the WORLD, bro!  That LOVE shall never change.

QuoteIMO I think that if you read ALL of Romans Chapter 9 and Ezekial Chapter 18 you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair

I agree... who can speak against the creator?  But GOD is REASONABLE, for He invites us to REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- If He is REASONABLE, then LOGIC must be applied to that which we find in HIS WORD...

What LOGIC is found in the concept of ETERNAL TORMENT?  Where is LOVE found in this concept?  Where is MERCY found in this concept?

Where SIN abounded, ...GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND! -- Rom 5:21 -- the promotion of "HELL" is found establishing SIN, to MUCH MORE ABOUND, is it not?  ...  :sigh:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMEze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?

Actually the word translated "fair" in this verse means EQUAL... It is not inferring that GOD in any way is "unfair"... He is JUST... which means that according to HIM is JUSTICE decided...  GRACE is His JUSTICE, Mark...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMEze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

Again, Mark... regardless of our position, GOD is JUST... and REASONABLE, and is led in that REASON by LOVE...  We face MANY terrible things, such as natural disasters, untimely deaths, disease, military wars, terrorism, etc... this is the UNFOLDING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... and WITH YHVH, are WE, ...His SONS... becoming ONE with Him in that KNOWLEDGE...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMIt seems so important that it is said twice. Remember, it is important to read both chapters in their entirety.

GOD says TEN TIMES that He is NOT RESPECTER of PERSONS (perfectly IMPARTIAL), Mark... And if that is SO... and HE is Savior... how can HE do for ONE (save), that He shall not DO for ALL others?

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMRom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

And He does with regard to Pharaoh. It does not seem fair to us with our little feeble minds.

It is all in how you are observing His WORD, Mark... Notice that in -- Rom 9:17 -- He states that HE rose Pharaoh to DECLARE His name throughout the earth!  It was through the INDECENCY and HARDNESS of Pharaoh that the DELIVERANCE was DECLARED!

We are ALL participants in the REVELATION of CHRIST, amidst this LIFE of EVIL and SIN...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMRom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

He is WORKING ALL THINGS together by HIS WILL, Mark -- Eph 1:11 -- Part of HIS WILL is that NONE PERISH bro -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- Part of HIS WILL is that CHRIST NOT CONDEMN -- John 3:17

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMBut somehow God does to His creation what WE think is NOT fair. There is know way that we could ever truly comprehend His pure Holiness, His pure Justification or His pure Righteousness.

I disagree... You set Him somewhere beyond the UNIVERSE, when the Scriptures which the Apostles noted... said He is RIGHT HERE -- Acts 17:27 -- and we cannot REASON with Him, if He is so removed as you propose...

He is IN the heart brother Mark... and the REVELATION of Him is taking place in each heart... His HOLINESS is beyond us to know amongst this sin-ridden world, but moment by moment, our diligent pursuit of Him, reveals Him at HIS PROMISE -- Jer 29:13 -- don't drown in the sea of negativity bro... the GOOD NEWS is that HE is HERE and He shall NEVER FORSAKE US...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
Second:

I really feel that the five versus below completely and unequivocally, put to rest any hope for UR. As we know, this was Jesus speaking and He was speaking about the judgment to come AFTER our physical death. He also says that there are "few who find it" referring to life and "many who will find destruction through the broad gate". I am not sure how much clearer it gets than straight from Jesus' mouth.

Let's see... These are some of my MOST QUOTED and FAVORITE verses concerning UR... I will break them down ONE by ONE... and display your conclusion as short of truth...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMMat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

:omg: "Unequivocally"?  The FINALITY of your message is so sorrowful...  :sigh: ...and so IMPERFECT... as well as a determination that CHRIST was LARGELY unsuccessful in "retrieving" the WORLD that GOD so LOVED... leaving GOD, ETERNALLY unfulfilled, and His LOVE, forever SORROWED...  You call this "GOOD NEWS", Mark?  :dunno:

FIRST -- it says that the BROAD GATE is also an ENTRY by which MANY ...GO IN... doesn't it... GO IN where?  Obviously the same place the NARROW GATE allows ENTRY for NO difference ("heaven or hell") is noted for either...

SECOND -- CHRIST was SENT NOT to CONDEMN bro, which means it is the WILL of the SENDER (YHVH) as well, that He NOT CONDEMN... and both He and YHVH are UNCHANGING entities...  Why would CHRIST CONDEMN when He was SENT NOT to do so?  Sorry, but your "unequivocal understanding" is lacking... 

Let me note in this verse that the word in this verse translated DESTRUCTION, is APOLEIA, a (presumed by translators) DERIVITIVE of APOLLUMI... which is also translated DESTRUCTION, however... the Parables of the LOST (apollumi) Son, LOST (apollumi) Sheep, and LOST (apollumi) Coin, are noted with the word APOLLUMI (and translated LOST), yet ALL were recovered...  :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMMat 7:14 Because [32] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

MANY are called, FEW are chosen bro... but NO MAN can come to the SAVING CHRIST unless GOD does the drawing [dragging]  :dontknow:  John 6:44 -- so NO Man shall enter the "narrow gate" unless he/she is called to enter...  This is GOD's program Mark! 

Btw... FEW are the number of those who believe "UR"!

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMMat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Ahh... love this verse... If these have called Him "LORD", then they have been EMPOWERED by the HOLY SPIRIT, which brings "JESUS as LORD" to their LIPS -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- Also, ...they which CALL upon the name of the Lord ...SHALL BE SAVED -- Rom 10:13 -- they are instructed to depart, but it is only temporary... they WILL be SAVED.

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMMat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

The pivotal word here is "WE"... which is the way most "Christians" think... thinking they "lead" another to CHRIST, or "lead" them in a "sinners prayer"... and that THEY cast out devils... and THEY do many WONDERS in the Name of the LORD... instead of CREDITING HIM, ...THEY credit THEMSELVES... which is WHY the following is stated:

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMMat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'  

They are guilty of taking the work of GOD and His CHRIST, and patting themselves on the back with it...

NO MAN has EVER "led" anyone to CHRIST... Billy Graham has done a faithful work, but has led NO ONE to CHRIST, in all his years of service...

GOD brings His children to Salvation, issues the FAITH, and empowers the TONGUE to CONFESS CHRIST... No MAN, has ever done ANY of this... But, plenty of MEN, often take the credit...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 11:20:34 AMI am not sure how UR can get around this other than saying to me that when Jesus says depart from me, I never knew you, this really means depart from me only for a while.

Did CHRIST say:  "DEPART FOREVER"?  Those words are NOT in the text, and it is an ASSUMPTION that He was sending them away FOREVER...

Also... It says "I never KNEW -- YOU"... only in TRUTH do the SHEEP which hear HIS VOICE of TRUTH, and are KNOWN by HIM -- John 10:27 --- MANY shall travel the road of DESTRUCTION (not few)

In the above verses Matt 7:13 and Matt 7:22 ...MANY are noted as having a "gate problem", bro.

:Peace:

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

Great article Sven! I've read it before at tentmaker, but it is an encouraging refresher!  :bgdance:

Blessings!
TS

Nice post, Willieh!

Peace  :thumbsup:  :bigGrin:

Thank you for responding. I truly appreciate it.

I have studied UR (although many on this forum are NOT willing to give me the benefit of the doubt). I admit that I am not a "schooled theologian" regarding UR, however, I feel that I know well the basic tenets of your faith. Here is the problem (if it's even that). I did get your analogy and certainly made sense.

QuoteIt matters because its Gods plan and he has an election to enjoy a certain allotment. who would not want to enjoy the allotment of the ages/eons? and be witness too them?

Just for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven. Which brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. SO WHAT! In the end I/everyone will be in heaven. Some with lots of treasure and allotment and others with less but IN HEAVEN REGARDLESS. The way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age. regardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

One other observation, most if not all UR's so far throw at me; they will quote one verse here or there and 99% of the time it appears to me anyway, completely out of context to what the verse actually meant and what the author was trying to convey.

Again, thank you for your response and kindness. God Bless

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AM
It matters because its Gods plan and he has an election to enjoy a certain allotment. who would not want to enjoy the allotment of the ages/eons? and be witness too them?

Just for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven.[/quote]
Not now. But the prophecy states that the will be interested. When? That's not mentioned.

QuoteThe way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Right now we have 6 billion people and 6 billion views. But those entering Heaven have all the same view. The true view.

QuoteHere is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age. regardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying a little/lot of correction is nothing compared to eternal bliss in Heaven?
If that is what you mean you debunked your own statement. What is a short life of earth compared to eternal bliss?
Plus why has the repenting has to be done on earth? A very caring and helpful non-Christian gets some correction and that's unfair. A mass murderer repents 2 seconds before he dies and steps right into Heaven?

QuoteOne other observation, most if not all UR's so far throw at me; they will quote one verse here or there and 99% of the time it appears to me anyway, completely out of context to what the verse actually meant and what the author was trying to convey.

And you Mark? Did you quote any verse in context on this forum? Where are the verses/context that shows (for example) that the wide road leads to an eternal lavapit? All ET verses seem to have fire/torture as context. Even if the words aren't even in the same page/chapter. Why doesn't the wide road lead to UR-correction? Or perhaps to annihilation.

Because you seem to like context. (good!) Prove the context of any verse you quoted.
And perhaps even more important debunk the UR verses.
You can't just answer an UR verse with an ET verse and then claim you debunked the UR verse. Because that would mean there are contradictions in the Bible.....

---

Maybe this questions and answers answers some of your questions.
http://www.tentmaker.org/contending.htm

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AM
Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point.

You claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 

Just like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comntext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Here is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here,  is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.


When are you signing up?


BTW, in case you missed my other post, what Christian Universalism document describes getting to heaven without Christ?

willieH: Hi Mark... :hithere:

You know, I have a daughter who is a "Christian" and was brought up while my wife and I attended the Salvation Army (for almost 20yrs)... 

She is 32 today... and occasionally when we speak of Spiritual matters, and when HELL versus Universal Reconciliation comes up, I say to her...

"Hey Steff... when you were 10 did you KNOW MORE about God then when you were 5?" -- (YES is her answer) -- then I say:  when you graduated high school at 18, did you KNOW MORE than when you were 10?" -- (YES again is her answer) -- "and now that you are a mother of 4 and you are 32 years old, ...do you KNOW MORE about GOD and His WORD than when you were 17?" -- (Again YES is her answer) --

Then I say to her "do you think when you are my age (64) that you shall KNOW even MORE about GOD then you do now? -- (one more time YES is her answer)...

Then I say, well that SAME process occured for me, REMAIN DILIGENT in your PURSUIT of GOD... and because LEARNING and REVELATION, is a PROGRESSION, ...KNOW that is it in the realm of POSSIBILITY that I have been given sight to things you are yet to SEE, and which I did NOT SEE for a long time, and have been REVEALED as time progressed within my studies...  :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AM
Thank you for responding. I truly appreciate it.

I have studied UR (although many on this forum are NOT willing to give me the benefit of the doubt). I admit that I am not a "schooled theologian" regarding UR, however, I feel that I know well the basic tenets of your faith. Here is the problem (if it's even that). I did get your analogy and certainly made sense.

I truly and sincerely wish to help you understand the concept of UR, but only GOD can reveal it in the heart...  As far as "schooled theologians"... all "schooling" does concerning theology is enlist more confusion than truth...

And just because one studies a subject does not mean that SPIRITUAL REVELATION shall result from that study... Only at the MOMENT and according to the PURPOSE OF YHVH shall REVELATION occur.  A man can study "UR" all life long, and begin with the motive to disprove it... Shall God be reactive to us?  Or is it HIS PROGRAM?

PAUL was literally "leading the way" in persecution of the "church"... and yet GOD one day "slapped him blind"... so that he might SEE... and he subsequently became of the greatest teachers (and writers) of the Scriptures in ALL of history...

If there are thousands of "Bible colleges" out there "spiritually teaching that 2+2=5, and you must make a choice from amongst them, then doesn't it serve one to better conclude on ones own, with GOD alone as ones teacher?

Just FYI... no one ever taught me a thing about music, but I have been a professional musician for over 40 years, as well as being self taught as a music producer, which I have done for 25 years...

Schools are a good thing when it comes to basic information in any given area... but in ANY given area of research... there is ALWAYS MUCH MORE to learn...  When it comes to GOD... the Holy Spirit is the ONLY TEACHER... the rest of us, rightly so, must be yielded TOOLS in His hand... aspiring to the lofty desire, that HE might use us in His work...

QuoteIt matters because its Gods plan and he has an election to enjoy a certain allotment. who would not want to enjoy the allotment of the ages/eons? and be witness too them?

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMJust for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven.

Well, as I explained to you in my previous post... NO man CAN come to the WORD, except he be DRAGGED -- BY GOD --> to it -- John 6:44 -- The FLESH is a powerful thing Mark, as you well know.  It desires to be FUFILLED... not STARVED of that FULFILLMENT... By NATURE... men do not COME to God because they CANNOT!  And when comes time, according to GOD's CALLING and Ordaination... they must be DRAGGED to the WORD, and then the WORD begins transforming the NATURE of the man...

The WORD creates FREEDOM in man -- John 8:32 -- "FREEDOM" from what?  Freedom from the CARNAL NATURE of man... It is a process, as Paul indicates occuring within himself in Romans 7... (which, as long as we are living IN it, there shall be times we fail) as John agrees -- 1 John 1:8-10 & 2:1 --

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMWhich brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. SO WHAT!

Heaven is not the GOAL... Serving, Knowing and Loving GOD is the Goal... In order to please Him, we must be willing to do as He instructs is best for us... WHY?  Well Mark... don't know how old you are (if your sig "64" indicates your birth year, you are 45), but wherever you are on your pathway, ...what you DO, shall come into play...

FIRST -- If you are SOWING to the flesh (indulging its pleasures), then you shall REAP the WRATH of God which IS (now) revealed from Heaven -- Rom 1:18 -- Bringing the Creator's anger against you, is NOT a good idea!  This WRATH can bring AIDS, Cancer, Heart disease, take away children, cause pain, disease in loved ones, mutation, you name it for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for God...  Any thing can and WILL possibly occur in your life, as you persistently DISOBEY the stated WILL which you come to KNOW... You could bring CANCER into your CHILDS life... for the SINS of fathers DO visit their children -- Ex 20:5 -- God shall not be MOCKED -- Gal 6:7-8 -- by you or me!  We SHALL reap that which we SOW... Is that enough "SO WHAT", bro?   :sigh:

SECOND -- and I place this 2nd because it is the proper order of things of GOD -- 1 Cor 15:46 --  As we submit ourselves into the hand of GOD, we become useful TOOLS and He may WITNESS His WORD to and through us to others... which becomes ETERNAL JOY for it is of that which is fruit of the SPIRIT against which there is NO LAW and therefore, NO WRATH -- Gal 5:22 -- and is THAT which shall survive the FIRE of this LIFE -- 1 Cor 3:14 -- for it is HOLY and OF CHRIST -- "fruit" of the WORD of GOD...

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMIn the end I/everyone will be in heaven. Some with lots of treasure and allotment and others with less but IN HEAVEN REGARDLESS.

This is such "earth-bound" thinking which is taught and promoted to the Church by its fallacy-ridden leaders, it is sorrowful...  :sigh:

They would have you think that if you "goody-2-shoes" enough here, that you get a "crib with a view" instead of a lowly apartment on mainstreet...  :sigh:

REWARD is not of a MATERIAL or MONETARY nature Mark... REWARD is the BLESSEDNESS of your dedication to GOD, while in this SINFUL flesh... which shall LIVE HONORABLY forever... NO one shall be JEALOUS or ENVIOUS of Your "reward" (as they are in this life of fame, material or monetary success)... They shall PRAISE GOD for your willingness to be HIS LIGHT in the DARKNESS!

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMThe way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age.

This is where my personal view may differ from the generalizations you make of "UR's"...

I believe ALL punishment and "chastisement" takes place within the life which is lived in the FLESH... In other words... the Pain and Suffering that ANYONE will endure is NOW, in THIS LIFE... THIS LIFE is the LAKE OF FIRE...

NOW is the Wrath REVEALED... Of the FLESH shall we reap corruption (ill health, death) for that which is SOWN to it... There is no "AGE" to come where GOD will be TORTURING anyone...

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMregardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

You speak out of your hat, bro... Again, I refer to my example of things which TAKE PLACE in THIS LIFE, and are about TEN SECONDS... in a 200 meter race it is SUCH a  BRIEF "period of time" that it quickly expires, well before the race is completed...  yet to that SAME person with their hand on a STOVE BURNER... it is a "time period" which is (literally) ENDLESS in DURATION...

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMOne other observation, most if not all UR's so far throw at me; they will quote one verse here or there and 99% of the time it appears to me anyway, completely out of context to what the verse actually meant and what the author was trying to convey.

In discussion, verses must be quoted... and the CONTEXT must deny the proposition (UR) in order to invalidate the proposition... which, in the case of "proof texts" of Universal Reconciliation do not do...

Quote me one (since you have been studying the concept of the Salvation of ALL)... and SHOW where the concept of UR is DENIED in the CONTEXT, I will be happy to respond...  :dontknow:

One more thing... there is NO Biblical DIRECTIVE for "CONTEXT"... this is a THEOLOGICAL imposition made by MEN who teach from the WORD, and BIND or IMPRISON the WORD from expressing itself... demanding IT be read according to THEM...

There are MYRIADS of examples which note TRUTHS which CAN and DO, stand IN and OUT of CONTEXT, but here is one forya:

Matt 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

Okay Mark... CHRIST was sent ONLY to the LOST [DESTROYED = apollumi #G622] Sheep of ISRAEL -- Matt 15:24 --

So in this CONTEXT of Matt 19:19 is CHRIST speaking to JEWS... so if we firmly apply your CONTEXTUAL demand... then ONLY JEWS are to "Honor their moms & dads, and love their neighbors as themselves"... for the CONTEXT and CHRIST's mission dictate that THEY are the CONTEXTUAL target of this statement...

No offense but such thinking is NONSENSE... but it does satisfy the THEOLOGICAL DEMAND of "CONTEXT"

Men who are BOUND, demand the things around them to be BOUND, one of which is the WORD of God which does NOT make such a demand of CONFINEMENT to "CONTEXT"... :mnah:

If you have found a BIBLICAL demand of CONTEXTUAL CONFINEMENT, which is stated in the WORD...  :director:  ...I'm ALL EARS bro...  :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMAgain, thank you for your response and kindness. God Bless

Though you may not be saying this to me, it is my prayer that God shall bless you as you continue to search for Him in His WORD...   :flowerred:

Quote from: willieH on July 10, 2009, 10:06:42 PM
There are MYRIADS of examples which note TRUTHS which CAN and DO, stand IN and OUT of CONTEXT, but here is one forya:

Matt 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

Okay Mark... CHRIST was sent ONLY to the LOST [DESTROYED = apollumi #G622] Sheep of ISRAEL -- Matt 15:24 --

So in this CONTEXT of Matt 19:19 is CHRIST speaking to JEWS... so if we firmly apply your CONTEXTUAL demand... then ONLY JEWS are to "Honor their moms & dads, and love their neighbors as themselves"... for the CONTEXT and CHRIST's mission dictate that THEY are the CONTEXTUAL target of this statement...

No offense but such thinking is NONSENSE... but it does satisfy the THEOLOGICAL DEMAND of "CONTEXT"

Men who are BOUND, demand the things around them to be BOUND, one of which is the WORD of God which does NOT make such a demand of CONFINEMENT to "CONTEXT"... :mnah:

If you have found a BIBLICAL demand of CONTEXTUAL CONFINEMENT, which is stated in the WORD...  :director:  ...I'm ALL EARS bro...  :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AMAgain, thank you for your response and kindness. God Bless

Great answers Willi.  As a quick side note, I think you know I'm one that does believe PROPER (sometimes debatable) context is important.  Scripture reconciles, no worries if taken in context, rightly divided and Spirit-revealed.  It says what it needs to say, and has the effect as God intends. 

As far as your example, I believe there are statements primarily to, primarily about, but edification for all;  the many layers of scripture that God uses to touch all.  My little elementary school example  :Sparkletooth:; we're probably not to go get a donkey and take it to Jesus to ride.  Someone else was told and meant to do that.  But we can learn and benefit from the telling of it, on many different spiritual levels.

One thing I think we miss on the point is this; when we perceive the scripture writers (led by the Holy Spirit) "taking things out of context", IMO, then that IS our context.  However God decided to use whatever pieces of scripture and where within His written Word, then that has become our context. 

I don't claim to understand all this, I think it can be complicated, but also that we (not you personally as I never recall perceiving you to do this) need to be careful and not just toss around scripture as suits our purposes...whether a UR'er or the hottest eternal hell-firer out there.  Just some thoughts.  Carry on, you're doing a great job explaining things  :thumbsup:.

P.S.  Your explanations regarding the scope of punishment,reaping/sowing in this life continues to resonate more and more with me.  Thanks.

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2009, 12:57:58 AM
P.S.  Your explanations regarding the scope of punishment,reaping/sowing in this life continues to resonate more and more with me.  Thanks.

Me too.

First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth. Discussions all over the net on topics such as this, evolution vs. ID, Catholicism, Islam, Scientology, reincarnation, I have yet to have anyone come to their senses and say "Oh my gosh! thank you so much for opening up my eyes. I now am going to be a Muslim or Mormon" etc. Now I concede that because I am not God and don't know EVERYTHING that the opposite of what I described above actually does take place. However, I'm sure that it is rare (with regard to internet discussions or debates) Anyway............

QuoteYou claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 

Ok here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now that we look at it with the verse prior, it is a continuation of what Paul was saying. And YES it's still TRUE.

But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

Now we know that God can do whatever it is He chooses. However that's not the point of this particular discussion.

This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)
He DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

QuoteJust like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comtext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Again your right! Not ALL versus need to be taken within the context of what either precede it or came after it. But as we see in the verse referenced above, it makes it abundantly clear what Paul meant. If Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it. But he didn't. He said God DESIRES, that is the operative word here. I know that you can't see it no matter how hard you try.

Quote
Here is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here, is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.

I have already answered this above

---

Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Let me guess......regarding the verses above, you will say that "see it's says it right here, and has given ALL things....... you see God saves ALL". And then you will probably say "the terms does not believe
and life don't actually mean what they say"

However, with all due respect, your just wrong! It's pretty clear here. he who does not believe the Son shall not see life means just that, if a person does not believe, he shall NOT SEE LIFE! By the way, he is talking about the spiritual life AFTER THE PHYSICAL DEATH. Period.

Quote
When are you signing up?

I have already signed up brother. I believe that He died for my sins and that it is a fully FREE GIFT that I have accepted through Him that has called me. I examine myself to make sure that I am in the faith. I study to show myself approved to Him rightly dividing the word of truth. I rejoice in the hope to come and I tell all that will listen the same message.

QuoteBTW, in case you missed my other post, what Christian Universalism document describes getting to heaven without Christ?

I will check it out. Should be interesting.......... :Chinscratch:

Dear Brother Mark.  Thank you for the kind attitude with which you are presenting your points.  It is within such a spirit that true discussion (rather than arguing) can occur.

Just a few quick thoughts, and please feel free to carry on with Bro. Willi.  I will keep my comments brief so as to not interfere too much with yours and Willi's flow.

The words in the greek for will and wish are different, and carry different connotations/weight.  God doesn't wish, He wills.

The word for all in the greek is an inclusive one, having a very broad scope of what it incorporates.  Also, eternal life is actually life aonian, and has specific meanings besides what orthodoxy has "always"  :bigGrin: taught us.

"....just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love..." Eph 1:4.  Some now (the elect/chosen, set aside for a specific purpose) the rest later..."each in his own order..." (1 Corinthians 15:23)

Just a few quick observations for further thought and exploration if you would be interested in checking them out.  Thanks, James.

Thinking a bit, sharing a thought to anyone interested.  I'm reminded that it's not my task to convince anyone of UR.  Paul said in I Tim. 4:10 that we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that are believing.  He did say to "charge these things and teach".  What he didn't say was "convince them".  I know God brought me to what appeared at the time to be a very disastrous, heart-breaking place in my life;  in fact, though not recognized at the time, doing me a great, undeserved favor;  to show me His plans of ultimate reconciliation of all His creation.  It was in despair that He brought me to reach out, and then He laid it before me.  I can only say "thank you God for Your mercy".  God's blessing, James.

Good Day, Mark!

I have read through this post, just prior to page three's beginning and I perceive that you have been most patient and persistent with the humans you are asking things of. And most gracious and encouraging toward those who are attempting to answer your logical questions with a spirit of love.

Therefore, I have concluded that you are, indeed, seeking truth, both because of your patient persistence in asking and your forgiveness, with correcting words, toward those who don't seem willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, even as you have put it.

If this conclusion about you is true and you are a seeker, then I think I may have an understanding to offer you and all who read this, that will be different in it's axiomatic foundation and therefore, in it's logical conclusions.

And if I am successful at conveying my mind to you, using only these limited things called 'words', I may impart to you something much better than answers to your questions: The ability to find the answers to all the questions you can think of, yourself.

It will take some time, hence you will have to continue to endure (hopefully you will find it pleasant) and be patient.

And I will be asking you questions to which I will expect answers, any answers at all, except, "I don't know."

Are you game?

For now, I'll assume the answer is, "Yes".

The first thing I want to ask is: Do you know what an  axiom (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/axiom) is?

And do you know it's place in logic for leading one to a logical conclusion?

The other kind of truth used in logic, besides axiomatic ones, are facts. Facts are one kind of truth. But, not all truth is found in facts. And so, we humans learn to link the two kinds of truth together, axioms and facts, in order to build to a logical conclusion, which conclusion we then assume is the truth.

This, then, is how we all think. Without even thinking about it.

And so I ask you and all else, to consider what I've offered, so far and see if you can perceive, for yourselves, the dirty little secret of logic.

(Oh yes, logic can be played dirty and has been much sullied by it's (ab)users, the wise and the prudent in this age's truths, even by those who label themselves "Little Christs".)

It is a most liberating secret to know.

Later, I will provide that secret, if no one else has perceived it. (And yes, please take that as encouragement, all of you, to offer up your thoughts.)

But, before I do, I want to ask you about this that you wrote:

Quote from: markp64 on July 10, 2009, 09:30:28 AM
Just for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven. Which brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. SO WHAT! In the end I/everyone will be in heaven. Some with lots of treasure and allotment and others with less but IN HEAVEN REGARDLESS. The way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age. regardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

Among several, there are two axioms I perceive in your thinking that I would like to ask you about for them leading you to make these statements.

You tell me, then, if this is an accurate summation of one of those two axioms:

"Fairness is about everyone getting what they deserve. Those who work hardest should get the most reward and those who work least, the less. And those who do no work, but, instead, flaunt their inactivity and pursue pleasure... nothing at all. And those who fail, though they tried real hard, should be given a break."

Lots of humans, including myself, are used to thinking this way. It just seems so right, doesn't it?.

Therefore, I would ask you to consider this parable of Jesus, with that idea of fairness in mind.

"For like is the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a householder, who came out at the same time with the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
Now, agreeing with the workers for a denarius a day, he dispatches them into his vineyard. And, coming out about the third hour, he perceived others standing in the market, idle. And to those he said, 'You also go into my vineyard, and whatsoever may be just I shall be giving you.' Now they came away. Now, again coming out about the sixth and ninth hour, he does similarly. Now, about the eleventh, coming out, he found others standing. And he is saying to them, 'Why stand you here the whole day idle?' They are saying to him that 'No one hires us.' He is saying to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.'
Now, evening coming on, the lord of the vineyard is saying to his manager, 'Call the workers and pay them the wages, beginning from the last, to the first.' And, coming, those hired about the eleventh hour got a denarius apiece. And, coming, the first infer that they will be getting more. And they also got a denarius apiece. Now, getting it, they murmured against the householder, saying, 'These last do one hour, and you make them equal to us who bear the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
Yet he, answering one of them, said, 'Comrade, I am not injuring you! Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Pick up what is yours and go away. Now I want to give to this last one even as to you. Is it not allowed me to do what I want with that which is mine? Or is your eye wicked, seeing that I am good?'
Thus shall the last be first, and the first last." ( Matt 20: 1-16 CLV)

And I would also ask if you could tell me what the main lesson was in the parable of the prodigal son as told in  Luke15: 11-32 "....A certain man had two sons...  (http://www.concordant.org/version/NewFiles/03_Luke.htm)? In other words what was it that prompted Jesus to tell this remarkably rich story about agape and forgiveness?

Also, you wrote of the fairness of God, as opposed to the fairness of men, when you quoted Ezekiel 18:25 &29, with this conclusion:

QuoteIMO I think that if you read ALL of Romans Chapter 9 and Ezekiel Chapter 18 you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair.

So, I would ask you:  What was it Israel was saying that Jehovah was doing that was unfair and which prompted Jehovah to direct these words at them?

Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

In other words, tell me, in your own words, what was the wrong way of thinking that Jehovah was trying to correct in the Israelites when He said this?

The second axiom I perceive that drives your thoughts, I sum up this way:

"What is there to stop me, or anyone else for that matter, besides the threat of hell, from doing as I damm well please? Therefore hell must exist just to keep anyone from thinking that they can get away with this kind of thinking.

Does that sound accurate to you?

If so, Does it sound 'fair' that there might be some who get to live lives of lies, enjoying the pleasures of sin, for a season and still get to heaven, after 'only some chastisement', maybe even ahead of those who gave all that great sin stuff up in order to please God in this life?

Let me ask you then, with that axiom in mind, what your thoughts are on this that Jesus said (in context, to his disciples about the persecutions they would face as they heralded the Gospel):

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy (not 'killing') the soul as well as the body in Gehenna." Matt 10:28 CLV

Why did Jesus use two different, but related Greek words, to describe these actions? What is the difference between these two words that He choose to employ that difference here?

Which leads me to ask: "Why would both of these things, body and soul, need to be destroyed not just killed?"

And I will also ask: "What part of the human will survive the destruction process?"

For a hint to the answer of that very loaded question,  I give you these words of Paul's concerning a particular human committing a particularly egregious sin:

"Absolutely, it is heard that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife.
And you are puffed up, and mourn not rather, that the one who commits this act may be taken away from your midst.
For I, indeed, being absent in body, yet present in spirit, have already, as if present, thus judged the one effecting this, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus), to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Cor 5: 1-5 CLV

And now I'm going to ask you a very hard question:

We know what flesh is... What is spirit?

I ask because Jesus said this, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten of water and of spirit, he can not be entering into the kingdom of God. That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit. You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You must be begotten anew.' John 3:5-7 CLV

It seems to me that in order to understand what He means here, we need to know what spirit is, just like we already know what flesh is, if we are to know what He means by 'begotten anew'.

One more thing; a personal note. As I was coming to perceive the truth in the understanding that currently goes by the moniker 'Ultimate Reconciliation' or 'UR', which really wasn't a hard thing for me, given what I believe, I still found myself wanting to cling to the notion of that peculiar hell that was translated into existence by King Jame's ulterior motivated interpreters.

(That statement is one of historical fact. It is, therefore, a truth, not an opinion.)

And so, I had to ask myself an honest question in order to get past that wanting. I asked myself, "Why do you want that hell to exist? Given the powerful proofs against it, why do you still insist it exist?

My honest answer was because I liked the idea of very bad people suffering forever. I truly liked it. I wanted those who have done those horrible things that make my blood boil, like those doctors that assist mothers in killing their babies in the womb, like child molesters and child pornographers and rapists and bigots and political liberals and all those who had personally done bad things to me, like my ex, to burn forever in hell.
Of course, I didn't want it to be me who would send them there; I wouldn't like that. But... if my God sent them there... then I could enjoy it!
And if by some miracle, any of them ever became a Christian then I guess I would forgive them, too.

Needless to say, this honest answer did not sound to me like I was someone who was possessed of the agape (fondness and affection) that is God, but possessed by something else foreign to it.

That was my turning point.

And so I will ask you the same honest question I asked myself: "If it could be proved to you that peculiar hell that you know so well was actually translated into existence, why would you still want it to exist?"

I have many more things I can talk about and ask questions of. So, should you desire it, Mark, we can continue to exchange words until you are satisfied.

So, until your reply, I say, as always,

Be good!

It's what you were created to be!

Like your post, El.  :thumbsup:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6403.msg68047#msg68047

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AM
First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth.

Not worried about it,  not an expectation of mine, nor have I indicated that.

Quote
Ok here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

No problem.

Quote
But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

I am not required to get the meaning you accept through the context you assert.  You know that already.

Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'

So, my perception of 1 Timothy 2:4 is in context with scripture, not word play.

Quote
This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)
He DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

You would assume wrong.   It is the manner in which our will is free that is the issue.  All will freely accept the gift.  That's just how it is in scripture.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Phl 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Phl 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.


Seriously, I've been down this road many times, if you wish me to believe that every tongue confessing that JESUS IS LORD "For the Glory to the Father" is anything but salvation, save your breath,  God himself will have to force me otherwise against my will.

I will await God beating me to a pulp for thinking too highly of him. 

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2009, 05:56:58 AM
Like your post, El.  :thumbsup:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6403.msg68047#msg68047

:bigGrin: Thanks jabcat.

By the by, I know I have a long, 4 syllalbe screen name and I appreciate the accepting gesture that it is to shorten long names to a quaint and quick nick-name, but... El?!?

I mean, I'm not... Him. Ya know what I mean?

I've been nicknamed 'elyew' and that's quaint and nonsensical and I like it, but 'El' is... ummmm... a bit to short.  :grin:

Be good!

elyew

Oh c'mon, don't be so insincerely modest.  Some people just can't take a compliment  :laughing7:.

Just think in these terms;  "El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch, or Yahweh." - source Wikipedia

Anyway, OK, I'll come up with something else from Eleutheros...let's see;  eros?  the?  ut? 

Maybe something backwards...sore?     

elyew seems to me too much like eyew (:eeew:).  But hey, if you like it, I'll try that one or come up with something I like better.  One or two here call me 'jabby'  :grin:.

Anyway, after all that, I did like your post.

Mark, just a quick point that stuck out to me,
  Posted on: July 10, 2009, 08:58:24 PMPosted by: markp64

QuoteIf Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it

,

Paul does tell us this in: I Tim. 4:10 that we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that are believing

and not only does he tell us that, he charges Timothy to: "charge these things and teach"

Quote from: jabcat on July 11, 2009, 09:07:02 AM
Oh c'mon, don't be so insincerely modest.  Some people just can't take a compliment  :laughing7:.

A modestly insincere compliment, eh? OK, thanks! I'll take two, please!

QuoteJust think in these terms;  "El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch, or Yahweh." - source Wikipedia

I have always been partial to the name 'Apollo', perhaps that god will do...

QuoteAnyway, OK, I'll come up with something else from Eleutheros...let's see;  eros?  the?  ut? 

Maybe something backwards...sore? 

Well, OK. Sometimes eros does lead to sore....   

Quoteelyew seems to me too much like eyew (:eeew:).  But hey, if you like it, I'll try that one or come up with something I like better.  One or two here call me 'jabby'  :grin:.

As you wish, Jabby!

Perhaps you could combine Hebrew and Greek and call me HaElianos The little god...

QuoteAnyway, after all that, I did like your post.

Thanx again. So, are you gonna tackle some of the questions?  :Whistle:

And be good!
It's what you were created to be!

willieH:  Greetinz brathiz  :icon_king: & sistiz  :icon_queen:

The only PERFECT (which means "complete") result of GOD's intended mission for CHRIST, and it not so much as an IOTA, is found returning VOID (empty in even ONE case), ...is that CHRIST indeed SAVED the WORLD which GOD so LOVED...

Even ONE lost, is an INCOMPLETE result of the Divinely INTENDED and often stated mission AND results:

Luke 2:10 -- GOOD tidings/GREAT JOY (news) to ALL PEOPLE
John 3:16 -- God LOVES (eternally) the WORLD
1 John 2:2 -- CHRIST covered the sins of the WHOLE WORLD
Col 1:20 -- the cross RECONCILED -- ALL (not just some) THINGS
Matt 18:11 -- ALL are LOST
Luke 19:10 -- ALL are LOST
2 Pet 3:9 -- God PLAINLY expressed His desired result for ALL

Only men which are deaf of Spiritual Ear, shall not hear this plainly stated message, repeated over and over and over and over and over...  :sigh:

Instead they shall persist in bringing OTHER than GOOD NEWS to the WORLD which GOD so (forever) LOVES...

Quote from: markp64 on July 09, 2009, 01:51:59 AM

Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

(http://members.cox.net/phazelwood/CONTEXT1.jpg)

Ahh Yes and amen,,

John 3:16

the simplicity and the Love of God is Great!

Good News! for sure  :cloud9:

willieH: Greetings to all...  :hithere:

I've grown weary of speaking to Mark and being ignored by him, so I will continue in this thread commenting on his words (where God leads me) for the benefit of others following along...  :cloud9:

Mark is basically here to argue against UR, but to this point has hardly put up any kind of arguement against it... and to this point has put up nothing that REFUTES it...  :dontknow:  As is shown below:

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AM
First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth. Discussions all over the net on topics such as this, evolution vs. ID, Catholicism, Islam, Scientology, reincarnation, I have yet to have anyone come to their senses and say "Oh my gosh! thank you so much for opening up my eyes. I now am going to be a Muslim or Mormon" etc. Now I concede that because I am not God and don't know EVERYTHING that the opposite of what I described above actually does take place. However, I'm sure that it is rare (with regard to internet discussions or debates) Anyway...

Why is Mark here?  Is he not here to try to "convince us" that we are "gone astray"?  Let's face it... we have GOOD NEWS... and its magnetic GOODNESS and REASON, is that which has drawn him here...  :laughing7:

He is admittedly a "hell believer", which means that he MOST CERTAINLY, FEARS it...

However the WORD notes that LOVE -- CASTS OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- and anyone who CONTINUES IN FEAR, is NOT made perfect [complete] IN LOVE --

(1)  there IS no command to teach HELL, but the church teaches it...

(2)  there are no examples of the Apostles warning of HELL, but the church teaches it,

(3)  there is no "trinity" in the WORD, but the church teaches it,

(4)  there is no mention of "free will" in the WORD, but the church teaches it...

Need I list them all?  There are many more -- Eternal Separation / Going to Heaven / Sinners prayer / Spiritual Israel / the "millennium" /   ...the TRUTH is that MOST of what the church "teaches" isn't in the WORD... to include the demand of "CONTEXT"...

If Mark could find even ONE VERSE for any of these he would... one which SPECIFICALLY notes these "teachings", and which lets the WORD speak for itself concerning these without the aid of a "THEOLOGIAN" to "color in" the doctrine...  :dontknow:

QuoteYou claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMOk here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now that we look at it with the verse prior, it is a continuation of what Paul was saying. And YES it's still TRUE.

But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

Now we know that God can do whatever it is He chooses. However that's not the point of this particular discussion.

This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)

Oh really?  Hmmm...  :Chinscratch:

In hopes that the ENGLISH WORD "desire" might somehow defer what is being stated is pathetic... What GOD "WILLS" or "DESIRES" are NEVER temporal notions... they are PERMANENT and ETERNAL... for GOD NEVER changes -- Mal 3:6 -- neither does His WORD -- Heb 13:8 -- Yet, Mark would try to insert TEMPORAL content into the DESIRE or WILL of GOD, for the purpose of supporting his fallacy... thinking that another "ENGLISH word" will better establish his position, when all along...  All the (english) word "DESIRE", in replace of "WILL" does, ...is LOOK at GOD from the "NORTH instead of the SOUTH"...  :laughing7:

It is the attempt to apply the FINITE [using a "version" of the word which uses the ENGLISH word "desire" instead of WILL]... to the INFINITE...   :mshock:

The LOVE of GOD, which is essentially WHO and WHAT He ...IS... NEVER changes, ...NEVER!  And GOD so LOVED the WORLD (which means the ENTIRE CREATION)...

Also Mark makes the attempt to insert the idea of "FREE WILL" as that which is conveyed in this CONTEXT... please!   :laugh: :pointlaugh:  (Sorry if you are looking in Mark, no offense is intended, just got tickled by the idea), ...but this CONTEXT has NOTHING to do with "FREE WILL" whatsoever, nor does it mention it...  Mark is grabbing his own feelings (in purple above) of the above verses, and inserting those feelings into it...  :dontknow:

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMHe DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

Aside from the verses in CONTEXT before, and after say NOTHING of this "acceptance" neither does any other context...  Did you notice that he presented NO Scripture to found his idea of "accepting CHRIST" or "accepting the GIFT"?  Where does it state we must "ACCEPT CHRIST"? or where does it state we must "ACCEPT" His "gift"?  or where does it say it is "OFFERED"?  :dunno:

This just amounts to pure INOBSERVATION of what the Scriptures PLAINLY say... All one has to do is read John 6:44 which notes that it is IMPOSSIBLE to COME to CHRIST unless GOD draws [drag in Greek] that one... Also, It is also IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to CONFESS [the words which can save] that JESUS is LORD, except by the EMPOWERING of GOD -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- and if THAT is not enough to refute that MEN are not "FREE" to "accept" this "gift" unless AIDED by God, ...then we have the words in John 14:6 which note that man CANNOT come to YHVH except He is AIDED by JESUS...  :dontknow:

Here's what we have:  Cant come to CHRIST, unless YHVH draws us, ...Cant confess His name to be saved, unless YHVH empowers our lips to do so, ...cant come to YHVH unless JESUS brings us to Him...

WHERE is the FREE WILL?  WHERE is the "acceptance" FREELY done?  Where, where, where, Mark?  :Book:

QuoteJust like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comtext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMAgain your right! Not ALL versus need to be taken within the context of what either precede it or came after it. But as we see in the verse referenced above, it makes it abundantly clear what Paul meant. If Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it. But he didn't. He said God DESIRES, that is the operative word here. I know that you can't see it no matter how hard you try.

Desires, Deschmires... how weak can an arguement be... the "DESIRE" (if that is the english word which must be used) remains ETERNAL for it comes from GOD... however:

:faint:  Paul DID say that in 1 Tim 2:3-4 -- For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ...WHO WILL have ALL MEN to be SAVED and to COME unto the knowledge of the truth...

The Scriptures that I have provided have already noted that MEN cannot COME unless DRAWN to the TRUTH (WORD of GOD) -- BY GOD!

It is FINITE FOOLISHNESS to think that the Creator DESIRES something to be (ALL MEN to be SAVED), and has PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE and POWER to do so, but goes ahead and makes something [man] which will spoil that DESIRE, and leave Him and His "DESIRE" ETERNALLY UNFULFILLED...  Get REAL! 

If it is my DESIRE to have a million dollars, and I have $100,000 so far, and I KNOW how to get the rest, but I give my $100K to the first guy I meet on the street to hold it for "safe keeping", is that DUMB or WHAT?  Well Mark is making a far worse proposal of GOD and His "smarts"...

Come on sports fans!  This is IGNORANCE raised to infinity... for it thinks that a FINITE and CORRUPT entity is handed the ABILITY to confound the PERFECT and INFINITE!  Those who really "believe this"... I have some "ocean front property" in Oklahoma you might be interested in!  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

QuoteHere is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here, is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMI have already answered this above

Where?  :dunno2:

Quote

---

Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Let me guess......regarding the verses above, you will say that "see it's says it right here, and has given ALL things....... you see God saves ALL". And then you will probably say "the terms does not believe
and life don't actually mean what they say"

Of course the MEAN what they say... It is just that Mark is unable to see that "meaning"...  Notice the WORD says "the wrath of God ABIDES on him" -- it does NOT say "WILL ABIDE", ...it speaks PRESENTLY... but then again... who are we to argue with Tim LaHaye?   :laughing7:

Btw... can't wait for the next book Tim writes that I also WON'T buy!  The Harry Potter series carries more truth in it...

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMHowever, with all due respect, your just wrong! It's pretty clear here. he who does not believe the Son shall not see life means just that, if a person does not believe, he shall NOT SEE LIFE! By the way, he is talking about the spiritual life AFTER THE PHYSICAL DEATH. Period.

These verses do not mention the supposed "afterlife"... they are speaking of the PRESENT... for those who do not see the SON in this life, certainly are not going to partake of the Spiritual life that can and IS lived and enjoyed, while on earth... rather the WRATH -- Rom 1:18 -- which IS REVEALED from Heaven against ALL UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, is the bowl of PORRIGE these shall "munch on"...

Quote
When are you signing up?

Quote from: markp64 on July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AMI have already signed up brother. I believe that He died for my sins and that it is a fully FREE GIFT that I have accepted through Him that has called me. I examine myself to make sure that I am in the faith. I study to show myself approved to Him rightly dividing the word of truth. I rejoice in the hope to come and I tell all that will listen the same message.

Rightly dividing eh?  What is RIGHT about teaching doctrines which are not in the WORD, how can one "rightly divide" something that is not even IN THERE?

It is sorrowful that folks such as Mark, can jettison LOVE for HORROR... and then attempt to come into this camp of the Saints of YHVH and His Son... with such CORRUPTION, and call it "rightly dividing", ...is indeed sorrowful, without the power of the support of the WORD, and shall be refuted, as long as I am here at TM... 

:Peace:

Quote from: willieH on July 12, 2009, 11:39:32 AM
I've grown weary of speaking to Mark and being ignored by him, so I will continue in this thread commenting on his words (where God leads me) for the benefit of others following along...  :cloud9:

"You can lead a person to water, but you can't make him drink."

Although, kudos brother Willie, for giving the truth of His Word.

peacemaker