Should Christians take up arms?

[jabcat]

The issue about protecting someone weaker in immediate danger is a difficult one. I don't think standing by and allowing a child to be hurt is the absolute result of what I am saying. I'm responding to the "take up arms" in the sense of going to war, or seeking death penalty. I wouldn't stand by and let a child be hurt. I asked for God's grace though in handling in a Christ like manner (ie the money changer situation) not in a worldly way.

I agree with you, but "in a worldly way" would need clarification for me.  I believe Jesus was angry, strong, and made a lot of racket that day - knocking stuff around.  I'm personally (no proof) convinced He didn't lash a few of those fellows with His whip.   :dunno2:  We're not told specifically (as far as I know it's not recorded, but maybe it is somewhere historically).  To me, "worldly" would be screaming, cursing, just trying to injure someone because I got a kick out of it or wanted something personal from it.

 

I was also responding to the concealed and carry for self protection. I just don't see the early church with that mindset. The apostles weren't just insulted, they were whipped and stoned and beaten.

I have concealed carry and I employ it.  It would be hard to protect that innocent person you mentioned above if confronted by 3 or 4 thugs with knives, clubs, or a gun who had intent to rob, kidnap, murder, if I wasn't carrying a weapon.  I live in the St. Louis area.  These things happen on a regular basis.  Thankfully God has not allowed or put me in a situation where I had to use a weapon.  But I have ducked behind a concrete wall before in an attempt to not get shot.  Again, me getting killed is one thing.  Not being prepared if at all possible to protect my family or other innocents who may be placed in my charge, IMO and FOR ME, would feel derelict on my part.  I'm sure others have a different - and maybe even better perspective - and have more faith than I do.

The idea that Jesus mentioned practical things doesn't mean that he wasn't using them for parable usage. That's what parabolic language is all about. And, again, if he was being literal, the apostles did a pretty lousy job through their lack of self defense.

:dontknow:  things to think about

No matter what - how "well-prepared" one may be, etc., even armed to the teeth - guns, knives, swords and hand grenades falling out of their pocket - the final result is determined by the Lord.  I just believe He often uses various and sundry things to accomplish His purpose.  For instance - if someone has no food and no means to obtain it, I believe He can literally put flour in their container.  But I don't think I personally should just sit around waiting for that as long as HE PROVIDES the means for me to get off my rear end and do something to "provide" for my family.  As always, "I, but not I". 

[jabcat]

This conversation has so many variables and layers to it.  I didn't mean to post anything else right now, but just as I signed off this hit me (excuse the pun).

If I were to absolutely rule out any owning of means of protection, feeling that it was a sin and wrong to do; should I still call 911?  :faint:

[jabcat]

Hey Seth.  If I felt I "lost this discussion", could I say "I just got shot out of the saddle"?    :LH:     :high5:

[Seth]

I think we agree on some point for sure. I mean conceal and carry to protect one's self, (ie whoever messes with me is gonna get a bullet in the rear). That just makes me wonder how one's faith can be tested with manifold trials if one is protecting ones self from those very same trials with a deadly weapon.

When I mean worldly way, I mean like how you described. Jesus didn't let his judgement become a carnal excuse for power. Our carnal instinct, adrenaline etc can lure so that our minds are not in the right place.

Not only that Jesus was judging God's house, such as how Paul instructed to let God judges those on the outside and Paul preferred to focus on the church.

To that end, Jesus never laid a finger on a Gentile. Didn't call for the death penalty, or for his followers to join a battle against Rome.

[Seth]

Hey Seth.  If I felt I "lost this discussion", could I say "I just got shot out of the saddle"?    :LH:     :high5:

:laughing7: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

  one thing I learned ..a long time ago.....never say never.   Sure,we can say, why I'd never do this or that.......

  and when put to the test..find ourselves doing that very thing.......

    Peter said 'not me Lord!!!!" everyone else..but not me!

[Seth]

Amen to that.  :iagree:

[dajomaco]

  one thing I learned ..a long time ago.....never say never.   Sure,we can say, why I'd never do this or that.......

  and when put to the test..find ourselves doing that very thing.......

    Peter said 'not me Lord!!!!" everyone else..but not me!

:iagree: Room for the Holy Spirit of God

[micah7:9]

Heard this for a very long time, "Here's another oldie, this one with connections from my mom - "I want to be spiritual.  But I don't want to be so heavenly-minded that I'm no earthly good".   :laughing7:  (thanks mom  :HeartThrob:)"

And it no longer makes sense. :HeartThrob: After all being said including myself, I find that I am yet carnal in my thinking and am quite double minded, but I guess that leaves me in good company. And to offer kill as murder and murder as not kill, I don't know. :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Heard this for a very long time, "Here's another oldie, this one with connections from my mom - "I want to be spiritual.  But I don't want to be so heavenly-minded that I'm no earthly good".   :laughing7:  (thanks mom  :HeartThrob:)"

And it no longer makes sense. :HeartThrob:

It makes sense to me, I have an idea of what she meant.

[micah7:9]

Heard this for a very long time, "Here's another oldie, this one with connections from my mom - "I want to be spiritual.  But I don't want to be so heavenly-minded that I'm no earthly good".   :laughing7:  (thanks mom  :HeartThrob:)"

And it no longer makes sense. :HeartThrob:

Maybe not to you, but it does to me.  Maybe you don't know anyone like that.  :dontknow:

Knew a lot of folks like that.

[jabcat]

sorry, maybe i misunderstood what you meant.  i thought you were saying the saying itself didn't make sense.  my bad.  yes, you know what i mean then.

[jabcat]

as far as the murder/kill thing...

i'll look into it further.  but IMO, if it strictly means 'kill' period, then God would have had many people break His own Law by having them conquer lands, kill thousands/hundreds of thousands (?) of people by His direct command.  I don't believe He would have them break His Law, so I believe that makes it a justified killing, i.e., not murder.  I'll get more on it, because that's how I understand it but right now can't give you much more "evidence".   :high5:

[jabcat]

to offer kill as murder and murder as not kill, I don't know. :HeartThrob:

:)

from a questionable source (wiki)..in a hurry, more later, but this might stimulate something further that's helpful;

"You shall not murder" (Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ) (sometimes translated as You shall not kill (KJV) or Thou shalt not kill (LXX; οὐ φονεύσεις), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1] specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17.

The imperative is against unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[2] The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also allows for justified killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.

[Shev]

I think the most important aspect to me is simply this: All truth is bound up in the person of Jesus Christ. He is the express image of the Father, and I am being changed into that image day by day. Do I really believe that Jesus Christ would use violence - and potentially deadly violence at that - to defend Himself or others? Do I believe He would take a human life? I truly don't.

Seeing as so much justification for violence is taken from the OT, I will go in there to draw a useful parallel to help with my point. When I think of Jesus saying to Peter "could I not ask my Father and have more than twelve legions of angels?" it also makes me harken back to Elisha and his servant, when the king of Syria sent soldiers to capture the prophet at Dothan:

Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city.  15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, "Alas, my master! What shall we do?"

16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."  17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.  18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with blindness." And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

19 Now Elisha said to them, "This is not the way, nor is this the city. Follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom you seek." But he led them to Samaria.

20 So it was, when they had come to Samaria, that Elisha said, "Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may see." And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and there they were, inside Samaria!

21 Now when the king of Israel saw them, he said to Elisha, "My father, shall I kill them? Shall I kill them?"

22 But he answered, "You shall not kill them. Would you kill those whom you have taken captive with your sword and your bow? Set food and water before them, that they may eat and drink and go to their master."  23 Then he prepared a great feast for them; and after they ate and drank, he sent them away and they went to their master. So the bands of Syrian raiders came no more into the land of Israel. (2 Kings 6:14-23)

I love this passage, as it demonstrates the wonder of seeing the unseen, and knowing the mighty hand of God in desperate situations. As a parallel to Christ in the garden it really opens up even more.

Another really interesting point about Jesus and the legions of angels, is that He said "more than twelve legions" - in other words, more than a legion for each of the twelve apostles! If it were not so serious it would cause a wry smile to think of Peter unwittingly seeing himself as a better defense than an entire legion of angels! And in the same way, can I take up a gun, and think of myself likewise?

[Jock]

James, thanks for the kind word. Firearms are illegal in Britain except for the very rich who go out on each other's estates to shoot pheasants, deer and geese/ducks.

There are other things though that are more lethal than a BB gun, plus I have a way to flee to a place in the highlands of Scotland. I have also been putting back food and water, enough to offer my neighbors at least, a meal.

Some time ago, I was made aware of the potential dangers that are looming up and I prayed. I spoke honestly with Him about what was in my heart to do. He has given witness, twice. That's enough for me. I even purchased a Gagercounter  (spelling) for that Fukushima radiation that's spreading around the globe.

My hope is to encourage my American brothers to do likewise. Even just to store food and water for pete's sake! What I am doing I am doing because of love. Love for God who has entrusted me with my family, love for my neighbors and love for the brethren.

I hope that I NEVER have to raise my hand to another, God forbid but I am preparing myself should that situation arise, I pray that it doesn't.

I'll make another post with a couple of links for you.

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

[Jock]

This is from the UK so you may have to work through the various accents

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=uk+preppers+documentary&qpvt=UK+preppers+documentary&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=5A6A10681645C1BE4B495A6A10681645C1BE4B49

[Jock]

Another one...................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL95OoKzcFA

[Jock]

Now here's a feller with a whole different kind of accent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru78oMKZV7M

That's it for the links but there is a whole wealth of them out there.

Blessings


Jock :Peace2:

[Jock]

James, you have a concealed carry licence and I think that's cool. I was just thinking about that crazy guy that came into the cinema in Aurora (Col?) and he had an AR15 with a huge magazine and started blasting away. Had you been there with a concealed weapon, you might just have seen a window where you could have taken that guy down/or out. Anyways, just a hypothetical thought.

Shalom :banana:

Jock.

[jabcat]

James, thanks for the kind word. Firearms are illegal in Britain except for the very rich who go out on each other's estates to shoot pheasants, deer and geese/ducks.

There are other things though that are more lethal than a BB gun, plus I have a way to flee to a place in the highlands of Scotland. I have also been putting back food and water, enough to offer my neighbors at least, a meal.

Some time ago, I was made aware of the potential dangers that are looming up and I prayed. I spoke honestly with Him about what was in my heart to do. He has given witness, twice. That's enough for me. I even purchased a Gagercounter  (spelling) for that Fukushima radiation that's spreading around the globe.

My hope is to encourage my American brothers to do likewise. Even just to store food and water for pete's sake! What I am doing I am doing because of love. Love for God who has entrusted me with my family, love for my neighbors and love for the brethren.

I hope that I NEVER have to raise my hand to another, God forbid but I am preparing myself should that situation arise, I pray that it doesn't.

I'll make another post with a couple of links for you.

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

Beautiful post Jock.  The highlands of Scotland..aaahhhhh

As far as the theater thing Jock, yes, if placed in that position I would attempt to prevent other innocent people from losing their lives by hoping to stop the attack.  Only God knows about a situation and how He will intervene and who/what He will empower in a given moment or circumstance. 

Also I agree with much of what Seth and Shev have to say, absolutely.  I just personally don't think there's a cookie-cutter, black/white/one size fits all answer that perfectly fits everyone exactly the same.  Everyone's done a good job of sharing "what this means to me" instead of "this is what you should do".  :2thumbs:    Some of the things it seems to me "fits all", and each has to take it before the Lord individually to determine what it looks like for them, are things like;  follow God's leading in one's life as best as possible, including to love others, have a pure heart, clean conscience, and right motives.  I believe this includes seeking to follow His command to not murder/kill unjustly [according to God's Law];  all of which IMO requires looking to Jesus, using discernment, sound judgment, and wise counsel.

Blessings.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[Tom]

I believe God is love. I believe peace is a fruit of the spirit. I believe I should love my associate as myself. I also believe Christ died willingly as a sacrifice for all mankind even though he had the power to stop it from happening. But, even though Christ taught us to love our enemies, it is prophesied that Christ will rule Israel in the next eon when some criminals will be killed, and their corpses will be burned in Gehenna. Christ will also judge unbelievers before the great white throne, and they will be killed with the second death in the lake of fire. God has killed many people in history. To kill is simply to deprive of life, but murder is the killing of a human being without moral or legal right. There are different words used in the ancient languages for these two different ideas. The two different ideas have been confused by inaccurate translation of scripture as has been done elsewhere such as with Gehenna and hell. I believe death will eventually be abolished and all mankind will have immortality at the consummation of the eons when God is all in all. In the meantime I think self-defense, even with lethal force, is justified in this wicked eon. That's why I agree with James about carrying a weapon to do so. A gun is simply a tool that can be used for good or bad. Evil will be nullified at the consummation of the eons, but it exists now to humble us. It's good to pray and trust God, but that doesn't mean we should just be passive and let something bad happen if we know how to stop it. Believing in the teachings of Christ doesn't mean you should just let your home be invaded and your family be murdered. I believe God expects us to defend our loved ones to the best of our ability. I think it's wrong for governments to disarm law abiding citizens who need guns to protect themselves against criminals who have guns. The Old Testament isn't the only place where there's justified killing. Have you read Revelation lately? When Christ comes again, he won't appear as the submissive victim of corrupt religious leaders. He will fight and defeat the forces of evil.

"And I perceived heaven open, and lo! a white horse. And He Who is sitting on it is called "Faithful and True," and in righteousness is He judging and battling. Now His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, having names written of which no one except Himself is aware, and He is clothed in a cloak dipped in blood, and His name is called "The Word of God." And the armies in heaven, dressed in cambric, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. And out of His mouth a sharp blade is issuing, that with it He should be smiting the nations. And He will be shepherding them with an iron club. And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty. And on His cloak and on His thigh He has a name written: "King of kings and Lord of lords." And I perceived another messenger, standing in the sun. And he cries with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which are flying in mid-heaven, "Hither! Be gathered for the great dinner of God, that you may be eating the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of the strong, and the flesh of horses and of those sitting on them, and the flesh of all freemen as well as slaves, and of small and of great." And I perceived the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered to do battle with Him Who is sitting on the horse and with His army. And the wild beast is arrested, and with it the false prophet who does the signs in its sight, by which he deceives those getting the emblem of the wild beast, and those worshiping its image. Living, the two were cast into the lake of fire burning with sulphur. And the rest were killed with the blade which is coming out of the mouth of Him Who is sitting on the horse. And all the birds are satisfied with their flesh." (Revelation 19:11-21)


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[Seth]

But, even though Christ taught us to love our enemies, it is prophesied that Christ will rule Israel in the next eon when some criminals will be killed, and their corpses will be burned in Gehenna.

Well not everyone agrees with that interpretation of course. I don't. I see it as a metaphysical thing. Nevertheless, I believe I am to give vengeance to God and not myself. Paul says to let God be the judge of those outside the church, and to focus on the church. In terms of war, or seeking the death penalty (which I think are issues relevant to this discussion) if I join those causes then I believe that is acting in judgement upon them and not giving that place to God. I believe the role of the church is to spread peace and love into the earth and not worry about or get entangled with the machinations of the world.

[Tom]

Acting in self-defense is not seeking "vengeance." It is simply meeting force with force to preserve the life of yourself and your loved ones.