Should Christians take up arms?

[joeteekay]

Makes me wonder why Paul was constantly being beaten down and never used a sword, and why none of the apostles recommended a good blade to defend themselves against persecution. Yet Peter said that this suffering was all part of the trial of their faith, more precious than gold. I think Jesus was speaking about a different kind of cloak and a different kind of sword, personally.

I agree Seth. Jesus often spoke in parables. Did He when He said sell your garments and buy one (a sword).

I've always found it interesting that Jesus told the disciples (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

Did Jesus mean this?

Eph_6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

:2c: :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Yes Marie

In the garden of Gethsemane the Lord didn't want a small skirmish going on, He was going to die for the world. He didn't want to be arrested and accused of being a Zealot or something. Wouldn't the Sanhedrin just have loved that!

Before all this, the disciples lacked for nothing. But now, this is Jesus saying "I am going to my Father, you will need those things now because there are dangers and I won't be here" My paraphrase.

Shalom  Jock  :Peace2:

:2thumbs:

I believe it's both things.  Filled with the Spirit and having the sword of the Lord.  But also, being prepared as living in a physical, tangible world.  Again though, we do nothing "good" without His empowerment, so whatever the means, He provides and all good gifts come from above.

[Seth]

Makes me wonder why Paul was constantly being beaten down and never used a sword, and why none of the apostles recommended a good blade to defend themselves against persecution. Yet Peter said that this suffering was all part of the trial of their faith, more precious than gold. I think Jesus was speaking about a different kind of cloak and a different kind of sword, personally.

I agree Seth. Jesus often spoke in parables. Did He when He said sell your garments and buy one (a sword).

I've always found it interesting that Jesus told the disciples (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

Did Jesus mean this?

Eph_6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

:2c: :dontknow:

:thumbsup:

If not, the apostles were doing a lousy job of keeping Christ's  advice and rather doing harm to nobody that attacked them.

[jabcat]

I've always found it interesting that Jesus told the disciples (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

I'm thinking that's why Peter had a sword in Gethsemane.. but of course Jesus healed the guards ear Peter cut off.. but nevertheless.. I've wondered about that verse (36) to take a sword.. referring I guess(?) to perilous times?
:Peace2:

Agree.

James, your story about the guy on the roof made me think of H Katrina because those kinds of scenarios did happen. Your analogy was very good. God is our provider, at some point He will provide our death but in the meantime He may send 12 legions of angels or maybe a Chopper, or He may provide a 9mm. I think everybody should go before God, hopefully to know His will, which may be different for each of us?

Otherwise, we are just whistling in the wind. It shouldn't divide the brethren though.

Enough from me on this.

Regards

Jock.

:)

[jabcat]

Again, I believe as with many things, some of us are just going to see things differently, come at it from different perspectives.  We all have our own personalities, conscience, even perhaps different points of service, responsibilities, and places within the kingdom ("let not one say I'm a foot, I'm a hand, etc., so not part of the same body"). 

One person may be called to stay on their knees, and thus in that way bring protection from the Lord for those walking around with a sword.  On the other hand, there may be a time when the Lord may use the one walking around with a sword to protect the one on their knees praying.  Personally, I'm OK doing both.  Others may not be, and that's OK.   :Peace2:  Blessings.

[marie glen]

Again, I believe as with many things, some of us are just going to see things differently, come at it from different perspectives.  We all have our own personalities, conscience, even perhaps different points of service, responsibilities, and places within the kingdom ("let not one say I'm a foot, I'm a hand, etc., so not part of the same body"). 

One person may be called to stay on their knees, and thus in that way bring protection from the Lord for those walking around with a sword.  On the other hand, there may be a time when the Lord may use the one walking around with a sword to protect the one on their knees praying.  Personally, I'm OK doing both.  Others may not be, and that's OK.   :Peace2:  Blessings.

     :smile: :smile: very nice!

[CHB]

Even Jesus said, that if his kingdom were of this age his servants would fight. They would fight to protect him and his rulership.

(1Tim. 5:8) But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house {or kindred} he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I would think this is speaking about taking care of them in any way possible.

I have a magnum pistol and I pray I never have to use it but there may come a time, who knows. I would use it to protect myself if I am forced to.

CHB

[Tom]

I understand why some believers are hesitant to use weapons to protect themselves, but I think it's due to taking some verses out of context. I agree that Christ told Peter to put away his sword in the garden simply because it wasn't the right time to use it due to the fact that it was God's will for Christ to die for all mankind. Yes, we are to love our associates, but I don't think that means we're supposed to let somebody unjustly attack and possibly kill somebody else when we have the power to stop it. If we see a ferocious animal like a dog, a mountain lion, or a bear attacking a loved one, shouldn't we try to stop it? I live in South Florida where it's possible to be attacked by alligators and pythons which can kill you and eat you, and I wouldn't hesitate to use my gun if I or somebody else was attacked. Why should I hesitate to shoot a ferocious human being if I or a loved one was being attacked? I think self-defense is a natural instinct and just common sense, and I don't think it contradicts scripture.

"For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens: A season to give birth and a season to die; A season to plant and a season to chop down what is planted, A season to kill and a season to heal; A season to breach and a season to build; A season to weep and a season to make merry; A season of wailing and a season of dancing; A season to fling away stones and a season to collect stones together; A season to embrace and a season to stay far from embracing; A season to seek and a season to count as lost; A season to keep and a season to fling away; A season to tear and a season to sew; A season to hush and a season to speak; A season to love and a season to hate; A season of war and a season of peace." (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)

That scripture does not contradict the Ten Commandments. When I was brought up in the Roman Catholic Church, I was taught to believe it is a sin to kill, but I now know that was due to mistranslation of the ancient language. There is a difference between "kill" and "murder." I think a person is justified in not only using force against force for self-defense but even killing if necessary in doing so. When we shoot in self-defense, our intention is not to kill but to stop the attack with as much force as is necessary. Sometimes that results in the death of the attacker and sometimes it doesn't, but sometimes lethal force is necessary to stop a violent attack. To those who say they trust in God to protect them, I say I agree, but God provides the tools for us to do so to save our lives and those of our loved ones just as God provides medical tools for doctors to save lives. I think it's just as foolish to refuse to use the tools of self-defense to save lives as it is to refuse to use the the tools of medicine to save lives. I think folks who let their kids die because they've been convinced by a legalistic theology to trust God to heal, while ignoring the tools which God has provided for healing, are just as crazy as folks who let themselves and their loved ones be victims of violent attacks by criminals or terrorists while ignoring the tools which God has provided for them to defend themselves. The mass shootings sensationalized in the media before gun control is demanded are always done in gun free zones because the predators know there's easy prey there. Guns are not the problem. Disregard for the sanctity of life is the problem, and that's because the philosophy of materialism has so corrupted our culture that life seems to have no purpose or value and there seems to be no hope for those who don't believe in God. I think every living soul has the right of self-defense that comes from God not the second amendment, and that doesn't negate loving our associates as ourselves. I think believers need to wake up and understand that you don't have to be a pacifist when confronted by violence in this wicked eon. Yes, I know scripture says our true enemies are not blood and flesh but evil spirits, and I agree. But, like I said before, I think it's a mistake to take verses like that out of context and assume that means we're supposed to be passive during an attack against us or our friends and family. You may think you have nothing to lose because, if you're killed, you know you'll eventually get to be with God when you're resurrected, but your quick and violent death while you're passive may result in the torture, rape, and murder of your family who you're supposed to protect. I believe it's the responsibility of every person able to do so to do whatever is possible to protect those less able to defend themselves. I may die in the process of doing so, but at least I will have tried. Yes, God provides and protects, but God usually operates through believers. All comes from God; all is being operated according to God's will; and all is for God. But we believers are chosen to be the instruments of God's will, and God has given us tools to do so. I think it's God's will that we use any tools we can to do God's will, and, if that means using a gun to stop a violent attack by a predator against the innocent, I say it's our responsibility to do so. And I think it doesn't matter if that predator is swimming, slithering, crawling, or walking on four legs or two legs.       

[Seth]

I agree that verses can be taken out of context. But Paul told the church to model themselves after him as an example. He never said to defend ourselves with violence, certainly not joining an army to go kill an enemy. The way he lived his life was to not fight violence with violence. So he preached as much with his life as he did with his words. He did as he instructed them to do. In fact he even said not to judge those on the outside of the church, that God will be their judge and that they should focus on the ekklesia (1 cor 5:2)

If I join an army to fight a war, how am I not judging those on the outside?

[micah7:9]

 :2c: Jas 1:8  a doubleminded man, unstable in all his ways.
I must say I agree with all the responses they make logical[carnal] sense. Yet in my mind I cannot fathom the Apostles and the believers carrying weapons... perhaps a staff.

Should what has been said (and I have admitted owning guns for protection) be true, then in my mind just where is my faith? Just how strong is my faith?
Do I maybe kill someone protecting my family or myself and go against Thou Shalt Not Kill?
Is there evidence in the Word of God that when a person is found by the Lord and becomes a believer that he bear arms for protection? It's a heck of a situation.

I know I must reconsider. I am an American and believe in the 2nd amendment, Yes I am an American[one mind] I am also being saved through Christ Jesus[one mind] who do I serve?
I am an American and father and will protect my family, yet I am being born from above and a son, can I depend on my heavenly Father to do the same for me?
Is it death I fear from enemies or is it just death I fear? Yeah it's a heck of a mind muddler.
Luk 16:13  No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Joh 15:13 Greater love than this has no one, that anyone may be laying down his soul for his friends."
Rom 8:35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 According as it is written that "On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter."
Rom 8:37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord." :2c: :HeartThrob:

[Shev]

I agree that verses can be taken out of context. But Paul told the church to model themselves after him as an example. He never said to defend ourselves with violence, certainly not joining an army to go kill an enemy. The way he lived his life was to not fight violence with violence. So he preached as much with his life as he did with his words. He did as he instructed them to do. In fact he even said not to judge those on the outside of the church, that God will be their judge and that they should focus on the ekklesia (1 cor 5:2)

If I join an army to fight a war, how am I not judging those on the outside?

Amen Seth. As I said in my prior posts, you think we would be left at least one example in the NT of an obedient believer using violence. Not having that, it is all OT examples.

[micah7:9]

I agree that verses can be taken out of context. But Paul told the church to model themselves after him as an example. He never said to defend ourselves with violence, certainly not joining an army to go kill an enemy. The way he lived his life was to not fight violence with violence. So he preached as much with his life as he did with his words. He did as he instructed them to do. In fact he even said not to judge those on the outside of the church, that God will be their judge and that they should focus on the ekklesia (1 cor 5:2)

If I join an army to fight a war, how am I not judging those on the outside?

Amen Seth. As I said in my prior posts, you think we would be left at least one example in the NT of an obedient believer using violence. Not having that, it is all OT examples.

:iagree: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

   (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

[marie glen]

..if I saw someone grabbing a child to abduct I would not hesitate to pick up a two by four (or whatever) and slam them side the head.. and would feel no regret..

If the christian nations had fought no wars it would have all been over a while ago, what with hitler, mao, stalin, and on and on.. it's one thing to turn one's own other cheek, but something else to let predators/terrorists keep slapping the weaker.. not that I am a fan of war.. :sigh: but perhaps that is what Jesus meant by Lk 22:36

If ISIS came to my house I likely would not defend myself but I would do every thing, every thing in my power to prevent the taking of my grand children by them.. or the taking of any others..

[micah7:9]

   (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

Are there anymore verses? I just ask.... there should be for a witness or two. I agree with Seth on the thoughts of the sword. :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

As for "Christian nations" fighting wars," God already has a label for me: "stranger in a strange land." I don't go by ifs. I know that's God is in control even on a national level, so I don't have to be involved judging the outside world. God is their judge and his method is nation vs nation, as it always was in the OT. I just don't have to be the one who swings those swords. I feel I can focus on the gospel of faith and love better that way and fulfill Paul's instruction not to judge those outside, and let God be their judge.

[marie glen]

I'm sure none think we should convert by sword, or live by the sword.. but i would never let ISIS for instance carry anyone away if it was in my hand and power to prevent it.. not my grand kids, and not any other's grand kids..

"I did not come to bring peace but a sword".. but I don't know if that fits, as it is about conflict about Him, and truth.. not the same as someone being in mortal danger..

And how far do we carry it.. let a rapist rape w/o using fist and claws to prevent..?

And Jesus did use a corded rope as a whip and overturned the sellers tables in the temple.. He didn't use a sword or club, but knotted rope.. but it wasn't exactly a passive act.. and He likely didn't hit anybody, but the tables and money, etc..

"If you knew the hour a thief was coming you would not let your house be broken into.."

In an ideal world none of this would be an issue.. But we live in a world and day of great evils.. I don't think any of us would let ISIS do whatever they want to our husband/wife or children, if we could prevent it..

[marie glen]

As for "Christian nations" fighting wars," God already has a label for me: "stranger in a strange land." I don't go by ifs. I know that's God is in control even on a national level, so I don't have to be involved judging the outside world. God is their judge and his method is nation vs nation, as it always was in the OT. I just don't have to be the one who swings those swords. I feel I can focus on the gospel of faith and love better that way and fulfill Paul's instruction not to judge those outside, and let God be their judge.

I find nothing to disagree with in that.. I too despise war and would not personally sign on.. even if I truly think ISIS should be stopped, by the nations, from their horrific carryings on..

[jabcat]

Again, lots of good responses, too many for me to reference individually, and I don't know that there's an absolute "right" answer ("yes", or "no") here that fits everyone.  Different functions.

micah, just a quick note about something you posted and I had thought about earlier but forgot.  As far as "thou shalt not kill"..without looking it up right now, I believe that actually is "thou shalt not murder", i.e., kill without justifiable cause.  I see that as not "being the aggressor, acting lawlessly or against the law.  Shedding innocent blood, i.e., living by the sword".  Just a quick  :2c: for perspective.   :Peace2:

(I also believe "sword" in various places means just that - a physical weapon and not always interpreted as spiritual.  In the example in question, in context I believe Jesus was talking about a real purse, real money, and real sword (good find on the whip marie).   But again, that's just my understanding and another  :2c:.

Here's another oldie, this one with connections from my mom - "I want to be spiritual.  But I don't want to be so heavenly-minded that I'm no earthly good".   :laughing7:  (thanks mom  :HeartThrob:)

[jabcat]

Hey Jock, you and your BB gun stirred it up, didn't you?   :LH:  It's amazing what a little BB can do.

Good times. 

Seriously, good job discussing a very difficult and slippery topic TM family.   :gimmefive:

[Seth]

The things that I keep going back to though, if in this particular case, if Christ is not speaking in parable (though unto them he spoke not without one) the Apostles and early church showed no signs of obeying Christ. What use did Paul have for a sword if he never defended himself? How could Peter "suffer as a Christian" and consider it a test more precious than gold if he was busy clashing swords with his attackers?

And yet if Christ's meaning were spiritual in this case, the Apostles most certainly sold their own cloak for a Sword.

[Lazarus Short]

I know I must reconsider. I am an American and believe in the 2nd amendment, Yes I am an American[one mind] I am also being saved through Christ Jesus[one mind] who do I serve?
I am an American and father and will protect my family, yet I am being born from above and a son, can I depend on my heavenly Father to do the same for me?
Is it death I fear from enemies or is it just death I fear? Yeah it's a heck of a mind muddler.
Luk 16:13  No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Given the depths to which 'Merica has fallen, from creditor to debtor, from the light of the world to "Go Home, Yankee!," from isolationism to the world's policeman, can we say, "Ye cannot serve God and America?"  I am increasingly uncomfortable at what is being done in my name, as a citizen.  I have moved from an "America first, without apology" mindset to something much more pacifistic.  I fear that America is one of the ten toes of the image knocked to smithereens by the stone cut out by something other than human hands.

[jabcat]

How could Peter "suffer as a Christian" and consider it a test more precious than gold if he was busy clashing swords with his attackers?

will need to think more about the first 2 points.  as far as this one, i posted this earlier; "I believe in turning the other cheek.  However, I personally see this as being willing to take insult, ridicule, be done wrong etc. without [literally or] figuratively "taking a brother to court".  Be willing to be wronged.  Even in a non-life-threatening situation, literally taking a slap without fighting back.  However - at some point (and judgment and discernment is a must) - I would likely protect myself.  But especially, others.  I think I'd find it easier to even be physically harmed or killed if it was just me.  But again, those within my trust and care?  I'm afraid I'd have to wield the sword in an attempt to protect them.  Not avenge them, but protect them if possible."     I think there are many ways to "suffer as a Christian" that don't involve physical violence, especially to the point of death.  I believe that's only one aspect of it - most other times are ridicule, rejection, disrespect, disbelief, etc.

And yet if Christ's meaning were spiritual in this case, the Apostles most certainly sold their own cloak for a Sword.

The reason I don't believe Christ's meaning was primarily spiritual here is, He also talked about taking other physical belongings, including money and a purse - things necessary to survive in the natural. 

[jabcat]

   (Lk 22:35,36) "when I sent you out w/o money, or packed bag" (paraphrased!) "did you lack anything? but now I tell you take money and a packed bag, and whoever hasn't a sword let him sell his garment and buy one.."

Are there anymore verses? I just ask.... there should be for a witness or two. I agree with Seth on the thoughts of the sword. :HeartThrob:

I just want to be sure no one thinks I'm trying to badger them into joining the NRA  :laugh:.  If anyone is solid in their stance and their conscience is good before God, what better thing is there.   :notworthy: 

However, as far as discussion and looking at the whole issue, would you consider this a 2nd witness?  "  But if you do that which is evil, be afraid; for he bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that does evil."  Romans 13:4

Note to Seth - I also believe there's ALWAYS a spiritual application, even to things like Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem.  However, not that that always rules out any natural/physical application as well (such as, I believe it was a real little donkey - cute little ears, swishy little tail..  :wink2:) but that it also tells us other things.  It wasn't an "air" donkey  :laughing7:.  OK, well, anyway... yes, as spiritual as we can be, on our "knees" as much as we need to be, trusting God in however He chooses to do so, to meet ours and others' needs.  Amen.

[Seth]

The issue about protecting someone weaker in immediate danger is a difficult one. I don't think standing by and allowing a child to be hurt is the absolute result of what I am saying. I'm responding to the "take up arms" in the sense of going to war, or seeking death penalty. I wouldn't stand by and let a child be hurt. I asked for God's grace though in handling in a Christ like manner (ie the money changer situation) not in a worldly way.

I was also responding to the concealed and carry for self protection. I just don't see the early church with that mindset. The apostles weren't just insulted, they were whipped and stoned and beaten.

The idea that Jesus mentioned practical things doesn't mean that he wasn't using them for parable usage. That's what parabolic language is all about. And, again, if he was being literal, the apostles did a pretty lousy job through their lack of self defense.

Maybe Jesus was just making a suggestion but the Apostles opted for nonviolence instead?  :dontknow: