Reincarnation and the Lake of fire

[dash]

Hi all.

I am trying to settle in my own mind whether reincarnation is scriptural or not.
It is not something I have given much thought to before and wanted to hear other's views.

I won't go into 'arguments' for or against reincarnation - I'd rather keep things strictly scriptural.

I have no preference either way, I just want to clear in my mind what the Scriptures actually teach.


What we know for sure from the Scriptures is this:

The Lake of fire IS the second death.
Translated better this tells us:
The lake/pond/harbour/haven of fire purification/correction is the second/the next/the other of two/the following one/the one afterward death.
Now this may indicate a possibility that there might be another 'lake of fire' after this one (since the word for 'second' can be translated 'next').
(So someone may 'die once (as appointed)' then 'face judgement' and undergo 'ANOTHER' death (correction in lake of fire)...  And on and on this may go...(Reincarnation).
Now... is it only the 'second death' that is a lake of fire, or is our first impending death also a lake of fire?  If we say any 'death' is 'a lake of fire' then is not what we are experiencing now a 'lake of fire' (in this lifetime (we walked through fire) (in the valley of the shadow of death))? Or do you see this lifetime and our impending death as 'not' a lake of fire and how so?

By 'lake' of fire I assume it is a case of not 'incremental chastisement' (for instance: being sprayed with firey water) but rather being 'submerged' in it/chastisement/refinement. - What are your views on this?  Would you agree with this?  Sort of - 'Ok buddy learn to swim and 'sposh' you are flung (cast) right in the deep end of the pool'?
The word here in Greek for 'cast' (into the lake of fire) is G906 ballo, which means:
'To throw or let go of without caring where the thing falls', to scatter, to cast, thrust etc.  It can also mean to put into, insert or pour.  It can be used in more (or less) 'violent' ways.  For example It is sometimes used in scripture as 'laid' or 'lying' (down) or 'put' etc.

Now we know that there is a 'consummation'.
We also know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point).
But what happens in that 1000 burning years? - Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm?  I realize NDE experiencers talk about there being 'life reviews' but I would like to keep this scriptural as much as possible.
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

The Scriptures tell us 'His ways are beyond finding out' but also that one day we will 'be known as we are known'.

I know there is a lot here to ponder and so I will leave my thoughts here for now.
If anyone can add anything; please do so. 
These are deep questions but I would like a range of views on this to consider.

Thank you!

[Andrew]

For me the me the best scriptural case for reincarnation is Jerimiah 18

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ?Go down to the potter?s house, and there I will give you my message.? 3 So I went down to the potter?s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

I've heard some talk about getting off the "wheel" of reincarnation...   

If reincarnation is true, I believe it's a lot more complex than eastern thought on the subject.

[jabcat]

No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

[dash]

For me the me the best scriptural case for reincarnation is Jerimiah 18

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ?Go down to the potter?s house, and there I will give you my message.? 3 So I went down to the potter?s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

I've heard some talk about getting off the "wheel" of reincarnation...   

If reincarnation is true, I believe it's a lot more complex than eastern thought on the subject.

Thanks Andrew.
Interesting passage.
To me this just means reshaping a thing.
I looked into the words used here in the Hebrew etc and it seems to indicate a 'rework' (like someone 'repenting' or having a change of mind).
Like If I were to make something out of clay and didn't like it, I could rework the clay, but the batch of clay would still be the same.

This would not convince me of reincarnation personally.

[dash]

No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

It's just one of those subjects isn't it.  :eek:

[jabcat]

No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

It's just one of those subjects isn't it.  :eek:

:) yep

This isn't a fully formed view yet, but it comes to me that "the cross" is the center of the reincarnation question (what it means, what all was accomplished, what was paid, etc).  Of course the cross is at the center of a lot of things!  But again, I feel particularly here.  Would need "fleshed out".

["it is appointed unto a man once to die..."]

[rosered]

  This has been discussed before a few times already on the Tentmaker

  I personally can not ever believe it is of a truth .

  Like James said ,  the cross is all there is and  Jesus died for the sins of the whole world

no need to come back again ?


scripturally  the only inklinking  ' is  that John the baptist come in the Spirit of Elijah

I believe that is just in the Spirt of truth to destroy the lies  and false ''prophets'' as to preparing the  hearts of fathers back  to the children

Luke 1
  ?16Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God.


17And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous? to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.




Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the LORD.

Malachi 4:6
And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Otherwise, I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Matthew 3:3
This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for Him.'"

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Luke 1:76
And you, child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways,


I believe that   Jesus Christ IS    the Lord of the dead and living

  and also considered  it is appointed unto me to die once than the judgment .

  but some have passed from death to life already   Jesus says I am in you , greater is He that is in you than in the world  that is the ONLY LIFE   in my own opinion


1 John 3:14, NIV: "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. ... Whoever does not love abides in death



because  Paul tells us a mystery  that everything is subject to Christ

Philippians 3:21
who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.


And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



Psalm 2:8,9
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession?

Psalm 18:39,47
For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me?

Psalm 21:8,9
Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee?



1 Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.




1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Ephesians 1:23
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

there is the resurrection of the just and the unjust , I believe it is the works that are judged in both cases

  in humility comes defeat
  death is the last enemy  and The last enemy that will be abolished is death itself
  so to me there is no  more death at all to come back from ??

flesh out lol      :laughing7:   ...  just my opinion

[jugghead]

For me, reincarnation is the basis for the theory of evolution

That by actions (whether an inside or outside influence) we can evolve (change/come back) into/as something different

Of which I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

[Ross]

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

[jugghead]

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

Liked what you wrote Ross

To expand on what I believe, for me, an understanding of "the second death" is our first death if it happens before our physical body dies. That the LOF is His purification process that we can go through either before our physical body dies or after. And that the purification process is our "way of thinking" being changed, which is why I believe Paul says, "be transformed by the renewing of the mind".

What I mean by this is two fold, first that if we still see ourselves as one with our physical body, upon its death we still believe that we die, but when that "way of thinking" is changed, we come to realize we have been separated from this physical body, I am still in my physical body but I am not of my physical body, which can be understood through "I am in this world but I am not of this world". We no longer view the death of our physical body as we ourselves dying, we are the spirit (breath) inside a body, we now see the death of our physical body as the means of transferring our spirit from the physical existence into the spiritual existence.

In short, when my physical body dies, I do not, I no longer view the death of my physical body as death, just a transfer of my spirit from one place to another.

and second, that our way of thinking is one of: if we are still, even partially connected to our physical body, in other words, still even partially connected to the flesh in our mind, we see ourselves as dying twice, first we see ourselves as dying when the physical body dies and also we see ourselves dying in the LOF which is the rest of the purification process. Which is why I believe that the words "appointed once to die" doesn't make sense to a lot of people. I myself believe that this term "appointed once to die" only has to do with the fact that EVERYONE will go into the LOF, into the purification process.

But if our way of thinking has changed about the physical death of our body, that it is a transfer of our spirit from one place to another, the second death has no power on us, simply because our mind has already been renewed on this aspect and we welcome the rest of the process.

Which for me, if we are no longer connected to any fleshly way of thinking we no longer see the LOF like a lake of fire in a physical sense, we see it for what it truly is, entering into Christ. For me, our way of thinking determines how we see, either as an "it" (the LOF) or a person (The Father and Son as ONE).

Again, just my opinion.

[dash]

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

Ross this is a great post.
I agree with all you say.
Thank you.

[dash]

Thanks for all the input.
I appreciate it and I've learned some things.

Going back to my first post though how would you answer these questions if a believer in reincarnation were to put them to you?

1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').
Reincarnation-ists?! Would perhaps say that this indicates being 'reborn' again to face 'another' death (lake of fire?)
Do you think this is a possibility and if not why?

2
If the lake of fire is the 'second' death, is it also the 'first death'?  Or are they two different things?
We know that death is 'cast' into the lake of fire so how does that work? - They must be different surely?
If the or 'a' lake of fire is the first death are we in a lake of fire now?
OR... Are we going through 'firey trials' now and if we don't get it right we are eventually CAST/PLUNGED? into a LAKE of fire (all your christmases have come at once sort of thing?!). - RIght into the deep end till you 'learn how to swim' so to speak?

3
We know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point). 1000 years is a long time...It is a lot of 'lifetimes' (if reincarnation were true).
Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm? - How does it work?
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

These are the questions I'm seeking answers too if anyone can help.

[dash]

To expand on what I believe, for me, an understanding of "the second death" is our first death if it happens before our physical body dies. That the LOF is His purification process that we can go through either before our physical body dies or after. And that the purification process is our "way of thinking" being changed, which is why I believe Paul says, "be transformed by the renewing of the mind".

Jugghead I have similar thoughts.
To be honest I don't actually believe in reincarnation, but I'm keeping an open mind for now until I have fully established what is true.
When you say the second death is our first death if we go through the 'fire' and are purified by it in this life is exactly what I believe, because the Scriptures tell us that overcomers will 'not be 'hurt' of the second death'.

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

What I mean by this is two fold, first that if we still see ourselves as one with our physical body, upon its death we still believe that we die, but when that "way of thinking" is changed, we come to realize we have been separated from this physical body, I am still in my physical body but I am not of my physical body, which can be understood through "I am in this world but I am not of this world". We no longer view the death of our physical body as we ourselves dying, we are the spirit (breath) inside a body, we now see the death of our physical body as the means of transferring our spirit from the physical existence into the spiritual existence.

What you are describing here is a thing which (for me) has come with ageing... I am not even sure I could have learned this another way.  It took a long time for me to come to this realization personally.  In fact I was thinking of this very thing this morning, how we are not to be polluted by the world, and how the flesh is regarded as 'nothing' in comparison to the spirit because it is the spirit that is the source of life, the flesh is a 'vessel' to carry the spirit.

In short, when my physical body dies, I do not, I no longer view the death of my physical body as death, just a transfer of my spirit from one place to another.

Yes exactly.

and second, that our way of thinking is one of: if we are still, even partially connected to our physical body, in other words, still even partially connected to the flesh in our mind, we see ourselves as dying twice, first we see ourselves as dying when the physical body dies and also we see ourselves dying in the LOF which is the rest of the purification process. Which is why I believe that the words "appointed once to die" doesn't make sense to a lot of people. I myself believe that this term "appointed once to die" only has to do with the fact that EVERYONE will go into the LOF, into the purification process.

But if our way of thinking has changed about the physical death of our body, that it is a transfer of our spirit from one place to another, the second death has no power on us, simply because our mind has already been renewed on this aspect and we welcome the rest of the process.

It's not often I see a mass of conflicting thoughts in my mind put into a clear wording!
Very good.

Which for me, if we are no longer connected to any fleshly way of thinking we no longer see the LOF like a lake of fire in a physical sense, we see it for what it truly is, entering into Christ. For me, our way of thinking determines how we see, either as an "it" (the LOF) or a person (The Father and Son as ONE).

Again, just my opinion.

A highly scriptural opinion also in my opinion.

[dash]

If reincarnation were true, what would become of such passages as:

Matthew 25:23
'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

There seems to be a hierarchy.
...Not a hierarchy in a 'I'm better than you' sort of way... But basically that the right people are in the right place (as is right). 
Or to say it another way:

2 Timothy 2:20
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

The 'great reversal'.
The first last, the last first.

[jugghead]

Thanks for all the input.
I appreciate it and I've learned some things.

Going back to my first post though how would you answer these questions if a believer in reincarnation were to put them to you?

1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').
Reincarnation-ists?! Would perhaps say that this indicates being 'reborn' again to face 'another' death (lake of fire?)
Do you think this is a possibility and if not why?

In what I believe, you already answered your own question in this by saying "it CAN be interpreted this way", so by interpreting it that way, it makes it a possibility. But it does not become possible if it is not interpreted that way.

2
If the lake of fire is the 'second' death, is it also the 'first death'?  Or are they two different things?
We know that death is 'cast' into the lake of fire so how does that work? - They must be different surely?
If the or 'a' lake of fire is the first death are we in a lake of fire now?
OR... Are we going through 'firey trials' now and if we don't get it right we are eventually CAST/PLUNGED? into a LAKE of fire (all your christmases have come at once sort of thing?!). - RIght into the deep end till you 'learn how to swim' so to speak?

Again, in what I believe, when we read the word "death", do we see it as something physical being thrown into the LOF, what we have interpreted as death in our own mind, or do we view it as what I stated in my reply to Ross, that it is the "idea/concept" of death in our minds, the reason I see it this way is because of the renewing of the mind, the renewing of the concept of death from not being death but a transfer or a movement forward into the next renewing of our own concepts/ideas, understood through "He will make ALL THINGS new".

3
We know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point). 1000 years is a long time...It is a lot of 'lifetimes' (if reincarnation were true).
Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm? - How does it work?
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

These are the questions I'm seeking answers too if anyone can help.

Again, in what I believe, is it what we interpret the false prophet and beast "as" in our own mind, do we see them as something physical or as something that can be in all of us as "thoughts" and "intents", that a false prophet can be a misleading "thought" and that the beast can be the "intent" of the heart to interpret and follow the false prophet/thought as truth.

For me, the whole purification process is "the renewing of the mind", the changing "OF" the way we think, which if you look up the original meaning of the word "repent", it has the meaning "to think differently".

As for the 1000 years, I believe it is a representation of the fullness of life, since Adam lived less than 1000 years, I understand this through the words "we all fall short of the glory of God", just as Adam fell short of 1000 years, so do all of us. Which can be understood through "a thousand years is like a day" with "the day" being the fullness of Christ.

But again, I will only say that this is what I have come to understand and it is just my opinion, you can accept it, consider it or reject it.

[rosered]

I hope to read   all the replies  better  when I can
I went to bed thinking about all this ...
  I recall a simplicity in Christ


the two laws  that come in the Spirit of truth are to LOVE God first , everything else would just fall into place
  many just never knew   unconditional LOVE  here at all  ,  and they did abide in hate which  is DEATH

and because they never knew Gods love they did not love anyone , nor themselves , just things .


I believe when they see Jesus for the first time and know  and understand that love they will  experience the lake of fire

being a pure love that burns away the  filth of all the fleshly desires

I know that JESUS COME to baptize with FIRE  and set the World on fire

the second  visit  is with the breath of His coming again taking all the vile out of the way

I believe LOVE never fails  and LOVE IS LIFE     no more death /HATE

Those that hate dwell  IN DEATH    if you murder in your heart you do not love God at all because you never saw Him and have seen your neighbours , if you hate  in your heart you hate yourself  and cannot love anything but possessions/things of power over others  evil things gained by deceit   and have  deceived your own heart . 

we are born again to love and be loved  and to know love /God

to simple ?



we know that hate is made to prove LOVE /GOD IS TRUE

[dash]

As for the 1000 years, I believe it is a representation of the fullness of life, since Adam lived less than 1000 years, I understand this through the words "we all fall short of the glory of God", just as Adam fell short of 1000 years, so do all of us. Which can be understood through "a thousand years is like a day" with "the day" being the fullness of Christ.

Good point. 

Isaiah 65:20
Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

There are so many ways of looking at these things.
Thank you.

[rosered]

 wow , I love this guys ALL THE IMPUT!!! 

  WOW 
got a lot out of this

   the flesh counts for nothing   , always  ready to die  ?
what if the soul  and the spirit  are the only  parts that have been divided  and matter to GOD ?  and are judged only   
both  matter to God and belong to HIM 

The verse in  Hebrews 4  comes to mind  dividing the soul and Spirit      two parts of death /hate to be made alive  in Christ
  and rest


11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow.

It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God?s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.?
   the first death is the soul in a man  , his life  and its purpose
  and  the second death is the spirit that must be joined in the LORDS HOLY SPIRIT AS ONE SPIRIT. ONE GOD  ONE Faith  ?

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

the know GOD is to LOVE HIM ..... They never knew the Love of God but were made for the purpose to prove GOD  IS TRUE  FOREVER

Exposing the  evil/hate by FIRE  ''  THAT LAW of love/ GOD ''  , that makes sin   a truth   that reality .
knees will bow and tongues will confess  LORD I never knew you  suffering is a big part of learning   truth

[dash]

I hope to read   all the replies  better  when I can
I went to bed thinking about all this ...
  I recall a simplicity in Christ


the two laws  that come in the Spirit of truth are to LOVE God first , everything else would just fall into place
  many just never knew   unconditional LOVE  here at all  ,  and they did abide in hate which  is DEATH

and because they never knew Gods love they did not love anyone , nor themselves , just things .


I believe when they see Jesus for the first time and know  and understand that love they will  experience the lake of fire

being a pure love that burns away the  filth of all the fleshly desires

I know that JESUS COME to baptize with FIRE  and set the World on fire

the second  visit  is with the breath of His coming again taking all the vile out of the way

I believe LOVE never fails  and LOVE IS LIFE     no more death /HATE

Those that hate dwell  IN DEATH    if you murder in your heart you do not love God at all because you never saw Him and have seen your neighbours , if you hate  in your heart you hate yourself  and cannot love anything but possessions/things of power over others  evil things gained by deceit   and have  deceived your own heart . 

we are born again to love and be loved  and to know love /God

to simple ?



we know that hate is made to prove LOVE /GOD IS TRUE

Rose, I hope I haven't kept you up with all this talk!

I am at the stage now in my walk (and have been for many years) when I can tolerate ANY idea and consider and look into it.  My will is God's because He knows better than me lol, and so I've learned to leave everything in His hands and as clay not to challenge the potter and I have peace of mind...Even when considering views that I really do not like.

Actually reincarnation is one of these views...I don't WANT it to be true, but I am going to consider it (for now) until I know for sure it's not.

As it stands I really don't think reincarnation is true at all.
I've never seen anything in scripture to indicate that.
In the same way I've never seen anything in scripture to show pillars that hold up the earth etc.  Some things are to not be taken literally and need discretion.
'He hangs the earth on nothing'.
I just go with what the Scriptures say - it just takes a while to comb through what they truly say.

Thank you for all your comments.  I totally agree with what you say.
Rose...To me God being all in all, is all of us humans 'loving each other as ourselves'...  Love all in all.
You hit the nail in the head with what you said.
No fear...ever.  Just love.

[dash]

wow , I love this guys ALL THE IMPUT!!!

  WOW
got a lot out of this 

Aren't these replys amazing?

the flesh counts for nothing   , always  ready to die  ?
what if the soul  and the spirit  are the only  parts that have been divided  and matter to GOD ?  and are judged only   
both  matter to God and belong to HIM 

I get what you are saying but have you considered also that the sword separates marrow and sinew (fleshly things)?

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow

the first death is the soul in a man  , his life  and its purpose

I would agree with this.
The 'ego' perhaps? (Wanting our 'own' (self destructive) ways.  (Our ways are not His ways). 

and  the second death is the spirit that must be joined in the LORDS HOLY SPIRIT AS ONE SPIRIT. ONE GOD  ONE Faith  ?

I'm going to have to meditate (focus) on this and get back to you. That's pretty deep.

[rosered]

 
  the 1000  year reign  of Adam  to me is the 930 years  as a sign and the 70 years  we now have is the last of Adam
  an hour ?
the last Adam The Resurrection Body to be made Alive in , holding the dead for last

?44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being;? the last Adam a life-giving spirit.


46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.?


  if 1000 years is a day  in Gods sight we have an hour to come in to the truth

God shortened the days unless no one would be saved , they kill and hate and abide in death has increased
  lawlessness   , is hate  for God

Revelations , or revealing of Christ  is the DAY OF THE LORD or the last Adam  that is the life giving Spirit

all that is written in the last  hour  is the Day of the Lord to conquer  and subdue  TO  reconcile all things in Himself , the WORD 

  made flesh by making it alive IN HIMSELF  by the love and jealousy  for the FATHER 
By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and nothing was not made without Him

HE will make alive though the Fire  of destroying everything that offends  the Word of truth by the Spirit of truth  that GOD is a consuming fire . 

[dash]

  the 1000  year reign  of Adam  to me is the 930 years  as a sign and the 70 years  we now have is the last of Adam
  an hour ?
the last Adam The Resurrection Body to be made Alive in , holding the dead for last

The 70th week?
This is why I never rule out people who think this way. There is truth in such things.
Personally I believe there is both a physical representation and a spiritual and it's important to try to see both.

?44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being;? the last Adam a life-giving spirit.


46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.?

  if 1000 years is a day  in Gods sight we have an hour to come in to the truth

The 'hour' or His judgement (7 years?). (Tribulation).

[rosered]

  yes , to me it is possible all things are possible with God



  I believe it is the dividing of the old earthly Adam from the  heavenly Adam in the RESSURECTED BODY


HE ALONE holds it all together  in Himself
  the divisions  Christ brought to the earth  during the baptism of death  is what is going to be  eliminated or ''cast off forever '' 
the perfection or completing  of   the resurrected body   ,  the end of all things 
the head was first Jesus Christ is the head and all authority  of the whole body  to be made whole entire  without a spot of blemish   as it all was going down and being formed  with all included   till the end . .

  HIS WORD is  going to return to the FATHER  TOTALLY in tact  by the HOLY SPIRIT activating it  to the very jot and tittle of it all   corporately   as ONE WHOLE fulfilling ..  Christ is fulling   all the law

  has Christ been divided ? no ,  never be , but died for all  and the sins for all , that  the divisions Christ brought by His baptism of Holy Spirit & fire would  divide the  two laws   of knowledge of   sin =death and  the new law  of LOVE  =life   

    in Himself , being both the LORD of the dead and the living  inside of His body to be made alive in the  end times .

49 ?I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

a holy Spirit to teach all  though the fire of earth , our minds and hearts on fire , as it is in heaven   to me fire is the clarity   and that removes the  elements in the way of getting though   to  GOD OF heaven ,   and is God being the consuming fire  of  love .    who can stand in the fire ? Isaiah   29  the city of David    mount Zion
love conquers all

[jugghead]

Hi dash, in respect to your reply in post 16, I did not say that the false prophet and the beast are our own mind, I merely pointed out that thoughts and intents can be these things "IN" a mind, not that they are the mind itself

blessings

[dash]

Hi dash, in respect to your reply in post 16, I did not say that the false prophet and the beast are our own mind, I merely pointed out that thoughts and intents can be these things "IN" a mind, not that they are the mind itself

blessings

Thank you for ensuring you corrected me for that.
It makes sense to me now.
Apologies for not reading that accurately.