Tentmaker Forum

Hi all.

I am trying to settle in my own mind whether reincarnation is scriptural or not.
It is not something I have given much thought to before and wanted to hear other's views.

I won't go into 'arguments' for or against reincarnation - I'd rather keep things strictly scriptural.

I have no preference either way, I just want to clear in my mind what the Scriptures actually teach.


What we know for sure from the Scriptures is this:

The Lake of fire IS the second death.
Translated better this tells us:
The lake/pond/harbour/haven of fire purification/correction is the second/the next/the other of two/the following one/the one afterward death.
Now this may indicate a possibility that there might be another 'lake of fire' after this one (since the word for 'second' can be translated 'next').
(So someone may 'die once (as appointed)' then 'face judgement' and undergo 'ANOTHER' death (correction in lake of fire)...  And on and on this may go...(Reincarnation).
Now... is it only the 'second death' that is a lake of fire, or is our first impending death also a lake of fire?  If we say any 'death' is 'a lake of fire' then is not what we are experiencing now a 'lake of fire' (in this lifetime (we walked through fire) (in the valley of the shadow of death))? Or do you see this lifetime and our impending death as 'not' a lake of fire and how so?

By 'lake' of fire I assume it is a case of not 'incremental chastisement' (for instance: being sprayed with firey water) but rather being 'submerged' in it/chastisement/refinement. - What are your views on this?  Would you agree with this?  Sort of - 'Ok buddy learn to swim and 'sposh' you are flung (cast) right in the deep end of the pool'?
The word here in Greek for 'cast' (into the lake of fire) is G906 ballo, which means:
'To throw or let go of without caring where the thing falls', to scatter, to cast, thrust etc.  It can also mean to put into, insert or pour.  It can be used in more (or less) 'violent' ways.  For example It is sometimes used in scripture as 'laid' or 'lying' (down) or 'put' etc.

Now we know that there is a 'consummation'.
We also know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point).
But what happens in that 1000 burning years? - Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm?  I realize NDE experiencers talk about there being 'life reviews' but I would like to keep this scriptural as much as possible.
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

The Scriptures tell us 'His ways are beyond finding out' but also that one day we will 'be known as we are known'.

I know there is a lot here to ponder and so I will leave my thoughts here for now.
If anyone can add anything; please do so. 
These are deep questions but I would like a range of views on this to consider.

Thank you!

For me the me the best scriptural case for reincarnation is Jerimiah 18

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ?Go down to the potter?s house, and there I will give you my message.? 3 So I went down to the potter?s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

I've heard some talk about getting off the "wheel" of reincarnation...   

If reincarnation is true, I believe it's a lot more complex than eastern thought on the subject.

No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2020, 09:55:04 PM
For me the me the best scriptural case for reincarnation is Jerimiah 18

18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 ?Go down to the potter?s house, and there I will give you my message.? 3 So I went down to the potter?s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

I've heard some talk about getting off the "wheel" of reincarnation...   

If reincarnation is true, I believe it's a lot more complex than eastern thought on the subject.

Thanks Andrew.
Interesting passage.
To me this just means reshaping a thing.
I looked into the words used here in the Hebrew etc and it seems to indicate a 'rework' (like someone 'repenting' or having a change of mind).
Like If I were to make something out of clay and didn't like it, I could rework the clay, but the batch of clay would still be the same.

This would not convince me of reincarnation personally.

Quote from: jabcat on November 26, 2020, 12:26:29 AM
No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

It's just one of those subjects isn't it.  :eek:

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 12:48:05 AM

Quote from: jabcat on November 26, 2020, 12:26:29 AM
No scripture for this post (maybe later). But, nah.    :laugh:

It's just one of those subjects isn't it.  :eek:

:) yep

This isn't a fully formed view yet, but it comes to me that "the cross" is the center of the reincarnation question (what it means, what all was accomplished, what was paid, etc).  Of course the cross is at the center of a lot of things!  But again, I feel particularly here.  Would need "fleshed out".

["it is appointed unto a man once to die..."]

  This has been discussed before a few times already on the Tentmaker

  I personally can not ever believe it is of a truth .

  Like James said ,  the cross is all there is and  Jesus died for the sins of the whole world

no need to come back again ?


scripturally  the only inklinking  ' is  that John the baptist come in the Spirit of Elijah

I believe that is just in the Spirt of truth to destroy the lies  and false ''prophets'' as to preparing the  hearts of fathers back  to the children

Luke 1
  ?16Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God.


17And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous? to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.




Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the LORD.

Malachi 4:6
And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Otherwise, I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Matthew 3:3
This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for Him.'"

Matthew 11:14
And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Luke 1:76
And you, child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare His ways,


I believe that   Jesus Christ IS    the Lord of the dead and living

  and also considered  it is appointed unto me to die once than the judgment .

  but some have passed from death to life already   Jesus says I am in you , greater is He that is in you than in the world  that is the ONLY LIFE   in my own opinion


1 John 3:14, NIV: "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. ... Whoever does not love abides in death



because  Paul tells us a mystery  that everything is subject to Christ

Philippians 3:21
who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.


And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



Psalm 2:8,9
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession?

Psalm 18:39,47
For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me?

Psalm 21:8,9
Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee?



1 Corinthians 3:23
And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.




1 Corinthians 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Ephesians 1:23
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

there is the resurrection of the just and the unjust , I believe it is the works that are judged in both cases

  in humility comes defeat
  death is the last enemy  and The last enemy that will be abolished is death itself
  so to me there is no  more death at all to come back from ??

flesh out lol      :laughing7:   ...  just my opinion

For me, reincarnation is the basis for the theory of evolution

That by actions (whether an inside or outside influence) we can evolve (change/come back) into/as something different

Of which I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Quote from: jugghead on November 26, 2020, 04:26:41 AM

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

Quote from: Ross on November 26, 2020, 05:43:27 AM

Quote from: jugghead on November 26, 2020, 04:26:41 AM

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

Liked what you wrote Ross

To expand on what I believe, for me, an understanding of "the second death" is our first death if it happens before our physical body dies. That the LOF is His purification process that we can go through either before our physical body dies or after. And that the purification process is our "way of thinking" being changed, which is why I believe Paul says, "be transformed by the renewing of the mind".

What I mean by this is two fold, first that if we still see ourselves as one with our physical body, upon its death we still believe that we die, but when that "way of thinking" is changed, we come to realize we have been separated from this physical body, I am still in my physical body but I am not of my physical body, which can be understood through "I am in this world but I am not of this world". We no longer view the death of our physical body as we ourselves dying, we are the spirit (breath) inside a body, we now see the death of our physical body as the means of transferring our spirit from the physical existence into the spiritual existence.

In short, when my physical body dies, I do not, I no longer view the death of my physical body as death, just a transfer of my spirit from one place to another.

and second, that our way of thinking is one of: if we are still, even partially connected to our physical body, in other words, still even partially connected to the flesh in our mind, we see ourselves as dying twice, first we see ourselves as dying when the physical body dies and also we see ourselves dying in the LOF which is the rest of the purification process. Which is why I believe that the words "appointed once to die" doesn't make sense to a lot of people. I myself believe that this term "appointed once to die" only has to do with the fact that EVERYONE will go into the LOF, into the purification process.

But if our way of thinking has changed about the physical death of our body, that it is a transfer of our spirit from one place to another, the second death has no power on us, simply because our mind has already been renewed on this aspect and we welcome the rest of the process.

Which for me, if we are no longer connected to any fleshly way of thinking we no longer see the LOF like a lake of fire in a physical sense, we see it for what it truly is, entering into Christ. For me, our way of thinking determines how we see, either as an "it" (the LOF) or a person (The Father and Son as ONE).

Again, just my opinion.

Quote from: Ross on November 26, 2020, 05:43:27 AM

Quote from: jugghead on November 26, 2020, 04:26:41 AM

I believe that both reincarnation and evolution are just man's different interpretations of God's process of creating us into His image

but that's just my opinion

Pretty good opinion. Awesomely similar to what I am about to post.

Reincarnation planting the seed of resurrection - just the way that is really happening is not known by all, but is part of the development program for the resurrection of all.

Seems the first death is the recognition by the ecclesia that Christ has died in full for us.
Though we will die in the physical we are already seeded for the spiritual.
Why we are told to take up the cross daily.
Also why Paul recognizes being crucified with Christ- it is no longer I who lives, but Christ in me.

Paul then says to the Corininthians about the different levels of bodies.
He points out the heavenly and earthly, flesh and spirit. At no point does he say we will receive some other form of body- he say we will be like Christ in every way. Changing our current body to be like His resurrected body- in all glory greater than how Moses looked when he descended after chatting on the mount.
In reincarnation there are different types of bodies but they are their levels of works to earn their position.

Christ has paid in full fall all.
When people are in brought into the resurrection those who do not know Him yet will need to die again as recognition of His works  being the way, not theirs.
The differences also in that resurrection seem to be described by the body having different functions, roles, abilities, yet all the same body.
One head, but organised body parts. Equal in value. All essential

Modern society values our levels by line-age, money, personal efforts-  all ranking us at mans' understanding.
Paul elaborates on us a couple of times as being one. reincarnation does not.

I.M.O the lake of fire shows the cleansing, burning away of the flesh. The second death. For those who are currently not trained or corrected to the path of righteousness- correct standing - Christ.

Not a speedy process for the coming events. All necessary so that we are one in Christ and nothing, or no-one, else.

Ross this is a great post.
I agree with all you say.
Thank you.

Thanks for all the input.
I appreciate it and I've learned some things.

Going back to my first post though how would you answer these questions if a believer in reincarnation were to put them to you?

1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').
Reincarnation-ists?! Would perhaps say that this indicates being 'reborn' again to face 'another' death (lake of fire?)
Do you think this is a possibility and if not why?

2
If the lake of fire is the 'second' death, is it also the 'first death'?  Or are they two different things?
We know that death is 'cast' into the lake of fire so how does that work? - They must be different surely?
If the or 'a' lake of fire is the first death are we in a lake of fire now?
OR... Are we going through 'firey trials' now and if we don't get it right we are eventually CAST/PLUNGED? into a LAKE of fire (all your christmases have come at once sort of thing?!). - RIght into the deep end till you 'learn how to swim' so to speak?

3
We know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point). 1000 years is a long time...It is a lot of 'lifetimes' (if reincarnation were true).
Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm? - How does it work?
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

These are the questions I'm seeking answers too if anyone can help.

QuoteTo expand on what I believe, for me, an understanding of "the second death" is our first death if it happens before our physical body dies. That the LOF is His purification process that we can go through either before our physical body dies or after. And that the purification process is our "way of thinking" being changed, which is why I believe Paul says, "be transformed by the renewing of the mind".

Jugghead I have similar thoughts.
To be honest I don't actually believe in reincarnation, but I'm keeping an open mind for now until I have fully established what is true.
When you say the second death is our first death if we go through the 'fire' and are purified by it in this life is exactly what I believe, because the Scriptures tell us that overcomers will 'not be 'hurt' of the second death'.

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

QuoteWhat I mean by this is two fold, first that if we still see ourselves as one with our physical body, upon its death we still believe that we die, but when that "way of thinking" is changed, we come to realize we have been separated from this physical body, I am still in my physical body but I am not of my physical body, which can be understood through "I am in this world but I am not of this world". We no longer view the death of our physical body as we ourselves dying, we are the spirit (breath) inside a body, we now see the death of our physical body as the means of transferring our spirit from the physical existence into the spiritual existence.

What you are describing here is a thing which (for me) has come with ageing... I am not even sure I could have learned this another way.  It took a long time for me to come to this realization personally.  In fact I was thinking of this very thing this morning, how we are not to be polluted by the world, and how the flesh is regarded as 'nothing' in comparison to the spirit because it is the spirit that is the source of life, the flesh is a 'vessel' to carry the spirit.

QuoteIn short, when my physical body dies, I do not, I no longer view the death of my physical body as death, just a transfer of my spirit from one place to another.

Yes exactly.

Quoteand second, that our way of thinking is one of: if we are still, even partially connected to our physical body, in other words, still even partially connected to the flesh in our mind, we see ourselves as dying twice, first we see ourselves as dying when the physical body dies and also we see ourselves dying in the LOF which is the rest of the purification process. Which is why I believe that the words "appointed once to die" doesn't make sense to a lot of people. I myself believe that this term "appointed once to die" only has to do with the fact that EVERYONE will go into the LOF, into the purification process.

But if our way of thinking has changed about the physical death of our body, that it is a transfer of our spirit from one place to another, the second death has no power on us, simply because our mind has already been renewed on this aspect and we welcome the rest of the process.

It's not often I see a mass of conflicting thoughts in my mind put into a clear wording!
Very good.

Quote
Which for me, if we are no longer connected to any fleshly way of thinking we no longer see the LOF like a lake of fire in a physical sense, we see it for what it truly is, entering into Christ. For me, our way of thinking determines how we see, either as an "it" (the LOF) or a person (The Father and Son as ONE).

Again, just my opinion.

A highly scriptural opinion also in my opinion.

If reincarnation were true, what would become of such passages as:

Matthew 25:23
'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

There seems to be a hierarchy.
...Not a hierarchy in a 'I'm better than you' sort of way... But basically that the right people are in the right place (as is right). 
Or to say it another way:

2 Timothy 2:20
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

The 'great reversal'.
The first last, the last first.

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 04:40:23 PM
Thanks for all the input.
I appreciate it and I've learned some things.

Going back to my first post though how would you answer these questions if a believer in reincarnation were to put them to you?

1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').
Reincarnation-ists?! Would perhaps say that this indicates being 'reborn' again to face 'another' death (lake of fire?)
Do you think this is a possibility and if not why?

In what I believe, you already answered your own question in this by saying "it CAN be interpreted this way", so by interpreting it that way, it makes it a possibility. But it does not become possible if it is not interpreted that way.

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 04:40:23 PM
2
If the lake of fire is the 'second' death, is it also the 'first death'?  Or are they two different things?
We know that death is 'cast' into the lake of fire so how does that work? - They must be different surely?
If the or 'a' lake of fire is the first death are we in a lake of fire now?
OR... Are we going through 'firey trials' now and if we don't get it right we are eventually CAST/PLUNGED? into a LAKE of fire (all your christmases have come at once sort of thing?!). - RIght into the deep end till you 'learn how to swim' so to speak?

Again, in what I believe, when we read the word "death", do we see it as something physical being thrown into the LOF, what we have interpreted as death in our own mind, or do we view it as what I stated in my reply to Ross, that it is the "idea/concept" of death in our minds, the reason I see it this way is because of the renewing of the mind, the renewing of the concept of death from not being death but a transfer or a movement forward into the next renewing of our own concepts/ideas, understood through "He will make ALL THINGS new".

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 04:40:23 PM
3
We know the false prophet and the beast are cast into a lake of fire and that by the time the devil and death is cast into it with them - 1000 years have passed (so these folks have been 'burning' 1000 years already (up until this point). 1000 years is a long time...It is a lot of 'lifetimes' (if reincarnation were true).
Is this period 'lifetimes' on earth until they get it right? Or is it some 'chastisement' in another realm? - How does it work?
We know that death is eventually 'swallowed up by life'.  However, how long does the purification process of the devil and death take to get to that point (where death is swallowed up by life?) - This could be another 1000 years?  Maybe tens of millions or billions or even forever?  Because if God is infinite, at what point does He become 'all in all'?

These are the questions I'm seeking answers too if anyone can help.

Again, in what I believe, is it what we interpret the false prophet and beast "as" in our own mind, do we see them as something physical or as something that can be in all of us as "thoughts" and "intents", that a false prophet can be a misleading "thought" and that the beast can be the "intent" of the heart to interpret and follow the false prophet/thought as truth.

For me, the whole purification process is "the renewing of the mind", the changing "OF" the way we think, which if you look up the original meaning of the word "repent", it has the meaning "to think differently".

As for the 1000 years, I believe it is a representation of the fullness of life, since Adam lived less than 1000 years, I understand this through the words "we all fall short of the glory of God", just as Adam fell short of 1000 years, so do all of us. Which can be understood through "a thousand years is like a day" with "the day" being the fullness of Christ.

But again, I will only say that this is what I have come to understand and it is just my opinion, you can accept it, consider it or reject it.

I hope to read   all the replies  better  when I can
I went to bed thinking about all this ...
  I recall a simplicity in Christ


the two laws  that come in the Spirit of truth are to LOVE God first , everything else would just fall into place
  many just never knew   unconditional LOVE  here at all  ,  and they did abide in hate which  is DEATH

and because they never knew Gods love they did not love anyone , nor themselves , just things .


I believe when they see Jesus for the first time and know  and understand that love they will  experience the lake of fire

being a pure love that burns away the  filth of all the fleshly desires

I know that JESUS COME to baptize with FIRE  and set the World on fire

the second  visit  is with the breath of His coming again taking all the vile out of the way

I believe LOVE never fails  and LOVE IS LIFE     no more death /HATE

Those that hate dwell  IN DEATH    if you murder in your heart you do not love God at all because you never saw Him and have seen your neighbours , if you hate  in your heart you hate yourself  and cannot love anything but possessions/things of power over others  evil things gained by deceit   and have  deceived your own heart . 

we are born again to love and be loved  and to know love /God

to simple ?



we know that hate is made to prove LOVE /GOD IS TRUE

QuoteAs for the 1000 years, I believe it is a representation of the fullness of life, since Adam lived less than 1000 years, I understand this through the words "we all fall short of the glory of God", just as Adam fell short of 1000 years, so do all of us. Which can be understood through "a thousand years is like a day" with "the day" being the fullness of Christ.

Good point. 

Isaiah 65:20
Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

There are so many ways of looking at these things.
Thank you.

 wow , I love this guys ALL THE IMPUT!!! 

  WOW 
got a lot out of this

   the flesh counts for nothing   , always  ready to die  ?
what if the soul  and the spirit  are the only  parts that have been divided  and matter to GOD ?  and are judged only   
both  matter to God and belong to HIM 

The verse in  Hebrews 4  comes to mind  dividing the soul and Spirit      two parts of death /hate to be made alive  in Christ
  and rest


11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow.

It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God?s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.?
   the first death is the soul in a man  , his life  and its purpose
  and  the second death is the spirit that must be joined in the LORDS HOLY SPIRIT AS ONE SPIRIT. ONE GOD  ONE Faith  ?

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

the know GOD is to LOVE HIM ..... They never knew the Love of God but were made for the purpose to prove GOD  IS TRUE  FOREVER

Exposing the  evil/hate by FIRE  ''  THAT LAW of love/ GOD ''  , that makes sin   a truth   that reality .
knees will bow and tongues will confess  LORD I never knew you  suffering is a big part of learning   truth

Quote from: rosered on November 26, 2020, 05:49:20 PM


I hope to read   all the replies  better  when I can
I went to bed thinking about all this ...
  I recall a simplicity in Christ


the two laws  that come in the Spirit of truth are to LOVE God first , everything else would just fall into place
  many just never knew   unconditional LOVE  here at all  ,  and they did abide in hate which  is DEATH

and because they never knew Gods love they did not love anyone , nor themselves , just things .


I believe when they see Jesus for the first time and know  and understand that love they will  experience the lake of fire

being a pure love that burns away the  filth of all the fleshly desires

I know that JESUS COME to baptize with FIRE  and set the World on fire

the second  visit  is with the breath of His coming again taking all the vile out of the way

I believe LOVE never fails  and LOVE IS LIFE     no more death /HATE

Those that hate dwell  IN DEATH    if you murder in your heart you do not love God at all because you never saw Him and have seen your neighbours , if you hate  in your heart you hate yourself  and cannot love anything but possessions/things of power over others  evil things gained by deceit   and have  deceived your own heart . 

we are born again to love and be loved  and to know love /God

to simple ?



we know that hate is made to prove LOVE /GOD IS TRUE

Rose, I hope I haven't kept you up with all this talk!

I am at the stage now in my walk (and have been for many years) when I can tolerate ANY idea and consider and look into it.  My will is God's because He knows better than me lol, and so I've learned to leave everything in His hands and as clay not to challenge the potter and I have peace of mind...Even when considering views that I really do not like.

Actually reincarnation is one of these views...I don't WANT it to be true, but I am going to consider it (for now) until I know for sure it's not.

As it stands I really don't think reincarnation is true at all.
I've never seen anything in scripture to indicate that.
In the same way I've never seen anything in scripture to show pillars that hold up the earth etc.  Some things are to not be taken literally and need discretion.
'He hangs the earth on nothing'.
I just go with what the Scriptures say - it just takes a while to comb through what they truly say.

Thank you for all your comments.  I totally agree with what you say.
Rose...To me God being all in all, is all of us humans 'loving each other as ourselves'...  Love all in all.
You hit the nail in the head with what you said.
No fear...ever.  Just love.

Quotewow , I love this guys ALL THE IMPUT!!!

  WOW
got a lot out of this 

Aren't these replys amazing?

Quotethe flesh counts for nothing   , always  ready to die  ?
what if the soul  and the spirit  are the only  parts that have been divided  and matter to GOD ?  and are judged only   
both  matter to God and belong to HIM 

I get what you are saying but have you considered also that the sword separates marrow and sinew (fleshly things)?

11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow

Quotethe first death is the soul in a man  , his life  and its purpose

I would agree with this.
The 'ego' perhaps? (Wanting our 'own' (self destructive) ways.  (Our ways are not His ways). 

Quoteand  the second death is the spirit that must be joined in the LORDS HOLY SPIRIT AS ONE SPIRIT. ONE GOD  ONE Faith  ?

I'm going to have to meditate (focus) on this and get back to you. That's pretty deep.

 
  the 1000  year reign  of Adam  to me is the 930 years  as a sign and the 70 years  we now have is the last of Adam
  an hour ?
the last Adam The Resurrection Body to be made Alive in , holding the dead for last

?44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being;? the last Adam a life-giving spirit.


46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.?


  if 1000 years is a day  in Gods sight we have an hour to come in to the truth

God shortened the days unless no one would be saved , they kill and hate and abide in death has increased
  lawlessness   , is hate  for God

Revelations , or revealing of Christ  is the DAY OF THE LORD or the last Adam  that is the life giving Spirit

all that is written in the last  hour  is the Day of the Lord to conquer  and subdue  TO  reconcile all things in Himself , the WORD 

  made flesh by making it alive IN HIMSELF  by the love and jealousy  for the FATHER 
By Him and for Him and though Him were all things made and nothing was not made without Him

HE will make alive though the Fire  of destroying everything that offends  the Word of truth by the Spirit of truth  that GOD is a consuming fire . 

Quote
  the 1000  year reign  of Adam  to me is the 930 years  as a sign and the 70 years  we now have is the last of Adam
  an hour ?
the last Adam The Resurrection Body to be made Alive in , holding the dead for last

The 70th week?
This is why I never rule out people who think this way. There is truth in such things.
Personally I believe there is both a physical representation and a spiritual and it's important to try to see both.

?44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being;? the last Adam a life-giving spirit.


46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.?

Quote  if 1000 years is a day  in Gods sight we have an hour to come in to the truth

The 'hour' or His judgement (7 years?). (Tribulation).

  yes , to me it is possible all things are possible with God



  I believe it is the dividing of the old earthly Adam from the  heavenly Adam in the RESSURECTED BODY


HE ALONE holds it all together  in Himself
  the divisions  Christ brought to the earth  during the baptism of death  is what is going to be  eliminated or ''cast off forever '' 
the perfection or completing  of   the resurrected body   ,  the end of all things 
the head was first Jesus Christ is the head and all authority  of the whole body  to be made whole entire  without a spot of blemish   as it all was going down and being formed  with all included   till the end . .

  HIS WORD is  going to return to the FATHER  TOTALLY in tact  by the HOLY SPIRIT activating it  to the very jot and tittle of it all   corporately   as ONE WHOLE fulfilling ..  Christ is fulling   all the law

  has Christ been divided ? no ,  never be , but died for all  and the sins for all , that  the divisions Christ brought by His baptism of Holy Spirit & fire would  divide the  two laws   of knowledge of   sin =death and  the new law  of LOVE  =life   

    in Himself , being both the LORD of the dead and the living  inside of His body to be made alive in the  end times .

49 ?I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

a holy Spirit to teach all  though the fire of earth , our minds and hearts on fire , as it is in heaven   to me fire is the clarity   and that removes the  elements in the way of getting though   to  GOD OF heaven ,   and is God being the consuming fire  of  love .    who can stand in the fire ? Isaiah   29  the city of David    mount Zion
love conquers all

Hi dash, in respect to your reply in post 16, I did not say that the false prophet and the beast are our own mind, I merely pointed out that thoughts and intents can be these things "IN" a mind, not that they are the mind itself

blessings

Quote from: jugghead on November 26, 2020, 07:15:26 PM
Hi dash, in respect to your reply in post 16, I did not say that the false prophet and the beast are our own mind, I merely pointed out that thoughts and intents can be these things "IN" a mind, not that they are the mind itself

blessings

Thank you for ensuring you corrected me for that.
It makes sense to me now.
Apologies for not reading that accurately.

I'm just going to give some of my final thoughts and then leave this issue, as I'm satisfied there is no solid case for reincarnation scripturally and it's not a subject I wish to dwell upon right now. 
I have over 140+ topics I want to tackle and there are not enough hours in the day.
(Isn't it great that God gives us a 'job' even in these times when so many are out of work etc, God gives us the greatest jobs possible)...

The way I understand being 'perfected' is not living countless lifetimes to 'get it right' (reincarnation), but rather each person becoming the best version of themselves.
I do not have to live a lifetime as King or a slave. I believe we all get experiences of such things in our own lives.  I have been the server and the served (etc).
I do not have to live a lifetime as a warrior who fights and kills - Indeed I don't want to kill anyone.  (I wouldn't)... So why would some suggest I have to 'live such a life' to 'know' what it would be like? I don't have to live as a pirate - I wouldn't. I get their point...But (to me personally), I don't feel it is necessary. 
I see in my own life that the Lord gives me some things to do and other things He knows I will (or won't) do, so He doesn't give me those things to do or not because He knows that I would/wouldn't do them anyway.  Some things test people, to others the exact same things are not tests. 
For example: I could be tested forever on gambling because I'm not a gambler. I have no desire to gamble so that test will go right by me.
I think our 'time is up' so to speak when we 'overcome' our personal challenges. (In part at least).
As for living as animals to 'truly understand them', I think that would really be a 'drop' in consciousness/intelligence and I'm not sure that could teach a person anything? In the same way being a blade of grass might not 'refine' a person very much. (I may be wrong).

Furthermore; I could have a billion attempts at living Elvis' life for him but I will never be Elvis. - He is unique as are we all.
If we all lived the 'exact same' lives and we were all made to BE Elvis so we really understood him would we not just be the same people (not unique individuals)? - And then where does love and forgiveness etc come into play? And harmony and reconciliation and cooperation etc?

To me, being perfected is becoming the best version of 'ourselves'. 
I.E. The drug user quits the habit, the liar tells the truth, the angry man overcomes his temper and so on. 
They are still themselves - just a better version (a new man) (if anyone is 'in' Christ (spiritual man) he's a new creation) etc. They have 'overcome' (sins/shortcomings).

So (to me), being reborn over and over again into different lives and learning all over again from infancy onwards and doing the whole 'ga ga' thing again makes no sense. 
I don't believe I have to live Elvis' entire life to 'understand' him or to 'love' him.  (Actually I'm rather partial to a bit of Elvis as it is!), but rather it is about respecting the uniqueness of people and loving them for who they are, but their 'uniqueness' eventually being perfected for the good of all.  (God/Love all in all). Harmony.  This will of course mean I will one day have to love Lady Gaga equally but musically that ain't gonna happen and that is where uniqueness (and taste) comes in!!!.  :rolllol:  Love the sinner hate the sin, and by goodness some music is a sin!

Do we need to experience endless lives and even live each other's lives to reach 'harmony'? - I don't believe so.  - We just have to learn 'the way' (of peace) and to forgive and so on and accept each other...Faults and all (before perfection).
As Jabcat said, look to the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

I will shut up now.
Thank you.

I have also come to remember thanks to the many comments on here that overcomers will not be harmed by the second death (as they have already overcome), having accepted God's 'correction' in this life. (They became 'better' not 'bitter'!) ('evil men wax worse and worse')

Worth remembering also is that: 'our God is a consuming fire' (of Love), and also too that God is LIFE.
'I am the way, truth and LIFE'.
'In Him was LIFE'

So this LIFE is 'correction'/fire (in HIM/LIFE we LIVE and move and have our BE-ING) and if we 'overcome' here the 2nd death (further purification) will not be necessary.

IF we don't get it right in the 'increments' (of fire) (learn from mistakes etc) in this life and 'go the right way (Christ), then (i believe) 'get flung in the deep end' (so to speak) of the (LAKE) of fire which will engulf us and finding ourselves in 'deep water' so to speak we will have to 'learn how to swim' and sooner the better!  -  This is just my own opinion.

  I do believe all of us as   in Adam  experience God differently  and in Christ  it will be  completely
  I thought of you  when I read this  scripture , you made me think , because all do serve God in that sense  of evil having its place  and use , but when we become  friends  , well we have a relationship  that grows in truth and grace .

  you have not chosen me , but I have chosen you

John 15 No Greater Love
?15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing.

But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you.


16You did not choose Me, but I chose you.


And I appointed you to go and bear fruit? fruit that will remain? so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.


17This is My command to you: Love one another.?

  Thanks bro and Jugg and Ross and James for sharing in this thread 
  I love to see the many ways  we consider the Lord and one another   with a purpose .

 

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 08:51:05 PM
I'm just going to give some of my final thoughts and then leave this issue, as I'm satisfied there is no solid case for reincarnation scripturally and it's not a subject I wish to dwell upon right now. 
I have over 140+ topics I want to tackle and there are not enough hours in the day.
(Isn't it great that God gives us a 'job' even in these times when so many are out of work etc, God gives us the greatest jobs possible)...

QuoteYes it is and brother i LOVE  when the  Holy Spirit teaches us by  reproving all things   . Many times  some have spoken though the Same Spirit of truth and has helped me grow in truth and grace   over the years .

I have noticed though nothing comes easy , the blessing is in the quickening  when you can know that life force   settling something within you

The way I understand being 'perfected' is not living countless lifetimes to 'get it right' (reincarnation), but rather each person becoming the best version of themselves.
I do not have to live a lifetime as King or a slave. I believe we all get experiences of such things in our own lives.  I have been the server and the served (etc).
I do not have to live a lifetime as a warrior who fights and kills - Indeed I don't want to kill anyone.  (I wouldn't)... So why would some suggest I have to 'live such a life' to 'know' what it would be like? I don't have to live as a pirate - I wouldn't. I get their point...But (to me personally), I don't feel it is necessary. 
I see in my own life that the Lord gives me some things to do and other things He knows I will (or won't) do, so He doesn't give me those things to do or not because He knows that I would/wouldn't do them anyway.  Some things test people, to others the exact same things are not tests. 
For example: I could be tested forever on gambling because I'm not a gambler. I have no desire to gamble so that test will go right by me.
I think our 'time is up' so to speak when we 'overcome' our personal challenges. (In part at least).

QuoteThis reminded me of the scriptures  in Isaiah the prophet  , Here I am Lord send me ........., I just remember how blessed and when it did quicken like a flash of Light  understanding come  when the scripture

Paul said and taught us in 1Cor 1  26 Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth.

27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast in His presence.

30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: ?Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.?    This gave me hope beyond  sitting in a church house  for years on end , Once you begin to read it for yourself and let the Spirit of truth interpret  and teach you , this bond becomes your  anchor 

As for living as animals to 'truly understand them', I think that would really be a 'drop' in consciousness/intelligence and I'm not sure that could teach a person anything? In the same way being a blade of grass might not 'refine' a person very much. (I may be wrong).


Furthermore; I could have a billion attempts at living Elvis' life for him but I will never be Elvis. - He is unique as are we all.
If we all lived the 'exact same' lives and we were all made to BE Elvis so we really understood him would we not just be the same people (not unique individuals)? - And then where does love and forgiveness etc come into play? And harmony and reconciliation and cooperation etc?

To me, being perfected is becoming the best version of 'ourselves'. 
I.E. The drug user quits the habit, the liar tells the truth, the angry man overcomes his temper and so on. 
They are still themselves - just a better version (a new man) (if anyone is 'in' Christ (spiritual man) he's a new creation) etc. They have 'overcome' (sins/shortcomings).

QuoteI believe we learn though the connection that everything is  in Christ and when we begin to look at it that way many blessings comes and changes our ways of thinking of things   , I recall  when I was a baby in Christ   and was looking for all these signs  , of  people walking on water   like Peter did and I was very literal  and spiritually discerned  badly .. my own disappointments of thinking GOD where are you in all of this mess??????????   my faith was worthless and  so was my ability to understand anything  , But the Spirit put a hunger and thirst in me to learn of HIM   and when I finally saw that walking on water was  rising above the great waves of shame  and many voices from below after reading the Psalms and David's own dealings with God , it come to me we have to not be swept away in the dragons flood of lies and torment , to walk in the voices from above   and hear the LORDS VOICE  though every noise , I could rejoice in the LORD and knew it was the Holy Spiit teaching me   finally  ....   

So (to me), being reborn over and over again into different lives and learning all over again from infancy onwards and doing the whole 'ga ga' thing again makes no sense. 
I don't believe I have to live Elvis' entire life to 'understand' him or to 'love' him.  (Actually I'm rather partial to a bit of Elvis as it is!), but rather it is about respecting the uniqueness of people and loving them for who they are, but their 'uniqueness' eventually being perfected for the good of all.  (God/Love all in all). Harmony.  This will of course mean I will one day have to love Lady Gaga equally but musically that ain't gonna happen and that is where uniqueness (and taste) comes in!!!.  :rolllol:  Love the sinner hate the sin, and by goodness some music is a sin!

QuoteI always look for the songs meaning and some voices are  without understanding and how we relate to them , I just knew  when I stumbled across   a scripture  and was reading about  Noah and Job and Daniel  being the only ones that Gods grace  were remarkable   to write about them specifically and wondered why , that was my new quest to search it out !   Ekek 14 14then even if these three men? Noah, Daniel, and Job? were in it, their righteousness could deliver only themselves, declares the Lord GOD.   I believe it was because they did pray for all  their enemies  and warn them of the things to come and had the UR  kind of thinking , most only love and relate to their own kind and fail to love everyone where they are , but these  that were mistreated badly in their time were above  the  mentality of eye for an eye  type thinking of the old testament law  and before their time in that sense of Gods grace in them working 

Do we need to experience endless lives and even live each other's lives to reach 'harmony'? - I don't believe so.  - We just have to learn 'the way' (of peace) and to forgive and so on and accept each other...Faults and all (before perfection).
As Jabcat said, look to the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

I will shut up now.
Thank you.

QuoteAmen ! speak the truth in love  and let it be he only reason because you do Love God first and the second is like it love one another as you do yourself , but we have to learn to love ourselves in the sense of  wanting the LORD TO Rule and reign in our hearts and not go into the way of the world and all its temptations , trusting GOD  is easy to say and hard to do when you are caught up into the  fray . I do not know how to do quotes this is a close as  I can do lol  ha ha ...  :dsunny: Thanks for the thoughts and sharing as you do brother , everyone here blesses me in some way or another and  I thank God for you all and this place  to come and speak of the things of God  , there are not to many of these hiding places  left open for the Fathers business   these days

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 04:40:23 PM


1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').

the literal Greek says 'death the second,....

Revelation 20:14 ►
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong's   Greek   English   Morphology
2532 [e]   Καὶ
kai   And   Conj
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   θάνατος
thanatos   Death   N-NMS
2532 [e]   καὶ
kai   and   Conj
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
86 [e]   ᾅδης
hadēs   Hades   N-NMS
906 [e]   ἐβλήθησαν
eblēthēsan   were cast   V-AIP-3P
1519 [e]   εἰς
eis   into   Prep
3588 [e]   τὴν
tēn   the   Art-AFS
3041 [e]   λίμνην
limnēn   lake   N-AFS
3588 [e]   τοῦ
tou   -   Art-GNS
4442 [e]   πυρός.
pyros   of fire.   N-GNS
3778 [e]   οὗτος
houtos   This   DPro-NMS
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   the   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   θάνατος
thanatos   death   N-NMS
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
1208 [e]   δεύτερός
deuteros   second   Adj-NMS
1510 [e]   ἐστιν,
estin   is   V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]   ἡ
hē   the   Art-NFS
3041 [e]   λίμνη
limnē   lake   N-NFS
3588 [e]   τοῦ
tou   of   Art-GNS
4442 [e]   πυρός.
pyros   fire.   N-GNS


i.e. the lake of fire is death the 2nd but death will be destroyed, says Paul...so the lake of Fire will be done away with and those in it will be Redeemed through Christ.

Quote from: darryl on November 28, 2020, 01:33:31 PM

Quote from: dash on November 26, 2020, 04:40:23 PM


1
The word for 'second' death (in relation to the lake of fire) seems to indicate not ONLY a 'second' death but a 'FOLLOWING'/'NEXT' death. (Or it 'can' be interpreted that way).
So, for example; a man is appointed to die once, THEN face the judgement (lake of fire/2nd death) (if he has not entered into 'life').

the literal Greek says 'death the second,....

Revelation 20:14 ►
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong's   Greek   English   Morphology
2532 [e]   Καὶ
kai   And   Conj
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   θάνατος
thanatos   Death   N-NMS
2532 [e]   καὶ
kai   and   Conj
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
86 [e]   ᾅδης
hadēs   Hades   N-NMS
906 [e]   ἐβλήθησαν
eblēthēsan   were cast   V-AIP-3P
1519 [e]   εἰς
eis   into   Prep
3588 [e]   τὴν
tēn   the   Art-AFS
3041 [e]   λίμνην
limnēn   lake   N-AFS
3588 [e]   τοῦ
tou   -   Art-GNS
4442 [e]   πυρός.
pyros   of fire.   N-GNS
3778 [e]   οὗτος
houtos   This   DPro-NMS
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   the   Art-NMS
2288 [e]   θάνατος
thanatos   death   N-NMS
3588 [e]   ὁ
ho   -   Art-NMS
1208 [e]   δεύτερός
deuteros   second   Adj-NMS
1510 [e]   ἐστιν,
estin   is   V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]   ἡ
hē   the   Art-NFS
3041 [e]   λίμνη
limnē   lake   N-NFS
3588 [e]   τοῦ
tou   of   Art-GNS
4442 [e]   πυρός.
pyros   fire.   N-GNS


i.e. the lake of fire is death the 2nd but death will be destroyed, says Paul...so the lake of Fire will be done away with and those in it will be Redeemed through Christ.

Hi bro I appreciate that.
Despite using concordances etc I am forever finding new things about the original meanings/languages etc in the context of their usage/era and so on... And so it could be interpreted as 'death the next' (instead of second) accordingly.  But anyway... Despite that. 

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

If the second death is death, how would you answer:- 'Death being thrown into death?'
Would you see that as 'death dying' or death being 'done away with'?
Because we know that death is the 'last' enemy and so it would make sense that death would be 'last' to 'die' (so to speak), for death to be 'swallowed up by life'.

Thank you  :gimmefive:

:hiya: Hi!

Hebrews 9:27 says ?it?s given to man to die once? so I think we can assume another death is of the carnal character called ?the flesh?.

First mention of lake of fire of course is at the return of the Lord (2Thess.1:7-8; 2Pet.3:10) which the huge beast and the false prophet institutions are cast into (swallowed by) and those who ?are alive and remain? rise through (they being ?sheltered from scorching heat?).
    The other mention is at the final defeat of Satan&co in Rev.20, just before the resurrection of all not yet saved and the beginning of ?aionian kolasis?.
     Jude 7 says our example of ?everlasting? (oye!) hellfire ..is an event! Not a place.
    The ancient Fall Holy Days (I strongly believe) are the outline showing the millennium to be literally 1000yrs (represented by 10 days between trumpets and DOA, and said DOA lasting 500yrs, represented by ?5 days? between DOA and Tabernacles when ?God will now tabernacle/dwell with mankind upon Earth made anew? (regenesis!) ?The bear will graze with the cow, the lion will eat straw like the ox? Is.11:7.
- Lev.23

QuoteI do believe all of us as   in Adam  experience God differently  and in Christ  it will be  completely

Yes Rose, definitely.

Quote
16You did not choose Me, but I chose you.

Yes! 
And I cannot see how this could be any other way when we consider that: 'God is love'. 
'We love because He (love) first loved us'.
Love (God) was first!
So although a person can feel 'love' in their heart and 'come to God' and 'choose this day whom they will follow', and 'forsake sin' and all that...
...That very 'love' working in them is God!

Quote17This is My command to you: Love one another.?

And the whole law to do unto others as we would have done to us.  The 'way' indeed!  :HeartThrob:

QuoteYes it is and brother i LOVE  when the  Holy Spirit teaches us by  reproving all things 

Yes!  Truth is truth  :banana:

Quote
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly and despised things of the world, and the things that are not, to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast in His presence.

Just brilliant!

QuoteI believe we learn though the connection that everything is  in Christ and when we begin to look at it that way many blessings comes and changes our ways of thinking of things   , I recall  when I was a baby in Christ   and was looking for all these signs  , of  people walking on water   like Peter did and I was very literal  and spiritually discerned  badly .. my own disappointments of thinking GOD where are you in all of this mess??????????   my faith was worthless and  so was my ability to understand anything  , But the Spirit put a hunger and thirst in me to learn of HIM   and when I finally saw that walking on water was  rising above the great waves of shame  and many voices from below after reading the Psalms and David's own dealings with God , it come to me we have to not be swept away in the dragons flood of lies and torment , to walk in the voices from above   and hear the LORDS VOICE  though every noise , I could rejoice in the LORD and knew it was the Holy Spiit teaching me   finally  ....   

It's amazing how we are taught and each gets what they need at the time they need it.


So (to me), being reborn over and over again into different lives and learning all over again from infancy onwards and doing the whole 'ga ga' thing again makes no sense. 
I don't believe I have to live Elvis' entire life to 'understand' him or to 'love' him.  (Actually I'm rather partial to a bit of Elvis as it is!), but rather it is about respecting the uniqueness of people and loving them for who they are, but their 'uniqueness' eventually being perfected for the good of all.  (God/Love all in all). Harmony.  This will of course mean I will one day have to love Lady Gaga equally but musically that ain't gonna happen and that is where uniqueness (and taste) comes in!!!.  :rolllol:  Love the sinner hate the sin, and by goodness some music is a sin!

QuoteI believe it was because they did pray for all  their enemies  and warn them of the things to come and had the UR  kind of thinking , most only love and relate to their own kind and fail to love everyone where they are , but these  that were mistreated badly in their time were above  the  mentality of eye for an eye  type thinking of the old testament law  and before their time in that sense of Gods grace in them working

That's so well said.  'God delights in mercy' and it really pleases Him when we are merciful to others.

QuoteAmen ! speak the truth in love  and let it be he only reason because you do Love God first and the second is like it love one another as you do yourself , but we have to learn to love ourselves in the sense of  wanting the LORD TO Rule and reign in our hearts and not go into the way of the world and all its temptations , trusting GOD  is easy to say and hard to do when you are caught up into the  fray . I do not know how to do quotes this is a close as  I can do lol  ha ha ...  :dsunny: Thanks for the thoughts and sharing as you do brother , everyone here blesses me in some

I know it used to freak some people out years ago when it said to love God even more than your parents etc!
What they forgot is that God is love and so putting God first is putting love first.
...I guess it's getting our priorities right, because as humans we are not perfect and must keep our feet on firm ground, on the rock.
Thanks again sis.

Quote from: marie glen on November 30, 2020, 01:15:13 AM
:hiya: Hi!

Hebrews 9:27 says ?it?s given to man to die once? so I think we can assume another death is of the carnal character called ?the flesh?.

First mention of lake of fire of course is at the return of the Lord (2Thess.1:7-8; 2Pet.3:10) which the huge beast and the false prophet institutions are cast into (swallowed by) and those who ?are alive and remain? rise through (they being ?sheltered from scorching heat?).
    The other mention is at the final defeat of Satan&co in Rev.20, just before the resurrection of all not yet saved and the beginning of ?aionian kolasis?.
     Jude 7 says our example of ?everlasting? (oye!) hellfire ..is an event! Not a place.
    The ancient Fall Holy Days (I strongly believe) are the outline showing the millennium to be literally 1000yrs (represented by 10 days between trumpets and DOA, and said DOA lasting 500yrs, represented by ?5 days? between DOA and Tabernacles when ?God will now tabernacle/dwell with mankind upon Earth made anew? (regenesis!) ?The bear will graze with the cow, the lion will eat straw like the ox? Is.11:7.
- Lev.23

Hi Marie  :HeartThrob:

I believe the thousand years are literal also, and not far off.
I could see the change in consciousness coming now for many years and I believe current events are a 'power grab', (Satan trying to hold onto his kingdom). 
Dec 21st is when the King of Righteousness (Jupiter) meets Saturn (used a lot in satanism (like the nike (rings of saturn) signs or google symbols etc etc).  This meeting is called a conjunction, however in this case it is a super conjunction, being that it is the two biggest planets (and because the events of Sept 2017 (woman clothed with the sun) etc (altogether) (virgo giving birth to Jupiter) happens only once (every?) 7000 years. 
It's all happening in 2020 the year of 20/20 vision it seems!

Posted by Dash

"I believe the thousand years are literal also, and not far off.
I could see the change in consciousness coming now for many years and I believe current events are a 'power grab', (Satan trying to hold onto his kingdom).
Dec 21st is when the King of Righteousness (Jupiter) meets Saturn (used a lot in satanism (like the nike (rings of saturn) signs or google symbols etc etc).  This meeting is called a conjunction, however in this case it is a super conjunction, being that it is the two biggest planets (and because the events of Sept 2017 (woman clothed with the sun) etc (altogether) (virgo giving birth to Jupiter) happens only once (every?) 7000 years.
It's all happening in 2020 the year of 20/20 vision it seems!"

Could you clarify this a little more for me. How often does Jupiter meet Saturn? And could you explain what happened sept 2017 a little more, and it's significance to how it relates to Jupiter meeting Saturn? I think this is an important key to the times we find ourselves in, and would just like to understand more - if you can think of any way to add to what you said...

Thanks,

Andrew

Quote from: Andrew on November 30, 2020, 08:51:18 PM
Posted by Dash

"I believe the thousand years are literal also, and not far off.
I could see the change in consciousness coming now for many years and I believe current events are a 'power grab', (Satan trying to hold onto his kingdom).
Dec 21st is when the King of Righteousness (Jupiter) meets Saturn (used a lot in satanism (like the nike (rings of saturn) signs or google symbols etc etc).  This meeting is called a conjunction, however in this case it is a super conjunction, being that it is the two biggest planets (and because the events of Sept 2017 (woman clothed with the sun) etc (altogether) (virgo giving birth to Jupiter) happens only once (every?) 7000 years.
It's all happening in 2020 the year of 20/20 vision it seems!"

Could you clarify this a little more for me. How often does Jupiter meet Saturn? And could you explain what happened sept 2017 a little more, and it's significance to how it relates to Jupiter meeting Saturn? I think this is an important key to the times we find ourselves in, and would just like to understand more - if you can think of any way to add to what you said...

Thanks,

Andrew

Rev 12, the virgin (virgo) is 'about' to be bringing forth a Son (Jupiter) to govern the nations with an iron rod.  This sign was seen in 23rd Sept 2017.
The exact date she gives birth, many expect will be 21st Dec 2020, when Jupiter and Saturn will be (apparently) within 0.1 degrees of each other.
Then we know that the 'dragon pursues' the woman (the 'woman' being those who 'brought forth' the 'Son').
Apparently this is the closest conjunction since 1623 and won't occur again until March 15th 2080.
However, taking all events into account as a whole, (including the virigin/dragon/Saturn (Christs stolen crown)/Jupiter etc): (the entire event we are seeing unfold) 'apparently' occurs only once every 7000 years (or once for ever( to some who believe the earth is not as old as mainstream (cough) 'science' tells them)).

To self-study one can check out various astrology programs on computer or search out all I've said.
The Indians have a lot of interesting things to say in this old video where they predicted these (end/new beginning) times having been astrologers (like Magi).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBvqDDG5WQQ

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge
Without speech or language,
without a sound to be heard
their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world

There will be many many people without hope in the coming years and indeed many have given up hope already.  We are truly blessed to have this book and share the hope we have with others.  At the very least we know Who wins in the end and if we study we will be better prepared for the 'next woe'...

Thanks Dash, that helped clear things up a bit.

I have not read all the debates here, sorry, but i can reassure tyou that Reincarnation does not exist and nor is it needed.

If you look upon scripture and what Jesus proves in This world, then it is that the very "property" of death isn't a natural element in existence but a consequence of sin. (to what extent there's no reason to ask as you can summarise that the whole universe has been corrupted by death - so even if you look in how adapted nature seems to be with death and how essential it seems in certain parts, this can only be due to the infinite complexity of creation and how it, as a living organism, has tried to fight this disease off by adapting to it.)

Therefore if Death isn't a natural property of creation nor has it ever been planned by God, then reincarnation cannot exist because no creature ever meet's it's end.

If creation was never meant to experience an end there's no need for reincarnation.

Plus reincarnation is an enemy of infinity in so many ways you cannot imagine. If things ought to repeat endlessly in an uroboric - like cycle then that dispels the infiniteness of variety through time and outside of time.

It is best to leave this subject to satan where it comes from.

 :goodpost:

Quote from: dash on November 30, 2020, 11:04:08 PM

Quote from: Andrew on November 30, 2020, 08:51:18 PM
Posted by Dash

"I believe the thousand years are literal also, and not far off.
I could see the change in consciousness coming now for many years and I believe current events are a 'power grab', (Satan trying to hold onto his kingdom).
Dec 21st is when the King of Righteousness (Jupiter) meets Saturn (used a lot in satanism (like the nike (rings of saturn) signs or google symbols etc etc).  This meeting is called a conjunction, however in this case it is a super conjunction, being that it is the two biggest planets (and because the events of Sept 2017 (woman clothed with the sun) etc (altogether) (virgo giving birth to Jupiter) happens only once (every?) 7000 years.
It's all happening in 2020 the year of 20/20 vision it seems!"

Could you clarify this a little more for me. How often does Jupiter meet Saturn? And could you explain what happened sept 2017 a little more, and it's significance to how it relates to Jupiter meeting Saturn? I think this is an important key to the times we find ourselves in, and would just like to understand more - if you can think of any way to add to what you said...

Thanks,

Andrew

Rev 12, the virgin (virgo) is 'about' to be bringing forth a Son (Jupiter) to govern the nations with an iron rod.  This sign was seen in 23rd Sept 2017.
The exact date she gives birth, many expect will be 21st Dec 2020, when Jupiter and Saturn will be (apparently) within 0.1 degrees of each other.
Then we know that the 'dragon pursues' the woman (the 'woman' being those who 'brought forth' the 'Son').
Apparently this is the closest conjunction since 1623 and won't occur again until March 15th 2080.
However, taking all events into account as a whole, (including the virigin/dragon/Saturn (Christs stolen crown)/Jupiter etc): (the entire event we are seeing unfold) 'apparently' occurs only once every 7000 years (or once for ever( to some who believe the earth is not as old as mainstream (cough) 'science' tells them)).

To self-study one can check out various astrology programs on computer or search out all I've said.
The Indians have a lot of interesting things to say in this old video where they predicted these (end/new beginning) times having been astrologers (like Magi).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBvqDDG5WQQ

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge
Without speech or language,
without a sound to be heard
their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world

There will be many many people without hope in the coming years and indeed many have given up hope already.  We are truly blessed to have this book and share the hope we have with others.  At the very least we know Who wins in the end and if we study we will be better prepared for the 'next woe'...

Also why are you presuming that the Bible of all the books, supports such an evil practice as Astrology, when it is clearly condemned in many areas?

i can never understand you people, who use the Holy Book, to corrupt the minds of believers with confusion and misleading.

Nice trick that, to use scriptures out of the context of the biblical meaning, to presume that it somehow, indirectly, refers to elements of astrology and that the virgin means to refer to the constellation of Virgo and the son means Jupiter!!!

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of His hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge
Without speech or language,
without a sound to be heard
their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world

Again scripture taken out of the context of biblical meaning! This does not represent a hint towards Astrology it was never meant to be interpreted this way! The Heavens declare the Glory of God - The vastness of space, the intricate nature of the clouds, the day and night cycle. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge, the beauty of the day-time sky the nature of the Sun and how wonderful it is a natural source of light and warmth, and at night the myriad of stars and all the other worlds that can be around each of them, and the visible worlds in our system alone - the way the position of the stars orbiting around the center of the galaxy, when viewed from different regions of the solar system hint at the location of the Earth in the solar system. This genius way to help people predict when certain seasons are coming due to earth's position around the sun.
It's beauty tells stories without end!.

So many other knowledge is revealed by the heavens other than astrology! In fact the mere fact that it is associated with the pagan and evil Gods of ancient societies is evident enough.

This is pure evil and ignorance and of the realm of darkness.

There's NO logically sound scripture that when taken in it's full context supports astrology!
Funny how astrology and reincarnation go hand in hand. It is magic and mysticism.

Astrology is a form of Divination which is not something God intended for any of His creatures to practice.

Despite this not ONE element of Astrology brings conclusive facts. First of all the Constellations which the mystics have drawn on the night sky (that's right it is a drawing of man) are not in their shape if you look from space. When you go to one of either of the stars of any constellation, you'll see immediately how they are not in the same position as put from earth.

Also Astrology fails at predicting so many stuff accurately that it is turned absolutely pathetic and ridiculous.
So many books and articles and different calculations and even different horoscopes are created every day in order to desperately try to compensate for the inconsistencies, it takes only a blind man not to see the broken tapestry this practice of darkness actually is.

The Prophets NEVER adhered to astrology to receive revelation! And to presume The Son (Yahshuah our Lord is somehow linked with Jupiter a head pagan god - who if you know anything about said entity is that HE ATE HIS CHILDREN ALIVE whilst they were crying in despair - is an abomination)

The truth is simple and easy to digest, not full of calculations and maps and rituals, and meanings and side meanings to define those meanings and so on.
When you have Yahshuah you don't need magic (which essentially this is what it is) Praying to the stars for revelation. Plain and simple.

Quote from: Shadrak-Daniel on December 13, 2020, 07:40:26 PM
I have not read all the debates here, sorry, but i can reassure tyou that Reincarnation does not exist and nor is it needed.

If you look upon scripture and what Jesus proves in This world, then it is that the very "property" of death isn't a natural element in existence but a consequence of sin. (to what extent there's no reason to ask as you can summarise that the whole universe has been corrupted by death - so even if you look in how adapted nature seems to be with death and how essential it seems in certain parts, this can only be due to the infinite complexity of creation and how it, as a living organism, has tried to fight this disease off by adapting to it.)

Therefore if Death isn't a natural property of creation nor has it ever been planned by God, then reincarnation cannot exist because no creature ever meet's it's end.

If creation was never meant to experience an end there's no need for reincarnation.

Plus reincarnation is an enemy of infinity in so many ways you cannot imagine. If things ought to repeat endlessly in an uroboric - like cycle then that dispels the infiniteness of variety through time and outside of time.

It is best to leave this subject to satan where it comes from.

Also i forgot to add, that reincarnation is basically an ignorant way to try to satisfy our innate need to exist forever anyway!

Which said need essentially proves that we were never meant to experience an end and therefore nullifies this very subject...  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Shadrak-Daniel on December 16, 2020, 11:21:43 PM

Quote from: Shadrak-Daniel on December 13, 2020, 07:40:26 PM
I have not read all the debates here, sorry, but i can reassure tyou that Reincarnation does not exist and nor is it needed.

If you look upon scripture and what Jesus proves in This world, then it is that the very "property" of death isn't a natural element in existence but a consequence of sin. (to what extent there's no reason to ask as you can summarise that the whole universe has been corrupted by death - so even if you look in how adapted nature seems to be with death and how essential it seems in certain parts, this can only be due to the infinite complexity of creation and how it, as a living organism, has tried to fight this disease off by adapting to it.)

Therefore if Death isn't a natural property of creation nor has it ever been planned by God, then reincarnation cannot exist because no creature ever meet's it's end.

If creation was never meant to experience an end there's no need for reincarnation.

Plus reincarnation is an enemy of infinity in so many ways you cannot imagine. If things ought to repeat endlessly in an uroboric - like cycle then that dispels the infiniteness of variety through time and outside of time.

It is best to leave this subject to satan where it comes from.

Also i forgot to add, that reincarnation is basically an ignorant way to try to satisfy our innate need to exist forever anyway!

Which said need essentially proves that we were never meant to experience an end and therefore nullifies this very subject...  :HeartThrob:

Don't know if others see what I see, but in my opinion, I see:

"the becoming higher on the food chain" in evolution is a fleshly explanation of the spiritual aspect of "growing in wisdom"

And that:

"the constant repeating of oneself" in reincarnation is a fleshly explanation of the spiritual aspect of God having to "repeat Himself" again and again because man is stubborn (stiff necked)

my  :2c:

 :iagree: