R.H. Charles: bring eschatology into harmony w/ Xtian theology of God

[DavidFord]

_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford:  Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
Moreover, throughout the first century B.C., it is all but universally taught that only the righteous should have part in the resurrection.

As regards Sheol, a whole history is wrapped up in the uses of this term. Amid the various divergent conceptions of it in the Old Testament two features always persist. First, it is a place where social and not moral distinctions prevail ; and secondly, though an abode of misery and wretchedness, it is not like Gehenna-- a place of torment by fire. Now in the course of Apocalyptic literature these views are abandoned. From 160 B.C. onward Sheol is always conceived as a place of moral distinctions, and shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament.

What happens in the case of these two conceptions happens in the case of all technical eschatological terms.  There is constant movement, constant development; and the movement is, on the whole, towards a more spiritual conception of the future, in the course of which the lower survivals of the past are steadily dropped and higher conceptions set in their place. But, as is natural, throughout the entire development eschatological thought always stands on a lower spiritual plane than the theological conception of God.
....
We have referred above to the incorporation of a large body of Jewish ideas into the system of Christian thought and their subsequent transformation in the process.  But all such ideas did not undergo complete or even partial transformation, and we have to recognize the presence of Judaistic elements in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the Pauline Epistles, particularly the earlier, and the Apocalypse.

We have already seen that at all periods in the history of Israel there existed side by side in its religion incongruous and inconsistent elements. On the one side there was the doctrine of God ever advancing in depth and fullness ; on the other, eschatological and other survivals, which, however justifiable in other stages, were in unmistakable antagonism with the theistic beliefs of the time.  The eschatology of the nation is always the last part of its religion to experience the transforming power of new ideas and new facts. The eschatology of Israel was at times six hundred years behind its theology.

The recognition of these facts is of transcendent importance when we deal with New Testament eschatology. It prepares us for the occurrence to some extent of similar phenomena in the New Testament, and makes us ready to acknowledge their existence and give them their full historical value. The mere presence of such incongruities within the New Testament gives them no claim on the acceptance of the Church. Standing at variance as they do with the Christian fundamental doctrines of God and Christ, they must be condemned as survivals of an earlier and lower stage of religious belief.  In Christianity there is a survival of alien Judaistic elements, just as in the Hebrew religion there were for centuries survivals of Semitic heathenism.

Let me take two concrete instances. In the Hebrew religion Sheol, as a place of social and national distinctions, was a purely heathen conception. The first decisive stage in its moralization took place early in the second century B.C., when it was transformed into a place of moral distinctions. But this moralization was very inadequately carried out. According to the Judaistic conceptions, souls in Sheol were conceived as insusceptible of ethical progress. What they were on entering Sheol, that they continued to be till the final judgement. This conception is mechanical and unethical, if judged in the light of Christian theism. It precludes moral change in moral agents who are under the rule of a Being of perfect love and righteousness. The doctrine of eternal damnation, also, is a Judaistic survival of a still more grossly immoral character. This doctrine gained acceptance in Judaism when Monotheism had become to a great extent a lifeless dogma and Jewish particularism reigned supreme, and when a handful of Jews could not only comfortably believe that God was the God of the Jews only, and that of a very few, but also could imagine that part of their highest bliss in the next world would consist in witnessing the torments of their apostate brethren in Gehenna. Such a doctrine is antagonistic in the highest degree to the Sermon on the Mount, where a man is taught to love his enemies even as God does, and to labour unceasingly on their behalf, and to the Johannine teaching which finds its highest expression in the divinest utterance in all literature-- 'God is love.'

In connexion with this, the highest conception of God possible, the conception of Hades must make its final ethical advance and become a place where moral growth and moral declension are alike possible. This advance is really implied in 1 Peter iv.  Furthermore, the old Judaistic conception of Hell as a place of eternal damnation must be abandoned. Sin, according to the Johannine view, is the destroyer of life-- physical, spiritual, and ontological. Now to check the ultimate effects of this process of destruction and preserve the sinner in a state of ever-growing, ever-deepening, and yet ever-inevitable sin could in no sense be the work of the God so conceived.

The theology of the New Testament with its doctrine of the Fatherhood of God demands a transformation of this Jewish doctrine, and postulates our acceptance either of Conditional Immortality, or, as Origen of old taught, of Universalism. So far as the Christian Churches hold fast to the doctrine taken over from Judaism at the Christian era, their eschatology is nearly two thousand years behind their doctrine of God and Christ. We are all ready, I hope, in some fashion to recognize the possibility of a further probation. Some of us may only go so far as to hold probation as a purely speculative question and a matter of grace on the part of God.

But there are others amongst us who regard it in quite a different light, and who cannot simply relegate it to the region of God's uncovenanted mercies, seeing that it affects so deeply the character of God Himself. Nay, they would hold it a dishonour to the God they revere and serve even to admit the possibility that He should visit with a never-ending punishment the errors and shortcomings, nay more, the wilful sins of a few dim and mistaken years of earth, and limit to a handbreadth of time the opportunities and irremediable issues of a never-ending eternity. If this were so, the present world, with all its abuses and wrongfulness and injustice, would be infinitely more equitable than the world to come. Such then appears to be the conclusion that should be drawn from the Christian doctrine of the Fatherhood of God. By adopting this conclusion we bring once more eschatology into harmony with Christian theology.

[DavidFord]

from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqqVwzMkiPc&lc=z22hcltr4qjvwdyy404t1aokgpuda1cj4gko1iw5ufbybk0h00410.1545692938155601
Lex Treme 1 year ago
Correct Donna and you make a very good point that many don't consider. Why was Adam not warned about an eternal hellfire, or Abraham, Moses, even the Apostle Paul ,who was appointed to the nations by the risen glorified Christ doesn't mention it once! People don't look at scripture in context.

This is a long comment but I hope it may be helpful. The original Hebrew/Greek words that were used all had specific meanings, however over time the original meanings strayed, mainly through traditions so now have taken on different meanings. Hell for example is not a Greek word, (hence can't even be found in many bible translations) it's actually used in the word HEL-MET which is a head COVERING, not a place of eternal torment. The four words often lumped together are, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) grave/pit/unseen, then Tartarus (Greek) used for sinning angels, finally Gehenna (Greek) had the strongest link to fire because it was a literal place located just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehhinnom), it was a rubbish dump, you can visit the area today, although obviously it looks very different now.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.

I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.

(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO 'GROUPS' are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King's brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).

Verse 46 reveals (addressing the goat nations below)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (KJV)
"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." (REB)
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)

We find the judgement is based on who helped the King's brethren (Israel) I believe during the difficult tribulation period to come. Verse 46 reveals 'the goat nations' who don't help won't get entrance into the Kingdom, but will rather miss out. Rotherham emphasized bible is probably the clearest in it's choice of words, revealing no one goes away to eternal torment, but much rather to a specific time of age-abiding/during correction, to basically be set right.

The Book of Revelation does reveal that at a future time some will enter "the second death" Rev 2:11 , 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, but this is dealing with the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a different judgement to the one in Matthew 25, however 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us to a time beyond the Great White Throne Judgement, therefore we read that ultimately death will be abolished, i.e. hold no one, 1 Cor 15:26 and we find God's ultimate purpose is to be "ALL in all" 1 Cor 15:28! People think if God is going to save all, that means He does away with His Judgement's, but far from it, God is wise, His Judgement's do not work against His purpose, but much rather they are used as a MEANS for Him to accomplish a glorious end, i.e. to ultimately be "All in all" 1 Cor 15:28.

The doctrine of eternal torment takes sin THE LEAST seriously, as this doctrine demotes God to a little g "god" who can't ever resolve the problem and so has to dump it somewhere for all eternity. To sin means to miss/fall short of the mark, therefore if God intended to save all, which even most eternal torment believers will agree He did, but is now unable to, they are saying God is missing/falling short of His mark and therefore sinning! This is a far more serious attack on God's character than many realize.

The doctrine of Annihilation is somewhat more humane, BUT it sadly denies both God and His Christ the glory, something many have sadly lost sight of.

I look forward with great expectation to a future time when all will not only come into a realization of the truth, but for when "in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing ... and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father." Phil 2:10-11 (CLV), because we are told this will be FOR THE GLORY OF God!  All believers should truly long for this, otherwise they should be the most miserable of believers, in holding to a doctrine where the God they worship won't ultimately get His rightful glory.

Thankfully all will come to realize the following truths because God is indeed ALMIGHTY and will accomplish:
Reconciliation of all (Col. 1:20)
Justification of all (Rom. 5:18)
Vivification of all (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
Subjection of all (1 Cor. 15:28)
Salvation of all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
Merciful To All  (Rom. 11:32)
God All in all (1 Cor. 15:28)

In His grace.

[MusicLover123]

So you're finally being brainwashed convinced of UR? Yipee! :myahoo:

Time for a celebration!  :banana:

[marie glen]

_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford:  Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
Moreover, throughout the first century B.C., it is all but universally taught that only the righteous should have part in the resurrection.

  :faint: I believe this to be a  totally false statement! 

As regards Sheol, a whole history is wrapped up in the uses of this term. Amid the various divergent conceptions of it in the Old Testament two features always persist.

Maybe in the Talmud, but not the Old Testament..

First, it is a place where social and not moral distinctions prevail ; and secondly, though an abode of misery and wretchedness, it is not like Gehenna-- a place of torment by fire. Now in the course of Apocalyptic literature these views are abandoned. From 160 B.C. onward Sheol is always conceived as a place of moral distinctions, and shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament.

Do they include any sources? To support..

What happens in the case of these two conceptions happens in the case of all technical eschatological terms.  There is constant movement, constant development; and the movement is, on the whole, towards a more spiritual conception of the future, in the course of which the lower survivals of the past are steadily dropped and higher conceptions set in their place. But, as is natural, throughout the entire development eschatological thought always stands on a lower spiritual plane than the theological conception of God.

I'm afraid I don't even understand this.. are they saying man's thoughts (evolving thoughts) about God's Word are superior to God's Word? Really? Ug.

We have referred above to the incorporation of a large body of Jewish ideas into the system of Christian thought and their subsequent transformation in the process.

Amen! Which in turn came from Pagan, non-biblical world wide ideas of man.. "nothing new under the sun"! :gsmile:

  But all such ideas did not undergo complete or even partial transformation, and we have to recognize the presence of Judaistic elements in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the Pauline Epistles, particularly the earlier, and the Apocalypse.

We have already seen that at all periods in the history of Israel there existed side by side in its religion incongruous and inconsistent elements. On the one side there was the doctrine of God ever advancing in depth and fullness ; on the other, eschatological and other survivals, which, however justifiable in other stages, were in unmistakable antagonism with the theistic beliefs of the time.  The eschatology of the nation is always the last part of its religion to experience the transforming power of new ideas and new facts. The eschatology of Israel was at times six hundred years behind its theology.

People corrupt everything.. When YHWH told Jacob to build an altar by stacking stones "untouched by man's tools, for that would corrupt the stones" - I think that is a perfect example of God's Word.. as delivered.. free of man's tools/working upon it.. :gsmile:

The recognition of these facts is of transcendent importance when we deal with New Testament eschatology. It prepares us for the occurrence to some extent of similar phenomena in the New Testament, and makes us ready to acknowledge their existence and give them their full historical value. The mere presence of such incongruities within the New Testament gives them no claim on the acceptance of the Church. Standing at variance as they do with the Christian fundamental doctrines of God and Christ, they must be condemned as survivals of an earlier and lower stage of religious belief.  In Christianity there is a survival of alien Judaistic elements, just as in the Hebrew religion there were for centuries survivals of Semitic heathenism.

Again, man's improvement upon God's Word.. :eek: Obviously they do not believe God's Words are His! And they are "contradicting God's Word"! :mshock: :faint: ...but for the grace of God, of course there go I.. but happily not..!? :shock:

Let me take two concrete instances. In the Hebrew religion Sheol, as a place of social and national distinctions, was a purely heathen conception.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: a king priest collusion originally, to control the ppl..?

The first decisive stage in its moralization took place early in the second century B.C., when it was transformed into a place of moral distinctions. But this moralization was very inadequately carried out. According to the Judaistic conceptions, souls in Sheol were conceived as insusceptible of ethical progress. What they were on entering Sheol, that they continued to be till the final judgement. This conception is mechanical and unethical, if judged in the light of Christian theism.

Aha! Yes.. if the dead live on in death.. or that is, if the unsaved dead are alive (in another form of living?) wouldn't they not as you say, be mechanical, but still learning.. and so why would Jesus, who said He will draw ALL to Him, be drawing them? So when they rise in resurrection "after the thousand years" wouldn't they after all that time, been drawn?

It precludes moral change in moral agents who are under the rule of a Being of perfect love and righteousness. The doctrine of eternal damnation, also, is a Judaistic survival

..but didn't they assimilate it from that old tired source of paganism, so no more at fault than anyone else, I just want to point out.. all also in the plan of God.. that all be subjected to unbelief.. Israel served to bring forth Messiah.. the church to pass out the bread of life (the Truth, the word, the "good news")

of a still more grossly immoral character. This doctrine gained acceptance in Judaism when Monotheism had become to a great extent a lifeless dogma and Jewish particularism reigned supreme, and when a handful of Jews could not only comfortably believe that God was the God of the Jews only, and that of a very few, but also could imagine that part of their highest bliss in the next world would consist in witnessing the torments of their apostate brethren in Gehenna. Such a doctrine is antagonistic in the highest degree to the Sermon on the Mount, where a man is taught to love his enemies even as God does, and to labour unceasingly on their behalf, and to the Johannine teaching which finds its highest expression in the divinest utterance in all literature-- 'God is love.'

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: And is recognizing that God's Word is Truth, and man's thought about it (arrogant thought about it?) is far inferior and saves no one.

In connexion with this, the highest conception of God possible, the conception of Hades must make its final ethical advance and become a place where moral growth and moral declension are alike possible. This advance is really implied in 1 Peter iv.  Furthermore, the old Judaistic conception of Hell as a place of eternal damnation must be abandoned. Sin, according to the Johannine view, is the destroyer of life-- physical, spiritual, and ontological. Now to check the ultimate effects of this process of destruction and preserve the sinner in a state of ever-growing, ever-deepening, and yet ever-inevitable sin could in no sense be the work of the God so conceived.

The theology of the New Testament with its doctrine of the Fatherhood of God demands a transformation of this Jewish doctrine, and postulates our acceptance either of Conditional Immortality, or, as Origen of old taught, of Universalism. So far as the Christian Churches hold fast to the doctrine taken over from Judaism at the Christian era, their eschatology is nearly two thousand years behind their doctrine of God and Christ. We are all ready, I hope, in some fashion to recognize the possibility of a further probation. Some of us may only go so far as to hold probation as a purely speculative question and a matter of grace on the part of God.

But there are others amongst us who regard it in quite a different light, and who cannot simply relegate it to the region of God's uncovenanted mercies, seeing that it affects so deeply the character of God Himself. Nay, they would hold it a dishonour to the God they revere and serve even to admit the possibility that He should visit with a never-ending punishment the errors and shortcomings, nay more, the wilful sins of a few dim and mistaken years of earth, and limit to a handbreadth of time the opportunities and irremediable issues of a never-ending eternity. If this were so, the present world, with all its abuses and wrongfulness and injustice, would be infinitely more equitable than the world to come. Such then appears to be the conclusion that should be drawn from the Christian doctrine of the Fatherhood of God. By adopting this conclusion we bring once more eschatology into harmony with Christian theology.

Untruth can only result in more untruth.. So what's being said is - If there is error in the theology there is error in the eschatological view also? The words of bible prophecy being seen through a false prism..

:Chinscratch: A new thought.. (to me) ..if UR is true, and we know it is, if the unsaved who have died are conscious, wouldn't the Spirit of Jesus be drawing them? If so, wouldn't at least some of them rise as believers, thus saved? Instead of what Jesus called "rising to judgment" as opposed to - in the same verse - rising to life? How then that there are two totally different resurrections.. initially(!) that is.. If UR is true, and we know it is, there must be a time when Jesus completes the work of "drawing all to Himself" (Jn.12:32.) So this must (imo) occur either while they are in the grave (sheol) or after.. yes? Yet Et makes it seem like they rise and are thrown away.. or actually worse than thrown away. Imagine waking up and cast to a lof..  :eek: ..when God was the one who chose who would be able to believe during this brief lifetime.. no/not logos/logic?

[marie glen]

from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqqVwzMkiPc&lc=z22hcltr4qjvwdyy404t1aokgpuda1cj4gko1iw5ufbybk0h00410.1545692938155601
Lex Treme 1 year ago
Correct Donna and you make a very good point that many don't consider. Why was Adam not warned about an eternal hellfire, or Abraham, Moses, even the Apostle Paul ,who was appointed to the nations by the risen glorified Christ doesn't mention it once! People don't look at scripture in context.

Or use logic when it comes to the logos.. root word of logic.. what irony! :laughing7:

This is a long comment but I hope it may be helpful. The original Hebrew/Greek words that were used all had specific meanings, however over time the original meanings strayed, mainly through traditions so now have taken on different meanings.

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Hell for example is not a Greek word, (hence can't even be found in many bible translations) it's actually used in the word HEL-MET which is a head COVERING, not a place of eternal torment. The four words often lumped together are, Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) grave/pit/unseen, then Tartarus (Greek) used for sinning angels, finally Gehenna (Greek) had the strongest link to fire because it was a literal place located just outside the walls of Jerusalem, in the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehhinnom), it was a rubbish dump, you can visit the area today, although obviously it looks very different now.

:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:

Matthew 25:31-46 is the passage many turn to for the doctrine of 'hell' or 'eternal torment', but sadly people rarely read the specific context of what is going on in Matthew 25:31-46? We find the use of the words follow a specific judgement, at a specific future time, involving a specific group.

I won't post all the verses here but below is a summary of Matthew 25:31-46, highlighting some key points that are often overlooked.

(1)The target audience is NATIONS
(2)They are GATHERED (not resurrected from the dead as in Revelation 20:12) so are living at the time.
(3)TWO 'GROUPS' are formed in the judgement - Sheep (Right hand) / Goats (Left hand).
(4)REASON For Judgement – The King's brethren Hungered, was Thirsty, a Stranger, Naked, Infirm or in Jail. Which of the nations responded to these circumstances? (So it's a humanitarian judgement)
(5)RESULT of the Judgement - The Sheep (nations) responded to the above circumstances, so WILL ENJOY AGE-ABIDING/DURING LIFE in the allotment of the kingdom (notice NOT rule and reign in it), but the Goat (nations) did not respond to the above circumstances, so will go away to AGE-ABIDING/DURING CORRECTION/PUNISHMENT/CHASTENING.

I believe Jesus says this occurs "at His return" -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand.."

This reminds me of -

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

"The harvest" is when? 1 Corinthians 15:23 - each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming^harvest... then the end^harvest and God all in all..

Which verses absolutely remind me of "REv.16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."

Doesn't this happen at His return?

The verses Rev. 16:14-15-16 =
"14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. The two concurrent harvests of Revelation (then the narrative reviews what occurred to Babylon, the Great - previously.)

14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
(BOTH the Sheep and the Goat nations actually acknowledge Jesus as Lord in the judgement).
[/quote]
  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Which follows the return of Jesus and the resurrection of all believers "after the thousand years" - Rev.20.

Verse 46 reveals (addressing the goat nations below)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (KJV)

"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." (REB)

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (YLT)

"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)

an age of correction..(?) concurrent with those living the same age, but of life, instead of correction - they've been corrected and reconciled (before their death)

We find the judgement is based on who helped the King's brethren (Israel) I believe during the difficult tribulation period to come. Verse 46 reveals 'the goat nations' who don't help won't get entrance into the Kingdom, but will rather miss out. Rotherham emphasized bible is probably the clearest in it's choice of words, revealing no one goes away to eternal torment, but much rather to a specific time of age-abiding/during correction, to basically be set right.

I just think it's a characteristic trait to not be helpful, especially as the days of atheism truly progress..?

The Book of Revelation does reveal that at a future time some will enter "the second death" Rev 2:11 , 20:6, 20:14, 21:8, but this is dealing with the Great White Throne Judgement, which is a different judgement to the one in Matthew 25,

:thumbsup: :iagree:

however 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us to a time beyond the Great White Throne Judgement, therefore we read that ultimately death will be abolished, i.e. hold no one, 1 Cor 15:26 and we find God's ultimate purpose is to be "ALL in all" 1 Cor 15:28! People think if God is going to save all, that means He does away with His Judgement's, but far from it, God is wise, His Judgement's do not work against His purpose, but much rather they are used as a MEANS for Him to accomplish a glorious end, i.e. to ultimately be "All in all" 1 Cor 15:28.

Amen :cloud9:

The doctrine of eternal torment takes sin THE LEAST seriously, as this doctrine demotes God to a little g "god" who can't ever resolve the problem and so has to dump it somewhere for all eternity. To sin means to miss/fall short of the mark, therefore if God intended to save all, which even most eternal torment believers will agree He did, but is now unable to, they are saying God is missing/falling short of His mark and therefore sinning! This is a far more serious attack on God's character than many realize.

Amen :faint:

The doctrine of Annihilation is somewhat more humane, BUT it sadly denies both God and His Christ the glory, something many have sadly lost sight of.

I look forward with great expectation to a future time when all will not only come into a realization of the truth, but for when "in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing ... and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father." Phil 2:10-11 (CLV), because we are told this will be FOR THE GLORY OF God!  All believers should truly long for this, otherwise they should be the most miserable of believers, in holding to a doctrine where the God they worship won't ultimately get His rightful glory.

Thankfully all will come to realize the following truths because God is indeed ALMIGHTY and will accomplish:
Reconciliation of all (Col. 1:20)
Justification of all (Rom. 5:18)
Vivification of all (1 Cor. 15:22-24)
Subjection of all (1 Cor. 15:28)
Salvation of all (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
Merciful To All  (Rom. 11:32)
God All in all (1 Cor. 15:28)

In His grace.[/font][/size]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

!! We can see these, subtle and not so subtle changes in the Judaism beliefs reflected in words.. Like Sheol.. the Bible makes plain, for mortal man, it was a state of dust and the breath returns to God who gave it. It was a place where there was no doing nor thought.. but over time, it too, absorbed the Pagan mindset and view of life, death and (the) afterlife (afterlife as naturally occurring).

THIS(?) is why we find some extensions of meaning attached to words, in lexicons and interlinear, that once were not there in the Judaic mindset, originally as God designed and separated them to that end.

For that reason!(?)

They weren't to copy the nations in their 'secret' rites and sacrifices. For obvious reasons. Yet even the horrible idea of a hell is a spin off of the mild, life after death belief.. Or that is belief in naturally occurring, inherent life after death. (Whether believers live on After death is, to me, another topic.. Jesus breathes on them and said "receive ye the Spirit.." And God's "breath" or "life energy" of course is what gives life.. That's why, even though personally, I lean toward believing the dead in Christ 'sleep' until they "hear His voice and rise".. This distinction doesn't matter much to me.

But the idea that the (as they say) unsaved soul lives on after death, i think of as a foundational untruth which has caused much trouble. (Observing the result and fruits of something helps in discernment? / our learning accurate discernment? Unlike Eve who discerned the forbidden fruit to be attractive.. and discerned the serpent's words - or other than God's words, to be superior to God's Words... And relied on her own discernment instead of God's which He had stated.. o the danger of being told what the Bible says? the many many voices telling us what the Bible says.. exposed to that before reading the slim New Testament for our self..? So ET goes on and on, no matter how nonsensical.. Even scripture quoted cannot always break the spell.. Until God breaks it. :cloud9:

Just my :2c: of course..
God bless..
great study DF..

[DavidFord]

From  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrBSMe6_E40
ni stan5 months ago (edited)
Listen up brothers and sisters, I have been a "Christian for 57 years, I believed the mainstream Christian conditional salvation message, I "worked" hard at trying to "please" God and "maintain" my salvation so that I don't "lose it", and my life still went to hell in a handbasket because I didn't understand what HE really did on the cross, and my true Identity in Christ!

Then after I committed a life altering sin, the Lord let me leave (my own choice) and live a life of hell for the past 22 years (prodigal son). The Holy Spirit Himself restored me (my mind, not my salvation, even though I believed I was eternally lost) 3 years ago in a profound way when I was about to give up on living, and HE revealed these 3 truths to me since then. #1. He never left me, #2. He never leaves ANYONE!, #3. What "God is LOVE" really means because I experienced God's unconditional love for me for the first time in my life!

Christian Universalism Originally known as Apocatastasis (google it) was, and still is the original gospel of Paul & the first church. It is still held by faithful Eastern Orthodoxy because they don't use any Catholic bible translations. Apocatastasis was abolished by the Early Catholic church and "conditional salvation" was put in its place within the text of the Catholic "Latin Vulgate" which most English translations including the KJV are influenced by today.

The original manuscripts never speak of eternal separation, eternal conscious torment, or some BBQ pit called hell that a crazy, vengeful God sends people to. That is a mixture of pagan & Catholic crap which has put over a billion Christians into mental bondage and anguish, exactly what Jesus came to free everyone from in his day (set the captives free from religious bondage).

Jesus did not come to save us from some angry God, God sent Jesus to save us from OURSELVES (sin is not the problem, the loss of our original identity in Christ is), and RESET our original identity in HIM which was lost in the garden. It's not about penal substitution (A crazy psychopathic God that needs to torture His son) and then torture US if we decide not to Love him. The Catholic Theology has created an INSANE western Christianity!

The Entire bible (use Youngs literal or any other translation that has nothing to do with the Latin Vulgate) in its ORIGINAL manuscript context and content preaches that God WILL save everyone (in this life, or in a future RESURRECTION where further correction and revelation of His LOVE occurs) and that the "cross/Jesus" WAS (not hopes to be) fully victorious!

Would the ALMIGHTY GOD let Satan have even one lost person? Really? Lets go back and read the story of the one lost sheep Jesus went to bring back, and stop having so much distorted vengeance in our hearts for others and self righteous pride thinking there is such a thing as us vs. them (non-believers). Peace

[DavidFord]

My comment on this:  I do think Adam existed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkfewt4XBio
RL Fiar    Brian, Think on this. God's mercy endures forever. It doesn't die when you do. Jesus proclaimed forgiveness in the act of being brutally and unjustly murdered.
He said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. He doesn't say or do anything unless the Father does. He said "i and my father are one." Hebrews says He is the express image of the invisible God.
The nature of our Creator is that He takes the worst possible thing you can do to a person, let's it happen to Him, and proclaims forgiveness in the act.

As in Adam ALL DIE, so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. I don't believe in Adam. DOn't think he was real. Does that exempt me from being able to be "in Adam." How does one get "in Adam?"
We're told that there are all sorts of conditions to be "in Christ" even though by Him all things consist. All things are of God. This is in the book.
God is not God of the dead, but of the living, and Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. He never once said , "I came to improve the quality of being dead." That' would be the opposite of, "I came to give life and life more abundantly."
It's not an offer, it's a proclamation. It's a divine decree. You don't get a choice. Your will can be as free as you think you want it to be. You can not ever outwit, outlast, out persevere, out maneuver, outlive, or otherwise foil God in His plans for you which is that you be conformed to the image of Christ.
The gate is never shut.
8 months ago

Gabriel Camarena  When you examine God's character. He is love and He will accomplish all that He wants. The ultimate conclusion is the Jesus died for all mankind and in the end every person will come to faith in Christ...if not in this life than in the next after death. All things in the universe will be reconciled.   If even one person is lost, God would not have succeeded in his rescue plan. God does not lose to sin, death, and the devil. He will be fully victorious and eventually every knee will bow to Him in worship.
4 weeks ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T2YfFhO64
chazbo3071fun Anything less than the ultimate reconciliation and restoration of humanity would mean that Adam's disobedience had a greater impact on humanity than Christ's death on the cross. Romans 5:19 states that as men were made sinners through Adam's disobedience, men will be made righteous through Christ's obedience. We know that ALL men were made sinners as a result of Adam's sin. If only SOME are made righteous through Christ (Orthodox Christianity believes very few),  then Adam's transgression was more powerful than the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.

https://youtu.be/EWVYZqFYMjM
ni stan1 year ago (edited) Be at peace. The lake of fire is God's LOVE that will heal and purify ALL people (Daniel 7:9-10). Remember, he was the burning bush in front of Moses. It did not consume the bush, but made the ground Moses stood on HOLY! The reason the eyes of the heart are NOT enlightened is because you don't believe that Jesus died and rose to save EVERYONE. Once you look at ALL people and see that Jesus will heal & bring ALL to salvation, then you will see the true burning fire of God's love in every human you see around you through the eyes of the heart, which is God's true love.
The popular mindset that God is conditional and that many will perish is continuing to cause people to seek God out of fear rather than true love. If we truly study the scriptures in context and from the original language used to record them, we will see how the enemy has used the doctrine of "hell" and "torment" to separate God from ALL his creation. It's the enemy's worse possible slander and deception of God! I pray that our eyes be opened to God's true mercy and love, and that the unbiblical message preached by mainstream Christianity will revert back to the original truth Paul preached so that people will finally be set free of fear to love God unconditionally, which is what he has wanted from the beginning. Remember, love casts out fear, the incorrect view of "hell" keeps fear alive, which is what the enemy wants. When you see ALL people as God does, then you will "get it" and your ministry will be blessed without measure.
The peace of the Lord be with you all. Amen

[marie glen]

God "is perfect" the Scriptures say this, and logic (surely) tells us this is true, after all "missing the mark" results in death.. translated, of course, as "the wages of sin".

Which makes perfect sense to me, because I have to think thatGod is life. Itself.. the breath and spark of. So this 'wrong road' of life, missing the mark is imperfection, the opposite of life. (But how to prevent that? No thinking ability endowed?)

Bottom line (to me) being it is (surely?) absolutely impossible for Perfection to make any mistake(s).. impossible to be taken by surprise by anything :laughing7:

And, it is certainly impossible to lose anything, certainly not any one, let alone 1/3 of His angels and 3/4's of humanity!

The whole ancient superstition of afterlife punishment, I believe is totally ridiculous. Once we know the 5 words mistakenly translated to read 'hell' and acquaint ourselves with the original (biblical) Sheol, before legend or evolution of the word.. And how aion/eon cannot really mean for ever. And the literal bible from Genesis to Apocalypse is simple and logical. What's built on sand or is the wrong way, cannot endure.. but fades. Dies.

And, to me, all 'wrath' is merely consequences. This learning of good from evil, fiery judgments also results of man's own doings.. And I don't blame God for wanting Israel to destroy the Canaanite nation's (nephilim?) Nor at the flood.. Otherwise humanity would have imploded long ago.  And wher would you and I be? Never born. And the fire He returns in, I also believe to nan's doing.. and the tares gathered and burned I simply believe to be the gathering to Armageddon. And we know He resurrects all. "All the ends of Earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and ALL families of the nations will worship before Him" Ps.22:27. And Jesus will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32. Even the Canaanites who were so heavily into human sacrifice.

The way I see it.. all of this - history/ life as we presently know it, is unavoidable. If we are to be rational, able to think, reason and ponder, and yes even make choices.. but the only safe choice is one based on proper discernment, and full understanding of good from evil , which I think is life from death (as nekros, lack of life/not living).

It seems kind of simple to me, too. But I've not been "taught". This year is my 40th of being a believer and studying, etc. And my exposure to 'Christianity' has been extremely limited. I used to think I should feel bad about that.. but i'm very happy about it after finding out how deeply entrenched the errors are in ET.

[DavidFord]

From my posts at https://youtu.be/EWVYZqFYMjM
"first Advent, Christ came to save.  At the second, he comes to judge.  He will repay the wicked according to their works." When will God restore Sodom?

Ezekiel 16 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+16&version=NIV
46 *Your older sister was Samaria,* who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and *your younger sister,* who lived to the south of you with her daughters, *was Sodom.*  47 You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but *in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they.*  48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, *your sister Sodom* and her daughters *never did what you and your daughters have done.*

49 Now this was the sin of *your sister Sodom:*  She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.  50 They were haughty and *did detestable things before me.  Therefore I did away with them* as you have seen.  51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did.  You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done.  52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 However, *I will restore the fortunes of Sodom* and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, *Sodom* with her daughters *and Samaria* with her daughters, *will return to what they were before;* and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines-- all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the Lord.

59 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:  *I will deal with you as you deserve,* because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant.  60 *Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.*  61 Then *you will* remember your ways and be ashamed when you *receive your sisters,* both those who are older than you and those who are younger.  I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you.  62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the Lord.  63 Then, *when I make atonement for you for all you have done,* you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord.

Do you agree with verses 10-12?
Hebrews 8 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews+8&version=NKJV
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says:  "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.  10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord:  I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."  13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.  Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Do you agree with verse 22?:
1 Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For *as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.* 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes *the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.* 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now *when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.*

=========================
"the precious blood of dear Christ Jesus is SO priceless"
Is there anything that that priceless blood can't purchase?  Do you think all those of the House of Israel will know God, "from the least to the greatest"?
Hebrews 8 (KJV)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:  and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

"the Righteous Judge will be more excellent in His decision to implement execution in the most righteous way"
Could that judge implement reconciliation "in the most righteous way"?   
Col 1:20 (KJV) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Do you agree with verse 18?:   
Romans 5:12-19 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If I created a being that could feel pain, and placed that being in a location where he would experience a constant, very high level of pain for an infinite length of time, what would you call me?  (a torturer?  a sadist?)

In the very end, everyone will be saved.  Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, and in the end, Jesus will be completely successful.  He'll leave the 99 and get that lost sheep.  He'll sweep the house and get that lost coin.  He'll wait expectantly for that last prodigal to return.

There's a whole branch of Christianity that thinks God keeps pursuing people, even those people that go to hell:
Orthodox view of Salvation
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8

_Heaven's Doors: Wider Than You Ever Believed!_ (2017) by George W. Sarris https://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Doors-Wider-Than-Believed/dp/0980085322/ chapter 4, "What did the early Church teach?"  On 39, it says Alexandria, Caesarea, Antioch, and Eastern Syria believed in ultimate restoration, while Asia Minor was annihilationist, and Northern Africa adhered to never-ending torture.

Do you think Jesus will follow-through on his John 12:32 promise to "draw all men unto" himself?
John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Do you think God:  allowed all to fall into disobedience?  will have mercy on all? 
Do you agree with verse 26 that "all Israel will be saved"?:
Romans 11 (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  26 And so *all Israel will be saved,* as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When *I take away their sins."*
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.  30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.  32 For *God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.*
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For *of Him and through Him and to Him are all things,* to whom be glory forever.  Amen.

The Bible contains progressive revelation about God, and some things said about God conflict with other things said about God.  Do you think God prompted David to sin by taking a census?  (A later, more theologically-informed rendition has satan and not God prompting the sin.)
2 Samuel 24
1 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." ....  10 And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."
1 Chronicles 21
1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.  ....  7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore He struck Israel. 8 So David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing; but now, I pray, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."

Do you think "every tongue" will "confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"?
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:  and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

[sheila]

note howHe bound up all in sin and disobedience..in order to remove any false pride or boasting[formed us all weak and corruptible

in the image of the corrupt]That we all shut our mouth..finger pointing/faultfinding.[let he who has no sin cast the first stone]

Canyou say,'every man is a liar and God alone is true..in order that you may be justified?]

andyet,of our RETURN to our former state[what we was before]HE SAYS..the former things shall be forgotton..and


MY PEOPLE SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED.... In our yet imperfect state...there is despising of sin and shame and nakedness..even

our Lord Jesus despised the shame ...Hebrews 12;2...but our humiliation now..is nothing compared to the Glory that awaits.


I believe He not only breaks up the works of the devil..but will totally destroy them..and that it will be a shameful thing

to even mention them.

  Ephesians5;3 ...let fornication,greed and impurity not once be named among you

and5;12.......FOR IT IS SHAMEFUL TO EVEN MENTION WHAT THE DISOBEDIENT DO IN SECRET

v 8 for you were once darkness,but now are light in the LORD. :2c:

[sheila]

Matt 1;19-25......v 19 BECAUSE JOSEPH HER HUSBAND WAS A JUST MAN,,,,,,,,,AND DID NOT WANT TO EXPOSE HER TO PUBLIC

DISGRACE.............


Just spirits of men made perfect.Hebrews 12;22-24But,you havecome to mount Zion..the Heavenly Jerusalem,the city of the living God

You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,to the church of the firstborn,whose names are written

in heaven.You have come to God the judge of  all men[He says,my people will not be ashamed"],to the Spirits of just men made perfect

TOJESUS..themediatorof anew covenant[the same one whom said of the womancaught in the act...he who is without sin cast the first

stone]and to the sprinkled blood that speaks abetter word than the blood of Abel. :2c:

[sheila]

Psalms 32;2 and Roman4;8

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him....and in whose spirit is no deceit.[Psalms32;2]

Romans4;7,8Blessedaretheywhosetransgressions areforgiven,whosesins arecovered.

Blessed is the man whose sins  THE LORD WILL NEVER COUNT AGAINST HIM.



Making an END of SIN...

Daniel9;24seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people.....to finish transgression,TO PUT AN END TO SIN,TO ATONE FOR WICKEDNESS

to bring in Everlasting righteousness..to SEAL UP vision and Prophecy...AND TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.


Matt 18;22...Lord,how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me?Up to seven times?

Jesus answered,"I tellyou,not seven times but seventy seven times.70X7's and7+77

verse 32,33.YOU WICKED SERVANT....SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE HAD MERCY ON YOUR FELLOW SERVANTS JUST AS I HAD ON YOU?

[v

Matt 25;14-30

Matt 24;45,50-5130but he refused,he went off and had the man thrown in prison until he could pay the debt

Matt 6;15...BUT IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE MEN THEIR SINS,YOUR FATHER WILL NOT FORGIVE YOUR SINS.

LAW_SUITS AMONG BELIEVERS...1Cor,6;7 THE VERY FACT THAT YOU HAVE LAWSUITS[lawyers]AMONG YOU MEANS YOU HAVE

BEEN COMPLETELY DEFEATED ALREADY.

LAWYERS Isaaih 59;4

Luke 11;45-52andJohn8;32...and you experts in the law ,woe to you!.Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

                                                                                                                     :2c:

[DavidFord]

"Romans 9:23-‬24 Who are the 'us' the writer refers to here?"
Maybe all people-- everybody.

_Chosen For Paradise:  Reframing Election in Romans 9-11_ by John Crowder, on 79 and the back cover
https://www.amazon.com/Chosen-Paradise-Reframing-Election-Romans/dp/0977082652/
Who are the vessels of wrath?  In Romans 9:22, Paul says the Israelites.  God's _chosen people are also the vessels of wrath!_  ....the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy are the same individuals.  ....  God is not choosing one human over another.  Jesus Christ is the chosen, elected man on behalf of all humanity.  And you are fully included in Him.

[marie glen]

QUOTE from David Frost --
"...shortly after 100 B.C. Sheol is described for the first time as an abode of fire, as in the New Testament."
_________________

This is, imo, because of three things.
(1)John the Baptist and Jesus alluding to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
(2)the coming thermonuclear age alluded to in the Book of Revelation
(3)the lake of fire, which more and more I believe to be the "baptism by fire" which all must experience; and also the "all in all" event when God "makes all things new".
And (4)the Gehenna dump in the valley Tophet

I did a study, for my own benefit.. which I'm thinking fits very good here..

I think of it as "HOW BOTH the ORIGINAL BIBLICAL SHEOL, and FIERY JUDGMENT (earthly!) BECAME INACCURATELY PERCEIVED and PORTRAYED AS 'hell'.

["...Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27]

"Therefore wait upon me, says the Lord until the day that I rise up.. for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them my indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy." Zephaniah 3:8 (I read that this verse uses every letter of the Hebrew alphabet(?) [And I think His indignation and anger is consequences and results of man's own doings! Because He is SO wise, AND SO utterly capable.]

"Then was the (empires of man, the) iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, were broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors, and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Daniel 2:35

"Now also many nations are gathered against you that say, Let her be defiled and let our eye look upon Zion. But they know not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make your horn iron, and I will make your hoofs brass: and thou shall beat in pieces many and I will consecrate their gain to the Lord, and their substance to the Lord of the whole earth." Micah 4:12-13


[Arema-gai-dun - "A heap of sheaves in a valley for judgement."]

"Let the nation's be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision." Joel 3:12-14

[Jehoshaphat's name - "The Judgements of Yah"]

I read this which I found interesting and it's stuck with me, about the symbol or theme, of "threshing judgements" of God.

The Hebrew word for "decision" is "chawruts" which also means "threshing instruments" - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2742.htm

The allusion is a plain of a valley.. "God's threshing floor" - And where it was - Jerusalem.. where Herod's Temple stood in the time of Jesus.. And the one before it, in Nehemiah and Ezra's days, before then, Solomon's Temple, built where had been the altar of David built "on the threshing floor" 1 Chronicles 21:18,22.

Which too, as we know, is the place where the faith of Abraham was tested in the test of 'Isaac's sacrifice' 2 Chronicles 3:1; Genesis 22:2, at the very heart of the land God promised to Abraham.

God's judgement upon the nations - allowing the results of mankind 's doing to fully unfold.. By it "He will settle His controversy with the nations" (Jer. 25:31) and is "the beginning of His long program of judging the world with righteousness" - I read that phrase somewhere, but I don't remember where, but used it.

It's not just a fiery war between nations, but is the return of Jesus - "He comes with his angels and in fire.." 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8.

At what is called "the Great and the Terrible Day of the Lord" Joel 2:30,31.. Ezekiel 38; Zechariah 12-14; etc. And Revelation 16:14-16, Armageddon, "when the nations are gathered together for the battle of that great day of God Almighty".

"And as the toes of the feet were part of iron (Roman based/western?), and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.. and in the days of those (ten) kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, and this kingdom will not be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever" Daniel 2:42,44.

"In my vision in the night I continued to watch: And I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence.
-- And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship - so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.. and the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him." Daniel 7:27. [1 Corinthians 15:22--->28]

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting agelasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly..." Daniel 12:2-4.

The TWO HARVESTS -
Revelation 14:16-20 and verse 10 (and we know where the next verse says 'forever' the word is more like a duration of time. From short to long?)

"..and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" Matthew 24:30.

"16 And the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood (oil?) came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs." Revelation 14:16-20.

14:10 -  ..whosoever..shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The next verse (11) in an interlinear word for word version, says, "and the smoke of the torment of them to ages of ages goes up.."

Personally, I think that's a fancy way of saying that the whole thing - the end result - of the wrong and wayward way - will never be forgotten.

But above all! --- Not Afterlife torment. Not 'hell'.  :girlheart:

[sheila]

...at that threshing floor...is where the plague of death is stopped....when David numbered Israel.For it was not the will of God that


the salvation of All be revealed at that time. :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen! ..amen also "an end of sin".. I actually think all judgment on judgment 'day' will be sure initially some hard come uppance for the worst of the worst.. within. :dontknow: It's just how it seems to me. (That judgment will be within.)

I think "the judgment will be at least 80% good things. Good things 'written' in the books.. For one thing, every spark of Iove, of courtesy, of respect, that's God himself.. and the Lord. History may be a terrible witness and proof, but there's families, friendship.. so many good things in life and in things people do. Acts of kindness, empathy's.. encouragement, every smile. None of us are perfect.. never were.. but if He tells us to love Mercy, how can we think that he doesn't?
:friendstu: ..,.things will be so subdued that a small child will be able to play at the entrance to the poisonous snake den, Isaiah 11. His people will be able to sleep in the forest, Isaiah 65?

[sheila]

Rev 15;4Who will not fearyou,O'Lord and bring glory to YOUR NAME?For you alone are holy...........


ALL NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP  BEFORE YOU,FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS 'ACTS"HAVE BEEN REVEALED......


the'act"...Romans5;18,19..so,just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners

SO ALSO THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN...THE MANY SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

Psalms50;16-18 But to the wicked,God says...what right have you to recite my laws?or take my covenant on your lips?

You hate my instruction,and cast my words behind you[freely forgive].when you see a thief you joined withhim

[house of prayer for all men]....

you use your mouth for evil[accuser]you speak continually against your brother,and slander your own mother's son.


Isaaih 54;17NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU WILL PREVAIL...AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TOUGNE THAT ACCUSES YOU

:2c:ps..not written against you,Marie..just needed to say this in regard to God's mercy unto all men triumphing over judgement.

no more devouring[beastly ways to each other]and accusing[serpents harming]

[DavidFord]

"how many gods do you believe in?"  One.
"Why is god a human? Why does god have parts?"  God took on a human earth-suit.  Human earth-suits typically have arms, legs, etc.

"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a radically-changed, glorified body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

_Unlocking the Mystery of Divine Healing_ by Tony Myers, 66, 67
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mystery-Divine-Healing-Myers/dp/1912045575/
The cross wasn't God pouring out His wrath onto Jesus, as is [commonly] taught; it was Jesus accepting sin into His body, thereby trapping sin.  Then, when He gave His life, Jesus took sin out of this world.  ....Christ had to be perfect and was perfect.  There was no contamination within Christ's body, therefore he alone could contain the sin of Adam and Israel.

Romans 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being."  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Isaiah 53:5  But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
1 Peter 2:24  who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed.

[MusicLover123]

"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a brand new body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

So like a sponge?

[DavidFord]

"Why did god kill himself?"  The prophet Jesus who is God allowed humans to kill his physical body (they couldn't injure his spirit).  Jesus lived a totally perfect life-- never sinning once-- and brought into his physical body all of humanity's sins and sicknesses.  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a brand new body.  The poison of humanity's sins and sickness had been successfully captured and discarded, undoing what occurred in the Garden of Eden with Adam's failure.

So like a sponge?

Eh, I'd say like a sterile tube, which captures bacteria for disposal.

_Unlocking the Mystery of Divine Healing_ by Tony Myers, 66, 67
https://www.amazon.com/Unlocking-Mystery-Divine-Healing-Myers/dp/1912045575/
The cross wasn't God pouring out His wrath onto Jesus, as is [commonly] taught; it was Jesus accepting sin into His body, thereby trapping sin.  Then, when He gave His life, Jesus took sin out of this world.  ....Christ had to be perfect and was perfect.  There was no contamination within Christ's body, therefore he alone could contain the sin of Adam and Israel.

I edited a sentence to instead read:  When the earth-suit of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus resurrected himself in a radically-changed, glorified body.

[marie glen]

Rev 15;4Who will not fearyou,O'Lord and bring glory to YOUR NAME?For you alone are holy...........


ALL NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP  BEFORE YOU,FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS 'ACTS"HAVE BEEN REVEALED......


the'act"...Romans5;18,19..so,just as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners

SO ALSO THROUGH THE OBEDIENCE OF THE ONE MAN...THE MANY SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS

Psalms50;16-18 But to the wicked,God says...what right have you to recite my laws?or take my covenant on your lips?

You hate my instruction,and cast my words behind you[freely forgive].when you see a thief you joined withhim

[house of prayer for all men]....

you use your mouth for evil[accuser]you speak continually against your brother,and slander your own mother's son.


Isaaih 54;17NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU WILL PREVAIL...AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TOUGNE THAT ACCUSES YOU

:2c:ps..not written against you,Marie..just needed to say this in regard to God's mercy unto all men triumphing over judgement.

no more devouring[beastly ways to each other]and accusing[serpents harming]

Awesome verses, Sheila! It all seems so obvious..

I often think of this verse too, as even on it's own, proving UR - Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God ^{(by the death of His Son")}

"All" reconciled ("all, every, the whole")..

Also great verses David Ford!

[sheila]

 :2c: the cross was all about not counting men's sins against them[forgiveness..even when/while they put you to a painful death......]

Love keeps no account of the injury...love heals..physician heal thyself.Takeaway all their sin[no account of the injury]sin is missing

the mark of perfect love.....ademon[devil/liar spirit that does not have the Father's love/truth nature]it does not rejoice with the truth

it has not the love of God or man in it.this spirit must be led away to it's destruction by our HIGH PRIEST[take all their sin away]

  Jesus told the Pharisee's sadducees..that they did not have the love of God in them..that they had never seen His shape or form[LOVE]

  the wicked spirit of man[ofsin] in the corrupt image must die..that the new spirit[incorruptible/perfect love]may live eternally.

hardened hearts are like wax cooling[love of the many wil wax cold]shattered.you have heard mensay,'Iwillnever forgive that]...

love cools because of the many offenses into unforgiveness,hard hearts

the elements[thoughts of God]being intensely hot will melt.God's heart melts for us in our pitiful condition.The Lamb is worthy

to open the seals. Rev 5;2He goes forth waging righteous warfare against hard hearts..he shepherds hard hearts with an iron rod

and shatters their vessel like a clay pot.[hardened hearts set in their ways]that they may receive a new spirit[love]If the

righteous strike me it would even be a blessing.


Listen..we must keep the flame of LOVE burning in our hearts..we must be LOVE in this great darkness............where iniquity abounds

Grace must abound all the more. The adversary is all about the destruction[destroyer/]of LOVE.


Love is the spirit of life..it lays it's body down willingly..in order to take it back up again.John10;18no man takes it from me.=He did

not have to die to assuage the Father's sense of justice..but to be an example of the PERFECT LOVE AND FORGIVENESS...

hey,sometimes hard hearts want your blood..and we have to resist sin[falling short of perfect love]and willingly lay it down.

sometimes we have to suffer blows for others sake[leave these alone then]those'weak in faith"or weakness of flesh" :2c:

[sheila]

Great US verse..Psalms 4,5Sing to the Lord you saints of his;Praise His holy name

FOR HIS ANGER [wrath]LASTS ONLY A MOMENT...BUT HIS FAVOUR LASTS A LIFETIME

WEEPING MAY REMAIN FOR A NIGHT[darkness of this world]

BUT REJOICING COMES IN THE MORNING[sonrise/resurrection..day star rises in your heart]

you know..it's hard to read the scriptures by starlight..full sunlight is better


   Rev 21;25 on no day will it's gates ever be shut..FOR THERE WILL BE NO NIGHT THERE

[GodIsLove]

Great posts Sheila