Questions to the Universalist.

[reFORMer]

When Jesus spoke of being born from above or as the rich young ruler (Paul?) had it, "born again," (In John 3) He said concerning how this may be that it is like from where the wind blows, "You cannot tell!"

On the day of Pentecost when Peter was speaking to the crowd (in Acts 2) concerning how to be "saved" he could say how: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (v.38)

[Craig]

On the day of Pentecost when Peter was speaking to the crowd (in Acts 2) concerning how to be "saved" he could say how: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (v.38)

Then one day, God rebuked Peter and he repented from ever saying this again. (in Acts 10, 11) ;) Do not call unclean, that which I have already declared clean.

[Craig]

Sotw,the greek was explained,especially is a word english uses to interchange with specially that is used as you say, still, the word malista means 'that is',or 'in other words'
in the context with which Paul used it.

It has not been used as 'that is, or 'in other words' anywhere in translation, nor do Greek scholars agree with you.

[Peacetroll]

 Can you explain what is being said by John the babtist in these verses from John?

John 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.  

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


If no man recieved his testimony,how can John then say he that hath recieved?
Then again,why did John  say this?

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Why did Luke write this?

Luke 21:16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

No one is hated by all,every man living on the planet.Think context.In thiese cases it means by the majority of human beings.

Wouldn't you think that many phrases used in those times had to be considered in context to the statement made?It is the same with the use of the word all in the scriptures.

[fullarmor2]

This reply:

It can only mean one of three things. 
   
   1) All will be saved.
   2) Not all,  some will be incarcerated forever.
   3) Not all,  some will be destroyed.

   Which do you think it is SOtW?

...is irrelevant because it is a strawman argument. I am not talking about salvation of mankind, I am talking about the usage of 'all'. When I say Jesus saved all mankind, I mean He saved all mankind. We ALWAYS need to QUANTIFY and QUALIFY what ALL means. We cannot say, "Jesus saved all," because that is wrong, he did not save 'all'. We can say, "Jesus saved all mankind," because that is correct, He saved 'all mankind'. 'All' is an adjective and needs a noun to qualify it.

    I see what you mean SOtW.  I agree.  Your being very specific and I think thats a good thing. 

[Peacetroll]

Again,

Answer if you will...

Can you explain what is being said by John the babtist in these verses from John?

John 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.  

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


If no man recieved his testimony,how can John then say he that hath recieved?
Then again,why did John  say this?

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Why did Luke write this?

Luke 21:16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

No one is hated by all, or every man living on the planet.

Think context.

In thiese cases it means by the majority of human beings.

Wouldn't you think that many phrases used in those times had to be considered in context to the statement made?  It is the same with the use of the word all in the scriptures.

[reFORMer]

Really, just pray, intercede and give thanks for ALL people (1 Tim 2¹) for a while.  Pray for your enemies, those you don't like, whose sins make them repugnant to you.  Pray for them til you get free from any condemnation toward them, til you feel yourself utterly at peace with the entire world, "Not reckoning their offenses to them." (1 Cor 5¹⁹)  This is the spiritual realm you're entering wherein is the law of life.  It is what is in Christ Jesus .  You don't get free from the law of sin unto death while holding sin, even that of others. (Rom 8^1-3)  These are God's love commands heeded by the nature He plants in us.  This is some of how anyone can enter into the world of love which is God, in whose presence is fullness of joy.  I feel like a dull and repetitious old man, ignored in some corner somewhere.  But, I found out that if you obey God, your eyes open to things previously imperceptible.

I say this because, unless we're in an utmost desperation before God for our own welfare or for those we love, I've found that most of us (particularly males) have little regard for the doctrinal fortresses we can spin, practically out of thin air, where we "righteously" consign vast numbers of innocent people to some ungrasped horror, a thing we proclaim that is merciless and an unexamined evil not worthy of even the thoughts of a good man, much less God.

When it really matters, you seek diligently for the mercy you hope against hope that you'll surely find, like the Shepherd that sought the one "annihilated" sheep until found and so saved the 99+1=100 (%) sheep, the woman whose "annihilated" drachma was searched for diligently and celebrated over when found, and the Father looking to see the returning prodigal son that was "annihilated' and celebrating over his return with great joy!  If the word used to prove annihilation was used consistently for every Greek occurence you would find it in these verses.

Greek:  "ap ol' lu mi," lit., "FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE;" lose, in the complete state, pass out of one's possession or beyond reach, then the means of doing this, destroy, middle voice, perish...this is the word on which the argument that the wicked are "annihilated" hangs.  "Perish" in John 3^15,16:   "Should not perish," which you've quoted to prove it, is this word.  But these are the very ones Jesus came to save in Luke 19¹⁰! the ones to whom He was sent in Mat 15²⁴.  This is to whom the apostles were sent in Matthew 10⁶, "the 'lost' (destroyed, annihilated?) sheep of the house of Israel."

This was what the one sheep was called that the Shepherd reasoned with us that we would also track down to save in Luke 15^4,6.   I like the example, between that of the Shepherd (Jesus) saving the 99+1=100 (%) sheep and the Father with the prodigal son, of the woman (Spirit) whose drachma was "annihilated" in Luke 15^8-9!

Since almost any use of concordances and interlinears should prove what I've just put before you, there should be no more argument.  Change your mind (Gk., "metanoia!")  A line I early learned from Finney was:  "Adjust to increasing light as rapidly as possible!"


---James Rohde

[SeekerSA]

:goodpost: James :wink:

[WhiteWings]

I think this lengthy quote belongs in this thread.
18 objections agains UR answered.


Objections
1. Appointed Once to Die
2. "All" not all
3. "Things" not people
4. Undermines missions
5. Let's party!
6. Unrighteous & Kingdom
7. Rich man and Lazarus
8. Losing the soul
9. Undermines faith
10. Unpardonable sin
11. Esau hated
12. Judas
13. While He may be found
14. Fear of the Lord
15. Everlasting destruction
16. Gnashing teeth
17. Cruel God
18. Why hidden?
200 Hope Beyond Hell
1. Appointed Once to Die, After Judgment (He. 9:27)
Yes, judgment will come; all Christians know this. However, the issue
in question is the nature and duration of that judgment, not its incontestable
fact. Is there a remedial or restorative element to it, or is it solely
retributive? This passage does not address this.
2. "All" Does Not Mean All.
Some claim the "all" in the context of the Blessed Hope promises does
not mean every single person, that is not all without exception, but merely
all without distinction. However, Dr. Keith DeRose, Yale Philosophy
professor (areas of Spec. Philosophy of Language), also a believer, wrote:
Quantifier phrases...are to be understood...relative to a
contextually determined domain....When the domain is
limited, there has to be some fairly clear clue about what
the limited domain is. When "all" is used in the NT, as in
"All have sinned [Ro. 3:23] and fallen short of the glory of
God," the "all" I take it, refers to all people. It could possibly
refer to some restricted class of people, but that suggestion
is to be rejected, because (a) there is no such restricted
class that clearly presents itself, (b) it's incumbent on a
speaker to make clear what the class is if he means it to be
restricted, and (c) the N.T. does not specify any such restricted
class. So, "All have sinned" means that all people
have sinned, as almost all would agree.1
DeRose goes on to say as "all" have sinned is not restricted, so are the
passages supporting our theme (as found in Appendix I). He continues,
What restricted class of people could be meant? [ Ro. 5:18
and 1 Co. 15:22 for example] Surely not all the saved; that
would turn the statements into useless tautologies: all the
saved are saved? The Biblical writers aren't so incompetent
as to mean some specially restricted class that
doesn't clearly present itself without making it clear.2
Were it not for the prevailing view's agenda, the "all," in such passages
as 1Co. 15:22 would never have been questioned in the first place. Consider
a text shedding light on this. "You have put all things in subjection under
His feet" (He. 2:8). Is there a restricted sense to "all" in this passage?
Appendix III 201
A "You have put all things in subjection under his feet.
B For in that He put all things in subjection under Him,
C He left nothing that is not put under Him.
D But now we do not yet see all things put under Him."
This is a unique passage, as it provides its own built in commentary.
What if this passage only contained clause A, like most Blessed Hope
passages? Then some could argue "all" only means all without distinction,
because "all things" are not presently in subjection. However, those additional
clauses give us a biblical model for other Blessed Hope promises.
The passage reveals two very important truths. "All" in this promise
means all without exception and not distinction. It will find its fulfillment in
God's appointed time. Note the words "but now" and "not yet." Clause C
shows "all" is without exception. No one would contest this. Clause D
specifies God's promises will find their fulfillment in due time though at
present, it is not so. If there is any question about the compatibility of this
passage with other Blessed Hope texts, it is refuted by the following statement
directly linked by a second "but." "But we see Jesus...by the grace of
God...taste death for everyone" (He. 2:9). We can wholeheartedly trust God
when He says "all" in His Blessed Hope promises; "all" is not a mysterious
code word for "some."
3. "Things" Do Not Mean "People"?
See "Restoration of All Things," Chapter 7.
4. Undermines Missions
When He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion, because they were weary
and scattered, ["distressed and dispirited"—NAS] like sheep having no shepherd. Then He
said, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord to
send out laborers into His harvest."
(Mt. 9:36-38)
The world is full of hurting people. They are weary, scattered, distressed,
and dispirited, longing for some good news about life. Christ was moved with
compassion as He contemplated that reality. He responded by urging prayer
for workers in the harvest! People need to know the loving Creator who wants
to bring joy, hope, and peace to their lives. "He has anointed Me to preach the
gospel [good tidings] to the poor...heal the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to
the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, set at liberty...oppressed" (Lu.
4:18).
Dare we deprive the hurting, brokenhearted, captives, blind, and oppressed
of the abundant life Christ paid so dearly to give them? Think back a
moment to what your life was like without knowing God. Did your life have
202 Hope Beyond Hell
meaning and purpose? How did you handle the idea of your approaching
death or that of your loved ones? Do you want to go back to that? What a
depressing thought to think this life may be all there is. It is anchored in the
heart of man the desire to live forever. Everyone needs hope, peace, joy, and a
future to look forward to. Christ exhorts us to not let our hearts be troubled
because He goes to prepare a place for us! We need to reach out to all around
us with troubled hearts! "Blessed be the Father of mercies and God of all
comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation that we may be able to comfort
those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are
comforted by God" (2Co. 1:3, 5).
The fear of death is the greatest curse this world has ever known. No person
born is spared this lifelong bondage (He. 2:15). How can we be fulfilled in
our daily walk with Christ if we do not embody His compassion for the
multitudes hurting all around us? They may not show it outwardly, but deep
down in their heart of hearts, the dreaded fear lurks...it waits...waits for an
opportune moment to remind them once again of their fate. What a curse! Let
us proclaim the Good News to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, and proclaim
liberty to the oppressed.
In summary, why evangelize? People are hurting; Christ commands us
(Mt. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15); and woe to us if we do not (1Co. 9:16; Lu. 12:47;
Ro. 14:10). Why should we need Christ's command or warnings to motivate
us? Should not His compassion in us be sufficient? At times the Holy Spirit
will lead us to refer to God's just and righteous judgments when presenting
the Good News as we sometimes see in Acts. We must be careful in so doing
that we do not compromise the "Good News." It must always remain "glad
tidings of great joy" (Lu. 2:10). "How beautiful are the feet of those who
preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things" (Ro.
10:15)!
5. If God Accepts Everyone in the End,
Let's Party!
Be warned, "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
(He. 10:31). "Do not be deceived, He will not be mocked; for whatever we
sow, we reap" (Ga. 6:7). "To whom much is given much is required" (Lu.
12:48. 10:29). Of how much worse punishment will one deserve who has
trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant (by
which he was sanctified) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace
(He. 10:29)? To take God's just and righteous judgments lightly, does
injustice to the blood of the covenant and will not go unaccounted. If you
are of this mindset, see Appendix II.
Appendix III 203
6. The Unrighteous Shall Not Inherit
The Kingdom (1Co. 6:9, Ep. 5:5)
The unrighteous, while in that state, cannot inherit God's Kingdom.
But they will not always be such. God will make them righteous. We too
were in their company, remember? (Ro 5:6, 10) Throughout the ages, God
will continue His transforming work in His creation until such a time as all
are transformed into the likeness of Christ. The key lies in the mystery of the
ages. God's plan for mankind will not fail.
7. What About the Rich Man and Lazarus?
(Lu. 16:19-31)
Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to
you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
(Lu. 16:26)
This passage is saying that while the chastisement is taking place, one
cannot up and leave at will. It does not say that once the last penny is paid,
there will be no release. For Christ says, "You will by no means get out of there
till you have paid the last penny" (Mt. 5:26). Rightly dividing the Word of
truth requires we compare Scripture with Scripture, line upon line, to arrive
at truth. We must not read and interpret passages in isolation from others,
especially the symbolic portions, like this parable. This leads to error, for one
part provides light on another. If you have a flawed concept of a key word
(Hades in this case) or theme (judgment), you will naturally read that idea
into the passage, and your understanding of the whole passage will be flawed.
The "fixed gulf" refers to a situation relative to a given period of time. If
a road has been covered with deep snowdrifts, we well might tell someone
who wants to drive through it, "You cannot cross over from there to us."
However, once the snow trucks plow the road, or the sun melts the snow,
the road is clear once again.
This parable does not contradict that Christ has the keys of Hades,
which signify He has the authority over it to lock or unlock it at will. "I have
the keys of Hades and of Death" (Re. 1:18). "He who has the key of David,
He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens" (Re. 3:7).
Neither does it contradict that Christ went and preached to the spirits
in prison who formerly were disobedient in the days of Noah (1Pe. 3:19-20),
and preached the gospel to the dead that they might be judged according to
men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (1Pe. 4:6). "He
ascended on high and led captivity captive, giving gifts to men. Now this
ascending means that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth
[Hades]. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the
heavens, that He might fill all things" (Ep. 4:8-9).
204 Hope Beyond Hell
Christ, having all authority and power, who holds the keys of Hades,
has Himself crossed the gulf, as Peter and Paul stated. Besides, even if He
had not already demonstrated this, is anything too hard for the Lord (Ge.
18:14; Jer. 32:17; Mt. 19:26; Mk. 10:26-27; Lu. 1:37; 18:27)?
With all confidence, the Psalmist could say, "God will redeem my soul
from the power of the grave [Sheol, Strongs #7585]" (Ps. 49:15). "You
brought my soul up from the grave [Sheol]" (Ps. 30:3). "I will ransom them
from the power of the grave [Sheol]; I will redeem them from death. O
Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave [Sheol], I will be your destruction"
(Hos. 13:14)!
Even if Christ lacked the power or will to cross the "gulf," (which is inconceivable)
it will be destroyed in the lake of fire, also called the second
death (Re. 20:14). Once Hades and Death are destroyed (1Co. 15:26), all will
be subjected to Christ that God may be all in all (1Co. 15:28). "O Death,
where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory" (1Co. 15:55)? But, if
most of humanity were locked in hell forever, Hades would be victorious.
8. Losing the Soul?
For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what
shall a man give in return for his life?
(Mt. 16:26 RSV)
The word "soul" in some translations is misleading because it conjures
up the idea of the "eternal spirit" thought to be forever lost in hell. A close
study of the Greek word, psuchē, will show that it is commonly translated
"life." The Jerusalem Bible translates this passage, "What, then will a man
gain if he wins the whole world and ruins his life? Or what has a man to
offer in exchange for his life?"
I think the idea of "ruining" one's life is more in tune with Christ's own
amplification of this passage in the following verse. "And then He will
reward each according to his works" (Mt. 16:27). To "reward each according
to his works" is a confirmation of the Blessed Hope, which acknowledges
that God renders to each person according to what they deserve, no more,
no less. The spirit of the passage is the same as Mt. 19:21: "If you want to be
perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven...." Here Christ is speaking of perfection.
With this in mind, I would say to lose one's life, means one is losing the
opportunity of living a perfect life, one that is fruitful. It is a great loss
because only through sacrificing oneself for God and others, do we find joy
and meaning in life. It is a great deception to seek after that which is only
worthless in the end. Jesus taught us to lay up treasures in heaven, and not
on earth (Mt. 6:19). These treasures consist of good works that bless others
(Mt. 25:44-45; Ja. 1:27; 1Jn. 3:17-18). This is the true wealth.
Appendix III 205
Bottom line: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may
have it more abundantly" (Jn. 10:10). If you seek to gain life's pleasures for
yourself, you are missing out on the abundant life Christ came to give you.
You are losing, or wasting your life. Does that mean God is going to throw
you out like a piece of trash? No! He will chastise you (according to your
works) like the loving Father He is. He, in His own way and time, will cause
you to learn the lessons you are destined to learn about life. It may not be
easy, but it will be fruitful. Read He. 12:5-11. Whatever else it might mean to
lose one's life, it does not mean God cannot or will not restore it in His own
"due time," in keeping with all His Blessed Hope promises, so abundantly
attested to throughout His Word.
9. He That Believes Not the Son Shall
Not See Life (Jn. 3:36)
Here is a more accurate translation of this passage as presented in the
Concordant Literal Translation. "He who is believing in the Son has life
eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but
the indignation of God is remaining on him" (Jn. 3:36 CLT). No one, while
in unbelief, is seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him.
This indignation, does not mean God is not loving that person, but the
contrary, it is an expression of His love working in that life to effect
change. For if this passage presented a hopeless scenario, then none of us
could have ever received salvation, for we all at one time were in unbelief.
"God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon
all"(Ro. 11:32 KJV).
10. Unpardonable Sin (Mk. 3:29-30)?
This is discussed on page 67, fourth text. The word "never" is not in the
Greek! Consider how the literal translations read:
♦ 'Whoever should be blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is having
no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the
sin'—for they said, 'An unclean spirit has he' (Mk. 3:28-30 CLT).
♦ 'Whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—
to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' because
they said, 'He hath an unclean spirit' (Mk. 3:28-30 YLT).
♦ 'Whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness,
unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin':
because they were saying—'An impure spirit, he hath!' (Mk. 3:28-
30 ROTH).
206 Hope Beyond Hell
11. Esau Hated (Mal. 9:13)?
This is a play on words similar to Christ's command to hate our family
(Lu. 14:26). Of course Jesus wants us to love our families, but in our heart of
hearts, our deepest love should be for God. This is hyperbole, something very
common in ancient biblical writings. God's hate regarding Esau relates to
something about Esau that is disliked in a greater way than what God dislikes
about Jacob the "deceiver." When God elects one over another, it does not
mean He loves them more, but rather He is delegating to them a greater
responsibility in His service.

[WhiteWings]

12. Better Had Judas Not Been Born?
The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to
that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have
been good for that man if he had not been born.
(Mt. 26:24)
This passage posed a real obstacle for me as I contemplated the Blessed
Hope. It did not take long to resolve however, once I dug deeper and found
that this is a mistranslation. Observe closely the difference in how the
following literal translations read. The Wycliff and Tyndale translations
read the same. The Revised Version of 1881 and the American Standard
Version of 1901 put in the margin "G00d for him if that man."
♦ The Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning
him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered
up! Good it were for him if that man had not been born (Mt.
26:24 YLT).
♦ The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written
concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of
Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were
not born (Mt. 26:24 CLT)!
♦ The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him. But woe to
that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better
for him, if that man had not been born (Mt. 26:24 Douay).
♦ The Son of Man, indeed, goeth his way, according as it is written
concerning him,—But alas! for that man, through whom the Son of
Man, is being delivered up: Well, had it been for him, if, that man,
had not been born (Mt. 26:24 ROTH)!
Appendix III 207
Consider how the Greek Interlinear presents it:
o <3588> {THE} men <3303> {INDEED} uiov <5207>
tou <3588> {SON} anyrwpou <444> {OF MAN} upagei
<5217> (5719) {GOES,} kaywv <2531> {AS} gegraptai
<1125> (5769) {IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN} peri <4012>
{CONCERNING} autou <846> {HIM,} [Christ] ouai
<3759> de <1161> tw <3588> {BUT WOE} anyrwpw
<444> ekeinw <1565> {TO THAT MAN} [Judas] di
<1223> {BY} ou <3739> {WHOM} o <3588> {THE}
uiov <5207> tou <3588> {SON} anyrwpou <444> {OF
MAN} paradidotai <3860> (5743) {IS DELIVERED
UP;} kalon <2570> {GOOD} hn <2258> (5713) {WERE
IT} autw <846> {FOR HIM} [Christ] ei <1487> ouk
<3756> {IF} egennhyh <1080> (5681) o <3588> {HAD
NOT BEEN BORN} anyrwpov <444> ekeinov <1565>
{THAT MAN.} [Judas] (Mt. 26:24).
German Bible Scholar and translator, A.E. Knoch wrote:
Dr. Leander van Ess, in his German version, renders it "for
him were it better, such a human were never born." In the
context immediately preceding, the identity of those referred
to is fixed beyond question. It may be set forth as
follows: Him = The Son of Mankind; That man = Judas
The (Son of Mankind) is indeed going away, according as it
is written concerning (Him). Yet woe to "that man"
through whom the (Son of Mankind) is being betrayed!
Ideal were it for (Him) if "that man" were not born!
If it had read "Ideal were it for "that man" if "he" had not
been born (as usually mistranslated) then both would refer
to Judas. But no unprejudiced reader of the English or the
Greek can possibly refer the Him to anyone but our Lord,
Who is so termed in the preceding sentence. But if all the
translations ever made rendered the passage incorrectly,
that would not prove anything except human fallibility.
The original speaks of the Son of Mankind as "Him" and of
Judas as "that man," and makes it clear that it were ideal
for Him if that man were not born.
The real cause of this mistranslation is the hardness of the
human heart. On the one hand, who has been concerned
208 Hope Beyond Hell
with the feelings of our Lord and His distress at having the
traitor in His company? Even His saints seem utterly unable
to sympathize with Him in this trial. On the other
hand, they have allowed a just indignation at Judas" dreadful
deed to degenerate into vindictiveness, and attribute to
our Lord the harshness of their own hearts. In judging Judas
they have condemned themselves.
The Scriptures show the utter helplessness of Judas. How
could he flee from his fate? Not only were the powers of
evil against him, but the powers of good were just as determined
to make him play his part. God Himself had determined
the role he should have. What can a mortal do
when Satan, Christ, and God all force him to commit a
deed so awful in his own eyes it drives him to desperation
and death?
It may help if I confess I once feared to face this issue. I
tried to find a way for God to get out of this dilemma. The
idea that He could make vessels for dishonor (Ro. 9:21),
and then punish them eternally was incredible. And I was
right. God could not do such a thing. My mistake was to
disbelieve God's plain statement and all the evidence which
sustains it in the Scriptures, because I had accepted a false
theology in regard to His future dealings with these vessels
which He fits for destruction. Because I now know God will
not only deal justly with them, but lovingly, I am able to
believe God, and glorify God, and exult in the God Who
remains Love, even when He hardens and hates.3
13. Seek...While He May Be Found (Is. 55:6)?
I think this is calling people to take God seriously now, and that they
need Him now. There is a sense of urgency about the present. It could also
be inferring that God deals with us for a season through grace, but if we
persist in resisting Him, a time will come when we will be judged during
which He is beyond our reach until this judgment has run its course. It does
not say a time will come when people will never be able to find God or that
He will not find them. We must guard from reading into the text what is not
there.
Appendix III 209
14. Knowing the Fear of the Lord, We Persuade Men.
(2Co. 5:11 NAS)
A friend quoted to me this passage in support of the idea that the motivation
for proclaiming the gospel should be the terror of everlasting torment
for those who reject the gospel. I asked him to examine closely the context:
Paul...and Timothy...To the church of God which is at Corinth,
with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia....
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
so that each one may receive good or evil, according to
what he has done in the body. Therefore, knowing the fear
of the Lord, we persuade men...(2Co. 1:1, 5:10-11 RSV).
Paul said "we must all" appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so
that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the
body. The "we must all" consists of believers. In his first letter, Paul said,
Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! (1Co. 9:16). This "fear" relates to
what they as believers would receive if they failed to preach the gospel.
15. Punished with Everlasting Destruction.
(2Th. 1:9)
Marvin Vincent, in Word Studies in the New Testament regarding
olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9 explained:
If olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation
of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios
is superfluous, because extinction is final, and excludes the
idea of duration....In this passage, the word destruction is
qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in
the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given
point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the
presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe
this severance as continuing during the millenial
aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as
being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and
characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as
characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding
the final judgment, the extent of which period is
not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as
everlasting...4 (See "Eternity" on my website for full quote.)
210 Hope Beyond Hell
If we cross reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, and its derivative olothrūo in
He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take
the extermination of the "first-born" of Egypt (He. 11:28). Were all these
innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? What do you think? Also,
though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we all know God will restore it in
the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has
He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)? (See also Inescapable
Love of God by Thomas Talbot page 104. See bibliography).
16. Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth.
Barclay wrote, "It was the eastern custom to use language in the most
vivid possible way. Eastern language is always as vivid as the human mind
can make it."5 (See also Allin's quote on page 33).
The following scene depicts a very serious disappointment for God's
unfaithful children, called "sons of the kingdom" in Mt. 8:12 and "unprofitable
servants" in Mt. 25:30. In no case, is it proven to be an eternal state. In
fact, the context indicates the contrary:
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the
prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being
thrown out. And they shall come from the east, and from
the west, and from the north, and from the south, and
shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there
are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall
be last (Lu. 13:28-30).
It is likely the ones thrown out are the very ones who came first but
were not ready. Perhaps they came without their wedding garment (Mt.
22:11-12)? Once their judgment outside runs its course, they will return as
the "first which shall be last." Note the compassionate heart of Christ in
what He says just a few verses further:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets
and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted
to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her
brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See!
Your house is left to you desolate [with weeping and
gnashing of teeth?]; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall
not see Me until the time comes when you say, "Blessed
is He who comes in the name of the LORD" (Lu. 13:34, 35)!
Appendix III 211
The Lord said they would not see Him "until" the time comes when
they say, "Blessed is He...." This is separation for a season, not eternity.
These who are left desolate are the "first" who are thrown out (Lu. 13:30).
Though thrown out for a time, the "first" will return as "last" (Lu. 13:30)
after they have paid the last cent and washed their robes (Mt. 5:26; 18:34-
35; Lu. 12:59; Re. 22:14). "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that
they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into
the city" (Re. 22:14). "Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell" (Ps.
86:13 KJV).
17. Cruel God
How do you reconcile the cruel God of the Old Testament with the
Blessed Hope? I believe Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the One
true God (He. 1:3). If the Father is seen as cruel in the Old Testament, it is
precisely because we do not know the Blessed Hope. Though God is seen
wiping out entire groups of people from the earth, that does not mean He
won't resurrect them again and see His ultimate purposes fulfilled in them
in the fullness of the times. Dr. Norman Geisler, president of Southern
Evangelical Seminary, has written, co-authored, or edited more than 50
books, including When Skeptics Ask and Inerrancy. He wrote regarding the
Canaanite and Amalekite cultures:
This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible
says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty,
incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by
fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate
the Israelites. God took action not only for the sake of
the Israelites but, ultimately, for the sake of everyone
through history whose salvation would be provided by the
Messiah who was to be born among them.
God's purpose in these instances was to destroy the corrupt
nation because the national structure was inherently
evil....Many verses indicate that God's primary desire was
to drive these evil people out of the land they already knew
had been promised for a long time to Israel. That way, Israel
could come in and be relatively free from the outside
corruption that could have destroyed it like a cancer. He
wanted to create an environment where the Messiah could
come for the benefit of millions of people through history.
Besides, under the rules of conduct God had given the Israelites,
whenever they went into an enemy city they were to
212 Hope Beyond Hell
first make the people an offer of peace. The people had a
choice: they could accept that offer, in which case they
wouldn't be killed, or they could reject the offer at their
own peril. That's appropriate and fair. Most of the women
and children would have fled in advance before the actual
fighting began, leaving behind the warriors to face the Israelites.
The fighters who remained would have been the
most hardened, the ones who stubbornly refused to leave,
the carriers of the corrupt culture....God is not capricious,
he's not arbitrary, he's not cruel...he is undeniably just.6
Is this not the way we would expect a just God to act to protect His
world? He had to establish a certain degree of righteousness on earth to
allow for His purposes to be fulfilled.
18. Why Would God Allow This to Be Hidden?
It has not always been so. It was well known and accepted during the
first 500 years of Church history when believers read the Scriptures in
Greek. Yet, it is true God veils truth from certain groups of people for
specific times and purposes. The Church was blinded to salvation by faith
for over a millennium until Luther. The adherents of the major religions of
the world have been blinded for centuries upon centuries. The Lord blinded
the hearts and minds of His audience from understanding His parables. In
the words of Andrew Jukes:
When have God's people as a body ever seen or received any
truth beyond their own dispensation? Take as an instance
Israel of old, whose ways, "ensamples of us," prefigure the
Church of this age. Did they ever receive the call of the Gentiles,
or see God's purpose outside their own election? A few
all through that age spoke of blessings to the world, and
were without exception judged for such a testimony:—
"Which of the prophets have not your fathers slain?" Was
God's purpose to the Gentiles therefore a false doctrine: or,
because His people did not receive it, was it not to be found
in their own Scriptures? The doctrine of the "restitution of
all things" is to the Church what "the call of the Gentiles"
was to Israel. Is Israel's path to teach us nothing? Are men's
traditions about God's purpose to be preferred to His own
unerring Word? But the path is not a new one for the sons of
God. All the prophets perished in Jerusalem. And, above all,
the Lord was judged as a Deceiver, by those whom God had
Appendix III 213
called to be His witnesses. The Church's judgment, therefore,
cannot decide a point like this, if that judgment be in
opposition to the Word of God.7
Mercy Aiken, author of If Hell Is Real, writes:
In the time of Christ most of Israel completely missed the
Word of God when He was in their midst. They were too
busy with their nose in the book, to perceive the Word
Himself as He came and dwelt among them! Certainly the
masses must have thought...."But none of the teachers,
Pharisees, or priests believe that Jesus is the Messiah! And
they know the scripture better than me!" That fact alone
kept many Jews from daring to believe in Jesus. To do so
was heresy and to admit faith in Him was basically asking
for scorn and rejection. We have been quick to point the
finger at the Pharisees, and not realize that we as the
church follow the same pattern today. Are we going to play
it safe and side with the majority, who are clinging to their
traditions and what their teachers have taught them, or will
we risk it all and step out and follow Him?8
Are we to reject the truth of the Blessed Hope on the grounds that it
has not yet been revealed to the Church in fullness? I trust God has His
reasons why He has allowed this to be hidden (Pr. 25:2). Strong evidence
reveals God is beginning to roll away this dark cloud from His Church in
earnest in our time. (See page 177, "Change on the horizon").
CONCLUSION
I do not have all the answers, but God does. Hopefully my answers will
be helpful, and in the very least, provide a model demonstrating how
perplexing passages can be approached.
It's amazing how critical one's prevailing paradigm is. If your paradigm
is the Augustinian view of eternal judgment, then all Bible passages will be
filtered through that mindset. It is not easy to make a transition in paradigm.
What has dominated our thinking all our lives is ingrained in us, and
the grooves run deep. We are not even aware how powerfully it governs our
whole thinking. Only through a committed and determined effort are we
enabled to overcome it. This can only come with God's help. I pray He works
it out in your life as He is doing it in mine.