Questions
Here are a few questions about the common Orthodoxy of Eternal Damnation.
• If some people will end up in eternal torment, is God unable or unwilling to save them? Logically, it must be one or the other. No tricky appeal to free-will can alleviate the tension of the question.
• If we determine our destiny by our free will, then is not our will stronger than God's will? How do we deal with passages as in Romans 9 that says we cannot resist His will?
• If some people will be tortured eternally, which is apparently the will of Satan, how is Satan a defeated foe? Doesn't eternal torment make Satan a partial victor?
• How can there be "no more tears" if some people will be tormented forever?
• How can we say that "His mercy endures forever!" if His mercy for us, in the most practical and real terms, ends if we do not choose to follow Christ before we die?
• Given the Bible's revealed standards of righteous and justice (which are clear and not mysterious at all), how is unending punishment just reward for temporary sin? Again, the Bible is clear on standards so saying "God's ways are not our ways" or "It's a mystery with God" is only an avoidance of a hard question. The question must be Biblically answered with justification from Scripture.
• If God "gives up" on those who do not choose Jesus before death, how does the parable of the 100 Sheep, with 99 found and the master leaving the 99 to find the one lost one, make any sense?
• Why does God give up on people after death?
• If eternal Hell is the price for disobeying God and living in Sin, why did God hide that from Adam and Eve and promise a different penalty? Why did God hide the most horrific fate possible, torture in Hell forever, from mankind for entire Old Testament period (probably 4,000 years)?
• How does the idea of Col 1:15-20 "restore All Things" (Ta Panta - The universal All in Greek) make any sense if some things are permanently and irrevocably isolated from and unrestored to God forever?
• Why must an omnipotent, omniscient God, who describes Himself as "Love", settle for not having everything that has ever been made love and worship Him? Why must He settle for a divided creation in which some live in abundant joy and others live in mind-numbing torture? Is God really that weak or does He want that kind of reality?
• Why do we think that our "will" is so absolutely free, when it is affected by every little thing around us and we rarely respond from thought alone, but often from instinct built in us from birth?
• How can God be "All in All" as Revelation states He will be in the end if All is not in complete harmony with Him and His character of love, joy, peace, etc.?
• Why did God create a place of unending torture in the first place?
• How is God glorified in unending pain that does not lead to being restored to righteousness and a loving relationship to Christ?
God is the Source, the Guide, the Goal of ta panta
I see the eternal judgements of God as a perfect work , till everything made is changed into GOD HIMSELF :HeartThrob:
and that would cover everything ever made by GOD HIMSELF . THE I AM THAT IAM . no ending nor beginning being SPIRIT the very Spirit of Life in and of Itself
no more death or crying or tears or pain or sorrow , no more suffering , no evil can be a part of GOD , though He did created it for His own glory, to be used up or perish in the using of it .
Amen! I am a big fan of logic ..from the root logos, afterall.. :thumbsup:
Logic conerning, 1 - God's character (love) ....2 - His attributes (all-mighty & perfect)
:thumbsup:
“It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God’s word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee.
God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory.
God’s tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled.” -Irene Lindsay-
It is the Year of Jubilee,
When the lame shall walk and the blind shall see
When the Lord sets the captives free
It is the Year of Jubilee.
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
Quote from: rosered on March 23, 2019, 03:41:57 PM
I see the eternal judgements of God as a perfect work , till everything made is changed into GOD HIMSELF :HeartThrob:
and that would cover everything ever made by GOD HIMSELF . THE I AM THAT IAM . no ending nor beginning being SPIRIT the very Spirit of Life in and of Itself
no more death or crying or tears or pain or sorrow , no more suffering , no evil can be a part of GOD , though He did created it for His own glory, to be used up or perish in the using of it .
Amen, sister! ...and there is / wil be, no mouning (tears)! :banana: So there will be no lost. Nobody to mourn.. No mourning done by anyone.
Quote from: FineLinen on March 24, 2019, 08:29:02 PM
“It is a great giant, this one called eternal hell! It can only be killed by the stone of truth taken from the running waters of God’s word. These waters have been running for a long time, but the stone to kill the giant is ready now.
God told Israel to set everything free in the year of Jubilee.
God is going to have a Jubilee in totality over all sin, all death, and all destruction in this world. This world belongs to God and it shall be restored and shine with glory.
God’s tapestry is unrolling bit by bit, and when it is all unrolled, the great Jubilee of rest for the entire universe will be unveiled.” -Irene Lindsay-
:thumbsup: Amen! And we know it is absolutely truth because the scripture says so. "A Jubilee over all sin, all death and all destruction" all ruin.. Rev.21:1-5; 1 Cor.15:27,28(22-28); 2 Peter 10-11,12-13. "Behold I make ALL things new.. no more death, no tears" (/mourning, no lost, nobody to mourn for, no condolences) "that God shall be all in all.. we expect a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness - rightness - LOVE/GOD - will dwell". And as we know, will openly reign..
.. :Chinscratch: does God work in outlines? so to speak.. Jubilees.. Holy Days.. the Temple.. the Mercy Seat.. all a huge outline..?
Quote
It is the Year of Jubilee,
When the lame shall walk and the blind shall see
When the Lord sets the captives free
It is the Year of Jubilee.
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
:dsunny: :banana: Amen! (I forgot what ta panta is, but I'll scroll up :gsmile: P.S., "the Greek universal all" :thumbsup: )
p.s.s. One word summary of UR - "all"
Hi FineLinen,
I thought of something else while reading your post on questions.
If Jesus death paid the price for all sin, what reason do people go to hell for? Are unbelievers still going to have to pay for their own sins by burning in hell? If hell is an unbelievers destiny wouldn't Jesus have to be in hell at some point to pay that debt?
So many questions. :dontknow:
CHB
Dear CHB: If I make my bed in hell, behold You are there.." There is no escape from Him as the Source, the Guide and the Goal. The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the identical polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Lord Jesus Christ.
"Now you must repent and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that time after time your souls may know the refreshment that comes from the presence of God. Then he will send you Jesus, your long-heralded Christ, although for the time he must remain in Heaven until that universal restoration of which God spoke in ancient times through all his holy prophets."
Universal restoration=
Apokatastasis =
From apo, "back again"
Kathistemi= "to set in order"
God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta
"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."
The risen Christ preaches to the dead
"Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water... for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Live=
Zao-
To live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
Active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
To be in full vigour
"Disobedient"=
Apeitheia=
The condition of being unpersuadable.
Obstinacy.
Obstinate rejection of the will of God.
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
"Disobedient"=
Apeitheia=
The condition of being unpersuadable.
Obstinacy.
Obstinate rejection of the will of God.
https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/another-introduction/13653/10
The questions that are presented should be the ones that hell believers should ask themselves concerning their beliefs. Of course God has to open the minds to understand these things.
Thanks for the questions you presented. :dsunny:
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 25, 2019, 08:28:21 PM
Hi FineLinen,
I thought of something else while reading your post on questions.
If Jesus death paid the price for all sin, what reason do people go to hell for? Are unbelievers still going to have to pay for their own sins by burning in hell? If hell is an unbelievers destiny wouldn't Jesus have to be in hell at some point to pay that debt?
So many questions. :dontknow:
CHB
Amen!
Quote from: FineLinen on March 26, 2019, 04:00:29 PM
Dear CHB: If I make my bed in hell, behold You are there.." There is no escape from Him as the Source, the Guide and the Goal. The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the identical polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen! And of course, the word translated hell (by medieval minded translators) is sheol which originally was -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm (reads right to left of course)
("
Whatever you find to do with your hands, do it with all your might, for in Sheol, where you are going, there is no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom." Ecclesiastes 9:10
And other verses saying all go there "all shall meet in sheol" and I think Isaiah 14 even describes sheol, or the pit, as being a bed of worms with a blanket of maggots/worms..
As we know, tranlsted to read "hell" - sheol, pit, hades, gehenna - what am I forgetting? Oh yes, tartarus (deepest darkness? but found its way into Greek legend? as a "place".)