Tentmaker Forum

"How I Learned to Pray for the Lost" [better:  for pre-believers]
https://web.archive.org/web/20160720023451/https://http://www.btmi.org/messages/other/ilearnedpray.html
Here is a remarkable testimony which should be of real help to many readers.
Since the nature of the testimony is personal, the writer requested that her name be withheld.
The letter accompanying this testimony says in part:

"This is the result of my search for the right way of praying for the unsaved.
I have found it to produce amazing results in a very short time.
After more than 20 years of fruitless praying, it seemed that there was no possible chance for my loved ones to ever return to the faith.
But after only a few weeks of the type of praying that I have outlined here I have seen them studying the Bible by the hour and attending every church service possible.
Also, their whole attitude toward Christianity has changed, and all resistance seems to be gone.
I have taken my place of authority in Christ and am using it against the enemy.
I have not looked at myself to see if I am fit or not; I have just taken my place and have prayed that the Holy Spirit may do His convicting work.
If each and every member of the Body of Christ would do this, what a change would be made in this world!"

Believers everywhere are burdened for unsaved or backsliding loved ones.
However, many are praying in the spirit of fear and worry instead of in faith.
This has caused me to seek for definite light on how to pray, feeling the need of praying the right prayer and also the need for a definite promise or word from God on which to base my faith when praying for the unsaved.
Praise God-- He never fails to give such needed help.

Perhaps because the salvation of some seemed to me to be an impossibility, the first verse of Scripture that was given me was Mark 10:27: 'With God all things are possible.'
The next Scripture verse had occupied my attention for some time, but it took on a new meaning:
'For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;
casting down imaginations [speculations] and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ' (II Corinthians 10:4,5).
This shows the mighty power of our spiritual weapons.
We must pray that all of this will be accomplished in the ones for whom we are concerned;
that is, that the works of the enemy will be torn down.

Finally, I was given the solid foundation for my prayers-- the basis of redemption.
In reality, Christ's redemption purchased all mankind, so that we may say that each one is actually God's purchased possession, although he is still held by the enemy.
We must, through the prayer of faith, claim and take for God in the name of the Lord Jesus that which is rightfully His.
This can be done only on the basis of redemption.
This is not meant to imply that, because all persons have been purchased by God through redemption, they are automatically saved.
They must believe and receive the Gospel for themselves, but our intercession enables them to do this.

To pray in the name of the Lord Jesus is to ask for, or to claim the things which the blood of Christ has secured.
Therefore, each individual for whom prayer is made should be claimed by name as God purchased, in the name of the Lord Jesus and on the basis of His shed blood.
We should claim the tearing down of all the works of Satan, such as false doctrine, unbelief, atheistic teaching and hatred which the enemy may have built up in their thinking.
We must pray that their very thoughts will be brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

With the authority of the name of the Lord Jesus, we must claim their deliverance from the power and persuasion of the evil one and from the love of the world and the lust of the flesh.
We should also pray that their conscience may be convicted, that they may listen and believe as they hear or read the Word of God.
Our prayer must be that God's will and purposes may be accomplished in and through them.

Intercession must be persistent-- not to persuade God, for redemption is by God, but because of the enemy.
Our prayer and resistance are against the enemy-- the awful powers and rulers of darkness.
It is our duty before God to fight for the souls for whom Christ died.
Just as some must preach to them the good news of redemption, others must fight the powers of darkness on their behalf through prayer.
Satan yields only what and when he must, and he renews his attacks in subtle ways.
Therefore, prayer must be definite and persistent, even long after definite results are seen.
And we must pray for the new Christian even after he begins to be established in the faith.

We will find that as we pray, the Holy Spirit will give new directions.
At one time I was interceding for a soul and began to feel that my prayers were largely ineffective.
Then the Holy Spirit inspired me to begin presenting that person to God in the name of the Lord Jesus.
As I obeyed this leading, praying, 'I present so-and-so to God in the name of the Lord Jesus,' I felt that my prayers were gradually becoming more effective.
It seemed that I was drawing that person from deep within the very camp of the enemy.
Then I was able to proceed as usual, claiming every detail of that life for God, using the power of the blood against the enemy.
This is true warfare in the spiritual realm.
Thank God that our spiritual weapons are mighty and that our authority in Christ is far above all the authority of the rulers, powers and forces of darkness, so that the Enemy must yield.
But it takes faith and patience and persistence.

Missionaries on foreign and home fields can resist the enemy in their districts, communities and schools by using the power of the blood of Jesus against the powers of darkness, sin and unbelief.
With the authority of the name of the Lord Jesus they can demand the enemy retreat.
Note that
'it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing' (John 6:63)
and that
'the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life' (II Cor. 3:6).
Therefore, we must constantly seek the motivation of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, in our faith, in our prayer and in our testimony.
It is most important also that we confess our own sins and have them forgiven.

The enemy will use every possible means to silence our intercession and to block our attack against him.
We must not only understand our enemy, our authority in Christ and how to use our spiritual weapons but also how to wear the armor that God has provided for our protection.
Thus equipped and protected, we need not have any fear.
But let us always remember that we have no power and no authority other than that of Christ.

'Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ' (II Cor. 2:14)
'Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world' (I John 4:4)

---L.M.

hat tip:
appendix in
Ed Murphy, _The Handbook for Spiritual Warfare: Revised and Updated_ (2003), 626pp., on 603-604
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Spiritual-Warfare-Revised-Updated/dp/0785250263/

 So what happens to those for which we do not pray?
IMO Christ paid for all: His faith ,not mine, or anyone else.

"The right way " is by Christ, not any man.
Each in their own time is specific. Man tries to do the work of Christ instead of stating what Christ has done.

"So what happens to those for which we do not pray?"
God will remind someone to pray for them, and somebody will pray for them.

"Christ paid for all"
Indeed.
And Christ will get everyone he paid for.

"Man tries to do the work of Christ instead of stating what Christ has done"
2 examples of those attempts by man?

Orthodox prayers for the dead
https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/orthodox-prayers-for-the-dead-modified/

 Romans 9:32
Romans 10:3
Romans 11:32
Then there are many who commend themselves :
2 Corinthians 10:18
Matthew 24:5
Matthew 24:11
Matthew 24;24
John 6:65 totally up to God

Amen! The testament.. It is done! One Holy Ghost effect, a moving and work of the Spirit/Presence of God, that the more we all believe it and pray it.. the more full knowing by every able to think and reason being.. The entire thing, ultimately (in a manner of speaking) is how do you create genuinely able to think and reason beings, aNd, keep paradise/perfection intact?
   God as Life lives through all that ever occurs, and endowed thinking and reasoning ability anyway! Life, and ?is perfect? so a dilemma arises!
   Did God know the one he assigned as - quote, covering angel over Eden - was about to go rogue?
See how (quote) - all in heaven and earth - are taking this unavoidable journey (through this all important contrast) all together at once..

So when I pray, I can (spiritually) take the testament with me.. :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Yes kind of a name it and claim it.. I heard of long ago from ECT brothers and sisters. (I knew a sister tried to name and claim a red lamborghini! lol! Even as a newbie believer I knew thAt wasn?t quite it! 

If a shepherd has 100 sheep, 1 of which is lost, would it be possible for that shepherd to be "happy" about the fact that 1 of his sheep is lost?

If a woman has 10 coins, 1 of which is lost, would it be possible for her to be "happy" about the fact that 1 of her coins is lost?

"I hate typing on a smartphone. You can get easily misunderstood"
One can "get easily misunderstood" using a computer, and using the telephone, and when speaking face to face.

It cost her much time/effort to get that lost coin, and it belongs to her, and she considers it valuable.
So she scours the house looking for it.

"God will be infinitely more valuable than any lost family member"
What value does a "lost family member" have? ($40k?)

"Why should you miss a family member who hates God?"
If I have an estranged "family member," I might miss him/her, merely because he/she is a family member, albeit presently estranged.

"Matt 25:31-46"
Where do you see "eternal"?

Matthew 25 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/matthew/25.htm
31 'And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory,
and all the holy messengers with him,
then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations,
and he shall separate them from one another,
as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand,
and the goats on the left.
34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand,
Come ye, the blessed of my Father,
inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat;
I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink;
I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me;
I was infirm, and ye looked after me;
in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37 'Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,
Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished?
or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received?
or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 'And the king answering, shall say to them,
Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren-- the least-- to me ye did [it].

41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand,
Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during,
that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat;
I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me;
naked, and ye put not around me;
infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44 'Then shall they answer, they also, saying,
Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 'Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

"Christ said that one should put him first before family"
If I do something (whether positive or negative) to another human being, did I do that action to Christ?

=====================================
"That depends on her. Not every person shares that intuition"
In Jesus' story, the woman with the lost coin scoured her house in search of her lost coin.

If a father has 2 sons, 1 of whom is lost, would it be possible for the father to be "happy" about the fact that 1 of his sons is lost?

"Yes, you can miss a family member but that does nothing to note that they perform evil deeds & must pay for their sins"
If a woman murders her child, can she ever "pay for" her sin of murder?

"No, you don't hurt Christ"
So if I punch somebody, I _didn't_ punch Christ?

Matthew 25:40 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/matthew/25.htm
'And the king answering, shall say to them,
Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren-- the least-- to me ye did [it].

"disobeying him has eternal consequences"
"Consequences" such as what?

"Are you saying that disobeying Christ is not important?"
No.

"punishment age-during to life-age during"
"Age during" isn't "eternal."

"If hell is temporary, so is heaven"
How so?-- what's the justification for that allegation?

"Does this mean that when a family member chooses to disobey God & chooses evil, should we love them more than God?"
No.
What value does a "lost family member" have? ($40k?)

============================
">>In Jesus' story, the woman with the lost coin scoured her house in search of her lost coin"
"You're misusing the parable to imply Universalism. The damned will not repent"
How did you come to the conclusion that "the damned will not repent"?
Did those people that Jesus preached to in hell repent?

">>If a father has 2 sons, 1 of whom is lost, would it be possible for the father to be 'happy' about the fact that 1 of his sons is lost?"
"If the son does bad things, the father can take satisfaction that he will serve his due diligence"
What's involved in "serv[ing]... due diligence"?

">>If a woman murders her child, can she ever 'pay for' her sin of murder?"
"Yes, through life imprisonment or the death penalty for her crime"
I don't understand.
What's involved in 'paying for' a sin?

"Are you saying that the woman should be let go?"
No.

">>So if I punch somebody, I _didn't_ punch Christ?"
"That's vague so I am assuming that you punched someone during a robbery attempt or punched someone with a malicious attempt, you didn't punch Christ"
If I visit a prisoner, did I visit Christ?

"Sentenced to hell for eternity"
Is God a sadist?
Do you think a murderer ought be "sentenced to hell for eternity"?

"The Greek word for eternal is used for both heaven & hell so if the latter is temporary, so is the former"
"Eternal" in English translations is a mistranslation of the Greek.
The Greek means 'epoch/ age,' or 'world.'

"Should a Christian obey & follow Christ when their family chooses evil?"
Yes.

"You're implying that one can't be happy that their loved one is in hell"
Was the father of the 'prodigal son' "happy" that his son was in a hell of the son's own making?

==============================
">>How did you come to the conclusion that 'the damned will not repent'? Did those people that Jesus preached to in hell repent?"
"The Scriptures. Those (including the fallen angels) that Jesus preached to hell will be damned for eternity"
Where in "the Scriptures" do you see that?
Do you agree with this?:

Philippians 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=NKJV
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death,
even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

"Those... that Jesus preached to hell will be damned for eternity"
Was Jesus' preaching in hell a total failure?

"The 4th Lateran Council teaches that the fallen angels will be damned for eternity"
Are that council's conclusions part of "the Scriptures"?
Did any council pronounce the longevity of the fate of damned humans?

">>What's involved in 'serv[ing]... due diligence'?"
"Prison time, stuff like that if you commit murder"
If an abortionist serves 35 years of prison time, has he 'served due diligence'?

"Are you saying that such people should not be punished?"
No.

">>'Yes, through life imprisonment or the death penalty for her crime' 'I don't understand. What's involved in 'paying for' a sin?'"
"Are you saying that people should not be punished for their crimes?"
No.
What's involved in 'paying for' a sin?
How can an abortionist who has committed numerous murders for $$$ 'pay for' his sin of murder?

"According to your theology, how long should they be released back to society?"
I think people who commit murder should serve varying lengths of prison time, depending on the circumstances of their crimes.

"So why ask questions about crime & punishment?"
Why not.

">>If I visit a prisoner, did I visit Christ?"
"That depends. If they repented, then you're ministering the Gospel"
Do you agree with this?:  'If I visit a repentant prisoner, I visited Christ; if I visit an _un_repentant prisoner, I _didn't_ visit Christ.'

Matthew 25 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/matthew/25.htm
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 ?And the king answering, shall say to them,
Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren-- the least-- to me ye did [it].

">>Is God a sadist?"
"You're begging the Q that sentencing people to eternal suffering is sadism. On the other hand, your God didn't even need all these sufferings to save everyone. He could have stopped the serpent from entering the Garden. If you take that story to be fictional you still have a God that allowed the sinful nature of humanity. Did God need the evils that happen in the world to save everyone? If you say yes, then he's a sadist, if no, he's incompetent. Your position is no better."

Re: "your God didn't even need all these sufferings to save everyone," what if any "sufferings" are needed "to save everyone"?
Re: "He could have stopped the serpent from entering the Garden," do you think God _should_ have prevented that entry?

">>The Greek means 'epoch/ age,' or 'world.'"
"Again, if this is true, then heaven is also of 'the age' i.e. it's temporary"
Would 'the _world_ of heaven' be "temporary"?

"You want Christians to disobey Christ's sentencing sinners to hell for eternity"
There isn't any "sentencing sinners to hell for eternity" in the NT.

">>Was the father of the 'prodigal son' 'happy' that his son was in a hell of the son's own making?"
"1) Once again. you're abusing the story to teach universalism. The damned won't repent"
How do you know that "the damned won't repent"?
Do you agree with this?:

Philippians 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&version=NKJV
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death,
even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

"2) How do we know that? The father barely has enough screen time"
Are you speaking of some church father?-- who is "the father"?

"3) Rev. 18:20 says that the saints shall take satisfaction that the wicked will be punished. Are you saying the Scriptures are wrong?"
No.
Do you think the "her" here refers to "the wicked"?:

Revelation 18:20 (NASB)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/18-20.htm
Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets,
because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

">>Philippians 2 (NKJV)"
"That doesn't teach Universalism. It teaches that everyone (including the fallen angels) will respect God in the end b4 some end up in hell, others to heaven"
Do "the fallen angels... respect God" right now?

James 2:19 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/james/2-19.htm
You believe that God is one.
You are doing well!
Even the demons believe that, and shudder!

">>Would 'the _world_ of heaven' be "temporary"?"
"According to your translation, yes"
There's no time parameter in "world of punishment," nor in "world of life."
If I say 'Joe crashed on his bike and is in a world of hurt,' I haven't said anything about exactly how long Joe will be hurting for.

Matthew 25
44 'Then shall they answer, they also, saying,
Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison,
and we did not minister to you?
45 'Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say to you,
Inasmuch as you did [it] not to one of these, the least,
you did [it] not to me.
46 And these shall go away to the world of punishment,
but the righteous to world of life.

">>If an abortionist serves 35 years of prison time, has he 'served due diligence'?"
"No, I prefer execution. Blood for blood"
Of these options, which do you most prefer for an abortionist?:
execution.
torture, then execution.
execution, then in the afterlife:  torture for an infinite length of time.
torture, then execution, then in the afterlife:  torture for an infinite length of time.

">>Was Jesus' preaching in hell a total failure?"
"Why does it need to be total failure?"
It doesn't.
Was Jesus' preaching in hell a total failure?

"why did Jesus even need to do that?"
Beats me.
Why?

"Why didn't he preach to those in hell during their earthly life so that they don't go to hell in the first place?"
Maybe he did, but they didn't listen while on earth.

">>I think people who commit murder should serve varying lengths of prison time, depending on the circumstances of their crimes"
"How much should be served to be considered 'enough'?"
For what crime, with what circumstances?

">>How do you know that 'the damned won't repent'?"
"Their will is tied to their love of sin"
If while in hell they come to hate sin, will their will be tied to their hatred of sin?

"how do you know the damned will repent?"
Because God loves everybody, and where necessary he chastises those he loves.

Hebrews 12:6 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-6.htm
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Proverbs 3:12 (New Living)
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm
For the LORD corrects those he loves,
just as a father corrects a child in whom he delights.

Hebrews 12:6?11 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2012%3A6-11&version=NIV
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
7 Endure hardship as discipline;
God is treating you as his children.
For what children are not disciplined by their father?
8 If you are not disciplined-- and everyone undergoes discipline--
then you are not legitimate,
not true sons and daughters at all.
9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it.
How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!
10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best;
but God disciplines us for our good,
in order that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.
Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

"What obvious factor will God use in the afterlife that he can't use in this life?"
For one thing, time is on God's side.
In humans' afterlife, God has a stupendous amount of time with which to work.

"What's preventing him from doing that right now?"
The human body's lifespan is very brief.
A human soul's lifespan in the afterlife is very long.

'>>Re: "your God didn't even need all these sufferings to save everyone," what if any "sufferings" are needed "to save everyone"?
Re: "He could have stopped the serpent from entering the Garden," do you think God _should_ have prevented that entry?'

"Why should there be any sufferings in the first place?"
There are sufferings because God didn't make robots in humans and in angels, but rather, gave them the ability to make choices.
Some angels and almost all humans have chosen poorly.
God is so powerful that He can (and did) give free will to God-created sentient creatures, which make a big mess of things, while ultimately God wins in the end.
Total victory.

"Are you saying that perfect love is required for someone to be raped?"
No.

"Are you saying that... perfect love requires that God should have stopped the serpent's entry?"
No.

'>>Do you think the "her" here refers to "the wicked"?'
"Yes"
Do you think the "the wicked" are referred to here in verse 18 and/or 19?:

Revelation 18 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/18.htm
18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim,
'Was there ever a city like this great city?'
19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!'

20 "Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you."

"The wicked will be condemned to hell for eternity"
Reference?

">>Do 'the fallen angels... respect God' right now?"
"Not only that. They fear God. Ask Legion"
Is this "Legion" a fallen angel?

">>There's no time parameter in 'world of punishment,' nor in 'world of life.' If I say 'Joe crashed on his bike and is in a world of hurt,' I haven't said anything about exactly how long Joe will be hurting for"
"The word 'age' was used to describe the time spent in hell as finite"
How long do you think an "age" lasts?

"the problem is that the same word was also used to describe heaven"
The Greek word 'aion' can be translated into English as "world."

============
from
https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm
165. ai?n ►
Strong's Lexicon
ai?n: Age, eternity, world, forever, everlasting
Original Word: αἰών
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ai?n
Pronunciation: ah-ee-OWN
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: Age, eternity, world, forever, everlasting
Meaning: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Word Origin: Derived from a primary root word meaning "continued duration."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - עוֹלָם (olam) - Often translated as "eternity," "forever," or "age" in the Old Testament, similar in meaning to "ai?n."

Usage: The Greek word "αἰών" (ai?n) primarily denotes an age or a long period of time. It can refer to the present age, the age to come, or eternity. In the New Testament, it is often used to describe the temporal world in contrast to the eternal kingdom of God. It can also imply the spiritual or moral state of the world during a particular age. The term is frequently used to express the concept of eternity, especially when describing God's eternal nature or the eternal life promised to believers.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the Greco-Roman world, the concept of "ai?n" was often associated with the cyclical nature of time and the ages of the world. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle discussed the idea of ages in terms of cosmic cycles. In Jewish thought, influenced by Hellenistic ideas, "ai?n" came to represent not just a period of time but also the spiritual and moral characteristics of that time. The New Testament writers adopted and adapted this term to convey the contrast between the temporal, fallen world and the eternal, perfect kingdom of God.

HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") ? properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant ? the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).

=========
"your translation says that both heaven and hell is temporary"
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away to the world of punishment,
but the righteous to world of life.

">>Of these options, which do you most prefer for an abortionist?: execution. ..."
"I prefer straight-up execution as stated in the OT"
Is "straight-up execution" better than:
execution followed by never-ending torture in hell for an infinite length of time?

">>God is so powerful that He can (and did) give free will to God-created sentient creatures, which make a big mess of things, while ultimately God wins in the end"
"Many times human beings go against the free will of other human beings. If a father watched his daughter getting beaten & raped by violent thugs & just stood there & watched, there would be a case of taking away his daughter from him"
I'll rephrase.
God is so powerful that He can (and did) give the ability to make choices to God-created sentient creatures, which made a big mess of things, while ultimately God wins in the end.

Romans 11:36 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/romans/11-36.htm
For from Him and through Him and unto Him are all things.
To Him be the glory to the ages! Amen.

">>Because God loves everybody, and where necessary he chastises those he loves"
"How would you know this?"

from
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-gods-love/
Romans 5:8 - But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 4:16 - So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us.
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
...
Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-- by grace you have been saved
1 John 4:19 - We love because he first loved us.

"God chose to create natural evil that would kill humans through diseases. Is that love?"
Examples of 2 of those diseases?

"why can't God pull that trick that he will use in the end to save everybody? Why not pull it now? Why wait?"
Details on what that "trick" is?

">>A human soul's lifespan in the afterlife is very long"
"How does this prevent God from saving everyone right now? Why not make his existence more obvious by burning a cross in the sky? That would make more people believe right now"
I don't know how come God doesn't give everybody in their life on earth what he gave to Saul aka Paul: a 'Damascus road' experience.
I also don't know how come God reserved to himself away from Baal only 7,000.

1 Kings 19:18 (NKJV)
https://biblehub.com/1_kings/19-18.htm
Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel,
all whose knees have not bowed to Baal,
and every mouth that has not kissed him."

">>Do you think the 'the wicked' are referred to here in verse 18 and/or 19?:"
"The context of the whole chapter is that the wicked will go to hell"
I take it that you think the "the wicked" are referred to in verses 18 and 19:

Revelation 18 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/18.htm
18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim,
'Was there ever a city like this great city?'
19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!'
20 "Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you."

">>'Meaning: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity'"
"Do you agree that the word eternal is describing the destinies of those who will go to heaven or hell?"
What's the context?-- what sentence(s) are you looking at?

">>Is 'straight-up execution' better than: execution followed by never-ending torture in hell for an infinite length of time?"
"Both are just"
You are perfectly OK with torturing people.
Do you also approve of torturing animals?

">>I don't know how come God doesn't give everybody in their life on earth what he gave to Saul aka Paul: a 'Damascus road' experience"
"That shows he's not loving. He's not giving everyone the same opportunity"
God gives different gifts and different opportunities to different people.
Do you think God is unloving?

">>Examples of 2 of those diseases?"
"Cancer is a good example. God chose to create a world where cancer inflicts people"
Cancer came into the world because of Adam & Eve's sin.
Jesus shows us what God is like.  Jesus healed people; Jesus gave his followers authority, and told his followers to similarly bring God's healing to people.

"Do you think God could make a world without cancer or stop cancer from existing in the first place?"
Yes.   E.g., God could have made a universe devoid of biological life, which would lack cancer.

">>Details on what that 'trick' is?"
"That trick that compels a sinner in hell to finally repent. Why can't God pull that trick right now?"
Do you believe that God compels sinners in hell to repent?

"Why is heresy the central argument?"
Of what?
Does the NT have any "heresy"?
Do you disagree with any of this?:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/07/76-bible-verses-to-support-universal-reconciliation/
9. "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach." (1 Tim. 4:9-11)

"Why interpret through a heretical doctrine? All mainline Churches have condemned Universalism as a heretical doctrine"
Do you consider the Eastern Orthodox Church a 'mainline Church'?
Do you see any "heretical doctrine" here?:

Gregory of Nyssa, "The Great Catechism" in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893), 482-5
https://books.google.com/books?id=pF9EAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA482#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205/npnf205.xi.ii.x.html
Chapter VIII.
....
But since there is a necessity that the defilements which sin has engendered in the soul as well should be removed thence by some remedial process, the medicine which virtue supplies has, in the life that now is, been applied to the healing of such mutilations as these. If, however, the soul remains unhealed, the remedy is dispensed in the life that follows this.

Now in the ailments of the body there are sundry differences, some admitting of an easier, others requiring a more difficult treatment. In these last the use of the knife, or cauteries, or draughts of bitter medicines are adopted to remove the disease that has attacked the body. For the healing of the soul's sicknesses the future judgment announces something of the same kind, and this to the thoughtless sort is held out as the threat of a terrible correction, in order that through fear of this painful retribution they may gain the wisdom of fleeing from wickedness: while by those of more intelligence it is believed to be a remedial process ordered by God to bring back man, His peculiar creature, to the grace of his primal condition.

They who use the knife or cautery to remove certain unnatural excrescences in the body, such as wens or warts, do not bring to the person they are serving a method of healing that is painless, though certainly they apply the knife without any intention of injuring the patient. In like manner whatever material excrescences are hardening on our souls, that have been sensualized by fellowship with the body's affections, are, in the day of the judgment, as it were cut and scraped away by the ineffable wisdom and power of Him Who, as the Gospel says, "healeth those that are sick." For, as He says again, "they that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick."

Since, then, there has been inbred in the soul a strong natural tendency to evil, it must suffer, just as the excision of a wart gives a sharp pain to the skin of the body; for whatever contrary to the nature has been inbred in the nature attaches itself to the subject in a certain union of feeling, and hence there is produced an abnormal intermixture of our own with an alien quality, so that the feelings, when the separation from this abnormal growth comes, are hurt and lacerated. Thus when the soul pines and melts away under the correction of its sins, as prophecy somewhere tells us, there necessarily follow, from its deep and intimate connection with evil, certain unspeakable and inexpressible pangs, the description of which is as difficult to render as is that of the nature of those good things which are the subjects of our hope.
....
He knew what was going to be, yet did not prevent the tendency towards that which actually happened. That humanity, indeed, would be diverted from the good, could not be unknown to Him Who grasps all things by His power of foresight, and Whose eyes behold the coming equally with the past events. As, then, He had in sight the perversion, so He devised man's recall to good. Accordingly, which was the better way?-- never to have brought our nature into existence at all, since He foresaw that the being about to be created would fall away from that which is morally beautiful; or to bring him back by repentance, and restore his diseased nature to its original beauty?
....
That man is the work of God, created morally noble and for the noblest destiny, is evident not only from what has been said, but from a vast number of other proofs; which, because they are so many, we shall here omit.

....by whom was man to be recalled to the grace of his original state? To whom belonged the restoration of the fallen one, the recovery of the lost, the leading back the wanderer by the hand? To whom else than entirely to Him Who is the Lord of his nature? For Him only Who at the first had given the life was it possible, or fitting, to recover it when lost. This is what we are taught and learn from the Revelation of the truth, that God in the beginning made man and saved him when he had fallen.

==========================================.
Gregory of Nyssa, "On the Soul and the Resurrection" in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893)
https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205.x.iii.ii.html
And I at once tried to repeat all the devices hit upon by their captious champions to upset the doctrine of the Resurrection.

She, however, replied, First, I think, we must briefly run over the scattered proclamations of this doctrine in Holy Scripture; they shall give the finishing touch to our discourse. Observe, then, that....
Now this passage from the Psalms runs as follows: "God and Lord hath showed Himself to us; keep the Feast amongst the decorators even unto the horns of the altar;" and this seems to me to proclaim in metaphors the fact that one single feast is to be kept by the whole rational creation, and that in that assembly of the saints the inferiors are to join the dance with their superiors.

....the race of man, on the contrary, on account of indwelling evil was excluded from the Divine precinct, but that purified with lustral water it re-enters it; and, since all the further barriers by which our sin has fenced us off from the things within the veil are in the end to be taken down, whenever the time comes that the tabernacle of our nature is as it were to be fixed up again in the Resurrection, and all the inveterate corruption of sin has vanished from the world, then a universal feast will be kept around the Deity by those who have decorated themselves in the Resurrection; and one and the same banquet will be spread for all, with no differences cutting off any rational creature from an equal participation in it; for those who are now excluded by reason of their sin will at last be admitted within the Holiest places of God?s blessedness, and will bind themselves to the horns of the Altar there, that is, to the most excellent of the transcendental Powers.

The Apostle says the same thing more plainly when he indicates the final accord of the whole Universe with the Good: "That" to Him "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father":  instead of the "horns," speaking of that which is angelic and "in heaven," and by the other terms signifying ourselves, the creatures whom we think of next to that; one festival of united voices shall occupy us all; that festival shall be the confession and the recognition of the Being Who truly Is.

">>What's the context?-- what sentence(s) are you looking at?
"Matt 25:41-46"
"Do you agree that the word eternal is describing the destinies of those who will go to heaven or hell?"
No.    '...into the world of fire... into the world of punishment... into the world of life'

Matthew 25:41
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-41.htm
Then will He say also to those on [the] left
Depart from Me those being cursed into
the fire the
166 [e] aiōnion αἰώνιον
the having been prepared for the devil and the angels of him

Matthew 25:46
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-46.htm
And will go away these into
punishment
166 [e] aiōnion αἰώνιον
the but the righteous into life
166 [e] aiōnion αἰώνιον

">>You are perfectly OK with torturing people"
"How are you defining torture"
torture
https://www.wordnik.com/words/torture
Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.

"& what does that have to do with animals?"
Some people approve of the torture of humans.
Other people approve of the torture of animals.
You approve of infinitely-long torturing of humans; do you also approve of the torture of animals?

"Are you saying that torturing someone briefly is okay?"
No.

>>God gives different gifts and different opportunities to different people. Do you think God is unloving?
"How do different gifts even matter when time in hell could be avoided?"
Different gifts make for different capacities to influence the world for good or ill.

">>Cancer came into the world because of Adam & Eve's sin. Jesus shows us what God is like. Jesus healed people; Jesus gave his followers authority, and told his followers to similarly bring God's healing to people"
"God could have prevented that cancer from coming into the world"
Agreed.  A God-made universe lacking biological life would lack cancer.

"God was fully aware that cancer would come into this world"
True.  God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and that all of sin's consequences would occur.

"Jesus didn't heal everybody"
True.  E.g., the crippled man whose healing is described early in the book  of Acts.

"The NT does not teach Universalism. Rather, you want to argue that the NT teaches Universalism when it doesn't"
What _does_ the NT teach re: the fate of 'the wicked'?

"the EO Church teaches that Universalism is heretical"
Reference?

"St. Gregory of Nyssa believed that Judas should perish for eternity in his book 'On Infants' Early Deaths'"
Do you disagree with any of the Gregory of Nyssa I quoted?
Does "perish for eternity" = annihilated out of existence?

I realized I can?t read All this.. no time, but I noticed a couple things as I scrolled down.. I think Jesus preached to those who were headed for judgment, i.e. the flood - imperfection is an abyss of potentiaL - mentioned in first book of Peter, is answered in 2 Peter - how ?Noah was a preacher of righteousness?. I think that's how Jesus went to them ?via the Spirit, while the ark was being prepared/built. That seems much more logical to me, as why would Jesus only go to them? If they were, alive/not really dead? And were in hell, which is the adversary?s very ancient fantasy and spiritual propaganda myth.. Surely life as we know it is - the - crucible. This entropy.. a gehenna, slow burn and fade away. Which came about because God is Life, and ?is perfect?.
    And about the ?afterlife? - which is actually after resurrection,  Jesus said, ?All those in the tombs/graves will hear God?s voice and will come forth? (from the graves/tombs) ?some into the resurrection of life? (into THE millennium, to serve called reigning? for to do His works.. crown of Life, not metal.. during his long second advent, a full scope version of his so brief first one?).. ?And some, into the resurrection of (the GWT) judgment? ?day? (Jn.5:28-29, part of his second advent) which elsewhere He calls agelasting correction [?kolasin aionion? oR ?korrection eonian?] Mt.25:46, logically, the completing of - ?drawing all? - Jn.12:32! And surely(?) it?s a same process of refinement/correction for all. The crucible being life as we presently know it - this unavoidable, all important contrast - until vivification either at 1Cor.15:52,53 or at Rev.21:5, 1Cor.15:24-28. (We shall have character that is clear as crystal. Humanity and creation sealed and saturated with God?s Spirit/Presence. The dis-ease as part of the cure? ..And immunity..)
  :Peace2:

I think the Lord?s long second advent, will be a full scope version of his first very brief one. Being -the- millennium, and the GWT judgment ?day?. And to serve and do His works during it, we need to go through the door alluded to in the ten bridesmaid?s parable, Mt.25:1-13. I think we are still in a (long to us) pause of Rev.7:1,3 with 9,4! But it?s all veiled.. first by the seals being described at the beginning of the vision as their full and entire effects, first to last.. Surely Jesus went from ascension to Rev.4? But I?m getting sidetracked.
    And I wanted to mention that I am firmly convinced that Mt.13:30, the tares gathered, is Rev.16:13-16, to Armageddon, whether literally or from afar, because the chain reaction will be global..? Isaiah 24:20. Seven thunders?
    I guess that?s the two harvests of Rev.14. The revelation vision is told three times. Father loves riddles? Middle version is chapter 12, but verse 17 needs Mt.23:39. The three tellings meet at the seventh trumpet.

   Oh wait! I wanted to mention. oh no, a couple more things.. I think it is SO important to realize the parable of the rich man and Lazarus - and the outside of the vision narrative of Revelation 22, portray INITIAL conditions of SOME during GWT ?day?. If they have ?died still in their sins?, surely they will rise that way? Othetwise, why is there a second vivification/made all new ? the first one occurs at the same instant as the first resurrection. But in Rev.21:5 Father God (Yhvh) says ?Behold! I make all new!?
     And that brings me to the last thing.. how the greek word, pas, which means ALL, has been changed by the translators into - all things whenever it wouldn?t sound silly.. Eph.1:10 - all to be gathered into Jesus. Jn.13:3 - the Father has put all in the Son?s hands.. and more. But not 1Cor.15:28 - that God may be all in all, or 2Tim.3:16 ?all scripture for training? because it just won?t work, lol. ?There was one more thing.. just now.. what was it? Oh! Just the other day (!) I realized two verses, I always skim over (lol) says ?all subjected and to be subjected to the Son? five times. And all had the word things inserted. 1Cor.15:27,28. Five times. Seven alls all together in the two verses.

"If the word eternal is meant to be understood as finite time in hell"
The Greek word 'aionion' can be translated into English various ways.
One way is as 'epoch/ age,' while another way is as 'world.'

"There's nothing to coerce anybody in hell"
Do you think that God doesn't coerce anyone in hell?

"What do animals have to do with human beings?"
Just as it's possible to torture humans, it's also possible to torture animals.
Are you OK with the torturing of animals?

"Do animals commit sin?"
No.

"How will hell be designed to bring about redemption?"
I don't know what exactly the methods are by which God gets good out of the sufferings experienced by those in hell, nor do I know how exactly God rescues those who wind up in hell.

"How will hell force the sinner to say 'uncle' & repent?"
Are you saying that occurs?

"God... can fix things but chooses to withhold gifts. That's not love"
Has God declined to give you any gifts?

"In fact, that's a malicious father & everybody would condemn him"
A human father is utterly incapable of giving every possible gift to all of his children.

"if God knew that A&E would sin & bring cancer & all sorts of evil, he wasn't loving to the coming generations that would suffer for A&E's sins"
Is that what you believe?

"The best thing to do was to stop A&E from sinning in the first place. There are so many ways that God could have stopped evil from coming to this world"
What are 2 of those "many ways that God could have stopped evil from coming to this world"?

"if Jesus is loving in your view, why didn't he heal everybody?"
While on earth 2000 years ago, Jesus was limited geographically and temporally.
He was physically incapable of bringing God's healing to everybody then living on planet earth.

"Isn't discrimination wrong?"
Maybe, maybe not.
What's a particular situation/ scenario?

"Should doctors choose to treat a set of patients & ignore the others like Jesus did?"
Who are some people Jesus and his 12 students did "choose to... ignore"?

"https://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-strange-theology-of-david-bentley.html"
What are 2 arguments in there you found especially-compelling?

"A Universe can have biological life & have no cancer"
How did you come to that conclusion?-- what's the basis for that allegation?

"It happens every time a doctor cures a patient of it"
If a patient is 'cured' of cancer, then there was cancer.
Your scenario doesn't demonstrate that it's possible for biological life to exist while cancer doesn't exist.
During DNA replication, cancer cells are constantly being produced.
Typically the body's immune system eliminates enough of those cells such that noticeable cancer doesn't develop. 
But those cancer cells do still get produced during DNA replication.

"why doesn't your loving God do the same?"
If a doctor does something that results in the elimination of noticeable cancer, then God acted through the doctor to bring about the end of that noticeable cancer.
Jesus told his followers to bring God's healing to people.
Very few followers of Jesus do that.
If most Christians regularly brought God's healing to people, then noticeable cancer wouldn't last long in the present world.
God hasn't failed, but rather God's people have spectacularly failed.

">>Do you disagree with any of the Gregory of Nyssa I quoted?"
"Yes"
Do you see any "heresy" in the Gregory of Nyssa I quoted?

"he said that Judas is condemned to hell for eternity. Does that sound Universalist to you?"
No.
Do you disagree with any of this?:

On Infants' Early Deaths
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf205.ix.iii.html#fnf_ix.iii-p34.1
Certainly, in comparison with one who has lived all his life in sin, not only the innocent babe but even one who has never come into the world at all will be blessed.
We learn as much too in the case of Judas, from the sentence pronounced upon him in the Gospels^1559;
namely, that when we think of such men, that which never existed is to be preferred to that which has existed in such sin.
For, as to the latter, on account of the depth of the ingrained evil, the chastisement in the way of purgation will be extended into infinity^1560;
but as for what has never existed, how can any torment touch it?--
However, notwithstanding that, the man who institutes a comparison between the infantine immature life and that of perfect virtue, must himself be pronounced immature for so judging of realities.
1559 S. Matt. xxvi. 24.
1560 εἰς ἄπειρον παρατείνεται.
Such passages as these must be set against others in Gregory, such as the concluding part of the _De Anima et Resurrectione_, in arriving at an exact knowledge of his views about a Universal ᾽Αποκατάστασις

=====================
"Under Universalism, God coerces everyone to repent in hell"
Reference?

">>The Greek word 'aionion' can be translated into English various ways. One way is as 'epoch/ age,' while another way is as 'world.'"
"That Greek word is used to describe both heaven & hell in the Matthew verse. So if hell if of epoch/ age"
Do you think 'epoch/ age' is the best way to translate into English the Greek word 'aionion' in Matthew 25?

"I am not okay with torturing animals"
While you _are_ OK with torturing humans.

"There was a better plan. God could have saved everyone b4 they went to hell. He could have given everyone the same St. Paul to Damascus moment while they live on earth. God's refusal to do that means that he wants to make people needlessly suffer in hell. Saying 'I don't know' is not an answer when there's an obvious solution"
Does your "obvious solution" achieve the same objectives as the objectives had by God?

"it's your argument"
Not that I know of.
What exact words of mine are you looking at?

"when a doctor is unable to cure a patient's cancer, does that mean that God did not want to heal that patient"
No.

"Imagine how many humans would convert if they saw Jesus or an angel healing them from cancer"
Imagine how many humans would convert if they saw Jesus' followers bringing God's healing power to disease and blindness and demonic oppression and missing limbs.

"Does Jesus need 12 students or any human being to heal people from cancer?"
A human must exist in order for Jesus to heal a human.
Who are some people Jesus and his 12 students did "choose to... ignore"?

">>But those cancer cells do still get produced during DNA replication"
"So this process is enough to overpower God from curing cancer?"
No.

">>Do you see any "heresy" in the Gregory of Nyssa I quoted?"
"An individual father can make mistakes"
Do you see any "heresy" in the Gregory of Nyssa I quoted?

"the 5th Ecumenical Council condemns Universalism as heresy"
Reference?

Karl Falken, _The Ultimate Question: A Revelation by a Servant of the King_ (2023, large print edition), 193pp., on 69-70 in Chapter 9, Face-to-Face with Christ
https://houseofyefeth.com/product/the-ultimate-question/
...Christ... showed me that through obedience to God, anything is possible within God's will.
One point I will always remember with surprise and shame was that the Church could have won the entire world for Christ in any generation, from the time of the apostles to our present age.
Only laziness, selfishness, timidity, and unbelief (and mainly the latter) have held back the Church.

====================
Adherents of the never-ending-torture view are OK with torturing humans, yet even the Mosaic Law didn't involve torture.

https://search.brave.com/search?q=Punishments+in+the+mosaic+law&source=llmSuggest&summary=1&conversation=c0d8aedc016bdc582f5991
Punishments in Mosaic Law
Based on the provided search results, here is a comprehensive overview of punishments in the Mosaic Law:

Capital Punishments
Stoning: The ordinary mode of execution (Ex 19:13; Lev 20:27; Jos 7:25; Lu 20:6; Ac 7:58; 14:5).
Burning: Mentioned as a punishment for a priest?s daughter (Lev 21:9) and for incest (Lev 20:14).
Hanging: Possibly used as a mode of execution, but not explicitly stated in the Mosaic Law (Nu 25:4; De 21:22).
Sword or spear: Used as instruments of punishment, but not necessarily as a mode of execution (Ex 19:13; 32:27; Nu 25:7; Jg 9:5; 1Sa 15:33; 2Sa 20:22; 1Ki 19:1; Jer 26:23; Mt 14:8,10).

Non-Capital Punishments
Stripes: Imposed as a punishment, with a maximum of 39 or less (De 25:3; 2Co 11:24).
Imprisonment: Not explicitly mentioned in the Mosaic Law, but implied in cases where individuals were confined to cities of refuge (Nu 35:1-34).
Payment of sums of money: Fixed by the law (De 22:19,29) or left to the determination of the injured party (Ex 21:22).
Banishment: Not explicitly mentioned in the Mosaic Law, but temporary exile was allowed in cases of accidental killing (Nu 35:12-15).

Key Principles
Lex Talionis (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth): The principle of recompense or revenge was applied in many cases (Ex 21:23-25; Lev 24:17-22; De 19:16-21).
Gradation of penalties: There was no explicit gradation of penalties in the Mosaic Law, unlike in later Jewish law (Mishna, Sanhedrin 9:5).
No torture: Punishments in the Mosaic Law did not involve torture, unlike in other ancient nations (e.g., Egypt).
No infamy: Punishments did not bring infamy upon the criminal, unlike in other ancient societies.

Theological Context
The Mosaic Law was given to a holy nation, Israel, under a theocratic system.
The death penalty was not "binding" in every case, even for Israel.
The Mosaic Law is still instructive for Christian political and legal practice, but its application must be nuanced and contextualized.

Modern Relevance
The death penalty for murder is still considered just, as it was first presented to Noah (Gen 9:5-7) and is not specifically Mosaic.
The application of other Mosaic capital punishments to modern law is uncertain and requires careful consideration of the biblical context and modern societal values.
It is essential to recognize that the Mosaic Law was given to a specific historical context and was not intended to be directly applied to all nations and cultures.
Christians must approach the Mosaic Law with humility, recognizing its instructive value while also acknowledging its limitations and the need for nuanced application in modern contexts.

================
">>dunno-- how?"
"You tell me"
I don't know the answer to, "How will God make somebody repent in hell?"

"You're the one asserting that God's love will save everybody"
Am I "asserting that God" will make anybody do anything?

"does the epoch/age Greek translation also apply to heaven?"
What's the context?-- let's see that "Greek translation" in question.

"So you're not defending Universalism?"
I'm "defending Universalism."

">>Making an in-your-face appearance to every human would constitute obvious evidence to every human that God exists"
"So why doesn't your loving God do it?"
Beats me.

"Why not avoid sending people to hell in the first place?"
Beats me.
Do you disagree with any of this?:

Romans 9 (HCSB)
https://biblehub.com/hcsb/romans/9.htm
14 What should we say then?
Is there injustice with God?
Absolutely not!
15 For He tells Moses:
I will show mercy
to whom I will show mercy,
and I will have compassion
on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort,
but on God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh:
I raised you up for this reason
so that I may display My power in you
and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to,
and He hardens those He wants to harden.
19 You will say to me, therefore,
"Why then does He still find fault?
For who can resist His will?"
20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God?
Will what is formed say to the one who formed it,
"Why did you make me like this?"
21 Or has the potter no right over the clay,
to make from the same lump
one piece of pottery for honor
and another for dishonor?
22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath
and to make His power known,
endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
23 And what if He did this to make known
the riches of His glory
on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory--
24 on us, the ones He also called,
not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

"I am asking why your loving God discriminates when it comes to healing cancer patients"
I don't know what you're talking about.
While on earth, Jesus healed several blind individuals.
I have a friend who is blind.
Do you think Jesus is somehow discriminating against my blind friend?

"Why not heal everybody?"
And why doesn't God end world hunger by giving food to everybody every day, with manna in the morning, and chickens in the evening-- already cooked, for those who like their meat cooked.

">>Jesus did many miracles, and yet the religious leaders of the time almost-uniformly didn't believe in him"
"Yet, he was able to succeed with St. Paul. Why not perform that same miracle?"
With everybody?-- beats me.

">>I imagine it would involve preaching in hell, just as Jesus preached to people in hell"
"So you admit that Universalism is true?"
I say "that Universalism is true."

">>Jesus can't appear in front of a patient if there are no patients"
"Are you saying that there are no people right now suffering from cancer?"
No.

">>Did the person being prayed for harbor extreme bitterness and unforgiveness, while knowing that doing so was sinful?"
"Does that matter?"
It _can_ matter, and it has mattered in specific situations.

"children like Alexandra 'Alex' Scott who was prayed for & no healing. Why didn't God heal her?"
How practiced in bringing God's healing to people were the individuals that prayed for her?  (practically no experience, and no competency?)

"Does that child... 'harbor extreme bitterness and unforgiveness'?"
I have no idea-- I know practically nothing about 'Alex,' having just now heard about her.

"Why does your loving God even need someone to lack 'harbor extreme bitterness and unforgiveness' so as to heal them?"
On some occasions, God has healed people who had extreme bitterness and unforgiveness.
On other occasions, individuals refused to let go of their extreme bitterness and unforgiveness, despite knowing well the importance of forgiving, and they didn't get healed.

Luke 12:48 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/luke/12-48.htm
But the one who does not know
and does things deserving punishment
will be beaten with few blows.
From everyone who has been given much,
much will be demanded;
and from the one who has been entrusted with much,
much more will be asked.

What do you think is more important for a person:
getting rid of her unforgiveness, or her being healed of a severe case of arthritis?

">>Jesus gave to his followers all the power and authority needed to bring God's healing to any person needing a healing cure"
"So why does cancer still exist?"
Only a tiny fraction of Jesus' followers are active in bringing God's healing to people.

"Why can't those followers snap their fingers & make cancer disappear once and for all?"
They lack the requisite faith to do that.

Matthew 17:20 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/17-20.htm
He replied,
"Because you have so little faith.
Truly I tell you,
if you have faith as small as a mustard seed,
you can say to this mountain,
'Move from here to there,'
and it will move.
Nothing will be impossible for you."

">>Was Gregory of Nyssa a heretic?"
"No, he made a mistake before his teachings were declared heresy. Saints can make mistakes without being heretics"

"don't use him as a case for Universalism"
What if any flaws in his reasoning did you see?

">>What exactly did he say when 'he quotes the 5th Ecumenical Council'?"
"Press Ctrl + f and type ecumenical council. You will find it"
I'm still not finding it.
Maybe when I look at Hart's book he'll quote from the council.

https://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-strange-theology-of-david-bentley.html
...DBH not only disputes what the Fifth Ecumenical Council taught on universalism...

"you didn't read the links"
I recall seeing only 1 link.
How many links are there?
Your article gave a hyperlink to Gregory of Nyssa on Judas, which I quoted from above.
Do you think I came across that hyperlinked Gregory of Nyssa website _without_ going through your Father John link?

">>You are OK with torturing humans, yet even the Mosaic Law didn't involve torture"
"Some of the punishments you mentioned involve stabbing, burning & other stuff that makes humans suffer"
What verse talks about "stabbing"?

"Do you think bleeding to death or screaming while being burnt to death is not torture?"
Some people, e.g. in car accidents, have bled to death without there being any torture involved.
I imagine that people who died from stoning didn't die from bleeding to death, but rather died from head injuries.
Re: "burning" and "being burnt to death," do you believe God commanded burning alive anybody?

"I gave that link... to also show that St. Nyssa wasn't a Universalist"
Did he, like you, believe in never-ending torture?

">>I don't know the answer to, 'How will God make somebody repent in hell?'"
"So if you don't know, how sure are you that God's love will save everybody?"
Pretty sure.
Despite having no idea _how_ God made plants, I'm still pretty sure that God made plants.

">>Am I 'asserting that God' will make anybody do anything?"
"But God will save everybody due to his love. That's your argument"
God "sav[ing] everybody due to his love" doesn't necessitate God _making_ anybody do anything.

">>What's the context?-- let's see that 'Greek translation' in question"
"Does epoch/age apply to heaven in John. 3:16?"
John 3:16 can be translated into English as speaking of a "world/age of life."

Joh 3:16 (looking at interlinear of the Aramaic)
https://www.aramaicdb.org/index.php/searches/vertical-interlinear-search/list/13?resetfilters=0&clearordering=0&clearfilters=0
https://dukhrana.com/pecrapta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=John+3:16&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
so
For
loved
God
the world
even
d'lbrh [that to his-son]
only-begotten/ unique
he would give (it),
that whoever
he/ he who
will believe
in him
not
will be destroyed
but
will have
lh [to-him]
life
d'l-ai-l-m [that/of to the/a world/age].

"your loving God would prefer to make humans suffer in hell rather than do his best to make them avoid it"
In your view, God tortures people in hell for an infinitely-long length of time.

"Romans 9 is a good chapter for predestination where some are sent to hell & others are sent to heaven"
I'm not saying nobody goes to hell.

"Jesus healed several blind individuals. He didn't heal every blind individual. If Jesus appeared in front of your friend & healed him with cameras rolling, wouldn't that be good evidence that would drive people to believe in Jesus?"
Not really.  CGI and acting can make recorded footage look real, while it's still fake.

"You claim God is loving & yet, he does unloving things through inaction"
In your view, God tortures people in hell for an infinitely-long length of time.

"Does a child need to 'get... rid of her unforgiveness'?"
If she has that, it'd be good for her sake for her to get rid of it.
Might her unforgiveness be an impediment to her being healed?-- possibly.
I'd guess unlikely, but possibly.

"There are also many people who don't have bitter unforgiveness & they suffer"
True.

">>It _can_ matter, and it has mattered in specific situations"
"It's also *not mattered* in specific situations"
Agreed.

">>Only a tiny fraction of Jesus' followers are active in bringing God's healing to people"
"So you're saying that your God is so weak that even a tiny fraction of Jesus' followers can't snap their fingers & remove cancer from the face of the earth?"
That's on Jesus' followers.

"People prayed for her & she still died from cancer. Why didn't your loving God heal her?"
I bet she was poorly prayed for.
For example, praying while imagining that someone is sick with cancer works against the person being healed of cancer.
A large number of people praying poorly is inferior to a handful of people praying proficiently.

"Does that child have 'unforgiveness' in her heart?"
I know practically nothing about her, and have no idea.
Do you know?

"Sword or spear: Used as instruments of punishment, but not necessarily as a mode of execution (Ex 19:13; 32:27; Nu 25:7; Jg 9:5; 1Sa 15:33; 2Sa 20:22; 1Ki 19:1; Jer 26:23; Mt 14:8,10)"

==
Being executed with arrows isn't torture.

Exodus 19 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/19.htm
12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them,
'Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it.
Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death.
13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows;
not a hand is to be laid on them.
No person or animal shall be permitted to live.'
Only when the ram?s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.?

==
Being killed with a spear thrust isn't torture.

Numbers 25
https://biblehub.com/niv/numbers/25.htm
5 So Moses said to Israel?s judges,
"Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor."
6 Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand
8 and followed the Israelite into the tent.
He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman?s stomach.
Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped;
9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

==
This is murder, but doesn't sound like torture.

Judges 9 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/judges/9.htm
5 He went to his father?s home in Ophrah
and on one stone murdered his seventy brothers, the sons of Jerub-Baal.
But Jotham, the youngest son of Jerub-Baal, escaped by hiding.

==
This being killed or slaughtered with a sword isn't torture.

Exodus 32 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/32.htm
27 Then he said to them,
"This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says:
'Each man strap a sword to his side.
Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other,
each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded,
and that day about three thousand of the people died.

1 Samuel 15:33
https://biblehub.com/niv/1_samuel/15-33.htm
But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.

2 Samuel 20:22
https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/20-22.htm
Then the woman went to all the people with her wise advice,
and they cut off the head of Sheba son of Bikri and threw it to Joab.
So he sounded the trumpet,
and his men dispersed from the city,
each returning to his home.
And Joab went back to the king in Jerusalem.

1 Kings 19:1
https://biblehub.com/1_kings/19-1.htm
Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done
and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword.

Jeremiah 26:23
https://biblehub.com/jeremiah/26-23.htm
They brought Uriah out of Egypt and took him to King Jehoiakim,
who had him struck down with a sword
and his body thrown into the burial place of the common people.)

Matthew 14
https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/14.htm
8 Prompted by her mother, she said,
"Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist."
9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests,
he ordered that her request be granted
10 and had John beheaded in the prison.

==
"stoning people to death... Do you think it's not torture after watching this ->"
I didn't watch that, but I could imagine how stoning would be torture if the person being stoned wasn't knocked unconscious within the first few rock strikes.

"Using car accidents is an equivocation fallacy since they're intentional & not intentional"
I don't understand.
Are you saying that some car accidents are unintentional, while other car 'accidents' are very much intentional?

"Do you think someone who is stoned is having a good time b4 the head injury kills them?"
No.
I suspect that hardly anybody awaiting execution is having a good time,
while nobody undergoing execution has a good time while undergoing execution.

"punishment for a priest's daughter (Lev 21:9) and incest (Lev 20:14)"
"So yes, God says that people should burn a promiscuous woman or for committing incest"

Leviticus 20:14
https://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/20-14.htm
"'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked.
Both he and they must be burned in the fire,
so that no wickedness will be among you.

Leviticus 21:9
https://biblehub.com/leviticus/21-9.htm
"'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute,
she disgraces her father;
she must be burned in the fire.

I don't believe Leviticus 21:9 came from God.
I think it came from a priest trying to prevent his daughter from bringing shame to himself.

"St. Nyssa wasn't a Universalist"
Do you really believe that?

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2020/08/23/st-gregory-of-nyssa-teacher-of-eternal-damnation/
Indeed, from Nyssen's schematical _taxis_ (ordering of salvation for those perfect down to those who possess more evil than good) in _De Anima et Resurrectione (On the Soul and the Resurrection)_ and elsewhere, one gets the sense that he conceives that such purification of the exceedingly wicked could take _aeons_ of chastisement within that greater eschatological _aeon_.
And in fact, the second open ended fear of possible interminability is probably the point.
My paraphrase of Nyssen to this effect:

_It is best to live a long life and increase in virtue for the purpose of the benefits which come in the eschaton.
It is not ideal but is permitted by God in his providence that some die early in their infancy for the purpose of preventing some from becoming exceedingly evil (but there may be other reasons why he does this which I am unaware of!).
And worst of all is to become exceedingly evil.
For we know from the interaction of Judas and Jesus in the Gospel, that it is better to not have been born at all than to become as evil as Judas.
Because of how deeply evil has attached into the very being of such persons, the cleansing chastisement may extend into uncertain bounds (maybe forever)!
Thus it is shown that it is better to never have made it far in life than to become so abounding in wickedness._

Nyssen must, after all, be read in context of all of his other works.
And unless one can demonstrate that he shifted his views decisively on this point or, more absurdly, never believed or explicated such a notion, one should assume he is being consistent.
His many other statements, most notably in _In Illud: Tunc Et Ipse Filius (Concerning That: Then Even the Son Himself (will be subjected to the Father)_ (1 Cor. 15:28)) and _De Anima et Resurrectione_ demonstrate his doctrine of _apokatastasis_ most clearly, but there are even more beyond this.
...
Finally, the Greek text and my translation:
Greek Text ...
My Translation
Through Judas, we are taught from the voice of the gospel that on the basis of evil having been established it is better to have been entirely anhypostatic (ἀνυπόστατον; never made manifest).
For on the other hand, the depth of evil having become so deeply rooted, the cleansing chastisement (ἡ διὰ τῆς καθάρσεως κόλασις) is thus stretched out indefinitely.
But how can the one not having existed have pain (ὀδύνη) fastened to it?
And if someone should wish to judge the virtuous life against the infantile (life) and (those of) untimely (death) (ἄωρον), really such a one themself is immature (ἄωρος) submitting such a judgement concerning such realities.
...
For Nyssen, the cleansing punishment might even last for aeons for some portion of the wicked, varying according to the appropriate _taxis_/ordering.
And it does appear that he leaves the door open to the _theoretical possibility_ that it may never end-- probably for rhetorical effect-- even if he teaches elsewhere that it will come to an end in time.
However, the purpose of the pain, of the _kolasis_ or chastisement/punishment, is _katharsis_ or cleansing/purification.

Do you disagree with any of this?:

Blaise Pascal, _Pensees_ (1660)
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pascal/pensees.viii.html
"God has willed to redeem men and to open salvation to those who seek it.
But men render themselves so unworthy of it that it is right that God should refuse to some, because of their obduracy, what He grants others from a compassion which is not due to them.
If He had willed to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened, He could have done so by revealing Himself so manifestly to them that they could not have doubted of the truth of His essence; as it will appear at the last day, with such thunders and such a convulsion of nature that the dead will rise again, and the blindest will see Him.

"It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want.
It was not, then, right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men;
but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him.
He has willed to make himself quite recognisable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart, He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not.
There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

431. No other religion has recognised that man is the most excellent creature. ...

I don?t understand the point of these posts. I don?t know who is speaking or who is replying to whom.

Paul wasn?t seeking Jesus before his conversion. He was an enemy to the church at its infancy.

"who is speaking or who is replying to whom"
Above are portions of a Twitter discussion between me-- a universalist-- and a guy who isn't yet a universalist.

Effective praying via binding and loosing for self & others

Matthew 16 (NIV), biblegateway.com
15 "But what about you?" he asked.  "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Matthew 18
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19-20 "Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

John 11
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"
44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Matthew 6 (NKJV)
8 ... your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

Luke 6 (NKJV)
27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.
29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also.
And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.
30 Give to everyone who asks of you.
And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.
31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

=======================
Liberty Savard, _Binding and Loosing for Beginners_ (2010), 186pp.  On 16:
I've had e-mails and phone calls and letters crying, "I must be praying the prayers wrong!  They've turned everything upside-down and crazy.  My whole life seems to be blowing up!  What am I doing wrong???"

Liberty Savard, _Shattering Your Strongholds II_.  On 41-42:
Sherry...  began (in a store where one definitely felt constrained to tightly clutch one's purse or wallet) with a stubborn salesclerk who denied that he had shortchanged her by $10.  Frustrated, Sherry left her name and phone number and went home to spend the next few hours binding him to the mind of Christ.  The clerk telephoned later that day and told her that he had found her $10 and would she please come and get it.  I chuckle every time I think about that young man walking around all afternoon with the thoughts of Jesus Christ bombarding his mind.  Sherry was praying and coming up with some wonderful answers.  She bound neighbors who were attending a cult church to the truth, the will of God, and the mind of Christ.  Within a very short period of time, the neighbors started going to a Bible-based church.  Sherry bound a pastor's daughter to the will and purposes of God, a young girl who was quite ill and whose extensive medical tests had proved to be inconclusive.  Sherry later informed our class that this girl had gotten better right after Sherry began to pray for her.  Sherry was earnestly praying with the understanding she had and, most importantly of all, she was praying in full faith that Matthew 16:19 meant what it said: Whatsoever she would bind on earth, God would bind in heaven.  Answers came every time she prayed.  Her heart and her intent were to bring things on earth into alignment with the will of God in heaven.  Sherry was claiming her spiritual rights and the rights of others.  She received restoration and renewal by adding to her understanding one facet at a time.  Sherry now does do the loosing, too!

On 87-88:
I have prayed for years for backsliders who have known the Lord and then walked back into the world, blinded by the lies of the enemy.  I prayed and I trusted and I believed and I waited.  All prayers have a cumulative impact, for our prayers which are according to the will of God are never without effect.  But I felt there had to be some way to tap into the Word and use its power to affect these individuals more directly.  The Word says we are to do things like Jesus did, even greater.  Jesus didn't say He was only sent to pray and intercede, He said He was sent to set the captives free.  All of us know captives-- children, parents, friends, spouses, brothers, and sisters.  Isaiah 49:24-25 (KJV) says this:
Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?  But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
The same verses in the New International Version are worded like this:
Can plunder be taken from warriors, or captives rescued from the fierce? But this is what the Lord says: Yes, captives will be taken from warriors, and plunder retrieved from the fierce; I will contend with those who contend with you and your children I will save.

I have prayed to penetrate the spirit world and tear these captives free from Satan.  It was not until I began to pray in the understanding of binding and loosing that I really felt empowered to get backsliders out of Satan's grasp.  After binding and loosing, I have seen rigid people become flexible-- people who were hard to the Gospel, who had refused one word of spiritual help.  There was no possible way of approaching them on the level of flesh and blood.  The battle for these intractable souls had to be fought behind their backs in the spiritual world.
It is important to remember that we war not against flesh and blood.  ...  Now I have learned to battle with the real troublemaker in the spirit world.  This frees me from needing to point out where others are wrong and how they should know and do what God wants them to do.  Most of those I pray for have all been in church and heard the Word (I drug them there!), so I wasn't giving them unknown information.  But there are clouds of blindness affecting their spiritual vision right now.  I am far more dangerous to the enemy and effective for them by loosing the effects of that blindness and the stronghold thinking in their lives.  The prayers of binding and loosing are bringing them to the point where they can see the light for themselves once again.  The battle is on for many souls that I love, but none seem to be particularly aware or resentful of that.  They appear to think I have mellowed and accepted them the way they are.  Ha!  I have no intention of accepting any status in their lives until all of them walk into the kingdom of God.  I have made my declaration to the enemy and I have made my stand.  There will be no summit meetings, no negotiations, no treaties with him where my loved ones are concerned!

Liberty Savard, _Breaking the Power II_.  On 106:
I prayed for twenty years that my father would lose his taste for alcohol after decades of drinking.  Nothing happened.  Then I finally began to pray binding and loosing prayers for him, loosing the only thing I knew to loose at the time-- the reason for his drinking.  Within a few weeks, he declared that alcohol didn't taste good anymore and he poured a full bottle of Jack Daniels down the sink.

On 224:
I said in a small voice, "I bind my mind to the mind of Christ and I loose all of my wrong thought patterns, old beliefs, and wrong attitudes that set off this reaction.  Lord, you said whatever I would bind and loose on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven.  I believe you will fulfill that promise now.  Amen." 
The rage instantly dissipated, and I felt like a little tree after a tornado hit.  Then it hit again with increased force! I repeated my prayer with a little more conviction.  Again the anger dissipated, only to return in a few moments with one final thrust of power.  This time, I shouted the prayer out of the force of the faith welling up inside of me.  The anger was finally gone.

Liberty Savard, _Producing the Promise II_.  On x:
"I shared your concepts with my church family and begged them to start praying this way.  The results have been incredible.  We have seen marriages restored, people saved, mean bosses turned into pussycats, .  .  .  and on and on.  Every day someone calls to share another answer to prayer.  Faith is skyrocketing here because we are finally praying EFFECTUALLY!  Praise Him! ..."

On 176-177:
We have had testimonies come in from different parts of the world saying that praying binding and loosing prayers over people who had depression, fear, worry, schizophrenia, dementia, confusion, and other mental bondages, had produced great improvement and complete healing in many cases.  These prayers have been prayed in agreement with the loved ones by e-mail or phone, other prayer warriors, and with our International Intercessors.  We have received testimonies of whole families praying the binding and loosing prayers for loved ones in mental hospitals whose minds had been pronounced as beyond cure.  These same "incurable" loved ones walked out of those hospitals ready for life following the intense binding and loosing prayers that were prayed for them.

God has no investment in letting His people waste away in mental hospitals.  He gets no glory from His people being trapped within the bondages of their own minds.  But often these wounded minds are incapable of affecting their own breaking of the bondages.  This is why we need each other.  When a mind has shut down, that person is like a wounded soldier fallen on a battlefield.  Every one of us needs to be ready to put our own comfort, safety, and integrity on the line to get that soldier pulled into a safe foxhole while we call out for the greatest medic of all, Jesus Christ, to come and help.

=============================
a Liberty Savard prayer for shattering strongholds, modified

Jesus, you said whatever we bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever we loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.  In the name of Jesus Christ, I bind the bodies, souls and spirits of myself and those I'm praying for today to the will and purposes of God for our lives.  I bind our minds, wills and emotions to the will of God.  I bind us to the truth and to the blood of Jesus.  I bind our minds to the mind of Christ, that the very thoughts, feelings and purposes of His heart would be in our thoughts.  I bind our feet to paths of righteousness that our steps would be steady and sure.  I bind us to the work of the cross with all of its mercy, grace, love, forgiveness and dying to self.

I loose every wrong, ungodly pattern of thinking, attitude, idea, desire, belief, teaching, motivation, habit, behavior, argument, justification, rationalization, reasoning, logic, and every wrong mind/body agreement we might have had about wrong behaviors.  I tear down, crush, smash and destroy every stronghold protecting wrong things.  I loose any stronghold in our lives that has been justifying and protecting hard feelings against anyone.  I loose the strongholds of unforgiveness, fear, and distrust from us.

I loose the power and effects of wrong agreements from us.  I loose deceptions and lies and their effects from our minds, and I loose the effects and influences of any ungodly soul ties any of us have with other people.  I loose us from the influence of the kingdom of darkness and from misconceptions about ourselves, God, and others.  I loose any confusion and blindness from the god of this world from our minds that may have kept us from seeing the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  I call forth every precious word of Scripture that has ever entered into our minds and hearts that it would rise up in power within us.

In the name of Jesus, I loose the power and effects of any harsh or hard words or word curses spoken to, about or by us.  I loose all generational bondage, thinking and associated strongholds, I loose all grave clothes from us, I loose all effects and bondages from us that may have been caused by mistakes I or others have made.

Father, in the name of Jesus, I crush, smash and destroy generational bondages of any kind from mistakes made at any point between generations.  I destroy them right here, right now.  They will not bind and curse any more members of our families.

I enforce Jesus' binding of the strong man the devil, that we may spoil his house and take back every material and spiritual possession he has stolen from us.  I loose the enemy's influence over every part of our bodies, souls and spirits.  I loose, crush, smash and destroy every evil device he may try to bring into our spheres of influence during this day.

I bind and loose these things in Jesus' name.  He has given me the keys and the authority to do so.  Thank You Lord for the truth.  Amen.

When (the Father) Will Subject All Things to (the Son), Then (the Son) Himself Will Be Subjected to Him (the Father) Who Subjects All Things to Him (the Son)
A treatise on First Corinthians 15.28
by
Gregory of Nyssa
https://documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0330-0395__Gregorius_Nyssenus__A_Treatise_on_First_Corinthians_15-28__EN.doc.html
...  
Paul adds to this fact that as all have died in Adam, all will be restored to life in Christ.
Clearly does Paul here reveal the mystery of the Resurrection.
Anyone who looks at what results from the Resurrection readily sees its consequence, that is, the goal for which all men hope and for which they direct their prayers.

[M.1313] Here then is the object of our treatise.
I will first set forth, however, my own understanding of the text, and will then add the Apostle Paul's words as applied to my understanding.
What therefore does Paul teach us?
It consists in saying that evil will come to nought and will be completely destroyed.
The divine, pure goodness will contain in itself every nature endowed with reason; nothing made by God is excluded from his kingdom once everything mixed with some elements of base material has been consumed by refinement in fire.
Such things had their origin in God; what was made in the beginning did not receive evil.
...
It is time now to quote the apostle himself on these matters.
"For as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
But each in his own order:
Christ the first fruits,
then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father
after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
'For God has put all things in subjection under his feet' [a reference to Ps 8.6].
But when it says, 'All things are put in subjection under him,' it is plain that he is accepted who put all things under him.
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who puts all things under him, that God may be everything to everyone" [1 Cor 15.22-28].

In the last of his words [above], Paul plainly speaks of the nonexistence (anuparktos) of evil by stating that God is in all things and present to each one of them.
It is clear that God will truly be in all things when no evil will be found.
It is not proper for God to be present in evil; thus, he will not be in everything as long as some evil remains.
...
Paul shows, by the words quoted above, that God becomes all things for us.
He appears as the necessities of our present life, or as examples for partaking in the divinity.
Thus, for God to be our food, it is [M.1317] proper to understand him as being eaten; the same applies to drink, clothing, shelter, air, location, wealth, enjoyment, beauty, health, strength, prudence, glory, blessedness and anything else judged good which our human nature needs.
Words such as these signify what is proper to God.

We therefore learn by the examples mentioned above that the person in God has everything which God himself has.
To have God means nothing else than to be united with him.
Unity then means to be one body with him as Paul states, for all who are joined to the one body of Christ by participation are one body with him.
When the good pervades everything, then the entirety of Christ's body will be subjected to God's vivifying power.
...
Christ eternally builds himself up by those who join themselves to him in faith.
...
Subjection to God is our chief good when all creation resounds as one voice, when everything in heaven, on earth and under the earth bends the knee to him, and when every tongue will confess that has become one body and is joined in Christ through obedience to one another, he will bring into subjection his own body to the Father.
...
Paul says of himself that
"with Christ I am crucified.
It is no longer I who live,
but Christ who lives in me" [Gal 2.20].
If Paul no longer lives, but Christ lives in him, everything which Paul does and says is referred to Christ living in him.
...
Paul claims that the good works of the Gospel are not his; rather, he attributes them to the grace of Christ dwelling within him.
If Christ living in Paul works and speaks those things as a result of this indwelling, Paul has relinquished everything which formerly dominated him when he was a blasphemer, persecutor and behaved arrogantly.
Paul looked to the true good alone, and by it made himself submissive and obedient.

Once Paul has been subjected to God, he is brought to the One who lives, speaks and effects good things.
The supreme good is subjection to God.
This fact which occurred in one person [Paul] will be harmoniously applied [M.1324] to every human being "when," as the Lord says, "the Gospel will be preached throughout the world" [Mk 16.15].
All who have rejected the old man with its deeds and desires have received the Lord who, of course, effects the good done by them.
...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

And,

QuoteIt is not proper for God to be present in evil; thus, he will not be in everything as long as some evil remains.

Amen!!  :banana:

The translators, not quite able to believe? Changed all into all things whenever it wouldn?t sound goofy.. A good case in point is in those verses! Verses 27-28, part of which I used to always skim over, but where the scripture repeats, five, times(!) all subjected TO Jesus, translators changed into all things. BUT, same word, quote (vs.28) that God may be all in all, inserting the word things, would sound a bit strange.

Also changed all to all things in behold! I make aLL new! Rev.21:5, and in Eph.1.10 all gathered into Jesus and Jn.13:3 the Father has put all in the Son?s hand.. But! Not in all scripture for training, 2Tim.3:16.

I think the scripture is BURSTING with Christian Universalism/Universal Reconciliation. :dsunny: :cloud9:
:friendstu:

comments on
Why every Christian should be a Hopeful Universalist,
with a few light edits
https://youtu.be/Sb45WJnzk3k
...I can't relate with believing in a loving God who obliterates those who do not turn to him.
How is it possible, I ask you, that the God who declared that everything he created was good ends up helpless in the end, unable or unwilling to renew and restore those who have been marred by their fallen condition?
How does love and mercy factor in to the notion of destroying the very creatures he designed in his own image?
If Jesus declared "I am the resurrection and the life," and if the last enemy to be destroyed is death, how can death become the ultimate victor when all is said and done?
Life for a select few?
Death (annihilation) for the vast majority?
How purposeless! How wasteful! How loveless!
God loses in the end, then.
Sad, really.
But that's not the God I see in Scripture.

==
Some Christians argue that fear of Hell bring people into Christianity, and Universalism bring them out of it.
But for me it was the opposite.
It was the doctrine of eternal suffering that brought me out if Christianity.
Ten years later Universalism, or "The Restoration of all things" brought me back.

==
If... you believe that most of mankind will remain lost forever, then it would appear that the God you believe in, is weaker than Satan.
If Adam's actions gave death to all mankind and yet the actions of Jesus only saves a few, how can Jesus be the greater/better Adam?
Do truly believe that Satan has the power and ability to put a time limit on God's work?
Paul said that this is God's will; that no man should perish but all men come into eternal life and that all men come to the FULL knowledge of his salvation...
thy will, will be done.

==
I truly believe that all things are possible through God.
And that God will do his pleasure.
He will get what he wants.
I believe salvation is possible beyond the grave (in the 2nd resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgement and the divine lake of purifying fire).
I believe that God's work is not limited by some time-line, enforced by a being that God himself created.
I truly believe that God has shown me this truth.
Jesus is the savior of the whole world, especially for those who believe...
If any man's work be burned up, he shall suffer loss but he shall be saved as through fire...
It is for man to die ONCE and then face judgment...
For the Lord is King and rules the nations.
Both proud and humble together, ALL who are mortal, born to die, shall worship him...
His (God's) anger lasts a moment; his favor lasts for life...
The glory of the Lord will be seen by ALL mankind together...
And when I am lifted up, I will draw (drag) everyone to me...
And then I heard EVERYONE in heaven and earth, and from the dead beneath the earth and in the sea, exclaiming, the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power belong to the one sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb to the ages of the ages.

"original sin"
https://x.com/SimpleReasom/status/1879722995427705338
"Genesis 8:21
Psalm 51:5
Romans 5:12-21
Ephesians 2:1-3
Ecclesiastes 9:3"

Genesis 8:21 (NABRE, 1987)
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PA.HTM
^3 When the LORD smelled the sweet odor, he said to himself:
"Never again will I doom the earth because of man,
since the desires of man's heart are evil from the start;
nor will I ever again strike down all living beings, as I have done.

3:  [21] From the start: literally "from his youth."
It is uncertain whether this means from the beginning of the human race
or from the early years of the individual.

Psalm 51:5 (King James)
https://biblehub.com/psalms/51-5.htm
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Was King David Really Teaching "Original Sin" & "Total Depravity" in Psalm 51:5?
https://eitan.bar/articles/david-original-sin-psalm-51-5/
However, the interpretation of Psalm 51:5, as if speaking of Original Sin or Total Depravity, is a classic example of Eisegesis.
Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text in a way that introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases.
Eisegesis is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-contextual reading.
The word eisegesis literally means "to lead into," which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
When considered in context, Psalm 51:5 suggests that David was born into a sinful environment, a statement open to various interpretations.
There is nothing in the context that suggests the Calvinistic interpretation unless the verse is taken out of its context.
In fact, you have to be reading a Calvinistic translation to even consider it being about Original Sin or Total Depravity.

====
Where here do you see the concept of "original sin"?:

Romans 5 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/romans/5.htm
8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that,
in our being still sinners,
Christ did die for us;
9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood,
we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

11 And not only [so], but we are also boasting in God,
through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom now we did receive the reconciliation;

12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world,
and through the sin the death;
and thus to all men the death did pass through,
for that all did sin;
13 for till law sin was in the world:
and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses,
even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,
who is a type of him who is coming.

15 But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift;
for if by the offence of the one the many did die,
much more did the grace of God,
and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ,
abound to the many;
16 and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift,
for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation,
but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of 'Righteous,'

17 for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one,
much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving,
in life shall reign through the one-- Jesus Christ.
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation,
so also through one declaration of 'Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

19 for as through the disobedience of the one man,
the many were constituted sinners:
so also through the obedience of the one,
shall the many be constituted righteous.

20 And law came in, that the offence might abound,
and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound,
21 that even as the sin did reign in the death,
so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during,
through Jesus Christ our Lord.

=====
Where here do you see the concept of "original sin"?:

Ephesians 1 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/ephesians/1.htm
15 Because of this I also, having heard of
your faith in the Lord Jesus,
and the love to all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you,
making mention of you in my prayers,
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Father of the glory,
may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the recognition of him,
18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened,
for your knowing what is the hope of His calling,
and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what the exceeding greatness of His power to us who are believing,
according to the working of the power of His might,

20 which He wrought in the Christ,
having raised him out of the dead,
and did set [him] at His right hand in the heavenly [places],
21 far above all principality, and authority, and might, and lordship,
and every name named,
not only in this age,
but also in the coming one;
22 and all things He did put under his feet,
and did give him-- head over all things to the assembly,
23 which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all,

Ephesians 2 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/ephesians/2.htm
1 Also you-- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2 in which once ye did walk
according to the age of this world,
according to the ruler of the authority of the air,
of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh,
doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts,
and were by nature children of wrath-- as also the others,
4 and God, being rich in kindness,
because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even being dead in the trespasses,
did make us to live together with the Christ,
(by grace ye are having been saved,)
6 and did raise [us] up together,
and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming,
the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith,
and this not of you-- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;
10 for of Him we are workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus to good works,
which God did before prepare,
that in them we may walk.

=====
Where here do you see the concept of "original sin"?:

Ecclesiastes 9 (HCSB)
https://biblehub.com/hcsb/ecclesiastes/9.htm
1 Indeed, I took all this to heart and explained it all:
the righteous, the wise, and their works are in God's hands.
People don't know whether to expect love or hate.
Everything lies ahead of them.
2 Everything is the same for everyone:
there is one fate
for the righteous and the wicked,
for the good and the bad,
for the clean and the unclean,
for the one who sacrifices and the one who does not sacrifice.
As it is for the good,
so it is for the sinner;
as for the one who takes an oath,
so for the one who fears an oath.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun:
there is one fate for everyone.
In addition, the hearts of people are full of evil,
and madness is in their hearts while they live-- 
after that they go to the dead.

4 But there is hope for whoever is joined with all the living,
since a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead don't know anything.
There is no longer a reward for them
because the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate, and their envy have already disappeared,
and there is no longer a portion for them in all that is done under the sun.

=====
"you're saying that the Bible ISN'T inerrant?"
Not everything attributed in the Bible to God was actually said by God.

"how do you know which parts are true or not?"
Jesus came to show us what God is like.
Anything out of character for Jesus would be out of character for God.

=====
Everything prophesied in Matthew 24 occurred.
"Heaven and earth" passed away, and the New Jerusalem is currently in existence.

"you think:
NT was written in Aramaic"
The bulk of the New Testament, yes.

"Miracles still happen"
They do indeed.
I've personally seen a few.

"The Bible doesn't contain forgeries"
I imagine that many of the Psalms ascribed to David were never actually composed by shepherd/ King David.

"What are your 'core' beliefs/practices?"
I'm an old-earth, old-universe creationist.
I'm a proponent of Intelligent Design, and bash spontaneous generation views and Darwin's theory of natural selection.
I'm a preterist/ into preterism, and think that Daniel's prophecies, Jesus' Mt 24 prophecies, and most of the Revelation prophecies have already been fulfilled, before the end of AD 70.
I'm a universalist/ into universalism, and believe that while some people will experience a hellish afterlife, eventually everybody will return to God, at which point everybody will undergo continued theosis/ divination/ becoming more and more like God-- for an infinite length of time.
All dark/ fallen angels-- including the devil-- will eventually return to God.

Quote from: DavidFord on December 07, 2024, 04:39:31 PM
"So what happens to those for which we do not pray?"
God will remind someone to pray for them, and somebody will pray for them.

"Christ paid for all"
Indeed.
And Christ will get everyone he paid for.


https://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/orthodox-prayers-for-the-dead-modified/

yep..ALL will come in.

David: Seems you have read Liberty Savard.
I have read her books. I prayed all those prayers she wrote in all her books. Did that for a few years.
She does highlight the power of the flesh.
For me that did expose the concept of wrong beliefs, attitudes, behaviour.....
However, it was Christ who set me free: not me.

Have also been in the spiritual warfare scene.
The territorial warfare.
Ancestral strongholds.
Terrestrial  zone stuff.
That , for me,  was when I tried to be a warrior for Jesus.
The correction of my behaviour and beliefs has released me from the bondage of self righteousness.
Literally transferred from this kingdom into the truth of God's kingdom - not by works but by grace.

yes, many try to be warriors for Jesus....including me...now I've learnt to trust Jesus fully.

T. W. Manson (1893-1958), _The Teaching of Jesus:  Studies of its Form and Content_ (1935), 351pp., on 234-235
https://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Jesus-T-W-Manson/dp/0521091993/
https://archive.org/details/teachingofjesuss0000mans/
The result of this discussion may be summarised as follows.
The Kingdom of God is manifested on earth and in the present in the existence of human subjects who own God as their King, who look to him for protection, guidance, and a rule of life, who offer to him their absolute loyalty, complete trust, and willing obedience.
That is the ideal.
Wherever it is to any extent realised, there we have the Remnant.
...
Over against the Kingdom of God stands the kingdom of Satan:
and between the two kingdoms there is war.
...
The warfare against the forces of evil continues-- the Church is the Kingdom at war-- but the decisive battle has been fought and won at the cross, and the time must come when Christ shall subdue all enemies and hand over the Kingdom to God.