I started out posting this in the movies etc. section, but decided it really belonged here instead.
I'm currently watching a mini-series called Pillars Of The Earth, which takes place towards the end of the reign of King Henry I of England. One of the main characters is a corrupt (surprise) Catholic Bishop. It's interesting to see how many times the threat of eternal torment is used as a formidable weapon to control others.
While I don't know how historically accurate this mini-series is, I'm quite certain the way threats of hell are being used is right on the money. One villain who would be stopped by nothing else except for this threat, was just absolved by the corrupt Bishop, so the Bishop could have his way in the matter. Of course it's not really his way,because since he represents the Church, it's really God's will (wink wink).
It really illustrates the problem with the idea of mere men supposedly being given God's power to forgive sin or condemn people to damnation. How much more or greater control over others could one ask? The reason why eternal torment wasn't around the first four centuries of Christianity, is because it wasn't needed as a threat to manipulate politics and fiances.
This miniseries is really showing me why eternal torment was invented, by man.
I know the series, and I agree.
BTW it was a cardinal not a bishop :winkgrin:
Quote from: Brian on February 08, 2011, 12:15:47 PM
[It really illustrates the problem with the idea of mere men supposedly being given God's power to forgive sin or condemn people to damnation. How much more or greater control over others could one ask? The reason why eternal torment wasn't around the first four centuries of Christianity, is because it wasn't needed as a threat to manipulate politics and fi[n]ances.
:thumbsup:
Is there any evidence at all in Genesis to Malachi where there is a teaching of eternal damnation or eternal torment as the christian religion has and is teaching?
I don't think so at all micah. I believe the OT punishements were temporal, earthly - death, loss of blessings, etc. If eternal torment were a biblical doctrine, wouldn't you think it would have been important enough to have warned those millions of people about? :scratchhead:
The wages of sin is death.
Not ongoing torture.
:bigGrin: :thumbsup:
True but when you talk to those types of people, they respond with things like . ."Oh, so it's okay for God to murder women and children even, but sending someone to hell isn't okay?"
For me, you can come to the table with your proof, but until they see it from your perspective, what you think is evidence proving your case, they see as more of a twisting of Scirptures. So in the end, the verses prove nothing. It's a matter of the heart that changes the minds of men.
I'm not sure if its entirely about change of heart. What sane person thinks that torture for eternity is ok?
For them to believe that, would make them truly evil indeed and for them to be in the church :mshock:
I think its a matter of faith in God and overcoming cultural programming and language dificulties in the texts. Perhaps the original Hebrew writings were less poetic and more scientific, so that doctrines are far more accurate.
Another problem was that God typically used poetic inviduals to speak, too. Probably because poetic people are usually more creative and more in touch with the finer and spiritual side of life, more sensiitive to unseen things.
Poetic writings are not great at conveying truth, because everyone has a different message from it.
But perhaps it was the best that God could do through flawed individuals :dontknow:
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
I'm not sure if its entirely about change of heart. What sane person thinks that torture for eternity is ok?
Don't underestimate propaganda and social conditioning.
Did anyone watch "The Wave" aka "Die Welle" ?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
I'm not sure if its entirely about change of heart. What sane person thinks that torture for eternity is ok?
Apparently then there are a lot of insane people running around, many of them talking in internet forums. :laughing7:
Just in the past week I've seen several different people post saying that humans deserve to be tormented (tortured) forever, and it is only by God's grace that some are saved. (Of course they would include themself in the "saved" portion).
This was on youtube, CARM, and another forum.
Its quite likely they haven't thought their statements through fully. Many people have the belief of "I don't understand it or like it, but that's what the bible says", but there also seem to be quite a few that have come to the conclusion that "eternal torment is ok" (but not for themselves - LOL!).
Yeah, I found that comment a bit presumptuous as well TT. We can go around claiming people who don't beleive in UR are crazy. That is a good example of being judgmental. I'm sticking with what I originally put . . .soft hearts become receptive to not only truth, but willingness to change direction. Hard hearts are abraisive and very opinionated . . .and often destructive toward themselves and others.
Quote from: legoman on February 09, 2011, 09:34:06 PM
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
I'm not sure if its entirely about change of heart. What sane person thinks that torture for eternity is ok?
Apparently then there are a lot of insane people running around, many of them talking in internet forums. :laughing7:
Just in the past week I've seen several different people post saying that humans deserve to be tormented (tortured) forever, and it is only by God's grace that some are saved. (Of course they would include themself in the "saved" portion).
This was on youtube, CARM, and another forum.
Its quite likely they haven't thought their statements through fully. Many people have the belief of "I don't understand it or like it, but that's what the bible says", but there also seem to be quite a few that have come to the conclusion that "eternal torment is ok" (but not for themselves - LOL!).
:thumbsup:
Insanity - you said it.
I think we have to realize that there are actually many insane people running around - for as TT said, you have to be insane to believe eternal torture is ok. Certainly one must lose a certain part of their sanity to fully acknowledge and accept such a belief. It is impossible for our brains to fully comprehend and process what it means to be in infinite pain. FOREVER.
We see this insanity in the beliefs of WBC and others - they cut themselves off and declare that God hates everyone but themselves. We see this insanity when it leads a young mother to kill her 5 young children so they won't be tortured forever. We see this insanity when holy wars are waged between Muslims & Christians.
We even see this insanity in the confusion of a thousand different doctrines, all proclaiming you have to do certain things or say the right prayer or you will be forever lost. If God meant salvation to be clear - there wouldn't be a thousand different doctrines.
Insanity is right.
Quote from: thinktank on February 09, 2011, 08:59:35 PM
Another problem was that God typically used poetic individuals to speak, too. Probably because poetic people are usually more creative and more in touch with the finer and spiritual side of life, more sensitive to unseen things.
One of those individuals was His own Son who said He only speaks in parables so most don't understand.
Ain't that weird. After 6000 year of misinterpretation of the OT Father sends His Son the ultimate teacher.
And that teacher uses riddles.
Erm... :dunno2:
Quote from: Brian on February 08, 2011, 12:15:47 PM
I started out posting this in the movies etc. section, but decided it really belonged here instead.
I'm currently watching a mini-series called Pillars Of The Earth, which takes place towards the end of the reign of King Henry I of England. One of the main characters is a corrupt (surprise) Catholic Bishop. It's interesting to see how many times the threat of eternal torment is used as a formidable weapon to control others.
While I don't know how historically accurate this mini-series is, I'm quite certain the way threats of hell are being used is right on the money. One villain who would be stopped by nothing else except for this threat, was just absolved by the corrupt Bishop, so the Bishop could have his way in the matter. Of course it's not really his way,because since he represents the Church, it's really God's will (wink wink).
It really illustrates the problem with the idea of mere men supposedly being given God's power to forgive sin or condemn people to damnation. How much more or greater control over others could one ask? The reason why eternal torment wasn't around the first four centuries of Christianity, is because it wasn't needed as a threat to manipulate politics and fiances.
This miniseries is really showing me why eternal torment was invented, by man.
You are right: eternal damnation is the ultimate power trip. Through the threat of eternal hell, the church was able to control mighty armies without lifting a sword.
Quote from: Nathan on February 09, 2011, 10:44:01 PM
Yeah, I found that comment a bit presumptuous as well TT. We can go around claiming people who don't beleive in UR are crazy. That is a good example of being judgmental. I'm sticking with what I originally put . . .soft hearts become receptive to not only truth, but willingness to change direction. Hard hearts are abraisive and very opinionated . . .and often destructive toward themselves and others.
I am merely stating an established belief or fact, that most people Christian, ET christian and world, believe that if Hitler or the SS for example tortured people, they would say they were insane.
Your however saying that people like ETists are so hard hearted they actually have this belief of ET in their hearts. I'm saying they must truly be evil and a lot of evil people in the christian world if they did have this belief in this heart, something that is already established in society, including the world, that torture is wrong.
Your however judging ETist by saying it is not their doctrines, or cultural programming, lack of knowledge, fear etc, but that they have wicked hearts because they believe torturing people for eternity is acceptable. There might be a few individuals in the church who have not developed the moral capacity to have empathy for people, maybe they had a tramatic childhood, or something evil happened to them, or they are just wicked in general, or possibly something else, but that does not mean that all ETist need to have a change of heart, but more likely given the correct information.
# Isaiah 56:10
Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep.
A lot of people do sleep in church :icon_jokercolor:
Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.
1. John 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
John 21:17
The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.
I just don't think accusing them of being "insane" is really an appropriate term to use here. I'm sure you've been across all kinds of ET' types and I've encountered MANY who are not thrilled about the torture for those who don't believe . . .they have friends and relatives who were really good people . . .special people . . .but in their eyes, becasue those good and special people didn't know Jesus, they are now in torment forever and ever. They're not cold about it, it really sadden's them. But TO THEIR UNDERSTANDING . . .that's just the way God is.
I can't deem them as insane. I think they've been blinded, deceived, manipulated and misdirected . . .but I really don't think they're insane. They don't "want" to beleive all their friends and family are in hell, but that's what they've been taught and as of right now, they just can't see God in any other light.
I think THE BELIEF is insanity, but those who are bound by it aren't insane themselves, their just bound.
And for me . . .for one who's insane is one who's lost the control of their mind . . .And when dealing with spiritual matters, being insane is really the gateway into spiritual truths because it means my mind is no longer in control. So if anyone is to be called insane . . .let it be me.
Nathan, it's insane you just said what I said :laughing7:
I think the most insane here is the loop de loop conversation :laughing7:
But it's through insane conversations like this that sometimes we understand where the other is coming from. It may have taken a longer route to get there, but eventually it is sorted out.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 12:22:05 PM
I know the series, and I agree.
BTW it was a cardinal not a bishop :winkgrin:
He was a Bishop at the time I posted. He later got promoted to Cardinal.
My pastor for the last 2 1/2 years is pro eternal torment and anti universalism. He sincerely believes that the "weight of Scripture" teaches eternal torment. And I don't hold that against him. He is a very good teacher. When it comes to what being a Christian is all about, he's right on the money in my opinion. I'd compare his teaching to that of Charles Stanley, just to give you an idea of his teaching style. I really like to be taught by Stanley as well. And the sad thing is, I can see in his eyes, that like most lovers of God who sincerely believe that's what the Bible teaches, he doesn't like it. That it distresses him.
Now my pastor doesn't say much about ET or UR for the most part. But having been with him a long time, I know his opinion regarding both doctrines. Unlike Stanley's church, we're a very small fellowship. And I consider my pastor to be an actual personal friend. What's ironic to me, is his having once been a Catholic, he's very anti Catholicism. To me it's more a matter of a mystery as to how someone like him, or Martin Luther, can come to realize the fallacy of Catholicism, but still retain this particular doctrine, rather than concluding that that individual is evil or insane or completely ignorant.
Evey single Christian I know personally, respect and love dearly, believes eternal torment it what the Bible teaches. And these are very dedicated serious studiers of the Bible. So it's impossible for me to take a negative attitude towards them regarding this. All I can do objectively and with certainty, is explore and see the origins of this doctrine and the teachings of original Christianity up to 400 AD. And that never seems to be something that's explored or taught in mainstream Christianity. Instead it's always approached philosophically and reading Scripture at "face value".
That's probably the main difference between me and them. I've studied the origins of the doctrine.
Quote from: Brian on February 24, 2011, 08:55:28 AMlike most lovers of God who sincerely believe that's what the Bible teaches, he doesn't like it. That it distresses him.
Now my pastor doesn't say much about ET or UR for the most part. But having been with him a long time, I know his opinion regarding both doctrines. Unlike Stanley's church, we're a very small fellowship. And I consider my pastor to be an actual personal friend. What's ironic to me, is his having once been a Catholic, he's very anti Catholicism. To me it's more a matter of a mystery as to how someone like him, or Martin Luther, can come to realize the fallacy of Catholicism, but still retain this particular doctrine, rather than concluding that that individual is evil or insane or completely ignorant.
Evey single Christian I know personally, respect and love dearly, believes eternal torment it what the Bible teaches. And these are very dedicated serious studiers of the Bible. So it's impossible for me to take a negative attitude towards them regarding this. All I can do objectively and with certainty, is explore and see the origins of this doctrine and the teachings of original Christianity up to 400 AD. And that never seems to be something that's explored or taught in mainstream Christianity. Instead it's always approached philosophically and reading Scripture at "face value".
:2thumbs: My dear deceased dad was that way. He told me "I don't want
anybody to go to hell". But he believed that's what the Bible taught. Later on in his life he was willing to consider some other possibilities beyond what he'd "always believed". :)
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2011, 09:38:40 AM
:2thumbs: My dear deceased dad was that way. He told me "I don't want
anybody to go to hell". But he believed that's what the Bible taught. Later on in his life he was willing to consider some other possibilities beyond what he'd "always believed". :)
[/quote]
Same here. Mine probably would've hit the roof if I told him I was considering universalism 20-30 years ago. But when I approached him with in in an email a couple of years ago, his response was, "believing in universalism doesn't save or condemn you". And, "this might sound heretical, but I believe a lot more people will be in heaven than most Christians think".
I never believed in it myself. I didn't have any theological etc backing on that. I just never believed in my heart that eternal torment was the truth. And I never even heard of Christian evangelical universalism until a couple of years ago.
One thing is for sure, Moses and Elijah never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they died, but that didn't prevent them from appearing at the Transfiguration.
One thing that worries me about Universalism, is people becoming basically anti-Christian in the process. They get into a position of hating and or despising all other Christians like Matt Slick of CARM. They harden their hearts towards their brothers and sisters in Christ. I got that way myself for a while. I got really hateful towards John MacArthur when I read his Calvinistic belief that God predestined some to be saved and predestined most to suffer eternal torment. But, then I heard him speak on YouTube, and realized he's struggling with certain things he believes the Bible teaches, but doesn't really comprehend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mleum3jZ1E
The poor guy is only human and made of clay.
I think a lot of pastors find themselves in a more honest place regarding their convictions when they're off the pulpit and as they grow older and wiser.
Believing in universalism shouldn't mean "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Just because most most Christians, real true Christians believe the Bible teaches eternal torment, doesn't mean that we can hate and or reject them, and still consider ourselves a part of the Body of Christ. To me it still remains a mystery as to why I was blessed with revelation that those whom I love adore and respect so much weren't. It is my great pleasure and a tremendous blessing to fellowship with them nonetheless.
Matt Slick is as much a part of the Body of Christ as Gary Amirault and vice versa. If that comes as a blow to someone who's reading this, then I don't think they've come full circle and I hope they don't stall out along the way. Satan will use anything to get you off track and steer you as far away from the Body of Christ (as Paul describes it) as possible. That's when universalism really does become a tool of the Devil.
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 05:45:44 AM
I don't think so at all micah. I believe the OT punishements were temporal, earthly - death, loss of blessings, etc. If eternal torment were a biblical doctrine, wouldn't you think it would have been important enough to have warned those millions of people about? :scratchhead:
Agreed. The wages of sin is death, not burning in hellfire for eternity.
John Chapter 3 Message translation
16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son.
And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.
Quote from: Brian on February 24, 2011, 02:23:09 PM
Quote from: jabcat on February 24, 2011, 09:38:40 AM
:2thumbs: My dear deceased dad was that way. He told me "I don't want anybody to go to hell". But he believed that's what the Bible taught. Later on in his life he was willing to consider some other possibilities beyond what he'd "always believed". :)
Same here. Mine probably would've hit the roof if I told him I was considering universalism 20-30 years ago. But when I approached him with in in an email a couple of years ago, his response was, "believing in universalism doesn't save or condemn you". And, "this might sound heretical, but I believe a lot more people will be in heaven than most Christians think".
I never believed in it myself. I didn't have any theological etc backing on that. I just never believed in my heart that eternal torment was the truth. And I never even heard of Christian evangelical universalism until a couple of years ago.
One thing is for sure, Moses and Elijah never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they died, but that didn't prevent them from appearing at the Transfiguration.
One thing that worries me about Universalism, is people becoming basically anti-Christian in the process. They get into a position of hating and or despising all other Christians like Matt Slick of CARM. They harden their hearts towards their brothers and sisters in Christ. I got that way myself for a while. I got really hateful towards John MacArthur when I read his Calvinistic belief that God predestined some to be saved and predestined most to suffer eternal torment. But, then I heard him speak on YouTube, and realized he's struggling with certain things he believes the Bible teaches, but doesn't really comprehend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mleum3jZ1E
The poor guy is only human and made of clay.
I think a lot of pastors find themselves in a more honest place regarding their convictions when they're off the pulpit and as they grow older and wiser.
Believing in universalism shouldn't mean "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". Just because most most Christians, real true Christians believe the Bible teaches eternal torment, doesn't mean that we can hate and or reject them, and still consider ourselves a part of the Body of Christ. To me it still remains a mystery as to why I was blessed with revelation that those whom I love adore and respect so much weren't. It is my great pleasure and a tremendous blessing to fellowship with them nonetheless.
Matt Slick is as much a part of the Body of Christ as Gary Amirault and vice versa. If that comes as a blow to someone who's reading this, then I don't think they've come full circle and I hope they don't stall out along the way. Satan will use anything to get you off track and steer you as far away from the Body of Christ (as Paul describes it) as possible. That's when universalism really does become a tool of the Devil.
[/quote]
I found your post here one of the most sincere and touching posts. I pray that we all walk in this atmosphere of true relationship that you have created here with your words. Your post had the earmarkings of what the "sound" of the Shepherds voice truly sounds like. Thank you for that.
Amen. Relationship over doctrine. We shouldn't allow individual beliefs to seperate parts of the body. I understand that it can be hard to love and fellowship with those who are willing to condemn us to hellfire as heretics. There are some unwilling to break bread with us because of our beliefs. But, in my mind that is between them and God. I am responsible for openly receiving all brothers in Christ.
Hi;
1 John 3;11 " Because this is the message which you have heard from the beginning- that we should be loving one another."
vs 14 " We know that we have passed over out of death into life because we love the brethren; he that does not love lives in death."
vs 18,19 " Dear children! let us be not be loving in word, nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth. Hereby shall we get to know that we are of the truth and shall persuade our heart before Him."
That love is a relationship demonstrated through our manner when with those around us.
Those that do not YET know that love, will see that love in their own time. We are to shine out the light of life by our demeanor and that is only possible in His strength for His glory.