Perception of Time (or lack thereof)

[Graph1159]

A lot of UR teachings seem to be a bit ambiguous about exactly what goes on in the ages of judgment leading up to the reconciliation of all. I have seen a couple UR ministers who proposed the Lake of Fire to be physical hellfire that would last for thousands of years. When I first came to believe in UR, I tended to think this way because I felt like I owed something to the Fundamentalists, but I have since moved away from this view, because it seems to put judgment and the finished work of Christ in contention with each other. No finite period of suffering could satisfy God's justice, and if Christ has died for everyone's sins, why should they have to suffer just for the sake of punishment? Thus, I find it most reasonable to say that the purpose of afterlife judgment is to destroy the sinful nature, thus enabling people to come to a point of repentance. But if that is the case, it seems that the Lake of Fire would primarily be spiritual rather than literal since the heart is the source of sin (Matt. 15:18).

So, then, what I have recently come to think is that, the Lake of Fire judgment may be analogous to a nightmare. When I wake up from a dream, I don't know whether I have been asleep for 1 hour or 10 hours (that's why I sleep with a watch on). During my dreams, I do not "feel" time passing like I do when I am awake.

In a similar way, the Lake of Fire could be the most nightmarish experience anyone could encounter, but even if it were to last for a trillion years, it wouldn't "feel" like a trillion years elapsed when people wake up on the other side.

What are your thoughts about this?

Samuel

[darryl]

sounds very plausible..after all, a day with the Lord is like a thousand years to us..time wont mean the same in the next world, I'm sure.

[Shev]

Yes Graph, I certainly agree that the Lake of Fire is not literal. Revelation is clearly a book of symbols (it introduces itself as such), and just because John saw a Lake of Fire, by no means will there be a literal lake, any more than there will be a seal of God visible on our foreheads, or a literal beast rising up from the sea.

Fire is a symbol for purifying judgment, and as for the lake, perhaps it was presented in this symbol for the vastness of the judgment, as the remainder of humanity is judged, pruned and purified?

One thing we do know, is that the Lake of Fire is something that can destroy Death and Hades, and a literal lake would not accomplish this. For how could Death and Hades even be cast into a literal lake? But the righteous, purifying judgments of God will indeed destroy Death and Hades.

[Lazarus Short]

I believe that the Lake of Fire, even being the second death, burns away only the dross of those tossed into it:  the chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble.  After death and the grave are also tossed in, the LoF MUST give up its dead, just as the sea did in its turn, for how can anyone be dead in Hell or the LoF after death is dead?  Our first hint is the burning bush which Moses encountered, which burned but did not consume the bush.

If we are unfortunate enough to be tossed into the LoF, it will go by quickly, except for the Demons.

[GodIsLove]

More and more I think of the LOF in the same vein as:

The burning bush with Moses
The pillar of fire in Exodus
The tongues of fire on Pentecost
"Our God is a consuming fire"
"I have come to cast fire upon this Earth"
"His eyes were as flames of fire" (Revelation)
"Saved through fire" (1 Corinthians)

I cannot believe that God would *do* anything to a person to make them have a nightmarish experience.

I think if there is pain it is spiritual and I believe we can all relate to feeling pain emotionally or spiritually but it causing us to grow in the end. It purges us of sin and makes us whole.

I think people are often purified through suffering NOW and that may even be part of being saved through fire.

My mom has ALS and over the past 15 years has lost her ability to speak, eat, or move at all except slight movements. She is bedridden and on a feeding tube and speaks with a computer.

But through her suffering (I can't imagine how nightmarish it is for her) she has changed and is being purified and is an amazing loving gentle soul who loves God and others. Not without some human flaws but I have seen the transformation.

We often don't know until after the fact that we will endure a hardship. If you knew when you were 5 what twists and turns your life would take, you might be fearful to go through with some of the things you had to endure. I know I would be shocked at some of the things that have happened in my life but I'm still here and am being made in His image and likeness through these trials.

If people suffer after death prior to being reconciled to God I believe He is dealing with them in the same way he has dealt with us all. With love and patience and never forsaking us even if our carnal mind tricks us into thinking He has left us. He is working with us all individually in the exact ways that are necessary to reconcile us to Himself.

[Dandelion]

I tend to agree with you, GodIsLove.

I believe God's foremost goal is always for us to learn from our experiences.

Experiences with others; in various situations, in which we would have choices to make and we would watch it unfolding and changing......like on earth.

The venues might be very different, and the sensory experiences, etc., but I do think that learning and growing would continue to be the basic gist of it all.

I believe, when we die, we enter into the time zone of eternity and are no longer tied to the time sequences that we are bound to, on earth.

My  :2c:

D.

[Shev]

Amen all!

It is said that "judgment begins with the house of God". To me, this implies that judgment is conducted in the same manner, just with a chronological difference. It begins with the house of God, and ends with all being in brought into that house.

[WhiteWings]

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

[Graph1159]

I think if there is pain it is spiritual and I believe we can all relate to feeling pain emotionally or spiritually but it causing us to grow in the end. It purges us of sin and makes us whole. I think people are often purified through suffering NOW and that may even be part of being saved through fire.

I agree and I have often thought that the afterlife could, in a sense, be thought of as an extension of this life. I find it reasonable to assume that the spiritual condition a person ended this life in will be reflected in their experience in the immediate afterlife. Perhaps, the reason the Bible doesn't say a lot about life beyond the grave is that, God wants people to focus on spiritual truths which apply to this life, and once those principles are understood, the spiritual principles of the afterlife can be naturally inferred.

[rosered]

Amen   to you all  :HeartThrob:

Thank  you for sharing your hearts thoughts   with us .  If no one here was willing to speak up and share  in  this forum   it would die .[ cease  to exist ]

Because there would be no LIFE in it   

I also believe  that it is our'' personal''  experiences  and how it does effect us .and these effect all of humanity   since the beginning  and   the Love of Life   found in them .

  We have the ability  to harden our hearts /thoughts  against God and one another  or  allow God to change them    thoughts of the heart   in the sense of Pharaoh a king over many ,  when God is dealing with us   though suffering and having compassion  on one another  in their experiences   , we could never know    unless we were  heightened and made aware of it     though our own suffering   though fiery trials   I do take the bible and its meanings much more personally now  .
Do it as unto the Lord  , as these examples have done and failed or have had   victory over sin.   Jesus being our  prime and best example   now and no more excuse   left  of ignorance /darkness  , We have the Light   within 

   I remember  the first time I read    that He hardened his own heart and than God  hardened it also   .

  This made  me wonder  deeply ''WHY''   ??    With all those plagues coming on them , by not releasing  , Gods firstborn   Israel  from   slavery  in Egypt  , a symbol
of the world , being the oldest  and  established   '  center  '' of building up  '' though suffering  in the lives of others

  and made me think  ,  Are we being a Pharaoh  building up our own little world / Egypt  by the suffering of other expense ?    has my own heart been hardened   against others   expense and sacrifices  , robbing them of joy  and putting hardships on them  for my own   ''selfish   need to be in control ''?   and robbing God of His true    ownership   over all mankind ?
And God allowing me to suffer    in the fiery trials   of not having my way  in this life , while all get to suffer though it  ,  a two edged Sword   cutting it both ways ?

I do believe that the Bible teaches us   though the experiences of others  , when reading about the   results of sin    or even the  now a days  Pharaohs , who have been given power    to rule   ''to some degree ''  others   lives  but abuse it .
   Bringing harm upon the innocent for the guilty  and they don't even know it yet

I agree we will know in the end    by a life review      ''How Love has made all the difference '''   or the lack of love    of what  kind of   heart  for God   we possessed


 

[Patinak]

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

WhiteWings, I had not seen the writings that you linked to before.  Lots of good stuff.  And since I had to go to your profile to find this thread (it was already off the "recent posts" column), I see that you are quite a young man. God has done well with you!

So I am wondering, does that link contain your own work?

Pat