Tentmaker Forum

Are we judged after we are dead?
Clarified, for those who believe or accept the belief that when we die(dead) and go to the grave; were those souls judged before they died?

When a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?
How many judgments are there?

Maybe this helps:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_die_then_judgment_9013.0.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_after_death_comes_judgement_9660.0.html

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Maybe this helps:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_die_then_judgment_9013.0.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_after_death_comes_judgement_9660.0.html

I Hate That! I mean I REALLY Hate that!!!!!! I mean I REally dooo HAte that!!! :eyebrow: I mean why don't have words of your own?
Why are you even doing this???

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Maybe this helps

Well, I do feel better :grin: :happy3:

Butt I just HAte that OOOOOOOOOOOOO I JuSt haTE it... :mblush: when He does that!!~! :mshock:

 :laughing7:

CHB

 :bigGrin:

You'll probably get more practice at hatin' it, cause it'll probably happen again from someone else.  It's a pretty common practice on discussion forums to reference past threads that may address in great (helpful) detail, a "new" question or thread.  So keep your hater handy.   :laughing7:

Also, in those threads listed, WW had quite a bit to say about the subject.   :2c:

Carry on  :angel5:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 08:51:02 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 08:32:49 AM
Maybe this helps:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_die_then_judgment_9013.0.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/hebrews_927_after_death_comes_judgement_9660.0.html

I Hate That! I mean I REALLY Hate that!!!!!! I mean I REally dooo HAte that!!! :eyebrow: I mean why don't have words of your own?
Why are you even doing this???

It took me a whole day to process this reply. I've never been accused of being silent before  :laughing7:

Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2011, 08:32:20 PM
:bigGrin:

You'll probably get more practice at hatin' it, cause it'll probably happen again from someone else.  It's a pretty common practice on discussion forums to reference past threads that may address in great (helpful) detail, a "new" question or thread.  So keep your hater handy.   :laughing7:

Also, in those threads listed, WW had quite a bit to say about the subject.   :2c:

Carry on  :angel5:

Sorry about using the word hate, the reply was meant to one of humor I'm sure you knew that. No as i have said hes a searcher, and appreciated :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 09:33:01 PM

Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2011, 08:32:20 PM
:bigGrin:

You'll probably get more practice at hatin' it, cause it'll probably happen again from someone else.  It's a pretty common practice on discussion forums to reference past threads that may address in great (helpful) detail, a "new" question or thread.  So keep your hater handy.   :laughing7:

Also, in those threads listed, WW had quite a bit to say about the subject.   :2c:

Carry on  :angel5:

Sorry about using the word hate, the reply was meant to one of humor I'm sure you knew that. No as i have said hes a searcher, and appreciated :bigGrin:

I thought it was funny   :wink:   

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 09:33:01 PM

Quote from: jabcat on September 15, 2011, 08:32:20 PM
:bigGrin:

You'll probably get more practice at hatin' it, cause it'll probably happen again from someone else.  It's a pretty common practice on discussion forums to reference past threads that may address in great (helpful) detail, a "new" question or thread.  So keep your hater handy.   :laughing7:

Also, in those threads listed, WW had quite a bit to say about the subject.   :2c:

Carry on  :angel5:

Sorry about using the word hate, the reply was meant to one of humor I'm sure you knew that. No as i have said hes a searcher, and appreciated :bigGrin:

Don't be so sure about that. I really thought it was a serious reply (although I had no clue what was so wrong about my post :winkgrin:). I asked Jabcat to ban you but he didn't take me serious either...
:friendstu:
(no harm done buddy)

Cool :cool: :ok: :happyclap:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 07:17:07 AM
Are we judged after we are dead?
Clarified, for those who believe or accept the belief that when we die(dead) and go to the grave; were those souls judged before they died?

When a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?
How many judgments are there?

:2c:

We see through a glass darkly. One thing I do believe tho, is that it says,

"It is given to man once to die"

Hmmm so what about the second death?

Guess the bible is contradictory huh?

"and then comes the judgment"- krisis- means "to stand before a tribunal" so, even for those of us who believe in the judgment to come, Great White Throne etc., it doesnt say

"It is given to man once to die and then be cast into hell to burn forever or be annihilated"   which is what most people "hear" in that verse

All it says is that you die once(physically, in general, not including lazarus and the woman's son that elijah saved and some others who died twice :o)- and then you will pass before the tribunal.

This tribunal is described in Romans chapter two, as occuring on "the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ, their consciences either accusing them or excusing them"

The record God is keeping within our own conscience is all the tribunal that is needed(the books will be opened, soul and spirit will be separated, the secrets of the heart revealed- His eyes are as flames of fire and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth). For all we know it will happen, "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye" when we die and leave this realm- we may all awaken in the same moment.... or it may occur when the earth and the sea give up there dead at the end of the millienial reign, or, since the veil will be rent and time may be no more, maybe all of those things occur simultaneously in the other-where and ever-when of time transcendent eternity.

"For we shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the life in the body, according to what we have done, good or evil (kakos-worthless, defiled, bad)"

Thank God that there is now no more condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ, who walk according to the Spirit.

It is so hard for us.....headstrong and soulish as we tend to be, to leave the wood hay and stubble of our own imaginations about how much we "know"- and how bad others need to "know" that we know. That tree of knowledge just tastes soooo good to the flesh. Thus the strife and contests of words and the emptiness.This is why we will suffer loss, but no fear, the burning is only consuming all those imperfect works so that our soul and spirit may be preserved whole and intact on the Day :o)


"If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to kno"- Paul the apostle

Romans 6;7

  because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 

   Rev 14;13  Then I heard a voice from heaven say,'WRITE BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON"

     YES,SAYS THE SPIRIT,THEY WILL REST FROM THEIR LABOUR,FOR THEIR DEEDS[done in body]WILL FOLLOW THEM

    Romans 4;7,;8  Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven,whose sins are covered

   Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord  will never count against him

Quote from: eaglesway on September 15, 2011, 10:32:10 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 07:17:07 AM
Are we judged after we are dead?
Clarified, for those who believe or accept the belief that when we die(dead) and go to the grave; were those souls judged before they died?

When a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?
How many judgments are there?

:2c:

We see through a glass darkly. One thing I do believe tho, is that it says,

"It is given to man once to die"

Hmmm so what about the second death?

Guess the bible is contradictory huh?

"and then comes the judgment"- krisis- means "to stand before a tribunal" so, even for those of us who believe in the judgment to come, Great White Throne etc., it doesnt say

"It is given to man once to die and then be cast into hell to burn forever or be annihilated"   which is what most people "hear" in that verse

All it says is that you die once(physically, in general, not including lazarus and the woman's son that elijah saved and some others who died twice :o)- and then you will pass before the tribunal.

This tribunal is described in Romans chapter two, as occuring on "the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ, their consciences either accusing them or excusing them"

The record God is keeping within our own conscience is all the tribunal that is needed(the books will be opened, soul and spirit will be separated, the secrets of the heart revealed- His eyes are as flames of fire and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth). For all we know it will happen, "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye" when we die and leave this realm- we may all awaken in the same moment.... or it may occur when the earth and the sea give up there dead at the end of the millienial reign, or, since the veil will be rent and time may be no more, maybe all of those things occur simultaneously in the other-where and ever-when of time transcendent eternity.

"For we shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the life in the body, according to what we have done, good or evil (kakos-worthless, defiled, bad)"

Thank God that there is now no more condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ, who walk according to the Spirit.

It is so hard for us.....headstrong and soulish as we tend to be, to leave the wood hay and stubble of our own imaginations about how much we "know"- and how bad others need to "know" that we know. That tree of knowledge just tastes soooo good to the flesh. Thus the strife and contests of words and the emptiness.This is why we will suffer loss, but no fear, the burning is only consuming all those imperfect works so that our soul and spirit may be preserved whole and intact on the Day :o)


"If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows not yet as he ought to kno"- Paul the apostle

Beautiful, I was greatly blessed by that.

Ever wonder if the "once to die" is pertaining more to a spiritual death rather than a physical one?  I think that's kind of been some of the arguments that come from the subject eventually.  It's given to MAN  . . .the carnal man in me once to die and then judgment. 

First, what kind of judgment are we talking about?  Didn't Jesus already take upon himself "our" judgment of destruction?  So, if it's judgment exercised upon man, "that" has already been through Christ so God's judgment is not to be something of a destructive nature of men, but perhaps his judgment is righteousness.  We are what he declares we are.  He declared Abraham righteous, do we think Abraham had to go through judgment at his death?  Is Abraham still waiting somewhere in the netherworld for the Great White Throne?  Ever wonder why it's called "WHITE" throne judgment?  Shouldn't "that" be an indication as to what type of judgment this is to be?

Okay, now the "once to die".  Is that not something that happens to the carnal man INWARDLY?  What would the judgment be that immediately follows the death of my old man?  Would it not be God's mercy, grace and forgiveness?  That's what quickens the resurrection of the anointed man in us.  The old man dies and out of the shell, like a seed that first is planted in the earth, it dies and out of it's death springs forth a life-giving nature.

Nathan, i was thinking the same thing. Am not sure but it could be that the "once to die" is a spiritual death.

CHB

Quote from: Nathan on September 16, 2011, 12:43:46 AM
Ever wonder if the "once to die" is pertaining more to a spiritual death rather than a physical one?  I think that's kind of been some of the arguments that come from the subject eventually.  It's given to MAN  . . .the carnal man in me once to die and then judgment. 

First, what kind of judgment are we talking about?  Didn't Jesus already take upon himself "our" judgment of destruction?  So, if it's judgment exercised upon man, "that" has already been through Christ so God's judgment is not to be something of a destructive nature of men, but perhaps his judgment is righteousness.  We are what he declares we are.  He declared Abraham righteous, do we think Abraham had to go through judgment at his death?  Is Abraham still waiting somewhere in the netherworld for the Great White Throne?  Ever wonder why it's called "WHITE" throne judgment?  Shouldn't "that" be an indication as to what type of judgment this is to be?

Okay, now the "once to die".  Is that not something that happens to the carnal man INWARDLY?  What would the judgment be that immediately follows the death of my old man?  Would it not be God's mercy, grace and forgiveness?  That's what quickens the resurrection of the anointed man in us.  The old man dies and out of the shell, like a seed that first is planted in the earth, it dies and out of it's death springs forth a life-giving nature.

I have considered it. I have not at this point seen it apart from a common reference to the end of life in the flesh, rather than a symbolic or metaphoric reference to spiritual death, since we are "in death in Adam" until we are "in life in Christ"- passed from death unto life, the "new birth"-entering the zoe/aionian life of the "Behold I am making all things new".Also, the context leads me to see it as related to life in the body. But perhaps the writer of Hebrews had something else in mind. I see that the prophetic metaphors run all through the instructions and the exhortations, but I rarely disregard their "on the face" meanings in order to receive the deeper message. It seems to me that both the straight forward words and the deeper views are seamlessly intertwined. I am saying all that- notjust  to make a point but to explain how I understand the scriptures, for the sake of communication and mutual understanding :o)

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God's Son got all Judgement for all Mankind.  When this body goes in the grave, they are all going to eternal Life.

Lee

Should the wages of sin be death and that death is a spiritual death, then Jesus' death was of nothing.

1Co 15:12  Now, if, Christ is proclaimed, that, from among the dead, he hath been raised, how say some, among you—resurrection of the dead, there is none?
1Co 15:13  But, if, resurrection of the dead, there is none, not even Christ, hath been raised;
1Co 15:14  And, if Christ, hath not been raised, void, after all, is our proclamation, void also, our faith,—
1Co 15:15  And we are found, even false-witnesses of God, because we have witnessed respecting God, that he raised the Christ,—whom he did not raise, if, indeed, after all, the dead are not raised!
1Co 15:16 For, if the dead are not raised, not even Christ, hath been raised;
1Co 15:17  And, if Christ hath not been raised, to no purpose, is your faith, yet, are ye in your sins!
1Co 15:18  Hence also, they who are fallen asleep in Christ, are lost:
1Co 15:19  If, in this life, in Christ, we have hoped—and that is all, we are, of all men, most to be pitied.

Rev 20:5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours--and their works do follow them!'
Rev 20:12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev 20:13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

It's great to see you know how to copy and paste Scripture, but none of it changes anything . . .it can still be seen as spiritual death rather than physical.

Sure anything can be seen as something.
All verses Micah quoted reference to Jesus who was raised from a physical death.

Quote from: CHB on September 16, 2011, 01:11:12 AM
Nathan, i was thinking the same thing. Am not sure but it could be that the "once to die" is a spiritual death.

CHB

What about people who are reborn and fall away later in their life? Maybe even more than once?

Are you a parent?  Ever have a child that chose to disconnect themselves from you?  Does that make them any less of a child to you?  What if this isn't about what "man" decides . . .but instead it's about what God has already decided for man???

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
Rev 20:5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours--and their works do follow them!'
Rev 20:12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev 20:13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

I plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 06:13:46 PMI plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

So you are promoting hypocrisy which also will be judged?  :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 16, 2011, 06:39:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 06:13:46 PMI plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

So you are promoting hypocrisy which also will be judged?  :winkgrin:

:HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 08:36:21 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 16, 2011, 06:39:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 06:13:46 PMI plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

So you are promoting hypocrisy which also will be judged?  :winkgrin:

:HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

Et tu, Brute?

Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 06:13:46 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
Rev 20:5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours--and their works do follow them!'
Rev 20:12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev 20:13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

I plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

Opening Post aint talking about that Molly.
Are we judged after we are dead?
Clarified, for those who believe or accept the belief that when we die(dead) and go to the grave; were those souls judged before they died?

When a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?
How many judgments are there?

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 10:08:20 PMHow many judgments are there?

I think the answer is several.
In Revelation we read that not all people are resurrected at the same time. That choice/diffrention is a judgement. Then we have, imo, a purely works based judgement. The sheep and goat.
In the OT we see God several times turning away/punishing the Jewish people. That's judgement too.
Likely not the answer you had in mind but I think you have to define judgement a little for your question. It has such a wide range of meanings that. We all judge many times on daily basis. For example the fruit we buy. We approve the quality (defenition 2)

κρίνω
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 10:08:20 PMWhen a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?

Depends...
Let's go back to OT times. A man committed a crime and is caught. The Jewish court checks the law and sentences him to death by stoning. Assuming the court was fair and made no mistakes they carried out the law as given to them by God.
So indirectly God punished/judged that man. So he paid for his crime in full. So the answer is "No". But IMO that doesn't mean that man isn't judged for other unpunished crimes that he committed.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2011, 01:28:40 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 10:08:20 PMWhen a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?

Depends...
Let's go back to OT times. A man committed a crime and is caught. The Jewish court checks the law and sentences him to death by stoning. Assuming the court was fair and made no mistakes they carried out the law as given to them by God.
So indirectly God punished/judged that man. So he paid for his crime in full. So the answer is "No". But IMO that doesn't mean that man isn't judged for other unpunished crimes that he committed.

That is true should you not look at the OT as an example of what judgment is about. The OT for me type and shadow for the believer to see how it will work out on the DAY of judgment. I dont quite understand it myself as of yet.

I believe that there is but ONE DAY of Judgment.

"I plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me." Molly

Yes, I believe and hope that also for myself. Those who KNOW are being judged now today as we walk. And when the Day of Judgment is here, "I plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges." this is our hope. Its that judgment that by the Grace of God we go thru the Lake of Fire NOW as we yield to voice of the Holy Spirit.

There is only one day of judgment. And the dead[expired] will be judged. So the dead are judged after death. As Molly believes, and I as well, should we begin our dying now, born from above, a new creature, our flesh bodies work the same as always and will die as ALL will die, the death; but those who have Ears to Hear Now To Day.....we are being judged now, those who hear are going thru the Consuming Fire of God NOW.

We see through a glass darkly :o)

Quote from: Micahwe are being judged now, those who hear are going thru the Consuming Fire of God NOW

...And we will never die.

How is it in all these discussions, much of the reasoning seems to ignore grace.  IF grace abounds, judgment, especially old covenant judgments SHOULD be affected by that grace . . .if we're still to be judged . . .if ALL men are still to be judged after this life, then what's the point of grace in the first place?

Quote from: Nathan on September 19, 2011, 04:40:57 PM
How is it in all these discussions, much of the reasoning seems to ignore grace.  IF grace abounds, judgment, especially old covenant judgments SHOULD be affected by that grace . . .if we're still to be judged . . .if ALL men are still to be judged after this life, then what's the point of grace in the first place?

Not all men.  Those who are not judged now.



For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?[1 Pet 4:17]

And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"[1 Pet 4:18]

Luke 23:31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!

Extacly there are lots of verses about judgement. Revelation is full of judgement.
Imo it's nowhere thaught grace replaces judgement. Judgement exists because there is grace. Without grace judgement isn't possible because the wages of sin is death and it's a waste of time to judge dead people.

And again . . .the point of your quotes is . . ..justifying the focus on judgment???

Let's check out your first cherry picker . . . just see what it looks like "in" context this time . . .
14 So be happy when you are insulted for being a Christian,[e] for then the glorious Spirit of God[f] rests upon you.[g] 15 If you suffer, however, it must not be for murder, stealing, making trouble, or prying into other people's affairs. 16 But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name! 17 For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God's household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God's Good News? 18 And also,

   "If the righteous are barely saved,
      what will happen to godless sinners?"  (this is a quote out of proverbs . . .an OLD TESTAMENT quote)

19 So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.

This has nothing to do with judgment to those when they're dead . . .which has been my issue all along.  These things we see references to are not things that are pertaining to the spirit life after our natural lives come to an end.

the context here is speaking about trials IN THIS LIFE as a result of their/our faith in Christ.  But also "in" the context of WHEN it was written, there was a lot of persecution going on in that day.  So much so that it wasn't long after Peter wrote this that he himself was crucified.  Paul wrote along the same lines, "rejoice in your despair" it was to encourage those who were already going through hell for what they believed.

Has nothing to do with being judged when you die.

You're other one . . .
Luke 23
6 As they led Jesus away, a man named Simon, who was from Cyrene, happened to be coming in from the countryside. The soldiers seized him and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27 A large crowd trailed behind, including many grief-stricken women. 28 But Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, don't weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the days are coming when they will say, 'Fortunate indeed are the women who are childless, the wombs that have not borne a child and the breasts that have never nursed.' 30 People will beg the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and plead with the hills, 'Bury us.'[c] 31 For if these things are done when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?[d]

I'm not really even sure what you were trying to say by quoting this one verse in the first place.  My comment was, it appears that many have been overlooking the infinite reaches of grace while they choose to dissect the effects of judgment . . .and you quoted "if man does these evil things when the tree is green, imagine how bad it's going to get when the tree is dry . . ."  ???  That's why I'm personally not crazy about just quoting a verse with no comments around it of my own . . . unless the poster makes a comment, the verse is left up to the interpretation of the reader, which in most cases, isn't going to have the same interpretation of that verse of the person who's pasting it in the first place.

For me, this passage is speaking of the fact that Jesus was really giving warning to those who were watching him go through the beginning processes of his death that if things are this cruel when the tree is green . . .when Jesus is among them . . when the gospel is being offered "to" them, how bad is it going to be when he leaves, when the gospel turns from Jew to Gentile.  Again . . .nothing about judgment when we die.

James 5:6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

1 Look here, you rich people: Weep and groan with anguish because of all the terrible troubles ahead of you. 2 Your wealth is rotting away, and your fine clothes are moth-eaten rags. 3 Your gold and silver have become worthless. The very wealth you were counting on will eat away your flesh like fire. This treasure you have accumulated will stand as evidence against you on the day of judgment. 4 For listen! Hear the cries of the field workers whom you have cheated of their pay. The wages you held back cry out against you. The cries of those who harvest your fields have reached the ears of the Lord of Heaven's Armies.

5 You have spent your years on earth in luxury, satisfying your every desire. You have fattened yourselves for the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and killed innocent people,[a] who do not resist you.

Why you picked the one verse you did, I have no idea, it doesn't seem to be connected to "anything" that my comment entailed.  If I were you, I would have posted 3 cuz in there it at least uses the word "judgment" in it.  For me, these guys are the same that Corinthians is addressing in that they've built their doctrines with straw and wood and  they'll suffer great loss . . for me that's saying that they've basically wasted their energy in this realm in all the years they spent building on their fleshly desires rather than on spiritual truths.

The last one you quoted was actually a repeat of the first one in that "this" is the Proverbs verse he was quoting . . .already covered that one.

In all of this. . . if grace is as great as the claim is, why then all the focus on judgment???  The quotes of Scripture answered nothing.

We are being judged now.

Yes we are suffering persecutions and trials in this life.

We have already been buried into Christ's death.

And, we know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

We are being judged now, not later.

Therefore, what of those who are godless sinners now?  Do they get off the hook for their evil deeds--or judged when they die?

Peter is giving a warning.  God is still a God of justice.


behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

--Rev 3

Justice doesn't trump grace Molly.  They work hand in hand.  And there's no indication there that he's saying if the godly are going through their judgment on this earth, imagine the judgment the ungodly will go through in their death . . .judgment is the same as consequences.  You jump off a building, your judgment comes when your body violently introduces itself to the cement waiting for your arrival below.

Come on now, give this some serious thought.  "if" it's as you say and judgment comes to the ungodly . . .what was that deal with the adulterous woman all about that the religious people brought to Jesus?  Why was there no judgment handed down to "her"?  Why didn't Jesus shrug his shoulders at her and go "hey, you play, you pay . . ."?

In fact, is there ANYWHERE in Jesus ENTIRE ministry where he was in a situation that he didn't withhold grace over our so-called justice?  What is it about human nature that it finds judgment to be such an attractive attribute of God's nature?  Of all the characteristics of the fruit of the Spirit, which one of those implies judgment?

Actually that's a loaded question.  For me, the answer is . . .ALL OF THEM.  Because judgment from God manifests completely differently than our natural presumptions.

Justice does not trump grace, but we all go through the process. Often times we go through intense experiences of trial and discipline before we bow the knee and confess with the tongue and pass from death unto life. The sufferings of this life are, as I read the scriptures, not the only process. I think,Jesus clearly says that there will be a resurrection of life(for those who have passed from death into life) and a resurrection of tribunal. He tries the reins and the hearts and His reward is with Him. Some will be rewarded(overcomers rewards) some will suffer loss... some mens sins go before them into judgment - some follow after. Ther are just so many verses that refer to things like- the wicked, in this life, are often at ease, but there punishment awaits them. I think you have to throw away way too much of the word to eliminate the aspect of future processes of purging and discipline from the ages yet to come. The way  Paul wrote in Romans 2:4-16, 1 Cor 3:11-15, 1 Cor 15:21-28(among others), I see a future ages process that leads to the subjection of all the enemies and the "every knee bows" anakephalaiomai"(gathering together into one). I think it is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make from the scriptures as they are written and in no way diminishes the grace of God, because "justice and mercy have met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other" and "mercy triumphs over judgment". We only need to look around a little to see that God allows, and even causes, suffering for the correction of the wicked and the edification of the righteous.

Th th th that's all folks!  :2c:

But are we not still thinking naturally?  I'm not saying that one can do whatever one wants and not pay the consequences, which can manifest in countless ways that our limited minds most certainly haven't even imagined.  Yet none of us have ever fully crossed over "from" this realm into the other to be able to come back and say "this is how it's gonna be on the other side . . ."  And yet the discussions come across as though that's the case.  Many times the reason I do push back a bit is to try to get all of us to actually "hear" what it is we're saying.  This is one of those times.

Time . . . we don't know what it's like to be beyond it's measure.  The realm in which we live is measured and governed by it, but the spirit is not.  It's "outside" of the measurement of time.  Even when there are spiritual, prophetic time frames given, it's not because it's measured in heaven, but it's patterned after the length of time on earth . .time, times and half of time . . .very mysterious in our eyes because we don't know what it's like not to measure time.  So when we look at judgment, we expect there will be a "time" of that as well.  But this judgment . . .is it natural or spiritual?  If it's natural, that's where I see the consequences of our actions coming into play . . .but if it's spiritual . . . that's a whole other matter because there's no length to spiritual, it's instantaneous.  It's FINISHED works reality. 

That's only one aspect.  That's only looking at it logistically.

Spiritually, does our view of judgment come into the alignment of the nature and essence of Jesus?  If someone hits you, justice says you can hit them back, grace says turn the other cheek.  "Yeah, cuz God is going to judge them in the end . . ."  Really?  Doesn't Scripture tell us that WE HAVE THE POWER to release and to bind???  If we forgive someone on earth, they are forgiven in heaven?  Does our forgiveness only become effective if they ask for it?  The soldiers that killed Jesus, and even to the extension of those that put him on the cross, what did Jesus pray?  Did he pray that God would judge them?  That his justice would manifest in them?  Or that God would forgive them? 

If we do release forgiveness, how then can they still be judged?  If judgment happens, forgiveness never took effect.  Old Covenant emphasized judgment.  New Covenant fulfilled the need for judgment and the emphasis became one of grace.  As I stated before, the insistence of judgment doesn't carry with it any of the characteristics of the fruit of the spirit . . .I think that's more than a coincidence.  The judgment Jesus passed on to the woman caught in adultery was in the form of forgiveness.  If he can forgive her, she didn't know him, she didn't ask for his forgiveness and yet that was the judgment he rendered to her, and if he can forgive her, why is there such a struggle in thinking that this same forgiveness will be rendered to everyone else as well? 

If we have the light of truth in us, our message, interest and focus should be on things that illuminate and bring life to us and others . . .this persistence that judgment is yet to come to those who don't have a relationship with God in the next realm really seems to be distracting the message of life to one of death and I for one want to be resurrected from that rather than try to reinforce it's message with others.

I "am" challenging you to think differently on this.  I'm not condemning you if you don't by any means.  But I believe that love has already brought judgment to sin and I don't think another judgment is still awaiting for those that didn't ask for forgiveness from the first judgment.  I believe love has already over come.  But it's so incomprehensible to our natural logic that we can't even fathom the affects of it's reaches.  I think "UR" is merely our way of scratching the surface leading to the depths of just how great the affects of the cross really has been.

We continue to revert to the Scripture as the final word . . .even if our interpretation contradicts the nature of Jesus himself.  We hold to our conclusions because that's the only thing we can grasp.  We can't grasp what we can't see.  yet the only way into the kingdom is by seeing what can't be seen.  Faith.  It changes everything.  Scripture "does" support these things.  But only when you can read what can't be seen.  Follow the nature of Christ, it leads to ALL truths.  His nature was not to bring judgment, but redemption.  The law has already judged us and we've been found wanting.  But Christ fulfilled the law and THROUGH HIM, "MAN" has been redeemed.

When men come into that awareness, the things of this world can no longer hold them to it's bondages.  Men who don't come into this awareness, their bondages are the evidence that judgment still is holding them in debt.  But again, when we pass from this realm bound by time, into the spirit realm free from time's influence, judgment no longer is in effect. 

Can you imagine the look on the Pharisee's faces when they would hear things like what Jesus said in Matthew 5?  "You have heard it said . . .BUT I SAY.
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

And again . ..
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Know why these things he was sharing were the opposite from what they've been taught?  Because he's giving them spiritual principles over their natural justices.  Grace trumps justice.  Let my message be one of grace, not one of judgment.  That I may be the child of the Father which is in heaven . . . the principles of God work against the principles of men because men operate in man in the name of God, rather than operating in the nature of God against the logic of man.

If I start my interpretation of Scripture from knowing the nature of God first, the verses of judgment that appear to be destructive in nature become something all together different.  That's why I brought up the adulterous woman . . .her judgment was, forgiveness.  That's the kind of judgment I want to pass on to others.  Put them in a furnace of fire after they die if you want, but if Jesus showed how he passes judgement when he was here on earth, why would I think that he's going to be any different in passing judgment on us after death?

Forgiveness has been released to all already....one could say, from the foundation of the world.

Processes were set in place for reasons only God knows. FOR WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD AND WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR.

As far as thinking naturally is concerned, what is natural is what is passing away. What is spiritual is what is real- regardless of how we perceive it. The difference between time and eternity and how we view it is certainly key to our understanding, and as I post repeatedly in all my stuff..... We see that through a glass darkly. However, we see through the glass of the Logos thru the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God. I am only stating what I see through it. I prefer to remain within the language of the apostles. Time/eternity paradigm shifts , in my opinion, go beyond what we have been given :o).

I see a process. An administration suitable to the fulness of times, a dispensation of ages that is not yet complete in its growth from a seed in the mind of God before the foundation of the kosmos into its final form, which is beyond our ability to conceive, according to the testimonies of John, Paul and Jesus.

I think the language of the scriptures is woven seamlessly through ALL the word, but only God sees  the end from the beginning. As I wrote before, I think that what I am saying is a perfectly reasonable conclusion with out cutting it from the whole cloth. The judgment of the wicked is frequently written of in terms I find incompatible with the idea of being finished in this age, with this life. If someone can deal with the scriptures in that regard I might change my mind.

Of course, I came to believe in UR through the scriptures.

Personally, I believe these processes have to do with free will, which is at the core of our being created in the image of God, and God is bringing these free wills into harmony with His own, without compromising freedom in the process. Therefore we reap what we sow, there are enemies and will be till God has subjected them to Christ and becomes all in all.

All God does is in love, but His ways are higher than our ways -as the Israelites might have testified to as they went bound and chained to Assyria, even as they carried a promise that in 70 years they would be restored....or in the same way, as the manna fell while they "saw my works for 40 years and I said of them, they shall not enter my rest".

I think that warning people is somewhat meaningless in the paradigm that all consequences to ignoring the call of God are in this life. We are warned, even as we are loved. :clock:

Forgiveness has been released to all already, one might say, from the foundation of the world. Certainly the mercy of God is pre-eminent in all that He does. Yet, there have been ages and an unfolding process from the seed, in the mind of God before the foundation of the world- through to the final outcome where all will be in harmony within His love. We do not yet see this, because it is not yet manifested. It is nevertheless absolutely assured.

I came to believe in UR through searching the scriptures.

As far as natural thinking is concerned, what is natural is passing away. Spiritual perception is simply recognizing what is real, or what really is. As far as the the view from eternity is concerned, as I say in most of my posts, we see through a glass darkly. The glass is the Logos and the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God. I prefer the language of the apostles. I see in it a dispensation of ages in which a process of bringing everyone into harmony with God's love is causing all things to work according to the counsel of His will, His kind intention, the summing up of all things in Christ. We do not yet see this fulfilled and I think we have an age or two left till we do.

But as I said before, I think it perfectly reasonable to perceive, through the scriptures, and what I know of God, that an interlude, or experience, of exposure and an intense penetration by the fire in His eyes, after bodily death,is described by the Lord and the apostles. Its exact nature, timing and duration is not given in my opinion. But it is warned against. It is to be avoided in the most serious terms. One of the benefits of "being the first to hope in Christ(Eph 1)" is avoiding that experience and experiencing the demonstration of His kindness toward us in the "ages to come".

The only comparison I can think of off the cuff is the Israelites trudging off to Babylon in chains bearing a promise that they would be restored in 70 years, or maybe the manna falling from heaven like loving rain even as God said, "They always go astray in their hearts, and they shall not enter my rest." Of course, eventually they will enter His rest- we know all Israel will be saved.

In the meantime there are friends and there are enemies and there are overcomers and there are backsliders and God loves them all and has forgiven them all- yet the last enemy to be subjected will be death. His love will consume them all, but for some it will be like fire in their bones until they yield to it, just as it was and sometimes is in mine.

If their were no reason for these warnings, I don't believe the Logos would contain the and I really think it is all about free will, which is at the core of our being made in His image.

    apply wrath,LOF to wicked tools only.Apply mercy to man...and you'll have His judgement.


    it was never in the heart of God to burn His children....but the fires of Gehenna is where you throw away a tool you no longer need[the dump/burn pile]

    For this reason Jesus said to offspring of viper spirits,'who will save you from the fires of Ghenna?"

I agree that tools and vipers are destined for Gehenna. Fire does its work, consuming the garbage. Some will cling to it so fiercly, building a fortress of lies in which to fellowship in darkness, they will find Gehenna, whatever that represents, to be the place of their pain and their deliverance.  I also believe this is already begun. Many of us were birthed into the light as "Gehenna fire" consumed our works and exposed the secrets of our hearts. In the final outworking, it is about becoming partakers of the divine nature. This begins when we capitulate to the Lordship of Jesus, the incorruptible seed is planted in our hearts, and the kingdom begins to leaven us as the hands of the master kneads us(sometimes rather fiercely) into a leavened loaf. Yet before that occurs, the chaff must be broken of with beating, separated with fanning and consumed with unquenchable fire. To me, this is about BECOMING and OVERCOMING, and requires our co-operation (zeal for your house consumes me, nevertheless not my will but yours, behold it is written in the volume of the book of me, I come to do thy will O God). Becoming is transformation into the image of Christ. Overcoming is about Gethsemane, not Gehenna.

What is burning? The language is representative. His eyes are as flames of fire. Our God is a consuming fire. The fire is light. Light is fire to darkness. Where darkness lives the light burns through. "Nothing is hidden from the eyes of him with whom we have to do". On the day when God judges men by the "secrets of their hearts" some will be excused by their conscience, some will be accused, but "everything that is hidden will be brought to the light"- and that is already begun. The question, as I see it, is whether or not it shall all be accomplished in this life- a question I might add, that is interesting to discuss, but by no means imperative for the disciple of Christ to effectively proclaim the good news. Whatever the actual experience will be, if, as some of us believe, it is to be finished on the consummate Day, is unknown. Certainly it is not actual flames burning flesh- this is an abomination to God for which He judged Israel and the heathen nations. The mercy of God will triumph over all His judgment even as He has exalted His word over all His name. It is not the hearers of the law who are justified, it is the doers. I think it breaks down into WAY MORE PRACTICAL DAILY THINGS like, "I was hungry and you fed me", rather than what we know, or think we know. I think the tools are men, and some of them wicked and in need of repentance. It is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. "Some save with mercy, some save with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Vessels of wrath, predestined according to fore knowledge, appointed to wrath? Chosen and elect, called according to His purpose, appointed to salvation? whew!

At any rate, I think the judgment of God is more like an intervention than being put in the stocks. The LOF, in my opinion, is about being penetrated by light, and it is not for those who are washed in the blood. I make no confident assertions about it because I don't think it is visible yet. If you are clinging to the darkness, unwilling to come out into the light, or to have your deeds and motives exposed, I think it will be a very unpleasant experience, as I believe the Lord explained and warned in several ways.

I will hear what God the LORD will say; For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones; But let them not turn back to folly. Surely His salvation is near to those who fear Him, That glory may dwell in our land. Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:8-10)

For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
(from 1Co 10:1-15)

Many posts in this thread amaze me. Some people have zero problems ripping out half the pages of the Bible because it doesn't fit with what they (want to) believe. Just hardcore ET in reverse. ETs throw out almost al grace and those hyper URs do the same with judgement. If ETs get cornered when confronted with verses they use "God's ways are higher" as a last resort. Several here use "It's all spiritual" as a last resort.
Lot's of judgement in the OT. Jesus gives some clear warnings about judgement in the NT. Revelation is full of such warnings (400+ verses direct copies the OT)
Yeah, I heared the arguments; God hates sins but loves the sinner. Only the bad things are burned up but the person isn't affected. I'm not promoting literal fire or endless punishment because I believe that's not in the Bible. I'm just promoting using all verses and then come up with a doctrine.
No matter how some twists, turns and ignore verses they still are there.
Why so many verses about punishment/judgement (in whatever shape or form) when God completely overlooks all sins. That's exactly what some "spiritual posters" on this forum imply. God sees a person that has sinned in every possible way and just throws a bucked of grace over that person and all sins are gone. If that's how it works then why even bother mentioning judgement so often? What those people suggest can be compared to an earthly court in which the judge say "not guilty"the moment the defendant steps into the courtroom.
Then there are questions/remarks like: Does judgement overrule the power of the cross? Does judgement overrule grace?
To that I can only say: If you know what those words mean you know judgment and grace is a package deal. If I stretch that a little more (to much) I would say judgement and grace are the "same" thing. Judgement is the the tool that brings grace into existance.

:2c:

GRACE is the tool that brings judgment, Grace is the GIFT that begins the work of His judgments to bring forth His purpose and plan that will save all men.

Just thought of something. What if God's judgment is righteousness?     (Psalms 94:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the up right in heart shall follow it.     

(Psalms 9:8) And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

If Jesus died for all sins, when God the Father pronounces judgment, wouldn't he use Christ as the example for us all? What if God is going to judge us righteous because of what his Son did, not what we do?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on September 21, 2011, 07:01:24 PM
Just thought of something. What if God's judgment is righteousness?     (Psalms 94:15) But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the up right in heart shall follow it.     

(Psalms 9:8) And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

If Jesus died for all sins, when God the Father pronounces judgment, wouldn't he use Christ as the example for us all? What if God is going to judge us righteous because of what his Son did, not what we do?

CHB

:thumbsup:

I just posted something similar on another judgement thread that paoloneovo started.

I think we take too negative a view of what judgement is.

Now ya got it!.....Love does not keep account of the injury :mshock:.........

   so what's this books opened and judgement for the things done in the body?    It is the prince of this world already judged that his works are wicked...

   such as hate,greed,lust,liar,strife,...such fruit is corrupt, and through such fruitage...death come to Adam.......and so we find.......

    all dead in Adam...the spirit of the liar and murderer...  and what was done in the fallen body of Adam..that goes off into LOF[trash heps/gehenna burning of tool]

   and then....there are the works of the life giving quickening spirit...LAST ADAM.....that gives the free gift of life[the Lamb] TO SHEEP.


    Now this LAMB IS JUDGED RIGHTEOUS IN GOD'S SIGHT FOR THINGS DONE IN THE BODY....fruits..of love peace,joy,righteousness,self-control

  meekness,truth.

   we're not to judge flesh but discern the tree by it's fruit.....He instructed us to make the tree and the fruit good,or the tree and the fruit evil....

   and ye shall know a tree by it's fruit... Speaking spiritual family trees here :mshock:   Discerning spirits........Jesus Christ judged no man......

  but He certainly discerned spirits! 

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 10:08:20 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 06:13:46 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
Rev 20:5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours--and their works do follow them!'
Rev 20:12  and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls--according to their works;
Rev 20:13  and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

I plan to be on the other side of this equation, among the Judges.  So y'all better be nice to me.

Opening Post aint talking about that Molly.
Are we judged after we are dead?
Clarified, for those who believe or accept the belief that when we die(dead) and go to the grave; were those souls judged before they died?

When a soul is executed for a heinous crime, and he dies dead, has he been judged or does that soul await judgement?
How many judgments are there?

It really up sets me when a question is asked and there are hundreds of lines of explaining a belief that person has and no real answer....


( How many Judgements are there....??? )   There is only one Judgement to any "thing" exsisting after the Reserrection of Christ, The Judgement "took" place with Jesus Christ. And because He was Judged worthy , we all are Judged worthy from that time forward... All things were saved/ Healed / made right with the Father at the cross forever.... ALLL

Well there are two by fire.  Are these not judgments?

Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire.

Co 3:14 If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages."
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."
1Co 3:16 Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?

1Pe 4:17 seeing that it is the era for the judgment to begin from the house of God. Now if first from us, what is the consummation of those who are stubborn as to God's evangel?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and sentence of judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them who had been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and such as had not done homage unto the wild-beast or unto his image, nor had received the mark upon their forehead or upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ, for a thousand years.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that was sitting thereon, from whose face fled the earth and heaven, and, place, was not found for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and, books, were opened, and, another book, was opened, which is, the book, of life; and the dead, were judged, out of the things written in the books, according to their works.

I could be in error.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 03:39:28 AM

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and sentence of judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them who had been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and such as had not done homage unto the wild-beast or unto his image, nor had received the mark upon their forehead or upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ, for a thousand years.

Don't you realize you will judge angels?

Yes.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 03:39:28 AM
Well there are two by fire.  Are these not judgments?

Heb 12:29 for our God is also a consuming fire.

Co 3:14 If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages."
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire."
1Co 3:16 Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?

1Pe 4:17 seeing that it is the era for the judgment to begin from the house of God. Now if first from us, what is the consummation of those who are stubborn as to God's evangel?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and sentence of judgment was given unto them; and I saw the souls of them who had been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and such as had not done homage unto the wild-beast or unto his image, nor had received the mark upon their forehead or upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ, for a thousand years.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that was sitting thereon, from whose face fled the earth and heaven, and, place, was not found for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and, books, were opened, and, another book, was opened, which is, the book, of life; and the dead, were judged, out of the things written in the books, according to their works.

I could be in error.

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You said you could be in error,  I would believe that so if you did not realize that the quotes you are saying above are speaking to the house of Israel and not to people saved by God's Son's Grace.  i.e. after JC rose from the dead, all was completed, He completed His mission... All Are Saved and If you quote a book in the bible , don't forget that all books were written for a reason and to a people, even some of Paul's books were written talking about circumcision Saints and to their childern, and not to Gracers and their children.   

"the house of Israel and not to people saved by God's Son's Grace.
the house of Israel
Who is that?

"not to people saved by God's Son's Grace."?????

What happened to God's Grace for the world?

All I'm suggesting and I contend, there is more than one judgment.

1Co 6:2  have ye not known that the saints shall judge the world? and if by you the world is judged, are ye unworthy of the smaller judgments?


1Pe 4:17  For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
"the house of Israel and not to people saved by God's Son's Grace.
the house of Israel
Who is that?

"not to people saved by God's Son's Grace."?????

What happened to God's Grace for the world?

All I'm suggesting and I contend, there is more than one judgment.

1Co 6:2  have ye not known that the saints shall judge the world? and if by you the world is judged, are ye unworthy of the smaller judgments?


1Pe 4:17  For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

both the quotes above Paul is talking to people of the Law... under the Law, Us Gentiles are Not under the Law i.e. NOT Trangressors of Law i.e. sinners. sinners get death, Law followers get death, to obtain Life Eternal, one must come to a realization that they have it no matter what they do or say. Life is a given sense the rezz of Christ. All will live forever...  There is no judgement in Christ which all things are in Christ forever from this second on ...or from rezz day.

regarding;judging angels......

    If we are seated with Him in the heavens at present..then we are in the spiritual kingdom of Heaven...and we are already judging angels/spirits[messages brought]

  whether of the Lord and truth..or of anti-christ and deception and error.  This is s hown in parable by the Lord...as the net and the fish..and

  choosing and eating a good fish..and casting a bad fish away. The disciples were already doing this...with Annais and sapphira...the magician that

  wanted to buy the Holy spirit with money, etc. Discerning spirits is equal to God bringing all the lower animals to Adam for him to observe the

  nature of and 'name' it...thereby gaining dominion over it. when you gain dominion over it,through Christ,then you are ruling with Christ.....

   and so bringing into sunjection every 'thought' spirit message.

    It is a learning process....a teaching and leading in Holy spirit..into the fullness of Christ...it is the walk and the race to overcome the world and crush

  the 'head/mind' of serpent.

Quote from: SheilaIf we are seated with Him in the heavens at present..then we are in the spiritual kingdom of Heaven...and we are already judging angels/spirits[messages brought]

whether of the Lord and truth..or of anti-christ and deception and error

Yes.  Christ has put everything under his feet.  If we are seated with him in heavenly places, everything is put under our feet as well, including death.



17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

--Luke 10

Quote from: sheila on September 26, 2011, 03:56:08 PM
regarding;judging angels......

    If we are seated with Him in the heavens at present..then we are in the spiritual kingdom of Heaven...and we are already judging angels/spirits[messages brought]

  whether of the Lord and truth..or of anti-christ and deception and error.  This is s hown in parable by the Lord...as the net and the fish..and

  choosing and eating a good fish..and casting a bad fish away. The disciples were already doing this...with Annais and sapphira...the magician that

  wanted to buy the Holy spirit with money, etc. Discerning spirits is equal to God bringing all the lower animals to Adam for him to observe the

  nature of and 'name' it...thereby gaining dominion over it. when you gain dominion over it,through Christ,then you are ruling with Christ.....

   and so bringing into sunjection every 'thought' spirit message.

    It is a learning process....a teaching and leading in Holy spirit..into the fullness of Christ...it is the walk and the race to overcome the world and crush

  the 'head/mind' of serpent.

I see it  :thumbsup:

All of these things are in the seed that is germinating.

All of these things are in the measure of leaven hidden within the three measures of meal till all is leavened.

What we are doing now is what we will be doing then.

Now we see in part, then, we will know as we are known.

Not all have earned the right to judge angels.

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
(Php 3:8-15)

AMEN!!! :bigGrin: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :goodpost: :bigGrin:

Angels are just people like you and I that speak words... Words of Life or Words of Death....


Now Totally my thoughts on this is, If you stand in a church or on a street corner telling people about God and teaching that you Have to follow rules and regulations in order to show your love for God and His Son, and when you break these rules you will have to ask for forgiveness from God to get right with God again, then this makes you only ONE KIND OF ANGEL....

You are an angel of Death, teacher of Death/teacher to train sinners how to stay sinners forever and you as a little human being cant ever be a non sinner so you will always be a person standing in the halls of death.    You are a Messenger of Death  //  Angel of Darkness



Now if you teach that Mankind are not sinners sense Christ Completed His task to bring All Mankind into Life of God, all mankind are Non sinners, Non Law followers, and are Made Alive IN Christ because God Has given all thing into the hands of His Son and that Son DID what He said He would. Then you teach that All is dependent on Learning a new way of Life  ( earth life long lessen ), that is the New Life that is IN Christ.   

Then you are a Messenger OF Life.   An Angel OF God.