Jesus Returned in Power and Glory

[DavidFord]

"The word in that verse should not be translated world.   NASB, HCSB, NIV, and others got it right.
The Greek word in that verse is not world (kosmos) it's oikoumene (in habited land/Roman empire)
Augustus did tax the whole (kosmos) just the Roman empire (oikoumene).

Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel was preached throughout the oikoumene, Mt 24:14, it did and the end came.  Revelation is describing that end of the old covenant system that was vanishing away before the consummation of the new.  Heb 8:13, 9:8, Luk 21:20-22, Dan 12:7."

[DavidFord]

It seems to me that the 'great white throne judgment' of Revelation 20:11-15 is an elaboration of Daniel 12:1-4, 13.
It's already happened, before the end of AD 70.

Samuel G. Dawson, _The Resurrection: Israel's Old Testament Hope in Chronological Order_ (2018), 151pp., on 77, 78
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Israels-Testament-Chronological-Order/dp/1720807086/
The first correction is that the resurrection is predominantly an Old Testament subject, and the New Testament's teaching of the resurrection is based squarely on the Old.
You may not have known that.
I had been studying the Bible seriously for nearly four decades before I realized it.
...
First, the death the resurrection is concerned with is not biological death, but spiritual, the death that Adam died in the garden.
Second, the resurrection was not from biological death but from spiritual.
Rather than the resurrection occurring at the end of time, both the prophets and Paul taught that the resurrection took place at the end of the Mosaic age, when the Old Covenant heaven and earth passed away, and Israel's capital of Jerusalem and her temple were destroyed.
...
Those resurrected in AD 70 were Old Covenant saints from hades.
Since then, when Christians die biologically, they don't go to hades, but go directly to be with Christ, as John said in Rev. 14.13...

Revelation 14:13 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-13.htm
Then I heard a voice from heaven say,
"Write this:
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit,
"they will rest from their labor,
for their deeds will follow them."

Daniel 12 (Young's Literal)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/daniel/12.htm
1 'And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head,
who is standing up for the sons of thy people,
and there hath been a time of distress,
such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time,
and at that time do thy people escape,
every one who is found written in the book.
2 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake,
some to life age-during,
and some to reproaches-- to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse,
and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.
4 And thou, O Daniel,
hide the things,
and seal the book till the time of the end,
many do go to and fro,
and knowledge is multiplied.'
...
13 And thou, go on to the end,
then thou dost rest,
and dost stand in thy lot at the end of the days.'

A Preterist Commentary on Revelation 20: Summary and Highlights
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-20-a-preterist-commentary/
In this Preterist commentary on Revelation 20, compelling historical evidence is presented showing that the thousand year reign was literally one thousand years long and the Gog mentioned in this chapter is the literal, historical Gog of Turkey mentioned in Biblical history. 
The Millennium is NOT an end time prophecy!   (See A Rebuttal of the Forty-Year Millennium.) 
The Millennium began in A.D. 70 and is thus the first thousand years of the Messianic kingdom which is the New Covenant, the Age to Come and the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22. 
During the thousand years after the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Palestine- and especially Jerusalem- grew to become almost exclusively Christian. 
Biblical Gog is in Turkey. 
Interestingly, in A.D. 1071-- ONE THOUSAND YEARS AFTER THE FALL OF JERUSALEM IN A.D. 70-- the Turks (LITERAL GOG) conquered Palestine and incited the Crusades. 

Furthermore, in literal fulfillment of Revelation 20:9 eyewitnesses to the First Crusade recorded Christians launching firebrands into Muslim-occupied Jerusalem literally fulfilling the fire from heaven mentioned in Revelation 20:9. 
During this same war, the Muslim Turks surrounded Crusader-occupied Antioch. 
And amidst this siege an eye-witness said that fire from heaven fell upon the camp of the Seljuk Turks besieging the city:
"There appeared a fire in the sky, coming from the west, and it approached and fell upon the Turkish army, to the great astonishment of our men [the Crusaders inside Antioch] and of the Turks also. 
In the morning the Turks, who were all scared by the fire, took flight in panic."1 
Here we see how Gog and Magog
"marched across the breath of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. 
But fire came down from heaven and devoured them." (Revelation 20:9)

https://vikingmac.wordpress.com/2020/07/27/preterist-eschatology/
The Anti-Christ 666 Beast, was Nero Caesar.
Nero claimed to be the Sun God Apollo.
In 66AD, the Jews revolted against Rome and coined their own money.
The Greek word translated as mark (of the beast), χάραγμα, also means stamped money, coin or the impress on the coin, hence, "no one buys or sells without the money of the beast."

NT scholar Craig C. Hill suggests that the mark symbolized the all-embracing economic power of Rome, whose very coinage bore the emperor's image and conveyed his claims to divinity (e.g., by including the sun's rays in the ruler's portrait).
Christians from the 1st century refused to carry, look at, or manufacture coins bearing any sort of idolatrous image. It had become increasingly difficult for Christians to function in a world in which public life, including the economic life of the trade guilds, required participation in idolatry.

A Charagma, (χάραγμα-- meaning 'mark, stamp, sign, etc..') was the Greek word used in Revelation 13:16, and had been attributed to the imperial seal of the Roman Empire that was used on official documents during the 1st and 2nd centuries.
In the reign of Emperor Decius (249-251 AD), those who did not possess the certificate of sacrifice to Caesar (Libellus, which you'd receive after burning a pinch of incense and declaring that 'CAESAR IS LORD') could not pursue trades, a prohibition that goes back to Nero Caesar (54-68 AD).
The significance of this imperial seal had been paralleled to Revelation 13:17.

Adela Yarbro Collins further denotes that the refusal to use Roman coins resulted in the condition where "no man might buy or sell."
A similar view is offered by Craig R. Koester,
"As sales were made, people used coins that bore the images of Rome's gods and emperors.
Thus each transaction that used such coins was a reminder that people were advancing themselves economically by relying on political powers that did not recognize the true God."

His name also added up to 616 in Latin, transliterated into Hebrew, which was the number for the Beast in St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate version.
...
If it was a tattooing or a branding that is meant by the Mark of the Beast, this would not be the first time that Israelites had this happen to them.
For example, 3rd Maccabees 2 says that when Ptolemy Philopator conquered the Jews, he forced the survivors to be branded with the sign of his religion.
His edict said this:
"...those who are registered are also to be branded on their bodies by fire with the ivy-leaf symbol of Dionysus" (3 Mac 2:29).

Also, Caesar's own soldiers voluntarily branded themselves with his name or his symbol as a mark of loyalty, submission, and belonging.
Barclay speaks of evidence that soldiers were branded on the hand with the name of their general.
These marks are generally called stigmata.
Aelian (Claudius Aelianus, born c. 170AD, Praeneste [now Palestrina, Italy]-- died c. 235AD), says that soldiers bear their stigmata on their hands: and Ambrose goes onto say that soldiers are signed with the name of their general.

Slavery in Rome existed early on in its developing stages.
For example, in the campaign against the Gauls (59 to 51 BC) it is reported that Julius Caesar and his army captured over a million people and turned them into slaves.
Roman slave-masters would use a hot branding tool to imprint their name into the FOREHEADS of their slaves.
New slave recruits all the way to gladiators in gladiator schools had Roman tattoos (stigma, from where the English word stigmatized derives) applied as an identifying mark on the face, legs and hands.
After Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, a law was passed in 319AD that made it illegal for slave-masters to brand their slaves on the face and instead had to put their mark (hot branded tattoo) on the hands and legs.

Revelation 20
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-20-a-preterist-commentary/
Verses 11-15 describe the Great White Throne of Judgment. 
Here God sits on His throne and judges the righteous and casts the wicked into the lake of fire (v. 15). 
This judgment scene is also predicted in Matthew 25. 
In Matthew 25 Jesus comes in His glory with His mighty angels at the Parousia and sits on His throne (Mt 25:31).
Jesus then separates the righteous (sheep) from the wicked (goats) while sentencing the wicked "to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Mt 25:46)
An identical judgment scene is depicted in Revelation 20:11-15 where the wicked are also judged by God and "thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)
These two judgment scenes took place in A.D. 70 at the climax of the Parousia.

[marie glen]

But then there?s ? Daniel 7 and also 2 compared as to their conclusions ?

7 ? While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three (no one sees it? but the 3 uprooted powers british, spanish and french interests.. and the new little horn that kind of(?) came up in a cluster of nations, Rev.12:14, the chapter, R.12 being a stand alone insert and one of 3 tellings of the revelation vision) three of the first horns were uprooted before it.(As it emerged and grew.) This horn had (develops) eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully (an oFFice it emerges from pinpointed by Rev.13:13, the event not yet? pinpointing a person).

9 And as I looked,

?thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat (?all the world is a stage? - Shakespeare)
His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
    and the books were opened.
11 ?Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time. ?mortal survivors of the totally man done apicalypse)

13 ?In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

15 ?I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.

?So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 ?The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever?yes, for ever and ever.?
19 Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws (iron/bronze is roman/greek roots) ?the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell?the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
26 But the COURT will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.

Dan.2 Nebuchadnezzar?s dream

36 ..This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 ?After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron?for iron breaks and smashes everything?and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay (not western) and partly of iron(western), so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay (unholy collusion) 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 ?In the time of - those - kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an - end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of The Rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands?a Rock that breaks the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. (Aka, mankind?s world kingdoms gone and no more.)
   Other verses, wars ceased and no more.

[marie glen]

Matthew 13:30 is logically Rev.16:13-16

The three mentions of lake of fire are at huge, fiery, earthly events.

Prophecy is fulfilled in scopes, smaller to full scope, like a wheel within a wheel..?

Daniel 12:11,12.. A math problem! About the final abomination that desolates, there?s a treaty (Dn.9:27) and in the middle is broken against Israel (LUKE 19:41,44?!) then3.5 yrs plus 30 days later is set up the final abomination that desolates, this time on the human temple(s) meant for God?s Spirit/Presence? 1Cor.3:16) Math problem, the last - quote, ten days, Rev.2:10 escalating to most critical?

[DavidFord]

https://x.com/David32856757/status/1880358175972683818
"he affirmed everything in the OT"
Including the OT's saying that a New Covenant would replace the Old Covenant?

Jeremiah 31  
https://biblehub.com/niv/jeremiah/31.htm
31 "The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the Lord.
33 "This is the covenant I will make
with the people of Israel after that time,"
declares the Lord.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the Lord.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

=========
"Jesus... proclaimed that all OT Law would still be required until earth passed away"
"Heaven and earth" _did_ pass away.

Revelation 21:1a (NKJV)
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/revelation/21.htm
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.  ...

Jesus prophesied that people would [Luke 21:27, 32]"see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.... Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."  
Did that prophecy come to pass?

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
*6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.*
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be?  and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near:  go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
*20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.*

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
*24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.*
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
*27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.*
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
*32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.*
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

=============
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Including here?:

Revelation 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htm
7 Then war broke out in heaven.
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough,
and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down--
that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan,
who leads the whole world astray.
He was hurled to the earth,
and his angels with him.

========
As you may know, the temple in Jerusalem got destroyed in AD 70.

"Revelation is referring to the future"
Including here?:

Revelation 11:1 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-1.htm
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told,
"Go and measure the temple of God and the altar,
and count the number of worshipers there.

========
"is referring to the future"
Did this happen?:  "you have come to Mount Zion, and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem"

Hebrews 12 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/12.htm
22 But you have come to Mount Zion,
and the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to myriads of angels,
23 and to the assembly,
to the church of the firstborn having been enrolled in the heavens,
and to God the judge of all,
and to the spirits of the righteous having been perfected,
24 and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the sprinkling of blood,
speaking better things than that of Abel.

25 Take heed lest you refuse the One speaking.
For if they did not escape,
having refused the One divinely instructing them on earth,
much less we, turning away from the One from the heavens,
26 whose voice shook the earth at that time;
but now He has promised, saying,
"Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
27 And this, "Yet once more," signifies the removing of the things being shaken,
as having been created,
so that the things not being shaken should remain.

28 Therefore, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken,
we may have grace, by which we may serve God well pleasingly,
with fear and reverence.
29 For also, our God is a consuming fire.

========
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Has the child mentioned here been born yet?:

Revelation 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htm
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven:
an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.
The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth,
so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who
"will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."
And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
...
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth,
he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
...
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman
and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--
those who keep God?s commands
and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

================================
"Revelation is referring to the future"
Regarding
[Rev 17:10]"five [kings] have already fallen, one [king] still lives,"
have any of those kings ruled yet?

Revelation 17 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2017&version=NABRE
9 Here is a clue for one who has wisdom.
The seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits.
They also represent seven kings:
10 five have already fallen, one still lives,
and the last has not yet come,
and when he comes he must remain only a short while.

========
https://x.com/David32856757/status/1880305905096441904
Is there a "new Jerusalem" yet?

Isaiah 65 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/65.htm
17 "See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

Isaiah 65:18 (Good News)
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/65-18.htm
Be glad and rejoice forever in what I create.
The new Jerusalem I make
will be full of joy,
and her people will be happy.

Revelation 21 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/21.htm
1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people,
and he will dwell with them.
They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said,
"I am making everything new!"  ...
9 One of the seven angels
who had the seven bowls
full of the seven last plagues
came and said to me,
"Come, I will show you the bride,
the wife of the Lamb."
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit
to a mountain great and high,
and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God.  ...
22 I did not see a temple in the city,
because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it,
for the glory of God gives it light,
and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light,
and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
25 On no day will its gates ever be shut,
for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

[marie glen]

I think the Revelation vision is told 3times, joining at trumpet 7. I think the seal descriptions at the beginning of the vision, as their full effects, veils a lot of the vision.

Revelation 12 is the middle of the two tellings of the vision

Verse 13:13 was by an office, was the first seal6 (6:12-17) event ?> 7:1,3

The number 6 is the number of man, who?s made up od carbon, which has 6 protons, 6 neutrons, and 6 electrons. So, i.e. apocalypse is all man done, yes even the bowls.. Isaiah 24:20, Rev.10:4? (over -n- out).. yes I counted, first was 13:13/ first seal 6 event.

Rev.12 ?A great sign, a virgin conceives a manchild/Son of man, whom Satan tried to destroy through Herod the Great.. but instead (mission accomplished and) now he?s back at the right hand of God.. Satan was enraged so 70 CE, and dispersion/fleeing. A larger, full scope version/culmination is future. There was war in heaven and Satan&co. are no longer allowed access to heaven.. And enraged again he pursues, persecutes, inquisitions the woman/the faith but she/it is given to two wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to a new place, safe from the face of the adversary for a 3.5 division of time (here, centuries) - roughly 1620 to 1970, when (verse 15) the dragon released a flood (Strong Delusion) in order to was the woman/the faith from off the earth, but yhe earth will swallow the flood ..$ity babble on and on falls, and widespread drought? Then Satan turns his attention (more fully) toward the test of the woman?s children, who have the commandments of God, (by then?) have the testimony of Jesus, Mt.23:39.
   Tge three tellings meet back up at Armageddon battle, concurrent with the seventh trumpet?s sounding ..within which are the fast occurring, simultaneous? bowls. Is.24:20, Rev.10:4.

Tge duration of the notorious triple 6 - Dan.12:11-12 with Luke 29:41,44(?) and 1 Corinthians 3:26 (and Rev.2:10, escalating to most critical the last ?ten days?.

..have to proofread later :icon_jokercolor:

[darryl]

Revelation is a hard book to understand.

[DavidFord]

Jay Rogers, _In the Days of These Kings: The Book of Daniel in Preterist Perspective_ (2024)
https://www.amazon.com/Days-These-Kings-Preterist-Perspective/dp/B0DBFD5HQT/

Jay Rogers, _The Prophecy of Daniel in Preterist Perspective: The Easy Parts and the Hard Parts_ (2024)
https://www.amazon.com/Prophecy-Daniel-Preterist-Perspective-Parts/dp/B0DBPXPHTF/

Milton Terry (1840-1914), _The Apocalypse of John: A Preterist Commentary on the Book of Revelation_
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-John-Preterist-Commentary-Revelation/dp/1734362057/

=========================
"The new Heaven... In due time, when the multitudes out of every generation which I will gather into it, are organized, and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell"

"the New Heaven founded by Christ must have been growing by millions yearly, century after century.
And its energies, abilities, and organizations for good, must be growing and perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying"

_Infoldings and Unfoldings of the Divine Genius in Nature and Man_ by John Pulsford (1887), 108pp., on 37-40
https://www.amazon.com/Infoldings-unfoldings-divine-genius-nature/dp/B013HXXNWI/
https://archive.org/details/infoldingsunfold00puls/page/n1/mode/2up
IX. The new Heaven, of which I am the Foundation and the Beginning, is of necessity _central_.
It is central because it comprehends more than any former Heaven ; and will be more potent for good.
In due time, when the multitudes out of every generation which I will gather into it, are organized, and operate as one Divine Energy, its influence will reach to the ends of sin, and to the depths of Hell.
Such is the Father's plan for His House, that in its centre every virtue and peculiarity should be represented, and that it should have power over all evil, and bear an equal relationship to His fallen and unfallen races.

X. We know not at what rate other heavens are growing : many of them may be comparatively stationary.
But the New Heaven founded by Christ must have been growing by millions yearly, century after century.
And its energies, abilities, and organizations for good, must be growing and perfecting as rapidly as its population is multiplying.
If young men and women could be got to dwell upon it, nothing is so fitted to kindle their lofty and pure enthusiasm as the prospect of emigration to this Kingdom of kingdoms,-- the Kingdom of the Incarnation in redeemed humanity.
The highest places and honours of the political world are not worthy of the soul's enthusiasm ; but the final kingdom of humanity is quite worthy of the soul's loftiest passion.

XI. The kingdoms of Europe, including our own, and indeed the kingdoms of the whole world, are in ceaseless effort to make themselves invulnerable ; and at the same time are shaking with fear ; because they are aiming at the impossible, namely, to make kingdoms secure, which in their character and order are utterly opposed to the Kingdom of the Human race which the Father of men is forming in the heavens.
It is worse than useless to shirk the fact that the kings of the earth and the rulers are not moving in unison with, but against "The Lord and His Christ."
But because He is Man, according to God, Ideal Man, and Ideal King, His throne and the Kingdom which is grown round about His throne, disturb, and will disturb, and eventually overcome, all antagonistic rule and authority.
The myriads whom He has drawn into sympathy with Himself, constitute the only "Kingdom which cannot be moved."

This is the Kingdom which all Christ-lovers are receiving down into their souls ; and which makes us calm and confident amid all the heavings and convulsions of the nations.
The Divine human race is destined to break up, supersede, and supplant the undivine race.
Every man and woman added to the Kingdom increases its power ; and increases, likewise, the momentum with which its power moves downward into the souls of men, and into the air of the world.

XII. This new Kingdom of the Race growing in the Heavens can do nothing less than subdue the world to itself.
Think of the incalculable number of men and women who are already in it ; and who, from the depth of their sympathy with Christ, make one Power : think farther, that in every one of them, the immutable Nature of God is built up ; and you will not be able to doubt that in the end the kingdoms of this world will become one Brotherhood of men under God.

Wherefore, we pray you to foresee the decreed end to which things are coming ; and draw down the elements of your new, immutable, all victorious humanity into your souls.
You cannot belong to the Divine kingdom of our race nor go into it, unless first the Kingdom comes into you.
Love, Incorruption, Certainty, Joy, Eternity, are in the Kingdom : receive its descending Power.
Inbreathe the Divine Man's Breath, and you are His.
Remember His words : "I will come and receive you to Myself."

Receiving you to Himself means your entrance into your own home and among your own people, in the midst of the men and women, who like you having loved, lived, suffered, and died, on earth, have found death to be a birth into the Divine and Eternal human life.

XIII.  ...

[DavidFord]

Keith Giles, _Sola Deus: What If God Is All of Us?_ (2023), 149pp., on 99-100
https://www.amazon.com/Sola-Deus-What-God-All/dp/B0CL5FXB6H/
My conclusion [in _Jesus Unexpected_] was that everyone would eventually come face-to-face with Christ because we would all die in a few short years, and in that way, we would all live forever in Christ's Kingdom which was beyond space and time.
But a few friends pushed back and asked me to add an epilogue that gave us some hope for an eventual New Heaven and New Earth here on this planet.
So, I thought about it and decided that, sure, why not, I could envision a potential outcome where God's Kingdom plan finally comes to be on this planet and, eventually, at some point in the future, physical humanity comes to embody the reality of Christ's Kingdom here.
Yet, I still can't understand why so many of us insist on the physical fulfillment of such things.
As if being alive in the presence of Christ is only "real" if we're all in physical bodies of flesh and bone.
I... don't understand that.
What is "real" is most likely so far beyond our ability to comprehend or imagine that, in comparison, this physical reality we're in now is most likely about as "real" as a child's crayon drawing hanging on someone's refrigerator.

[DavidFord]

"It's been 2000 more years of murder covenants ever since then.
That does not fully yet fulfill the fullness of Isaiah 2:4"
Agreed, if one is looking at the earth.
However, in the New Jerusalem there isn't any war,
and peoples from various nations are totally at peace with each other.

Isaiah 2:4 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/2-4.htm
He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

Revelation 21 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/revelation/21.htm
1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth,"
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem,
coming down out of heaven from God,
prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying,
"Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people,
and he will dwell with them.
They will be his people,
and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
There will be no more death'
or mourning or crying or pain,
for the old order of things has passed away."

John 18:36 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/john/18-36.htm
Yeshua said to him,
"My Kingdom is not from this world;
if my Kingdom were of this world,
my servants would be fighting that
I would not have been delivered up to the Judeans,
but now my Kingdom is not from here."

[DavidFord]

Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:

typo fix
https://x.com/christfulfilled/status/1894886801921523911
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1894886801921523911.html
We are not in the last days,
and will never be in the last days.
Many people do not know about the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32),
let alone its implications for our understanding of NT eschatology.
Let's break it down a little bit:  [thread pic]

Before the Israelites entered the promised land, Moses spoke this prophetic Song to them.
In the song, Moses warns the people against turning to idols and foretells of a future generation in Israel-- a "perverse and crooked generation" (v. 5)-- who will be utterly corrupt, faithless, perverse, and adulterous.
In the song, God says that he will bring Israel's "latter end" (Deut. 32:29) upon this corrupt generation.
He will avenge the blood of his servants on apostate Israel, and the nations, together with the angels of heaven (an LXX tradition preserves this while the MT erased it because divine council theology made some Israelite monotheists uncomfortable), will sing with God's people for his saving acts (Deut. 32:43).

Jesus often referred to his generation by quoting the Song of Moses.
He called his generation a "perverse generation" (Matt. 17:17), directly quoting the Song of Moses.
He called it an "adulterous generation," (Matt. 12:39) echoing God's warning to Moses that Israel would play the harlot in the last days (Deut. 31:16).
And significantly, Jesus told the Jewish leadership of his day that the righteous blood of all the righteous ever shed on earth would fall upon them, in "this generation," in the desolation of their house (Matt. 23:34-38).
Without a doubt, the generation foretold by the Song of Moses had arrived.

Further, when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, Peter pleaded with his audience in Jerusalem to "save" themselves from "this crooked generation," again quoting the Song of Moses (Acts 2:40).
Two of the main themes of the book of Acts is the Jews [better:  Yehudians] shedding the blood of Christians, as well as the Jews [better:  Yehudians] making the Temple and nation their idol.
The Song foretold that in the latter end, Israel's final generation would be more idolatrous than any previous one, and shed innocent blood.

In Revelation 19, after the fall of Mystery Babylon-- the city guilty of Jesus' blood (Rev. 11:8), the blood of all prophets, and the blood of Jesus' apostles (Rev. 18:24)-- the angels of heaven sing praises to God, and they invite God's people to do the same.
Heaven even quotes the Song of Moses-- "HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER" (v. 2)-- to speak of the vindication God has wrought on behalf of his persecuted people.
And just like the Song said, the nations (Rev. 7:9), the righteous within Israel (Rev. 14:1ff), and the angels of heaven (Rev. 19:1ff) all worship God for what he has done in enacting his judgment on the great "harlot."
God has brought the "latter end" upon her.

What this means:
-Mystery Babylon was first-century Jerusalem
-We are not, and will never be in the last days. They have come and gone.
-The wedding of the Lamb has come, which means the kingdom and new creation have come in glory.
They are not physical realities, but the new covenant world brought to reality through the finished work of Christ.
-The Song of Moses is the template for NT eschatology.

[DavidFord]

Do you see any flaws in this analysis?:

https://x.com/christfulfilled/status/1810761194724270208
The internal and external evidence for a pre-70 dating of the Revelation is extremely strong.

The traditional external evidence for the post-70 dating is convincing at first but upon scrutiny isn't as strong as it first seems.

Every testimony of a post-70 dating after Irenaeus got their information from him. Victorinus in the 4th century AD did not have magical abilities that enabled him to date the book accurately, nor did he have divine knowledge on the matter. He was holding up what was the traditional, and I would add reasonable, view to hold. This tradition originated with Irenaeus, a 2nd century Church writer. To be brief, there is a lot of debate over the translation of Irenaeus' words. Obviously, the common English translation is to render him as saying that "John saw" the Apocalypse during the reign of Domitian. But there is linguistic grounds for the view that really, it should be rendered that John, the writer of Apocalypse, had last been seen during the reign of Domitian. I hold to this view. But even if Irenaeus did say that John saw the vision under Domitian's reign, that doesn't negate the stronger internal and external evidence for pre-70 dating. If Irenaeus did express a post-70 dating view, his would be the only unique and independently attested testimony to that effect (this isn?t even taking into account that Irenaeus was wrong on several other key historical data, such as Jesus? age when he died). The contents of the book of Revelation and other external evidence strongly point to a pre-70 dating.

Internal evidence:

Martyr vindication. A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication. Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*, beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets, and his own future apostles and prophets, would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23).

Babylon. The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove. Segueing from martyr vindication, Babylon was the city guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on earth," which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23. A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19). This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened (unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)

Temple still standing. In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing. This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.

John's Olivet discourse. The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70.

Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. Revelation bares several key similarities with other apostolic written communications of the pre-70 period. For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree. John, writing to 7 premier churches in Asia minor, warned them of a coming "fiery trial" (Rev. 3:10). Peter, writing to the same exact churches (1Peter 1:1ff), comforted them and told them not to be alarmed about the "fiery trial" that *has already come upon them.* This strongly indicates Revelation was written before 1 Peter, thus before AD 70.

Israel's Festal Imagery in the book. Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel's rich festal calendar. One such allusion is the 144,000 redeemed saints of Israel being the "first fruits" redeemed by God from among men (Rev 14:1-5). They were the first generation of Christians, in other words. This precludes a post-70 dating. Not only that, but they are said to have gone through the "great tribulation" and have overcome the Beast and his image. Jesus posited the great tribulation for his own generation in Matthew 24, directly linking it to the fall of the city and the temple in AD 70. Why would John write about a generation of Christians from 30 years prior, saying they had overcome the beast and gone through the tribulation leading up to the fall of the Temple in AD 70 when those things had nothing to do with what was going on in AD 96?

External evidence:
1) You cited Victorinus. While he did take the late date view, he also acknowledged and even suggested the pre-70 date in his commentary. Again we must keep in mind the late date tradition was a single strand tradition that began with Irenaeus.
2) The Muratorian fragments contain a copy of Revelation from the 2nd century, which is highly suggestive the book was copied several times already and had already been in circulation for a while.
3) Clement of Alexandria (2nd century) said that many prominent church leaders believed Revelation was written under Nero.

4) While Eusebius accepted the Irenaeus tradition, he noted that many Christians believed Revelation was written under Claudius (AD 41-54).
5) Papyrus 115 contains a 3rd century copy of Revelation that says the number of the beast is 616, which seemingly confirms identification with Nero.
6) Revelation is a book of visions and prophecies concerning the fulfillment of the "mystery of God" that he spoke to his servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7). Jesus said that all the prophets had written would be fulfilled in his days (Luke 21:22).

[DavidFord]

"Internal evidence:
Martyr vindication.
A common theme in the book is the hope [of] martyr vindication.
Jesus said that all the martyrs in *human history*,
beginning with Abel, and including the OT prophets,
and his own future apostles and prophets,
would be avenged in his generation at the fall of the Temple (Matthew 23)."

> This does not support pre-70 composition.
> Martyrdom occurred, probably to a greater extent, post-70.

Do you think Jesus said this?:

Matthew 23 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/matthew/23.htm
34 Because of this, behold,
I send to you prophets
and wise _men_ and scribes.
Some of them you will kill and will crucify,
and _some_ of them you will flog in your synagogues,
and will persecute from town to town;
35 so that upon you shall come all _the_
righteous blood being poured out upon the earth,
from the blood of the righteous Abel
to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah,
whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 Truly I say to you,
all these things will come upon this generation.

"Babylon.
The description of Babylon fits 1st century Jerusalem as hand in glove.
Segueing from martyr vindication,
Babylon was the city guilty of 'all the righteous blood shed on earth,'
which again, Jesus identified as Jerusalem in Matthew 23.
A core theme of Revelation is the fall of this apostate, adulterous city (Rev. 6, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19).
This strongly indicates to us that John wrote before this happened
(unless we deny inspiration and the ability of a prophet from God to predict the future)"

> Rome is a much better candidate as a
> city guilty of all the righteous blood shed on earth.

Was Rome involved in:
"the blood of the righteous Abel"?
"the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah"?
Jesus-sent "wise _men_ and scribes... flog[ged] in... synagogues"?

"Temple still standing.
In Revelation 11, the Jerusalem temple is depicted as still standing.
This is impossible in a post-70 dating view.
John's Olivet discourse.
The elements of Revelation are ultimately just an expanded version of the Olivet discourse accounts found in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
The Olivet discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70."

> Revelation also describes the destruction of the temple,
> which is merely _vaticinium ex eventu_.

Which Revelation verse are you looking at?
In your view, when was this written?:

Revelation 11 (Berean Standard)
https://biblehub.com/bsb/revelation/11.htm
1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told,
"Go and measure the temple of God and the altar,
and count the number of worshipers there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple.
Do not measure it,
because it has been given over to the nations,
and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Also, when was this written?:

Revelation 17:10 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/17-10.htm
They are also seven kings.
Five have fallen,
one is,
the other has not yet come;
but when he does come,
he must remain for only a little while.

> I don't deny inspiration or the ability of people
> to sometimes predict the future,
> but critical scholarship cannot merely presume this.

Are you aware of any instances of where:

Jesus successfully "predict[ed] the future"?
Daniel successfully "predict[ed] the future"?

Jesus make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?
Daniel make a prediction that turned out to be mistaken/ erroneous/ not-fulfilled?

Jesus is quoted as making an after-the-event 'prediction' about an event that had already occurred?
Daniel is quoted as making an after-the-event 'prediction' about an event that had already occurred?

"Relationship with Pre-70 apostolic letters. ...
For example, 1 Peter was written before AD 70 as the vast majority of people agree."

> The vast majority of critical scholars disagree.

"Israel's Festal Imagery in the book.
Revelation is littered with allusions and echoes of Israel's rich festal calendar. ..."

> Do you also date the Talmud to pre-70 CE?

=========================
Francis Gumerlock, _Revelation and the First Century (Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity)_ (2012)
https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Interpretations-Apocalypse-Christianity-2012-08-02/dp/B01K3KSXT6/
https://store.americanvision.org/collections/catalog/products/revelation-and-the-first-century
Among the many new insights gained in this book, you will read from many early and medieval Christians who believed:
. John wrote Revelation before A.D. 70
. "The hour of testing" (Rev 3:10) occurred immediately after the death of Nero
. The Emperor Titus was one of the horsemen of the Apocalypse
. The seal and trumpet judgments were fulfilled in the first century Roman-Judean war
. The Roman Emperor Nero was the beast of Revelation 13
. Nero's name was used in calculation of the number of the beast, 666

_New Testament Eschatology: What the Early Church Believed About Bible Prophecy_, formerly titled _The Early Church and the End of the World_
https://www.amazon.com/Early-Church-End-World/dp/0915815583/
https://store.americanvision.org/collections/catalog/products/new-testament-eschatology-what-the-early-church-believed-about-bible-prophecy
The evidence shows that many early church writers understood the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 to be the end of the Old Covenant world.

[DavidFord]

Do you see any flaws in this reasoning?:

Alex Polyak, _The End is Here:  How the New Testament's Prophecies were Fulfilled_ (2024), 530pp., on 444
https://www.amazon.com/End-Here-Testaments-Prophecies-Fulfilled/dp/B0DMTZTFJM/
Second, if the temple/city had already been destroyed, John, the author of Revelation, would have said so!
The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was one of Jesus's most important and significant prophecies, so had it been fulfilled, John would have certainly mentioned it.
In fact, he likely would have touted the fulfillment as proof that Jesus was the prophet he claimed to be.
Just think about how many times the New Testament writers said things like,
"This was done in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy" (Matt. 12:17) and,
"This happened to fulfill what was said by the prophet" (Matt. 1:22).
John surely would have done the same kind of thing!

[DavidFord]

It's internally inconsistent to say that both
1) Jesus prophesied by around AD 30 what's prophesied in Matthew 24, and those prophecies were grossly mistaken,
and
2) Matthew 24 consist of remarks that were bogusly-ascribed to Jesus after AD 70.

https://ehrmanblog.org/was-jesus-a-false-prophet/
BDEhrman May 8, 2023 at 8:45 pm
Apart from the seven "undisputed" letters of Paul, all the books of the NT are generally thought to have been written after 70 CE;
intimations of the destruction of the temple can be found in all four Gospels;  ...

BDEhrman May 5, 2023 at 2:17 pm
Jesus preached lots of things, based on many ideas, views, interpretations of Scripture, and so on;
one aspectd of that was a prediction that he got wrong.
I'd be OK probalby with saying he made a false prophecy...

[DavidFord]

Bertrand Russell, _Why I Am Not A Christian_
https://archive.org/details/why-i-am-not-a-christian/page/15/mode/2up?q=clouds
Page 16
... Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about Him, so that I am not concerned with the historical question, which is a very difficult one.
I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise.
For one thing, He certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time.
There are a great many texts that prove that.
He says, for instance, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come."
Then He says, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom";
and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living.

Rabbi David Blumofe, in
"Who is Jesus.?  Dr Michael l brown vs Rabbi David Blumofe," 25:19+
https://youtu.be/M1L-YQDXxEY
Matthew 16:28 "There will be some of those who are standing here"--
this is Jesus saying this--
"who will not taste death until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
In other words, they will not die until they see him coming again.
But it's been 2,000 years and he hasn't come-- I'm sure they're dead by now.
...
"this generation shall not pass until these things be fulfilled"--
and the generation certainly passed after two thousand years.  
...
"Ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"--
yet these priests were dead for at least nineteen hundred years.

hat tip
_The End is Here_, 2.

[DavidFord]

Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?

Matthew liked to tout supposed fulfillments of prophecy:

"prophet" in KJV Matthew, with snips
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=prophet&begin=47&end=47&resultspp=100
added Matthew 13:14 after searching for "fulfilled" in KJV Matthew
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=fulfilled&begin=47&end=47&resultspp=100
Matthew 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Matthew 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Matthew 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

[DavidFord]

I'm unaware of any gospel writer touting the Temple's AD 70 destruction as having been a fulfillment of Jesus' saying the Temple would be utterly destroyed.
This despite Mathew, Luke, and John chalking up many events as somehow being fulfillments of prior writings and sayings.
If at the time of writing the gospels, the gospel writers didn't yet know of the Temple's AD 70 destruction, that would account for their failure to mention the Temple's destruction as a fulfillment of Jesus' saying it would be destroyed.

John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

"fulfilled" in KJV NT, augmented with "prophet," with snips
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=fulfilled&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=prophet&begin=47&end=73&resultspp=250
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Acts 8
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.  ...
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Acts 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 15
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Acts 26
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

[DavidFord]

What if anything that's below did Jesus actually say?

Mark 14 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/14.htm
48 "Am I leading a rebellion," said Jesus,
"that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me?
49 Every day I was with you,
teaching in the temple courts,
and you did not arrest me.
But the Scriptures must be fulfilled."
50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.
...
60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus,
"Are you not going to answer?
What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?"
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him,
"Are you the Messiah,
the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus.
"And you will see the Son of Man
sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One
and coming on the clouds of heaven."
63 The high priest tore his clothes.
"Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked.
64 "You have heard the blasphemy.
What do you think?"
They all condemned him as worthy of death.

=====================
Mark 8 - Mark 9:1 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/8.htm
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/9.htm
27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi.
On the way he asked them,
"Who do people say I am?"
28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 "But what about you?" he asked.
"Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered,
"You are the Messiah."
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things
and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,
and that he must be killed
and after three days rise again.
32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter.
"Get behind me, Satan!" he said.
"You do not have in mind the concerns of God,
but merely human concerns."

34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said:
"Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it,
but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.
36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world,
yet forfeit their soul?
37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation,
the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
9:1 And he said to them,
"Truly I tell you,
some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

=====================
Mark 13 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/mark/13.htm
1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him,
"Look, Teacher!
What massive stones!
What magnificent buildings!"
2 "Do you see all these great buildings?"
replied Jesus.
"Not one stone here will be left on another;
every one will be thrown down."
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple,
Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 "Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

5 Jesus said to them:
"Watch out that no one deceives you.
6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,'
and will deceive many.
7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars,
do not be alarmed.
Such things must happen,
but the end is still to come.
8 Nation will rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines.
These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 "You must be on your guard.
You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues.
On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial,
do not worry beforehand about what to say.
Just say whatever is given you at the time,
for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 "Brother will betray brother to death,
and a father his child.
Children will rebel against their parents
and have them put to death.
13 Everyone will hate you because of me,
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong?
let the reader understand?
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out.
16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,
19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now?
and never to be equaled again.

20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
21 At that time if anyone says to you,
'Look, here is the Messiah!' or,
'Look, there he is!'
do not believe it.
22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear
and perform signs and wonders
to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 So be on your guard;
I have told you everything ahead of time.
24 "But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

26 "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect
from the four winds,
from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree:
As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out,
you know that summer is near.
29 Even so, when you see these things happening,
you know that it is near, right at the door.
30 Truly I tell you,
this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will never pass away.

32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard! Be alert!
You do not know when that time will come.
34 It's like a man going away:
He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task,
and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 "Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back?
whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.
36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

[marie glen]

Are you aware of any gospel writers touting the destruction of the Jerusalem temple as being a fulfillment of a prophecy by Jesus?

I think you?re right no one touted it because it hadn?t happened yet.. the smaller, more immediate fulfillment. What I always think of is how John the Baptist said to the irreligious/political pharisees that the axe was already at the bottom of the tree, which is how a tree is axed.. you tap it first and then the first swing of the axe.. And that was roughly forty years before 70 a.d. /CE. (In the same way the pauSe in Rev.7 seems long to us.. no one sees because the seals are described at the beginning of the vision as their full and entire effects throughout the entire years of our Lord CE. Then the sixth seal and 7:1,3 become clearer? As the first fiery seal 6 event, which is also 13:13 but pinpoints an office not person (yet anyway). And 13:13 can be the first seal 6 event, (ch. 6:12-17) because the vision is told three times, 6:1-2 to 11:19; ch.12 w/ mt.23:39; and 13:1 to 19:11. Rejoining at the 7the trumpet. Which of course is the culmination of all the seals, especially seal 6 (seven thunders? yes I counted - rumbling, loud noise, sky rolling like a scroll, lightning, great hail. Rev.10:4 (ten four, over and out).
  The higher moisture rises the greater and larger the hail.. thermonuclear lightning.. Now back to fiery 70 CE.. All of it, more than enough FIERY judgment, aka, consequences, results, God?s ?wrath? being cause and effect. And no one seems to see what a burning crucible this imperfrction/straying is. Ever had a compost pile? In a cartoon it would be portrayed with steam rising because it heats up. It?s a slow fade. Entropy. Hot flashes of life as we presently know it. The dis ease as part of the cure? God iS Life, the life force, and (quote) is Perfect so straying in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, which is this entropy, this slow gehenna ..that flares up into fiery judgments large and small, collective and individual.
    So.. I figure the axe is at the root of the entire tree.. Dn.2:34,35. Then a millennial Sabbath rest from enmity.. then his fieRy final defeat after he gathers descendants of mortal survivors of the totally man done apocalypse to surround the millennial Jerusalem for war. This is where there is the second of three mentions of a lake of fire.. Think sparks when the axe strikes the root/trunk of the tree. First is at armageddon battle, last at the fieRy palin/againgenesis Rev.21:1-5 and note in vs 5 the word things is inserted (to greek pas - all).
   The millennial gathering to war is during first half of an “8th day” millennial day.
Back to first mention of lake of fire. Mt.13:30 is Rev.16:14-15-16 Logic!! Root word of which is logos. Also is Mt.25:1-13(10) to serving called reigning during the Lords long second advent, full scope version of His first so brief one? (Crowns of Life, not metal, the metals are mortal mankind’s empires, Dn.2:36-45; 7:7,19.

[DavidFord]

When in a parable wise virgins acted on the call to "come out to meet" the bridegroom, did the bridegroom:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party "to the wedding banquet"?

Matthew 25 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/25.htm
1 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be
like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
...
5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 "At midnight the cry rang out:
'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
...
10 "But while they [the foolish virgins] were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived.
The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet.
And the door was shut.

======================
When "Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him," and Judeans accompanied Mary to Jesus, did Jesus:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party to the tomb of Lazarus?

John 11 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/john/11.htm
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days,
7 and then he said to his disciples,
"Let us go back to Judea."
...
17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.
18 Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem...
20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. ...
27 "Yes, Lord," she [Martha] replied, "I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."
28 After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside.
"The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you."
29 When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him.
30 Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him.
31 When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
...
34 "Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

=======================
When Paul had not yet entered Rome, and some people traveled from Rome to meet him, did Paul:
leave the region?
accompany the welcoming party to Rome?

Acts 28 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/acts/28.htm
14 There we found some brothers and sisters who invited us to spend a week with them.
And so we came to Rome.
15 The brothers and sisters there had heard that we were coming,
and they traveled as far as the Forum of Appius and the Three Taverns to meet us.
At the sight of these people Paul thanked God and was encouraged.
16 When we got to Rome, Paul was allowed to live by himself, with a soldier to guard him.

=======================
When "Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem" and a "great crowd"/ "many people" "took palm branches and went out to meet him," did Jesus:
eventually arrive at Jerusalem?
leave the area with the crowd, never making it to Jerusalem?

John 12 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/john/12.htm
12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the festival heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem.
13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!" ...
18 Many people, because they had heard that he had performed this sign [of raising Lazarus from the dead], went out to meet him.

=======================
When "the Lord himself will come down from heaven," and "we who are still alive and are left" are "caught up together with" "the dead in Christ" "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," will Jesus:
leave earth?
accompany the welcoming party to earth?

1 Thessalonians 4 (NIV)
https://biblehub.com/niv/1_thessalonians/4.htm
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that
we who are still alive,
who are left until the coming of the Lord,
will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord forever.

========================
hat tip
Barbara Rossing, _The Rapture Exposed:  The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation_ (2004), 222pp., on 174-177
https://www.amazon.com/Rapture-Exposed-Message-Hope-Revelation/dp/0813343143/

[DavidFord]

Robert H. Gundry, _The Church and the Tribulation_ (1973), 224pp., on 187, 188
https://www.amazon.com/Church-Tribulation-Biblical-Examination-Posttribulationism/dp/0310254019/
https://archive.org/details/churchtribulatio0000gund/page/186/mode/2up?q=broadcast
https://archive.org/details/churchtribulatio0000gund/page/188/mode/2up?q=fifth
Page 187
Broadcast by Darby's six visits to America and by the extensive literature campaign of the Brethren and other writers under their influence, pretribulationism spread rapidly.
Today some argue that the popularity of pretribulationism has derived from the upsurge of Bible study during the last hundred years.
However, the majority believe what they are taught.

Page 188
We may summarize the historical arguments:

First, the eschatological chronology of the early Church displays enough detail to have included an imminent, pretribulational rapture in its premillennial scheme had pretribulationism been held as the apostolic doctrine.

Second, all the early fathers who touch upon final events speak with an explicitly posttribulational accent and assume this to be universal language in orthodox Christianity.

Third, the early Church did not hold to the imminence of Jesus' return.
Most of the passages cited in favor of imminence exhibit in the immediate context an expectation of passage through the tribulation.
The few and isolated remaining passages use no stronger language than the Scripture itself employs in admittedly posttribulational passages.

Fourth, the early Church received its doctrine directly from the apostles.
If the earliness of posttribulationism does not indicate apostolicity, neither can we say that the earliness of premillennialism indicates apostolocity.
And if the late origin of a- and postmillennialism indicates human invention, the still later origin of pretribulationism indicates the same.

Fifth, the premillennialism and futurism revived after the Reformation was posttribulational.

Sixth, pretribulationism did not become known and widely held until the mid-nineteenth century.

In view of the foregoing, we ought to regard pretribulationism as a late innovation, not an extension or refinement of the doctrine of the early Church.
By adding to the burden of proof which pretribulationism is unable to bear in scriptural exegesis, the historical argument confirms posttribulationism.