Jesus Returned in Power and Glory

[jabcat]

which are preterist and futurist..

Gary told me once in a phone conversation that he wasn't against the idea of some things having "double fulfillment";  i.e., some things having had occurred at an earlier time, and perhaps some sort of future occurrence as well.  I don't recall what the specific details were we had been discussing, so I'm not sure what all he might have applied that to.   

:Peace2:

[DavidFord]

"how did Jesus come back around A.D. 70" 
On the clouds, with power and great glory.
"wasn't the plan to rebuild the temple, not destroy it?"
Jesus didn't want Jerusalem (and its temple) destroyed (see below), but not enough people listened to him.  The devil-- a thief who steals kills and destroys-- in cooperation with wayward people, brought destruction to Jerusalem and its temple.  God rebuilt Jerusalem's temple as a spiritual temple that exists in the spiritual realm (a realm that's more-real than the physical, typically-observed-by-humans realm).  Jesus is the foundation of that spiritual temple, and _everybody_ in the world is invited to enter that temple-- no restrictions.

Matthew 23 (NKJV)
31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "

'if Christ came back in A.D. 70 why are people still looking up at the sky and waiting?'
Most people know little about Jesus' predictions to his early followers about his return in their generation, and know little about Jerusalem's history in A.D. 67-70.  Perhaps there are reasons to think Jesus returns more than once.
Some adherents of Judaism are still awaiting the arrival of a Messiah.  Perhaps they're unfamiliar with the evidence that the Messiah came, and is Jesus.
"I love Matt 23" 
It is quite robust in its critique of hypocrisy. 
What's your opinion about Jesus?  Was he:  the Messiah?  God?  Did he live, die, and get resurrected?

[sheila]

yes,He would have shown her the way of peace..and reconciliation with God...He come to save her...she suffered loss..eventhough

saved as through fire.a branch snatched[raptured] from the fire[because of His great love ye sons of men[spirits]are not consumed

some build with wood stone,hay..houses built by the hands of men..[ye have Moses to judge ye]

Now it is the fullness of the gentiles..and the call to'come out of her my people"do we reject His word to Bless and curse not?

judge not and ye shall not be judged?

lest ye receive of her plagues,war/famine/wild beasts/disease...Heed the Holy spirit..therock was struck twice..the wordof Godcome

inflesh put to death's testimony..and the holy spirit 's testimony put to death[2 witnesses][double desolation]SPEAK TO THE ROCK


who can abide the day of His coming..purger/refiner's  fire

   the birthright/Blessing........Jacob in Laban's house,Joseph in Egypt,Daniel in Babylon

a people dwelling in the center of the earth..without wall..recovered from war[with the dragon] with much livestock[men of little

understanding]man with His free gift of eternal life.....Rev 20;9 :2c:

  there are 12 degrees of light..of which the natural is the first level/degree

 

[sheila]

 :2c:the natural being the first level..because we wrestle not flesh and blood...although it certainly appeared in the flesh that Jesus

and the disciples were dealing with flesh men[rulers of heaven-pharisees/sadducees/sanhedren/rulers/kings of earth]

But in actuality it was unseen principalities and powers manifesting in the flesh of the men they controlled/possessed and held

captive to their will. As it was the spirit of God in Jesus..and the holy spirit in His followers.

the son of perdition[spirit]will always lead men to their destruction..and cut them off from the spirit of Christ/God.......until the

Court sits..and the time comes for the overcome saints to receive the kingdom..and Christ /God snatches them from the flames

the very jaws of death...and satan loses what he thinks he had. God does turn over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..thosehard-hearted

andstiff-necked.arrogant people..in order that their spirit be saved....and then snatches such from the hands of the enemy.there

are 'orders' of assembly of our spirits in heaven..some come in last.in their generation.  Those of the second heaven and 5th being so

bound,[Enoch]

by these evil spirits.Just as those who receive the token of the Holy spirit..are as Christ in this world,so,too,those who partake

as sharers with the demons. But,God/Christ has blessed all men..and because of this...allmen are appointed to die once......

and will not partake of the secound death LOF...for we know men are NOT cut off,forever..but death/perdition/satan/demons  are...


further meditations.......fallen away angels[devils]lead the saints into a ditch[abyss]..when released from the abyss..they

go forth to deceive all the nations[gentilechurches]...and then surround the camp of the Holy city God loves[man with his free gift of

eternal life in the spirit]..because the wicked encompass the righteous..right judgement goes not forth..all these erroneous gospels

doctrines etc war against the mind of the man.another degree of light is man's spirit with free gitft of eternal life and surrounded

of a weak sinful flesh[sin so easy entagles us]bodyof death that can not inherit.

   there are those bound underthe earth[2ndheaven]and those  bound onthe5th heaven[Enoch] and these satan and his demons

will manifest in some mens flesh that they possess..  Cain..whose face fell because his offering was not acceptable to God..and killed

Abel...the jealous sadducees,pharisees,Judas who were jealous and killed him whose offering was acceptable.Satans offering is

not acceptable to God..constant accusing,decieving,lying with a hard heart full of hate and pride.constantly tempting God

and man made in God's image.laying traps/snares....

I've gone on more than I meant to......

[sheila]

 :2c: a little more on woman in a basket...Babylon has become a cage of unclean birds[spirits]

no-one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket.

but if the 'light' that be in you be darkness....

for satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light

[marie glen]

which are preterist and futurist..

Gary told me once in a phone conversation that he wasn't against the idea of some things having "double fulfillment";  i.e., some things having had occurred at an earlier time, and perhaps some sort of future occurrence as well.  I don't recall what the specific details were we had been discussing, so I'm not sure what all he might have applied that to.   

:Peace2:

I agree! I've thought that for a long time..

[GodIsLove]

David, Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...

In the same way that people who believe in hell won't let their mind even think of universal salvation because the Bible "obviously" and "plainly" states there is a hell.

But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.

But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.

You mentioned many of them already so I won't go into the "evidence" because it's up to everyone to decide for themselves, search it out (or not), or God to reveal things to people in his timing.

To me it aligns with how many didn't believe Jesus was the messiah because he didn't come, do, say, or act how they *expected* the messiah to act so they rejected him, in the same way his second coming was also not how people expected it to happen, but if you look at his own words, there are just too many passages that show that his return had to be within the first century, and had to happen in the way it did, because of the plain rendering of his words. It's funny, but to me it actually is the most literal interpretation of the passages, especially given Jewish prophetic and apocalyptic writing style.

I believe the spiritual to be more real than the material, but I also believe that Jesus's return was described both spiritually and materially and they both happened simultaneously. 

I also believe the kingdom is happening simultaneously, spiritually and materially. That is why it is the "new heaven/new earth" (spiritual/material).

I believe we are all participating in leavening the whole lump, to slowly bring forth the kingdom.

[marie glen]

Broadly speaking, the Messiah will be a descendant of King David who, in the future, will reign over a peaceful and prosperous Israel.

...and (we know it) will fill the Earth.. made up of Israel - which is the born into Israel by natural birth - plus belief in/following Jesus, and the born into Israel by being born again, and "grafted into" the 'tree' called Israel.  :cloud9:

..The Temple has been rebuilt in the spiritual realm (Rev 21:9-10), and the stone-- Jesus-- the builders rejected has become its cornerstone.

I never thought of that as referring to bible prophecy! But I've not thought a literal 3rd temple would be built in Jerusalem prior to Jesus' return.. but I think of the verse which says the AC one (supposedly an individual, but Rev. 13:13 pinpoints an office not an individual (occurred in 1945, surely?!) seats himself in the seat of God declaring himself as god (little g, the faith, teaching prophecy, yes,teaching! (A belief) which includes prophecy->(huge n big as ya please! :doh: ) ...a belief, theory which implies/declares man to be the highest power..

And the verse in Daniel about setting his palace in the holy land (wrong wording, sorry) was fulfilled in the days of the Maccabees.. Daniel 8:9-14 -- the goat being Greece, and the four horns/generals of Alexander inherited and then two of the horns (particularly) made war.. Antiochus Epiphany then fulfilling those verses perfectly. And it talks about, in the chapter, "in the latter time of their kingdom".. Although in chapter 11 we have him again, but also the last AC. Oy.

Daniel's visions as we know, are not in historical order, because the one about the latter days of this age and kingdoms is in chapter 7, especially verses 7 & 19 which describes a 'beast' (governing) that cross references with that one of Rev. 13:1-10, having ten horns, etc. (ten seats? like the little beast of verses 11-18 has two horns? the event of 13:13 pinpointing an office, not an individual as so widely believed.. white rabbit, white rabbit! Sorry :laughing7: I'm reminding myself that I am fast sliding into one of my favorite rabbit holes. _{and can rattle on a bit..} But! I have to include this, verse 19 cross references back to the dream statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream! ...oh.. that book of Daniel.. fascinating. I'm a lot behind when it comes to the other prophets.. Gonna try to remedy that one of these days.. :umnick: The beast of Daniel 7:19, thus also 7, has teeth of iron and nails of bronze.. [Roman/Graeco!] Last world empire will have a Roman/Graeco foundation... The iron (roman, see Dan.2 w/ accurate commentary) -- the Roman breaks in pieces.. the nations.. and devours (consumes.. uses up) the nations. And the bronze (nails, Greek humanism, etc.) will trample and scatter the residue. Iron teeth = iron columns? Roman senates, architecture, politics, etc, etc.. and Greek philosophy, drama (theater, poetry.. oration.. etc).. universities, etc. - Western Civilization gone pornos to sell, sell (capitalism gone extreme, but the ten kings-horns/seats! - um, the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue.. part iron, part clay.. which the mountain of the Lord will strike toppling all of man's empires.. (Dn.2) and truth will begin to fill the world with peace and joy, and mostly love.. which makes the peace and joy! oops, the ten kings of the last hour will consume and raze with fire, Babylon the Great whose forehead (psyche) is mystery babble/all confusion.. responsible for all slain of Earth.

But as we see, the visions arent' in order which confuses us for a while..

Daniel 12:
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince (-apality?) who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people, Daniel, shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book. (At that time, 144,000?)
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting ageduring contempt. (A 1000yrs later, imo. Like Jesus said, some to a resurrection of life, some to a resurrection of (the) Judgment - Day of Atonement fulfilled! Jn.12:32 & Ps 22:27)
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and
seal the book until the time of the end; many
shall run (travel?) to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Do you think that "all nations"/"many nations" are presently flowing unto "the house of the Lord"?

No, I think the gentiles (unbelievers) are (being) filled with rage, Rev. 11:8 (ps.2:1). And I don't believe death has ceased to exist either. But! No matter.. We are all agreed, however it is worked out, God is the savior of all, for Jesus will draw all to Himself. :cloud9: :dsunny:

Isaiah 2:2 (KJV) And it shall come to pass *in the last days,* that *the mountain [foundation?] of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains,* and shall be exalted above the hills; *and all nations shall flow unto it.*
Micah 4:1-2  But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and *people shall flow unto it.  And many nations shall come,* and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Rev 21:9-10   And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This I think is a meanwhile... in the book of Revelation, which kind of confuses the vision..

Do you think Jesus has, or hasn't, become the cornerstone?

Yes, but are all the little stones in place?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Psalm 118:22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.
Psalm 144:12 That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth;
that our daughters may be as corner stones,
polished after the similitude of a palace:
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Jeremiah 51:26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1 Peter 2:6-7 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

"ye are being built up into a temple of the Lord".. "lively stones of"..

just a bit o' :2c: :gsmile:

.....The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria..

P.S., Pat, your post seems to be saying one thing the first half and another the second.. No matter, both are true (I believe!) Preterist, has happened. And futurist, will happen. ("He who is, and was, and is to come.") And also current.. :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Romans9;28for the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.

v29Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants.......Peter and the sheet descending and ascending backup

this child will be a sign spoken against. rising  and falling of many in Israe.John1;51......

   Rev 21;2Holy city descending out of heaven from God.Man's spirit is a direct descendant of God the Father..and no man is his Father

the seed of those first-born in heaven that fall unto the earth and die[sown incorruption and weakness[flesh]]do ascend..and

meet the Lord in the clouds of heaven. :2c:

Sheila, do you have any thoughts about the vision - in Zechariah 5, about three woman? One in a basket, called "wickedness" and two women, coming "with the wind in their wings" who have "wings like a stork" and they fly swiftly with the basket.. This image has come to my mind twice just recently, I think in my mind the 3 women were wearing white.
(Sort of toga-like garments)..

(..and they carry the basket "to the land of Shinar to set it on a base"..   an idol? as in a faith/belief/prophet,prophesying? Shinar of course was the land of Babylon.)

Is it the same, do you think, as the flying scroll that "goes out over the face of the whole earth" of the same chapter? (I'm inclined to think that..)

HiMarie,I myself when I read that am inclined to think the same.I see captive Jerusalem[unrefined of her  drossby Christ]as the woman

in the basket with lid of lead....Jezebel spirit Thyatyra and Laodacean church as wind in their wings/also being carried offof winds

ofdoctrines.the scroll of curses for robbers/thieves that turn the Fathers House into a denof thieves[like Balaam paid to pronounce curses

on Israel/men].Israel was supposed to be a blessing unto all nations..we are to BLESSandCURSE NOT MEN MADE IN GOD'SIMAGE...

their foundation is not CHRISTandHIS BLESSING GOOD NEWS AND PEACE UNTO ALL MEN

I willpray about this..I would  like to have HIS mind/thoughts on it....

oh :doh: Verse 5 (Zechariah 5:5) the angel who talked with Zechariah said, speaking about the vision of the 3 women and a basket, "lift your eyes and see what this is that goes forth" and in verse 3, speaking of the scroll he said it's a curse that "goes out over the face of the whole Earth.. So the scroll, in the vision shown to Zechariah, that goes out over all the Earth, is the vision of the three women.. one sitting in the basket, two coming with the wind in their wings with the basket to set it up on a base, in a house built for it. ..A basket with a lead lid..

[marie glen]

David, Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...

In the same way that people who believe in hell won't let their mind even think of universal salvation because the Bible "obviously" and "plainly" states there is a hell.

But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.

But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.

You mentioned many of them already so I won't go into the "evidence" because it's up to everyone to decide for themselves, search it out (or not), or God to reveal things to people in his timing.

To me it aligns with how many didn't believe Jesus was the messiah because he didn't come, do, say, or act how they *expected* the messiah to act so they rejected him, in the same way his second coming was also not how people expected it to happen, but if you look at his own words, there are just too many passages that show that his return had to be within the first century, and had to happen in the way it did, because of the plain rendering of his words. It's funny, but to me it actually is the most literal interpretation of the passages, especially given Jewish prophetic and apocalyptic writing style.

I believe the spiritual to be more real than the material, but I also believe that Jesus's return was described both spiritually and materially and they both happened simultaneously. 

I also believe the kingdom is happening simultaneously, spiritually and materially. That is why it is the "new heaven/new earth" (spiritual/material).

I believe we are all participating in leavening the whole lump, to slowly bring forth the kingdom.

I think that's true! :iagree: yet paradoxically :umnick: I also think it will all be worked out 'in the flesh', literally in the world like a drama played out during our own age since Jesus left, and two following this one called millennium and judgment..

Yet it is happening always.. in the world and also in the human heart and psyche.. a repeating pattern I guess, is how I think of it..
  :gwink:
 

[MusicLover123]

I get the "Jesus' first coming did not turn out as they expected" but as one person pointed out, the passages, especially OT ones, seem to actually describe the second coming than the first one.

Act 1:9  After saying this, Jesus was taken up while those who had gathered together were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 
Act 1:10  While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, two men in white robes stood right beside them. 
Act 1:11  They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."

In terms of evidence, along with all the signs I think are there nowadays, especially recently(the allowing of newborn babies to be murdured should be on the top list. And if you notice, right before Jesus came, and Moses plagues finished, babies were being slaughtered, just as we see today.), there is an increasing number of dreams and visions given about His return. And that number is just goes up and up, especially now. But I cannot convince anyone that believes otherwise.

Someone pointed this out to me as well, if we look at Matthew 24, you know what Jesus starts out with?

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 

And the Apocrypha, though unsure of its validity, is interesting to note this passage:

2 Esdras 9
1 He answered me: "Measure carefully within yourself, and when you see that a certain part of the signs that were predicted have passed, 2 then you will understand that the time has come in which the Most High will begin to visit the world that he made. 3 When the movement of places, tumult of peoples, plotting of nations, inconstancy of leaders, and confusion of princes appear in the world, 4 then you will understand that it was about these things that the Most High spoke from former days, from the beginning. 5 Just as with everything that has happened in the world, the beginning is known from the end,[a] and the end comes to be seen, 6 so also are the times of the Most High. The beginnings are manifest in prodigies and mighty works, and the end is evident in deeds and in signs.

A video on some signs to take note of:

https://youtu.be/TQlEJ7qRyGU

I'm no scholar, so I'm not equipped to go through all the verses. But I do feel after seeing and being aware of all the signs, God is leading me to believe in a literal second return of Jesus. I'm reminded of this verse:

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 

[sheila]

 :2c:decieved of men Esdras has many writings pertaining to our time.

Joel2;19 it will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear,as though he entered his house and rested his hand on a wall

only to have a snake bite him.

the serpent on the wall...and the writing on the wall[your reign has been weighed in the balance and found -[king of Babylon] wanting]

Men[e]men[e] tak EL[God]UR for him!

[DavidFord]

....Preterism was something I initially rejected because "obviously" it wasn't true so I wouldn't even let my mind go there...
But the passages about Jesus's return seem to involve lots of mental gymnastics and to me I just didn't understand it all. Why did he say people wouldn't taste death before he came? And other things that didn't add up. So, just like how hell didn't make sense to me, I just sort of put it on a shelf, so to speak, and focused on other aspects of my faith.
But one day recently I was reading a website by a UR believer and he had many Preterist articles that I read. It suddenly clicked in my mind and it made sense of so many passages that don't make sense otherwise.

I encountered some of those "mental gymnastics" in an article attempting to debunk partial preterism.

[DavidFord]

In terms of evidence, along with all the signs I think are there nowadays, especially recently(the allowing of newborn babies to be murdured should be on the top list. And if you notice, right before Jesus came, and Moses plagues finished, babies were being slaughtered, just as we see today.)

Infanticide was commonly done in the era in which Jesus was born.  It's because of Christ and Christianity's spread that infanticide ceased to be common.  With the decline of Christianity and its Judeo-Christian morality, infanticide is creeping back up in America.
Darwinism and atheism greatly damaged Christianity in Germany in the late 1800s and early 1900s, there were huge numbers of abortions in Weimar Republic Germany, and then there was infanticide, involuntary euthanasia, and mass killings in the Third Reich.

Do you think any Revelation 12 events have already occurred?
Revelation 12 (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[jabcat]

But I do feel after seeing and being aware of all the signs, God is leading me to believe in a literal second return of Jesus.

me too.. i do put a lot of stock in 70 ad etc.  much happened then, some of complete fulfillment, others of partial fulfillment to be replayed/completed.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

[DavidFord]

Do you think Jesus did, or didn't, say that John would live to witness Jesus' return?

John 21 (KJV)
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee [Peter], When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.  And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?  follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die:  yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things:  and we know that his testimony is true.

[jabcat]

I think in part He was saying "it's not up to you what I do".  Also, I believe He did return multiple times spiritually, which is also literal [in that it did really happen], revealing His glory.

Various times of His comings;

the transfiguration
70 AD
Pentecost
John's receipt of the complete vision of Christ's future return in the Revelation

But not yet this, which was future for Paul;

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16–17).

[GodIsLove]

Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit. 

[DavidFord]

Were the Idumean-killed Ananus & Jesus/Joshua/Jeshua the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11?

The Two Witnesses
http://www.beyondrevelation.com/study/odd-and-ends/topics-from-revelation/the-two-witnesses/
Below, we will make a list of prophecies from the text, and their fulfillment in these two individuals.
....
As we can see from the above list, interpreting the "Two Witnesses" to be prophetic offices, first appearing in Zechariah and extending to the present time, of 24 criteria, we see that Ananus and Jesus (or, Joshua), the two high priests killed by the Idumeans, clearly fulfill 11 immediately.  Understanding v4-6 as describing their role adds another 5 without difficulty.  Of non-consequential attributes that bear a strong possibility of existing historically despite the lack of record in Josephus would be being clothed in sackcloth, exchange of gifts, and the length of time their bodies were in the street without burial, which would directly bring the number to roughly 19 of 24.  This leaves only the miraculous resurrection and ascension into heaven while their enemies watched (v11-12, complete).  All other criteria are fulfilled.

The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)
https://adammaarschalk.com/tag/ananus-ben-ananus/
I would like to propose that the two witnesses were two first century high priests, Ananus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel (also known as Joshua).  According to Josephus, they led the peace movement in Jerusalem when the Zealots were determined to rebel and incite war with the Romans, hoping to gain full independence for Israel.  As we will see, their roles, deaths, the aftermath of their deaths, and the timing of their deaths line up with a number of details John saw in Revelation 11.  Here is a short summary of these two men.

https://adammaarschalk.com/2016/11/02/josephus-and-the-book-of-revelation-nine-case-studies/
In John Wesley's commentary on Matthew 24 (1755), he said, "Josephus's History of the Jewish War is the best commentary on this chapter..." I believe this is also true for the book of Revelation.

[DavidFord]

Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.

How about bodily?

james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy:  I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34.  Next month I will turn 62.  Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought.  A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear.  And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens."  A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You."  He told me that I was the 10th Leper.  And I have not been the same since.

[GodIsLove]

Yes, I believe Jesus could very well come to earth many times, in spirit.

How about bodily?

james c in a comment on https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU
Some Dandy:  I had a Road to Damascus experience when I was 34.  Next month I will turn 62.  Although I was alone in my car back in 1991, I was not as alone as I thought.  A hand came to rest on my left shoulder, & a voice whispered into my right ear.  And the voice whispered to me "I will bear your burdens."  A couple of days later, I finally wandered into a Catholic Church & told a priest about it, & that I had stopped in just to say "Thank You."  He told me that I was the 10th Leper.  And I have not been the same since.

Yes!

Edit: I mean yes as in I agree with experiences such as this, but as Sheila said, I believe this is a spiritual body, not a material/natural body. I do believe we can see and touch the spiritual body just as the apostles did. I also believe Jesus can, did, does, and will come spiritually to individuals and to groups when and how he chooses.

[sheila]

 :2c:  David,I don't see that as bodily.....we all sojourn in Egypt[this world]and never return again in the flesh. and

we no longer know Jesus Christ as a man..but as a glorified son of God. Yet,that same spirit in Christ can and does dwell bodilyinus

Christ died ONCE........now the resurrection body. the earth gives it back in the same form it recievedit..so it may

be known that the dead live..but it can take any form after that.

I watched thevideo of the atheist.....Jer46;15  Why willyour warriors be laid low?they can not stand for the Lord will push them down

this scripture was calledto my attention..and I thought of the atheist words about feeling beat down.


...Heis always with us in spirit...until the end...when we are just like Him...it is always God in the spirit,inus..doing all the works

Micah 3;9-12

as far as the two witnesses killed..if perhaps they be a token..and a literal for that time..to restrain the lawless ones..andsuefor

peace...Iknownot...but I do know..the testimony of the Word of God and the Holy spirit has lay as dead in this world due to

man's[beast]lacking understanding...andyes the spirit of God [life] must enter these two[word of God/holy spirit]and

theymust stand[Michael stand up]and allpeople be delivered[yes,salvationof ALL men]and all must ascend into heaven......

this coincides with THE END...the end of all flesh has come

[GodIsLove]

Sheila, I agree!
The resurrected body is a spiritual body:

35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being";[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?"

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: GIL....I do not deny the POWER of GOD to raise up all men in His image and likeness..incorrupt and immortal

.....nor that all the dead live unto HIM. :girlheart:

[Patinak]

.....The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria..

P.S., Pat, your post seems to be saying one thing the first half and another the second.. No matter, both are true (I believe!) Preterist, has happened. And futurist, will happen. ("He who is, and was, and is to come.") And also current.. :gsmile:

Glenda,
Tell me what you see as a contradiction in the piece you quoted.
I don't see a contradiction in his article, but I would like to try to see how you are seeing it.
Pat