Tentmaker Forum

After doing some studies around Gehenna, I am still with some question marks.
From what I can understand, Gehenna is not for the world, but for the church. From the fact that Gehenna is situated outside of Jerusalem, we can understand that the garbage from Jerusalem ends in Gehenna.
And in this context I see Jerusalem, the Holy City as a metaphor of Gods holy people.

But my question is, if the Gehenna judgment is something that are going to take place post mortem, or is this something going on in our life here and now.

We know that most of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave directly to his disciples. Is this a warning to his disciples about what could be the consequences if they should fall into the sin of fornication, or any other serious sin? Not in terms of being punished by God, by with the consequences this could have on their life, here and now.
We know that the Greek word translated "offend "is skandalízo. From this word we have the English word, scandal. To make a scandal is a strong expression, and involves not only your own life, but also the life of other people.

Let me paraphrase a by telling a story.
A pastor lives in a small city, is married and has a nice family. He is respected in his community, and lives a good life.
What nobody knows is that this pastor is bisexual, and before he got saved and meets his wife, he was involved in a homosexual relationship with another man.
After many years this man shows up in the pastor's church. The pastor recognized the man at once, and goes to great him. The man tells the pastor how much he has been missing him, and asks if they can meet in his hotel the same night.
To make a long story short, the pastor and this man start having a sexual relationship again. This relationship goes on for a while without anyone else, but the two, knowing anything about it.
But one day the scandal is a fact. The pastor is exposed and his picture and name is on the FrontPage of all the newspaper.
The pastor has to pay the price for his sin by losing all of his respect, his job and even his family turns their back on him. On top of all this the pastor has to carry a heavy burden of guilt because of all the sorrow and pain all this has inflicted on his wife, his children and all the people of his church.
What this pastor has to pass through can indeed be called a living hell.
And I am sure that the pastor many times cursed himself for being so stupid.
-Why did I say yes to that first invitation?
-Why did I give inn to the temptation? 
-Why didn't I "cut off" the contact with this man from the first moment?
If he had been cutting off that contact from the very beginning, this scandal would never happen.

I am not saying that this pastor never could come back, serving the Lord, and the Lord can restore everything he lost, and even give him more.
But if he had been more consistent and instead of giving into the temptation, he would cut it off from the very beginning, then the hell he had to go through could have been avoid.

This are just some thoughts I've had lately, without claiming that this is a divine revelation :o)

I definitely think you're on to something. Like Cardinal always says, He reproves us with our own wickedness. We all have to pass through the fire, though. (Everyone will be salted with fire.) And for those who are not purified in this life the fire will need to continue in the next will it not?  :smile:

Do you see Gehenna as LoF (Lake of Fire)?
Just asking because there are different views on that.

Not all judgement is negative and some worms are divine....

No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

I do agree with you on that lomarah, as in 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Quote from: wasco55 on June 19, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

Could be true but I have some doubts about that.
At the second resurrection it looks like people are only judged by their works. The goats are also called the nations sometimes. (among other things)

Is Gehenna right here right now?
After death comes judgement.
Are we judged rwice? Right now and after death?
(is that death literal?)
By the description of Gehenna and LoF it seems to be different things. But to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

For sure, there are many aspects, and many ways of understanding the bible.

About judgment, we know what the bible tells us. After death comes judgment.

But then Jesus also tells us: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hearth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
What is Jesus talking about here?

Be born once, die twice.
Be born twice, die once.

Quotepassed out of death into life.

The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

This has the potential to become a long thread....

Quote from: legoman on December 13, 2010, 10:17:51 PM
I wrote this on the city-data forum a while ago.  Reposting as it is relevant here:
--

To understand the truth of universal salvation, one must begin to understand what these verses on Gehenna are really talking about. Its not an eternal hell of suffering and torment. It could be a reference to the lake of fire (but that is debatable even amongst those who believe UR).


What Jesus meant about Gehenna

Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].

Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).


The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:

[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".


So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.

Again, its helpful to remember what judgment is for: setting things right - teaching righteousness.

I don't manage to make quotes. :o(

But let me make a comment on your post WW.
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

What Paul tells us is that if we are in Christ we are dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
If I am cleansed by the blood of the Lam, can I be more purified?

Let's try to look at some scriptures in a new light.
What if all this fire, salting and judgments spoken of, really are about our life's here and now?
There are plenty of scriptures talking about the fire and trials we have to endure during our life as disciples of Jesus. And if we are the real children of God, he disciplines us. 

1Co 3:13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
What is this verse really talking about?
Is this a judgment all of us have to pass through?
If we read this verse in its context we understand that Paul is talking about his own ministry, but also that of Apollos.     
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another build thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Who are the men Paul is talking about "building upon this foundation"?
From the context I cannot understand that Paul is talking to all believers. Paul call himself a masterbuilder, and he challenge the preachers/pastors/teachers coming after him, to continue building the same way he has been doing.
But in the end the work of the other builders has to pass through a test of fire to see the quality of their work.
So in the end my question is. Can 1.Cor.3:13 be applied to all believers, or not? 



And then we have: 2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Again I have to ask if there are some clear indications of this being a post mortem judgment.
What does Paul think about when he says; receive the things done in his body?
Is it possible to make a connection between this statement, and the warning Jesus gave his disciples in the Sermon on the Mount?
Fornication has very to do with our bodies.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication! Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that committed fornication sinned against his own body.
And why this is such a serious matter, we can read in
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid.

Following this line of thoughts, we also find that Mar.9:49 fit in
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Only Mark gives us this statement from Jesus. But here we see that Jesus make this statement in connection with his warning to the disciples about the fire of Gehenna. 

As partakers of the new covenant, we no longer bring old covenant sacrifice. The one sacrifice I now bring is my bodies.
Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Well, again I have to say that this is some thoughts of mine, and not a divine revelation 

Quote from: wasco55 on June 20, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
I don't manage to make quotes. :o(

There are several ways to quote one of them is typing:
[quote]I want to quote this text.[/quote]
Result

QuoteI want to quote this text.

Or simply select/highlight text by dragging with your mouse and then click (http://tentmaker.org/forum/Themes/default/images/bbc/quote.gif)

QuoteBut let me make a comment on your post WW.
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

What Paul tells us is that if we are in Christ we are dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
If I am cleansed by the blood of the Lam, can I be more purified?

I understand what you mean Wasco.
After death comes judgement. The verse doesn't add "unless dead in Christ"
The only way around this is the OT laws that state the only way to clean away sin is by blood. In OT times animal blood. in NT times Jesus' blood.
What exactly is purification? An instant process? Or something that can take years? It can be argued judgement is related to teaching. link (http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-threatenings-explained/aionios-kolasis/msg61991/#msg61991)


Judgment right now? Possible. I truely don't know.

I like your thoughts and the way you're presenting them wasco.   :thumbsup:

I'm afraid I'm not going to be very in-depth, as I told anna, I'm an outline guy :)

Others can fill in details/give their own specific answers, but briefly here's what I see right now.

I don't believe the spiritually reborn (saved) in this lifetime will go through any post-mortem punishment.  Their judgment is now, disciplined and raised as sons.  Post-mortem will be about works (faithfulness/obedience), rewards and position of service in the next age(s).  As you indicate, the cleansing blood of the Lamb applied by grace through faith, is a finished work, righteous, holy, sufficient.  If there's any purifying yet to be done at all for them, it's only the destruction of anything not of God, the taking away of any remaining vestiges of worldliness, finalizing their "fitness" for service in the kingdom.

That being said, I personally see the Lake of Fire as either a spiritual situation God sets, or even the result of being in God's Direct Divine Presence..which no mortal man has ever yet done and lived.  Our GOD is a Consuming Fire.  So it could be that "Lake of Fire" removes anything that's left that's not of God from the believer, but I don't believe they're "hurt" by it.

For the unbeliever, I believe that Presence/Lake of Fire is a situation/condition, or result of God's Presence, that brings the unbeliever to final repentance.  As every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord, I don't believe the Lake of Fire experience actually saves them by cleansing them, except by the fact that part of the process of spiritual rebirth by the Holy Spirit of God is cleansing.  Still, I believe it brings them to the place of brokenness and repentance and confession.  So to the unbeliever, it's experienced as painful.  Darkness being exposed and then consumed by Divine Light of YHWH and His Spirit.  It cannot stand in His Presence.  J. Preston Eby likens it in this life, to an unsaved, habitual sinner being in a gathering of believers where the Holy Spirit is moving in a mighty way.  He said that person experiences that as torment, torture.  They either repent, or they have to get out of there, flee.  In God's Direct Presence, every knee will finally bow, as there will finally be no other place to go - until all is consumed by His Love and grace.   (My little incomplete, still-more-to-be-enlightened view.  Blessings.)

And I think there are holes and maybe even some inconsistencies in the above..it's just sort of the best I can see it right now.   Maybe at least part of it is helpful.  :2c:

Quote[ Still, I believe it brings them to the place of brokenness and repentance and confession./quote]

I remember doing that.
Do you other folks also remember doing that?
That seems to be true repentance, the realization of who we are and why we are here because of what Christ has done for us to present us faultless to our heavenly Father.

QuoteSo to the unbeliever, it's experienced as painful.  Darkness being exposed and then consumed by Divine Light of YHWH and His Spirit.  It cannot stand in His Presence

I am not so sure if it's going to be painful,but for sure it's going to be a process. But we also have to remember that every man and women living in this world have one thing in common. 
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaned and travailed in pain together until now.
I think that everyone going through that proses will feel it more like a relief, rather than pain.   

QuoteDo you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).

As always, it's not easy to translate an expression from one word to another. And what is even more difficult, is to translate real meaning of the word.
To us the expression "fool" is not a very strong word. But maybe this word had another meaning when the bible was translated into the English language the first time. 

Raka was an insult, but not to serious. Raka could in fact have been translated fool. This meaning something empty, something without any value.
But the word translate fool in English, is morós, from where we have the English word moron.
The meaning of this word is much stronger.
When using this word in Greek, you are saying that the person is morally worthless.
morós scorns him concerning his heart and character.

Wasco I can tell you with 100% certainty that birth pangs HURT LIKE HELL! LOL. (The only time I've ever got sick from pain, ever. Not fun.) The relief comes when they are over and life is born. :)

raka and fool
tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/MBS_12_MATTHEW_5-22.pdf (http://tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/MBS_12_MATTHEW_5-22.pdf)

I'm not positive either, but by painful, I think more in terms of conviction and reaching a place of brokenness - being "dashed against the Stone", so as to be re-formed (Mt. 21:44).  Discipline, the breaking of our wills can be traumatic - especially if one has perhaps hardened their heart against the Lord for years and years.  I know personally, conviction is emotionally/spiritually painful, and I feel relief only after I've repented/confessed.   

Well, we'll know when we get there :).

For sure God is going to turn those harden and bitter hearts to repentance.
But what is the best way of doing that?
Nothing can bring a man to a deeper repentance that a clear understanding of and a real encounter with God's love.
During the time of the law in the old covenant God sent all kinds of punishment over his people. But did that really produce a genuine repentance?
The story of Gods people in the Old Testament is a clear proof that it didn't.

The reason why we still want to insist on the idea of pain and torment is because we still carry some of that old spirit of revenge.
What we are thinking is that those terrible sinners are going to pay for their wickedness. After all, we believers have been "paying the price" of being the followers of Jesus. And here comes these sinners, after living their life in carnal lust and sinful lifestyle. And then they are not going to have a good old faction spanking from God.
-Common God, give that wicked sinner a god licking.
-Don't go soft on him now!
-Bring him don't to his knees!

Jesus once told us: For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a householder, which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
We know the story, about laborers coming to work in his vineyard during the day. Some worked from morning to evening, other just for one hour.
But in the end they all received the same salary.
The once who had been working the whole day did not like that, and began to complain.
But the householder told them they had no reason to complain, because they received what they had been promised.
And then he asked them: Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is your eye evil, because I am good?   

Quote from: wasco55 on June 21, 2012, 07:40:44 AM
For sure God is going to turn those harden and bitter hearts to repentance.

The reason why we still want to insist on the idea of pain and torment is because we still carry some of that old spirit of revenge.

Just to be clear, I'm personally not talking about punishment and beating or "revenge".  I'm talking about conviction and the realization of displeasing Love, and how that causes emotional pain/distress in many.  I believe that's often involved in repentance.

Quote from: wasco55 on June 21, 2012, 07:40:44 AM
We know the story, about laborers coming to work in his vineyard during the day. Some worked from morning to evening, other just for one hour.
But in the end they all received the same salary.

God can do whatever He chooses to do and however He chooses to do it.  But IMO, because they are forgiven too (paid the same salary/given the same inheritance) doesn't necessarily rule out basanizo.  That appears to me to have scriptural support, not just "that's how we want it".  But what that exactly entails, I believe we won't know until then.  I'm glad we agree it won't be mainstream's literal eternal hell-fire torture.  :2c:   Blessings and peace.

I like this explanation from J. Preston Eby;

"What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly!

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves. Because they are wrong and sinful in nature, wicked in their hearts, selfish in their minds, and impure in their desires, they are CONDEMNED IN THEIR CONSCIENCES by the very PRESENCE of the pure, holy, sinless, selfless, sacrificing Lamb of God. Hell is at its fiercest when it sees heaven, and not till then.

When these realize the presence, or the character of the Lamb, they are tortured in their consciences, for in the Light of the Lamb they see themselves for the wretched little devils they are. The very PRESENCE of TRUTH torments the deceitful and the liar. The very PRESENCE of HOLINESS torments the immoral and corrupt. The very PRESENCE of LOVE is torment to the mean and hateful. The PRESENCE of Him who is the PRINCE OF PEACE is torture to those who live by violence and the sword. The very PRESENCE of the LIFE OF THE LAMB is the most awful torment and torture to all the opposing forces, both deceiver and deceived, until all the deceit and hostility has been taken out of them, and they come to KNOW THE LORD. When these have been exposed for a sufficient time to the PRESENCE of the Lamb, the Lamb will overcome them; His love and power will conquer their hearts; the rebellion and waywardness will be taken from them and they will at last ENJOY the Presence of the Lamb!"

Amen to that jabcat  :gimmefive:

Loved that quote from Eby jab!!  :2thumbs:

Quote from: jabcat on June 21, 2012, 08:51:25 AM
God can do whatever He chooses to do and however He chooses to do it. 

He no longer can.
He limited Himself with laws and vows.

Quote from: jabcat on June 21, 2012, 05:37:32 AM
I'm not positive either, but by painful, I think more in terms of conviction and reaching a place of brokenness - being "dashed against the Stone", so as to be re-formed (Mt. 21:44).  Discipline, the breaking of our wills can be traumatic - especially if one has perhaps hardened their heart against the Lord for years and years.  I know personally, conviction is emotionally/spiritually painful, and I feel relief only after I've repented/confessed.   

Well, we'll know when we get there :).

Interesting how many times Ray Prinzing's Daily Overcoming supports current post on TM forum...
must be led by same Spirit!!!!

June 21 meditation "Measured to His Footprint"

begins with a Scripture:

"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Rom. 14:10-12

Prinzing's last paragraph

"Tradition gives the impression that the "judgment seat" is a fearful place where God, as an austere Judge, metes out the sentence, there is no mercy, no love, only awesome judgment.  But the truth of the matter is that day by day, we are now, progressively, facing the judgment seat of Christ.  We are experimentally being measured to His footprint, as the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and purges and purifies that we might be conformed to His image.  Christ is our Example, "that ye should follow in His steps" 1 Pet 2:21.  And measured to His footprint, we truly have peace with God."

the whole devotional can be read at http://godfire.net/rayprinzing/june_21.htm

====

well, now I must needs be still and know God (which means less time on the Internet)

Random thought of the day:

If you stand before the Judgement Seat you are standing in the River of Life. :nod:

Without any doubt, the first Christians had a different understanding of the word judgment.
In fact judgment played a vital role in the declaration of the good news in the first church.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;
Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Good to know it's the "Son on man" who will execute the judgment. He knows so well what it's like to live on this planet.

And then we have psalm 98. My all-time high  :banana:

Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Quote from: wasco55 on June 21, 2012, 06:38:30 PM
Without any doubt, the first Christians had a different understanding of the word judgment.

Idiom #31 - Judgement and salvation

Psalm 43:1 Judge me, O God

Isaiah 59:9-14
New International Version (NIV)

Isa 59
9 So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
11 We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.
14 So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter

In all the above verses judgement equals something good like rightousness and salvation.


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Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Read Psalm 122 in which Jerusalem is called city of Salvation with several thrones.
Parallel between psalm 122 and Mat 19:28
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Of course judgement can be really negative; but the word itself certainly isn't all doom and gloom.
Context.....

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(Matt 12:18 [ACV])
Behold, my Boy whom I chose, my beloved in whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will declare justice to the Gentiles.

(Isa 42:1 [ACV])
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

(Ps 43:1 [ACV])
Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against a profane nation. O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man.

(John 3:17 [ACV])
For God sent the Son into the world not that he might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

(the noun salvation is only 7 times in the Gospels

The Hebrew word for Judgement, judging, etc very often means saving, to save etc
Jesus came to save not to judge.
When David was is trouble he called for help (salvation) not the negative meaning of judgement.

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(Judg 11:27 [ACV])
I therefore have not sinned against thee, but thou do me wrong to war against me. LORD, the Judge, be judge this day between the sons of Israel and the sons of Ammon.

(Isa 33:22 [ACV])
For LORD is our judge. LORD is our lawgiver. LORD is our king, he will save us.

(Gen 18:25 [ACV])
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay a righteous man with a wicked man, that so the righteous man should be as the wicked man. Far be it from thee. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

(Ps 94:2 [ACV])
Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth. Render to the proud a recompense.


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(Luke 22:30 [ACV])
that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Ps 122:1 [ACV])
I was glad when they said to me, Let us go to the house of LORD.

(Ps 122:2 [ACV])
Our feet are standing inside thy gates, O Jerusalem.

(Ps 122:3 [ACV])
Jerusalem, that is built as a city that is compact together,

(Ps 122:4 [ACV])
where the tribes go up, even the tribes of LORD, [for] an ordinance for Israel, to give thanks to the name of LORD.

(Ps 122:5 [ACV])
For there thrones are set for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

(Ps 122:6 [ACV])
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper who love thee.

(Ps 122:7 [ACV])
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

(Ps 122:8 [ACV])
For my brothers and companions' sakes I will now say, Peace be within thee.

(Ps 122:9 [ACV])
For the sake of the house of LORD our God I will seek thy good.

Jersusalem, city of salvation.

The vineyard of the Lord Almighty
is the nation of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are the vines he delighted in.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.

8 Woe to you who add house to house
and join field to field
till no space is left
and you live alone in the land.

9 The Lord Almighty has declared in my hearing:

"Surely the great houses will become desolate,
the fine mansions left without occupants.
10 A ten-acre vineyard will produce only a bath of wine;
a homer of seed will yield only an ephah of grain."

11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine.
12 They have harps and lyres at their banquets,
pipes and timbrels and wine,
but they have no regard for the deeds of the Lord,
no respect for the work of his hands.
13 Therefore my people will go into exile
for lack of understanding;
those of high rank will die of hunger
and the common people will be parched with thirst.
14 Therefore Death expands its jaws,
opening wide its mouth;
into it will descend their nobles and masses
with all their brawlers and revelers.
15 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled,
the eyes of the arrogant humbled.
16 But the Lord Almighty will be exalted by his justice,
and the holy God will be proved holy by his righteous acts.
17 Then sheep will graze as in their own pasture;
lambs will feed among the ruins of the rich.

18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit,
and wickedness as with cart ropes,
19 to those who say, "Let God hurry;
let him hasten his work
so we may see it.
The plan of the Holy One of Israel—
let it approach, let it come into view,
so we may know it."

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty
and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore the Lord's anger burns against his people;
his hand is raised and he strikes them down.
The mountains shake,
and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets.

--Isa 5

Judgement to salvation (http://www.google.com/search?q=Through%20fear%20lead%20others%20to%20salvation&hl=en&num=100&lr=&ft=i&cr=)

Salvation through judgement (http://www.google.com/search?q=Through%20fear%20lead%20others%20to%20salvation&hl=en&num=100&lr=&ft=i&cr=)

Blessings all.

Here's an interesting exchange from (c) EvangelicalUniversalist about gehenna; including its historical significance (the bodies of the Jewish leaders were thrown into gehenna in disgrace in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed).  Also, its spiritual and/or symbolic implications, and where those may fit.
-----------------
Historical vs. spiritual Gehenna

I just finished reading Brad Jersak's book "Her gates will never be shut" and found a lot of what he said intriguing. Especially interesting was his discussion of the meaning of the word Gehenna, usually translated fiery hell. He suggests that by the 1st Century there were still two separate traditions about the meaning of Gehenna, both stemming from its original historical referent, the valley of child sacrifice and of God's judgment upon Israel: one, the apocalyptic tradition, started interpreting Gehenna spiritually as the place of divine punishment in the afterlife, while the other, the Jeremiadic(?) tradition, retained its historical referent and used Gehenna as a symbol of God's historical judgment upon Israel. He suggests that Jesus stood within the later tradition, in that Gehenna referred primarily to the coming historical judgment of A.D. 70, and only in a few cases does it refer to something like spiritual deadness, or even a cathartic purging.

An intriguing suggestion, but my problem is that the historical judgment reference of Gehenna seems to apply only to a few of the cases in which it is used. For example, I can see how John the Baptist's message could be primarily historical. When he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees a 'generation of vipers' and asks them who warned them to flee from 'the wrath to come' (Matt 3:7), and when he gives his parable of the axe being laid to the root of the trees, and that those who didn't bear fruit would be cast into the fire, I can just about see him talking about the coming historical judgment. Similarly Jesus' own condemnation of the 'offspring of vipers' can bear a historical meaning (Matt 23:33).

But I cannot see that interpretation applying to the parts of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus warns against saying 'Thou Fool', and advises that it is better to lose an eye or a hand than to be cast fully intact into Gehenna (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 18:9). It seems rather odd to suggest that Jesus is literally suggesting that loping off a limb could somehow spare one from the destruction of Jerusalem! Similarly, the warning about whom one should really fear, the one who has power to cast into Gehenna after death, seems to make little sense on a historical-judgmental interpretation (Matt 10:28; Luke 12:5) Finally, the condemnation of the Pharisees' evangelistic practice for making their converts twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves (Matt 23:15) seems inexplicable as implying that they were dragging them into Jerusalem to be trapped by a historical judgment.

If anyone can shed some light on these passages, I'd be grateful. For my part, although Jesus did definitely speak of a national, historical judgment for Israel (I follow a partial preterist reading of the Olivet discourse), he also seems firmly rooted in the apocalyptic tradition and reflects the apocalyptic understanding of Gehenna as a fiery afterlife punishment.  - Heyzeus7


by Melchizedek - My tired brain can't seem to cause me to be able help with anything more concrete here, but hopefully this suggestion will assist in some small way. I think the problem may be related to our tendency toward an all-or-nothing mentality when it comes to these things. In other words, if part of the prophecy is literal (in the physical sense) then it all must be. Yes, there was a physical, historical judgment on that generation of Jewish people, but this judgment not only had physical, but spiritual consequences for Israel as a nation. It may be that you are only seeing the physical component and not the spiritual component of the historical judgment, and so assume that the spiritual component must necessarily refer to some future time beyond the historical judgment? I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we have a tendency for whatever reason to think of Gehenna as either purely physical or purely spiritual, and/ or we seem stuck in thinking of the spiritual component as something that must necessarily apply beyond the historical judgment.

It's just a thought. I'm sure there are others who can do much better for you; I'm simply throwing my initial impression out there.

["Heresy" is often nothing more than the rejection of widely held error.]  -  EvangelicalUniversalist

IMO, like so many things.... the scriptures speak of all these things at once. For some gehenna was initiated in 70 AD as the Romans marched on Jerusalem and their dreams and illusions were crushed. Yet, further on down the road, those within whom that fire did not complete the purpose of kolassis- awoke(or will awake) before the great white throne, where their consciences will accuse them before the Lord and they will stad in "the fire" until they hav "paid the last penny", repenting, bowing the knee, coming into lov/light/fire as recipients of grace. I believe Gehenna refers to this Light/Fire/Love of God consuming the adversaries within and without, in this age and in the ones to come. "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it".

"An administration suitable to the fulness of times, the summing up of all things in Christ, wether things in heaven or things in earth"(Eph 1:10,11)

For this reason God has given Him the name above every name, that every knee shall shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(Phil 2:10,11)

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:28)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(Rev 20:10-11)

The veil shall b rent. Every consciousness in heaven and on earth and under the earth will be exposed to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ(2 Cor 4). "Everything that is hidden will be brought to light"....."Every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt"......"Evry eye will see Him even those that pierced Him"...."In that day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent...In that day sing of it....a vineard".

Create in me a clean heart o God and renew a right spirit within me, cast me not away from thy presence O Lord and revive me with thy free spirit.......Then shall I rejoice in your presence and sinners will b converted unto thee.

We are in the fre now "Marvel not at the preponderance of trials that are coming upon you, for the purifying of your faith is more precious that gold tried in the fire."

Is this NOW?....YES!   Is there more to come in the ages to come?..... YES!


2 cents :o)

I know that there will be some disagreement upon what I am about to say, but I myself have gone beyond the realm of what people view as judgment.
I see teaching as the way of God; we are all on the road to understanding, it's just that everyone is at a different point in the road. We are all as children, being taught to be more like Christ; in other words, everyone is "in the process" of being taught by God, it's just that some do not want to listen to His teaching and that is why we remain in our sin.
IMO, pride is the last thing that is to be cleansed from all of us, pride in what we ourselves think we can accomplish, we can and do take pride in our own knowledge of what we may think the truth is. I myself take no pride (at least I try not to) in what knowledge of the truth God has shown me. Since the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways, I do not look upon "knowing the truth" as the goal to be reached, the goal I see to be reached is that of the lessons learned from our search for the truth.

I have come to understand myself more in what I lack than what I have been given; all that I have been given is for the purpose of my own spirit becoming more like the Spirit of Christ and because I also have been given discernment, it is easier to see what has and has not been given to others, but in no way am I to use that information against another trying to make myself look better than another in my own eyes; for in that, pride again sneaks in the back door.

In my search for the truth (by what God has done in me) I have become a more compassionate person, and that is not just towards just some; it is towards all. I have become a more forgiving person, forgiving others as I have been forgiven; forgiving all as I have been forgiven of all.

In short, by the teaching of our Lord and Savior in truth, I have become a better person, and that is what I have come to understand as what it means to increase, my new self increases while my old self decreases and it has all been by the hand of God in the work (teaching) He has done in me, so that He gets the glory, not me.

Judgment to discipline - discipline to training - training to teaching; it is an evolution (for lack of a better word) from what can be understood as either good or evil to what we know for a fact to be good.

My two cents

Judgment is an interesting word. Even in the scriptures there are about 6 different words translated as "judgment". I am not sure I get where you are coming from, but on one thing I agree with you completely. Everything God does teaches. All of God's actions and words and manifestations are teaching us all to live in harmony within His being/love/light/fire- as one soul, in one mind and heart. Any "judgment"(disipline) teaches discernment, which enables revelation("LET THER BE LIGHT") which causes life to emerge out of chaos.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.

Quote from: jugghead on June 23, 2012, 05:03:32 PM
It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.

It seems to me that there are at least two events mentioned in the New Testament that would agree with this.


=========================
Mark 5:36  Be not afraid, only believe      v 39 the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth  v. 41 Jesus took her by the hand and said Tabitha cum (Damsel, I say unto thee) arise.  v 42  and straightway, the damsel arose




=========================
John 11: 4 Lazarus sick    v.  11 Lazarus sleepeth  v 14 Lazarus is dead

v. 40 believe...see the glory of God  v 43  Jesus cried with a loud voice Lazarus come forth  v 44 and he that was dead came forth



Sorry, this is so sketchy... the most important word for me in these two events is "believe" , anna

Quote from: jugghead on June 23, 2012, 05:03:32 PM
It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.

This of course is the distinction all believers in the "salvation of all" carry within them and their "good news". All judgment is for us, separating us from those things that keep us in darkness, leading all eventually into light.

Judgement (now or future) is being in the presence of God, the consuming fire.  The dross is burned away, but the purer gold is left.  We are all being made to grow up into the HEad, Christ.

I don't see judgement as a negative thing at all, ever, for anyone.  We see it that way, or at least our carnal mind does

Quote from: eaglesway on June 23, 2012, 04:31:57 PM

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

exactly.  this is the message of reconciliation, to tell the folks that judgement is for your benefit

Zeph 3
"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness.
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.

9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

The carnal mind is veiled to the beauty of verse 9, it only perceives v 8

Absolutely. One day the Holy Spirit showed me this thing about the NOW of God.......    All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

As soon as the veil is removed, I am in the DAY. In the Day I can SEE THE PURPOSES OF GOD BEING FULFILLED ALL AROUND ME, even in thru difficulty and trouble. In the darkness(veiled) I see only trouble and the thwarting of my own will. In the Day I rejoice in gratitude that God is faithful.  Various trials that are for the purifying of my faith may come my way. I may cry unto the Lord for deliverance- but not just from the trial but also from the reason for it- whatever is bound up within me that the Lord desires to "bring up into the light". Whatever dross, whatever alloys for which he is melting me down in order to separate and purify my soul and spirit.

All of us who love Him are called according to His purpose- the reconciliation of all.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

But all of us are not walking in the DAY as children of light.

The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.  God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The first DAY. Separation by revelation. Veil removed.

"In this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples"

"In that day I wll slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent by the sword of my mouth....in that DAY sing of it- a vineyard, the Lord keeps it Day and night He waters it morning by morning."

The word of the Lord is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul&spirit....MAKING MANIFEST the thoughts and intentions of the heart. FOR ALL THINGS ARE OPENED TO THE EYES OF HIM WITH WHOM WE HAV TO DO.

The opening of our eyes, our awakening...LET THERE BE LIGHT......

It is a full disclosure to the Father of Spirits of who we are, what we have done and are doing, how desperate we are for grace and how fully satisfied we are to KNOW HIM and His love - and to share it.



23 The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life(past redeemed)
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever(future redeemed)

One day the last confused soul will awaken to this glory and death will flee away and time will be no more :o)

Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

..if ye would judge yourselves..ye would Not be judged

Quote from: gasman on October 11, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

:dsunny:

These are only observations as I "see through the glass darkly".

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire(aionios pur). And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire(geena pur).
(Mat 18:7-9)

While I believe that the Gehenna concept has application in our daily lives, when Jesus speaks of "aionian pur" or "aionoan kolassis" , and "geena pur" in the same sentence, I think it would be a mistake to totally discount an "olam"(otherworld, beyond the horizon) application for either one.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1Co 3:13-15)

This verse can be read either way, honestly, and I believe applies BOTH ways- in this life and before the judgement seat of Christ....... The Day will reveal the nature of our work, as believers, in a manner that may cost us the overcomers reward-(IMO, our position as a son and a priest in the ages to come). Geena is where the garbage gets burned. Obviously it is "aionios" or better yet IMO "olam" (beyond knowing) in nature.

the parable of the talents is interesting in this regard, those who invested wisely, are given further stewardship in the age to come(imo) while the one who "misunderstood the Master's intentions and nature" goes into fire. This always seemed harsh to me, of course now I know this is the fire of 1 Cor 3:15, the fire that burns the rewards, consumes wood hay and stubble, and purifies the soul. He will lose his reward but he himself will be saved, and, IMO will receive revelation about the divine nature and God's "kind intentions' in the process. Paul says "some mens sins go before them, some mens sins follow after them into judgment". I believe this means some mens sins are not seen until "olam"- and that is when they are judged as well.

While (virtually)everyone will be salted with fire, and (virtually) every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt(which is fire)(Mark 9:49), I believe it is ALL THE SAME FIRE. It is GOD who is 'a consuming fire'. It is light(God is light). It is love(God is love). For the pure, it is a preservative. Keeps the gold shiny. For the impure, it is consumptive and painful. These things may happen both in this life and in the "olam" (other side, unseen, barely glimpsed, beyond the horizon). I think there are too many verses with both possibilities for anyone to be going around making a confident statement that all fire is in this life.

When the scripture talks about those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life being cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet- it is not all symbolism. Neither is it a literal fire. It is "pur and theon"(IMO "fire of God or God-fire) which is light burning darkness and consuming adversaries and "bringing every hidden thing to light". I believe this is always happening on some level for everyone, but for those who hav walked in wickedness there is wrath(thumos-passion) and indignation(orge-outbreak) to come, IMO meaning forced exposure to the "One who dwells in unapproachable light"......notice this experience in the lake of fire that burns with "theon" is IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels(messengers) and the Lamb(Rev 14:10). I believe this a unique expression of the light of God in the age to come, in which the adversaries will be "kolassisized"- whatever that means LOL.

"Who will hide us from the face of the Lamb and the One who sits on the throne?"

Indeed, who?

Where I differ from some is that I don't believe any believer ever experiences the Lake of Fire, their names are written in the Lamb's book of life because they have ALREADY ENTERED THE APOKASTASIS(Eph 1:9-11) and been RECONCILED BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS(Col. 1:16-21) and are NO LONGER ENEMIES(Eph 1, 1 Corinthians 15), as long as they continue steadfst, in the faith, abiding in the reconciliation. Whatever the lake of "pur and theon" is, it is for those who are not "reconciled" and whose knees are not bowed in humility(Phil 2:7-11).

If they BEGIN TO JUDGE HARSHLY (parable of the man forgiven a huge debt and then imprisons his debtor who owed him only little) they may go BACK INTO PRISON, and they will not get out until they pay the last penny- which is to ASK FORGIVENESS FOR THEIR RELIGIOUS SINS(confess and forsake), Humble themselves again as servants(I can return to my Father's house as a servant...) and get back in the love of God.

The worst of God's adversaries are those who think they are serving Him but are really doing the devils work of condemning and dividing.
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

Thanks for your 40 cents.

QuoteWhere I differ from some is that I don't believe any believer ever experiences the Lake of Fire, their names are written in the Lamb's book of life because they have ALREADY ENTERED THE APOKASTASIS(Eph 1:9-11) and been RECONCILED BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS(Col. 1:16-21) and are NO LONGER ENEMIES(Eph 1, 1 Corinthians 15), as long as they continue steadfst, in the faith, abiding in the reconciliation. Whatever the lake of "pur and theon" is, it is for those who are not "reconciled" and whose knees are not bowed in humility(Phil 2:7-11).

Everybody shall be salted with fire. That includes teh believers imo.

God's fire = Fiery law?

Quote from: gasman on October 11, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

Whoo that is a good word this morning!

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2012, 06:46:29 PM

Quote from: wasco55 on June 19, 2012, 06:03:42 PM
No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

Could be true but I have some doubts about that.
At the second resurrection it looks like people are only judged by their works. The goats are also called the nations sometimes. (among other things)

Is Gehenna right here right now?
After death comes judgement.
Are we judged rwice? Right now and after death?
(is that death literal?)
By the description of Gehenna and LoF it seems to be different things. But to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

Are we not judged daily?  We are told to judge ourselves...look...correct so we don't need to be corrected.  Other people judge us.  Sin casts it's sentence.

we have 'filthy rags' that need burning...Isaaih 30; 22  then you will defile your idols[work of your hands

  that are not life] overlaid with silver and gold[Nebuchaddnezers image]; you will throw them away

  like a menstrual cloth and say 'mere dirt"

  but even when the woman brings forth life[male child/female child] there is a time of purification

  necessary.   Filthy rags are burned in Gehenna for they are trash..new life= custom of rubbing

  with salt the newborn........salt in yourselves...preserving the life brought forth..of truth and righteousness

    of the inward parts=fruit of the loins-  life-giving waters from the belly

 salted with fire=the seperating of what is life from that which is mere dirt.  preserving life and burning

  of that which is trash.    good/evil discernment...through the spirit

(Mark 9:48) where their worm does not perish, and the fire is not quenched.

(Mark 9:49) For every man will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt material.

(Mark 9:50) The salt material is good, but if the salt material becomes saltless, by what will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace among each other.

Verse 49 imo is a Hebrew rhyme. Saying the same thing twice.
Man=sacrifice. Salt=fire.

(Lev 2:13) And every oblation of thy meal-offering thou shall season with salt, nor shall thou allow the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meal-offering. With all thine oblations thou shall offer salt.

Salted animals were placed on te altar.

Quote from: sheila on October 12, 2012, 05:23:43 PM
salted with fire=the seperating of what is life from that which is mere dirt.

Animals were salted. That extracted the last blood of drop.
Then the animal was placed on the altar.
Dead things (mere dirt) is offered instead of life (blood)

(Gen 9:4) But flesh with the life of it, [which is] the blood of it, ye shall not eat.

  yeah...and new covenant..unless ye drink 'my blood' and eat 'my flesh' ye have no life in you....for we know

  that/and count our old man/flesh as good as dead[refuse]..because of sin......law covenant/ministry of death.....

    the eternal spirit of life is in the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ......unto us a son has been given...new covenant

  unto life...life giving spiritual drink and meat..that makes atonement= at one ment[mind thought] latin mens

  mental...mind of Christ mind of God..union of thought...no longer my thought are not your thoughts..

   I am from above/you are from below...true atonement is bringing into unity/union with God.....His

  new spirit in your heart and laws in mind and heart...there is no law of condemnation to those who

  walk in spirit..but liberty and glorious freedom

Quote from: wasco55 on June 19, 2012, 05:19:33 PM
After doing some studies around Gehenna, I am still with some question marks.
From what I can understand, Gehenna is not for the world, but for the church. From the fact that Gehenna is situated outside of Jerusalem, we can understand that the garbage from Jerusalem ends in Gehenna.
And in this context I see Jerusalem, the Holy City as a metaphor of Gods holy people.

But my question is, if the Gehenna judgment is something that are going to take place post mortem, or is this something going on in our life here and now.

We know that most of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave directly to his disciples. Is this a warning to his disciples about what could be the consequences if they should fall into the sin of fornication, or any other serious sin? Not in terms of being punished by God, by with the consequences this could have on their life, here and now.
We know that the Greek word translated "offend "is skandalízo. From this word we have the English word, scandal. To make a scandal is a strong expression, and involves not only your own life, but also the life of other people.

Let me paraphrase a by telling a story.
A pastor lives in a small city, is married and has a nice family. He is respected in his community, and lives a good life.
What nobody knows is that this pastor is bisexual, and before he got saved and meets his wife, he was involved in a homosexual relationship with another man.
After many years this man shows up in the pastor's church. The pastor recognized the man at once, and goes to great him. The man tells the pastor how much he has been missing him, and asks if they can meet in his hotel the same night.
To make a long story short, the pastor and this man start having a sexual relationship again. This relationship goes on for a while without anyone else, but the two, knowing anything about it.
But one day the scandal is a fact. The pastor is exposed and his picture and name is on the FrontPage of all the newspaper.
The pastor has to pay the price for his sin by losing all of his respect, his job and even his family turns their back on him. On top of all this the pastor has to carry a heavy burden of guilt because of all the sorrow and pain all this has inflicted on his wife, his children and all the people of his church.
What this pastor has to pass through can indeed be called a living hell.
And I am sure that the pastor many times cursed himself for being so stupid.
-Why did I say yes to that first invitation?
-Why did I give inn to the temptation? 
-Why didn't I "cut off" the contact with this man from the first moment?
If he had been cutting off that contact from the very beginning, this scandal would never happen.

I am not saying that this pastor never could come back, serving the Lord, and the Lord can restore everything he lost, and even give him more.
But if he had been more consistent and instead of giving into the temptation, he would cut it off from the very beginning, then the hell he had to go through could have been avoid.

This are just some thoughts I've had lately, without claiming that this is a divine revelation :o)

What if he never got caught??

 FOR A FACT,THELlORD DID SAY TO HIS DISCIPLES..YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS MUST EXCEL THAT

  OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES.......

   REV 22;15  OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS, THOSE WHO PRACTICE MAJIC ARTS, THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL

  THE MURDERERS, THE IDOLATERS AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND PRACTICES FALSEHOOD

  THERE IS A REAL GOOD EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO LIE AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WHAT HAPPENS

  TO THEM IN ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA IN ACTS 5;1....

   THE BELIEVERS SHARE THEIR POSSESIONS.........SATAN FILLED ANANAIS HEART... SO THAT YOU

   HAVE LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT...... SAPPHIRA 'AGREED' TO TEST THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD


  IN THE TEMPTATIONS OF CHRIST...JESUS REBUKED SATAN WITH..'IT IS ALSO WRITTEN....

'THOU SHALL NOT PUT GOD TO THE TEST"

   LESS THAN 'ALL' IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH..........

  SINCERITY,HONESTY WILL NOT MAKE US BOASTERS OF WHAT WE HAVE NOT GIVEN.......

   'DENYING OURSELVES" IS NOT 'HOLDING BACK' A PORTION FOR OURSELVES...........JUST AS YOU

  HAVE THE INCORRUPT IMAGE THAT 'HOLDS BACK' THE LAWLESS ONE...YOU HAVE THE 'LAWLESS ONE'

  THAT HOLDS BACK THE GIVING OF ALL AND HOLDING ALL THINGS IN COMMON..

   ANTI-CHRIST SPIRIT AND SPIRIT OF CHRIST..GOOD/EVIL  EXAMPLES IN MEN

Awesome stuff Sheila!!!  :dsunny:

I love the dealings of God. I am never more alive in Christ than when I am chastised as a son, because he loves me. They are trully hard to bear but I would be so bold as to say that if you are not in the middle of the fire then you are not in the middle of his will, which is to refine me in gehenna fire to purge the flesh from me and leave only that incorruptable seed to spring forth as the seed that first fell into the ground. Christ himself. I must decrease so that he may increase. The word of God was first given to the Israelites in fire, burnt onto the tablets of stone and they will be burnt into the fleshy tables of our hearts the same way. The measure to which we die to the flesh is the measure that we are alive in Christ. I mean to leave nothing left to be purged in the Lake of Fire because it has all been burned while I yet lived. And to live, IS Christ. Praise the Lord!!  :cool:

Mic 6:8  He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

THE LORD REQUIRES WE DO JUSTICE,LOVE MERCY,WALK HUMBLY.

   JUSTICE=TOKOGAE-ALL SIN IN FLESH CONDEMNED[NOT A MATTER OF DEGREES..ESPECIALLY

  SINCE WE HAVE COME TO KNOW THE MIND OF CHRIST/GOD..THAT IT IS HIS CHOOSING

  OF A VESSEL FOR NOBLE OR IGNOBLE USE IN THIS GOOD/EVIL EXERCIZE......

  WE COUNT OURSELVES AS HAVING ALL THINGS COMMON WITH MAN..KNOWING WE ARE

  NO BETTER THAN ANY OTHER..THAT IF HE HADN'T CALLED US OUT AND ENLIGHTENED US

  WE WOULD STILL BE IN DARKNESS..THAT IT IS HIS SPIRIT GIFT AND CALLING THAT HAS  MADE

ANY DIFFERENCE FROM ANY OTHER MAN...THIS WILL KEEP US HUMBLE..KNOWING IT IS NOT

  OF OURSELVES AND UNDESERVED

    LOVING MERCY........THE GREAT MERCY HE HAS GIVEN US ..NOW..IS EXTENDED TO ALL MEN..

    MADE IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST AND RAISED UP IN HIM..WE DO NOT COME TO CONDEMN

  THE WORLD BUT TO GIVE LIFE.......TO FREELY FORGIVE MEN THEIR SINS....WE AS HE HAVE

  THE ABILITY TO FORGIVE SIN OF ALL MEN..NOT COUNT IT AGAINST THEM AND MAKE KNOWN TO

  THEM THEY ARE THE RECIPETANTS OF ETERNAL LIFE/FREE GIFT.    AND THIS IS ALL THE FRUIT.......

  WHEN HE TAKES AWAY ALL THEIR SIN...THIS IS THE MEASURE OF FULLNESS OF CHRIST

  THAT WE ATTAIN..IT IS ENOUGH FOR US TO BE LIKE HIM..HAVE HIS MIND[SAVIOURS WILL GO UP

  ON MOUNT ZION TO GOVERN THE MOUNTAINS OF ESAU. AND THE KINGDOM WILL BE THE LORD'S]

   HAVING HIS MIND..AND KNOWING THE CREATURE WAS SUBJECTED TO VANITY..NOT OF IT'S

  OWN WILL..BUT BY HE WHO SUBJECTED IT..IN ORDER THAT THE CREATURE MAY BE SET FREE

  INTO THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD...

   KNOWING THAT5 CHRIST WILL APPEAR AGAIN  APART FROM SIN[SEPERATE THE PEOPLE FROM

  SIN]  AND HOW HAS THE LORD SEPERATED MANKIND FROM SIN?  DISCERNMENT OF THE EVIL

  FROM THE GOOD...AND THAT FATHER USED THE EVIL IN THE TREE AS A TOOL FOR THE GOOD

  OF MAN IN THIS EXERCIZE OF GOOD AND EVIL. THAT THROUGH IT..ALL THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT

  SHOULD BE FULL..FRUIT SUCH AS MERCY,LONG-SUFFERING,HUMILITY COMPASSION SHOULD

BE DEVELOPED IN HIS CHILDREN, AS A DISTINCT COMPONET OF LOVE.


  THE TOL IS THAT MANKIND IS THE CHILDREN OF GOD...THAT THE TOKOGAE IS OF THE DISCIPLINE

  OF GOD.   THE WHOLE CREATION HAS BEEN GROANING FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE

  SONS OF GOD.


  COMFORT YE,COMFORT YE MY PEOPLE..TELL THEM THEIR HARD SERVICE IS OVER,THAT HER

SIN HAS BEEN PAID FOR, THAT SHE HAS RECEIVED FROM THE LORD'S HAND DOUBLE FOR

  ALL HER SINS[DOUBLE ANNOINTING]


  iSAAIH 52;21  THIS IS WHAT THE SOVEREIGN LORD SAYS,YOUR GOD WHO DEFENDS HIS PEOPLE

  SEE,I HAVE TAKEN OUT OF YOUR HAND THE CUP THAT MADE YOU STAGGER, FROM THAT CUP

  THE GOBLET OF MY WRATH,YOU WILL NEVER DRINK AGAIN


   I WILL PUT IT IN THE HANDS OF YOUR TORMENTORS[EVIL TOOLS] WHO SAID TO YOU...

   MAKE YOUR BACK LIKE THE  GROUND,LIKE A STREET TO BE WALKED OVER.


  AWAKE! AWAKE! O'ZION  CLOTHE YOURSELF WITH STRENGTH. PUT ON YOUR GARMENTS OF SPLENDOUR

[CHRIST].....BURST INTO SONGS OF JOY YOU RUINS FOR THE LORD HAS COMFORTED HIS

  PEOPLE, HE HAS REDEEMED JERUSALEM............
..

  SO WILL HE SPRINKLE MANY NATIONS..AND KINGS WILL SHUT THEIR MOUTHS BECAUSE OF HIM

  FOR WHAT THEY WERE NOT TOLD THEY WILL SEE,AND WHAT THEY HAVE NOT HEARD,THEY

WILL UNDERSTAND


  ENLARGE THE PLACE OF YOUR TENT..STRETCH YOUR TENT CURTAINS WIDE........

  O'AFFLICTED CITY LASHED BY STORMS AND NOT COMFORTED,I WILL BUILD YOU WITH

STONES OF TURQUOISE,YOUR FOUNDATION WITH SAPPHIRES[REV 21;19]


  COME ALL YOU WHO ARE THIRSTY,COME TO THE WATERS, AND YOU WHO HAVE NO MONEY

  COME BUY AND EAT!

  NATIONS WILL COME TO YOUR LIGHT,AND KINGS TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF YOUR DAWN


  LIFT UP YOUR EYES AND LOOK ABOUT YOU",ALL" ASSEMBLE AND COME TO YOU........

   THEN YOU WILL LOOK AND BE RADIANT,YOUR HEART WILL THROB AND SWELL WITH JOY

   ...INSTEAD OF THEIR SHAME,MY PEOPLE WILL INHERIT A DOUBLE PORTION

  AND INSTEAD OF DISGRACE  THEY WILL REJOICE IN THEIR INHERITANCE

   AND SO THEY WILL INHERIT A DOUBLE PORTION IN THEIR LAND,

  AND EVERLASTING JOY WILL BE THEIRS


  FOR I THE LORD..LOVE JUSTICE, I HATE ROBBERY AND INIQUITY, IN MY FAITHFULNESS

  I WILL REWARD THEM AND MAKE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THEM.

  FOR ZION'S SAKE I WILL NOT KEEP SILENT, FOR JERUSALEMS SAKE I WILL NOT REMAIN QUIET

  TIL HER RIGHTEOUSNESS SHINES OUT LIKE THE DAWN

  HER SALVATION LIKE A BLAZING TORCH

  I HAVE TRODDEN THE WINEPRESS ALONE..FROM THE NATIONS NO-ONE WAS WITH ME

  I TRAMPLED THEM IN MY ANGER AND TROD THEM DOWN IN MY WRATH

FOR THE DAY OF VENEGANCE WAS IN MY HEART..AND THE  YEAR OF MY REDEMPTION HAS COME

[VENEGANCE ON THE EVIL TOOL  IS REDEMPTION OF ALL IN CHRIST] DELIVER US FROM EVIL.


AS THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH THAT I MAKE WILL ENDURE BEFORE ME

DECLARES THE LORD,SO WILL YOUR NAME AND DESCENDANTS ENDURE.....

  AND THEY WILL GO OUT AND LOOK UPON THE DEAD BODIES OF THOSE WHO REBELLED AGAINST ME

  THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE,NOR WILL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED,AND THEY WILL BE

  LOATHSOME TO ALL MANKIND[MK 9;48 MT 3;12 DAN 12;2


  THE MIND OF GOD AND CHRIST..THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH OF TRUTH RIGHTEOUSNESS

  JUSTICE AND MERCY..EVEN THE ETERNAL HEAVENS,EARTH..SHALL LIVE FOREVER...

  AND THE OLD HEAVENS EARTH WHERE THE ACCUSOR AND EVIL TOOL BROUGHT DEATH..

  SHALL BE NO MORE. THE DOCTRINES AND LIES AND THEIVING OF THE EVIL TOOL/BODY OF DEATH

  SHALL BE LOATHSOME UNTO ALL PEOPLE.........BURNT IN GEHENNA

Sheila you are V E R Y busy lately :thumbsup:

ACTS 19;19  A NUMBER WHO HAD PRACTICED SORCERY BROUGHT THEIR SCROLLS TOGATHER

  AND BURNED THEM PUBLICLY. WHEN THEY CALCULATED THE VALUE OF THE SCROLLS

  THE TOTAL CAME TO 50,000 DRACHMA'S. IN THIS WAY THE WORD OF THE LORD SPREAD

  WIDELY AND GREW IN POWER.


  BABYLON SORCERY IS PRESUMPTOUSNESS..JUDGING MEN TO ETERNAL DESTRUCTION...OR SOME

  TO DESTRUCTION SOME TO GRACE.OR MIX GRACE/LAW.THIS IS WICKEDNESS/INIQUITY

  DOCTRINES OF SORCERY...MAJIC SPELLS CAST ON THE PEOPLE



  BOOKS WERE OPENED[BOOK OF LAW]..AND EACH MAN JUDGED BY WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THEM...

  MAN OF SIN JUDGED..NEW MAN IN CHRIST JUDGED? DON'T THINK SO THE SPIRITUAL MAN IS NOT JUDGED


...LOVE DOES NOT KEEP A RECORD OF THE WRONG

  BOOK OF LIFE OPENED....ALL MEN GIVEN FREE GIFT...........THERE IS NO WRITTEN RECORD

  IN HEAVEN AGAINST ANY MAN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE[CHRIST]

  BURN YOUR SCROLLS[DOCTRINES OF DEMONS] AND CEASE FROM SORCERY/MAJIC SPELLS OF

  BABYLON

    SOME JEWS WHO WENT AROUND DRIVING OUT EVIL SPIRITS TRIED TO INVOKE THE NAME OF THE LORD

  JESUS OVER THOSE WHO WERE DEMON POSSESSED.  THEY WOULD SAY,'IN THE NAME OF JESUS WHO

PAUL PREACHES....I COMMAND YOU TO COME OUT.. SEVEN SONS OF SCEVA,A JEWISH HIGH PRIEST

  WERE DOING THIS.  ONE DAY..THE EVIL SPIRIT ANSWERED THEM' JESUS I KNOW, AND I KNOW ABOUT PAUL,

  BUT WHO ARE YOU?  THEN THE MAN WHO HAD THE EVIL SPIRIT JUMPED ON THEM AND OVER-

  POWERED THEM" ALL"  HE GAVE THEM SUCH A BEATING THAT THEY RAN OUT OF THE HOUSE

  NAKED AND BLEEDING...[IF YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE,SO TOO ALL MEN..IF SIN IS BEING COUNTED

AGAINST YOU SO TOO ALL MEN]

   SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD, IF YOU DO NOT KNOW  JESUS CHRIST AND THE FATHER...

  THE DEMON SHALL OVERPOWER THE 'ALL'..AND SEND YOU NAKED AND BLEEDING.....ALSO
.....

   THE AUTHORITY IS IN KNOWING THE FATHER AND SON.  SEVEN SONS OF HIGH PREIST CAN

  BE LIKENED TO 7 CHURCHES OF CHRIST...THESE ARE THE WORD OF HIM WHO HOLDS

  THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD AND THE SEVEN STARS. I KNOW YOUR DEEDS,YOU HAVE A

  REPUTATION OF BEING ALIVE,BUT YOU ARE DEAD. WAKE UP! STRENGTHEN WHAT REMAINS

  AND IS ABOUT TO DIE,FOR I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD

[ THE DEED IS COMPLETE SEPERATION OF SIN FROM ALL MEN. EVIL TOOL SEPERATE FROM MEN

[.IF FIRSTFRUITS HOLY/ALLHOLY]THE DEED IS YOU RECEIVED FREELY,GIVE FREELY

GIFT OF LIFE TO ALL,ALL SINS FORGIVEN MEN/HOW CAN YOU SEPERATE A DEMON FROM A MAN IF HIS

  SINS ARE  HELD AGAINST HIM/ANGELS HELP SEPERATE SIN FROM MAN.

   WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMES IN HIS GLORY..AND ALL THE ANGELS WITH HIM..HE WILL SIT

  ON HIS THRONE IN HEAVENLY GLORY..ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE GATHERED BEFORE HIM

  AND HE WILL SEPERATE THE PEOPLE ONE FROM ANOTHER AS A SHEPHERD SEPERATES THE SHEEP

  FROM THE GOATS HE WILL PUT THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT AND THE GOATS ON HIS LEFT

  THEN THE KING WILL SAY TO THOSE ON HIS RIGHT[MANKIND] COME YOU WHO ARE BLESSED BY

  MY FATHER; TAKE YOUR INHERITANCE THE KINGDOM PREPARED FOR YOU SINCE THE CREATION

OF THE WORLD...........

   THN HE WILL SAY TO THOSE ON HIS LEFT DEPART FROM ME YE WHO ARE CURSED, INTO THE

ETERNAL FIREPREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS]

  MATT 3;12  HIS WINNOWING FORK[ED]TONGUES IS IN HIS HANDS AND HE WILL CLEAR HIS THRESHING

FLOOR,GATHERING HIS WHEAT INTO THE BARN, AND BURNING UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

.]....

  HE WHO OVERCOMES WILL LIKE THEM BE DRESSED IN WHITE, I WILL NEVER BLOT OUT HIS NAME

  FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE..

  CHILDREN..IF OUR SINS ARE NOT HELD AGAINST US..AND WE RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH

THE FREE GIFT AND GRACE OF GOD..SO,TOO,ALL MEN[ALL THINGS IN COMMON] THIS IS PART OF THE

FULLNESS OF THE MEASURE OF CHRIST THAT  SHALL BE IN HIS.

   COME UP HERE  REV 11;11,12

  YOU HAVE AUTHORITY TO FORGIVE SINS..YOU RECEIVED FREELY..GIVE FREELY TO ALL

  MAY YOU BE FOUND OF HIM SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS AND FREE OF WRINKLES

  COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS

  AND YES WW..AS REBECCA SAID..HE IS QUICKLY CHANGING GARMENTS FOR HIGH PRIESTHOOD