I have read from some UR sources that God is going to bring about a cataclysmic judgement upon the earth in which much of humanity suffers greatly and dies. Is this a God of love? Is it the just outcome for a people who had no choice in their being bound to futility and disobedience? I cannot help that I am a miserable sinner. I was created this way. We all were. Can my Maker justly bring this terrible judgement on His creation? Yes, I have also read that God's judgements are corrective, punitive. But think about it--what is corrective about thousands or millions starving to death? What is corrective about pandemics in which many suffer a horrible death? I just do not get it. I may want to teach my child that playing in the street is dangerous, but I do not run her over with my car to do it. That's crazy. How can I trust God with this hanging over my head? You tell me God is love, but is this an act of love?
Quote from: Deena on August 29, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
I may want to teach my child that playing in the street is dangerous, but I do not run her over with my car to do it.
Imo God does the opposite in Revelation. He stops protecting/restraining instead of actively waging war. Only the 7 bowls are His activity.
That said, I'm fully aware that doesn't answer the core of your question.
Quote from: Deena on August 29, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
I have read from some UR sources that God is going to bring about a cataclysmic judgement upon the earth in which much of humanity suffers greatly and dies. Is this a God of love? Is it the just outcome for a people who had no choice in their being bound to futility and disobedience? I cannot help that I am a miserable sinner. I was created this way. We all were. Can my Maker justly bring this terrible judgement on His creation? Yes, I have also read that God's judgements are corrective, punitive. But think about it--what is corrective about thousands or millions starving to death? What is corrective about pandemics in which many suffer a horrible death? I just do not get it. I may want to teach my child that playing in the street is dangerous, but I do not run her over with my car to do it. That's crazy. How can I trust God with this hanging over my head? You tell me God is love, but is this an act of love?
Without experiencing darkness, we can not fully appreciate the light. Without the experience of evil in life we can not fully appreciate God's love through our salvation from it. Was it "the just outcome" that God's only-begotten son who was without sin die a horrible death for the sins of the whole world? God causes death and brings those that die back to life. We may not understand God's ways, but we should trust that they are "just."
"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthains 5:7)
"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling000.htm
God is just in providing a Savior for His creation. I know that by the blood of Christ's sacrifice God was revealing His love for us. I also completely believe that God is a just God and a Savior--because He is a just God, He is a Savior. That is why I do not understand the concept of the great tribulation. That is the part I do not understand. God has provided the sacrifice that takes away the sin of the world and wipes out the standard against us, so why must there be this grand disaster? Was the blood of Christ not enough? I do not mean to sound contentious. This life seems like it it has plenty enough of punitive teaching as we struggle against evil here. Must there be more?
Deena I do not believe God is coming back to kick ace. Any tribulation is mans doing. Jesus is the exact representation of the father. And when he was being tortured at the hands of men (not God) he said I'm going to strike with vengeance on all those who persecute me. Oh wait no he didn't he said Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
That is how God acts in the exact way shown through His son. :2c:
it is the plagues of Babylon that bring about all the tribulation pain,death. Actually He goes forth in righteous warfare
against the kingdom of darkness....to fight and deliver people........see Babylon and what she has in her cup....and why
He destroys her.....Rev 18;24.....always His wrath is directed against the kingdom of darkness..problem is..many
people are joined unto this unholy demonic spirit. Let my people go.......and satan's heart is hardened...reign and destroy
is his motto.........when he is loosed from the byss to g forth[see Gog,Magog prophecy........it is so he be destroyed]
a restored people dwelling without walls in the midst of the earth[camp of Holy city..salvation of all men]
so it is satan himself who causes fire to come down from heaven..by his ruinous reign and desolaation of the earth
as always..satan..the slanderer of God's name and nature..impugns God's character...God who loves us and wants good
things for us..is blamed when the image of the corrupt one reigns and goes forth..it is the nature of corruption to increase..
If God does not cut these days short..no flesh will be saved....O'Death..I shall be thy plagues!!!.....
the plagues He works are against the kingdm of darkness that will not let His people go! at passover He will kill
the firstborn son[image of corrupt one] of prince of this world whose works are wicked...that He may deliver His firstborn
son[in image of incorruptible. This is the mortal chnge in the twinkling of an eye.....when that which is mortal puts on
immortality.
the time is coming..when I will no longer allow my people to live in Egypt[prince f this wrld] But I will bring them home
in childbirth[children of the light] weeping endureth during the night[kingdom of darkness that surrounds us]
but joy cometh in the morning[daystar rises]...do I bring to birth and not give deliverance?
A GREAT DELIVERANCE IS COMING!!!!!!! When you see these things occur..lift yourselves erect......
YOUR DELIVERANCE DRWS NIGH!!!
IMO the
Quotecataclysmic judgement
will be likened to Noah's flood. Noah and his family were saved through the flood. Likewise the "
especially" ones living at the time of the coming
Quotecataclysmic judgement
may be saved through it also.
1 Timothy 4:9 This is a statement that can be trusted and deserves complete acceptance. 10 Certainly, we work hard and struggle to live a godly life, because we place our confidence in the living God. He is the Savior of all people,
especially of those who believe.
Quote from: Deena on August 29, 2013, 04:04:43 PM
God is just in providing a Savior for His creation. I know that by the blood of Christ's sacrifice God was revealing His love for us. I also completely believe that God is a just God and a Savior--because He is a just God, He is a Savior. That is why I do not understand the concept of the great tribulation. That is the part I do not understand. God has provided the sacrifice that takes away the sin of the world and wipes out the standard against us, so why must there be this grand disaster? Was the blood of Christ not enough? I do not mean to sound contentious. This life seems like it it has plenty enough of punitive teaching as we struggle against evil here. Must there be more?
It is all according to God's will that some are chosen to have faith, and some are chosen to believe by sight. That is how those standing before the great white throne will become believers.
Those who are believers before they die will have already been snatched away to be with the Lord saved from the coming indignation.
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
"For the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)
It is now that we are experiencing our "tribulation," but it's nothing compared to the peace we will know when we are with the Lord.
"For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us." (Romans 8:18)
Everything God does is to demonstrate his love in the long run even though we may not understand why he does things the way he does to accomplish his ultimate plan which is the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) and the reconciliation of all on earth and in heaven (Colossians 1:20).
Quote from: Tom on August 29, 2013, 05:42:38 PM
Those who are believers before they die will have already been snatched away to be with the Lord saved from the coming indignation.
Partly I think.
Believers are harvested is groups. Some groups endure more tribulation than others.
Here is an applicable quote worth reading from J Preston Eby:
Quote
"We flounder a bit in our understanding of these things, but as time passes by and the Holy Spirit takes the things of God and reveals them unto us, we begin to understand that in all the universe a thing is a thing ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS ITS OPPOSITE. Good without the knowledge of evil can scarcely be called good at all. Who could possibly speak of the day if night had never been known? There was no first light if there were no darkness? What could we know of life if there were no death? What would we know of health if there were no sickness? What would we know of wealth if poverty had not spread its specter upon the earth? No man can be trusted until he has been EXPOSED TO THE OPPOSITES, until he has been tempted. No man can be declared strong until he has been tested for weakness. Nor can he be an overcomer until he has faced the dreadful foe. Those who are worthy to slay their Goliaths must first have slain their lion and their bear. No man can be an overcoming Son of God until he has encountered THE SERPENT IN THE WILDERNESS and come forth victorious!"
Amen
Deena,
Upon finishing the whole article, I thought it worthy of posting the link to it.
J Preston Eby's The Serpent - truly a must-read!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/The_Serpent.html (http://www.godfire.net/eby/The_Serpent.html)
...some great posts! and surely I have to read that link, just above.. As to the sufferings of this life as we know it, thus far.. I can't help thinking of God, our Father, as life itself (and perfection, thus imperfection is the opposite of life) ..and so death, suffering / imperfection came upon all (an outgrowth of thinking ability, for it includes, sooner or later the ability to choose, albeit limited ability). All this of course is, imo.
In order to endow thinking ability, well, all suffer, some horribly! But God, being Life, itself, the life force (the all in all, and more so in the ages to come) - because He is life, He suffers it all.. all suffering which ever occurs. And every indignation. All Of It.
(Also, because He is Perfect, the 'end' result of all this can only be (surely?) the best one possible.)
:girlheart:
:Chinscratch: Or, that is to say, in order for there to be rational creatures, He has let the endowing of it, run its natural course.. otherwise.. ?
Life as we presently know it, imo, is an unavoidable journey and lesson.. if there's to be thinking ability that is..
..what would have been His other option? No rational creatures.. ever..?
Why did He (wait and) create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into outright revolt, sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen?
:laughing7: Of course He did! :LH: Perhaps He did it in just that way so all, in heaven and earth, would travel this unavoidable lesson, once and for all.. otherwise, mightn't it take virtually forever? With one straying now.. another later, and still another later.. and later.. and later.. til virtually taking for 'ever'? So all would take this unavoidable learning journey together.. learning good from evil, which I think is also life from death/nonlife, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection.
Peace and blessing! :smile:
Thank you Redhot. You are understanding the contrast I am making. Like all of us (I hope), I am trying to reconcile the things I do not understand.
IMO, trusting God is acknowledging that ALL his judgments are just. He is a more than fair God with infinite mercy. Everyone gets exactly what they need to bring them to Jesus either before death or after. Millions starve to death everyday, millions die from disease, millions die by accident, millions die - everyday. Who are we to say with our limited knowledge of the present, faulty knowledge of the past and NO knowledge of the future save what God has revealed that something isn't just? The gracious loving God that made all of us, eventually kills (lets us die) all of us but, most importantly saves and rescues all of us for sharing life aeonian with him.
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 30, 2013, 10:36:39 PM
IMO, trusting God is acknowledging that ALL his judgments are just. He is a more than fair God with infinite mercy. Everyone gets exactly what they need to bring them to Jesus either before death or after. Millions starve to death everyday, millions die from disease, millions die by accident, millions die - everyday. Who are we to say with our limited knowledge of the present, faulty knowledge of the past and NO knowledge of the future save what God has revealed that something isn't just? The gracious loving God that made all of us, eventually kills (lets us die) all of us but, most importantly saves and rescues all of us for sharing life aeonian with him.
Wonderfully said D2 :HeartThrob:
We cannot even pretend to understand the LOVE that Father has for any of His children. To worry about the punishment is to dismiss the Love.
What possible punishment could there be that we have not already dragged ourselves through?
Love Julie :girlheart:
Ded,from what you presented, we are but sheep to slaughter. I can buy that if it is for a reason. How do you explain the 400 children killed in Syria's chemical attack fit in? Sorry to keep pressing,but what about those killed as if they were used kleenex? Do their lives not count? What about Job's kids? Did they deserve it, or were they just the collateral damage? Forgive the persistence, but I must reconcile these questions so I can move on in faith.
I guess my point is "God gives and God takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord" as Job said when his children died. God had a purpose then and he has a purpose now. God is not asking anyone to understand him (for the finite cannot understand the infinite, and very limited knowledge cannot understand omniscience) God simply wants us to trust him. He is in control, he knows what he is doing. From Abel being slain, all people from Adam till now have asked the question of God "WHY?" WHy did this happen? Why did that happen. God says love and trust. You must admit, because of sinful man, there are numerous opportunities to love others, serve them, sacrifice for them. For what we do unto others, it is as if we have done it to Jesus. :Chinscratch:
He takes us when He wills and He spares us when He wills. I can't help but envy those who get to leave this hellhole sometimes... but as it would appear He's not appointed me to die yet so here I stay. I will do what I am called to do. Certainly those children in Syria as well as Jobs children were/are just as precious in His sight as all the rest. This life is so temporal and we are only here for a short season. We must not lose sight of that... we are here, at least in part, to experience evil, that we can learn from it and take away eternal lessons that will make us fit for the life to come. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Deena on August 29, 2013, 01:41:55 PM
I have read from some UR sources that God is going to bring about a cataclysmic judgement upon the earth in which much of humanity suffers greatly and dies. Is this a God of love? Is it the just outcome for a people who had no choice in their being bound to futility and disobedience? I cannot help that I am a miserable sinner. I was created this way. We all were. Can my Maker justly bring this terrible judgement on His creation? Yes, I have also read that God's judgements are corrective, punitive. But think about it--what is corrective about thousands or millions starving to death? What is corrective about pandemics in which many suffer a horrible death? I just do not get it. I may want to teach my child that playing in the street is dangerous, but I do not run her over with my car to do it. That's crazy. How can I trust God with this hanging over my head? You tell me God is love, but is this an act of love?
People get confused about tribulation, the Great Tribulation and God's Wrath.
They are 3 different things and none of them are judgment.
God always takes his people out of harms way when he shows his Wrath but rarely tribulation which is why I can't understand pre tribulation theology. There's no precedent for it. God saved Noah and his family from his Wrath. He saved Lot and his family from his Wrath. God spared the Hebrews from his Wrath on Egypt but tribulation is an act against God's elect people and not from God.
God doesn't seem to directly punish his elect.
Maybe he can't bring himself to do it.
Tribulation is known by God as he prophesied about tribulations and he assures us these things must come to pass.
The world is full of sinful men so it's dangerious and you need to watch out for evil is still in the world.
Satan and his fallen Angels are also exiled on earth.
It's sometimes a dangerious and ugly world we live in but not always.
God's full Kingdom has not yet been established on earth so locking your doors at night makes sense.
Till evil is under Christ's feet people are going to be killed all over the world because sin is pervasive in the world.
Quote from: Deena on August 31, 2013, 07:33:13 AM
Ded,from what you presented, we are but sheep to slaughter. I can buy that if it is for a reason. How do you explain the 400 children killed in Syria's chemical attack fit in? Sorry to keep pressing,but what about those killed as if they were used kleenex? Do their lives not count? What about Job's kids? Did they deserve it, or were they just the collateral damage? Forgive the persistence, but I must reconcile these questions so I can move on in faith.
I have some peace today not knowing the answers to these things. I do believe it has something to do with our point of reference. Meaning, my insight is limited. I really have no idea how God works things out after death. But, I trust Him with it. I believe God is love, and I do believe we each have our own personal suffering we must endure. We each have our own story and our own place...our own ending. We don't get much of a say over all of that. But, I do believe death is an illusion. As Brennan Manning once put it, the boogie man of small children. It's not real. It's a passing from life into more life. Death could be seen as a mercy. But, from my limited and your limited insight we can only see what is front of our face. What it boils down to...do we trust God or not? Today, I chose to trust him with the unknown, the uncontrollable, the scarey boogie men hiding in the closet of my mind. I choose life.
Quote from: shawn on October 18, 2013, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: Deena on August 31, 2013, 07:33:13 AM
Ded,from what you presented, we are but sheep to slaughter. I can buy that if it is for a reason. How do you explain the 400 children killed in Syria's chemical attack fit in? Sorry to keep pressing,but what about those killed as if they were used kleenex? Do their lives not count? What about Job's kids? Did they deserve it, or were they just the collateral damage? Forgive the persistence, but I must reconcile these questions so I can move on in faith.
I have some peace today not knowing the answers to these things. I do believe it has something to do with our point of reference. Meaning, my insight is limited. I really have no idea how God works things out after death. But, I trust Him with it. I believe God is love, and I do believe we each have our own personal suffering we must endure. We each have our own story and our own place...our own ending. We don't get much of a say over all of that. But, I do believe death is an illusion. As Brennan Manning once put it, the boogie man of small children. It's not real. It's a passing from life into more life. Death could be seen as a mercy. But, from my limited and your limited insight we can only see what is front of our face. What it boils down to...do we trust God or not? Today, I chose to trust him with the unknown, the uncontrollable, the scarey boogie men hiding in the closet of my mind. I choose life.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
It's sad this came from UR circles. It still shows they don't understand Revelations. I personally believe there will be no great tribulation literally as Revelations is a symbolic and metaphorical book. So boogey down.. :banana:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil026.html