...why does the creature need forgiveness?
The word process comes to mind.
I keep asking that Beloved
"Forgive them Father for they KNOW not what they do"~ the bewitched Mind, the Poison of the Serpent~ The Illusion of this Life beneath , Until He awakes within~ :icon_flower:
I'm still just not gettin' it, Taffy.
Wow,this question is one that I have struggled with also. Perhaps the lack of posts on it reveal others also cannot reconcile it. This world seems to me to be a worst case scenario--we are stuck in dying bodies with a heart that is deceitfully wicked, with a bunch of people just as screwed up as we are, and all of us are faced with an relentless enemy who works to destroy us. I also read that God has done this on purpose (subjected all to futility). Why? So He can show mercy to all ? I dont get it either and at times this is a real stumbling block for me. I welcome any reply.
Quote from: Deena on December 10, 2011, 12:50:32 PM
Wow,this question is one that I have struggled with also. Perhaps the lack of posts on it reveal others also cannot reconcile it. This world seems to me to be a worst case scenario--we are stuck in dying bodies with a heart that is deceitfully wicked, with a bunch of people just as screwed up as we are, and all of us are faced with an relentless enemy who works to destroy us. I also read that God has done this on purpose (subjected all to futility). Why? So He can show mercy to all ? I dont get it either and at times this is a real stumbling block for me. I welcome any reply.
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Also being encased in flesh limits our power, which is kind of good, considering the destruction we sometimes cause to ourselves.
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.
(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
Maybe we need forgiveness not because God is holding an offence but because we need to feel ashamed for our wrongs in order to be made holy? We need to feel sorry and ask forgiveness for our own sake?
2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2011, 01:08:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.
(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
Not sure if plan is the right word. Perhaps sat back and looked to see what his creation would do.
:cloud9: This is what He gave me. We were not willing (which means we existed beforehand as spirit beings) to be lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption. Being lowered into this realm, IS a type of death and we were not willing to lay down our lives for our "friend" (Abraham was God's friend).
So He brought us here, to teach us so that by EXPERIENCE, we might come to be willing to lay down our lives for Him, which is the perfecting of love, for no greater love has any man than this.........blessings....
For me this question needs better answer than speculation. I agree thatlove wins,God has his perfect will in the end, but i need to know this life is more than a trail of tears. Why subject your beloved creation to it?
:cloud9: Because He wanted a creature that loved Him after knowing what love was NOT. Jesus was made perfect thru obedience; so are we. Blessings...
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2011, 01:08:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.
(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW
Assuming is something man would do and does.
I have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?) And please lets not attempt to assume that Isa. 14 teaches that.
Man does a great deal of assuming to make mans mind "get it."
But as far as " the creature was made subject to vanity( a temporary emptiness, profitless, even to claim self as an idol)"
Psa 82:6 I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;
God knew that what He made, on his own, would turn to what man thought he could gain without knowledge, that man's sole support remained in his creator.
But, I see that for me anyway, this is a step on the tabooed ground of free will or sovereignty, and I can't go there.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 11, 2011, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2011, 01:08:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.
(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW
Assuming is something man would do and does.
That's just how I try to avoid this thread becoming a no/yes rebellion thread :winkgrin:
QuoteI have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?)
Let me say there are different views on "beginning".
Was it Gen 1:1? Before Gen 1:1? It isn't beginning but beginningS (gap theory). Likely I forgot to mention a few :winkgrin:
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
--1 Cor 15:21
What I think [ and no one that I know agrees with me but that's ok], is that Adam is the one who decided to subject us to vanity, as he stood there watching his beloved Eve making the wrong choice, in hope--
that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. [Rom 8:21]
For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.
--! Cor 15:22
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2011, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 11, 2011, 06:54:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2011, 01:08:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.
(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW
Assuming is something man would do and does.
That's just how I try to avoid this thread becoming a no/yes rebellion thread :winkgrin:
QuoteI have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?)
Let me say there are different views on "beginning".
Was it Gen 1:1? Before Gen 1:1? It isn't beginning but beginningS (gap theory). Likely I forgot to mention a few :winkgrin:
WW, I am well aware that it is beginning(s) as well it is heaven(s) and that there is a gap. Now, we have the beginning of theories.... The way the Lord has me deal with these rebellion theories, a rebellion by devils or (?) in the beginning(s), something that important
should ought to have at the least been recorded somewhere in the beginning, I have not found this scrimmage as of yet. :dontknow:
Quote from Micah, "The word process comes to mind".
Amen, altho I am sure not evryone will see the process as I do, I do see it as a process, as follows :o)....
In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man..............TOUGH, IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN HAHAHAHA!
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD and WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR, For FROM HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS!
Ro. 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
According to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, FUTILITY entered- through transgression. Transgression occurred because of the pure gift of free will. It is through reconcilation, also a pure gift ,unmerited and freely given, - that the whole creation is being "drawn" out of darkness/chaos/iniquity into light/harmony/love. As each adversarial free will "comes into subjection"... "Bows the knee and confesses with the lips" the Lordship of Jesus, the creation comes closer to full deliverance from futility "into the glorious liberty(free wills united in love) of the sons of God". In other words, the whole creation was subjected to futility, even that part of creation that did not transgress-because of transgression. When every "adverserial free will" is won into the love of God.....the "whole creation" will be set free from futility.
God created it. He planned it. He set wheels within wheels in motion by giving free will to all, KNOWING the result and the final outcome(love wins)- for all things work according to the counsel of His will according to the kind intention which He purposed in Himself, the summing up of all things in heaven and in earth in Christ.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect(chosen) "according to(kata)" the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Futility:
mataiotés: vanity, emptiness
Original Word: ματαιότης, τητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: mataiotés
Phonetic Spelling: (mat-ah-yot'-ace)
Short Definition: vanity, purposelessness
Definition: vanity, emptiness, unreality, purposelessness, ineffectiveness, instability, frailty; false religion.... <missing the mark)
Cognate: 3153 mataiótēs (a noun) – aimlessness due to lacking purpose or any meaningful end; nonsense because transitory.... <this sounds like chaos to me)
seeing it is God who said, "Light will shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
IMO All wills were created free, allowing for chaos/division/darkness. The love of God(unveiled in Christ and Him crucified-) is drawing all wills into harmony/union/light. God planned the process before He created it- to teach all, and foreknew how it would all take place, as all things work according to the counsel of His will. His fundamental purpose in all of this(in my opinion) was to create an everlasting celebration of the glory of love encompassing the endless interaction of billions of creative beings, "the sound of 10,000s x 10,000s of voices praising God, like the rushing of many waters".
Forgiveness. Christ and Him crucified. The highest expression of love ever in the universe. Returning love for hatred and pain, life for death...."If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
This, I think, is why our oneness/union/koinonea/love is the key to evangelism. If we cannot forgive one another, who are born of Him, how will the world see that we are His disciples, who forgave us when we were yet adversaries, driving nails through His hands.
By this the world will know that you are my disciples.... Chirst crucified, unveiled in us, manifesting the wisdom of God to the principaliteis and pwers in the heavenly realms.....disarming them through the life of Christ lived through and among us, wow :o)
AWESOME Eaglesway!!! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.? I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on" :mshock:. As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign) due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?
Thanks, blessings, James.
Quote from: eagleswayAccording to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, FUTILITY entered- through transgression.
the creature was made subject to mataiotes--futility, transientness, moral depravity--by the reason of the one who subjected it in hope....
death came by [the choices of] Adam, the man,
Adam was not deceived...
...but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Tim 2:14
Adam was a very special man. I could sin all day long, but I really don't think anything I did could ever subject the whole human race, indeed the entire creation, to death and futility.
Thanks Molly, good job. :thumbsup: It can be done. :bigGrin:
Well Well Well! :msealed:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 12, 2011, 12:01:06 AM
Well Well Well! :msealed:
micah, restrain yourself! :pointlaugh:
Quote from: jabcat on December 12, 2011, 12:13:17 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 12, 2011, 12:01:06 AM
Well Well Well! :msealed:
micah, restrain yourself! :pointlaugh:
Not to worry, I will obey the barriers. Still I don't believe I would have been allowed 1/3 of those words without deletion.
I contend that without investigation of the tabooed subjects which are barred on this forum, no conclusions will come close to quieting the questions in our debates. We can only scratch the surface of any understanding, but the digging must stop and we go home. But Glory to God we can get this far! :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 12, 2011, 04:22:32 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 12, 2011, 12:13:17 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 12, 2011, 12:01:06 AM
Well Well Well! :msealed:
micah, restrain yourself! :pointlaugh:
I contend that without investigation of the tabooed subjects which are barred on this forum, no conclusions will come close to quieting the questions in our debates. We can only scratch the surface of any understanding, but the digging must stop and we go home.
Well, I don't know how else to say it, unless I took a specific post and re-wrote it as an example as to how pretty much ANYTHING can be discussed without using certain hot-button terms that just lead to fights. Many weren't here when all the fighting took place, so to suggest having free reign to just say whatever one wants would somehow fix things, I'll have to disagree. Not everyone is mature enough to handle it. All you have to do is a search on 'free will' or 'all sovereign' in the forum search box, and you'll see what has happened in the past - and that's with the worst stuff having already been deleted!
As far as scratching the surface, again, I believe pretty much anything can be discussed in creative terms. The point is, to not just reach for the "easy option" of tossing around catch-all phrases that in the end, really don't define the subject matter anyway. They're just a name for something that people can still fight about "ok, what does that mean"? For instance, is it free will, limited will, man's will, etc... or sovereignty...does that mean man doesn't make any choices at all, that he's a puppet on a string, a robot with a computer chip that was pre-programmed by God, or more so that man does make choices but within parameters God sets and allows, etc., but the end is ensured by God. See, just using a term such as free will or all sovereign doesn't explain those things - they're just some sort of categorical term that's used, that people still have questions about, and historically end up fighting about. So it doesn't get settled anyway. Again, just read through old threads from around 2007 and 2008, and you can see that it never got settled. People got feelings hurt, left the forum, and have been banned from the forum; all without it still being "settled".
All that said, Gary's main thrust for the forum is The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ; not to solve every possible problem known to man. So it
is somewhat limited - really from
anything that might end up distracting from that core message. That's also why it's more of a
discussion forum rather than an open, general
debate forum. So although WAY MUCH more is allowed than just strictly UR discussions, yes, there are some limits - and ensuring those limits is not always easy nor does it have a simple formula.
If we can, let's please get back to discussing the OP. We made it until today discussing it without any problems. It can be done! Some good things have been shared already. :thumbsup:
micah, if you or anyone else has any further moderating concerns, please just contact me by PM and we can certainly discuss them. That would be fine. :bigGrin:
Okay, what ever you say, I'm here to learn, but for me its like my grandma used to tell me when I had to use an "oil mop" to clean the hardwood and linoleum floors in the house on Saturdays before I could go out and play.
"You can't clean the room making round corners." :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 12, 2011, 05:06:45 AM
If we can, let's please get back to discussing the OP. We made it until today discussing it without any problems. It can be done! Some good things have been shared already. :thumbsup:
micah, if you or anyone else has any further moderating concerns, please just contact me by PM and we can certainly discuss them. That would be fine. :bigGrin:
My friend I do not believe I have anything more to say on this thread without crossing a line. So I'll just bow out. May the Lord continue to bless. :icon_king:
Sorry. Your posts have been fine. If you decide you can post more in this thread, it could still be helpful. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 11, 2011, 09:27:37 PM
Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.? I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on" :mshock:. As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign) due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?
Thanks, blessings, James.
Not sure if I crossed the line, but if I did...... apologies offered. I was not arguing free will versus anything- I was saying it works together with God's foreknowledge and predestined will in ways we can't define. Obviously, we need not be forgiven for something we never did, so inclusive in universal reconciliation is that there is something from which we have been reconciled. However, I will refrain from posting further in this thread, in order to avoid any conflict- mainly since I don't believe ANYONE fully understands it, especially me :o) I am open to further discussion in PM should anyone desire to discuss(not debate).
One reason;
EPh 2;7 " That He might point out in the on-coming ages the surpassing riches of His favour in graciousness upon us in Christ Jesus."
Alos,
Eph 3;10 " In order that now, to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenlies, might be made known, through means of the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to a plan of the ages which He made in the annointed Jesus our Lord."
And.
Eph 3;19 " To get to know the knowledge surpassing love of the Christ."
To get to know means we have to go through experiences.
We learn heaps from mistakes when we are shown the right way.
We are in a time of learning before the coming of the next age.
Before one becomes a judge one has to study right from wrong. Hence the lust of the flesh to stimulate that conflict.
1 Cor 6;2,3 " Or don't you know that the saints shall juge the world? And the world is to be judged by you are you unworth of the smallest judgement seats? Don't you know that we shall judge angels, and not then the matters of this life?"
The fact that Christ paid for us before we were born seems to indicate that He knew we would sin. Seems that creation would be made subject to vanity to sow that our creator is needed at ALL times, not just when we feel like it
So we are subject to vanity to depend on Christ. That then over-rides a society of heiararchy since we will ALL be equal in Christ. Our position of authority is In Christ.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM
In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......
Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form :winkgrin:
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.
The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? :dontknow:
No, vessels of honor and dishonor come to mind.
CHB
Does the scorpion need forgiveness for being a murderer from the beginning?
I guess I would ask a few questions...
1) Can a created being understand evil, overcoming, the love/forgiveness of God without the ability to choose? If created beings were made to spend eternity in the presence of God yet had no ability to choose evil what would that look like, and is that something God desires?
2) How can a created creature become an overcomer without having something to overcome? Is this something that God wants? Does He want His creation to overcome with Christ?
3) While all are subjected now, not all overcome now. So, is this what predestination looks like? Formed for noble vs common use?
I personally believe we are here to learn, grow and become one with Christ. I believe this to be the method which God uses to form vessels for eternal service in His presence.
So, back to the original question...why does the creature need forgiveness? Is it possible that when spiritual creatures are placed into carnal flesh that this creature inherently knows good from evil...when they have grieved God? All people deal with shame and guilt due to violations of God's law written on their heart. Why do they need forgiveness? To sooth the anger of our All Powerful God? I would suggest not. I would suggest it's to sooth the guilt and shame of the soul that had been subjected to vanity. Only a sacrifice as amazing and awesome as our God in flesh dying in our place could restore us to spiritual sanity, allow us to accept relationship, and desolve feelings of shame, guilt and worthlessness.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 12, 2011, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM
In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......
Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form :winkgrin:
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.
The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? :dontknow:
Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.
Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 12, 2011, 08:27:41 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 11, 2011, 09:27:37 PM
Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.? I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on" :mshock:. As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign) due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?
Thanks, blessings, James.
Not sure if I crossed the line, but if I did...... apologies offered. I was not arguing free will versus anything- I was saying it works together with God's foreknowledge and predestined will in ways we can't define. Obviously, we need not be forgiven for something we never did, so inclusive in universal reconciliation is that there is something from which we have been reconciled. However, I will refrain from posting further in this thread, in order to avoid any conflict- mainly since I don't believe ANYONE fully understands it, especially me :o) I am open to further discussion in PM should anyone desire to discuss(not debate).
Let me tell you a little story of the red cape and the bull... :laughing7:
Quote from: lomarah on December 11, 2011, 08:37:06 PM
AWESOME Eaglesway!!! :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love that eaglesway. i love the wheel within a wheel analogy.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 12, 2011, 04:47:54 PMDoes the scorpion need forgiveness for being a murderer from the beginning?
Who designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved :winkgrin:, into frog killers?
Mankind is veiled. Who put on that veil? It could be argued that perhaps mankind by choose to wear that veil. (I don't thing that's teh meaning of the verse)
1Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.
Not saying "Jesus is Lord" is an important sign of being veiled imo. From the veil it could possibly argued man had a choice. But man has zero control over the Holy Spirit.
So I think the HS controls the veils; including those of scorpions.
Quote from: wwWho designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved , into frog killers?
I think one could say the scorpion is another part of this fallen world, and another example of it.
When the world is restored the scorpion won't have a deadly sting, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.
Clearly God has veiled many, but the question is why?
Why would God do that?
Is he hiding the truth, not from an earthly host but a heavenly one?
Paul tells us that the church is now making known to this heavenly host what has heretofore been kept a mystery,
while we were hidden in Christ.
Maybe this is why he no longer winks.
Quote from: thinktank on December 12, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 12, 2011, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM
In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darkly because His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......
Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form :winkgrin:
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.
The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behavior of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? :dontknow:
Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.
Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.
Could be an excuse to a certain extend. Yes.
Why do you think the scenario never is going to happen? Because frogs can't talk? Just visit France and you know :laughing7: twaz just a parable :winkgrin:
But there is a documented test that shows some similarity.
A group of people were put in classroom with computers. All started with $1000 of virtual money. Whatever they would have left at the end of the test they would get paid in real cash.
People started doing the game on their PCs and made or lost money. They all tried to earn as much as possible. The wins or losses where not depended of the other candidates. So in theory everyone could become a millionaire.
Then the game changed. People could see how much the other candidates made. They could also take certain choices that would cause other people to loose. But that option did cost them money.
Many used lots of money to make others fail.
Causing failure for others was more important than earning money.
===> Killing the frog was more important that crossing the river alive.
I can't remember the exact detail and name of the test but I think it's just the type of thing James knows more about.
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2011, 10:36:01 PM
Quote from: wwWho designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved , into frog killers?
I think one could say the scorpion is another part of this fallen world, and another example of it.
When the world is restored the scorpion won't have a deadly sting, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.
Clearly God has veiled many, but the question is why?
Why would God do that?
Those questions can ony be answered by unveiled people. :laughing7:
QuoteIs he hiding the truth, not from an earthly host but a heavenly one?
a] He actively hides the truth.
b] He is not actively showing the truth.
There are more variants but I'm sure you understand what I mean.
QuotePaul tells us that the church is now making known to this heavenly host what has heretofore been kept a mystery, while we were hidden in Christ.
If Paul says so it must be the truth.
But I wonder if it's still the truth. For me, because there is more than one denomination it means the mystery is back. People started mixing pure teachings of teh 12 with their own stuff. Result... not even the people who are right are sure they are right.
QuoteMaybe this is why he no longer winks.
I think He winks as much as ever. Maybe the veils were (partly) lifted for a while but 2000 years church added 666 new veils.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 12, 2011, 10:41:54 PM
Quote from: thinktank on December 12, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 12, 2011, 10:18:50 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM
In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darkly because His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......
Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form :winkgrin:
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.
The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behavior of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? :dontknow:
Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.
Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.
Could be an excuse to a certain extend. Yes.
Why do you think the scenario never is going to happen? Because frogs can't talk? Just visit France and you know :laughing7: twaz just a parable :winkgrin:
But there is a documented test that shows some similarity.
A group of people were put in classroom with computers. All started with $1000 of virtual money. Whatever they would have left at the end of the test they would get paid in real cash.
People started doing the game on their PCs and made or lost money. They all tried to earn as much as possible. The wins or losses where not depended of the other candidates. So in theory everyone could become a millionaire.
Then the game changed. People could see how much the other candidates made. They could also take certain choices that would cause other people to loose. But that option did cost them money.
Many used lots of money to make others fail.
Causing failure for others was more important than earning money.
===> Killing the frog was more important that crossing the river alive.
I can't remember the exact detail and name of the test but I think it's just the type of thing James knows more about.
Did they really pay money?
The mind is a powerful thing, especially under pressure. The candidates may subconciously pick up that there is no real money to be gained, so they mayaswell feed their instincts and have fun, eliminating the other contestants, in a virtual world.
As an example, which is unrelated but yet demonstrates the power of the mind. Did you knwo that scinetists say that the act of observing, changes the result of the experiment.
Quote from: thinktank on December 13, 2011, 01:14:24 AMDid they really pay money?
I think yes.
QuoteThe mind is a powerful thing, especially under pressure. The candidates may subconciously pick up that there is no real money to be gained, so they mayaswell feed their instincts and have fun, eliminating the other contestants, in a virtual world.
As an example, which is unrelated but yet demonstrates the power of the mind. Did you knwo that scinetists say that the act of observing, changes the result of the experiment.
Th econtestants knew they were monitored. But they didn't know the real purpose of the tests. Unfortunately I can't remember more details. Neither do I have link for you. Perhaps James has more info, because it's in his line of work. (I think)