if Jesus paid for all sin, then why a hell at all?

[NinjaWizards777]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

[legoman]

Simple answer: There is no hell!

But of course there is a lake of fire... fire is used for purifying, refining, and purging.  Just because we are all saved doesn't mean we are all perfect right now.  We will be made perfect - that is what God's judgments and God's various fires (gehenna, furnace of fire, lake of fire, etc) will do.

People aren't punished in "hell" (even a temporary one) just to be punished for their sins.  Any perceived punishment is ultimately corrective so we can learn to be righteous.  (Isaiah 26:9 for example).


I think there is a more subtle point to be raised as well.  Your question says: "God punished sin in Christ"... is that really what happened?  God punished sin in Christ?  Really?  Christ had sin in him?  Christ was blameless.  He was a sin offering, but not sin itself.  Christ was a sin offering, just like the old testament sacrifices were sin offerings.  His sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world.  Its done, its finished.

Yet we still sin and need to learn how to NOT sin.  That is what any fire (spiritual fire) we experience will do - it will teach us not to sin.

[sven]

I would answer, Christ by His sacrifice saved me from eternal death (i.e. annihilation) by defeating death and the devil who had power over death, therefore all men will gain everlasting life, however some will not be fit yet for paradise when they die or when Christ returns, therefore they have to been corrected in order that they may take their part in the world to come.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus paid for the wages of sin.
But that doesn't mean our bad works won't be burned up.
Everyone will be salted with fire.

We are still accountable for our sins.
Otherwise it would mean even murder is fine because Jesus payed for it.
So my guess is that the salting with fire get longer/more painful if the amount of sins is higher.
:2c:

[Seth]

I had someone ask me this today, and Im trying to think of a good way to word my response.

So then God has both already punished said sin in Christ yet these people who are/will be in hell will also pay that same debit for a period of time. How do you reconcile this, it is literally the definition of unjust, if Christ paid the sin for every one then why a hell at all?

Well, like legoman said, no hell.

And like WW, everyone will be salted with fire.

The cross of Christ was a judgment against sin. In Romans 6 we see that the physical cross of Christ was just as symbolic of the Spiritual work of the Holy Spirit within us, as pretty much anything else physically done by God. Concerning salvation from sin, you can think of the cross as a statement of intent, that by the Holy Spirit the old man of sin within our minds will be placed on the cross, killed, so that a new man may be resurrected and walk in newness of life.

Christ died to fulfill the promise to Abraham: to give us a new way of life by the Spirit.

[Beloved Servant]

Sinful flesh tortured and killed innocent flesh.
What does redeem mean?
There was an "undo" button.
And there is a false humility as well as false pride when realizing that we simply had to learn.

[NinjaWizards777]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

[Beloved Servant]

Think of it as Jesus paying for YOUR sin, not everybody's, though that is true.
And the corrective aspect seems not pleasant.
But, when you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away.

[legoman]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

[NinjaWizards777]

Yeah, the whole consequences of sin thing is kindof how I explained it to the person who asked the question. Perhaps part of the problem is just me still readjusting in my head why Jesus died and how that relates to both believers and non(yet eventual) believers

[cre8ed2worship]

It is not about judgment.  It is about being transformed into the image of Christ!  There are three baptisms talked about in the Word.

Baptism in Water (New Birth)
Baptism in Spirit (New life/power)
Baptism in Fire (Transforming power) Luke 12:49

Think about this:
When a log is consumed by fire every single molecule is changed, but the molecules do not disappear although you would think that something disappears considering the mass of the log has changed, but every molecule is still there but just transformed.  It is reduced to its purest form.

Now if you are called to sonship you will willingly submit to the purifying baptism of fire right now while you live, but if you do not, you will eventually submit even if you have to be dragged into the fire.  You will endure the baptism of fire one way or the other!
But praise be to God that it is the Holy, consuming, fire, and shekinah glory of the Father!!!

Sign me up for a cabin by the Lake right now... and *Lord bathe me until there is no dross left!*
:Pray:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen...... :thumbsup:

[peacemaker]

"When you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away."

A functional vibration and morphological fluctuation within the cells in response to changing conditions.  :gthumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

cre8ed2worship
Cardinal
peacemaker
Beloved Servant

Do you love me?

[peacemaker]

Perhaps the most important of all questions: "Do you love me?"

Love is essential, for without it, nothing else matters.  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

There is good article on this but I can't find it. It's on a UR forum/blog. Possibly here but I'm unable to find it.

The Bible states that Jesus payed for our sins.
But the Bible also states the only way to Father is by believing in the Son.
That are two seperate things.

Ninja,
Was the person that asked you that question an ET? I ask because they have the same 'problems' with that verse as we do. They believe Jesus payed for the sins but at the same time they don't promote living like mad man to have benefit from the works of Jesus.
:2c:

[Seth]

Jesus died to save us from death

Life is to know God (John 17:3)

To know someone, you must believe they exist.

[WhiteWings]

I think the meaning of "know God" is more that just agreeing He exists.
I think for example you must also know His character and agree with His decisions. Millions have known Hitler but not all benefitted from it.  Understatement of the year.

[Seth]

I think the meaning of "know God" is more that just agreeing He exists.
I think for example you must also know His character and agree with His decisions. Millions have known Hitler but not all benefitted from it.  Understatement of the year.

WW, I totally agree. It's WAY more than agreeing he exists:

1 John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Just to add a point, I think taking the whole of John's statements, he means to not ABIDE in sin continually, and if we continue to walk and abide in sin, we know him not. So LIFE is deliverance from the works of the devil, which is sin, which works death in them who abide in death.

So intellectual belief is the groundwork for knowledge of God. To know God is to be set free from death.

This is all just to say that while there is no hell, there is no ARBITRARY belief clause. The purpose of belief is completely practical and logical.

[Beloved Servant]

"When you sing above the things that taunt you, the chains will fall away."

A functional vibration and morphological fluctuation within the cells in response to changing conditions.  :gthumbsup:

I've been thinking on this for days and still smile about it.
Truly an awesome post.

[sparrow]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

I agree. We have pretty much the same view, legoman.

[legoman]

its still confusing trying to explain how Jesus paid for everyones sins, yet most will still have to suffer temporarily for those sins. I realize there is a corrective aspect to it, and is the sole purpose behind it but still

What are you meaning by "suffering temporarily"?  Many people (all people I guess?) suffer temporarily in this life we have now.  Are you still thinking of hell as a place of literal/mental torture in fire, albeit it is now only for a finite period of time?  I don't think that is the right view.

The bible is quite clear that everyone will reap what they sow.  Even believers.  So if you sin as a believer, you still reap the consequences of that sin.  If you sin as an unbeliever, same thing.

I believe part of the "suffering temporarily" will be the pressure of shame in realizing all your faults and realizing the sins you had done.


Take some examples.  A man commits murder.  What are the consequences?  He gets caught, thrown in jail, and is executed, missing out on a happy life.  Or he doesn't get caught and lives with mental anguish and guilt.  Or he doesn't get caught and is happy he got away with it, only to have the full scale of his crime revealed in front of God on judgment day.  MASSIVE SHAME.

Think about Hitler for another example.  People always think surely Hitler deserves to be tortured in fire for a few million years.  But think about his life.  Would you actually want to be Hitler?  He definitely had mental issues, definitely didn't understand love, probably had a lonely sad life that relied on a power trip to blame a whole race of people for the problems of his country. He finally killed himself when it all crashed down.  Think about the shame Hitler will feel when he gives account of his loveless life before God, and then realizes that God will still save him!


Now consider a believer.  Before he was a believer, maybe he sinned without thought, and then reaped the consequences.  When he became a believer - he realized the same thing Hitler will realize!  He will feel great shame for all his past sins, but knows that God will save him!

The only difference between the greatest believer and the worst unbelever is the timing of when the conversion takes place.  God is not a respector of persons.

Some of it comes down to this: what is the lake of fire.  You should talk to willieH.  He thinks the lake of fire is NOW.  We are living it.  I'm not sure myself, but it might be true.

Just some things to think on.

I agree. We have pretty much the same view, legoman.

Awesome sparrow!  Why can't other people see it though?  They always feel someone always has to burn or its not "justice"...  :sigh:

Before I learned of UR, periodically in my life I would have doubts as to whether I was really saved or not, because of the sin in my life.  I knew I wasn't obedient, how could I endure hell?

Then I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

That is how my thought process went.  YAY God will only burn people in fire for millions of years instead of eternity!  What a burden lifted!  God's love is so great! How little did I still know about God's love...

This led me to think more... of course burning someone for eternity is purposeless... but what is the purpose of burning someone for a finite million years in fire?!?  It is ALSO PURPOSELESS!  Such physical pain and anguish for millenia is also senseless and unloving.  God would not do such a compassionless and unloving thing.  

Look at this life we have now.  Some people live very painful lives, maybe for 80 years max.  Is this unloving of God to put a person through this?  Yet even in extreme cases, God leaves glimmers of faith and hope open - that is what God is teaching the person - there is hope, the hope of death, the hope of God redeeming them after death.  Even though some people experience pain for 80 years, perhaps they still experience some joy in their life as well.  

But to put a person in literal fire for one million years.  This is a sick, twisted belief.  It also makes no sense, because the person would BURN UP and therefore not last one million years.  You can twist it and say their skin regenerates so they feel the pain over and over, but again this is senseless purposeless evil, and nothing less.

I am quite convinced that the lake of fire is either:

1. our experiences in this life

Or:

2. a classroom after the resurrection where all will be revealed, and many will feel great shame.  Now this may take eons, but it will only take as long as necessary for each person to realize what they had done and to realize that they need God's love.  It will be far more purposeful than simply torturing a person in literal fire for a million years.

Peace out.  

[legoman]

One further point, regarding the elect (chosen) and non-elect (called but not chosen, or not even called). Yes there is an elect and a non-elect.  ETers (Calvinists especially) will always say this proves God chooses a certain people to be saved.

But here is the real explanation.  The only difference (right now at least) between the elect and the non-elect, is that God has chosen the elect to understand what is happening.  We don't even understand fully, but we know that God is using his fire to perfect us.  The non-elect, which IMHO may include ETers, annihilationists, other religions, atheists, etc.  They don't realize what the purpose of this life is.  The elect do.  

Now with this knowledge, the elect can help the rest of the world.  They will be kings, judges, priests and ministers.  We need to minister and help the rest of the world.

JMHO.

[WhiteWings]

Then I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

Hi LM, Hi Sparrow,

I never heard of the UR view that people burn in literal fire. Neither I've read about a million year. Sounds more like a RC purgatory.
Of course I haven't read all UR viewpoints....  :winkgrin:

I'm making no firm statement here because I'm still not sure myself.
IF there is a fire it's spiritual. A type I can't comprehend so I won't even attempt to describe it. I'm less sure of the duration but my current view is something with a duration of 1 to 365 days.

I'm also aware some think LoF/hell is right now. I think that view isn't (totally) incompatible with the above.
Just a few thoughts to consider.

[legoman]

Then I learned of UR.  What a relief!  Now instead of a spending an eternity in literal fire, I figured I would only have to spend maybe a million years or so in literal fire!   :thumbdown:

Hi LM, Hi Sparrow,

I never heard of the UR view that people burn in literal fire. Neither I've read about a million year. Sounds more like a RC purgatory.

Hi, wasn't an "official UR" view, just my own twisted view of what non-ET must mean.  I still didn't understand what the lake of fire was. e.i.  being thrown into a lake of fire for ages of ages (ie millions of years).