Tentmaker Forum

We've had soul sleep discussions from time to time on the boards, including recently in another ongoing thread or two.

My personal belief is, there's probably some truths somewhere in the middle that we're missing/just unable to see.  Maybe it's too big for us.  Maybe we're not ready for it.  Maybe we won't know for sure until "later".  My question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?


Seems to me there are these basic beliefs in Christendom.

a)  Belief; we live, die, immediately go to heaven or hell for eternity.  Related issues;  somehow (usually unexplained) later on there's still a judgment, then people are REALLY put where they're going to be forever.  (they leave for awhile then go back?)

b) Belief;  we live, die, go to some sort of holding place until judgment.  Related issues;  this may be thousands of years later.  There are different levels in this place, some better, some worse - better for the Christians/good folks, worse for the non-Christians/bad folks, but still not eternal heaven or hell.  That comes later after judgment.

c) Belief;  we live, die, and stay dead knowing absolutely nothing until resurrection/judgment. Related issues;  some state the scriptures this is often based on, actually have a larger context - that they are talking about IN THIS EARTHLY REALM, having to do with activities and "knowing" in THIS life - not necessarily excluding that they could be somewhere else

d) Belief;  we live, die, and have already been judged IN THIS LIFETIME.   Related issues;  What has actually happened to bring the people to the Lord that didn't know him in this lifetime?  Simply dying?  What about the Lake of Fire, the work of God to bring mankind to Him in the 'aions', the "works destroyed and the saving of the spirit in the Day of the Lord", etc.? 

e) Belief;  we live, die, and are immediately judged upon death - different times for everyone, not all judged at the same place/time.  Related issues;  same as (d) above.

I've thought and wondered about all the above.  I've waffled/changed my POV at times (obviously, from (a) when I believed in ET).  IMO, there's more to it than ANY of these options fully entail.  I believe we're missing something, that's it may be a mixture of a couple of these.

Some related thoughts;  what I shared about my dad in this post [last paragraph] http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/why_is_death_feared_thing_9956.msg128234.html#msg128234;    NDEs I've read;  a statement I saw on a documentary about 9/11, where a man states (I believe his brother, killed in the horrible attacks) "said" to him, "I can't explain to you how beautiful it is here".  [Really "him" in some plane/realm?  Something posing as an angel of light?  Imagination?  I'm not sure.]

REQUEST:  Please don't just "jump" to defend your current position tooth and nail, just because as humans we can, well, get defensive. :smile:

Do you think it's possible the question is valid, "How much do we not know"?

Just me personally, the brother who heard what he says, probably heard it... in his "heart" that emotional part of feelings[cant explain that,] there was I "think" a great and close bond. I do not disbelieve he heard what he says he heard, I just suggest that is what he felt that his brother would have said if it were to be possible to know.
This may sound abrasive, I dont mean to be that way, but I feel its all in how you have been raised or chose to understand someone close dying.

It is a good question to ponder. Thanks :bigGrin:

 :bigGrin:

I personally have been considering immediate judgment, and then for unbelievers, whatever conditions one needs set to bring repentance and bowing and confessing Jesus as Lord.

But then the main thing that throws me there is, not sure where the resurrections would fit in there.

My answer to my own question;  I think there's much we don't know, and since we don't know, we can't say what all it is that we don't know.   :laughing7:

Where were you when I laid the foundations, I'm the one who stretches out the heavens.

These types of things along with the vastness of the universe, the anthropomorphic principal of the universe (the fine tuning required for sustaining life on earth, in our solar system, galaxy, etc) the amazing design of the human body, and the tiny little bit we actually understand about it, DNA , the incredible depth of complexity to the Bible, etc etc, make me realize we know jack squat.

Peter had a hard time understanding Pauls new revelation of the mystery.  Quite possibly the disciples themselves misunderstood Johns Revelation thinking it meant the immediate (by AD 70) bodily return of Jesus.

Creation was subject to futility, the mind is tainted.

A very good apologetic for UR I think.  How could we be expected to get it right (on our own) with all of the above in mind.  I don't think it matters, because we can't get it right on our own anyway, we're all exactly where we're supposed to be.  Not that we shouldn't strive for the truth, what better goal to have then to know Him face to face.

as to the question at hand again I don't think it matters, by that we won't know either way, and outside of the spacetime continuum time is irrelevant.  To us here it would pass as 10,000 years, but to the person who dies its like blinking, one blink you're here then you either go to heaven immediately, or you don't but you don't know because you've stepped outside of spacetime once you die and time is irrelevant, (or at least is no longer linear) to the people on earth time will pass, not for you.  so when the resurrection happens everyone wakes up at the same? time, and each person feels like they have only just closed their eyes like blinking. 

Thats the way I see things :happy3:

I understand this and I believe this, those who have ears to hear To Day, now are being judged. And I also understand that those who hear To Day are going through the LOF now To Day and are being judged (Gehenna fire) now and will be in the first rising again[resurrection] and they will be there to judge along with Jesus. These are called the Manifested Sons, The Overcomer, received The Prize of the High Calling, Those completing the Race.

At least that's how I understand it. I am sure that a lot of people who hear, cannot believe that they can possibly be in that wonderful group, but that is up to HIM. As for me, I will continue on this walk and hope that my pace is the pace of the race.

Bless the Lord.
Psa 100:4  Enter ye His gates with thanksgiving, His courts with praise, Give ye thanks to Him, bless ye His Name.
Psa 100:5  For good is Jehovah, to the age His kindness, And to generation and generation His faithfulness!

Quote from: redhotmagma on September 10, 2011, 02:45:48 AM
Where were you when I laid the foundations, I'm the one who stretches out the heavens.

These types of things along with the vastness of the universe, the anthropomorphic principal of the universe (the fine tuning required for sustaining life on earth, in our solar system, galaxy, etc) the amazing design of the human body, and the tiny little bit we actually understand about it, DNA , the incredible depth of complexity to the Bible, etc etc, make me realize we know jack squat.

Peter had a hard time understanding Pauls new revelation of the mystery.  Quite possibly the disciples themselves misunderstood Johns Revelation thinking it meant the immediate (by AD 70) bodily return of Jesus.

Creation was subject to futility, the mind is tainted.

A very good apologetic for UR I think.  How could we be expected to get it right (on our own) with all of the above in mind.  I don't think it matters, because we can't get it right on our own anyway, we're all exactly where we're supposed to be.  Not that we shouldn't strive for the truth, what better goal to have then to know Him face to face.

as to the question at hand again I don't think it matters, by that we won't know either way, and outside of the spacetime continuum time is irrelevant.  To us here it would pass as 10,000 years, but to the person who dies its like blinking, one blink you're here then you either go to heaven immediately, or you don't but you don't know because you've stepped outside of spacetime once you die and time is irrelevant, (or at least is no longer linear) to the people on earth time will pass, not for you.  so when the resurrection happens everyone wakes up at the same? time, and each person feels like they have only just closed their eyes like blinking. 

Thats the way I see things :happy3:

Interesting. :HeartThrob:

Our first death was with Adam in the Garden, the second death is when we are dead, buried and resurrected in Christ.

Romans 6:7 "for he who has died is freed from sin."

When Christ died on the Cross He conquered death for everyone. But not everyone has died to death. Even Christians may have been dead and buried, yet not resurrected in Christ. Simply put they have not overcome and entered into His Life.

God is an all consuming fire. Nothing carnal or unpure will enter His Kingdom.

In Revelation we have the Spirit speaking to the seven churches. In Revelation 2:11 the Spirit says this " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'"

Notice the Spirit does not say they will not have a part in the second death, (which is the lake of fire - Rev 20:14) but they will not be hurt or harmed. Everyone will pass through the purifying fires. Anything that is hay, wood or stubble will be burnt away.

The Babylonian Church of our time believes they are safe from the Lake of Fire. Yet they too will have their part, for their hearts are above all deceitful.

Imagine a non-believer or Babylonian Christian having any untruth within them and standing in the blinding Glory of Christ Who is Truth. It will be a most unpleasant time for those during that age when God's purifying fire is being poured out on them, but it will be for their future glory!

Quote from: jabcat on September 10, 2011, 01:25:41 AMMy personal belief is, there's probably some truths somewhere in the middle that we're missing/just unable to see.  Maybe it's too big for us.  Maybe we're not ready for it.  Maybe we won't know for sure until "later".  My question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?

You can't prove a negative....
The Bible is focused on certain tihings and only writes about those thing. For example the Bible would be a pretty good history book for Jews. But not for all the other people those Jews meet. While the Bible is quite good at describing the life of the Jews it doesn't even attempt to decribe the life of other people. Take for example the Egyptians, they are only mentioned because they interacted with the Jews several times. We could start discussing Egyptian dynasties based on the Bible but it wouldn't lead anywhere. To little info.
I think we see the same in other area's. The Bible is mainly about this lifetime and this earth. There is no in depth description of heaven. Only sideways mentioning of things. A few verses that hint toward pre-existance and soul sleep; but honestly speaking they are so vague they can't be used for much. Rememeber the discussion about about angels a few week back? On paintings we see angels that look like cupid complete with bow and arrow. But when discussing angels (do they have wings etc) it seems nobody can bring lots of relevant verse to the table. A handful of vague verses. Angels are mentioned a few times because they interacted with the Jews. Not because the Bible wanted to teach something about those angels.
So my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world. Nothing else is be told. Yeah, we read about good life in heaven/paradise (even paradise is something not agreed on) but just try for yourself to collect ten verses that really describe heaven. It will be a difficult task I think.
Imo the Bible clearly never pretends to be a Book explaining everything about everyone/everything. Some of that can be easily verified. We know about every Jewish king. But we also know there where more Pharao;s and Roman leaders than discussed in the Bible.
So I think that is clear proof there is much more than the Bible explains.

QuoteMy question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?

Many things.  :2c:

You are absolutely correct WW on many of those pieces of information. I have said many times the Bible is not a literal history book. But the Christian religion believes that it is a book of history and that is a reason for their failure to see.

There is really nothing that one can say the Bible teaches about heaven or for that matter eternity, but much is impressed upon those that want to believe.

As you say about angels as well, if only the word angels was translated properly as messengers, we would have very little of all the imaginations that have been brought forth by man.

For what ever reason the Lord God had or has, He chose the Jewish/ Hebrew nation to be that special people. Its not the natural history that the Bible teaches but the life of the creature that God wanted to be the heritage and blood line of those who will hear and obey, that was to grow from that line.

I have said, and I believe that the entire Bible is a parable. Does the Bible give us a  literal history, yes, but it is secondary to what the Bible teaches.

We know absolutely nothing about what the OT reveals unless the Spirit reveals what it has to offer.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2011, 09:40:54 AM


I have said, and I believe that the entire Bible is a parable. Does the Bible give us a  literal history, yes, but it is secondary to what the Bible teaches.

We know absolutely nothing about what the OT reveals unless the Spirit reveals what it has to offer.

I was a staunch iiteralist, now I agree with the above statemtent.

Quote from: MicahAs you say about angels as well, if only the word angels was translated properly as messengers, we would have very little of all the imaginations that have been brought forth by man.

We have a whole thread devoted to this, but just for the record, let me say that 'messenger' is just one of the definition for the Hebrew word, malak.   Another definition is 'angels.'  Two definitions for the same word.  Angels are not always 'messengers.'  Michel is a warrior angel, and a protector of Israel.

I also disagree that the Bible is a parable. One could look at it that way, for sure.  The Bible has many levels to it.  But, the first level, the one on which we stand, is that it is the literal truth.  Without that, you might as well read fairy tales.

Quote from: wwSo my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world

It's about the generations of Adam.  And, it's about Israel--twelve tribes.  Judah is only one of those tribes.  It's about all twelve.  And, last but not least, it's about Jesus.

Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   :2c:

Quote from: jabcat on September 10, 2011, 08:16:14 PM
Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   :2c:

OK.  But, hint:  the 'gentiles' after the cross are mostly the ten lost tribes of Israel. 

We are Israel.

Romans 9
New American Standard Bible

26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
         THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

I believe we're "accepted" as Israel, spiritually, due to our having been grafted in.  So yes, in that regard, we can be called sons of God. 

"You will say, 'branches were broken off so that I may be grafted in...if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you."

I don't believe we're the natural branches.  The woman who was not a Jew, in the context of Jesus pretty much ignoring her, saying "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel", and Him calling all but His chosen, "dogs", I believe was all referring to "us".  I'm a Gentile, can't speak for everyone else I guess :)

Maybe you're getting at something else, maybe there are other/deeper currents that have to do with the tribes, I don't know.  But IMO, the above has to be part of the equation.   Maybe it all fits together somehow   :search:

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 08:10:57 PM

Quote from: wwSo my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world

It's about the generations of Adam.  And, it's about Israel--twelve tribes.  Judah is only one of those tribes.  It's about all twelve.  And, last but not least, it's about Jesus.

Agreed. Jesus is also a Jew so was included in my quote.

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 08:18:05 PM

Quote from: jabcat on September 10, 2011, 08:16:14 PM
Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   :2c:

OK.  But, hint:  the 'gentiles' after the cross are mostly the ten lost tribes of Israel. 

We are Israel.

Romans 9
New American Standard Bible

26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
         THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

:thumbsup:

I'm getting at something else.  Long story short--Israel, all twelve tribes, had three kings--Saul, David, and Solomon.   Then, because of the abominations of Solomon, God snatched the kingdom out of his hands and gave it to Solomon's servant.   The twelve tribes of Israel broke up into two kingdoms--the northern kingdom, called the House of Israel, and the southern kingdom, called the House of Judah.  The southern kindom, Judah, contained two tribes, Judah and Benjamin [plus some Levites].  The northern kingdom, Israel, contained the remaining ten tribes.

Both groups were exiled for their 'whoring ways'--first the northern kingdom to assyria in 722 bc, and 200 years later the southern kingdom to Babylon.  The southern kingdom, Judah, returned to the land of Israel and rebuilt the Temple.  The northern kingdom never returned.  They are the lost [ten] tribes of Israel.  God scattered them among the nations.

Did you learn this history in Sunday school?  God promises to bring the lost tribes back and put both sticks in one hand--Judah and Israel--and they shall become one.  Jesus says, I am only come to the lost sheep [tribes] of Israel--that is, the ten lost tribes who have lost their identity over the centuries as the people of YHWH.


Thus, are the gentiles called by Paul--the wild olive tree--versus Judah--the cultivated olive tree.  God is grafting the branches of one olive tree [wild] onto another [cultivated].



19answer them: Thus says the Lord GOD: I will take the stick of Joseph, now in Ephraim's hand, and the tribes of Israel associated with it, and join to it the stick of Judah, making them one stick; they shall become one in my hand.
--Eze 14

Quote from: jabcat on September 10, 2011, 08:32:43 PMMaybe you're getting at something else, maybe there are other/deeper currents that have to do with the tribes, I don't know.  But IMO, the above has to be part of the equation.   Maybe it all fits together somehow   :search:

Molly wrote "lost tribes". The theories on that are enough to fill  a long thread. As a summary I can say (according to some views) a tribe became (part of) the Indians of Amerika. The mixed with the Europeans. Basicly the tribes are found in every spot op the world.

Quote from: Jabcat"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel"

And IF the lost tribes theories are (partly) correct, those tribes could even qualify as the lost sheep.

 All dead in Adam..are lost sheep..all raised in Christ are Israel.

   intersting thing I came across yeasterday...the muslim/Arabss[those of Ishmael] see themselves as the nations that receive the Kingdom...

  when it was 'lost' by Israel.   God said Ishmael would  be the father of 12 rulers

Hosea 1
1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

2The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

3So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

5And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.

6And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

--Hos 1

How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   :bgdance:

...the muslims look for a coming 'mahdi'  that will be of the blloodline of both 'Ishmael' and 'Jesus Christ'....he will clean up doctrine etc

I agree with a lot of what has been said, WW describes the physical side of the Bible as far as it pertaining mostly to Israel, which I agree with. I also think some is directed at us, especially Paul's writings. I don't think we are the "ten lost tribes".

I don't think, lets say I am "pretty positive" no one has, or ever will know all the truth. Just think what big heads there would be if this was possible.

I was just thinking today about what Paul said about keeping our minds on things above and not on things of this earth. How are we suppose to do that when we do not know nor have we ever seen anything above? Paul could probably do this because he had an experience of heaven but how do we?

Quote from: jabcat
I believe we're "accepted" as Israel, spiritually, due to our having been grafted in.  So yes, in that regard, we can be called sons of God.

jabcat, I think this grafting of the Gentiles was before Paul understood the Mystery. Paul came to see later that we don't have to be grafted into Israel because we are of the family of God, not the family of Israel. God is our Father, not Israel. We don't need to be a citizen of Israel to be saved now.

Just some things I think I know.  :laughing7: :2c:

CHB

Joh 12:40  `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

My comment about being a literalist meant that I didn't think there was much to the allegory except the extremely allegorical.  I still believe the history in the bible is true and based on real events, just like our currency is based on gold, currency being an abstract gold being a concrete thing.  Oh wait our currency isn't based on gold, what were we saying about fairytales?
I agree with the many levels concept.

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 09:29:41 PM
How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   :bgdance:

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

I don't know how you can ignore that statement.  It gnawed at me for years.  Or this one--how do you know you are a lost sheep?  Ans: You know his voice.

My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me.
--John 10:27

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.


Who are the sheep?

King James Bible
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

--Isa 53:6


Was that said to 'gentiles'? 

for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
--Isa 53:8


Halleluyah!  We know his voice!

I don't know what point you are making. But


Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

This does not mean that there are not lost sheep outside of Israel.

You yourself said that in Jesus time only the house of Judah were in Israel. So the other houses are outside Israel. These are also Gods sheep.

Now the Samaritans who are gentiles, can be grafted into Israel, by believing in the seed of Abraham. That faith makes them an Israelite, so that Jesus is not ashamed to call them brethren.

But my case was that the samaritan being an Israelite through faith, may not have the desire to keep the sabbaths, because she still has gentile qualities.

God said that the lost tribes of Israel had lost their identity. So how can a Benjamite, or a ephraim or Massaneh, who happens to live in USa, know they are a lost Isrealite? If it is a matter of knowing Gods voice as you said, then there is a problem. Because a non Israelite, e.g a samaritan who cannot trace their bloodline back to Jacob, can believe in Jesus Christ, such as the woman who begged christ to cast the devil out of her child.

My theory is that one who is blood related back to one of the 12 tribes, one of the ways to identify such a link is perhaps the desire to keep the sabbaths, since this command is something that the Israelites and no other tribe, has kept.

Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2011, 10:34:17 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 09:29:41 PM
How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   :bgdance:

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

I personally have always felt the holiness of both Saturday and Sunday.  Of course, I grew up with Sunday being considered his day.

Notice how two days are set aside every week.

But he is the Lord of the Sabbath.  So I reckon that every day is holy in him, for we who have entered into his Sabbath rest.


Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 10:52:20 PM
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

I don't know how you can ignore that statement.  It gnawed at me for years.  Or this one--how do you know you are a lost sheep?  Ans: You know his voice.

My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me.
--John 10:27

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.


Who are the sheep?

King James Bible
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

--Isa 53:6


Was that said to 'gentiles'? 

for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
--Isa 53:8


Halleluyah!  We know his voice!

You are saying that "we" are the lost sheep?

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 11:18:46 PM

Quote from: thinktank on September 10, 2011, 10:34:17 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 10, 2011, 09:29:41 PM
How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   :bgdance:

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

I personally have always felt the holiness of both Saturday and Sunday.  Of course, I grew up with Sunday being considered his day.

Notice how two days are set aside every week.

But he is the Lord of the Sabbath.  So I reckon that every day is holy in him, for we who have entered into his Sabbath rest.


Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus IS the Sabbath!

Amen!  Micah.

Quote from: MicahYou are saying that "we" are the lost sheep?

Yes.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me,

For I was lost but now I'm found,
was blind but now I see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFxArMeRDI

Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

It is just a witness by someone who understands.

We are to be a witness to the world of what we have seen, aren't we?

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
--Acts 1:8

So forget the song if it bothers you.  My answer to your question is, Yes.

Isaaih 49;6

   He said, 'IT IS TOO SMALL A THING FOR YOU TO BE MY SERVANT TO RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB,AND BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL

  I HAVE KEPT.[John 17;6 I have revealed you to those you gave me out of the world. THEY WERE YOURS;YOU GAVE THEM TO ME

I WILL ALSO MAKE YOU A LIGHT UNTO THE GENTILES THAT YOU MAY BRING MY SALVATION TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH


    BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED 'SEARCHED FOR' AND YOUR LAND SHALL BE MARRIED ISAH 62;12

    Ezekiel 34;11...I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them,

  so will I look aafter my sheep

Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2011, 12:04:24 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 10, 2011, 11:45:34 PM
Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

It is just a witness by someone who understands.

We are to be a witness to the world of what we have seen, aren't we?

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
--Acts 1:8

So forget the song if it bothers you.  My answer to your question is, Yes.

I am using YLT for  no reason but to use the verse...

(YLT)  but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be a martyr to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'

Rev 2:13  I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell--where the throne of the Adversary is --and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.


I find that curious, and have for some time. Then again it is just a word.

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 12:48:09 AM
Isaaih 49;6

   He said, 'IT IS TOO SMALL A THING FOR YOU TO BE MY SERVANT TO RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB,AND BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL

  I HAVE KEPT.[John 17;6 I have revealed you to those you gave me out of the world. THEY WERE YOURS;YOU GAVE THEM TO ME

I WILL ALSO MAKE YOU A LIGHT UNTO THE GENTILES THAT YOU MAY BRING MY SALVATION TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH


    BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED 'SEARCHED FOR' AND YOUR LAND SHALL BE MARRIED ISAH 62;12

    Ezekiel 34;11...I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them,

  so will I look aafter my sheep

:thumbsup:

"I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

Quote from: sheila on September 10, 2011, 09:19:14 PM
All dead in Adam..are lost sheep..all raised in Christ are Israel.

   intersting thing I came across yeasterday...the muslim/Arabss[those of Ishmael] see themselves as the nations that receive the Kingdom...

  when it was 'lost' by Israel.   God said Ishmael would  be the father of 12 rulers

Not saying much or all of it doesn't fit together somehow, but lest we wander too far away, I'd encourage us to remember the context of Jesus' statement, as I said before.  Notice how he responded to the woman, the context around it.  I think He was being much more specific right then, in that particular context, than "all who are lost".   :2c:

Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2011, 01:01:07 AM

"I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

I haven't looked.  Are we sure Jesus wasn't talking about His disciples right there?  Had the Gentiles (or much of anyone besides the Jews) had God revealed to them yet at that point?

Clarke's Commentary (not sure who Clarke is  :laughing7:).

The men which thou gavest me - That is, the apostles, who, having received this knowledge from Christ, were, by their preaching and writings, to spread it through the whole world.

Out of the world - From among the Jewish people; for in this sense is the word κοσμος to be understood in various parts of our Lord's last discourses.

Thine they were - Objects of thy choice; and thou gavest them to me from among this very unbelieving people, that they might be my disciples and the heralds of my salvation.

And they have kept thy word - Though their countrymen have rejected it; and they have received me as thy well beloved Son in whom thou delightest.

   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2011, 01:34:05 AM
Clarke's Commentary (not sure who Clarke is  :laughing7:).

The men which thou gavest me - That is, the apostles, who, having received this knowledge from Christ, were, by their preaching and writings, to spread it through the whole world.

Out of the world - From among the Jewish people; for in this sense is the word κοσμος to be understood in various parts of our Lord's last discourses.

Thine they were - Objects of thy choice; and thou gavest them to me from among this very unbelieving people, that they might be my disciples and the heralds of my salvation.

And they have kept thy word - Though their countrymen have rejected it; and they have received me as thy well beloved Son in whom thou delightest.

Yes, he is talking about his disciples in particular there but when he says--they were yours, and you gave them to me---meaning they are your elect.  Well, this will apply to all God's elect--given to Jesus such that--


they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may

know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

--John 17


You must agree that prayer is for all of us.


Notice who Peter is writing to--he is writing to 'strangers scattered' who are also the 'elect.'
'

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

to the strangers scattered [1Pet 1]






James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.



What twelve tribes?  Ten of those tribes were lost to history!   :happygrin:

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 01:56:00 AM
   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

and they will hear my voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
--John 10:16



He [the high priest] did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,

and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

--John 11:51, 52

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 01:56:00 AM
   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

Yep.  I see the caps. I already got your point.  To your statements too Mol;  I still am not sure He wasn't talking about 2 different groups of people, as He was so specific with the Gentile woman in context of that particular quote.  Just saying I'm not sure one quote leads directly to another, i.e., lumping them together and making one group automatically mean the other.

What I'm saying is, let's take the time to rightly divide, and not assume one group of lost sheep is all lost sheep and vice versa.  As I said, it all very well may fit together somehow, but it may not all be the same lump.   I.e., because all lost sheep are lost, I personally don't think He was talking about all lost sheep in that verse ("only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.  I could be wrong, but I'm not sure.  So I'm not ready to say that means we're automatically the lost tribes of Israel.  Maybe we are.  But maybe there are other connections, other issues than that too.  I don't know all that, just sayin' "it bears careful consideration".  :2c:

  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2011, 02:03:55 AM



These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

Are you saying there are no Gentiles?  There certainly seem to be scriptures that say otherwise.  And on what would one base that they/we all are in the group being talked about above?  Were the Egyptians for example, covenant people of God, so therefor strangers scattered?  I may be wrong, but I don't see it that way.  I see the chosen (Jews), the elect (those saved from all nations and tribes through Jesus) and those that won't even be given any "thought" of obtaining salvation until the next age. 

I believe I am "of Israel" because I was grafted in, given grace through Jesus - and I'm not to boast against the tree.  Maybe something further will be revealed to me some day. 

Peace.

I receive John 17 as speaking to me. :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2011, 03:29:52 AM

Quote from: Molly on September 11, 2011, 02:03:55 AM



These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

Are you saying there are no Gentiles?  There certainly seem to be scriptures that say otherwise.  And on what would one base that they/we all are in the group being talked about above?  Were the Egyptians for example, covenant people of God, so therefor strangers scattered?  I may be wrong, but I don't see it that way.  I see the chosen (Jews), the elect (those saved from all nations and tribes through Jesus) and those that won't even be given any "thought" of obtaining salvation until the next age. 

I believe I am "of Israel" because I was grafted in, given grace through Jesus - and I'm not to boast against the tree.  Maybe something further will be revealed to me some day. 

Peace.

You are a wild olive tree that was grafted into a cultivated olive tree.  What is the olive tree?  Israel--all twelve tribes.  What is the wild olive tree?  Those lost ten tribes who were scattered abroad, and who lost their God and became 'Gentiles.'

No I am not saying there are no 'gentiles.'  I am saying God's elect are from the 12 tribes of Israel, as they always were--God's chosen people included all 12 tribes.



17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
--Rom 11


How do you understand that you are a 'wild olive tree' grafted into a cultivated olive tree?   The House of Judah returned to the land and continued to be cultivated.

But, you, although an olive tree, were once far off and now brought near by the blood of Christ.

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 03:28:55 AM
  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

I agree.   :thumbsup:

I just believe God set things up in "stages".  Jews pre-cross (none, or very little gentiles).  Then Jews (mostly) set aside for awhile ["even to this day a veil remains"], and Gentiles being brought in ("of Israel", due to grace.  Not the tree, but branches).  Then when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then Israel will be dealt with again, and will be brought in.  Then the rest of the nations.  Each man in his own order.

Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2011, 03:58:18 AM

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 03:28:55 AM
  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

I agree.   :thumbsup:

I just believe God set things up in "stages".  Jews pre-cross (none, or very little gentiles).  Then Jews (mostly) set aside for awhile ["even to this day a veil remains"], and Gentiles being brought in ("of Israel", due to grace.  Not the tree, but branches).  Then when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then Israel will be dealt with again, and will be brought in.  Then the rest of the nations.  Each man in his own order.

Ha!  'the fulness of the gentiles'!  What does that mean?  What is that?  Do you think the Torah scholar Paul pulled that phrase out of his hat?

Genesis 48

17And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


This is the blessing:  The seed of Ephraim shall become a multitude of nations.

Shall become what?



"a multitude"

H4393
מלו    מלוא    מלא
melô'  melô'  melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): -  X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.



"of nations"

H1471
גּי    גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.



Read that again--Ephraim's seed will become the fulness of the Gentiles!

Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.




Romans 4:16-18
King James Version (KJV)


16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.




9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

--Rev 7

Well, I would say the amswer to the original question is "A LOT".

chb

Quote from: CHB on September 11, 2011, 05:04:49 AM
Well, I would say the amswer to the original question is "A LOT".

chb

Agreed.   :bigGrin:

My actual original question had to do with the afterlife.  I still think many are going to be surprised, many (ETer believers) pleasantly so.  Not saying being purged would be fun, but a whole lot better than roasting for billions of years.  :)

If that the case then I will re apply my original reply. :HeartThrob:

Just me personally, the brother who heard what he says, probably heard it... in his "heart" that emotional part of feelings[cant explain that,] there was I "think" a great and close bond. I do not disbelieve he heard what he says he heard, I just suggest that is what he felt that his brother would have said if it were to be possible to know.
This may sound abrasive, I dont mean to be that way, but I feel its all in how you have been raised or chose to understand someone close dying.

It is a good question to ponder. Thanks :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on September 11, 2011, 05:11:49 AM
My actual original question had to do with the afterlife.  I still think many are going to be surprised, many (ETer believers) pleasantly so.  Not saying being purged would be fun, but a whole lot better than roasting for billions of years.  :)

I believe your father saw wonderful things, as reported by those who heard him speak of them.  I have seen and heard about this more than once happening among the dying.  I think that we might 'know' more than we are willing to admit--but what a delight to see it with our own eyes.

We, man, always sees wonderful things. I am not making small what man sees, but it is what our(mans) mind imagines and what it wants to see, that brings forth a lot of want we(man) desire to see and tell.

We, all of us are human, and good humans who love the Lord want to see and give loved ones good thoughts, positive thoughts. Hope is what we all have and that hope is bound in faith.

I suppose I am cold and abrasive, I do not mean to be. As a commercial has said and it is very true, "the mind is a terrible thing to waste." The human mind is very creative, but what it creates is not always reality.

I hope and believe he was seeing beyond.  I just think we really understand very little about what's "over there".

(A quick aside - Amazing Grace, powerful song. I believe it's what much of Romans is about, and Paul's message to us after the cross.  Saved by grace not works.  It's the message of the cross.  I believe it's what us being grafted in is based on.  If there's more discussion on this, I'll split it into a new thread.   :thumbsup:)

A father's words to a son, be that father good or not good are words that stay with the son for the sons life.
James I say be greatfull, and I know you are, that your dad had good eyes and good words to leave a good son.

Thanks brother, very nice of you.   :HeartThrob:

Hi Jabcat,

What if God allows us to see a little of whats ahead, maybe that was a little of what the Transfiguration was all about? Not that we are actually there. God allowed Peter and the rest to see what was in the future, also your dad saw what may be ahead of us all. 

Just a thought I had

CHB

Again, I guess it's on a need to know basis.  If you don't need to know, you won't.

 Jabcat,as a nurse I've been at the bedside of many people dying. Don't let 'doubt' take away the edification and comfort you  received by

  that which you wittnessed.

   I have a long time friend...who is being blown about by every wind of doctrine.  Her ex tells her she's not 'saved' also her daughter, the 'catholic' side

   of the family also...and especiall a 'assembly type' church freind,who 'tells her she must wear a dress'   She 'died' in hospital and was revived...

   and "Jesus' spoke to her and told her...the next time I come toI you will be to take you with me.

     She called me..and is still troubled,because....the ex the daughter the fried the sister and the brother..still say 'she's not saved'[coz

  she don't go to their church[which is the right one]

    I told Donna, who are you going to beleive? HIM or them?  What else will it take for you to beleive Him? DID HE tell you be sure and wear a dress,or

   I can't take you with me? Don't you think that He would have been sure to tell you that,if it was an issue?

   At our time...when Christ is being revealed...the spirit may reveal something that doesn't quite fit into previous 'doctrines'...just as Peter expierenced

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

--Heb 2

The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

 

Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2011, 09:20:55 PM
The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2011, 09:20:55 PM
The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

Yeah, what you just said.   :bigGrin:

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2011, 09:06:19 PM
Jabcat,as a nurse I've been at the bedside of many people dying. Don't let 'doubt' take away the edification and comfort you  received by

  that which you wittnessed.

   I have a long time friend...who is being blown about by every wind of doctrine.  Her ex tells her she's not 'saved' also her daughter, the 'catholic' side

   of the family also...and especiall a 'assembly type' church freind,who 'tells her she must wear a dress'   She 'died' in hospital and was revived...

   and "Jesus' spoke to her and told her...the next time I come toI you will be to take you with me.

     She called me..and is still troubled,because....the ex the daughter the fried the sister and the brother..still say 'she's not saved'[coz

  she don't go to their church[which is the right one]

    I told Donna, who are you going to beleive? HIM or them?  What else will it take for you to beleive Him? DID HE tell you be sure and wear a dress,or

   I can't take you with me? Don't you think that He would have been sure to tell you that,if it was an issue?

   At our time...when Christ is being revealed...the spirit may reveal something that doesn't quite fit into previous 'doctrines'...just as Peter expierenced

Amen.  This is a beautiful story filled with much truth.  I have been witness to the truly awesome grace and mercy of God.  I have have seen his hand work among the "least of these" that leaves no doubt in my mind about his nature and goodness.  Yet, there are times when an interaction, something someone says, or my own carnality and limited view plant a seed of doubt.  This doubt can grow roots if watered.  It goes back to the original thought...who are we going to believe?

"...who are we going to believe?"

I just had that experience last night.  Someone was posting on another forum, their "the OT isn't accurate/true, because Jesus said 'you have heard it said' but I say...."

For a few moments I felt that doubt enter in.  I'd been there before, and as I've shared in the past, was swiftly and decidedly corrected by the Holy Spirit.  But then I was quickly spoken to, reminded to believe and trust His [written] Word [the lamp unto our feet]. I may not always understand it all, but He Is Who He says He Is.

Then He gave me to realize, that what He meant by  "but I say", was that He was taking it to a deeper level.  Not that the Law/Torah wasn't true, or was corrupted as claimed, but that Jesus made it a matter of the heart [and attitude] rather than just a behavior/activity/external sacrifice.  The "sacrifice" now is not just "performing a service/requirement" - it's the obedience of daily giving our hearts and beings to Him, and letting Him do it through us in the Living Word and Spirit in us - as we "walk humbly before our God". 

The thing about back them was that they heard the word of God rather than read it.

So only the pharisees would read out the law and probably gave their own spin on those laws.

That's a good point Tank.  Not sure I'd quite thought of it that way. 

My mother-in-law is dying of cancer.  She may have less than a week left.  She has been a strong believer for many years after believing on Jesus for salvation.  She has recently seen colors, lights, and mentioned seeing flames.  I'm one that says that a God Who is Spirit doesn't need literal flames of fire to accomplish His SPIRITUAL purposes.  But her "flames" statement has caught my attention.  I've been doing some searching and reading - interestingly, there's not much info of dying people seeing flames;  however, most of us know about some of the "hell" near death experiences.

Thoughts on what she's seen, and then thoughts on the following from a NDE I read?


"As I stood there I began to sense that this wasn't just a physical darkness but that there was something else there. I could feel a cold eerie feeling as though something or someone was looking at me - a spiritual darkness. From the darkness I began to hear men's voices screaming at me telling me to "shut up" - "that I deserved to be there" - "that I was in Hell". I couldn't believe it, but as I stood there a radiant beam of light shone through the darkness and immediately began to lift me upward. I found myself being translated up into an incredibly brilliant beam of pure white light - it seemed to be emanating from a circular opening far above me (I felt like a speck of dust being drawn up into a beam of sunlight).

The Journey
I entered this opening to find myself inside a long narrow passageway or tunnel - at the far end of the tunnel I could see the source of the light - it was so radiant that it looked to be the centre of the universe. As I continued to look towards this light it seemed to draw me towards it at an incredible speed - I wasn't walking but was being translated along this tunnel towards the source of this light. I watched as a wave of light broke off the source and moved up the tunnel towards me - as it passed through me I could feel a wave of warmth and comfort flood my soul ... it was incredible. This light wasn't just physical, but was giving off a living emotion ... Halfway down another wave of light - this time it gave off pure peace - followed by another wave - of pure joy. Coming out of the end of this tunnel I found myself standing in the presence of awesome light and power - it seemed as though even the constellations in the universe must find their energy source from this focal point.

As I stood there I wondered to myself if this was just an energy source in the universe or if perhaps there could be someone standing in the midst of this light!!!!! A voice immediately responded to my thought and asked me "Ian, do you wish to return?" Return, I thought!!! Where am I??? As I looked over my shoulder I could see the tunnel going back into darkness.

The Light
I thought - darkness - hospital bed - am I out of my body? - is this real? - am I standing here? - or am I in a coma having some bizarre dream? Am I in my body or out of my body?? (I could cognitively think of the two alternatives.) As I looked back towards the light, it was still there ... I responded "I don't know where I am, but if I am out of my physical body I wish to return." The voice responded "If you wish to return - you must see in a new light." "New light", I thought, "I'm seeing the light." "Are you the true light???" Words appeared in front of me "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5)." I had never read a Bible before in my life so I didn't know this was straight out of the scriptures. God is light, I thought - that is pure light - I see no darkness here, I have just come from darkness - I see no evil, no shadows - this is pure light - am I standing in the presence of God??? He knows my name and I didn't tell Him, only God could do that - He knows what I am thinking before I even speak, only God could do that. Then he must be able to see everything I have done wrong in my life ... no ... I don't want God to see that. I felt totally exposed and wanted to move away from the light and go back into the darkness where I belonged. I thought someone had made a mistake and brought the wrong person up. As I drew back towards the darkness a wave of light swept through me ... I felt pure unadulterated Love flow over me. Love I thought, how could God love me - I've taken his name in vain - I've slept around - I'm not a good man ... but no matter what I said, waves of His unconditional Love continued to flow over me. I found myself weeping uncontrollably in His Presence. It was so amazing that He had totally forgiven me and accepted me as I was.

The waves of Love ceased and I wondered if I could possibly step into the light and see what God looked like. I was so close. ... I asked if I could step in. ..???.. I heard no response but thought if God could love me so much, He wouldn't mind .... As I stepped into the light I found myself disappear into it as it was so radiant - it had the intensity of laser light, yet you could look directly at it. The light seemed to absorb me into it - the centre seemed to be very bright so I aimed for it - I could feel a healing presence coming off this light that was healing my broken heart ... it was touching me deep inside my heart of hearts where no one gets to see ... so beautiful.

God
Suddenly it opened up in the centre and standing in front of me was the most awesome sight - I could see a man standing in front of me, but he was not like anyone I'd ever seen before in my life. His garments were shimmering white in color - garments of light - I could see His bare feet and His hands were outstretched towards me as if to welcome me. I knew I was looking upon God ... as I looked toward His face the intensity of the light seemed to increase 7-fold - you couldn't make out the form of his face as the light was so bright - such purity, such holiness, such beauty. I asked God if I could step closer. I felt I could, I wanted to see His face. Moving closer waves of more Love began to flow towards me, and I felt very safe. Standing, now feet away, from the Lord I tried to see His face - but I didn't know that no man can see the face of God and live. And so, as I moved my face into the radiance that surrounded His face, He moved - and all His Glory moved with Him. Directly behind Him it opened out into a brand new World - green pastures, a crystal clear stream, rolling green hills to my right, mountains in the distance, blue skies above, to my left fields interspersed with trees and flowers. As I looked at the grass in front of me I could see the same light that was on the presence of God was radiating throughout this entire creation - totally untouched by man - perfect creation. And in my heart I knew I belonged here, that God had created me to live here - I knew I was home.

Return?
I was just about to enter in and explore, when God stepped back in front of me, and asked me this question. "Now that you have seen - do you wish to step in or do you wish to return?" I thought, "I don't want to return. I wish to step in. I have no one to go back for and no one has ever loved me, all they've ever done is manipulate me and try to control me ... I have no one to go back for, I wish to step in." But God didn't move, so I looked back behind me to say "goodbye, cruel world", and standing behind me in a vision in front of the tunnel was my mother. And as soon as I saw her I knew that there was one person in my life that had shown me love, and that was my mother, and that she had prayed for me every day and tried to show me that this was the way. In my mind I thought, "if I am dead and I did choose to step into heaven, what would my mother think? Would she know I made it or would she think I went to Hell - because she knew I had no Faith? ... I realized that it could break her heart and that she would have no reason to believe that God had heard my prayer in the ambulance and forgiven my sins. ... I thought, "how can I do that to my mum, it would be so selfish" ... and decided I wished to return."



http://bibleprobe.com/iansNDE.htm

I love Ian Mccormick's testimony.

It's best in audio.

I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

Ian's movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqhGRD25h2A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqhGRD25h2A)
Interviews with Ian and other stuff: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ian+mccormack&aq=0&oq=ian+mcco (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ian+mccormack&aq=0&oq=ian+mcco)

eaglesway comment..Holy spirit....I leave the specks of dust,for those with a log in their eye to stumble over"....and this.......

     I FELT LIKE A SPECK OF DUST BEING DRAWN UP IN A BEAM'log'? OF LIGHT.......


     there is a beam[tree] of LIGHT[spiritual tree] in the spirit that blinds us to physical sight........'I judge no man.

       AND THERE IS A  LOG[spiritual ]tree] that cause such to stumble[ye judge after the flesh]

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

There is no doubt in my mind that Ian is telling the truth.  Don't ask me why.  Maybe it's because it's similar enough to experiences I have had.  Maybe it's because I recognize God's MO.  [The voice told me to pray.  I didn't know how to pray.  Suddenly I saw the words of the Lord's prayer in front of my eyes.---wasn't that from Ian's story?  lol...if not, it's typical]  It's a long time since I heard it, but it had me jumping out of my seat.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

Nope.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 07:20:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

Nope.

Not to argue but why not? What are your personal criteria to accept or reject an NDE?

"I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly." (John 10:10)

"abundantly"

G4053
περισσός
"perissos
"per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).


What is superabundant life beyond measure--the life that we are freely given by Christ Jesus?


...my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. [Psa 23]

 I am thinking about the scripture where God states....in the last days I will pour out my spirit on ALL flesh.............and I am thinking of the spirit

  interceding for those that groan..with words unuttered.

All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose....


6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life PAST


TODAY, if you hear His voice


: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. [/color]FUTURE   [Psa 23]

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 22, 2011, 08:13:13 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 07:20:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

Nope.

Not to argue but why not? What are your personal criteria to accept or reject an NDE?

Do NDE's write books? Are they guests on TV? Do they make money off telling their stories? The "imaginations" of the mind of man woven with fiction and Hollywood and to make money.....I just don't buy it, perhaps He has not revealed it to me.

Goodness and mercy are pursuing me, hunting me down, chasing after me, and that's not my imagination.  I can't escape it, out run it, or hide from it.



Surely goodness and mercy
"shall follow" [me]
H7291
רדף
râdaph
raw-daf'
A primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent; figuratively (of time) gone by): - chase, put to flight, follow (after, on), hunt, (be under) persecute (-ion, -or), pursue (-r).

Quote from: Molly on September 23, 2011, 03:08:04 AM
Goodness and mercy are pursuing me, hunting me down, chasing after me, and that's not my imagination.  I can't escape it, out run it, or hide from it.



Surely goodness and mercy
"shall follow" [me]
H7291
רדף
râdaph
raw-daf'
A primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent; figuratively (of time) gone by): - chase, put to flight, follow (after, on), hunt, (be under) persecute (-ion, -or), pursue (-r).

I believe you. :HeartThrob:

Seriously, how much DON'T we know yet??

How do we know that the Bible is even real and true about what it says on UR and the Victorious Gospel? It's a 2000 year old text and these NDE's about heaven and hell seem real and recent...

Quote from: PaoloNuevo on September 23, 2011, 04:02:55 AM
Seriously, how much DON'T we know yet??

How do we know that the Bible is even real and true about what it says on UR and the Victorious Gospel? It's a 2000 year old text and these NDE's about heaven and hell seem real and recent...

My friend does the word FAITH come to mind?
Have you ever considered that man's imaginations have created "a heaven" and "a hell," in their minds through what man has imagined (by whatever means) what "a heaven" and "a hell" is?
The Book "23 minutes in Hell," tells us what "hell" is like. Can you find ANYWHERE in the Bible where what Bill Wiese describes about "hell," in the Bible? If so please tell me what.
Or can you find evidence of his offering in movies and books?
What does the Bible say or tell about "heaven," as to what a NDE person describes?
Or what they describe as heaven" or does it show what man has imagined what "heaven," is all about?
Or are they describing what movies and books have offered as to what "heaven" is?

Quote from: PaoloNuevo on September 23, 2011, 04:02:55 AM
How do we know that the Bible is even real and true about what it says on UR and the Victorious Gospel? It's a 2000 year old text and these NDE's about heaven and hell seem real and recent...

:mshock:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 04:18:15 AM

My friend does the word FAITH come to mind?
Have you ever considered that man's imaginations have created "a heaven" and "a hell," in their minds through what man has imagined (by whatever means) what "a heaven" and "a hell" is?
The Book "23 minutes in Hell," tells us what "hell" is like. Can you find ANYWHERE in the Bible where what Bill Wiese describes about "hell," in the Bible? If so please tell me what.
Or can you find evidence of his offering in movies and books?
What does the Bible say or tell about "heaven," as to what a NDE person describes?
Or what they describe as heaven" or does it show what man has imagined what "heaven," is all about?
Or are they describing what movies and books have offered as to what "heaven" is?

:first:

Thank you my friend :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2011, 04:52:13 AM

Quote from: PaoloNuevo on September 23, 2011, 04:02:55 AM
How do we know that the Bible is even real and true about what it says on UR and the Victorious Gospel? It's a 2000 year old text and these NDE's about heaven and hell seem real and recent...

:mshock:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 04:18:15 AM

My friend does the word FAITH come to mind?
Have you ever considered that man's imaginations have created "a heaven" and "a hell," in their minds through what man has imagined (by whatever means) what "a heaven" and "a hell" is?
The Book "23 minutes in Hell," tells us what "hell" is like. Can you find ANYWHERE in the Bible where what Bill Wiese describes about "hell," in the Bible? If so please tell me what.
Or can you find evidence of his offering in movies and books?
What does the Bible say or tell about "heaven," as to what a NDE person describes?
Or what they describe as heaven" or does it show what man has imagined what "heaven," is all about?
Or are they describing what movies and books have offered as to what "heaven" is?

:first:

:thumbsup: :cloud9: :cloud9:

You're welcome.   :bigGrin: 

I'm personally not saying absolutely none of the NDEs are true.  What I'm saying is, I think it pays to be careful, perceptive, AND test all things against the scriptures as best we can understand with the Holy Spirit's revelation.  We see through a glass darkly, even understanding God's workings and His Words, but to say I'd trust someone's esoteric experience over the scriptures is, IMO, a pretty slippery slope.

I was wondering just a day or two ago about these NDEs - what scriptural evidence there is for them.  [I know Bro. Micah you lean more toward the interpretation of the "dead know nothing" to mean "nothing in any realm".  I understand that, many believe it that way, and I can see some of the reasons for thinking so.]  But sort of even setting that aside for a moment.  Even if one believed there is consciousness in another, spiritual realm (that "the dead know nothing scrip" has more to do with the earthly realm] - and so believe that at least some NDEs are real;  IMO, there still wouldn't be anything there that would directly contradict the scriptures.  I.e., [extreme example] say a Muslim met Muhammad in a NDE and reports back that he is truly God's only begotten son and told him just to be filled with love and say 3 prayers a day;  I'd have to conclude that's a false NDE, because it directly contradicts the scriptures.  You get the point.

I thought of Paul's experience "in the third heaven", but I don't believe he was having a NDE.  Other than that, I'm just not sure there's any Biblical evidence of these.  Anyone got anything on this?

P.S.  My mother-in-law is passing from cancer.  Her doctor is a very special woman.  She visited my in-laws' home today, and told my wife that after her aunt died, God gave her a vision of her.  She said her aunt was laying in a green field, covered with lavender.  She said lavender is her favorite, and with her senses, she could smell it.  She said God showed her that her aunt was OK, and said "your mom will be too".   :HeartThrob:

Not to be cold or indifferent, but one of man's emotions is sympathy and the pain of losing a loved one and how we comfort the ones left behind. Also the one passing has their emotions which I am sure are pleasant and resting on how the have understood this moment in their life. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2011, 05:41:47 AM
P.S.  My mother-in-law is passing from cancer.  Her doctor is a very special woman.  She visited my in-laws' home today, and told my wife that after her aunt died, God gave her a vision of her.  She said her aunt was laying in a green field, covered with lavender.  She said lavender is her favorite, and with her senses, she could smell it.  She said God showed her that her aunt was OK, and said "your mom will be too".   :HeartThrob:

:thumbsup:

Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

--Mat 5:4

How much do we not know?  

1Co 13:9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;


1Co 13:12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

You know!  :thumbsup:
Paul

Yes!

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 02:21:48 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 22, 2011, 08:13:13 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 22, 2011, 07:20:54 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2011, 08:30:23 AM
I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?

Nope.

Not to argue but why not? What are your personal criteria to accept or reject an NDE?

Do NDE's write books? Are they guests on TV? Do they make money off telling their stories? The "imaginations" of the mind of man woven with fiction and Hollywood and to make money.....I just don't buy it, perhaps He has not revealed it to me.

The Apostles wrote books also. When, for example, Daniel had a vision (which isn't very diffrenet from an NDE) what proof did he have? Why was Daniel's vision trusted and the vision of the guy downtown rejected?
Personal thought. If all those people in the OT had truthfull visions why can't people living right now have visions? Personally I think it's 100% Biblically correct to accept that people can have truthful NDEs/visions/etc. Using the same criteria it's sure many visions are false or completly made up for monetairy gain.
Surely the most safe thing to do is reject everything that can't be completely supported by verses. That includes everything from a full scale vision to "I have a feeling that".
But again back to Daniel. One of teh great of the OT. Why was he trusted? He did mainly long range prophesies nobody could check at that time. Why was he trusted?
:dontknow:

I believe Daniel was a faithful servant to the Lord. He had faith, God had given him a purpose, He would use him.

NDE's are regular folk who may or may not believe in God. NDE's who are human beings who lived their natural life with books, movies, TV, stories, and their imaginations.

I contend there is a great deal of difference.

I'm not saying Daniel had no faith etc. My point is how did his neighbors knew?
There is no difference between Daniel and Bill Wiese. Both are normal looking men. Both claim to be honest. Both claim to believe. Etc etc.
But still "everyone" says Daniel can be trusted for a full 100%. Not so for Bill Wiesse.

QuoteI contend there is a great deal of difference.

I'm not saying that's wrong but how do you "measure" that? Color of his eyes? Shoe size? Or....???
Remember that Jesus was rejected by many people in His time. No idea about the exact numbers but Jesus was rejected by 75% of the people. Bill Wiesse is rejected by 75% of the people.
No I'm not saying Bill equals Jesus I'm just saying people always have an opinion about everyone but very often they are wrong. 75% was wrong about Jesus. Very likely 75% was wrong about Daniel. 100% minus 7 people where wrong about Noach.
Well you get the point.
I hope  :laughing7:

Is there anything in the Bible that says anything of what Weise said about hell? I mean Daniel was given a vision and that vision became so. I don't see any comparison at all. :laughing7:

QuoteDaniel was given a vision and that vision became so

That's the whole point Micah... It became so centuries later. But Daniel was believed before those centuries ended. Daniel was right all along but the proof of that was centuries later.

QuoteI don't see any comparison at all

I hope you see now because the comparision is extremely correct imo.  :laughing7:

The things about most prophets is that they do say things that are NOT in the Bible. Nothing Daniel said was in the Bible. It was added after he said it....
A prophet that repeats things that are already known is no prophet.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 23, 2011, 10:04:33 AM

QuoteDaniel was given a vision and that vision became so

That's the whole point Micah... It became so centuries later. But Daniel was believed before those centuries ended. Daniel was right all along but the proof of that was centuries later.

QuoteI don't see any comparison at all

I hope you see now because the comparision is extremely correct imo.  :laughing7:

Daniel was in the will of God and God gave him the visions. There is no comparison at all.

People, regular people who have not been living by faith and believing in Jehovah; but have lived with what men have conjured up to entertain and paint the imaginations in man and his thinking and reasoning. God gave a man(Daniel) of God a vision for all, yes in the future. From what I have read, heard, and seen about NDE's is they offer only what we, man has invisioned or imagined about the things they report.
WW I just dont accept the NDE, so I am disqualifing myself.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 23, 2011, 09:40:10 AM
I'm not saying Daniel had no faith etc. My point is how did his neighbors knew?
There is no difference between Daniel and Bill Wiese. Both are normal looking men. Both claim to be honest. Both claim to believe. Etc etc.
But still "everyone" says Daniel can be trusted for a full 100%. Not so for Bill Wiesse.

QuoteI contend there is a great deal of difference.

I'm not saying that's wrong but how do you "measure" that? Color of his eyes? Shoe size? Or....???
Remember that Jesus was rejected by many people in His time. No idea about the exact numbers but Jesus was rejected by 75% of the people. Bill Wiesse is rejected by 75% of the people.
No I'm not saying Bill equals Jesus I'm just saying people always have an opinion about everyone but very often they are wrong. 75% was wrong about Jesus. Very likely 75% was wrong about Daniel. 100% minus 7 people where wrong about Noach.
Well you get the point.
I hope  :laughing7:

just some observations, feel free to disagree...

Daniel had already established himself as trustworthy, via dream interpretations that proved correct. In addition, lifestyle.

As I consider the OT prophets, and even those who preached and taught and wrote the NT via their letters, there is, if we are honest, a HUGE difference between them and us.

That difference is, from my pov, total and absolute near fanaticism for God. They were truly set apart, truly different, they ate slept breathed God 24/7.

In comparison, again if we are truly honest. extremely few of us do that. We are raising kids, working jobs, watching the news, posting on forums, watching youtube videos, and when we remember to do so, we pray and read the Bible almost as an afterthought.

They buried themselves in God, the scriptures, in prayer and fellowship and service. And they did so not in a negative fanatic way, but with love. It wasn't legalistic the way they did this, it wasn't puffed up like the Pharisees and such. Their hunger for God was so intense that nothing less than full communion with Him would satisfy. And I believe God honored that.

We in our day are truly spoiled more than we know. We think we are persecuted if someone disagrees with our pov on a scripture verse, or dares to oppose having the ten commandments posted in a court house, or have an atheist ridicule us.

This isn't to say we don't love God, or that we aren't believers. But the cares of this world have truly entwined in our lives like thorny vines, and choke off the flow of the Holy Spirit.  We expect God to meet us where WE choose, at OUR convenience, don't interfere with our plans for the day, and then are frustrated when we don't experience that fullness the OT prophets and NT apostles did.

A lifetime of full commitment done in love not out of pride or arrogance is a major requirement, I think, towards reaching that level of fullness in God. It is a height I would love to reach but like everyone else, I, too, struggle with the demands of raising kids and working. Doesn't mean God won't share a taste of that with us, but it does mean that we have to be honest and extra careful in testing what comes to be sure it lines up with scripture and is not born of our own thoughts that have not been anywhere near as disciplined as those of old.

just my thoughts on it.

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 23, 2011, 10:13:34 AMDaniel was in the will of God and God gave him the visions. There is no comparison at all.

Is it really so hard to understand? :sigh:
Being in the will of God is an irrelvant argument. You can't see that from the outside. Have you ever seen an NDE that started with saying "the following is just a lie". All NDEs (I've read) are from people who claim to be honest. Many say that God/Jesus commanded them to tell people about their experience. I would say such people are "in the will of God".

QuoteGod gave a man(Daniel) of God a vision for all, yes in the future. From what I have read, heard, and seen about NDE's is they offer only what we, man has invisioned or imagined about the things they report.

Many NDEs don't contradict the Bible. New teachings are not false or true by defenition. If they contradict the Bible they are clearly false. Those that don't contradict or are 100% in agreement with the Bible are not always true.

QuoteWW I just dont accept the NDE, so I am disqualifing myself.

I don't say you have to. It's just a hypothetical question. But I have my answer. You don't have a clue on what basis to accept or reject. That's fine with me. I think that's so for most/all people including myself.
That's also the reason you see me often questioning those "It's all spiritual" posts without a single verse to back it up.
For me such views are at the same level as NDEs. Unverified. Therefore could be right or could be nothing but a fantasy.
:bgdance:

 we all know there are false prophets and lying visions.   We have to test these spirits if they are of God? I test them if they are in accord with

  God's nature,love,justice,righteousness,mercy,compassion and power. Restoration...was the vision in line with God's express will of restoring?

  of  the casting down of satan? of the free gift? of the eternal kingdom? the salvation of man?

   Ezekiel 14...when any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a 'wicked stumbling block" before his face..and then goes to a prophet. I myself will answer

  him in keeping with his great folly. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel,who have all deserted me for their idols...

   Ezekiel 13   False prophets condemned........'Your prophets,O'Israel are like jackals mong ruins. YOU have not gone up to the breaks in the wall

  to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.


   Relationship and spirit....but look!   Balaam.... managed to even speaktruth according to the will of God..when it came to the deliverance of Israel

  into the promises.However seeing this...he counseled the adversary how to make them fall through disfavour.


    I received the kn!owledge of the salvation of all through a dream vision....when I was mourning over the coming judgement upon the entire world!

   Having seen the entire inhabited earth overcome of the prince of this world....I had  gone in prayer to God and petitioned for all their lives and mercy....

   an earthquake happened.    Then two angels were sent to me in the night...and comforted me in my mourning.   they said",man is not responsible

  for sin"...later I found the scripture...'for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by Him who subjected it,in order to set

  the whole creation free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God" and that God had taken the condemnation of the law against us and nailed it

  to the cross, in Jesus Christ...and was not holding sin against men...and they were to receive the free gift of eternal life.

     THIS MUCH I KNOW IN THE SPIRIT

   and I find myself at odds at times,with those who preach the divine  plan of the ages...and the LOF to man for a while....and I have received nothing from

   Him on that in the spirit


   

   

Quote from: sheila on September 23, 2011, 03:10:21 PMwe all know there are false prophets and lying visions.

Sure. The true prophets are vastly outnumbered.

QuoteWe have to test these spirits if they are of God?

I fully agree with that. And the only way to test that is with Scripture imo.
I could for example verifiy your views against those of Cardinal. Both of you are honest spiritally inclined ladies. I have zero doubt about that. But you are not at Holy Spirit level as the Bible is. Most on this forum live 10000+ miles away from me. Basicly you+ are just words and smilies on a forum.
Same goes for anything I ever wrote ofcourse.

QuoteI test them if they are in accord with God's nature,love,justice,righteousness,mercy,compassion and power.

Fully agreed but there the problems begin. Views on that compassion vary widely between ETs and URs. Even between the people on this forum. To a much lesser extend of course.

QuoteRestoration...was the vision in line with God's express will of restoring?

Again agreed. Partly. Although I keep nagging about Scriptures I have thought that complicates things. I tried to explain it to Micah but it seem not to come across very well.
Over time God has selected a number of people who spoke for Him. They often thaught new things. A good example is the Book of Leviticus many new laws that were not written down before. So that was a prophet that said things that couldn't be verified (at that time)
Now assume you are the next great prophetess of God. Just like Leviticus you speak 100% true but unverifyable things.
But how should I know you are a prophetess of light or darkness? Assuming nothing you say contradicts the Bible. It just adds to the Scripture like happend over the previous millenia.

QuoteI received the kn!owledge of the salvation of all through a dream vision....

On this forum that will earn you a lotta hugs because people trust you. On an ET forum you will be banned for blasphemy.... That's my whole point
:boyheart:

 :thumbsup:     but all any can do is testify..whether beleived,rejected or contemplated......eventually it will show up as straw,wood,stubble

  gold,silver.   I never say..waiting on the Lord does not have it's reward.  There is nothing wrong with saying, "I DON'T KNOW" :dontknow: there will

   come a day...when no longer will any say,'know God" for all will know Him..when I forgive all their sin"   All your children shall be taught

   of the Lord...... :bgdance:

     I love the scriptures too.... a prophesy about the coming famine [Acts 11;28] Agabus stood up and through the spirit predicted a severe

  famine would spread over thee entire Roman world[this happened during the reign of Claudius]this was testified in the sign givenof Christ for

  the conclusion of the law covenant age.  And know we are at the end of the times of Gentiles age. time of return..and harvest of the earth

.and the beginning of all in All/immortality age...and the sign applies again.   Time[law covenant],times[gentiles] half a time[hour of trial preceded by silence in heaven

  for a half hour]    the signs of the times are upon us..

Sheila, what is the silence in heaven all about?  If you know...


ww, I'm thinking our Bible is complete with respect to the ages covered by it.

But we will see something new revealed as the next age begins.

Maybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?

 the silence  was in Heaven...and a period of no angelic spiritual messages declared to the people. This preceded the 7 angelic trumpet blasts....it correlates

  with the time Noah and all with him shut the door of the ark.   A day for a year=approx  one week for Noah in ark before rain began...= @half hour

  in a day....just like the days of Noah Genesis 7;10

Molly I gave my view in post #7 but reading post #22 is was only understood half.

My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.

QuoteMaybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?

See my last reply to Sheila.
People who reject NDEs must also reject the majority of the "it's spiritual" post on this forum as lies from the devil....
If NDEs are lies of the devil. Due to drugs abuse. Just a way to make money etc the conclusion is simple. It's all fake.
As far as I'm concerned that's not limited to full blown NDEs but also "HS thaught me" type of stuff.

NDEs come in various "formats".
a] Feeling of happiness and warmth. Nothing more.
b] A voice tells the person something.
c] Full blown NDE in which people see and hear things.

Besides the "dead component" b and c it's how God seems to communicate with His phropets.
Voice from a burning bush. 7 fat and 7 thin cows. And a massive vision called Revelation.

Jews have grouped their OT books in section. The relevant ones are Major and Minor Prophets.
Does it anywhere in the NT say that the times of God's interaction with people is over?
What if the NDE people are, let's call them, Tiny Prophets?
Would that be an unbiblical thought?
I even posted medical proof of NDEs.

If one accepts the visions in the Bible then that for me automatically means NDEs can't be ruled out.

The Bible tells us about true and false prophets/religions/ways/etc.
That can be easily extrapolated to:
- True/false NDEs.
- True/false "HS told me".
- True/false "It's spiritual".

Believing in NDEs is the "easy" step. The real challange is diffrenciating the wheat from the chaff.
Every view that contradics (or requires to ignore) verses is chaff.
NDEs that align with Scripture can be true. It wouldn't be that hard for me to give you a Biblically sound and detailed description of the vision I never had....
NDEs that don't contradict Scripture but can't be really verified either.

So NDEs come in two categories. Proven false and possibly true.

Quote from: Lindy on September 23, 2011, 10:21:36 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 23, 2011, 09:40:10 AM
I'm not saying Daniel had no faith etc. My point is how did his neighbors knew?
There is no difference between Daniel and Bill Wiese. Both are normal looking men. Both claim to be honest. Both claim to believe. Etc etc.
But still "everyone" says Daniel can be trusted for a full 100%. Not so for Bill Wiesse.

QuoteI contend there is a great deal of difference.

I'm not saying that's wrong but how do you "measure" that? Color of his eyes? Shoe size? Or....???
Remember that Jesus was rejected by many people in His time. No idea about the exact numbers but Jesus was rejected by 75% of the people. Bill Wiesse is rejected by 75% of the people.
No I'm not saying Bill equals Jesus I'm just saying people always have an opinion about everyone but very often they are wrong. 75% was wrong about Jesus. Very likely 75% was wrong about Daniel. 100% minus 7 people where wrong about Noach.
Well you get the point.
I hope  :laughing7:

just some observations, feel free to disagree...

Daniel had already established himself as trustworthy, via dream interpretations that proved correct. In addition, lifestyle.

As I consider the OT prophets, and even those who preached and taught and wrote the NT via their letters, there is, if we are honest, a HUGE difference between them and us.

That difference is, from my pov, total and absolute near fanaticism for God. They were truly set apart, truly different, they ate slept breathed God 24/7.

In comparison, again if we are truly honest. extremely few of us do that. We are raising kids, working jobs, watching the news, posting on forums, watching youtube videos, and when we remember to do so, we pray and read the Bible almost as an afterthought.

They buried themselves in God, the scriptures, in prayer and fellowship and service. And they did so not in a negative fanatic way, but with love. It wasn't legalistic the way they did this, it wasn't puffed up like the Pharisees and such. Their hunger for God was so intense that nothing less than full communion with Him would satisfy. And I believe God honored that.

We in our day are truly spoiled more than we know. We think we are persecuted if someone disagrees with our pov on a scripture verse, or dares to oppose having the ten commandments posted in a court house, or have an atheist ridicule us.

This isn't to say we don't love God, or that we aren't believers. But the cares of this world have truly entwined in our lives like thorny vines, and choke off the flow of the Holy Spirit.  We expect God to meet us where WE choose, at OUR convenience, don't interfere with our plans for the day, and then are frustrated when we don't experience that fullness the OT prophets and NT apostles did.

A lifetime of full commitment done in love not out of pride or arrogance is a major requirement, I think, towards reaching that level of fullness in God. It is a height I would love to reach but like everyone else, I, too, struggle with the demands of raising kids and working. Doesn't mean God won't share a taste of that with us, but it does mean that we have to be honest and extra careful in testing what comes to be sure it lines up with scripture and is not born of our own thoughts that have not been anywhere near as disciplined as those of old.

just my thoughts on it.

I think this is a terrific post.

I think so too.

This is one of those times when you get ready to post and you know you want to say "something" but you don't know what because even though you've read the thread through, it's tough to pin down a specific point or thought.  WW, you have many posts throughout this thread and several times you've referred to those who see everything as "spiritual" and yet because they have no Scriptural passages that are enough evidence for you, you kinda imply that their (my) pov isn't relevant. 

Seeing as much conversation has been between you and Sheila, who is also very spiritual in her perceptions as well as the mentioning of Cardinal . .Taffy would have been another but he's kinda backed out for a while as well.  But "because" EVERYTHING for me really is to be seen spiritual, comments that give reference to the idea that seeing things spiritually isn't really an answer to many of the questions presented always grabs my attention. 

I remember commenting on a conversation recently that Molly was involved with in trying to explain things she'd been seeing yet others were questioning the validity of them and it ties in with much of what's been discussed here in that I get the feeling that most would rather wrestle with their logic than consider that perhaps everything really "is" meant to be understood on another dimension beyond logic and reasoning.

WW, you stated
My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.

I whole-heartedly believe that everything literally written is a pattern of the spiritual realm of things.  But where you say it means we know nothing of the spiritual realm, I say, through those patterns, we can "see" the spiritual principles.  But the spiritual side of it isn't based on the same principles as the natural side of it.  Natural is based on information and knowledge, whereas spiritual is based on relationship.

It was Peter's relationship with Jesus that enabled him to receive a revelation from God of who Jesus was.

Matthew 16
3When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Let's play with this a bit, shall we?

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

For me, this is so similar to many of the conversations that take place on the thousands of forums much like this one on any given day.  People love to express their opinions of who they think Jesus is to them.  There are as many opinions as there are minds that embrace them.  Everyone has an opinion.  Some see Jesus with a message of repentance or else, others see him with great power and drama, others see him as a man of great passion .. . but the whole mood changes when Jesus then poses a more personal question . . .who do "you" say that I am.

I've stated all along, and it's also why I "don't" make sure I always post a Scripture and verse with my comments.  It's not about adopting the opinion of what someone else stated, even if that means it's a Scripture verse.  Jesus isn't asking Peter how well he knows the text, he's asking him to tell him "in his own words, from his own heart" who does "he" see Jesus to be.  Peter's answer was not one based on all of his efforts of studying what everyone else said about Jesus.  Peter's answer was a personal revelation that came from inside him, inside his spirit, not his head.  If anything, what came out of his mouth was a birthing of a seed that had already been planted in his mind, a life-seed and Jesus was the midwife that ushered the birthing into personal comprehension.

Notice Jesus didn't change the name of all the disciples, this wasn't something they'd all decided was a good answer, this was a PERSONAL experience that Peter had and because of it, Jesus marked the moment by changing Peter's name, which was a reflection of the inward change of how communication with Peter would be in the days ahead.  Jesus was no longer laying line upon line with him, precept upon precept.  Peter became a Dad that day, he birthed a revelation of Jesus.

And for Peter, the rest of the disciples, and all who read this passage, Jesus immediately explained what just happened.  Jesus was defining the difference between knowledge and revelation.

6And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

In recent conversations, I've frustrated some by my emphasis about everything being spiritual.  But "this" is why.  Spiritual truth does not come by way of flesh and blood, by way of natural rationale.  The natural is exactly as you said WW.  The natural is God's alphabet.  It's what he writes with to "lead us" into a deeper relationship.  People who have seen the natural splendors this realm and world has to offer, often walk away with a more profound realization of God's presence.  That happens because the natural leads us into the depths of spiritual truth.  It is not "the" depths of spiritual truth, it only "leads" us there.  It is only through our relationship that those signs come alive and we can read the language on a spiritual plain now instead of embracing the natural patterns and signs.

The signs and patterns are relevant, but they are not the emphasis, nor are they the foundation.  They are merely the tools used to get us into the places where our relationship with God can become God's avenue of communication.  "We" communicate with words.  God communicates with relationships.  It's a spiritual DNA thing.  His nature, his truth, his power and splendor is in us without our minds being required to identify, comprehend, activate and operate in those truths.  Anymore than I have to consciously decide I'm going to have the same mannerisms, and characteristics as my Mom and Dad. 

Much of the discussions "about" things of God are in comparison to how we would go about taking blood samples of our parents and scientifically breaking them down microscopically and identifying each characteristic found in the blood.  in the end, it's intriguing at best, but does it bring us any closer to our parents?

Seeing Scripture as an inward picture of "man" reveals to me why I am the way I am.  It's not about me trying to dissect the nature of God, it's about God revealing my own nature to "me".  That's why the serpent is a PATTERN of how carnality in my mind operates.  There is an inner conscience . . .it's at odds with the serpent nature . . .that's the enmity placed there by God.  Eve is my soul and it hears the conscience, but it's also deceived by the carnality that influences my conscience.  Spirit is never deceived, but it "can" be bound and buried should "I" which is the culmination of the body, soul and spirit that makes up the "me", choose to give in to the carnal nature, the devil, the satan, the serpent "in" me. 

And "that's" where the resurrection of Christ comes in.  What's being resurrected is my "spirit" is once again being realigned and repositioned to it's original place "in" me.  I once was dead, but now I'm alive.  That's why Jesus could say "let the dead bury the dead".  But we can't get caught up in trying to make that fit literally . . .just like being born again . .that was also argued against by the religious leaders who tried to take that literally as well.  Nothing fits when you try to view spiritual things as literal events.  That goes double for the book of Revelation.

It's not a book called "revelation".  It's a REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.  And we've already established who it is that can receive a revelation, right?  Only those who are "in" a relationship with God.  Not in a religion, not in a doctrine or philosophy, but in a "relationship".  that's why that book is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted books in the entire Bible.  It's a revelation of Jesus . . .same as what Peter just received.  But it's not supposed to be given to just anyone.  and there lies the problem.  People without the relationship have interpreted to be something it's not.

Which ties in with this revelation that Jesus just had with Peter.

20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ

This is not a revelation for "man" . . .it's a revelation for the SPIRIT that is "in" man.

So . . .I'll say it again . . .everything . . .EVERYTHING is spiritual.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2011, 06:33:45 PM
Molly I gave my view in post #7 but reading post #22 is was only understood half.

My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.

QuoteMaybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?

See my last reply to Sheila.
People who reject NDEs must also reject the majority of the "it's spiritual" post on this forum as lies from the devil....
If NDEs are lies of the devil. Due to drugs abuse. Just a way to make money etc the conclusion is simple. It's all fake.
As far as I'm concerned that's not limited to full blown NDEs but also "HS thaught me" type of stuff.

NDEs come in various "formats".
a] Feeling of happiness and warmth. Nothing more.
b] A voice tells the person something.
c] Full blown NDE in which people see and hear things.

Besides the "dead component" b and c it's how God seems to communicate with His phropets.
Voice from a burning bush. 7 fat and 7 thin cows. And a massive vision called Revelation.

Jews have grouped their OT books in section. The relevant ones are Major and Minor Prophets.
Does it anywhere in the NT say that the times of God's interaction with people is over?
What if the NDE people are, let's call them, Tiny Prophets?
Would that be an unbiblical thought?
I even posted medical proof of NDEs.

If one accepts the visions in the Bible then that for me automatically means NDEs can't be ruled out.

The Bible tells us about true and false prophets/religions/ways/etc.
That can be easily extrapolated to:
- True/false NDEs.
- True/false "HS told me".
- True/false "It's spiritual".

Believing in NDEs is the "easy" step. The real challange is diffrenciating the wheat from the chaff.
Every view that contradics (or requires to ignore) verses is chaff.
NDEs that align with Scripture can be true. It wouldn't be that hard for me to give you a Biblically sound and detailed description of the vision I never had....
NDEs that don't contradict Scripture but can't be really verified either.

So NDEs come in two categories. Proven false and possibly true.

sometimes NDEs seem to contradict scripture because we don't fully understand the scripture. sometimes NDEs seem to confirm scripture because we don't fully understand scripture. Sometimes we need to be sifted, before we understand much of anything.

Peter. Satan has desired to sift you like wheat, but don't worry, I ve prayed for you. :o)