Tentmaker Forum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Judaism

Judaism:
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.

I've also read the waiting room part in a NDE.

Nice watch Brian. Except when it's 6 'o clock....  :laughing7:

QuoteAccording to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds.

this is what I have ever believed will judgment be like before reading a word from the bible and still, makes the most sense for me.

QuoteGehinnom is the name given to Hell in the Rabbinic literature. The name was borrowed from that of a real valley (see Joshua 15:2,8 and 18:16; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron.28:3 and 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31-32 and 19:2,6; Nehemiah 11:30) where burnings took place. See also Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 19:11-13; Job 17:6. Punishment in Gehinnom lasts only for up to 12 months, except for certain major sinners. Isaiah 66:24 must be referring to it when he speaks of the fire that is not extinguished.

QuoteThe overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception.

I wonder where that 11-12 months come from. Ok Wikipedia states that it comes from "Rabbinic literature" but where did they get it from. Interpretation of some verse(s)?

There is also an exception for 'certain major sinners'
Any indication on the length of that exception?
"Certain major" sounds like a handful of people but I'm almost sure some will explain it as 'every none Christian that wasn't in Church every sunday"

BTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)
Care to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.

Do they consider the Bible to be Rabbinic literature I wonder?

I didn't realize there was such a thing as Christian Bling. But the picture of that ring proves it... :laughing7:

Quote from: Brian on April 21, 2009, 08:49:44 PM

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment.

:cloud9: As I got to this part something occurred to me. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. The Lord told me that hell was separation from God and that many were in hell walking the face of the earth, ie. WITH bodies.

So if they're "dead" and "IN" hell, yet walking the earth, then that means the place, or rather state of being, exists, which was further proved by Him resurrecting and bringing the souls of those trapped there that were WITHOUT BODIES, with Him.

So it appears the key factor here is, with or without physical bodies. And on another line of thought, the body is the grave, so we have one type of death, hell, and the grave right "here" without "going" anywhere. And Jesus overcame death, hell, and the grave. Hmmmm. Blessings...

 :icon_flower: Well for mine- yup ...could be the reason why Hell\death is cast into the 2nd death ,for those who still reside there :happy3: Rev 20:14, death and Hell being a state of being,..as those who Knew HIM NOT, DEAD TO THE Life HE IS. :icon_flower:


:icon_flower:

 :cloud9: It does sound that way doesn't it, and since we now know it to be a refining fire of God, I believe that is the "Gehenna" that I was taken to.

I also saw it once, with 2 relatives in that place, one of which had passed. I saw an underground lake of fire; the whole scene was like in a cave. Both relatives had a tormented look in their eyes, but both were walking around "free" in this place. The only light was the fire.

The "funny" thing was; when I had this dream/vision, one of them was literally alive and one of them was literally dead, but both were in the same place. This was well over 16 years ago, at least 5-8 years before I was taken into the "hell" of someone else, with Him, or had even pondered such things.

I'm trying to focus on this and see if He will give me anything on it, in the midst of the "storm" I'm in currently. Blessings...

Well, we know that the definition of "eternal" life is to know the Father and the Son. So anyone that doesn't have them automatically doesn't have that life until they do know him. What's harder to ferret out, is what exactly happens to them until they do know him.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 22, 2009, 08:29:10 AMCare to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.

Tele Tubbie level?  You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a Tele Tubbie??  Nothing but a big Tele Tubbie!  Anyway, I think you've got this stuff down as well as I do, or will probably have it down that well by year's end if you keep digging.  At least where the Hell subject's concerned.  I get the feeling you'll understand it better than I do by either the end of this year or the end of next year at the latest.  The Holy Spirit's been talking to you for a while, so don't ever feel like others hear Him but you don't yet.  I'm genuinely not sure what that's about, but it's been on me for a little over a week to say it's Him talking to you about something.  Again, that's between you and Him, unless either of you clue me in on what's been going on, but neither of you have to.  I just know something's been going on and you weren't sure if it was God, I think. 

Found out why I'd mentally totally dazed on that unsolicited prophetic word that I received Tuesday evening that I'd told you had sorta left my brain as cheeze whiz for the time being.  This morning when I got up and went to the restroom to brush my teeth, the Holy Spirit made me flash back and the part that had apparently fried my brain for a moment was that they said I was going to be a Pop.  Had to look that word up 'cause I thought I knew, but it wasn't a form of father or dad used by my family or any of my friends.  Not even sure who uses that specific word any more.  I might have heard Jonathan Kent called that once in an earlier season of Smallville.  That was apparently the part that made my brain freeze.  That's genuinely really cool, whether it winds up having a spiritual and/or a physical fulfillment.  I was just honestly wondering what had been said that had made my brain hit the pause button.  Hopefully the Holy Spirit will explain to me before very long why He used that specific word, when other words would have been more obvious to me.  Had to google it this morning to make sure I was understanding it correctly. 

Perhaps my tendency to have over spiritualized any other word had any other word been used.  But this one sorta leaves me scratching my head 'cause to my knowledge I have no genuine relational prospects.  Just means not to be sitting indian style lost in some kind of outta body experience, like someone outta Beverly Hills Ninja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Hills_Ninja) when something horrendously gorgeous, or at least horrendously gorgeous to me walks by with my autopilot set to it's normal "not for me" setting.  But to even start running that by the Holy Spirit rather than slipping into the opposite extreme from where I've been at and suddenly start having the puppy dog eyes for every girl that looks like she might be available.  I hate it when guys turn into Chow dogs.  Bleh! Give the lady some respect and some space and quit breathing on her while visualizing her naked body if she obviously ain't into you.  Sheesh!  Anyway, I've got Victorian-era issues sometimes. :icon_jokercolor:

Anyway, where was I?  Ah, yes.  WhiteWings:  Ever since I saw your comment I started looking at Judaism's view on divine retribution and  there's some articles online that'll approximate the so-called evidence that the ETer will claim makes ET to have always been a part of the divine revelation of God in the Bible.  But the sources cited on this subject are the very ones they'll jump on Joseph Good and various other New Covenant Messianic Rabbis for having cited Jewish tradition from 'cause they were supposedly Kabbalistic sources.  So, I wish the Christian ETers would at least be consistent to where if we're supposed to be leery of Kabbalah, then perhaps that should tell us something that anything that comes close to approximating ET for a select few should be regarded as having occultic origins.  Everything I've ever looked at regarding Kabbalah has been nothing but Jewish Gnosticism, but apparently the body of literature under the banner of "Kabbalah" is a bit more extensive and covers a wider spectrum than I'd previously realized.

Much of what I was finding online was the few months theory of afterlife punishment, and some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.  And then the video of all that your life could have ever been had you made the right decisions will be played.  So, the consensus among those in Judaism that believe in afterlife punishment is to at least make Judgment Day extremely insightful, had we not been cowards and had we done what God wanted us to do, etc.  I'd heard that kicked around for years among some Christians, and I'm thinking there's even an Amy Grant song that sorta goes there very briefly, but I didn't know they were getting that from some of the modern Rabbis.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 01:19:48 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 22, 2009, 08:29:10 AMCare to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.

Tele Tubbie level?  You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a Tele Tubbie??  Nothing but a big Tele Tubbie!

You must be the  scarlet one... (http://www.google.com/images?q=tbn:gB9wD7fZqAPuyM::ciadeorquestracaocenica1.zip.net/images/teletubbie.jpg)

QuoteAnyway, I think you've got this stuff down as well as I do, or will probably have it down that well by year's end if you keep digging.  At least where the Hell subject's concerned.  I get the feeling you'll understand it better than I do by either the end of this year or the end of next year at the latest.

I'm gonna die this year? :icon_jokercolor:

QuoteThe Holy Spirit's been talking to you for a while, so don't ever feel like others hear Him but you don't yet.  I'm genuinely not sure what that's about, but it's been on me for a little over a week to say it's Him talking to you about something.  Again, that's between you and Him, unless either of you clue me in on what's been going on, but neither of you have to.

I really didn't notice anything and whatever spiritual way. Perhaps HS is a bit subtile. I've never been a master in picking up subtile hints... So when you meet HS tonight tell Him not to knock on my door but use a sledgehammer.

Seriously.... Every post I've written on this forum, wrong or right, is just based on the same human reasoning I would use for the quaran or a manual for a toothbrush. But I would like it's true what you suggested. I'm gotten a bit curious after all those posts here on TM. :HeartThrob:

QuoteMuch of what I was finding online was the few months theory of afterlife punishment, and some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.  And then the video of all that your life could have ever been had you made the right decisions will be played.  So, the consensus among those in Judaism that believe in afterlife punishment is to at least make Judgment Day extremely insightful, had we not been cowards and had we done what God wanted us to do, etc.

But where do those writings come from? Just some speculation? Or interpretation of some verses?
You forgot to answer the main question....

QuoteBTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)

I'm at least 99% sure you had some interpretation that (possibly) set a duration for hell/LoF

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMSo when you meet HS tonight tell Him not to knock on my door but use a sledgehammer.

I like God's sledgehammers.  Get to see one every once in a while yet, since having become an adult, if I'm not in too big of a hurry.  Ever seen a plant start plowing through the sidewalk or through some other form of cement or concrete?  Day by day, millimeter by millimeter each week, depending on the light and water it's getting and perhaps the growth of other plants within a few feet cheering it on.  Proximity to God's Promises in His Word starts the process.  Stay where God's Word, particularly the promises of His Word and of His Spirit are paramount, and you'll be stunned the day something is just sooo clearly Him.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, until he sends forth judgment unto victory." Matthew 12:20

One of the reasons I've been running as fast as I can back into the principle of the seed that God started my spiritual life with is because His gentleness is overlooked in UR circles.  I knew that before coming into UR when I'd be studying and sharing anything in the Word that wasn't ET or left behind/tribulation related.  I guess the trigger for me going back to what in some circles is called the Word of Faith message is because of the Postmillenialism that God's been talking to me about for three years where God's conclusion of world history and of each believer's faith won't necessarily be cataclysmic, but it'll be that little twig pressing against the cement with the Gospel prevailing in every heart; bruised reeds not being broken, and smoking flax not quenched until He's snuck up on everyone with the biggest hug.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMSeriously.... Every post I've written on this forum, wrong or right, is just based on the same human reasoning I would use for the quaran or a manual for a toothbrush. But I would like it's true what you suggested. I'm gotten a bit curious after all those posts here on TM. :HeartThrob:

Well, everything around here has been pretty basic for about a year since some of the boards got pulled.  Even before then it wasn't much to speak of.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMBut where do those writings come from? Just some speculation? Or interpretation of some verses?

Some of it is that, some of it is just the layering upon layering of traditions that someone said that someone said that someone said, while other stuff is occultic mysticism that a lot of Jews got into during the Babylonian captivity.  Not all of them stayed with some of the Biblical basics as understood by Daniel and his friends in the book of Daniel.  That's why God was judging them with letting a foreign power oppress them.  I get leery of writings that came out of a time when people really weren't where they needed to be with God and God was kicking their backside over it at the time, but allegedly they really stumbled upon the secrets of the universe while their hearts were far from Him.  Like a broken clock, probably 100,000% right twice a day, but mixed together with so much bull.  I'm not discounting the parts that some believers have found so meaningful, but I genuinely question how discerning they are regarding some of the rest of what they're reading or if they think they're finding validation of many things they've been in error about regarding their understanding of the Bible because of bad translations that for all we know may have even come from previous millenia of devotees to these very writings in question rather than necessarily exclusively forcing an opinion of Biblical interpretation into the translation.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMBTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)

I'm genuinely not sure if I ever mentioned that.  Might be confusing me with  whose username at the boards was SotW 'cause he held to a one day theory of afterlife punishment.  I sincerely don't remember much of what I share at these boards.  When I get a chance, I'll go to my profile and try to dig through my older posts to see if I can find what you're referring to and if anything sparks any memories of having referred to this or that that I was reading at the time, or perhaps being inspired to have added something to what someone else was saying.  What I might have cited was something from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment" where he mentions Hell being about a year in Judaism, or about 11 months or so.  I'll try to find my copy of that book this weekend and see if that's what I was referring to.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMBTW our big leader  Martin...

I'm not a leader.  Just someone (actually a nobody) hanging on to God for dear life wanting the revelation/manifestation/transformation/mercy/grace/whatever that'll let him have his heaven.  Sorta selfish, I guess, when you think about it, but if you ever have God to someday give you clarity about something once in your life, it's not the kind of thing that'll easily be pried from cold dead hands.  It's going to be a pretty busy day today, but I'm going to try to stop and smell the flowers and remember the meaning of real beauty to me.  There was a sci-fi during the 90s and early part of this decade that never did catch on as well as it should have, and that was likely partly a marketing failure.  But nothing else really gives me the illustration quite like the television program Sliders.  I keep opening these interdemensional portals between parallel earths and I'm just trying to find the one that takes me to heaven.  What's heaven for me.  And everyday's just a different slide and a different Twilight Zone reality for me until time, chance, probability, or whatever, perhaps divine mercy, gets the right window opened.  But I'm genuinely sure I'm not a leader.  I can reevaluate my potential or whatever when the right vortex opens and I'm at least seeing a mirage if nothing else. :happy3:  If I genuinely help anyone along the way, then perhaps God was orchestrating the Slides along the way and me just being me happened to matter at that moment.  But I've got a pretty big claw in my face and have genuinely been desperate to hear how things have been going where my heart/treasure is.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure you're not dying this year.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 11:38:15 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMBTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)

I'm genuinely not sure if I ever mentioned that.  Might be confusing me with 'cause he held to a one day theory of afterlife punishment.  I sincerely don't remember much of what I share at these boards.  When I get a chance, I'll go to my profile and try to dig through my older posts to see if I can find what you're referring to and if anything sparks any memories of having referred to this or that that I was reading at the time, or perhaps being inspired to have added something to what someone else was saying.  What I might have cited was something from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment" where he mentions Hell being about a year in Judaism, or about 11 months or so.  I'll try to find my copy of that book this weekend and see if that's what I was referring to.

I'll try to dig it up but can't think of some good keywords to search

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AMBTW our big leader  Martin...

I'm not a leader.  Just someone (actually a nobody) [/quote]
Nobody is perfect.

QuoteAnd for the record, I'm pretty sure you're not dying this year.

:thumbsup:

I searched the forum and found nothing.
If you don't remember it either you no longer have that opinion or I just misunderstood what you wrote.
It was just a remark in a much larger post.
The link you made was extremely vague for me.
Like in Exodus there where three mules that could very well mean 3 month of LoF. (just an example)
If you really had pinpointed the time I'm sure you would remember.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 01:19:48 AM
some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.

I've seen several cartoons about that. Everyone has an angel that films your life.
I've been thinking of it today and in my opinion it can't be true for 2 reasons:
a] Aren't sins between you and to who you sinned to? Usually God Himself and certainly not 10 billion people.
b] Many sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.

Our belief system is just that . . .a "system".  Meaning that it's a conglomorate of conclusions we've come to through natural reasoning.  And what most are not aware of is, all of these support foundations are intertwined with one another.  A religious system is not like a car with a flat tire . . .one that you can jack up and fix the flat while relying on the support from the other three tires. 

But instead . . .it "is" much like the infrastructure of a very tall building.  If you try to remove one support beam, the others react to the weakened spot and the entire building becomes high risk to collapse completely. 

I say all of that to share this . . .
When one who's spent their time and efforts believing with the church that we're all bound for hell forever, or that only a fraction of all people born are actually going to make it into heaven . . .or even that there is a rapture . . .and then they mature into a more deeper understanding that causes them to not only reevaluate, but to also make adaptions to their beliefs . . .making one adaption in one area of my belief system is going to completely affect EVERY THING that I would also believe . . .even though it may not be directly connected, it still affects everything else . . it weakens my assuredness of what I believe and eventually, what was once my firm foundation on ET is now a pile of rubble . . .all because I chose to make one small compromise.

And I think "this" is what many traditionalists are so scared of.  They believe they've got most of the major things figured out and in order for their foundation to continue to support their belief system, they can't allow anything new to be added.  And that in and of itself basically flies in the face of the nature of God in the first place.  Is not the Holy Spirit all about change?  Being renewed, being transformed, growing from one level of relationship into the next . . .one does not know from where the wind comes or to where it blows . . .the Holy Spirit is even more unpredictable than the weather.  But when it comes to established traditions, they remain the same.

It's the same now as it was 2000 years ago . . .the time came for the Old Covenant to be replaced by the New . .whether they could accept it or not had nothing to do with the Truth that the time had come.  And I think it's the same way now . . . the time has come for all to allow the wind of the spirit to renavigate their belief systems to be led in a new direction . . .a new direction of thinking, a new direction of studying . . .a new direction of living.

The cartoons you speak of WW are still passed out in "tracks" today.  Now, I cringe when I see people passing out tracks . . .I used to do it all the time myself.  Relationship with the Father became a religious commodity that you needed to learn the ropes to sell to another.  I've yet to become a friend or have a relationship with another person who approached me with a written article about having a relationship with them.  It's the same thing when I see two guys in white shirts and ties going door to door . . . they have a product that they've packaged and are trying to pass off as Truth and life . . .if they were so interested in relationship . . .they'd be over as a friend.  They'd care about the junk I'm going through, they'd laugh when I laugh and cry when I cry . . but instead all I get from them is a rehearsed proposition to accept their leader is a prophet of God.

But you're absolutely right . .another favorite line they'd throw out there with your picture of the video screen is that what you do in secret will be shouted from the housetops . . .which fit in with that world-wide screen revealing all of the sinful things you did and thought.  But none it is was intended to be interpreted the way that the churches intrepreted it.

But the bottom line is, even though the church tries to continue going on with business as usual . . .there's been yet another veil that has come down and people's eyes are being opened, their ears are being healed and their minds are truly being renewed . . .and the result is . . .people are leaving the churches!  Because we are literally entering into the 3rd day . . .we are physically being exposed to an entirely new way of believing . . .what used to come by religious influence, is now coming by simple relationship . . .it's coming through revelation rather than intellectual renderings. 

In three days . . .Jesus said "I" will rebuild this temple . . .that was said two days ago . . . this is the third of the three . . .the time is upon us when the fulfillment of that prophecy is being completed, so all of those old Covenant cliches no longer hold the thunder that they once did . . .this is the manifestation of the Sabbath day coming to all whether they can see or not . . .vision is coming either way.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 07:54:48 PMMany sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.

:omg: :pointlaugh: :mrflo:  I had never thought of that before in my life!  Those of us that either deliberately or genuinely accidentally or sorta accidentally (depending on how old we were) saw some of those videos already could be excused from long parts of judgment day! :icon_jokercolor:

One thing I've mentioned before a few times and never got any feedback on from anyone on the boards is the possibility of eternal loss if not eternal punishment.  Elhanan Winchester brings up an interesting law from the Mosaic Law about those that lose a home in a walled city having one year to reclaim that home in the walled city, otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee.  And he likened that to someone blowing things off with the Lord and losing their spot in New Jerusalem and though saved, having lost something really precious in rights and priveleges.  That was late 1700s. 

I believe that George Rogers in 1838 mentioned it in a book of his where in that particular chapter he was talking about the different kinds of universalists that there were in his day.  And if I can find the book online before posting this, here's the link, I think.  If not, then I'm thinking of a different book where someone brings up quite a few universalists holding to that belief of the possibility of eternal loss if they blow off God's trumpet call to them in this life, while contrasting their view with that of others:  http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/difviews.html (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/difviews.html)

I'm not sure where my understanding is of the New Earth right now with my eyes, within the last few months having just pierced the veil beyond 1Corinthians 15:28 into the restoration to an Edenic type of existence after the reign of Christ.  I might know what life's going to be like there, but can't really think.  My cat, Leonardo, started acting the way he did after the fire when we had to be somewhere else today.  He was a little worse with abandonment issues and whatever and refused to use his litter box anywhere else, and he finally got sooo incredibly horrible that we had to come home early -- way too soon with the new finishing of the counter tops being done here. 

So, I've been exercising my faith against a really major high for about an hour, but Leonardo wouldn't chill out anywhere else.  I got a little nervous after a while that he might not mentally come back from wherever he was going if we didn't head home.  It got that bad, and instead of mocking how he behaved this last January after we had to move, I guess he was needing far more prayer over that than I realized.  I held him as much as I could where we were at, but he was needing a woman's touch apparently, and I had to crate him when he started turning into the cat from Alfred Hitchcock a few times in my arms.  With the patio, doors, and windows open, it's finally sorta breathable in here. 

Kind of a turpentine smell that's hopefully passing from this place and that I'm not just used to it by now.  I don't think he's gone to the restroom yet and it's after 6pm.  He wasn't so shocked that he couldn't eat.  He would eat while we were gone and then go right back to wailing as though he were in a Nazi concentration camp, Jonathan Edwards' Hell, or being forced to watch reruns of Alice at Mel's Diner for hours and hours and hours.  He was in absolute horror!  I should probably start laughing pretty hard at him now that we've been home for a while so that I can get the feline version of "kiss my grits" out of him 'cause he's almost back to normal now with the exception of not begging and begging and begging for food.  Seriously, though, when I'm up to it, I'm going to have to spend enough time with our Lord until I know what to do about this cat's issue.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 02:18:12 AM
  Elhanan Winchester brings up an interesting law from the Mosaic Law about those that lose a home in a walled city having one year to reclaim that home in the walled city, otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee. 

:cloud9: Oh, you mean sorta like those (souls) that lose their home in a walled city (soul hedged about with the spirit) having one year (time of perdition) to reclaim that home in the walled city otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee (ie. returning to their true estate/glorified body)?  THAT law? :laughing7:

Have you tried catnip for the cat, in new toy? Maybe a little warm condensed milk at night to relax him? I have to play "flying mouse" with my cat for a few minutes before bed every night to wear him out so he won't roam and carry on all night. Now he's so spoiled he brings the mouse....earlier....and earlier each night, LOL.

Leonardo's fine ordinarily, but has been having genuine issues with being anywhere but at home.  He's okay in an automobile.  Absolutely loves it, actually.  But if he's in a different house or apartment, he flips out!  He's even okay at the vet.  But anything that implies to his mind that we've moved and he loses it.  He won't go into the summer with that issue, though, in the Name of Jesus.  He's never been able to explain to me what's been going on with that.  But Holy Spirit will give me the key issue to what's been going on.  Then as soon as his covenant with God is correctly applied to his life, he'll never deal with that issue ever again.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 02:18:12 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 07:54:48 PMMany sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.

:omg: :pointlaugh: :mrflo:  I had never thought of that before in my life!  Those of us that either deliberately or genuinely accidentally or sorta accidentally (depending on how old we were) saw some of those videos already could be excused from long parts of judgment day! :icon_jokercolor:

Mmm, sure real porn movies too. I was meaning something different. Sins are shown on the big screen in front of all.
So that will include many acts of adultary. In the old days that was only when people cheated. But today most couples aren't even married. That's adultary to according to the Bible I think...?
I doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.

Praying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????

Yeah, I think I know what you meant.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:10:40 AMI doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.

And vice versa.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:10:40 AMPraying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????

There's many reasons for prayer to be done together in faith.  Jesus taught an intensification of results in agreement prayer between believers (Matthew 18:19).  What Jesus was primarily addressing in the sermon on the mount is being religiously correct, but not really having your heart in the right place; doing things to be seen by other people rather than by God.  What He said about fasting and giving was with the same end in mind in dealing with religious nonsense that someone's heart wasn't in, but was a pretense rather than a heart after God.  There's a million ways of knowing that that's how to take that, but the quickest and easiest is to glance through the Bible and see if we're told about examples of fasting, praying, and giving. 

St. Paul even boasted of the generocity of certain Churches, such as the Church at Philippi.  Publicly received and publicly planned for offerings are spoken of in 2Corinthians chapters 8 and 9 and the book of Philippians is specifically written contextually to faithful supporting partners of his ministry.  Believers praying together, arguably in a public setting, in Acts 4 received not only a fresh baptism with the Holy Spirit some time after they were initially filled in Acts 2, but the place was shaken this time and God's signs and wonders accompanied in the following chapter putting God's seal of approval on that prayer meeting.

Jesus is seen publicly praising God that God had hidden these things from the wise and prudent and had revealed them to babes.  Then there's what many people call the Lord's prayer.  Then there's John 17, in which the whole chapter is a prayer from Jesus to His heavenly Father.  St. Paul let it slip in his letters about his fasting.  Luke tells us about a Church that was fasting, praying, and doing other things in Acts 13, if I remember the reference correctly on which chapter had that in the opening verses.  The Bible's basically just saying, and Jesus meant to convey to make sure that your fasting, praying, and giving isn't limited to what others know about.  But that you're actually seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

I think we're pretty much in agreement that any type of Judgment day isn't God getting out the family videos and popcorn and showing everyone who screwed up the worst; seeing who loses their popcorn first or has their lights punched out in front of everybody for what was previously undisclosed.  The Bible even implies that it's a very satanic characteristic to publicly rub people's noses in their sin to shame them in front of everyone.  Love covers a multitude of offenses.  The brother of the prodigal son wanted his father to have publicly done something very different from what he did at the other son's return.  Satan's called the accuser of the brethren.  I'm thinking the KJV says a fraudulent man sows strife: and a whisperer separates chief friends; a gossip betrays a confidence. 

In the six things the Lord hates, or the seven that are an abomination to him in Proverbs 6 that include a lying tongue, a false witness who utters lies, feet that run rapidly to evil, haughty eyes, one who spreads strife, a heart that devises wicked plans, etc. would seem to include every scenario that would be sown for by such a public airing of everybody's sins that were public or private as well as the glorification of all that had previously been done.  It would disobey Philippians 4:8: whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.  And too many other issues would come up in such a scenario for judgment day.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 09:49:17 AM
Yeah, I think I know what you meant.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:10:40 AMI doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.

And vice versa.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:10:40 AMPraying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????

There's many reasons for prayer to be done together in faith.  Jesus taught an intensification of results in agreement prayer between believers (Matthew 18:19). 

Then I totally misunderstood:
Matthew 6:6  "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:21:18 AM
What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.

Two things: 1. preserve the intimacy of the relationship at all costs; 2. back up a verse from the one you quoted: "...that they may be seen of men..."  And then verses 21-23:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

And the chapter closes with "why are you worried about what you're going to eat, drink, and wear? Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and He'll clothe you better than Solomon was clothed."  From the context of the whole teaching and how it closes with building your house on the rock verses building it on the sand, we could probably add to the previous quotation that I gave, which was actually my paraphrase that I believe is thoroughly justified by the chapter -- you could also add, "why are you worried about what others are going to think?"  Psalms and Proverbs talks about the fear of man being a snare; better to trust in the Lord than to trust in men, etc.  And everything Jesus said was either verbatim from the Old Testament or a paraphrase of it.

The following chapter in Matthew says not to give your pearls to swine and continues with His teaching on prayer with "ask, seek, and knock" 'cause everyone who keeps asking, keeps receiving, everyone who keeps seeking, keeps finding, and everyone who keeps knocking keeps receiving opened doors.  So, enter by the narrow gate that leads to life by praying the way that He taught rather than trying to figure it out on your own and rather than making up your own rules along the way.  He's still King.  He's Daddy, yes.  But He's still, His Majesty.  By their fruits you'll know whether their prayers have found that secret place with the Father described in Psalm 91 and elsewhere.

There's also an immediate Rabbinical application specifically to the Jews of Jesus' Day where He was saying not to keep on pointlessly babbling like the Gentiles, but to pull that prayer shawl over your head and shut it around you, i.e. shut the door, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.  He was sorta drawing attention to the Jewish mysticism associated with the Jewish prayer shawl.  It was a way of saying to bury yourself in the Word of God since they had by tradition the threads at the end of the prayer shawl that stood for the 613 commandments of Moses.  It was a cryptic way of calling the Bible His secret place, and that if you'd meet Him there, then your Father would reward you openly.  He was reminding Covenant people of the tokens of the Mosaic Covenant that they were living in, and that if they'd practice that, then they'd live and find God's favor.  Again, this was a preCross teaching to Israel.  But at the same time, the implication of burying ourselves in the Word and what the New Testament refers to in the elements, promises, legal precidents, and principles of our New Testament worship will get the same and greater results than what Jesus was promising them that day.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 10:45:23 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:21:18 AM
What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.

Two things: 1. preserve the intimacy of the relationship at all costs; 2. back up a verse from the one you quoted: "...that they may be seen of men..." 

Sorry Martin but that verse even makes the other verse stronger. If I combine 6:5 and 6:6 I get:
6:5 Those praying in public are only there to look good. 6:6 If you want to do things right follow this advise.

Quote"why are you worried about what others are going to think?"

:umnick: Mmm, am I getting it right if I resume all the above as:
"It doesn't matter where you pray IF the only reason you pray is to get closer to God and not to look cool to others"

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 11:03:45 AMSorry Martin but that verse even makes the other verse stronger. If I combine 6:5 and 6:6 I get:
6:5 Those praying in public are only there to look good. 6:6 If you want to do things right follow this advise.

Are people that answer their cell phone in public only looking to appear to others to have a cell phone, only looking to appear to others to be able to answer it correctly, and only looking to appear to others to be conducting life and relationships on their cell phone in public?  Not everyone who starts praying is calculating that others would see/hear them, any more than the one answering their cell phone in public being the least bit concerned/conscious many times of who may see them answer it.  For some people, if that cell phone goes off and particularly from certain numbers, then that may indicate that their whole day just got rescheduled.  But there wasn't any care being taken to appear to others to have a life or whatever.  On the other hand, you've sometimes got to wonder about teenagers and younger having their cell phones in public: "Look at me, I've got a T-mobile account!!" 

The whole teaching from chapter 5 through chapter 7 of Matthew is a call to a reordering of priorities in one's life and to make sure that they're building their lives on the Word of God and avoiding going to Church just because it looks good with potential business contacts, because it'll give someone greater influence in the community, and because they'll be well thought of for having gone and given the best seats at restaurants, seminars, townhall/city council meetings, etc.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 11:03:45 AM:umnick: Mmm, am I getting it right if I resume all the above as:
"It doesn't matter where you pray IF the only reason you pray is to get closer to God and not to look cool to others"

Yup!  Getting closer to God, having your life rooted in Him that when something comes up in terms of disaster, need, or whatever that you're honestly looking to Him for grace to help in time of need -- instead of having an attitude of making sure that everyone hears you pray the appropriate prayer so that the Church will continue to pay your salary as their pastor, worship leader, or whatever.  I can be in a mall with 15,000 people in it and if I suddenly need God or God suddenly needs me for some reason, I'm just a flipping of an inner switch away from no longer being aware of anyone else in the room/hall/whatever.  But that grew out of many times of running off to get into that hiding place and developing my prayer life to where I could hear Him. 

Like Jesus, many times in my past, I'd have that nudge and I'd vanish, get up excessively early and wander off, etc.  There is that place of regular get aways with God to really develop your relationship that Jesus is honestly calling absolutely everyone to for a season.  I'm not dismissing the importance of making those extended times with the same detailed care of your schedule that you'd make all of the preparations for a hot date.  It'll really begin there.  Those are precious times between someone and God when you really learn to pull aside if you felt Him even look at you in an extra special way.  You just run off and spend time with Him asking "what can I do or say for You?  Was there something You needed to talk with me about?  Is there something that I can do for You that you really need someone you can trust?  Lord, am I being judgmental, or is that You saying for me to dismiss all this joker is saying?" et. al.

And it'll unquestionably develop from there, first with that thought that you weren't quite sure if that was you or Him, but you couldn't think of a Scriptural principle it would violate and/or perhaps it would be the very thing to do here if you were doing what Jesus did.  And as with everything else in life, good or bad, what you yield your attention and most dominant thought to suddenly begins to get bigger in your life, more pronounced, etc.  The foundation on the rock is being laid well enough to where God can build absolutely anything on it, according to 2Timothy 2 and 2Corinthians 9.  Many of the things in the New Testament, whether from Jesus, St. Paul, Peter, etc., it's helpful to try to pin down whether they were sharing general principles applicable to anyone/everyone and especially believers, or whether there was a primary implication to clergy, whether the Pharisees or ministry officers in the Church.  It won't mean that they can't have universal relevance, but it'll explain tones, criticisms of hypocrisy, etc., as far as who was initially being addressed as an example to all of the rest of us and that perhaps in emphasizing such and such to others that the same accountability and foot in the rear end might not necessarily be as applicable for immediate implimentation.

Unlike a dispensationalist, I don't believe that "audience relevance" negates something applying universally, but it should be factored in to understanding emotions, choices in wording, and any relevant cultural aspects helpful in interpreting what was even being addressed.  The closet in Judaism was the section closed off by the prayer shawl around your head.  Didn't matter where you wore your prayer shawl, whether on a retreat, in your hotel room, at the synogogue, or on Main Street, as much as Jesus pointing people back to the Word regarding their prayer life, their attitudes and consciousness as they were praying, the Written Word as the source of their answered prayers and adjusted/transformed attitudes and consciousness, and whether or not they were drowning in what people think about them to the neglect of what He's thinking about them moment by moment.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 11:42:14 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 11:03:45 AMSorry Martin but that verse even makes the other verse stronger. If I combine 6:5 and 6:6 I get:
6:5 Those praying in public are only there to look good. 6:6 If you want to do things right follow this advise.

Are people that answer their cell phone in public only looking to appear to others to have a cell phone, only looking to appear to others to be able to answer it correctly, and only looking to appear to others to be conducting life and relationships on their cell phone in public?

Little quick story. A young woman was talking on her cell phone at the bus stop. Walking back and forth and having real fun on her phone. She is a really wanted girl with a social life.
Then suddenly the cell phone she's talking to/with.......  rings......  :LH:
No try to imagine a really red face :pointlaugh:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:03:58 PMLittle quick story. A young woman was talking on her cell phone at the bus stop. Walking back and forth and having real fun on her phone. She is a really wanted girl with a social life.
Then suddenly the cell phone she's talking to/with.......  rings......  :LH:
No try to imagine a really red face :pointlaugh:

Happens in many more cities than you'd think. :goodone: :eek: :doh: :laugh:

Perhaps I should clarify my comment.  It's never happened to me.  Some preachers though, can be guilty of that one too.  Nervous about street preaching, so grab the cell phone and start acting like it's the most lively conversation over the Word of God. And suddenly their cell phone starts going :angelharp:  Best way to save face is to say, "huh!  I never heard my phone indicate our call had been dropped.  What was the last thing you heard me say??"  even if the person on the other end has zero idea what you're talking about and is saying "huh???" LOL!  I've thought about using the cell phone pulpit a few times, but couldn't bring myself to do it, figuring Murphy's Law that something would have to go wrong somehow if I started pretending or whatever in order to try to acheive some higher good.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 25, 2009, 12:18:30 PM
Perhaps I should clarify my comment.  It's never happened to me.

Well chances are that eventually your phone will ring.  :winkgrin:
 

QuoteSome preachers though, can be guilty of that one too.  Nervous about street preaching, so grab the cell phone and start acting like it's the most lively conversation over the Word of God. And suddenly their cell phone starts going :angelharp:  Best way to save face is to say, "huh!  I never heard my phone indicate our call had been dropped.

Are your sermons as well prepared as your phone Acts?

QuoteWhat was the last thing you heard me say??"

What? O wrong number...

Quoteeven if the person on the other end has zero idea what you're talking about and is saying "huh???" LOL!  I've thought about using the cell phone pulpit a few times, but couldn't bring myself to do it, figuring Murphy's Law that something would have to go wrong

Martin just switch off the phone next time.

Quotesomehow if I started pretending or whatever in order to try to acheive some higher good.

Can a higher good be reached by a lie? (fake phone calls)

Quote from: sven on April 21, 2009, 09:57:41 PM
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds.

This reminds me of a couple thoughts I had recently.  One was that if the Kingdom of God is within us,  and is love, joy, peace, etc......,    then isn't the Kingdom of  darkness within persons also?  And wouldn't it be hate, guilt, fear, misery, confusion, ignorance,  etc......?  
 And the other thought I had was regarding the rich man and Lazarus.  I feel like the Spirit was showing me that the rich man was simply in some "place of remembering"  ,  and that thats what his problem was.   His own darkness within.   So he could not possibly be happy when faced with the reality of God.   So he had to endure some things. So he could be brought to repentance and then to a knowledge of the truth which transforms and sets us free.     And where as on the contrary,   Lazarus  was able to be happy when faced with the truth of God.    Thats what Lazarus wanted!    So Lazarus was more ready, if you will, than the rich man was,  to be with God.
 I believe something beautiful happened eventually.   After the rich man repented and was transformed by God's truth,   not only did God forgive him,  but so did Lazarus.  And I'm sure they embraced,  and who knows, maybe the rich man served Lazarus at a couple of heavenly dinners to demonstrate his changed heart!      

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:33:59 PMWell chances are that eventually your phone will ring.  :winkgrin:

Yeah, it's inevitable, 'cause inevitably that winds up becoming a habit. Who could resist once they've started on that road?

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:33:59 PMAre your sermons as well prepared as your phone Acts?

I'm just me: the good, the bad, the ugly, the so-so lyric and the works.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:33:59 PMWhat? O wrong number...

I would sincerely hope I'd never been or never could be that crass.  I'd genuinely never stop apologizing if I ever did make that blunder.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:33:59 PMMartin just switch off the phone next time.

It's fun to think that that's happened to me, but it really hasn't.  I'd be the first one to admit if it had.  Why not?  I tend to give TMI about everything else anyway! LOL!

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 12:33:59 PMCan a higher good be reached by a lie? (fake phone calls)

Never.  The Platonic precept of the medicinal lie has obviously been disproven centuries ago, by reason, experience, and the divine revelation of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.  It's not anything I've ever done.

 :cloud9: If I remember correctly, the few NDE's I read about, said they were shown their lives like a movie at impossibly high speed. I think the soul "recorded" every minute of it, as a "witness". Blessings....

If it is a impossible high speed how can it be possible?  (http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:nZxojsTpClY6rM:http://www.westwoodracing.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif)

Public or private display?
AFAIK there is nothing about video in the Bible. So what came first? The video idea or the NDE?....
So many are trying to make some $ that I'm very sceptical about NDEs.
Unless it was your own NDE. That would change things  :icon_king:

 :cloud9: Because it comes "in" as spirit, so it is nearly an instant imputation. No, I've never had one, but I had HIS "life history" imparted into me in such a fashion, when I was shown everything in that "explosion" of the cross moment I told you about, so I have an idea how it happens.

My grandmother and uncle had NDE's though. They told me about them before they passed. I know there are people out there trying to make money off the experience, but people will do that with just about anything, so that to me does not discount the experience, just the motive of the heart of some of the people sharing it.

The "woman/soul" is the witness to the Spirit (just as the creation is His witness or mirror image), so it makes sense in that principle understanding to me, that "she" is the "recorder", "she" remembers our sins against us, but the Spirit forgives them and remembers them no more, in His perfect timing.

Also makes sense in line with the fact that we are to remit (remember no more) the sins of others (while we live) thru the Spirit, as the Spirit does the works. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 25, 2009, 05:25:19 PM
My grandmother and uncle had NDE's though. They told me about them before they passed. I know there are people out there trying to make money off the experience, but people will do that with just about anything, so that to me does not discount the experience

The problem is to know when en you read an NDE that ain't fake. The problem is with so much lies around how to know what's true. If you want to grow in faith and are looking for a teacher. You know a 1000 teachers but statisticly seen you know 900 are fake. So you have 10% change studying yourself closer to God. And 90% chance away from God.
Would you chose a teacher or not. Same with NDEs

QuoteThe "woman/soul" is the witness to the Spirit (just as the creation is His witness or mirror image),

Some say the Hebrew text doesn't say 'image' but 'shadow'. That sounds much more negative.

Quoteso it makes sense in that principle understanding to me, that "she" is the "recorder", "she" remembers our sins against us, but the Spirit forgives them and remembers them no more, in His perfect timing.

So she is that nagging voice of shame inside?

 :cloud9: What few NDE's I ever read about were remarkably similar, no matter what the person's religious beliefs were in life. That to me, points to something. My grandmother and uncle's fell in line with those also. Both of them were Catholic at the time, but didn't attend anymore. My grandmother came to the Lord as a result of this, and lived almost another 6 six years.

The soul; she's the contentious "woman" in the wilderness (of sin) that proverbs talks about. Shadow is accurate. There are a lot of Hebrew words that tie in with that, where image is listed. You get a chance, look it up and run all the root words. Blessings....

Cardinal,
Below the requested list.
I took "image" from Genesis 1:26. Looked up the Hebrew word for it and let my software search.
Then I took image in greek (eikon)and listed that below the Hebrew part

---

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, like us: and let him have rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every living thing which goes flat on the earth.
27 And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them.

Genesis 5:3 Adam had been living for a hundred and thirty years when he had a son like himself, after his image, and gave him the name of Seth:

Genesis 9:6 Whoever takes a man's life, by man will his life be taken; because God made man in his image.

Numbers 33:52 See that all the people of the land are forced out from before you, and put to destruction all their pictured stones, and all their metal images, and all their high places:

1 Samuel 6:5 So make images of the growths caused by your disease and of the mice which are damaging your land; and give glory to the God of Israel: it may be that the weight of his hand will be lifted from you and from your gods and from your land.
11 And they put the ark of the Lord on the cart and the chest with the gold images.

2 Kings 11:18 Then all the people of the land went to the house of Baal and had it pulled down: its altars and images were all broken to bits, and Mattan, the priest of Baal, they put to death before the altars. And the priest put overseers over the Lord's house.

2 Chronicles 23:17 Then all the people went to the house of Baal and had it pulled down, and its altars and images broken up; and Mattan, the priest of Baal, they put to death before the altars.

Psalm 39:6 Truly, every man goes on his way like an image; he is troubled for no purpose: he makes a great store of wealth, and has no knowledge of who will get it.

Psalm 73:20 As a dream when one is awake, they are ended; they are like an image gone out of mind when sleep is over.

Ezekiel 7:20 As for their beautiful ornament, they had put it on high, and had made the images of their disgusting and hated things in it: for this cause I have made it an unclean thing to them.

Ezekiel 16:17 And you took the fair jewels, my silver and gold which I had given to you, and made for yourself male images, acting like a loose woman with them;

Ezekiel 23:14 And her loose behaviour became worse; for she saw men pictured on a wall, pictures of the Chaldaeans painted in bright red,

Amos 5:26 Truly, you will take up Saccuth your king and Kaiwan your images, the star of your god, which you made for yourselves.

---

---

---

Matthew 22:20 And he said to them, Whose is this image and name on it?

Mark 12:16 And they gave him one. And he said to them, Whose is this image and name on it? And they said to him, Caesar's.

Luke 20:24 Let me see a penny. Whose image and name are on it? And they said, Caesar's.

Romans 1:23 And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth.

Romans 8:29 Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers:

1 Corinthians 11:7 For it is not right for a man to have his head covered, because he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And in the same way as we have taken on us the image of the man from the earth, so we will take on us the image of the one from heaven.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face giving back as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:4 Because the god of this world has made blind the minds of those who have not faith, so that the light of the good news of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not be shining on them.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which has become new in knowledge after the image of his maker;

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, being only a poor copy of the future good things, and not the true image of those things, is never able to make the people who come to the altar every year with the same offerings completely clean.

Revelation 13:14 And those who are on the earth are turned from the true way by him through the signs which he was given power to do before the beast; giving orders to those who are on the earth to make an image to the beast, who was wounded by the sword, and came to life.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give breath to the image of the beast, so that words might come from the image of the beast, and that he might have all those who did not give worship to the image of the beast put to death.

Revelation 14:9 And a third angel came after them, saying with a loud voice, If any man gives worship to the beast and his image, and has his mark on his brow or on his hand,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their pain goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, who give worship to the beast and his image, and have on them the mark of his name.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw a sea which seemed like glass mixed with fire; and those who had overcome the beast and his image and the number of his name, were in their places by the sea of glass, with God's instruments of music in their hands.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and let what was in his vessel come down on the earth; and it became an evil poisoning wound on the men who had the mark of the beast, and who gave worship to his image.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, by which they were turned from the true way who had the mark of the beast, and who gave worship to his image: these two were put living into the sea of ever-burning fire.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw high seats, and they were seated on them, and the right of judging was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were put to death for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who did not give worship to the beast, or to his image, and had not his mark on their brows or on their hands; and they were living and ruling with Christ a thousand years.

Just had a thought when taking my yearly bath about LoF being now.
Some ET site claim that in the 3 days Jesus was dead He decended to hell to preach to the 'dead'.
I have no idea on what verses they based that but that's not important now. (I think)
If this is LoF Jesus indeed decended to hell/LoF. Not for 3 days but for 33 years.
Just a thought.

 :cloud9: It's in there that He preached to the captives, in one of the gospels, don't remember which one. But I missed your other point that you came to, after your "yearly bath" ( :laughing7: )....what do mean about the 33 years (of His life)? Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on April 25, 2009, 08:34:43 PM
I missed your other point that you came to, after your "yearly bath" ( :laughing7:

Sounds my post was utterly vague again. My whole post was after the bath revelation  :laughing7:

---

Jesus lived about 33 years. The exact lifespan is not important now. Although two 3's have something in it...

If LoF is earth then Jesus decended from Heaven -> He was born or perhaps when the HS impregnated Maria (in case that sounds wrong it's not meant that way...)
Jesus left when he ascended back to heaven about 33 years later.

So Jesus was  hell for 3-days = 33-years.

QuoteHe preached to the captives

Aren't those in LoF=earth captives?

 :cloud9: LOL, read my reply to your other post......we're on the same track here. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on April 25, 2009, 09:26:05 PM
we're on the same track here.

Are we on collision course?

I wanna offer you a drink but I'm so poor I only can offer some funny tasting bath water. That's for free.
I also sell dehydrated water. Half price for TM members.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:33:06 PMI also sell dehydrated water.

Dehydrated water? :LH: I've gotta remember that one! LOL!

Sounds like you don't believe me. :laughing7:

Starting next month I also ship per e-mail!


http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:52:06 PM
Sounds like you don't believe me. :laughing7:

Starting next month I also ship per e-mail!


http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

You're as nuts as I am. :cloud9:

Oh, why not?  Sign me up for next month.  Via email delivery of course.  Hopefully next month before the 31st.  I know how these internet deliveries can go sometimes!

Just got a thought about the duration of LoF.
The Bible mentions 2 harvests.
Feast of first-fruits -> Spring harvest -> 17th Nisan -> that April 10th this year.
Feast of Tabernacles -> Fall harvest -> 15th Tishri -> that's on October 13th this year.

My little theory....
At a certain point in time people get judged.
The rightous get age-during life. The rightious are the saints; the first-fruits.
The wicked get age during punishment.
My thought is that the wicked get out of LoF at Tabernacles. They get harvested.

That's a total of 186 days - 6 months
It makes extra sense when you consider (almost) all things of any significance happend on a holiday.
Birth, start of ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus was on a holyday.
Considering that getting everyone into heaven was the big aim of God why not on a holyday....?
Not sure about this but following Tabernacles there is something called the 'big/last eigth day'.
Creation took 6+1 day.
Perhaps creation itself lasts only 7 millenia.
Then the 8th day Father takes over the Kingdom for The Son and we slip simply in a timeless everlasting 8th day.
Earned myself :beerburp: after this post :-)

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:54:51 PMEarned myself :beerburp: after this post :-)

Enjoy it then. :dsunny:  Lord Jesus' birthday is on Tishri 15, so, you may be on to something.  I've debated Tabernacles or Channukah when I've included the festivals in looking at it.  I've had to ignore the feasts for a while because my plate got way too full.  Plus, I've wanted to restudy them as Bible prophecy minus the dispensational premillenialist Israel worship that's accompanied many of the writings that I've seen on them.  They're called the feasts of the Lord in Scripture rather than the feasts of Israel. 

Therefore, any apparent confusion I've detected in their meanings has had to include His foreknowledge and perhaps outright prophecy of how the last couple thousand years and the next couple thousand years are playing out.  But right now, that's much too deep for me, so I'm taking it a step at a time and jumping that swimming pool plank when I come to it in my studies and meditation time as it naturally unfolds.  Perhaps something said around here will be the trigger to get me restudying at least one of the feasts.  And the attention you just drew to Jesus' birthday and then the date on the Jewish calendar of His circumcision could be suggestive on the cutting off of the old man from God's Creation and the emergence of God's Covenant man in history, homoberyth (i.e. to replace homosapien), could indicating the soon dawning of the New Earth.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 09:52:06 PM
Sounds like you don't believe me. :laughing7:

Starting next month I also ship per e-mail!


http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

:cloud9: rofl...I've heard of "heavy" water.......

Quote from: martincisneros on April 26, 2009, 12:16:46 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:54:51 PMEarned myself :beerburp: after this post :-)

Enjoy it then. :dsunny:  Lord Jesus' birthday is on Tishri 15

Erm 15... gotta look into that again then. Don't remember the exact data that let me to conclude it was on the 10th.
Yom Kippur - Atonement day - forgiving our sins.
Only a few days diffrence. And any possible calculations I found not 100% exact.
So the question is what is more logical? A feast is used twice or a feast is only used once.
My conclusion (sofar) from my notes:
Prophesy of Jesus birth was made on Passover in Daniel.
Jesus birth on Day of atonement.
Ministry started on Sukkot.
Death on passover
Resurrection on first-fruits

Day of atonement 8 days after Jewish new year, Rosh Hashana -> again that number 8.

But as said earlier my calculations are nice but not perfect.
I calcated every date using at least 2 different methods. The dates didn't always exactly align. Then I looked up the date on the Hebrew calendar an choose the date nearest to a festival.
Always interested to finetune things.

So any proof Jesus was born on the 15th?

Does the number 186 or 6 has some special Biblical meaning?

The English names of the festivals make a little more sense to me.
I'm sorta convinced we have to string those days together to get 'the story of salvation'

Day of forgiving of sins - Birth - Monday
God lives with us - Start of ministry - Monday
Death - Passover -> blood on doorposts avoids death - Wednesday
First-fruits -> Harvest starts -> Monday
Fall harvest -> Feast of Ingathering   

A :beerburp: now and then a quick nap. And a new spamming session starts.

PS:
Note that Jesus ministry lasted 3.5 years.
A number also found in Revelation.
Revelation also states that the days should be short to save the flesh. Death of Jesus was halfway the week.

QuoteSukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles ) is not a "Jewish festival", but rather a "Hebrew" festival, for it was given to all the Israelite tribes, not just Judah.

What if I say?

First-fruits = believers = Tribe of Judah -> only a handfull of people attended to this feast -> those ruling with Christ
Fall-fruits (Tabernacle) = former unbelievers = rest of the tribes/world -> worldwide party

:drama:

 :cloud9: One of the things you might like to consider with the number 8.....they rubbed the male children with salt (salt burns like fire) on the 8th day and then they were given their name/nature. And so 8 is the number of "new beginnings" or eternal. It's also like the structure for DNA.

If you cross your arms and take someone's hands, it forms a "figure 8". God told one of the patriarchs to do this in giving a blessing. It's also tied in with the "fretwork" on the tops of the pillars and the "crown" type details on the mercy seat. So no wonder the scriptures, to he that overcometh to be made a pillar and to be given a crown.

Every little detail in there is like a hidden-in-plain-sight "code", a repeating of His will and messages to His sons, over and over again. Blessings....

Some information on a foremost source of Jewish Mysticism:

The Zohar (Hebrew: זֹהַר,‎  lit. Splendor or, Radiance) is widely considered the most important work of Kabbalah, or Jewish mysticism. It is a mystical commentary on the Torah (the five books of Moses), written in medieval Aramaic...The Zohar is not one book, but a group of books; these books include scriptural interpretations as well as material on theosophic theology, mythical cosmogony, and mystical psychology.

Published in the mid-13th Century (1270 AD?) by Moses de Leon who's wife claimed he wrote it.  While said to have been passed down orally from such persons as Abraham, Moses, and Elijah, it nevertheless shows the influence of rediscovered Greek writings in the middle Medieval period by borrowings from Greek mystical philosophy.  While a child of its time, it sould be understood many much more ancient commentaries and mystical writings are drawn on.

In "Zohar," an Encyclopaedia Judaica article written by the late Professor Gershom Scholem (Hebrew University of Jerusalem) his studies concluded that the author of the Zohar "develops tendencies which appeared first in the writings of the circle of the Gnostics in Castile in the middle of the 13th century."

online version:  https://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/zohar

Michael Berg (born June 29, 1973) is an ordained Rabbi, Kabbalah scholar, and noted spiritual leader. He edited the first unabridged English translation of The Zohar (23 vols.).

Sperling, Harry and Maurice Simon, eds. The Zohar (5 vols.). London: Soncino Press, . (The only complete English translation)

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:54:51 PM
My thought is that the wicked get out of LoF at Tabernacles. They get harvested.

That's a total of 186 days - 6 months
It makes extra sense when you consider (almost) all things of any significance happend on a holiday.
Birth, start of ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus was on a holyday.
Considering that getting everyone into heaven was the big aim of God why not on a holyday....?

I figured out Jesus was born on: Yom Kippur = Day of atonement
Martin figured out Jesus was born on: Feast of Tabernacles

So I started to look for a little extra proof.
Yom Kippur is 8 days after the Jewish new year.
8 days after the start of the 8 day festival Tabernacles is Simchat.
My own little theory tells me each feast only happens once in the big masterplan. So it can't be Tabernacles. 100% guesswork. I fully admit that.

Anyway both versions are only a few days apart. About nine month before birth is getting pregnant. Counting back and we get..... suprise....another feast.  Hanukkah - Festival of Lights. (8 days later Simchat)
Again a nice match! (btw such things draw me closer to believing)
A bit problematic is that the Jews are real party animals and that month is almost a string of festivals.
Jesus is many things including light of the world. Hanukkah is a 7 day festival. Each day a extra candle is lit. Jesus is born on the day of the first candle. (makes me think of the candles in Revelation)
So lets fix this date as a starting point for the 9 months.
Then we immediately bump into a little problem. How long does the perfect pregnancy exactly last? I think 40 weeks. 280 days. I guess the 28 rings a bell for women and moon watchers :-)
Lets see what fits.
I use Excel to calculate dates. But it doesn't accept BC years. So calculations can be off 1 day due to a leap year.
Pregnant December 6th 6BC -> Festival of lights
+280 days
September 12th 5BC -> 1 day after Yom Kippur or 5 days before Tabernacle.

So Yom Kippur seems the closest match.
BTW: 70 weeks of Daniel and start of His ministry also are on Yom Kippur.

 :cloud9: I love that you're digging into the festivals, WW. As a new believer, the Lord led me to look up the names of people, places and things, to cement my faith. I saw just from that, that there was no way man had tampered that much with the book (one of my fears/oppositions to it). As IF......some people had the forethought to name their kids about significant things they would grow up to do/become.  :winkgrin: It just wasn't HUMANLY possible. I also saw from that, that He was in control, but that's another story.

Then He led me to study the feasts, finally the tabernacle. The amazing thing is; ALL these things I've named are interrelated. The feasts you are studying, are actually  patterned in the Tabernacle as well, and the principles of them are in the names of people, places and things.

Your comment about 280 days. That's 28 (moons) times 10. Ten is the number of completion. And I could break down 28 as two 10's and an 8. It's also four 7's; 4 (number of the world/earth) times 7 (number of His rest/peace).

The Lord gave me a dream/vision several years ago. It wasn't about me, but about the sons of God being perfected in the earth. I saw myself walking on a red earth path up a hill. I looked up and saw the moon thru the bare trees in the darkness of the night. It was almost full.

Just then the Lord spoke to me about the law being synonymous with the moon, and that when the fullness of the moon came, it was as the law being fulfilled in us spiritually, the same way it was fulfilled in Jesus, who became a son by the things that He suffered. It would be the same as being filled with His love (full moon).

Then the scene changed and I was not walking on a red earth path, but on a red carpet aisle in a church somewhere. At the front of it, in front of the pulpit, was a woman in a wheelchair. I walked up to her in the authority of the Spirit of God that the sons of God will walk in, did not touch her, but spoke loudly in the authority, "BE HEALED!"
Immediately, she jumped up and started screaming, crying, and praising God.

We are on the threshold of the greatest harvest the world has ever seen. There won't be one son of God walking the earth, but a many-membered body of HIM encased in flesh, perfected in His love, and empowered from on high, ie. from the Most High God. Saviors are about to arise on Mt. Zion (the highest peak), having walked in the red earth of man for a season, being perfected, that they might walk in the fullness of the Spirit without measure, like their elder brother did, the forerunner of them THAT GO BEYOND THE VEIL. Come Lord Jesus, come. Blessings...

PS to Reformer; interesting about the Zohar. I've never read it, but I've heard about it. I think it's interesting that when the oldest and most revered Kabbalah teacher died a couple of years ago in Israel, he left behind notes that said his studies had found that Yeshua was the Messiah. It caused quite a stir in the Jewish community. Just goes to show you He is bringing them in through all the gates. Blessings....

Quote from: martincisneros on April 26, 2009, 12:16:46 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:54:51 PM
Therefore, any apparent confusion I've detected in their meanings has had to include His foreknowledge and perhaps outright prophecy of how the last couple thousand years and the next couple thousand years are playing out.  But right now, that's much too deep for me, so I'm taking it a step at a time and jumping that swimming pool plank when I come to it in my studies and meditation time as it naturally unfolds.

Often study doesn't seem to work. Then the next day when doing something totally unrelated something pops into your mind. A key that unlocks part of the mystery.

Right now I'm digging. I find lots of useless junk. Lots of repeating what I already know. But this afternoon I found something interesting. Possibly useful in this matter. The Mazzaroth. The zodiac found in the Temple floor.
Some are obvious but most I never knew the Biblical meaning of.
Virgo: Virgin birth (Virga means branch)
Libra: Jesus payed the price
Scorpio: Jesus crushed his head (reference to Edens snake?)
Sagittarius: Jesus is God in human form (half horse half human starsign)
Capricorn: Jesus was cut off (I don't understand that one.
Aquaris: Jesus the living water
Pisces: Curch
Aries: Jesus the Lamb
Taurus: Jesus the leader
Gemeni/Twins: Jesus is Servant and King
Cancer: Jesus is our hiding place. -> Cancer means to encirle -> Revelation...camp of Saints encircled...?
Leo: Jesus is King of kings.

Now the part I'm looking at.
Every date and so every feast falls under a certain starsign.
Aries, Pices, Auqarius. And the other half of the year Leo and Virgo.
6 month. Between the groups.
Now I'm just starring at the zodiac to find some hints for the topic of this thread - Hell

A quote from Ray Smith. Very obvious really. You just has to come to mind. (didn't for me)
If there are first-fruits there are at least also 2nd fruits.

So my thought build on the thought of Ray:
ETs seem to agree first-fruits are the believers that go to heaven. The people the people that are 'ready' when Jesus returns. The people that are raptured. etc

But where do the 2nd fruits come from? All besides the saints are in hell forever.
The only place where Jesus can harvest is in hell/LoF

 :cloud9: I think it was J. Preston Eby who wrote a series decades ago, on the truth hidden in the TRUE Zodiac, the constellations, called "The Heaven's Declare". He has a site on Sigler.org's list of Kingdom ministers; it might be posted on there, I don't know. Anyway, all the "signs" in the heavens point to Christ. Capricorn, I think it's a goat, isn't it? That would be Him as the scapegoat. Blessings...

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2009, 06:05:14 PM
A quote from Ray Smith. Very obvious really. You just has to come to mind. (didn't for me)
If there are first-fruits there are at least also 2nd fruits.

So my thought build on the thought of Ray:
ETs seem to agree first-fruits are the believers that go to heaven. The people the people that are 'ready' when Jesus returns. The people that are raptured. etc

But where do the 2nd fruits come from? All besides the saints are in hell forever.
The only place where Jesus can harvest is in hell/LoF

:cloud9: Firstfruits is in itself a harvest term. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection. He was the forerunner (means first) of those that go beyond the veil. That means if one went in as a forerunner, others must follow.

He had the priests making the sign of the cross for thousands of years before Christ, and they didn't even know it. The wave offering of the priests was a firstfruits offering of grain. They waved in back and forth, raising it up over their heads. This was the horizontal motion of making a cross. There was was also a heave offering, a shoulder of the sacrificed beast raised straight up. This was the upright vertical motion of making a cross symbol.

It's all interrelated. The problem with the ETer's views on being "raised" is that they don't understand that in Noah's day only the wicked were removed from the earth. The righteous were RAISED up above the judgment to the flesh, in the ark. He is our ark of the covenant, and we run into Him as our covering, and are raised up above the death and destruction.

Noah was told to build an ark when he was 600, ie. the end of all flesh came before Him then. It's now 6000 years, and the end of all flesh is coming before Him again, only this time He's not destroying sinful flesh with water, but with the fire of the Holy Ghost, the fire that fell on the day of Pentecost. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 05:23:30 PM
:cloud9: I love that you're digging into the festivals, WW. As a new believer, the Lord led me to look up the names of people, places and things, to cement my faith.

If you still have that list I really would like to see it!

QuoteI saw just from that, that there was no way man had tampered that much with the book (one of my fears/oppositions to it).

Everyone can write a book. Maybe even like the Bible. But all kinda things make the story so complex that such things prove me it can't be of human origin....

QuoteThen He led me to study the feasts, finally the tabernacle. The amazing thing is; ALL these things I've named are interrelated. The feasts you are studying, are actually  patterned in the Tabernacle as well, and the principles of them are in the names of people, places and things.

I'm very sure they are interrelated. But it's so complex. I think it would help a great deal if I could read Hebrew.
Now I have to look up every word for an hidden meaning.

Just found this one minutes ago. The first 5 books by Moses are called Torah. In paleo-Hebrew (example of that is my avatar) the word Torah is only 4 symbols.
The whole alphabet has a meaning attached to each letter.
Now look at the meaning of the 4 letters that spell Torah
Cross, Nail, The Highest/A man, to reveal
Ain't that beautiful?

The Lord gave me a dream/vision several years ago. It wasn't about me, but about the sons of God being perfected in the earth. I saw myself walking on a red earth path up a hill. I looked up and saw the moon thru the bare trees in the darkness of the night. It was almost full.

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 05:23:30 PM
PS to Reformer; interesting about the Zohar. I've never read it, but I've heard about it. I think it's interesting that when the oldest and most revered Kabbalah teacher died a couple of years ago in Israel, he left behind notes that said his studies had found that Yeshua was the Messiah. It caused quite a stir in the Jewish community. Just goes to show you He is bringing them in through all the gates. Blessings....

I downloaded the book too. Didn't have time to read it.
About the Jews believing in Christ. It struck me many times what they write about Him.
Sites full of Hebrew symbols, but written in English, that discus teh meaning of the feasts, customs etc etc
They quite often mention Jesus with the highest respect. Often calling Him saviour.
That always puzzeled me.
There almost seems to be some sort of hybrid Jewish Christian religion.... :dontknow:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 06:06:41 PM
:cloud9: I think it was J. Preston Eby who wrote a series decades ago, on the truth hidden in the TRUE Zodiac, the constellations, called "The Heaven's Declare". He has a site on Sigler.org's list of Kingdom ministers; it might be posted on there, I don't know.

Think I did that? Or I fothe site after someone mentioned it. Anyway I downloaded and printed the book. To longwinded. Couldn't keep my attention. Perhaps now, with another mindset....

QuoteAnyway, all the "signs" in the heavens point to Christ. Capricorn, I think it's a goat, isn't it? That would be Him as the scapegoat. Blessings...

A ram laying down. Ram=male sheep.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2009, 06:31:37 PM
.
About the Jews believing in Christ. It struck me many times what they write about Him.
Sites full of Hebrew symbols, but written in English, that discuss the meaning of the feasts, customs etc etc
They quite often mention Jesus with the highest respect. Often calling Him saviour.
That always puzzled me.
There almost seems to be some sort of hybrid Jewish Christian religion.... :dontknow:

:cloud9: Yep, that's a good description. They're Messianic Jews, ie. Jews that believe Yeshua was the awaited Messiah, and they read the NT and count it as inspired scripture. I didn't know why when He started it, but He had me studying the Word in essence from more of a Messianic mindset, probably 5-7 years before I even knew there was such a thing as Messianics.

I was ostracized back then from nearly every church I tried to attend for my insistence that the OT feasts and tabernacle should be studied, and my insistence that the rapture doctrine was a lie. These two things made me stick out like a sore heretic thumb   :laughing7: , and I was shown the left foot of fellowship or "marked" in some cases before I ever entered the door, as a heretic, false prophet, uncovered woman, or worse, ect. You name it, I've been called it.  :mshock:

I pointed out to them (when I got the chance), that the first person to see the RISEN Christ, was a WOMAN from whom had been cast SEVEN devils. ie. soul/woman cleansed from the fullness (7 means fullness regardless of what it is) of the darkness of the flesh. Somehow that didn't have quite the effect on them that I would have liked.  :mblush: :winkgrin: Whatever, God is to be praised.  :bigGrin: Blessings.....

Card and WW, I believe this from Thomas Kissinger goes along well with the great points you two are making and with your discussion of the feasts, etc., their importance to us today as NT believers.

This is from someone I really respect.  I believe he has a good understanding of several important things...rightly dividing the Word by taking scripture in context, not pulling out OT passages relating to the Old Covenant and Israel and trying to make them literally universally apply to NC believers today, even when it's obvious who is being spoken to in the passage, i.e., "And to the house of Jacob" .... and an understanding of God's future workings with the nation of Israel, recognizing their place (Romans 11:18,19).  What he does see and understand, and use appropriately, are the types and shadows of the better things to come, that are brought about through Jesus to us of the nations that are grafted in and given the ministry of conciliation..."until the time of the Gentiles has come in, so all Israel shall be saved".

He says "The three feasts mentioned here represent the three times that WE must appear before the Lord. Remember...THESE ARE APPOINTED TIMES! We must appear before the Lord in justification (the salvation of our spirit), sanctification (the salvation of our soul), and glorification (the salvation of our body). These feasts are also known as: PASSOVER, PENTECOST, AND TABERNACLES. Knowing this will help us to rightly divide God's Word. THIS IS WHY PAUL STATED IN CERTAIN PLACES THAT WE WERE ALREADY RAISED WITH CHRIST IN NEWNESS OF LIFE (JUSTIFICATION), BUT IN OTHER PLACES HE SAID HE WAS WAITING FOR THE RESURRECTION (ANASTASIS) - THE REDEMPTION OF HIS BODY! We must look at each passage and rightly divide it according to whether Paul was speaking of justification, sanctification, or glorification. The error that many make is that they try to make every Scripture they read pertain to the now. When we do this we have left the proper method of interpreting the Scriptures, and we have entered the arena of forcing the Scriptures to line up with our own ideas. Understanding appointed times will make us free to know the truth!"

God's blessing, you two are doing some interesting study here  :thumbsup:.

Jabcat,

Can you point me to a site or book with work of Thomas Kissinger?
Kissinger...watergate...living water....  :Chinscratch:

---

I'm not trying or promoting a rapture discussion. That said here is how the ancient Jewish wedding customs where.

When a couple wanted to marry the man went to the house of the girls father.
=> Jesus came to earth (house) of the bride (believers) father (God?)

He gave a wedding gift to the father of the girl. (he paid)
=> Jesus paid for our sins.

When the father accepted the gift the clock started ticking.
=> God accepted the payment of Jesus.

The groom went to his fathers home and started preparing a bridal chamber.
=> Jesus went home to and started preparing rooms in the mansion with many rooms.

When the father of the man was satisfied with the bridal room he gave his permission. Usually that took 1-2 years.
=> Jesus has many brides so it takes Him 2000 years :-)

The man gathers his friends and goes to the womans home. At the most unespected (nightly hour. (element of suprise)
=> Jesus and his angels are coming to earth.

When they are near the home of the woman the man blows a horn.
=> Revelations trumpets?

The man stops now and his friends going to 'steal'  the bride and bring her to the man.
=> Comes as a thief in the night at an unespected hour.
=> Rapture.... sorry I had to mention it...

The couple was locked up in the bridal room for 7 days. During this time the father made announcements and a wedding celebration
=> 7 years of tribulation.
=> Hell?

Bride and groom come out of the chamber and the wedding supper starts.
=> Jesus and the believers are bride and groom.
=> But who are the guests?
=> The people that came out of LoF.......?

:2c:

http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/  I ordered one of his books off his site...very good UR material...also, if you sign up, he will send a little newsletter to you a couple times a month...that's where the above info I posted came from...

He has 4 books.
What book you quoted from?

it was from one of the little newsletters he sends out to subscribers...on his site, there are dates listed along the left hand side.  I'm thinking these may be (at least part of) what he sends out in email, so they can be read on his site?  Not sure, but worth a check...the one I quoted from was in the past couple of weeks, titled "Appointed Times"

The Glory Of God And The Honor Of Kings
The printed copy of this website - only $19.95!

Must be that one then.

---

Noble Berean 1 and 2 can be freely downloaded as a .pdf

I think it was "Glory of God..Honor" that I ordered...my mother-in-law has it right now, so not positive.

There are 70 49 year Jubelees.

Jubelee #1 starts: 1367BC When isreal entered Caan
Jubelee #30: Jesus died exactly at half of this Jubelee.
Jubelee #70 starts: 2015

Daniel 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

---

That's just one way looking at it.
Can't remember the exact details but are there also 50 year jubelees?
Then of course 1 day is as a 1000 years would set the end date at 2027 or 2030

Enough to choose from :bgdance:

Quote from: jabcat on April 26, 2009, 08:28:31 PM

He says "The three feasts mentioned here represent the three times that WE must appear before the Lord. Remember...THESE ARE APPOINTED TIMES! We must appear before the Lord in justification (the salvation of our spirit), sanctification (the salvation of our soul), and glorification (the salvation of our body). These feasts are also known as: PASSOVER, PENTECOST, AND TABERNACLES. Knowing this will help us to rightly divide God's Word. THIS IS WHY PAUL STATED IN CERTAIN PLACES THAT WE WERE ALREADY RAISED WITH CHRIST IN NEWNESS OF LIFE (JUSTIFICATION), BUT IN OTHER PLACES HE SAID HE WAS WAITING FOR THE RESURRECTION (ANASTASIS) - THE REDEMPTION OF HIS BODY! We must look at each passage and rightly divide it according to whether Paul was speaking of justification, sanctification, or glorification. The error that many make is that they try to make every Scripture they read pertain to the now. When we do this we have left the proper method of interpreting the Scriptures, and we have entered the arena of forcing the Scriptures to line up with our own ideas. Understanding appointed times will make us free to know the truth!"

:cloud9: AMEN, Jabcat. If you look at my incomplete list of 3's under the Tabernacle sticky thread, all of those represent scriptures, whose understanding is gleaned and aided by understanding this principle, because the 3 feasts correlate to the 3 compartments of the Tabernacle. The Lord opened my eyes to this in the first year of my walk.

There are many more in there that fit the 3 pattern, some are discussing only 2 of the 3 pattern compartments, and some are discussing only 1 of the compartments. Knowing the characteristics of the compartments and what they represent, make if possible to virtually place everything within those compartments, INCLUDING the natural creation witness.

It's also a 'clock" or time line, and it can be used (if He opens your eyes to it) to understand what is happening with those in the outer court realm (this includes the "unsaved" ones), as a mirror image (ie. reversed, soul ruling over spirit) of what He is doing in the heart of the spiritual priesthood (inner court realm). The pattern He created is so intricate, there is no way anyone but God could have created it, and because that pattern is still functioning perfectly, like a clock keeping time, I personally see no way any rational person reviewing the facts could not come to the same conclusion we have; GOD IS ALIVE AND HE HAS A SON NAMED JESUS CHRIST. Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2009, 08:53:33 PM
Jabcat,

Can you point me to a site or book with work of Thomas Kissinger?
Kissinger...watergate...living water....  :Chinscratch:

---

I'm not trying or promoting a rapture discussion. That said here is how the ancient Jewish wedding customs where.

When a couple wanted to marry the man went to the house of the girls father.
=> Jesus came to earth (house) of the bride (believers) father (God?)

He gave a wedding gift to the father of the girl. (he paid)
=> Jesus paid for our sins.

When the father accepted the gift the clock started ticking.
=> God accepted the payment of Jesus.

The groom went to his fathers home and started preparing a bridal chamber.
=> Jesus went home to and started preparing rooms in the mansion with many rooms.

When the father of the man was satisfied with the bridal room he gave his permission. Usually that took 1-2 years.
=> Jesus has many brides so it takes Him 2000 years :-)

The man gathers his friends and goes to the womans home. At the most unespected (nightly hour. (element of suprise)
=> Jesus and his angels are coming to earth.

When they are near the home of the woman the man blows a horn.
=> Revelations trumpets?

The man stops now and his friends going to 'steal'  the bride and bring her to the man.
=> Comes as a thief in the night at an unespected hour.
=> Rapture.... sorry I had to mention it...

The couple was locked up in the bridal room for 7 days. During this time the father made announcements and a wedding celebration
=> 7 years of tribulation.
=> Hell?

Bride and groom come out of the chamber and the wedding supper starts.
=> Jesus and the believers are bride and groom.
=> But who are the guests?
=> The people that came out of LoF.......?

:2c:

:cloud9: I love the wedding parallels, too. He gave me something beautiful once as a vision in prayer, about this. I saw what I was told was linen, like in a strip and it swirled around the right and left forearms of a couple, joining them together. They wore this same white linen, ie. linen speaks of the righteousness of the saints, which is HIS Spirit.

Then the linen from their arms went up and began to swirl over their heads. It formed a tree shape, and I heard a Hebrew word, sounds like "huptah", can't remember the spelling; I looked it up.

Anyway, that word was a wedding canopy. A canopy of a tree is as a covering. His Spirit/righteousness is our covering. The tree of life is of it's very design and nature, a WEDDING CANOPY, intended to join soul/woman and spirit/man as one back into Him.
Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 10:32:19 PM
The pattern He created is so intricate, there is no way anyone but God could have created it, and because that pattern is still functioning perfectly, like a clock keeping time, I personally see no way any rational person reviewing the facts could not come to the same conclusion we have; GOD IS ALIVE AND HE HAS A SON NAMED JESUS CHRIST. Blessings....

Amen, so be it!  Good for my faith today, thanks Card.

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 06:20:21 AM
:cloud9: One of the things you might like to consider with the number 8.....they rubbed the male children with salt (salt burns like fire) on the 8th day and then they were given their name/nature. And so 8 is the number of "new beginnings" or eternal. It's also like the structure for DNA.

If you cross your arms and take someone's hands, it forms a "figure 8". God told one of the patriarchs to do this in giving a blessing. It's also tied in with the "fretwork" on the tops of the pillars and the "crown" type details on the mercy seat. So no wonder the scriptures, to he that overcometh to be made a pillar and to be given a crown.

Every little detail in there is like a hidden-in-plain-sight "code", a repeating of His will and messages to His sons, over and over again. Blessings....

They also circumcised the boys on the 8th day after birth.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 26, 2009, 12:13:36 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:54:51 PM
My thought is that the wicked get out of LoF at Tabernacles. They get harvested.

That's a total of 186 days - 6 months
It makes extra sense when you consider (almost) all things of any significance happend on a holiday.
Birth, start of ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus was on a holyday.
Considering that getting everyone into heaven was the big aim of God why not on a holyday....?

I figured out Jesus was born on: Yom Kippur = Day of atonement
Martin figured out Jesus was born on: Feast of Tabernacles

So I started to look for a little extra proof.
Yom Kippur is 8 days after the Jewish new year.
8 days after the start of the 8 day festival Tabernacles is Simchat.
My own little theory tells me each feast only happens once in the big masterplan. So it can't be Tabernacles. 100% guesswork. I fully admit that.

Anyway both versions are only a few days apart. About nine month before birth is getting pregnant. Counting back and we get..... suprise....another feast.  Hanukkah - Festival of Lights. (8 days later Simchat)
Again a nice match! (btw such things draw me closer to believing)
A bit problematic is that the Jews are real party animals and that month is almost a string of festivals.
Jesus is many things including light of the world. Hanukkah is a 7 day festival. Each day a extra candle is lit. Jesus is born on the day of the first candle. (makes me think of the candles in Revelation)
So lets fix this date as a starting point for the 9 months.
Then we immediately bump into a little problem. How long does the perfect pregnancy exactly last? I think 40 weeks. 280 days. I guess the 28 rings a bell for women and moon watchers :-)
Lets see what fits.
I use Excel to calculate dates. But it doesn't accept BC years. So calculations can be off 1 day due to a leap year.
Pregnant December 6th 6BC -> Festival of lights
+280 days
September 12th 5BC -> 1 day after Yom Kippur or 5 days before Tabernacle.

So Yom Kippur seems the closest match.
BTW: 70 weeks of Daniel and start of His ministry also are on Yom Kippur.

You came to the same conclusion as the late Ernest L. Martin, PhD (ASK). He also believed Christ's birth was on Yom Kippur; Sept. 11th!

Quote from: Doc on April 27, 2009, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2009, 06:20:21 AM
:cloud9: One of the things you might like to consider with the number 8.....they rubbed the male children with salt (salt burns like fire) on the 8th day and then they were given their name/nature. And so 8 is the number of "new beginnings" or eternal. It's also like the structure for DNA.

If you cross your arms and take someone's hands, it forms a "figure 8". God told one of the patriarchs to do this in giving a blessing. It's also tied in with the "fretwork" on the tops of the pillars and the "crown" type details on the mercy seat. So no wonder the scriptures, to he that overcometh to be made a pillar and to be given a crown.

Every little detail in there is like a hidden-in-plain-sight "code", a repeating of His will and messages to His sons, over and over again. Blessings....

They also circumcised the boys on the 8th day after birth.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: