Matthew 5:
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Young's Literal Translation - Matthew 5
21'Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I — I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire. 23'If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee, 24leave there thy gift before the altar, and go — first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift. 25'Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast, 26verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Does anyone else see the contradiction here?
Burn in Hell, but you won't get out until you have paid the last penny?
If "Hell" is forever, how could this be?
I am assuming 'court' is God's judgement of us?
Seems like someone made a mistake or changed some things, in this translation.
Young's translation seems to make more sense, though.
Your thoughts?
D.
we have 'debts',reconciliation,fools-which represent the 'despised' and the'wrath'of man which does not work the will of God....
.the only remedy for 'debt' for those who are unable to pay.....is forgiveness..... .
The LAST PENNY-the one talent...'hard hearted/hard Master' accused of harvesting where he did not sow...and gathering[reconciliation]where he has not scattered seed..
God sowed forgiveness of all the sins of the world through Jesus Christ[seed]in order to gather all in through that same seed[reconciliation]
the chaff is 'seperated' at the threshing floor....and'burned'
those'accusing' and "beating'..as the wicked servant class......their .hypocrisy will be exposed and their'chaff' burned in the fire.
Agreeing with your adversary quickly on the way to the judge.Mercy/Grace through Christ for ALL, or the law with it's penalties?
His pleasure is to magnify His'WORD"
what you sow ye shall reap..
what's more righteous in God's sight?Lord!Be merciful to me a'sinner'orLord.I am so glad I am not like this guy over here?I do thus and thus..etc. Any statusofbeing
'right'in front of Him.....is based on Christ fulfilling the Law and taking away all the sin of the world.A GREAT WORK OF GRACE DONE BY GOD THROUGH HIS SON
We are healedby His stripes..to be presented without spot or blemish...or we are putting stripes on the back for those He died for...and crucifying Him allover again
..and many are double-crossed in this world! Taste Grace and shrink back tothe law...and become enemies of the cross with their "gospel."
WE shallALL BE CHANGED!the worst "sinners" out there shall be changed..and put on incorruption!!!!!
JUSTICE-since sin entered through one man...so,too,through one man...Mercy-because of His great love ye sons of men are not consumed,and Faithfullness-Ihave
lovedyou with an ever-lasting love. :2c:
Quote from: Dandelion on May 18, 2018, 11:17:21 AM
Matthew 5:
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Young's Literal Translation - Matthew 5
21'Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I — I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire. 23'If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee, 24leave there thy gift before the altar, and go — first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift. 25'Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast, 26verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
Does anyone else see the contradiction here?
Burn in Hell, but you won't get out until you have paid the last penny?
If "Hell" is forever, how could this be?
I am assuming 'court' is God's judgement of us?
Seems like someone made a mistake or changed some things, in this translation.
Young's translation seems to make more sense, though.
Your thoughts?
D.
I totally agree! What a contradiction! :thumbsup: :Chinscratch: ...We really could think it would be a genuine "a-ha!" moment when someone reads that!
Something else I noticed just now - "
25'Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him[/u], that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may (not) deliver thee to the officer, and to prison/gehenna fire thou mayest (not) be cast... (wondering if the verses indeed are speaking of 'afterlife' (after resurrection) experience..)
But if someone
is cast to gehenna fire (lake of fire?/the refiner's crucible) they will not come out
until they've paid the last penny.. And this is reminding me of in 2 Thess? it says "may your spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless-without defect at (or to) the coming of the Lord"
The idea of
without defect equating, I'm wondering, to
the last penny?
Yep, very good find - isolating that for inspection, while not negating relevant context. I like it! Gives a nice clear view of the issue! :thumbsup:
Amen Sheila.. Especially,
Quote from: sheila on May 18, 2018, 05:27:23 PM
what's more righteous in God's sight?Lord!Be merciful to me a'sinner'orLord.I am so glad I am not like this guy over here?
Especially when God does the choosing! Believers who believe they have somehow earned salvation and redemption can be prone to thinking they are all that! (Righteous and wonderful and others are not. Which I think we have all learned is nothing but an offensive odor unto God (for He says that - idk where..
(https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=GUwAW4SmIeHgjwTRk6foDA&q=verse+stench+in+my+nostrils+bible&oq=verse+stench+in+my+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i22i29i30k1l6.1499.12436.0.15772.27.25.1.0.0.0.207.2137.20j3j1.25.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.2230.6..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j0i13i5i30k1j33i21k1.93.Jfz8humvJxY (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=GUwAW4SmIeHgjwTRk6foDA&q=verse+stench+in+my+nostrils+bible&oq=verse+stench+in+my+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i22i29i30k1l6.1499.12436.0.15772.27.25.1.0.0.0.207.2137.20j3j1.25.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.26.2230.6..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j0i13i5i30k1j33i21k1.93.Jfz8humvJxY))
Two things, to me, speak strongly - He as Father.. (corrective not vengeful) and He chooses for all, when they repent.. Which to me, means all "with defect" before the Father "chooses" are unable, in natural, to seek Him. Are naturally unable to seek Him (until
He chooses, and turns them).
Speculation of course - but it makes me think it's all the same when it comes to turning, whether one repents/ is turned, during this lifetime, or later, there's weeping, likely some gnashing of teeth, and even some experience of outer darkness.. and then (?) those who do not agree with the 'opponent' quickly will experience (or go to?) gehenna fire until they have paid the last penny they owe.. until radiantly purified by the Spirit of He who is a consuming/purifying fire.. Purity consuming impurity, and Perfection eradicating imperfection/flaw/defect. Separating the wheat from the chaff.. Feels like one is being beaten (like wheat.. been there! :Peace2: ) :2c:
I love that you brought up this D , and was waiting for responses .
They are great responses :dsunny:
I have considered the penny as the workers days wage . If Adam earned a wage 930years was his DAY and by the sweat of his brow did he earn a living bearing great heat , workers of the vineyard ...
Our 70 years is like the last hour coming in to the DAY OF THE LORD ,The Lord does what He wants with his own things , How can those grumble and complain and be adversaries to us that get to come in the last hour of trial that comes upon the whole world ? What if it is eternal Life that is the days pay /wage ?.. those that are in prison are those whom are kept in the prison , the cage of every hateful and unclean bird of Babylon still ?.
the wages of sin is death , but the penny / denarius /talent is the days pay and made equal to those before us ?An Egyptian talent was 80 librae. The talent as a unit of value is mentioned in the New Testament in Jesus' parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30). This parable is the origin of the use of the word "talent" to mean "gift or skill" Denarius
(containing ten ), Authorized Version "penny," ( Matthew 18:28 ; Matthew 20:2 Matthew 20:9 Matthew 20:13 ) a Roman silver coin in the time of our Saviour and the Apostles, worth about 15 cents. It took its name from its being first equal to ten "asses," a number afterwards increased to sixteen. It was the principal silver coin of the Roman commonwealth. From the parable of the laborers in the vineyard it would seem that a denarius was then the ordinary pay for a days labor. ( Matthew 20:2 Matthew 20:4 Matthew 20:7 Matthew 20:9 Matthew 20:10 Matthew 20:13 )
Matthew 20
Weymouth New Testament
"'These who came last have done only one hour's work, and you have put them on a level with us who have worked the whole day and have borne the scorching heat.'
10 Now when the first came, they supposed they would get more, but each of them also received a denarius.
11 And when they received it, they grumbled at the owner of the estate,
12 Saying, These [men] who came last worked no more than an hour, and yet you have made them rank with us who have borne the burden and the [c]scorching heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, Friend, I am doing you no injustice. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this man hired last the same as I give to you.
15 Am I not permitted to do what I choose with what is mine? [Or do you begrudge my being generous?] Is your eye evil because I am good?
16 So those who [now] are last will be first [then], and those who [now] are first will be last [then]. [d]For many are called, but few chosen.
World English Bible
saying, 'These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!'
Young's Literal Translation
that These, the last, wrought one hour, and thou didst make them equal to us, who were bearing the burden of the day -- and the heat.
I do believe the HOLY SPIRIT & FIRE work together for the good , burn off the dross and keep the pure holy before God
All works are tried in the fire of Gods consuming of what is Holy and what is profane
That taking on the nature of what is consumed /evil and not consumed /good in the using ....
:2c:
When Jesus spoke of Gehenna and the fire, He was speaking of the same things He warned of in His discourse on cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye - better to "enter life" [be born lame/blind] than to be whole and sin to such a degree that you risked arrest, trial and punishment, maybe even execution. Execution as a criminal involved having your body burned in the town dump of Gehenna, a place in the real world.
Being thrown into prison to work off your debt was just another such possible outcome.
Both have been hijacked by the Damnationists and rolled into Hell theology.
Galatians 3:13-15 GOD'S WORD Translation (GW)
13 Christ paid the price to free us from the curse that the laws in Moses' Teachings bring by becoming cursed instead of us. Scripture says, "Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed." 14 Christ paid the price so that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to all the people of the world through Jesus Christ and we would receive the promised Spirit through faith.
The Relationship between Law and Promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me use an example from everyday life. No one can cancel a person's will or add conditions to it once that will is put into effect.
You Are God's Children
4 Let me explain further. As long as an heir is a child, he is no better off than a slave, even though he owns everything. 2 He is placed under the control of guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 It was the same way with us. When we were children, we were slaves to the principles of this world. 4 But when the right time came, God sent his Son into the world. A woman gave birth to him, and he came under the control of the laws given to Moses. 5 God sent him to pay for the freedom of those who were controlled by these laws so that we would be adopted as his children. 6 Because you are God's children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into us to call out, "Abba![a] Father!" 7 So you are no longer slaves but God's children. Since you are God's children, God has also made you heirs.
We do have debts, but Jesus paid them.
Amen! Lately I've been thinking about the word "redemption" and back 'home' in New England, when you bring in your recycled plastic.. paper and what not, it's called redemption.. Then was reading in 2 thessalonians where Paul wrote something like "I pray your whole body and soul/psyche and spirit/breath? be preserved blameless.." .. So somehow in my head came the idea that we are being recycled.. I don't know if that makes any sense.. :laughing7:
Redemption.. like being an endentured slave.. working off my debt.. And Father and Jesus paid it! And my debt is cancelled. At which point an endentured slave, or one with a huge debt, now paid, would sigh a big sigh of relief! And how happy and "thank full" one would be! :thumbsup:
AMEN , and to be like Jesus was must also learn to forgive the debts also and can be done by the Holy Spirit working in us ...
John 20 Berean Study Bible
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."
I wonder if this is a show mercy and you will be shown mercy from God also , more faith in God with truth and grace to grow in .. :2c:
James 2 A Warning against Favoritism
...12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom.
13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?...
Thank you, everyone!
Lots of good ideas and thoughts presented!
D.
Yeshua was a Jew. Boy did it hit the fan when I said that in another Christian chat forum.
Anyway, he taught in the temple. He knew the Torah. Would he have taught of a place that is not in the Torah? A fire and brimstone hell fire punishment?
:dontknow:
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 04, 2018, 09:06:35 PM
Yeshua was a Jew. Boy did it hit the fan when I said that in another Christian chat forum.
Anyway, he taught in the temple. He knew the Torah. Would he have taught of a place that is not in the Torah? A fire and brimstone hell fire punishment?
:dontknow:
Nope! As a matter of fact I just read John the Baptist's words - which particularly struck me - how he said to the Sadducees and Pharisees "who tole you to flee from the coming Gehenna judgment?!" And I though what "judgment" did he mean? One long ages in the future or after death? Or the one of 70 A.D.? ...Surely, I thought, the one "coming" in 70 A.D... "fiery judgment"/gehenna judgment.. If they didn't realize it in 70 A.D. they will (imo) upon Judgment 'Day' (which shadow of, I believe, is Day of Atonement [DOA for the doa/2nd resurrection/the still dead in their sins/upon arrival to that day.. i.e dead on arrival.. But by end of the 'day' - no humans in LOF? :2c:
:2c: I'd like to share a little bit more of my thoughts on His words about this.The law was written for the lawless...that selfish,prideful
destructive/vindictive nature of the corrupt/wicked one..that is opposed to loving God and your fellowman as yourself.Our love nature
and corrupt image are adversarial. The LAW served as a tutour to discern right from wrong in our treatment of God and each other..
restraining unloving/unright behavior...missing the mark of LOVE,consideration, kindness,regard,mercy and honesty with God and our
fellowman. Every infraction 'hurts' LOVE and it's free flow between us and God and every other person.
the widows penny[mite],Despising/wrath and with-holding fellow respect, concern ,love and mercy when we see people in need,,and
have the where-with all to give it[whether an encouraging word/compassion/sympathy/food/clothes/shelter etc. All 'things' working
togather for the good of all. Those with the least means of giving were still giving[til it hurt]..and those with the most togive were
holding back.
It is notright in God's sight...do unto other's as you would have them do unto you. God can very easily bring about circumstances
[moths/rust/thieves] in your life..and you find the proverbial 'shoe on the other foot" til you pay that last penny/mite.[give til it hurts]
and you find your life turned into a living hell.
LOVE is all about freely sharing and giving of all that you are,to all...
Peter,once had occasion to speak this way...'silver and gold I do not have...but what I have I give you."
Isaaih 42;7....to open eyes that are blind,to free captives from prison,and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
Jesus poured himself out for all of us.he give all that he was. He tasted death for every man.
Amen Sheila.. thank you.. He paid the ransom in full! no doubt about it..! "Savior of the world"
Ecclesiastes 12:7 American Standard Version (ASV)
7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
"We can't leave until the last penny is paid" ..... early in my walk, when I was still going to church, it was this that the Lord brought to my attention beforehand, one Sunday during a Bible study, this was mentioned and I had no idea at the time where the strength to say something came from (but I do now), ..... at the time it was mentioned, I said that "hell was temporary" and when I think about it now, it was like the words out of their mouths were like the plagues of Egypt descending upon me, but what I also now know is, I had the blood on my doorpost and that "firstborn" thought of "hell is temporary" was not put to death.
It is only now that I can look back upon that incident in my life and see that it (hell is permanent) was just another stumbling block that had to be removed in order to come into the understanding of UR.
It is only now also (IMO) that there are three general types of people, those who raise the flesh/body above the spirit, those who raise the spirit above the flesh/body and those who do not raise or lower one above or below the other.
For me, it is like saying, you cannot raise the Son of man above the Son of God ..... and also, we cannot raise the Son of God above the Son of man ..... they are equal in value ..... Yes, the Son of man was put to death, but I believe this was the full manifestation of what man had done to the body (through Adam, for in Adam all died)..... but the "Word" was also raised back up as an incorruptible body and that this incorruptibility is: that one is not more important than the other, they work together as one to manifest the Love of God in this world, in this world where Love may be alive in the (S)spirit but it is dead in the body ... unable to be manifested at all times through our actions towards all and this in itself is what I believe salvation is all about:
His continuing work in us to manifest His Spirit through this temporary body that is corrupted with death, but can also manifest Love through our words and actions ..... through our words (Christ Jesus/Spirit) and through our actions (Jesus Christ/body).
my :2c:
Quote from: Batty Bible Page on August 12, 2018, 05:14:44 AM
Ecclesiastes 12:7 American Standard Version (ASV)
7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
spirit.. pneuma.. wind, breath, spirit (of life?).. w/o resurrection I believe that would be "the end". "The wages of sin.." .."the soul/psyche that sins shall die".. I believe this is
the lesson.. That it simply cannot be done.. wandering away from God, that is, who is life ..not just the source of life and that spark of life, but life itself, all outside of it being not living. I have never been able to get my head around the idea that life is another form of being alive, which makes no sense to me.. Not that it matters, those are all things totally in God's hands.. But it just makes so much more sense to me.. so seems like a logical truth those not yet believing can actually understand.. It's just the way I've always thought about it, liking the message to be down to earth and very sensible. That God is life, and he's simply letting choices (limited, thank God!) other than His choices exist and run their course.. Proving it can never work. Because He is life, and purity/perfection; which purity just naturally consumes all impurity and is why He told Moses to tell the people that on no account to let them approach the mountain.. or touch the ark of the covenant.. :gsmile: