:Chinscratch: Regarding John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them."
and similar outrageous statements in the New and OT...
Does God really do this or is this a mistranslation or a means to some other greater end?
Jerry
I think it means what it says. But there are precipitating reasons for why God would do this, and an outcome of repentence.
There are varying degrees of this in operation from things like, "a haughty spirit comes before a fall", to...
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Notice that the reason for this judgment is that they did not believe the truth and they took pleasure in wickedness.
God is still a judge and hates wickedness. While He loves the sinner, He will judge the unrepentant adversary, scourging them in order to bring them to repentance, and bringing upon them the fruit of their ways.
"For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering. And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. As to the evangel, indeed, they are enemies because of you, yet, as to choice, they are beloved because of the fathers. For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!" (Romans 11:25-33)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: , Tom...
And I think eaglesway is right, although I have also thought "he chooses whom He will and hardens whom He will" is also like the director of a movie.. that our Father is letting mankind's (highly limited, thank goodness) choices run their course [because He is proving His will is not only far superior, but is the onLy will, and HE, is the only one who should be "all in all"... One kingdom (and universe) not a million little ones..] ..sort of like in a production/truth drama, you have to have more than 'one' character..
This to me, would be one reason I could never believe in harsh punishment or annihilation, or even more strident means of bringing them to repentance once they are resurrected after the millenium of Jesus.. Because He has chosen the elect and hardened the hearts of the non-elect.. that whereas there is divine purpose in Israel's falling away, there is also divine purpose in not all coming to repentance during this lifetime..
a :2c: :smile:
Thank you YHWH for being there working all things according to your will.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
:banana:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 01, 2015, 05:56:37 PM
I think it means what it says. But there are precipitating reasons for why God would do this, and an outcome of repentence.
There are varying degrees of this in operation from things like, "a haughty spirit comes before a fall", to...
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Notice that the reason for this judgment is that they did not believe the truth and theythat part of the predestination was took pleasure in wickedness.
God is still a judge and hates wickedness. While He loves the sinner, He will judge the unrepentant adversary, scourging them in order to bring them to repentance, and bringing upon them the fruit of their ways.
Eaglesway, you have helped to give me a piece to the puzzle, as they say.. that part of the predestination is because He knows all.. if this life was devoid of man's choice at all, when we hear of cruel and terrible things done, we could take no comfort in knowing about Judgment Day.
Not that the comfort would be in expectation of punishment or :eek: annihilation, but knowing that one day such perpetrators will deeply repent, regret and experience deep heart wrenching sorrow for their own actions and crimes against others. Besides the lesson of their somehow going down in flames at the end of this life..
Just some thoughts! I had not seen that before.. :smile:
Quote from: joeteekay on April 02, 2015, 01:37:35 AM
Thank you YHWH for being there working all things according to your will.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [/color]
It's a paradox isn't it? "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve" etc.. somewhere there's likely a balance..
At tower Babel the Father said "look what they purpose to do.." all working together(?) "there will be nothing beyond them.. let us go down and confuse their languages.." (Likely lest they destroy their selves so early on..!)
Mankind didn't spread over the earth (after the flood) like God had told them too..
Yet of course He foreknew this.. and ultimately, that they were building the tower, was engineered by Him anyway..? Surely before He did any act of creating, He could see (foreknew) all possibilities.. and has done every single thing in order to bring about the best of all possibilities..? And i think mixed up in this, is included, some sort of degree or dimension of 'choice' (in life that is, not election)... yet "He directs a man's steps.."
:dontknow: :smile:
I think the balance is, work out your own salvation :o)