The OT is strewn with God's judgement. Here are a few verses that were thrown out to day to show that not all are saved.
Right in the same passage God is slaying and then all flesh will worship. How is this reconciled?
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
He is talking about creating a new people via the Spirit. "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord."
For those that rejected Christ, and do even today, this fire is not quenched:
Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.
That's Gehenna, where the "fire" is not quenched, but it's not quenched only as long as "his hand is still upraised." It's not forever, for the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
"I kill and I make alive" do not eat from the TOKOGAE lest ye die................He drove them
from the garden..appointed a cherub..lest the eat from the TOL also and live forever.
any of you want this world of sinful flesh to exist for eternity? I don't..death is preferrable
than to abide the wicked ones presence eternally.
the righteous one rests in the grave to be spared the evil that is coming..and no-one takes it
to heart.
sin in the flesh can not be tolerated eternally..THANK GOD that it is not to be our future!!
that He shall deliver us from this body[sin in flesh] undergoing this death/corruption
that the misery of this exercize in evil be concluded...that the weak corruptible body
be raised up in power and be uncorruptible.
THANK GOD that the tree of knowledge held not just evil..but also the GOODness of God's
heart and intentions in it[only God is God] and that man would be delivered from the wicked one
by the very goodness and mercy of God!!! THank God that it is not a permanent state!!!!!
THAT IT IS TEMPORAL!
Thank God that He not only kills[brings death] BUT MAKES ALIVE AND NEW!!!!!!!!
Itell you the newly redeemed ones that rise daily[daily sacrifices] that hear His voice
and come forth from their graves[body of death] can not stop Praising HIM for their
deliverance!!!! SALVATION WE OWE UNTO HIM! DELIVERANCE FROM EVIL WE OWE UNTO HIM
DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH WE OWE UNTO HIM
NO MORE CURSE,NO MORE DEATH NOR MOURNING NOR OUTCRY NOR PAIN
FOR HE MAKES ALL THINGS NEW!!!
Quote from: ed on February 06, 2014, 03:22:23 PM
The OT is strewn with God's judgement. Here are a few verses that were thrown out to day to show that not all are saved.
Right in the same passage God is slaying and then all flesh will worship. How is this reconciled?
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
I personally believe this is a prophecy concernng the lake of fire. To me the lake of fire is like a giant family intervention. Light is fire to darkness. Jesus has eyes like flames of fire in Johns revelation. The fire consumes the darkness by causing every hidden thing to come to the light. Paul says- "Every thing that is brought to light becomes light. The 'lake", or better "sea" of fire, in my opinion, is us, or perhaps us and the angels. Bodies of water often symbolize groups of people in scripture, and Paul says, "No you not that you will judge angels, how is it you cannot judge amongst yourselves." Daniel says, "And the courts sat and the books were opened."
IN Romans 2 it says, "On the day God will judge the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ, their consciousness either accusing them or excusing them"
So, I believe the lake of fire is an experience of having your consciousness opened against your will and all the hidden secrets(Adam hid from God in the garden) exposed to the light. Eventually, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
And they were baptized of him in the Jordan river, confessing their sins.
" I will separate the wheat from the chaff and I will gather the wheat into my garner but I will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire."
The chaff is the waste of the seed. It has been taught that the wheat are the Christians and the chaff are the sinners. Nope, the wheat and the chaff are two parts of one seed. You are wheat and you are chaff. The chaff gets beaten off with the winnowing fork(trials and tribulations), the wind blows the chaff off of the seed of wheat(the renewing of the Spirit) and the unquenchable fire(the light) consumes the chaff(carnal mind/flesh/chaos) till it is no more.
"If you do not abide in me you will wither & dry up as a branch and be cut off and the branches will be gathered up by men and thrown into the fire to be burned"
Not flames of literal fire but rather the flames of light that consume the darkness. If we as believers do not abide in Christ the water of life will begin to ebb. We dry out( as in the lack of the presence of Christ and the Spirit in our lives). To me the flames speak again of the light, of the eyes of Christ that will consume all darkness even to the very heart of our being.
The 'lake", or better "sea" of fire, in my opinion (EW)
LAKE G3041 limnē Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040 limēn Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
G2568 Kaloi Limenes Good Harbors, that is, Fairhaven, a bay of Crete: - fair havens.
"So, I believe the lake of fire is an experience of having your consciousness opened against your will and all the hidden secrets(Adam hid from God in the garden) exposed to the light."
I can believe and accept, "..your consciousness opened against your will..."
BUT "....Adam hid from God..." ????? WHAT could have hidden from God? Explain, please.
read all about it,in Genesis 3;8 and 9 Micah
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 15, 2014, 01:07:59 AM
The 'lake", or better "sea" of fire, in my opinion (EW)
LAKE G3041 limnē Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040 limēn Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
G2568 Kaloi Limenes Good Harbors, that is, Fairhaven, a bay of Crete: - fair havens.
"So, I believe the lake of fire is an experience of having your consciousness opened against your will and all the hidden secrets(Adam hid from God in the garden) exposed to the light."
I can believe and accept, "..your consciousness opened against your will..."
BUT "....Adam hid from God..." ????? WHAT could have hidden from God? Explain, please.
the fact that Adam hid does not mean God did not see, of course :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 02:28:35 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 15, 2014, 01:07:59 AM
The 'lake", or better "sea" of fire, in my opinion (EW)
LAKE G3041 limnē Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040 limēn Apparently a primary word; a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
G2568 Kaloi Limenes Good Harbors, that is, Fairhaven, a bay of Crete: - fair havens.
"So, I believe the lake of fire is an experience of having your consciousness opened against your will and all the hidden secrets(Adam hid from God in the garden) exposed to the light."
I can believe and accept, "..your consciousness opened against your will..."
BUT "....Adam hid from God..." ????? WHAT could have hidden from God? Explain, please.
the fact that Adam hid does not mean God did not see, of course :o)
NOTHING was hid. Why do you even consider such a thought? If God could "see" how in the world was it "hid?" :Chinscratch:
you didnt stop toconsider what I was saying before u replied. You just made my point. Adam was hiding, as we all do at times, in vain.
But, "All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we hav to do".
And why would you b getting yourself in trouble? This is only a discussion, a conversation among brothers :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 02:38:59 AM
you didnt stop toconsider what I was saying before u replied. You just made my point. Adam was hiding, as we all do at times, in vain.
But, "All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we hav to do".
And why would you b getting yourself in trouble? This is only a discussion, a conversation among brothers :o)
You used a play on your words, No Adam was not hiding, he was in himself, thinking it was not already known. As for getting myself in trouble I frivolously used the word "silly" which has gotten me in hot water before in times past. Yes, it is but a discussion, a conversation among brothers.
And sheila I have and reread Gen. 3: 8 and 9 and fail to see just what was hid, but please explain your thoughts.
You are not hearing, because you are contending a point no one is making. I said Adam hid. I was not using a play at words. Adam hid- hid being a verb descibing Adam's actions and intentions. No one is saying he was successful in his attempt to hide from God. That thought would never enter my mind. I would have no need to play at words because the scripture says , "and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of God". The scriptures are not playing at words, or saying Adam was invisible to God- they are saying Adam was hiding(albeit, OF COURSE, unsuccessfully)
Shelia, do you in your heart believe that the man and the woman were hid? Remember man had been given an imagination. Do you believe the Lord God had a question He did not know the knowledge of? Gen 3:9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where art thou?'
Remember(in the human vein) that a good lawyer will not ask a question that he does not know the answer to, and as you know and have said, that we have an advocate (which many say is our lawyer.)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2014, 03:00:50 AM
You are not hearing, because you are contending a point no one is making. I said Adam hid. I was not using a play at words. Adam hid- hid being a verb descibing Adam's actions and intentions. No one is saying he was successful in his attempt to hide from God. That thought would never enter my mind. I would have no need to play at words because the scripture says , "and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of God". The scriptures are not playing at words, or saying Adam was invisible to God- they are saying Adam was hiding(albeit, OF COURSE, unsuccessfully)
Of course, :dsunny:but now you explain, I just spoke on your offering. You can see how this can be more dramatic, the story all of us try to present.
well,,he whose deeds are wicked will not come into the light[God's presence]for fear that his deeds
will be exposed. John3 ;20-21...whoever lives by the truth cmes into the light right?
now..you might hide in the darkness...but God knows what 'lies' in the darkness.............
if the light that be in you[knowledge of good/evil] be darkness..how great is that darkness!
You ain't hiding Shelia, you just feel you are. It's kinda like, oh I don't know. The Lord hides, yet we fail to know the completeness of our openness. We are so much babies....can you live with it? I'm trying :dsunny:
your'e comments,especially the one about us being 'babes' reminded me of my little ones..who at one point
in their developement..if they covered their eyes...thought they could not be seen!!!!!![like the proverbial
ostrich that would hide it's head in the sand..not realizing how very exposed they really where.." lool!...
reminds me of the 'peek a' boo" games I use to play with them. :dsunny:
Sorta like Adam did in the garden :o)
Sorta like Adam?
playin peek a boo with God
There is a difference in iron sharpening iron and just being stubbornly argumentative over minutia.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Lazarus was dead and raised, as were some others, and they certainly did not have judgment afterward. The scripture that tells us that it is given unto man once to die and after this the judgment does not mean the physical death. It means the death of immaturity, childishness spiritually, the spirit of the old man. That is what has to "pass away" or perish from existence in us before we have God's judgment in us as our wisdom. We all must appear in our physical body to receive this judgment that is salvation because it is the works of the body we all have to understand and put under Christ in us to be perfected or finished in maturity in Jesus Christ. So, the resurrection of the dead is also physical, as well as in our understanding of what causes death spiritually.
Donken