Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:
I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?
I would expect no less than an angry and wrathful God from a people who think they can be right with God by their works. That is one of the main points of the OT...if you submit yourself to that system, God will be seen as angry and wrathful. That is the fruit of the law. Fortunately, the God of Jesus Christ is not like that.
Just my POV right now.
Peace,
Giz
It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.
This is of one of A.P Adams writings:
Psalm 7:11; "God judgeth the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day." So it reads in the common version, but so it ought not to read. The correct reading is just the opposite, viz., "God is a righteous judge and He is not angry always." So, Young renders it, so also the Vulgate, Septuagint an Syriac. The original word for "God" is very similar to the word for "not." "El" means God; "al" means not; in the original there is not so much difference as in the English, as the vowels are very nearly alike. Doubtless these two words became confused and thus the error occurred; the corrected rendering agrees perfectly with such passages as Psa. 103:8,9; Isa. 57:16; Mic. 7:18,19.
Considering God wiped out the entire population (save 8) in Noahs day, killed off some of the children of Israel even after He saved and brought them out of Egypt, destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah ... I know this is all OT judgement, but i would say that everything in the OT is a picture for NT. Even though we have "grace" under Christ I would dare say He is still vengeful toward those who are not living according to His ways.
My thoughts anyway
Blessings
GC007
This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.
Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?
Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?
Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?
well for mine..Because the words which conflict are read with the wrong Understanding.
Everythng in the Old was a forerunner , A shadow of the reality which was to COME.
THE Word OF his TRUTH in the Old had to be preserved and kept to SHOW the reality which was to come as it BORE witness to that which was to follow.
Correction or Blessings were used for this preservation.
His ways are Not our WAYS.
Blessings Taffy
Quote from: Sazzy on October 05, 2007, 04:34:12 PM
This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.
Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?
Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?
I agree.....when you read the old testament it would seem that God/Love was asleep/dead within mankind........and perhaps this is true. Most of the old testament treats God as being very seperate from humanity......they perceived God to be far away and unreachable (many still believe this today), but God is within.....there is no real separtion except that which exists in one's own heart/mind/soul.
Love must be awakened/resurrected in order to be revealed.
Split off posts from here to Light-Darkness (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=902.0). Gone to debates
Guests cannot view this split.
Blessings
Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?
It seems to me the OT were working out the curse of the law. All the events they interpreted as God being angry and wrathful because that is how they see Him through the lens of works righteousness. Does that make sense? I haven't thought it all through, but viewing God thru the lens of the law is much different that thru the lens of grace and peace.
Giz
When one reads the old testament, we are reading the childhood of the human race and the different stages of parenting. Even in the old testament their was plenty of forgiveness. Consider King David, an adulterer who sent 2 men, both trusted friends, to their death to attempt to cover his crime. Did God punish David. Some may think yes, concerning Absalom...but that is not quite true. Absalom's rebellious nature can really be seen more as humanities rebellion against God. And David, even after his son tried to take his Kingdom from him, bemoaned the loss and wished to give anything to have him back. Get it? And no, God did not cause Absalom to rebel. Actually he was goaded into it by the grandfather of Bathsheba, revenge for his seduced grand-daughter, slain son, and slain son-in-law. God forgave David his sins, but earthly consequences still befell him. Life sucks, God forgives.
Hey Rev I stole your last sentence as a siggy.
Here is my comments in part from another thread
Quote from: SeekerSA on November 08, 2007, 02:42:32 PM
Insurance, warranties et al. usually have an act of God and in SA acts of Terrorism as exclusions. Amazing that Terrorism and Acts of God are equal.
Acts of God
Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Hurricanes or Cyclones
Lightning
Strange that that which cannot be predicted statistically is blamed on God. Why not nature?
Seems to me if there was a flood, even back then it was an Act of God. It could have been a comet hitting the ocean causing a catastrophic Tsunami.
So I guess it is all God's fault as He created everything?
How much culture was mixed in with Truth in the OT? It says there is nothing new under the sun so by that one should assume that as in today's Church mindset of a vengeful wrathful God, back then it was easy to write off the inexplicable to God.
Who knows how much poetic licence was taken when the Hebrews were barbaric to justify it by "God told me/us so?"
We need only look at the history of the church in the last century and how things have gotten twisted to see this is an inherent trait of man to use fear as a governing tactic. Look at your own President. (USA Only)
The doctrine of madness established by the Greco/Roman pagans fits so nicely into today's justification of evil.
Religion = Bondage
Government = Control
Jesus = Liberty
Personally I do not believe half the atrocities committed in the OT were sanctioned by God, it breaks His fundamental law
Thou shalt not kill.
We all use that to validate UR as God cannot break one of His own laws.
If you read, through the OT there is a governing theme of God allowing Israel to nearly be destroyed barring a remnant. Think about it. They, the chosen, how different were they than today's Phrozen Chosen?
Can you not see the parallels that exist?
No, God is not a meanie, He is Love personified, gender non-specific.
There are pearls in the OT but you have to dig for them. Layer one sucks in most cases but there are deeper hidden meanings we can learn.
Blessings :HeartThrob:
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
The Old Testament is full of words from both the Wrath and the Love of God.
The Wrath of God (Elohim) is Satan.
The Love of God (Elohim) is Christ.
Light & Darkness.
All Elohim. :thumbsup:
But this will not always be so. Soon the darkness will be vanquished forever and there will be but one.
Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
The Wrath is vengeful, boastful and unforgiving. The Love is not.
Here is the Wrath (who advocates lying):
1 Kings 22
19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
Here we have caught the Wrath (the other LORD), red handed in advocating a LIE!!! The LOVE of God never LIES!!! IS it not written...
Proverbs 19:22
The desire of a man is his kindness: and a poor man is better than a liar.
How can the LORD be such a hypocrite?? He advocates lying yet will hold US guilty for the same behaviour?
The obvious conclusion is...this LORD is not MY LORD (the one who advocates a lie in the Kings verse given above). FOR THIS LORD IS a liar, and the father of it.
I've been thinking about this since Gary first posted it, and today this verse finally occurred to me. Don't how it didn't spring immediately to mind.
Luk 2:13-14 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth
peace,
good will toward men."
The Greek word for peace there is "eirene," which Strong's says means:
Quotea state of national tranquillity; exemption from the rage and havoc of war; peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord; security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)
God declared peace when He sent His son. I suppose that all of us might remain "at war" with God at times, but I believe this verse means that-- from His side-- peace has already been declared.
Anyway. I'd be curious what others think.
Peace and blessings,
Andy
Edited to add this P.S. The word for "good will" is: "eudokia," which means:
Quotegood will, kindly intent, benevolence; delight, pleasure, satisfaction; desire (for delight in any absent thing easily produces longing for it)
I agree with Reverend G :iagree:
My 12 year old probably finds me much more agreeable than my troublesome 2 year old does. It's not me. It's them :bigGrin:
Rebeccat,
Wow, that really spoke to my heart.
All mankind has been created in the 'image' and the 'likeness' of our heavenly Father.
And each of us at particular given times - will show 'love' and 'anger'....and even 'wrath'.
None of us like to get angry with our children....but sometimes it becomes necessary.
So why can't we allow our heavenly Father to do so likewise....with all His children.
Peace, AJ
AJ,
Quote"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?
That IS the coolest.
Dean
Quote from: Dean on November 12, 2007, 08:42:43 PM
AJ,
Quote"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?
Yes! Way cool! :thumbsup:
I once theorized on an totally off the wall version of Hell, not truly scripturally supported, but somewhat in line with that described in the Apocalypse of St. Peter. It still makes me think at times.
Many who embrace the concept of Hell no longer see it as a literal "eternal fire" anymore, using the concept to describe a great torment. Trying to reconcile "hell" versus the concept of all being saved, which I firmly believe, this is what I thought.
So, we die, are confronted by the Light, say He does give us a replay of our life, and all that we did that was an abomination, and expresses how much this hurt and displeased Him. In the afterlife, we lose our human pride and ability to not care about what we have done to harm others, especially the God whom created us and loved us so. We feel so much remorse for our misdeeds that we wish we could truly die. After all this, we are still told we are forgiven, and welcomed into Heaven. This could be too much for the mind to accept, such unconditional love in the face of our actions, and the time (not literally, as there is no "time" in eternity) it takes us to get over ourselves and accept the love which has been bestowed on us could truly be a torment greater than eternal flames. Mental meltdown. Corny, sure, but kinda neat.
Quote from: Reverend G on November 14, 2007, 01:08:49 PM
I once theorized on an totally off the wall version of Hell, not truly scripturally supported, but somewhat in line with that described in the Apocalypse of St. Peter. It still makes me think at times.
Many who embrace the concept of Hell no longer see it as a literal "eternal fire" anymore, using the concept to describe a great torment. Trying to reconcile "hell" versus the concept of all being saved, which I firmly believe, this is what I thought.
So, we die, are confronted by the Light, say He does give us a replay of our life, and all that we did that was an abomination, and expresses how much this hurt and displeased Him. In the afterlife, we lose our human pride and ability to not care about what we have done to harm others, especially the God whom created us and loved us so. We feel so much remorse for our misdeeds that we wish we could truly die. After all this, we are still told we are forgiven, and welcomed into Heaven. This could be too much for the mind to accept, such unconditional love in the face of our actions, and the time (not literally, as there is no "time" in eternity) it takes us to get over ourselves and accept the love which has been bestowed on us could truly be a torment greater than eternal flames. Mental meltdown. Corny, sure, but kinda neat.
Interesting thought - sound's a lot like Howard Storm's NDE: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html) :bigGrin:
Quote from: God_Chaser_007 on October 05, 2007, 03:13:14 PM
Considering God wiped out the entire population (save 8) in Noahs day, killed off some of the children of Israel even after He saved and brought them out of Egypt, destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah ... I know this is all OT judgement, but i would say that everything in the OT is a picture for NT. Even though we have "grace" under Christ I would dare say He is still vengeful toward those who are not living according to His ways.
My thoughts anyway
Blessings
GC007
I would relegate such events as The Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah as categorized under natural disasters. Natural disasters continue to happen to this very day (ie. Katrina striking New Orleans, The Tsunami that struck India a year or so ago, etc.) Are we to suppose that those are signs of God's wrath? (New Orleans of course is a "sin" city, especially during Mardi Gras. :wink: Would you consider that tantamount to Sodom and Gomorrah? Some people say San Francisco is a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah, but I would suspect New York first myself.) Naturally back in the biblical times, when catastrophe struck, they attributed it to God. Perhaps man himself brought on these events through mismanagment of the earth. If I for instance drive 90 mph in a 65 mph zone, I'm no doubt driving too fast to be safe. If I get in an accident, is it the law's fault? Likewise, we do irresponsible things, then when the fruits of consequence come, we attribute it to God, saying he's angry with us. I no longer attribute disasters of any kind, ancient historical or modern, to God.
Chuck :smile:
The big problem with human interpretation of the old testament "wrath" of God is, how do you come to be wise or intelligent enough to see the true nature or reasoning behind these events? So He was upset because of the sinning, is it because it displeased him , or because it was tainting the few good people around. And of course, the really simple question, what is really so bad about being called to Him? Is any amount of earthly suffering really so bad, considering the rewards? He knows the end from the beginning, and knows He calls all souls to His presence for eternity. Being a 12-stepper, the program refers to God as we understand Him. I remember seeing a speaker once, who got it right. He always purposely corrupted the line into "God as I MISunderstand Him". Makes perfect sense to me. Who am I to even think I could ever hope to truly understand HIM.
Gary Amirault wrote: ... how can anyone say that God is not an angry God? And how and why would a spirit, which God is, show and have Human Emotions?
----------------------------------
Hi Gary: They can't say "god" isn't angry. From the Biblical record, god is angry just like many other gods of the era. Angry "gods" requiring appeasement and sacrifice pre-date Judaism by 1000's of years and unfortunately are likely to persist in the foreseeable future.
I'm not a "Biblical Literalist". I agree that your question makes no sense, and personally, I don't believe these verses and those like it. These are human emotions ascribed to "god" by an ancient and scientifically ignorant people trying to explain how "they believed" God should think, feel or act in terms of the only existence they knew – their own.
The "Angry God" idea is also the root cause of the "sacrificial system" and the Jews had to keep the need for sacrifice alive to perpetuate the Priesthood and maintain the requisite level of fear and manipulation. However, for every "Angry God" verse there are many more "Merciful God" verses.
Bottomline, the Biblical authors just couldn't fathom the concept of an all-good Creator or Father-God. So, god had to be bigoted, jealous, vengeful, angry, murderous and capricious, at least on occasions, right? I mean, who would bow down and obey a god who consistently forgave and loved them unconditionally, healing their hearts and bodies and challenging them to minister to others in like manner? The first century Biblical Scholars certainly didn't like these qualities in Jesus! They couldn't handle the truth! The Truth of a Loving, non-angry God!
Wherever there is religious tyranny and legalism, there will be an "angry god" to deal with and the threat of Hell at the ready!
Grace & Peace, John :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Floyd on October 05, 2007, 10:40:33 AM
This is of one of A.P Adams writings:
Psalm 7:11; "God judgeth the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day." So it reads in the common version, but so it ought not to read.
The correct reading is just the opposite, viz., "God is a righteous judge and He is not angry always." So, Young renders it, so also the Vulgate, Septuagint an Syriac. The original word for "God" is very similar to the word for "not." "El" means God; "al" means not; in the original there is not so much difference as in the English, as the vowels are very nearly alike. Doubtless these two words became confused and thus the error occurred; the corrected rendering agrees perfectly with such passages as Psa. 103:8,9; Isa. 57:16; Mic. 7:18,19.
Our Fathers anger is but for a moment, and linked with it is life!
"For his anger endureth
but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."
QuoteHath God forgotten to be gracious? Has he in anger shut up his tender mercies?
Our Father's anger is linked with his gracious Being & his anger is linked with his tender mercies.
It is interesting to note the Koine for wrath is orge. And orge is rooted in oregamai.
Oregamai=
To stretch one's self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something.
-George MacDonald-QuoteAlso unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work. - Psl. 62:12-
"The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have become accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:
To thee, O Lord belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work."
Quote from: FineLinen on December 12, 2007, 03:48:06 PM
QuoteAlso unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work. - Psl. 62:12-
"The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have become accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:
To thee, O Lord belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work."
Thanks for that Finelinen. Wow. That stopped me in my tracks.
Arup: It is such a mystery how topsy turvy we attempt to make the words of the Lofty One.
QuoteWhat is translated as "wrath" in conventional translations cannot---as commonly believed---be an essential change of disposition on God's part toward man. God has only one disposition, one inclination, one divine posture in His relationship with man, that of unconditional love coming to us in unearned grace. He is determined to fully give Himself to us unreservedly. When one sees this, we become His bond slave, bound by such love. -John Gavazzoni-
ForgivenHERE (http://mrmom.amaonline.com/forgiven.htm)
"God was in Christ reconciling the kosmos unto Himself."
reconciling eternity or even,
reconciling himself to himself.
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 03, 2007, 09:48:24 PM
Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:
I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?
God does get angry, but every day?!? Does a Being that exist outside time and even created time itself have 'days' to be angry on. Biblical literalists: if God told them to give someone a hand, they'd sever their own arms by the wrists.
Well,
God did institute death of man, as a result of sin. And every day people die. So His weapon is working. I can see Him being angry that we still "don't get it", on a daily basis , here on earth. Not that "getting it" will save you from earthly death.
The idea of Him being angry does not confront me as problematic. Why can't someone (even a human) love unconditionally, yet still be angry? Still, indignant really isn't synonomous with angry.
Quote from: Reverend G on January 27, 2008, 11:18:57 PM
Well,
God did institute death of man, as a result of sin. And every day people die. So His weapon is working. I can see Him being angry that we still "don't get it", on a daily basis , here on earth. Not that "getting it" will save you from earthly death.
The idea of Him being angry does not confront me as problematic. Why can't someone (even a human) love unconditionally, yet still be angry? Still, indignant really isn't synonomous with angry.
Doesn't Jesus/God teach us we should love our neighbor instead of being angry with the neighbor. Isn't anger a sin?
His anger in many cases does confront me as problematic.
Lets take the classic example of the flood. God was sad/angry likely even with a reason. But where the 3 month old babies that drowned with more sin than all 8 than where saved?
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.
So basicly God created evil and becomes angry because his own created evil is evil.
I fear I'll never understand such things done by a all powerful God.
Hi White Wings,
Part of biblical division is determining the reletive vs the absolute. The relative nature of things is how it is going to appear to us. The absolute is what God does despite our understanding.
God judges whether we like it or not. No matter how righteous it really is or is intended to be, it will appear to us as anger.
No human child can ever comprehend a loving parents discipline as great and wonderful while enduring it, there is just no way to reason it otherwise until the child get to a point of maturity and they see the outcome. A human example is sometimes inadequate to describe something God is doing, but I think the general idea is there. We are still children in the realm of the journey we are on with God.
If the bible was written to us in a feel good manner, we would never believe it because that completely would contradict what we know.
We know pain, we know destruction, we know anger, to write in terms that it is all not any of that could not be understood so that we begin the process of understanding its purpose.
I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved. I know he can take the most despicable event and make good come from it. But when someone I love dies, I feel pain regaurdless of that knowledge.
Not sure if that helps, but I can try to explain differently if not.
Thanks for jumping on my ramblings so quickly :thumbsup:
You know I'm on this forum long enough to anticipate an answer like you just gave.
Not saying therefore your answer is unwanted, boring or just wrong.
I also know I'm at the bottom of the ladder. Like having escaped from kindergarten and sneaked in to follow class at an university.
But still if I try to look beyond that I still have problems. Problems I can't imagine you, meaning all that feel the HS, don't have.
Lets focus on myself. In know the 10 commandments. I understand them enough to know I sinned to all of them. About some I think it are nonsense laws. But still I understand I didn't write them and I broke them. And that a punishment is attached to them. But then going back to the flood. I'm 99.999999% convinced that in the eyes of God the 3 month old babies have not sinned. But those little ones God claims to love so much, like he said he weeps if a sparrow dies, still die a horrible drowning death.
If you could point me to a verse that states that the babies died instantly without any suffering things would be far more just to me.
Yes i know Gods intellect is far higher than mine so I might not understand every goal of Him.
But He's also my teacher. And for teaching purposes it's usual considered handy that the teacher speaks the same language as the pupil does. Human teachers have their limits so might sometimes have problems reaching class. But God is a teacher that is so unique He can't hide behind such limitations because He simply doesn't have them.
"I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved."
I even believe that Paul. And sometime in heaven we perhaps laugh at my silly posts in Heaven. With loudest laugh of the Father Himself. But until then I would like to understand things a bit too.
Lots of people I know (atheists) have similar problems with the ways of God. It really pushes away people. Surely God knows that. Ok He has a extremely good purpose for that; but that doesn't make me feel much better.
In fact besides the 160 "love all, save all" verses Gary put on his site; a lot of Gods actions "prove" He is sort of ET like too....
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 11, 2008, 06:35:50 PM
Thanks for jumping on my ramblings so quickly :thumbsup:
You know I'm on this forum long enough to anticipate an answer like you just gave.
Not saying therefore your answer is unwanted, boring or just wrong.
I also know I'm at the bottom of the ladder. Like having escaped from kindergarten and sneaked in to follow class at an university.
But still if I try to look beyond that I still have problems. Problems I can't imagine you, meaning all that feel the HS, don't have.
Lets focus on myself. In know the 10 commandments. I understand them enough to know I sinned to all of them. About some I think it are nonsense laws. But still I understand I didn't write them and I broke them. And that a punishment is attached to them. But then going back to the flood. I'm 99.999999% convinced that in the eyes of God the 3 month old babies have not sinned. But those little ones God claims to love so much, like he said he weeps if a sparrow dies, still die a horrible drowning death.
If you could point me to a verse that states that the babies died instantly without any suffering things would be far more just to me.
Yes i know Gods intellect is far higher than mine so I might not understand every goal of Him.
But He's also my teacher. And for teaching purposes it's usual considered handy that the teacher speaks the same language as the pupil does. Human teachers have their limits so might sometimes have problems reaching class. But God is a teacher that is so unique He can't hide behind such limitations because He simply doesn't have them.
"I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved."
I even believe that Paul. And sometime in heaven we perhaps laugh at my silly posts in Heaven. With loudest laugh of the Father Himself. But until then I would like to understand things a bit too.
Lots of people I know (atheists) have similar problems with the ways of God. It really pushes away people. Surely God knows that. Ok He has a extremely good purpose for that; but that doesn't make me feel much better.
In fact besides the 160 "love all, save all" verses Gary put on his site; a lot of Gods actions "prove" He is sort of ET like too....
Hi White Wings
Sorry for the delay in responding to this.
For one, I do not want to come across as more spiritual or righteous than I really am. As you question your own spirituality comparing yourself to others, I know for a fact that I am still learning. I am confident at any given time because I believe that even when we are wrong, God needs us to believe something wrong for a period of time. It is all for a purpose.
I believe to kinda understand things of evil, that however does not mean that I sit by as bad things happen and get all warm and fuzzy as I think God is getting ready to teach me something. A verse such as turn the other cheek sounds nice, but if it means as the mennonites believe, then I will fail. Because they believe, in doctrine anyway, that if someone attacks your loved ones, you should not try to stop them. True or not, I know that I could not. Thats just what I know.
Thats why I know, if Hell is eternal, I am doomed, there is no amount of feeling good about some words of accepting Christ that is going to change that.
I do not think that God asks us to like evil, in fact he tells us to resist it. Perhaps many ideas of our will and our actions being planned for is valid, possibly, if mankind had acted better, there would not have been a flood to write about.
Unfortunatly, it is true that we reap what we sow. This reaping is not limited to the hurt and destruction that we can cause for others. Did the community of people rejecting God in those days as they did, reap those consequences on their children and of that they will be corrected for?
Reaping what we sow is often mistaken to be a "what goes around comes around" or a Karma type of thing for us personally and that is partly true. In truth, reaping what we sow means that we can sow seeds of destruction and we might escape the immediate circumstances, but we also affect others.
While the flood may have indeed taken place in one form or another, the flood also shows the spiritual value of reaping what we sow. We will eventually be on the road to destruction ourselves, no matter how many times we might have escaped it prior.
I cannot give you scripture that details the type of suffering a little cute baby might have escaped because there isn't any I could provide you with.
How we feel about something doesn't change its truth.
God is angry every day? Naw:
God is happy since the sacrifice of His only begotten Son:
1Ti 1:11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."
Jesus is happy too!
1Ti 6:15 which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords,
God is at peace with all mankind now:
2Co 5:19-21 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation." (20) For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!" (21) For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."
Conciliated just means one side of two people is at peace.
When two are at peace with eachother there is reconciliation.
However, when God's ambassadors are withdrawn from this earth, hostilities will break out and God is going to have to use a heavy hand to set people and evil spirit beings straight.
This does not mean God does not love them. For whom He loves He chastens.
Why was the OT God angry? He was in covenant with Israel. If they did not keep the law (did any of them?) they covenanted with God to receive the curses of the law. So God was angry with them to show them their incompetence at keeping the law. He was not just angry for angrie's sake.
I'm Tony and I agree with this message :)
Mayby I am simple minded....
but dont we get our emotions from God ? he once hit me with a wave of Love that I know could overcome anything.
I guess he could be angry too....but like a Loving Father that gets angry ?
Peace
Exactly.
I get angry with my 4-year old daughter just about every day, but do I ever stop loving her? No. Even when she does something I know she will do (pseudo-foreknowledge), I still get mad at her, and I still love her just the same.
Legoman
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 03, 2007, 09:48:24 PM
Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:
I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?
Anthropomorphism.
God is an angry God and an extremely violent God and He is love which make His anger and violence perfect in every way. Go figure.
cp
Quote from: Sazzy on October 05, 2007, 04:34:12 PM
This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.
Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?
Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?
I think That God in the Old Testament was dealing with Israel according to Mosaic Law
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth..and along these lines it is not difficult to understand that the people saw this as something that was not easy to attain. Finally comes the time for Christ and in the New Testament we see a different side Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So living under the law God acted by the Law because the promised Messiah had not yet been sent, after sending Christ then God began to show more the chracteristics of Grace... Even so The concept of grace still exists in the OT.
Psa 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
"Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, You will cast our sins into the depths of the sea."
Please note:
1. God does not retain His anger forever!
2. Our God delights, yes delights, in unchanging love.
I like those points guys. At the risk of being (incorrectly) accused of and labeled as being a dreaded dispensationalist, I too believe God has dealt with mankind in "different" ways, at "different" times; and will do so again. IMO, it depends on what part of His plan He is in at the "time". There are different ages, and I believe this is the age of grace, or as some would say, the day of rest, perhaps.
God doesn't change; doesn't have to for the above to be true. It's all God, all the time, and as Martin said in another post, He shows "different sides" of Himself at different times. Still God, still His plan, all still according to His unchanging character...which is love.
IMO God has revealed Himself to us progressively in Scriptures. God's Word needs to be studied with a mind to, when it was written and to whom it was written. God reveals Himself in "types", and "shadows" all thru His word. Taken in Its totallity, the Bible shows God dealing with man in differring ways, differring economies, at differring times. By "rightly dividing the Word of Truth"(Timothy) we can gain much in the way of perspective about God's purpose for the ages.
IMO pulling passages written to other believers, during different economies, and applying them directly to ourselves, will leave us in a bewildering state of confusion.
The Apostle Paul tells the Corinthians, God is not the God of confusion.
Quote from: Zach on October 04, 2007, 04:55:08 AM
It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.
True.
1 Corinthians 13:4-5 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 07, 2009, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: Zach on October 04, 2007, 04:55:08 AM
It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.
True.
1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.
Oh this is good guys. Does this mean God's hate and God's love are not mutually exclusive too? God's "hate" is only his wrath?
On other sites, someone always brings up the point "God doesn't love everyone". This goes a long way to driving the last nail in the coffin for that argument.
Legoman
For me the meaning of the verses is very clear.
You can call God angry, hating, disappointed, full with vengeance and a whole lot of other negative things that lead to punishment.
He is. Simply because He said that about Himself
BUT..... He also says He's love. And love makes God forget all the above feelings. And when He doesn't remember the crimes there isn't need for punishment either.
And IMO the above 'concept' is clearly returning in the verses listed below.
Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
Lamentations 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
Quote from: legoman on June 07, 2009, 08:52:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 07, 2009, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: Zach on October 04, 2007, 04:55:08 AM
It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.
True.
1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.
Oh this is good guys. Does this mean God's hate and God's love are not mutually exclusive too? God's "hate" is only his wrath?
On other sites, someone always brings up the point "God doesn't love everyone". This goes a long way to driving the last nail in the coffin for that argument.
Legoman
Imo it is seeing all the aspects of God in the nature of correction.
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 03, 2007, 09:48:24 PM
Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:
I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
I'm not so sure of that. It defines the
current meaning as anger.
Etymology: Latin indignant-, indignans, present participle of indignari to be indignant, from indignus unworthy, from in- + dignus worthy — more at decent
Date: 1590 (Complete Apostles' Bible) God is a righteous Judge, and strong, and patient, not inflicting vengeance every day.
(DRB) (7:12) God is a just judge, strong and patient: is he angry every day? => the ? is not mine but from the Bible.
(Brenton) God is a righteous judge, and strong, and patient, not inflicting vengeance every day. => Septuagint translation.
(YLT) God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.
Plus God is long suffering...
Just had another heretical thought...
"Day" is a translation of the Hebrew "yom".
Yom is a bit like age. It has no fixed length.
Strong
QuoteMeaning: 1) day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour period) 1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1 1b2) as a division of time 1b2a) a working day, a day's journey 1c) days, lifetime (pl.) 1d) time, period (general) 1e) year 1f) temporal references 1f1) today 1f2) yesterday 1f3) tomorrow
Most likely not Biblically correct but it will do to bring my 'idea' across (I hope)
There is an age of Law. An age of grace.
Perhaps an age of anger too?
Maybe God is really angry for a long period of time. Say 4000 years; but after that yoms/days of anger are past He's not angry anymore.
:cloud9: That's good WW.......I see it as two sides of a coin (goodness of God/wrath of God), occurring simultaneously, with our decisions affecting which side of the "coin" we are permitted to perceive, at that moment. God didn't change, but our perception changed due to the momentary change in our own nature brought about by sin (missing the mark).
But more than that, because we are changed from glory to glory based on our perceiving thru the mind of Christ, the "coin" is sort of like a "self-regulating" mirror image of Him, that reflects our nature at that moment. Like coming up the throne for "judgment". It's not a one time event, it's a continuing nature to Nature meeting and transformation brought on by His Nature.
So if, at that moment, our "reflection" comes up short of the perfect image of Christ we are striving to have formed in us, the law of sowing and reaping comes into play, providing the lesson needed (wrath) to bring correction.
This is essentially what happens when we "miss Him" in something, and we feel like His presence has withdrawn from us. He will never leave us nor forsake us, but are shown the "image" needed to bring correction. Once repentance comes, we feel His presence again. He never really left, just our perception was changed. Blessings....
Tony N amen. If God is angry everyday, I think what would be needed....is reconciliation. Good thing it pleased God to reconcile all and make peace by the blood of the cross (or so the Bible says).
There is reason for me to believe that the concept of love and hate is, to God, more of an action rather than an emotion. Not to say that love and hate is not an emotion, but that much indication in scripture suggests that "love and hate" are more in accord with the decisions we make on the inside and actions we do on the outside. I have more on that here if anyone is interested. I couldn't post everything on it in a thread because it would be a spamming. :laughing7:
http://mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html
Good post indeed Tony, and Seth, good link :thumbsup:.
What I find fascinating is the complete turn around from Scripture the majority of people teach and believe...............
Gods anger endures but a moment while His mercy is forever, Scripture says.
Yet the majority teach and believe that His anger endures forever (eternal torment) while His mercy lasts only a very short time (consider the majority that we are told that God gives up on after only a relatively few years).
This totally baffles me, yet it really doesn't.
I like to put this before people..............
There is pride, arrogance, ignorance, rebelliousness, hardheartedness, unbelief and so on in operation within and without. Then there is Love. Which of these 'forces' will endure the longest? Which of these powers will outlast the others? The one that lasts the longest will win!!!!!
Hint...............Love never fails. God is Love. Love is eternal. Love doesn't play fair, Love already had a headstart over all the other forces because Love is eternal (no beginning and no end!).
cp
Quote from: claypot on June 20, 2009, 03:36:28 PM
Which of these powers will outlast the others? The one that lasts the longest will win!!!!!
It's not really that Gods sense of justice is overruled by His love. Or He lost His justice.
His justice has a corrective goal. Once that goal is reached there is nothing to correct anymore.
So justice is still very much alive (I do not change) but there is nothing left that requires justice.
:2c:
WoW CP,
Another one hit out of the park!
Seems like this claypot is going through the fire to became fine porcelain.