Tentmaker Forum

Well, this whole concept of Eternal torture was only a concept that I had really learned about nearly two years ago, due to dealing with Generalized Anxiety Disorder.  It seemed like the more literature I had read regaurding the "Pains of Hell", my anxiety would just get worse, which caused my mind to become more Dogmatic.  Once my anxiety got to the point I had started going through medical treatment for this problem, but really did not actually start well recovery until I had said "NO" to all that Dogma I had acquired through Fundamentalist Catholicism. 
-Difficulty getting past the ideas of people who claimed they went to hell, such as St. Faustina, patients of Surgeon Maurice Rawlings, and Bill Weise. 
-Difficulty from qoutes from theologians such as Augustine, Ligouri, Aquintas, Calvin, Tertullian, Edwards, ect.
-Passages from scriptures claiming the existence of eternal torture.
-The Philosophy that a temporary hell would eliminate personal responsibility to avoid sin, does not take sin seriously, interferes with our free will, and that offending God deserves infinite punishment. 

Did anyone else have problems getting past these ideals?  How long did it take to finally get the message of Universalism to sink in?

 :cloud9: I didn't have the trauma from it so many on here have expressed, but that's because I was devoid of religious training for the most part. So for me, it was not a big deal to let go of it, having never really embraced it in the first place. Everyone's experience is a little different. Just keep reading the Word with accurate translations of words, and it will eventually get down into your spirit man. Blessings...

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM
Well, this whole concept of Eternal torture was only a concept that I had really learned about nearly two years ago, due to dealing with Generalized Anxiety Disorder.  It seemed like the more literature I had read regaurding the "Pains of Hell", my anxiety would just get worse, which caused my mind to become more Dogmatic.  Once my anxiety got to the point I had started going through medical treatment for this problem, but really did not actually start well recovery until I had said "NO" to all that Dogma I had acquired through Fundamentalist Catholicism. 
-Difficulty getting past the ideas of people who claimed they went to hell, such as St. Faustina, patients of Surgeon Maurice Rawlings, and Bill Weise. 
-Difficulty from qoutes from theologians such as Augustine, Ligouri, Aquintas, Calvin, Tertullian, Edwards, ect.
-Passages from scriptures claiming the existence of eternal torture.
-The Philosophy that a temporary hell would eliminate personal responsibility to avoid sin, does not take sin seriously, interferes with our free will, and that offending God deserves infinite punishment. 

Did anyone else have problems getting past these ideals?  How long did it take to finally get the message of Universalism to sink in?

I never had a problem getting past the ideas that contradicted what I was brought up with I had a greater struggle getting past the emotions attached to fellowship and the fear of losing that if I didn't generally agree with an eternal hell.   I found it quite odd that you can disagree on many levels when it comes to scripture without losing that fellowship with believers in most churches.  As long as you remain intact in the general belief that right now there are people in hell, you can say some of the most outlandish BS in churches.

But the second you seriously promote your belief that all are saved,  it will be over. 

Heaven and hell, according to the Scriptures are two inflectional points of an apparent path; life and death, not eternal torment.

This is that, which I first received!

peacemaker

willieH: Hi UC... :hithere:

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM
Well, this whole concept of Eternal torture was only a concept that I had really learned about nearly two years ago, due to dealing with Generalized Anxiety Disorder.  It seemed like the more literature I had read regaurding the "Pains of Hell", my anxiety would just get worse, which caused my mind to become more Dogmatic. Once my anxiety got to the point I had started going through medical treatment for this problem, but really did not actually start well recovery until I had said "NO" to all that Dogma I had acquired through Fundamentalist Catholicism.

FIRST -- might I praise the Lord that He has led you OUT of this RELIGIOUS WILDERNESS...  When ANY "teaching" leads one to seek MEDICAL TREATMENT due to ANXIETIES it has presented to the mental state, well...  It becomes pretty obvious that it is TAINTED in such as way as to NOT be related to the doings of LOVE.  One does not need to RECOVER from LOVE...  :mshock:

SECOND -- Think about it UC... Through the teaching of HELL, ...was a report of LOVE (which is what GOD IS -- 1 John 4:8) being related to you?  It does not take a "rocket scientist" to recognize that LOVE is hardly part of this teaching.  

So sorry you were dragged to such extremes brother...  :sigh:

And that it contains FEAR, and PERFECT [God] LOVE is in the business of CASTING OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- then how could "HELL" be a part of the MESSAGE of LOVE and PEACE?  

For the GOSPEL is ENTITLED -- the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20 --  "HELL" promotes the OPPOSITE of LOVE [God] and PEACE!

Like many others here, ...the concept of HELL was one I questioned from my spiritual beginning, simply because it just did not match up to so MANY things said of GOD in His WORD, such as ---> the WORD claims that He is ALL MERCIFUL, and that His "mercy" ENDURES FOREVER... How does this match up with HELL?

How about PAIN and suffering and sorrow "passing away"?  If HELL were to exist in ANY CAPACITY for ANY DURATION... how can these be reported to be "passed away"?

Not to mention the obvious absence of JUSTICE in the proposition of HELL -- How can ANY crime which was accomplished in MOMENTS (in the physical), be worthy of UNENDING TORMENT (in the spirit)?  :mshock:  

Furthermore, where is the JUST and LOGICAL balance found upon this "SCALE"?  :dontknow:  God's WORD implores us to REASON with Him, yet this teaching is COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE! -- Isaiah 1:18 -- so how can it possibly find it origin IN HIM?

That is only the beginning.  I spent almost 20yrs in the Salvation Army.  I worked for the organization and believed strongly in the sincerity of its outreach which reaches out to man world-wide, ...but in all that time, ...one pastor after another met my questions about HELL with --  :blahgreen: HIM-HAW  :blah: -- instead of REASONABLE and SCRIPTURAL answers which found ALIGNMENT with LOVE!

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM-Difficulty getting past the ideas of people who claimed they went to hell, such as St. Faustina, patients of Surgeon Maurice Rawlings, and Bill Weise.

Many people testify of "seeing things"... but have they actually "seen them"?  And if these "went to HELL"... and HELL is ETERNAL, ...how in the "Hell" did they --- come back from it?  If these were designated for an "appearance" in HELL, then what are they doing back here?

It is quite easy to expose LIARS... just present their own arguement to them  :dontknow: (i.e. --- they "went" to HELL and their teaching is that all that go to HELL -- STAY there for ETERNITY)...  

Where do they found IN SCRIPTURE, that some get a "glimpse of" or "visit" HELL, and then get to come back from it?  Ask them, but don't hold your breath while they (in vain) look for a SCRIPTURAL foundation to support this EVIL NONSENSE... :rolleye:

The TRUTH is that their IMAGINATIONS are DARKENED -- Rom 1:21 -- by their own FEAR which is NOT PERFECT in LOVE -- 1 John 4:18

They GLORIFY GOD NOT... in presenting this HORRIBLE "HELLISH" destiny to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES... in His name, they come DECIEVING MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- for which they shall find deep SORROW and SHAME -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Rev 3:18

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM-Difficulty from qoutes from theologians such as Augustine, Ligouri, Aquintas, Calvin, Tertullian, Edwards, ect.

These men, are potentially FALLIBLE... do not EVER trust the "quotes" of men... If those "quotes" are not founded in the WORD, and ALIGNED with IT, ...then they are misrepresentations OF IT...

As I have stated previously... what GLORY is found in HELL?  LOVE?  PEACE?  JUSTICE?  PURPOSE?  ALL of God's WORD testifies to LOVE, PEACE, JUSTICE and PURPOSE which end up in GLORY!

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM-Passages from scriptures claiming the existence of eternal torture.

Are there really, ...any?   :JCThink:  Such AS ____?  :Chinscratch:  

Bring some of them up UC... I will be happy to discuss them with you...  :mwink:

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AM-The Philosophy that a temporary hell would eliminate personal responsibility to avoid sin, does not take sin seriously, interferes with our free will, and that offending God deserves infinite punishment.

There are several problems here...

(1) where does it state IN SCRIPTURE that we are "personally responsible" for SIN?
(2) where does it state IN SCRIPTURE that we have "free will"?
(3) where does it state IN SCRIPTURE that offending God "deserves infinite punishment?

Do you see the HEARSAY in these?  If these are not supported in SCRIPTURE, then they are MANufactured ASIDE FROM IT.

(1) GOD brought each of us upon the earth KNOWING BEFOREHAND, ...EVERYTHING that we would do. Yet brought us here regardless.

(2) GOD designed and created the parameters of SIN and EVIL.  And thrust us into this life, CONCLUDED in SIN:

1 Cor 15:22 -- ALL in ADAM die...
Rom 11:32 -- we have NO "choice" but UNBELIEF...
Rom 14:23 -- whatsoever is NOT of FAITH is SIN...
Rom 3:23 -- ALL have sinned, so all SIN...
Heb 12:2 -- We cannot even "have faith" until it is "authored" in us by CHRIST
John 6:44 -- No man CAN come until GOD decides to BRING him to CHRIST

(3) If we are concluded ...BY GOD... to SIN... And HE designed US and the WHOLE PROGRAM we are IN, ...how can it be said that He has not PURPOSED it to be so?  And if HE PURPOSED His SON to Save the "LOST" (ALL are "LOST"), can we ever CONSIDER that He shall He fail to do so?  :mshock:

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 01, 2010, 06:23:19 AMDid anyone else have problems getting past these ideals?  How long did it take to finally get the message of Universalism to sink in?

These are "ideas" of MEN, UC... which are NOT Scripturally based or supported.  If you seek the PEACE of TRUTH and LOVE... then seek that which IS supported by the WORD.  In doing so, THAT will get you past the lying and false religious ramblings of Babylonian men which have confounded your heart.

The ONLY PERFECT and COMPLETE result of YHVH GOD, sending His Son to SAVE -- Luke 19:10 -- the WORLD He SO LOVES -- John 3:16 -- (He STILL does LOVE the WORLD, for He does not change)... is that the final TOTAL of those SAVED ...is ALL...  :bgdance:

Once one finds the LIGHT of truth, and leaves his/her own SELFISHNESS behind (noting that he/she is saved but others are not)... and sees the WORLD through the eyes of GOD which (FOREVER) SO LOVES IT... then the "message" will finally, "sink in"...

:Peace: be unto you, brother UC...