Galatians

[ed]

Grace, Law, or both?

I'll make a statement, please refute it.

You can either have Christ or the Law, not both. That is what Galatians is saying.

[Seth]

I agree only with understanding that "works of the Law" are in no way to be confused with "good works." Christ leads his people to do good works which make them righteous, but works of the Law make nobody righteous. Being free from the Law should not be confused with being free from obedience to Christ. That confusion is all too prevalent in Christian theology, unfortunately.

[ed]

I'm in quotes:

I'm just reading Galatians in black and white. It says that I am not under the law.

So do you understand what that means? What law? Paul defines himself if you don't take him out of context. You are not under the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is simple. It states that if you sin, you die. Christ freed us from this law by taking our sin on Himself and paying the penalty for us by dying. We are free from the condemnation of sin, or as the Bible puts it, breaking THE Law (Torah). Not free from obeying the Law. If He freed us from having to obey the Law then there was no reason to die and there was no reason to ever institute the law in the first place. But the Law was not given to condemn people. It was given because it defines who God is. He is perfect. And so is His Law.

Paul is very clear in Galatians. It is not hard to understand. I'm quoting it word for word in context. If you have a teaching to add about history, say on. I'm listening.

And you are ignoring Peter's warning that Paul is hard to understand and that people who don't know the Law twist what he says and become Law-less. Exactly what you are doing. Paul is NOT easy to understand. From a theological perspective, it does take a rocket scientist to figure out. Paul was the rocket scientist of the Torah world and his letters are deeper than deep to understand. Especially so when 2000 years removed from the situations they were addressing.

Messiah scolded the scribes and Pharisees for "teaching the commandments of men as the commandments of God", for "traditions of the elders", and nullifying the true commandmets of God by their traditions. Paul calls this the "works of the law". These same phrases are mentioned in the Dead Sea scrolls as both "works of the law" directly and the traditions of the fathers/elders. The Jews of that time, who didn't believe in Messiah, kept a mulititude of rules and regulations that were not part of God's instructions and in some cased contradicted His instructions. And, they considered the breaking of these non God commandments to be a sin. They were not.

When Paul confronts Peter about "living as a Jew" he is speaking the keeping of these "traditions of the elders" as if they were real commandments. Not because he was keeping the real commandments of the Torah. Additionally, it was taught that keeping commandments could earn one their salvation.

Paul said on multiple occasions that he did not break either the law of God or of Caesar. What he did do was teach against the false "works of the law", just as Messiah did. Today these laws are called the "Oral Law" and are studied as the Talmud.

He must be kept in context.

[Seth]

Hi Ed,
Not sure how to read the above post as the quotes were not mine and you say they are yours. Were you responding to your own words? I'm a bit confused, my apologies. Can you clarify?

Paul always set these two things in contrast from eachother:

Letter vs Spirit

Which one of these makes us conformable to the morality God wants his people to have? It's the Spirit which comes by faith, which breaks the internal bond to sin in the mind, and causes a change in works. The Law is not of faith and will always result in failure.

[Seth]

Here is the difference between "works of the Law" and "good works"


Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Faith......working......through love.

Paul then continues:

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (zoikes! So the point of faith is to not fulfil the lust of the flesh....)
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Watch this. This is HUGE:

Galatians 5
18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

So....IF....IF, ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the Law. The converse? IF ye be NOT led of the Spirit, ye ARE under the Law and the Law will be rightfully accusing one of all the things listed there in verses 19 through 21.


Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

And they that are NOT Christ's have NOT crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts....Galatians 5 is a MASTERPIECE of understanding.

[ed]

Hi Ed,
Not sure how to read the above post as the quotes were not mine and you say they are yours. Were you responding to your own words? I'm a bit confused, my apologies. Can you clarify?

Paul always set these two things in contrast from eachother:

Letter vs Spirit

Which one of these makes us conformable to the morality God wants his people to have? It's the Spirit which comes by faith, which breaks the internal bond to sin in the mind, and causes a change in works. The Law is not of faith and will always result in failure.

Sorry Seth, I was posting at the same time you were.   I was posting from another forum.  I finally got the guy to say something.  Pretty deep for me.  Still working through it.

Thanks,
Ed

[ed]

Galatians 5
18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

That is a huge If.

Thanks Seth.

[Seth]

No problem. The confusion tends to be that because Paul is telling the church not to be circumcised to be Christ's people, means he is telling them not to be obedient at all. Some Christians interpret the Gospel this way. Paul is simply saying, don't seek life from the Law, but from the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

That's Paul's main point. Do we receive the promise of the Spirit because we obey the Law? Circumcision? Sacrificing sheep? No, of course not. They received it because they believed. But his point in Galatians 5 is what happens AFTER they receive the Spirit. That's what righteousness by faith - and not by works of the Law - is all about.

[ed]

Do I have to study Judaism to even have a conversation with someone who "knows the law".  I know Christianity, but I would not say that I know the law.

.

[JulieTang84]

Do I have to study Judaism to even have a conversation with someone who "knows the law".  I know Christianity, but I would not say that I know the law.

.

I would suggest that by knowing christianity you would be well versed in much of the LAW. Let's not forget the law of thinthing and the many "expected" traditions that have been morphed into regulations.

Jesus said much on this:.........

Mark 7
6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.'b
8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions."

9And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observec your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,'d and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.'e 11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

I am Fathers child and a brother to Christ, I no longer consider myself a christian because of their mockery for the one who gave them life.

Works from the heart are not works and living in Fathers love is freedom personified. Psalm 23.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

If He freed us from having to obey the Law then there was no reason to die and there was no reason to ever institute the law in the first place. But the Law was not given to condemn people. It was given because it defines who God is. He is perfect. And so is His Law.

This is the confusion. He did free us from having to obey the Law, but not from obeying Himself. I believe it can also be cleared up with Romans 2:

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ok, so how does that work? How can we justified by being doers of the Law while also not being under it? Here is the answer:

Romans 2
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

There it is. Gentiles - who were formerly not considered Jews due to lack of circumcision - are given the Spirit because of faith. This causes them to INSTINCTIVELY do the things of the Law, like not coveting, not stealing etc. Therefore, they become a law unto themselves, obedient to God without being under the Law of Moses.

The Jews of that day had a BIG problem with that.

Nevertheless, as Paul states:

Romans 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Bada-bing. That's everything. Take that, Judaizers. See, Paul understood that the circumcision pushers were violating many parts of the Law, like coveting etc, all the parts that had to do with Love, they violated it. But the uncircumcized Gentiles with the Holy Spirit were loving their neighbors and therefore, were not only keeping the "do not covet" commandment, but also the circumcision commandment, if inwardly. They were keeping the whole law.....instinctively.

[JulieTang84]

Bada-bing. That's everything. Take that, Judaizers. See, Paul understood that the circumcision pushers were violating many parts of the Law, like coveting etc, all the parts that had to do with Love, they violated it. But the uncircumcized Gentiles with the Holy Spirit were loving their neighbors and therefore, were not only keeping the "do not covet" commandment, but also the circumcision commandment, if inwardly. They were keeping the whole law.....instinctively.

And don't you know that the very same thing is going on to day, with the many self righteous puffed up would be followers of Christ who look down on others with varying degrees of disgust, anger even sadness. When all Jesus ever did was look upon the down trodden and the ignorant with LOVE. It seems so absolutely clear to me that I am amazed that even you have not realized this Seth, with ll you talk of tongue of Fire of Gehenna (which I really appreciate) but even more so with your words of Paul. Jesus condemned NOT the ignorant, but the very ones who sought to act as Father and position themselves above anyone and everyone else.

Jesus sought no such thing.

Phil 2:1-4 (Phi) Now if you have known anything of Christ's encouragement and of his reassuring love; if you have known something of the fellowship of his Spirit, and of compassion and deep sympathy, do make my joy complete--live together in harmony, live together in love, as though you had only one mind and spirit between you. Never act from motives of rivalry or personal vanity, but in humility think more of each other than you do of yourselves. None of you should think only of his own affairs, but consider other people's interests also.

Phil 2:3-4 (TEB) Don't do anything from selfish ambition, or from a cheap desire to boast; but be humble towards each other, never thinking you are better than others. And look out for each other's interests, not just for your own.

Phil 2:5-8 (Phi) Let your attitude to life be that of Christ Jesus himself. For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his privileges as God's equal, but stripped himself of every advantage by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born a man. And, plainly seen as a human being, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, to the point of death, and the death he died was that of a common criminal. That is why God has lifted him to the heights, and has given him the name beyond all names.

Christians by nature see and consider themselves better than "those people" because "they" have been saved.

I have asked this before: Saved from what????  Jesus told his followers to become as little children for a reason. Why? Because they Love without condition and trust without question.

Isn't anyone by even seeing a line between those who profess to know Christ and those who do not, acknowledging the law? It's not easy loving someone who looks upon one with abject disdain, but Love them we must
.
Many may be shocked to learn one day that one who professed Jesus least with their mouth, might have expressed him most perfectly with their hearts.

This has always been a foundation stone of my faith. Father knows this for even as a young child I was berated for having concern for the gentiles of the day.

Jesus warned in Luke 12:48

But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

It is my understanding that we are not going to given account for "what" we profess to know, but by how we "Loved." Most importantly, who we loved (Like Jesus) and how many spiritual fruits we bore. The lowly and the meek have always been Jesus's.

Just sharing what is me.  :girlheart:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

This is the confusion. He did free us from having to obey the Law, but not from obeying Himself. I believe it can also be cleared up with Romans 2:

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Ok, so how does that work? How can we justified by being doers of the Law while also not being under it? Here is the answer:

Romans 2
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

There it is. Gentiles - who were formerly not considered Jews due to lack of circumcision - are given the Spirit because of faith. This causes them to INSTINCTIVELY do the things of the Law, like not coveting, not stealing etc. Therefore, they become a law unto themselves, obedient to God without being under the Law of Moses.

The Jews of that day had a BIG problem with that.

Nevertheless, as Paul states:

Romans 2
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Bada-bing. That's everything. Take that, Judaizers. See, Paul understood that the circumcision pushers were violating many parts of the Law, like coveting etc, all the parts that had to do with Love, they violated it. But the uncircumcized Gentiles with the Holy Spirit were loving their neighbors and therefore, were not only keeping the "do not covet" commandment, but also the circumcision commandment, if inwardly. They were keeping the whole law.....instinctively.

I should have mentioned that I LOVED reading this. Perfect!


Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[ed]

Wow Julie and Seth.

I get more then what I ask for here.

I got some good stuff over there too.  The deeper things are still in play.  All parties involved are enjoying the fire.

Thanks for your careful answers.  Utterly perfect.

.

[Seth]

I should have mentioned that I LOVED reading this. Perfect!

Thank you  :bigGrin:

When all Jesus ever did was look upon the down trodden and the ignorant with LOVE. It seems so absolutely clear to me that I am amazed that even you have not realized this Seth, with all you talk of tongue of Fire of Gehenna (which I really appreciate) but even more so with your words of Paul. Jesus condemned NOT the ignorant, but the very ones who sought to act as Father and position themselves above anyone and everyone else.

I feel I must ask for clarification on this. Do you think I am preaching condemnation? To me, Jesus reserved condemnation for people who rejected the truth, because condemnation is censuring, or expressing disapproval. He did that. For others, who were open and listening to him, he stayed with them and talked to them. But, he was always pretty clear about what he came for, and what people need from him concerning sin.

It is my understanding that we are not going to given account for "what" we profess to know, but by how we "Loved." Most importantly, who we loved (Like Jesus) and how many spiritual fruits we bore. The lowly and the meek have always been Jesus's.

Yes, this is probably still a disagreement between us. I believe what we profess to know and how we love work together as one. It's like I say with the example of the tree from Romans 11 and John 15.

Belief grafts us to the Tree.
Bearing fruit of love keeps us on the tree.

That is what I have come to see.

[JulieTang84]

 :friendstu: Though you and I rarely see the same thing exactly the same, we seem to differ most on schematics than we do on Father  :HeartThrob:

No, Sir. I was not accusing you for preaching condemnation. Rather, I was pointing out who it was that Jesus condemned. The one's who had no idea what the truth was, were the same ones who eagerly sought after it. However, the ones who were verbose in the Law, rejected Jesus; long before he rejected them. In fact, if one of them had turned away from the law, towards Him; Jesus would have held out his arms. I see the similitude with those of old and those of today. Jesus (I am sure) would attract the drug addicts, the alcoholics, even the prostitutes, today just as long ago, because these are searching for something they cannot find, but they will know what it is the moment they see Jesus. That is if He comes before Father brings them to Him.

The so called Christians who have condemned the likes of these, Jesus will like wise condemn. Just as he said:  "Don't judge others, and God won't judge you. Don't be hard on others, and God won't be hard on you. Forgive others, and God will forgive you." Luke 6:37

Do you mean professing what we know verbally? Or through how we live and love, bearing fruit, sowing seeds of Love and shining light. If it is the former, sadly we are in disagreement.  :sigh:

Love conquers Fear through Trust.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Psalm 56:3-4 ESV
When I am afraid, I put my trust in you. In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I shall not be afraid. What can flesh do to me?

Christ's Example of Humility

Philippians 2
2 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lights in the World

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

I believe with all my heart and soul that our actions will speak louder than anything we can say to Father, except for perhaps a heartfelt. THANK YOU!!!!!! :dsunny: Not that I am saying that we should remain silent, far from it. Just that whatever we say should be "seen first" in our actions. Things like our Joy, LOVE, Hope, Trust, Compassion, Patience, Forgiveness, etc.

Hopefully we are in full agreement!!!!   :girlheart:

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
     

[Seth]

Do you mean professing what we know verbally? Or through how we live and love, bearing fruit, sowing seeds of Love and shining light. If it is the former, sadly we are in disagreement.  :sigh:

I think verbally as well, which is why belief in your heart and confessing with your mouth is so important. For example, I wouldn't join a Buddhist commune, take part in their ceremonies, pretend that I believe as they do, then leave having been silent about Christ. I am not saying people must say "Jesus" with every word, but to me it seems clear that Paul became all things to all people....in order to win some.

If some are not won, professing with the mouth is how they may hear and believe, for by belief we are grafted to the Tree, but by fruit we stay on the Tree.

But beware, it can make people angry.

[JulieTang84]

I think verbally as well, which is why belief in your heart and confessing with your mouth is so important. For example, I wouldn't join a Buddhist commune, take part in their ceremonies, pretend that I believe as they do, then leave having been silent about Christ. I am not saying people must say "Jesus" with every word, but to me it seems clear that Paul became all things to all people....in order to win some.

If some are not won, professing with the mouth is how they may hear and believe, for by belief we are grafted to the Tree, but by fruit we stay on the Tree.

But beware, it can make people angry.

Yes you and I seeing things differently  :friendstu: But that is what keeps this all interesting. You can only know what you are given to know and likewise with me.  :girlheart:

I do best by Living the Love that Father has so kindly given me. By showing kindness and interest in just about everyone I meet. I hope (impossible on this forum) I am judged by who I am, not of my conviction of belief. Seth, please know that I live by the faith and love that is in my heart. This is how I best demonstrate the Spirit of TRUTH within me, by sowing seeds of the spirit where ever I go.

I don't know how Paul sowed, or how Apollos watered, but I do know that Father causes one to come to Jesus. I am thankfully not responsible. If I was attending a Buddhist commune, I would be first very respectful of their belief as I am sure they would be of mine, if they attended my church. I would certainly be very interested in learning what brings these wonderful people such peace and tranquility.

Do I believe that the Buddhists demonstrate their faith through their every action? I most certainly do, just as I KNOW Jesus demonstrated His faith through his every action. Many Christians (not saying you) ignore how Jesus lived and concentrate solely on the "talking" Jesus walked the talk and talked the walk. His Father spoke through him, in fact He gave Father credit for everything, even forgiving the very ones who killed him, asking (pleading) with Father to do the same. Jesus, never said a word against them.
 
Sowing Spiritual Seeds is a blast!!!! and I NEVER upset anyone.  :girlheart:

1 Corinthians 3:6   I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

If I ever speak of Father, I speak of how He turned my Life around. Of how He bought me Peace and Love. Of how He told me to: "Don't Forget LOVE!" This brings me joy just saying this and gives credence to my actions. Most people reject Father because of the lies that have been told by christian leaders. I seek to clear the muddy water first.

I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

If I was attending a Buddhist commune, I would be first very respectful of their belief as I am sure they would be of mine, if they attended my church. I would certainly be very interested in learning what brings these wonderful people such peace and tranquility.

As with Christianity, not all Buddhism is alike. Zen Buddhism relies alot on chanting and meditation, whereas Tibetan Buddhism relies alot on very complex rituals and rules resembling Catholicism. This is based on what I have read which isn't extensive.

In any case, I would not advocate for disrespect, but on the other hand, I don't take talking about Christ to be disrespectful. But I do believe that the early church was persecuted by both Pagans and Jews because they preached Christ. They were at peace with everyone, but not everyone was at peace with them.

Again, I am not saying that you have to go around preaching wherever you go. But, what I am saying is that if I were in a Buddhist commune I would probably not blend very well because I would not be able to participate in their practices without at least bringing up Christ's name, lest they take my actions for agreement. They would know that it's because I believe that Christ is Lord and we could probably leave it at that. But just that alone could get blowback in some circles.

[ed]

If I ever speak of Father, I speak of how He turned my Life around. Of how He bought me Peace and Love. Of how He told me to: "Don't Forget LOVE!" This brings me joy just saying this and gives credence to my actions. Most people reject Father because of the lies that have been told by christian leaders. I seek to clear the muddy water first.

I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Squeezed that last little bit out before bed!   :laughing7:

Doctrine wears me down.  I get consumed by seeking answers.  I'm not present for others with all of my searching.  The simplicity of love always comes back.  Love healed us.  Only love takes us where we want to go.

[ded2daworld]

I thought this doctrine was simple.
We are not under the law of sin and death
We are under the law of love in Christ Jesus.

So it's incorrect to say I'm under law or I'm not under law. We are under a different law than
everyone else.
Their laws are all don't do this, don't do that.
Our law is more do this do that for love is an action verb,
A dead person obeys the law of sin and death perfectly only by dying where he/she no longer commits an offense
We are the opposite in the sense that our offense is to see a need for love and do nothing.

[micah7:9]

Rom 8:1  There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

[marie glen]

the sermon on the mount (surely?) clearly shows fulfilling "the law" is not good enough..

grace / God's Spirit (since God is the only source of goodness) is the POWER to transform

"mixing law with Grace" greatly dilutes and diminishes the POWER oF God to [1] convince and [2] to transform

throwing one back upon the tutor/babysitter til one matures, the law, back upon "the beggarly elements" - futile for the most part.. tho the Spirit did help old testament saints, such as Zechariah and Elizabeth, parents of John the Baptist..

Grace convinces and allows one to "draw near to the Throne of God to get the very help we need" - The Law does not enter, and stands in the door preventing others from entering.. woe?!

At Jesus' return such ones will be saved, but "so as by fire" and "their works will be burned up"...

instead of shying away either thru not 'being good enough' (as if we are this side of resurrection!) or because of pride "thank you God I'm not like that other sinner over there" - hangin' out with God, He rubs off on us! "God is love" "Love works no ill" "Love is the fulfilling of the law" instead of do not murder being 'good enough' do not be angry with a fellow person for no reason, i.e. hate or dis-like.. "love". True overflowing love is to be the fruit growing within. (Jn chapter 15- He is the vine, we are the branches, the fruit grows by abiding)

:icon_flower: :smile: God bless!

[rosered]

Hey ya 'all
 

   
 
Grace, Law, or both?

I'll make a statement, please refute it.

You can either have Christ or the Law, not both. That is what Galatians is saying.






  For me Pauls is just expounding on           '' who can  and does keep the law ''?
and the difference  between    the carnal mind that can never keep the law of God 
  they are enemies  with the Spirit

    and the regenerate     mind of Christ   who does keep the Spiritual law 

  grace is somthing  given when your  striving   1. To exert much effort or energy; endeavor. 2. To struggle or fight forcefully; contend: strive against      your old carnal nature

when we are born  naturally    its of the carnal nature  being first  , first birth


we have to be born again  Like  a second birth   , Like Jesus was explaining this to Nicodemus   in john 3    to me that is the one , the Christ [annoited by Holy Spirit  ]  in you   that  can and does keep the Law of God writen in  your heart     

  most of the battles are within  us I do believe , the carnal nature like to pretend its holy , but its just play acting   , that is Why Jesus was able to say  , My Word has no place in you 

  you are of your father the devil  born of  below , being earthly sensual and devilish   in nature  [hypocrit  means to play  as an  actor ]
all those woes are for    the   hypocrits 


  Jesus was born from above
not regenerate <the unregenerate condition of humanity> un·re·gen·er·ate  (ŭn′rĭ-jĕn′ər-ĭt)
adj.
1.
a. Not spiritually renewed or reformed; not repentant.
b. Sinful; dissolute.
2.
a. Not reconciled to change; unreconstructed.
b. Stubborn; obstinate.

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not regenerate; not spiritually reborn or converted Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

regeneration
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:3-7)

Regeneration is the spiritual transformation in a person, brought about by the Holy Spirit, that brings the individual from being spiritually dead to become a spiritually alive human being. Regeneration is another way of speaking about the new birth or the second birth or being born again.


This subjective change worked in one's soul by the grace of God is variously designated in Scripture as a new birth, a resurrection, a new life, a new creature, a renewing of the mind, a dying to sin and living to righteousness, a translation from darkness to light, etc. In theological language, it is called regeneration, renovation, and conversion. These terms are often used interchangeably.

According to Hodge's Systematic Theology, the word regeneration is used almost universally to refer to the instantaneous change from spiritual death to spiritual life. He says it is not used to designate "the whole work of sanctification, nor the first stages of that work comprehended in conversion, much less justification or any mere external change of state." In calling it a spiritual resurrection—the beginning of a new life, Hodge adds, "Sometimes the word expresses the act of God. God regenerates. Sometimes it designates the subjective effect of his act" (emphasis added).

   found this   and loved  what it was saying better than I can say it 



  for me the purpose of the  true church/ body of Christ  is to  be  birthing Children[sons of God ]  though Jesus to God    they keep all the LAW   and its by LOVE   , you can only LOVE   by the Spirit of God  in you though Jesus Christ , I   dont think  there is any  other way around it   :friendstu:

[dajomaco]

I thought this doctrine was simple.
We are not under the law of sin and death
We are under the law of love in Christ Jesus.

So it's incorrect to say I'm under law or I'm not under law. We are under a different law than
everyone else.
Their laws are all don't do this, don't do that.
Our law is more do this do that for love is an action verb,
A dead person obeys the law of sin and death perfectly only by dying where he/she no longer commits an offense
We are the opposite in the sense that our offense is to see a need for love and do nothing.

A dead person obeys the law of sin and death perfectly.
God made away where there was no way.
The way was made perfect.