Tentmaker Forum

26 For as often as you are eating this bread and drinking this cup, you are announcing the Lord's death until He should be coming.
27 So that, whoever should be eating the bread or drinking the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be liable for the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 Now let a man test himself first, and thus let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord.
30 Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing.
31 For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??

Any input would be awesome. Thanks guys!

Condemned and judged have the same meaning.

Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined  by the Lord, that we may not be judged with the world.

I read it this way: We ought to be judged with the world but that judging is no longer needed because we are being disciplined.

Quote from: Tim B on September 04, 2009, 10:59:01 PM
26 For as often as you are eating this bread and drinking this cup, you are announcing the Lord's death until He should be coming.
27 So that, whoever should be eating the bread or drinking the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be liable for the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 Now let a man test himself first, and thus let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord.
30 Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing.
31 For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??

Any input would be awesome. Thanks guys!

Greek doesn't have as many words as English, as far as I know. English is one of the languages with the most words. Due to that, there is more opportunity for nuance of meaning even among synonyms.

In one sense you are right, Jesus said "I came not to condemn (krino - judge) the world" yet God appointed Christ to judge in righteousness.

When Jesus said "I came not to judge the world" it was in response to something the Disciples wanted to do. But did they want to judge in righteousness? No. The wrath of man is not the righteousness of God.

That is the key to understanding the "judge" yet "do not judge" scriptures. Man who judges with MAN's understanding and according to MAN's discernment, should judge not. But Christ judges in righteousness..

Due to the few number of words in Greek, we must look at context to see in what manner we should judge and what manner we should not, because in languages which have fewer words have less opportunity to use synonyms to convey differences in intended meaning according to nuance.

With that in mind consider: Jesus did not come to judge the world (according to man's wrath) but that it might be saved through him (from sin, by and through the righteousness judgment of God upon his Sons and the world). God judges us, and he will judge the world, but NOT according to man's ways. However, it is better that the process occur now than later.

JMHO

QuoteDue to the few number of words in Greek

im confused?

in the greek we have: krinō,dikastēs, kritēs,anakrinō,  four greek words translated into ONE english word ""judge""

seems the greek has more, i find this alot, heck, there are 5 greek words translated into ONE english word ""prayer""

many many examples.....

chuckt

What confuses you specifically?

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:04:15 AM
What confuses you specifically?

WELL...seth....


you said the greek has fewer words, but i showed that there are FOUR greek words for our ONE english word ""judge""

chuckt

How does that affect whether or not there are less Greek words than English?

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:18:58 AM
How does that affect whether or not there are less Greek words than English?

FOUR GREEK WORDS FOR ONE ENGLISH WORD ""JUDGE""

FIVE GREEK WORDS FOR ONE ENGLISH WORD ""PRAY""

THREE OR FOUR GREEK WORDS FOR ONE ENGLISH WORD """WORLD""

FOUR OR FIVE GREEK WORDS FOR ONE  ENGLISH WORD ""TIME""'

ON AND ON I COULD GO ON.........


im not a mathamatician but seems there are more greek words and definitions than english.

i could be wrong, just trying to understand.

inlove
chuckt

I don't take that to mean that there are more Greek words than English...just that there is some inconsistent translating from the KJV.

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 12:48:19 AM
I don't take that to mean that there are more Greek words than English...just that there is some inconsistent translating   from the KJV.

no doubt.

and in fact there are about 700,000 greek words and over one million english words, but this has NOTHING to do with the scriptures.

but i will end here.

peace
chuckt

Well, because there are less words in Greek, some words are translated from a bigger bucket of english words that affect meaning even if synonymous. This is according to usage which leads to nuance. That is why looking at context can help to see how "krino" should not stand alone, but what KIND of krino should be acknowledged according to how it is being used.

In English we can simply use different but close words to do that job, so contextual analysis is much easier with English when single words can communicate nuance that way.

  That was  a good answer WW , :winkgrin:
I will thow this out there  too ..

Tim says  here ;

QuoteFor if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??

Any input would be awesome. Thanks guys!

   I thought of Jesus telling us , judge not unless you be judged
  on the same  standard we judge others, we also will  go though the same measurment  of a standard set ..
  so showing mercy { a wonderful standard to set as Jesus example ]   would work out best for all  involved   :thumbsup: hee hee
and when we judge ourselves  or let the Lord Judge us we are the better for it , all the way around
   :HeartThrob:rose

Quotetranslated from a bigger bucket of english words

HUH?....greek isnt translted FROM english. english is translated FROM greek.

you do realize there are more english words today than 200+ yrs ago? while the greek has stayed the same.

matters not, even english definitions of the same words have changed over time, while the greek remains.


best to always look up in your concordant.


peace
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on September 05, 2009, 01:10:55 AM

Quotetranslated from a bigger bucket of english words

HUH?....greek isnt translted FROM english. english is translated FROM greek.

you do realize there are more english words today than 200+ yrs ago? while the greek has stayed the same.

matters not, even english definitions of the same words have changed over time, while the greek remains.


best to always look up in your concordant.


peace
chuckt

You are right. I phrased that poorly. I meant translated USING a bigger bucket of English words. And I am not saying that is sound translating.

However, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, that is to say even if words are translated by swapping one English word for one English word (which I am also not saying is the best way) contextual analysis is important to know what the meaning is.

Example:

Joh 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to judge (krino) the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Co 11:32
But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be down-judged (katakrino) with the world.

Even when both words are translated consistently, the context shows us what KIND of judgment is being differentiated. If the Greeks language was like English, most likely, a different word would be used for one of the scriptures to communicate that nuance. Since the Greek language doesn't work that way we can look at the context to know that while Christ does not judge the world from a human wrath perspective, he does judge the world with righteousness.

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 02:16:24 AM

Quote from: chuckt on September 05, 2009, 01:10:55 AM

Quotetranslated from a bigger bucket of english words

HUH?....greek isnt translted FROM english. english is translated FROM greek.

you do realize there are more english words today than 200+ yrs ago? while the greek has stayed the same.

matters not, even english definitions of the same words have changed over time, while the greek remains.


best to always look up in your concordant.


peace
chuckt

You are right. I phrased that poorly. I meant translated USING a bigger bucket of English words. And I am not saying that is sound translating.

However, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, that is to say even if words are translated by swapping one English word for one English word (which I am also not saying is the best way) contextual analysis is important to know what the meaning is.

Example:

Joh 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to judge (krino) the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Co 11:32
But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be down-judged (katakrino) with the world.

Even when both words are translated consistently, the context shows us what KIND of judgment is being differentiated. If the Greeks language was like English, most likely, a different word would be used for one of the scriptures to communicate that nuance. Since the Greek language doesn't work that way we can look at the context to know that while Christ does not judge the world from a human wrath perspective, he does judge the world with righteousness.

thats the same word KRINO in both text, and yes we must look up the word and apply the PROPER definition of that word, as the word has multiple definitions, also being carefull to decern which definitions have been ADDED over the yrs by bias updates of said concordant.

peace
chuckt

Still not sure where you were confused?

My first message appently was written with invisible ink, so I try another explantion. :laughing7:

^KJV 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

^WW 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are set aside, we are teached by the Lord, that we should not be judged guilty with the world.

When we are tried/discerned/sued at law, we are trained/disciplined by the Lord that we might not be sentenced with this kosmos

The proper teaching of ultimate reconciliation does not deny (in fact it insists)that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"(Romans 1). The issue in question is the nature, purpose, and duration of those punishments that will be laid against the impenitent on the day. Some of those judgments are now,evident in this time(reaping what you sow) "some mens sins go before them into judgment, some follow after"(1 Tim 5:24) "do not go on judging before the time until the Lord comes to bring hidden things to light and makes manifest the counsels(motives, intentions) of the hearts(1 Cor 4:5). Some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many. No one will get out until they have "paid the last penny". Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

2Pe 3:4-7  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.  (5)  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  (6)  Whereby the world(kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(Apollumai):  (7)  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment(tribunal) and perdition of ungodly men.

1Pe 3:18-20  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,  (19)  by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,  (20)  who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
perdition(ruin) of ungodly men.


1Pe 4:4-6  Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:  (5)  Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.  (6)  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged(sentenced) according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The kosmos is the heavens and the earth.... "the world and all that is is in it" yet we see when God destroyed the kosmos that began in Geneisis 1 and ended in the flood, God did not destroy the substance of the earth but rather those living in that age were judged as men in the flesh and held unto a time(the descent of Christ into Sheol) when they, having paid their debt to society so to speak, received the gospel from Christ himself and were made alive in the spirit unto God.

1Co 5:3-5  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged (discerned/sentenced) already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,  (5)  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh(judged in the flesh as men), that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus(made alive in the spirit unto God).

Here we see the punishment of a man who has committed a serious sin, judged in the flesh as a man that he might be made alive in the spirit unto God "in the day". We do not know what stripes he may be beaten with, or perhaps the forfeiture of his life will be the extent of his punishment. He may lose "his reward".....but the reward is not eternal life as you can see in the next verse.

1Co 3:11-15  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  (12)  Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each onework will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each onework, of what sort it is.  (14)  If anyonework which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1Co 3:15 Amplified But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.

There are rewards above and beyond the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. There are punishments that range from this life, to the loss of this life, to the second death and beyond- "age lasting punishment away from the presence of the Lord". There is a lot more to be said from Scripture on the doctrine of eternal(aionios) judgement, one of the elementary principles of the oracles of God(hebrews 5:12 and 6:1-3).....milk, basics etc according to the writer of Hebrews. But this cant be a book :o)


Col 1:16-20  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  (17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.  (19)  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;  (20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Simply, God by Jesus created ALL THINGS everywhere and every when and God will by Jesus reconcile ALL THINGS everywhere and everywhen to Himself.

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Simply, this is the mystery and His kind intention(purpose)-an administration(execution of a plan by the distribution of resources- literally, stewardship) the gathering in one(KJV), summing up(NASB), the "anakephalaiomai" of
ALL THINGS.
Anything in a state of punishment forever cannot be reconciled or gathered in one. This fact alone is enough to compel a more thorough examination of the doctrine of eternal judgment.

Rom 16:25-27  Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,  (26)  but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal(aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;  (27)  to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Act 3:19-21  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;  (20)  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  (21)  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
My first message appently was written with invisible ink, so I try another explantion. :laughing7:

^KJV 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

^WW 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are set aside, we are teached by the Lord, that we should not be judged guilty with the world.

WW, you have one of the best senses of humor. LOL

The word "judged" is krino, which of course is to be chastened of the Lord. The disciples did not want to chasten, they wanted to kill. That is what Jesus did not come to the earth do do. That is how I see them being reconciled. Check out this parallel:

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be down-judged (katakrino) with the world.

Here we have "krino" but the world is said to be "KATAkrino" which means to "down" (kata) and "judge" (krino). It means to "down-judge." Compare to:

Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased (tapeinoo - to bring low, to humble); and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Since God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud, there are two roads man can take to be formed righteous: through grace which teaches us to be godly, or to be brought low, to be judged in a way that we must be made humble, which is a harder judgment. Have you ever had to be de-prided? We all have, and it's not fun. Now, since we have that dynamic of grace-to-the-humble and resistance-to-the-proud, God's method of saving the world from sin upon the proud is to bring them low, which means that Paul would rather us learn by grace through chastening, rather than being down-judged with the rest of the world.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
My first message appently was written with invisible ink, so I try another explantion. :laughing7:

^KJV 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

^WW 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are set aside, we are teached by the Lord, that we should not be judged guilty with the world.

lol Thanks for your reply, WW. I'm glad you rewrote it without invisible ink. ;)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM
When we are tried/discerned/sued at law, we are trained/disciplined by the Lord that we might not be sentenced with this kosmos

The proper teaching of ultimate reconciliation does not deny (in fact it insists)that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"(Romans 1). The issue in question is the nature, purpose, and duration of those punishments that will be laid against the impenitent on the day. Some of those judgments are now,evident in this time(reaping what you sow) "some mens sins go before them into judgment, some follow after"(1 Tim 5:24) "do not go on judging before the time until the Lord comes to bring hidden things to light and makes manifest the counsels(motives, intentions) of the hearts(1 Cor 4:5). Some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many. No one will get out until they have "paid the last penny". Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

2Pe 3:4-7  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.  (5)  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  (6)  Whereby the world(kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(Apollumai):  (7)  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment(tribunal) and perdition of ungodly men.

1Pe 3:18-20  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,  (19)  by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,  (20)  who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
perdition(ruin) of ungodly men.


1Pe 4:4-6  Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:  (5)  Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.  (6)  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged(sentenced) according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The kosmos is the heavens and the earth.... "the world and all that is is in it" yet we see when God destroyed the kosmos that began in Geneisis 1 and ended in the flood, God did not destroy the substance of the earth but rather those living in that age were judged as men in the flesh and held unto a time(the descent of Christ into Sheol) when they, having paid their debt to society so to speak, received the gospel from Christ himself and were made alive in the spirit unto God.

1Co 5:3-5  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged (discerned/sentenced) already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,  (5)  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh(judged in the flesh as men), that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus(made alive in the spirit unto God).

Here we see the punishment of a man who has committed a serious sin, judged in the flesh as a man that he might be made alive in the spirit unto God "in the day". We do not know what stripes he may be beaten with, or perhaps the forfeiture of his life will be the extent of his punishment. He may lose "his reward".....but the reward is not eternal life as you can see in the next verse.

1Co 3:11-15  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  (12)  Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each onework will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each onework, of what sort it is.  (14)  If anyonework which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1Co 3:15 Amplified But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.

There are rewards above and beyond the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. There are punishments that range from this life, to the loss of this life, to the second death and beyond- "age lasting punishment away from the presence of the Lord". There is a lot more to be said from Scripture on the doctrine of eternal(aionios) judgement, one of the elementary principles of the oracles of God(hebrews 5:12 and 6:1-3).....milk, basics etc according to the writer of Hebrews. But this cant be a book :o)


Col 1:16-20  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  (17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.  (19)  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;  (20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Simply, God by Jesus created ALL THINGS everywhere and every when and God will by Jesus reconcile ALL THINGS everywhere and everywhen to Himself.

Eph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Simply, this is the mystery and His kind intention(purpose)-an administration(execution of a plan by the distribution of resources- literally, stewardship) the gathering in one(KJV), summing up(NASB), the "anakephalaiomai" of
ALL THINGS.
Anything in a state of punishment forever cannot be reconciled or gathered in one. This fact alone is enough to compel a more thorough examination of the doctrine of eternal judgment.

Rom 16:25-27  Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,  (26)  but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal(aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;  (27)  to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Act 3:19-21  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;  (20)  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:  (21)  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Wowzorz! That's a long post! Hehe. I like what you said.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 08:09:06 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2009, 08:53:38 AM
My first message appently was written with invisible ink, so I try another explantion. :laughing7:

^KJV 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

^WW 1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are set aside, we are teached by the Lord, that we should not be judged guilty with the world.

WW, you have one of the best senses of humor. LOL

The word "judged" is krino, which of course is to be chastened of the Lord. The disciples did not want to chasten, they wanted to kill. That is what Jesus did not come to the earth do do. That is how I see them being reconciled. Check out this parallel:

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be down-judged (katakrino) with the world.

Here we have "krino" but the world is said to be "KATAkrino" which means to "down" (kata) and "judge" (krino). It means to "down-judge." Compare to:

Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased (tapeinoo - to bring low, to humble); and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Since God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud, there are two roads man can take to be formed righteous: through grace which teaches us to be godly, or to be brought low, to be judged in a way that we must be made humble, which is a harder judgment. Have you ever had to be de-prided? We all have, and it's not fun. Now, since we have that dynamic of grace-to-the-humble and resistance-to-the-proud, God's method of saving the world from sin upon the proud is to bring them low, which means that Paul would rather us learn by grace through chastening, rather than being down-judged with the rest of the world.

Thanks for the reply too Seth!  :bigGrin: What was the context that Jesus said he came to save, not judge the world? I can't find anything about the disciples wanting to kill anybody. (From looking through John 3.)

Quote from: Seth on September 05, 2009, 08:09:06 PM
The word "judged" is krino, which of course is to be chastened of the Lord. The disciples did not want to chasten, they wanted to kill. That is what Jesus did not come to the earth do do. That is how I see them being reconciled. Check out this parallel:

1 Corinthians 11:32
But when we are judged (krino), we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be down-judged (katakrino) with the world.

Well, I guess with all the meanings of a certain word it's a bit of pick and choose.
I just used the 3 primary meanings according to strong.
For me it sounds far more positive than your translation. Plus for me it follows the red thread that runs through the Bible.
Basicly I see the meaning of the verse as God declaring He will burn down the house with everyone in it next week. But during the next 7 days He makes shure the house is empty.

2919 kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning:  1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose 2) to approve, esteem, to prefer 3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion 4) to determine, resolve, decree 5) to judge 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong 5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it 5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure 5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others 6) to rule, govern 6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment 7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants 7a) to dispute 7b) in a forensic sense 7b1) to go to law, have suit at law

---

3811 paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning:  1) to train children 1a) to be instructed or taught or learn 1b) to cause one to learn 2) to chastise 2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct 2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition 2b) of God 2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities 2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge 2c1) of a father punishing his son 2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged

---

2632 katakri,nw katakrino {kat-ak-ree'-no}
Meaning:  1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment 1a) to condemn 1b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable

---

Further reading in context seems to show what exactly is meant when Jesus says he did not come to judge, but to save the world.

17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18he who is believing in him is not judged [because such a person is not loving darkness more than light], but he who is not believing hath been judged already [because such a person has already been judged, that is, acknowledged as liking darkness rather than the light], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19`And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

20for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

21but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

It seems that Jesus is actually saying that He did not come to judge, or to say, that the world loves wickedness more than righteousness. Basically, this has already been judged to be true, so there's no reason to judge it again. And from this judgement (that humans enjoy wickedness), from this human condition, Christ has come to save man from.

What do you think of this idea?

Hi Tim,

Let me start with saying that in none of the above posts my intention was to show Jesus came to judge in a negative way.
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
A clear verse. So we agree on the end result. But I think we slighty disagree on the path to that result.
God is rightous. God is just. God is merciful.
I think we shouldn't just pick out the merciful part of God's personality.
I know I'm contracdiction what I wrote a few lines above but I still think God will judge.
But I'm not saying John 3:17 is wrong. I think there is a very delicate balance here.
Throughout the Bible we see God pushing away His people (punishment/judgement/teaching) and later on He always draws them back (mercy).
When satan temped Jesus he said jump down because it's written that Gods sends angels to catch you. Jesus answered that it also is written not to tempt God. That's the balance I'm talking about.
Just as we should read a verse in context we should place that same context in the Bible context as a whole.


That is how I see it. If I would have gotten  :2c: for every mistake I would have been very wealthy :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2009, 11:41:14 PM
Hi Tim,

Let me start with saying that in none of the above posts my intention was to show Jesus came to judge in a negative way.
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
A clear verse. So we agree on the end result. But I think we slighty disagree on the path to that result.
God is rightous. God is just. God is merciful.
I think we shouldn't just pick out the merciful part of God's personality.
I know I'm contracdiction what I wrote a few lines above but I still think God will judge.
But I'm not saying John 3:17 is wrong. I think there is a very delicate balance here.
Throughout the Bible we see God pushing away His people (punishment/judgement/teaching) and later on He always draws them back (mercy).
When satan temped Jesus he said jump down because it's written that Gods sends angels to catch you. Jesus answered that it also is written not to tempt God. That's the balance I'm talking about.
Just as we should read a verse in context we should place that same context in the Bible context as a whole.


That is how I see it. If I would have gotten  :2c: for every mistake I would have been very wealthy :icon_jokercolor:

I've changed my view alot on what God's mercy is. I used to see his mercy in looking the other way when I sin. Now I see that the most merciful thing he can do for me is to judge the sin right out of me. That is where I am at understanding the mercy of God.

Tim,
I think that is a good explaination, but I also think there is more to it. Check out verse 20 of John 3:

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (rebuked).

The original question was: "How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??"

What I believe is that judgment is indeed commended to Christ, only it is not the wrath of man, but the righteousness of God. In the manner that Christ is not here to judge the world is in "destroying men's lives." He did not come to do that. But he is the righteous judge.

Hebrews 10:30-31
For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, becauseI do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

willieH: Hi Eaglesway! :hithere:

:welcome: to Tentmaker...

Before I get into my observation of your post, I would like to note that you are more than welcome to disagree with it...  But know this... please provide Scriptural basis for that disagreement, otherwise... such a disagreement is not based on the WORD, rather is based upon "feelings" which are ruffled, rather than upon what the HOLY COMMANDS of GOD instruct...

Also might I add that I mean no offense to you in my disagreement with your observations... we are all learning, if we aren't, we are stagnant... I write in hopes of giving you a different perspective to Scriptures and subject matter upon which rests your present understandings...  :friendstu:

The GOSPEL ...1st and FOREMOST... is entitled by the INSPIRED writings of YHVH God as ..."PEACE" -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20 -- so any message conveyed in bringing it (the GOSPEL), must also bring PEACE as well...  :happygrin:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM
The proper teaching of ultimate reconciliation does not deny (in fact it insists)that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"(Romans 1). The issue in question is the nature, purpose, and duration of those punishments that will be laid against the impenitent on the day.

I agree... but "impenitent" on WHAT "Day"?  To teach PUNISHMENT beyond this life is to bring a message on behalf of God which is OTHER than PEACE, and other than LOVE... for "FEAR hath TORMENT" -- 1 John 4:18

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMSome of those judgments are now,evident in this time(reaping what you sow) "some mens sins go before them into judgment, some follow after"(1 Tim 5:24) "do not go on judging before the time until the Lord comes to bring hidden things to light and makes manifest the counsels(motives, intentions) of the hearts(1 Cor 4:5). Some will be beaten with few stripes, some with many.

According to CHRIST -- John 12:31 -- the "JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is ...NOW"...

In proposing that after a "WORLD" which includes such as, CANCER, AIDS, HEART DISEASE, HURRICANES, EARTH QUAKES, TORNADOES, HEARTBREAK, FAILURES INNUMERABLE, POVERTY, STARVATION, BETRAYAL, WAR, etc... (the list of the sorrows individually and collectively is literally ENDLESS) ...that there is MORE to FOLLOW and these "stripes" are INADAQUATE punishments... is IMO missing entirely what the WORD GOSPEL and the sweet HOLINESS of DIVINE LOVE, actually means...

The above message you bring Eaglesway, is plainly and simply FEAR...  :thumbdown:

"There is NO FEAR in LOVE" -- 1 John 4:18 -- so to teach it in ANY degree is ADDING it [fear] to LOVE, and is teaching aspects OTHER than are found WITHIN LOVE... for FEAR is NOT a part of LOVE.  :dontknow:

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS not "BAD" in ANY WAY... So to make such a teaching PART of what YOU bring forth, is to specify it as PART of the "GOSPEL" for the "GOSPEL" is that which the messengers of GOD are to TEACH...

Where is the INSTRUCTION from CHRIST, to teach such things?  :dunno:

He said this -- Matt 28:19-20 -- "go ye therefore into ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU..."

Because He SPECIFICALLY noted -- "WHATSOEVER >>>I<<< Have COMMANDED YOU"... you must therefore produce a COMMAND for each "teaching" in the WORD from HIM, ...that you propose on behalf of the GOSPEL...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMNo one will get out until they have "paid the last penny". Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Please IDENTIFY the WHEN (NOW or LATER), as well as "PEACE" contained in  this "understanding"...  :dontknow:  

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM2Pe 3:4-7  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.  (5)  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  (6)  Whereby the world(kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(Apollumai):  (7)  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment(tribunal) and perdition of ungodly men.

Hmmm... The ones that PERISHED in the FLOOD... was that a FUTURE, "after THIS LIFE" type "punishment" Eaglesway?   Or was it in fact a -- NOW -- :"in THIS LIFE" type of JUDGMENT which was BROUGHT against those who PERISHED in it?

The "DAY" of ALL GENERATIONS, ...takes place in the DAY of YHVH -- Gen 2:4

The END and BEGINNING are one and the SAME, Eaglesway -- Rev 1:8

That the "Secret or Hidden" things shall be REVEALED does not bring MORE PUNISHMENT, rather exposes NAKEDNESS [In the END] -- Rev 3:18 -- which is that which occurs when one DISREGARDS the COMMAND and WORD of GOD, such as occured in the PARADISE of GOD [In the BEGINNING]  -- Gen 3:8-11

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM1Pe 3:18-20  For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,  (19)  by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,  (20)  who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
perdition(ruin) of ungodly men.

This is redundant... already addressed it...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM1Pe 4:4-6  Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:  (5)  Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.  (6)  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged(sentenced) according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Keywords in these verses are "GIVE ACCOUNT" -- which means they shall be EXPOSED for what they have done... no PUNISHMENT accompanying that EXPOSURE, for it is enough... that dear friend is what GRACE is all about!

If I am in court, and have offended and therefore am JUDGED for that OFFENSE, and YOU come on behalf of me to note to the JUDGE that YOU have already made PAYMENT for my offense, ...does this remove the fact that I have GIVEN ACCOUNT?  Even though I cannot make RESTITUTION myself, ...my deed was EXPOSED for what it was... yet GRACE stepped in and "TOOK AWAY" the UNFORGIVENESS the court would have found for that offense... and in its place... am I found, FORGIVEN!

GOD is NO REPECTER of persons (impartial)... so ALL men suffer, and via GRACE are ALL forgiven... I am sure that you expect that you shall not have to have "STRIPES" for your EARTHLY and SINFUL behaviors, right?  And that GRACE is the reason you shall not have those "stripes" -- eh?

Paul noted -- Rom 5:20 --  where SIN ABOUNDED [in every case] ...GRACE... did MUCH MORE ABOUND...

So if you percieve that YOU shall not recieve "STRIPES" beyond this life, how can you conclude that GRACE does not MUCH MORE ABOUND in the cases of OTHERS which were also SINNERS such as are YOU?  :JCThink:

GRACE does not seek to exact MORE PUNISHMENT!  

How do you explain 2 Cor 5:19, Eaglesway?  

GRACE is about FORGIVENESS for that which merits NO FORGIVENESS... THAT is what makes it GRACE, otherwise, WHAT do you percieve has ...changed... between the OLD and NEW COVENANTS? :dunno:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMThe kosmos is the heavens and the earth.... "the world and all that is is in it" yet we see when God destroyed the kosmos that began in Geneisis 1 and ended in the flood, God did not destroy the substance of the earth but rather those living in that age were judged as men in the flesh and held unto a time(the descent of Christ into Sheol) when they, having paid their debt to society so to speak, received the gospel from Christ himself and were made alive in the spirit unto God.

Sorry bro, no offense... but this is GOBBLDYGOOK... When CHRIST entered the GRAVE (sheol), He was DEAD / INERT for 3 Days and 3 Nights... He did no preaching to anyone...

This LIFE is the VALLEY of the shadow of death... This LIFE is the LOF... This LIFE is where (and when) HE PREACHED the GOSPEL unto the DEAD... :nod:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM1Co 5:3-5  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged (discerned/sentenced) already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,  (4)  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,  (5)  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh(judged in the flesh as men), that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus(made alive in the spirit unto God).

Here we see the punishment of a man who has committed a serious sin, judged in the flesh as a man that he might be made alive in the spirit unto God "in the day".

Again... we are IN the "DAY" bro... Do you know WHEN the LAST DAY (the DAY of JESUS) ...is?  If you wish to KNOW the END, go back to the BEGINNING...  :wink2:  For they (end/beginning) are ONE and the SAME.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMWe do not know what stripes he may be beaten with, or perhaps the forfeiture of his life will be the extent of his punishment. He may lose "his reward".....but the reward is not eternal life as you can see in the next verse.

1Co 3:11-15  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  (12)  Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  (13)  each onework will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each onework, of what sort it is.  (14)  If anyonework which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If anyones work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You don't see a ...conclusion... here? [hint:blue]

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PM1Co 3:15 Amplified But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.

ALL are in fact, passing through that "FIRE" NOW, bro... most do not recognize it...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMThere are rewards above and beyond the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. There are punishments that range from this life, to the loss of this life, to the second death and beyond- "age lasting punishment away from the presence of the Lord". There is a lot more to be said from Scripture on the doctrine of eternal(aionios) judgement, one of the elementary principles of the oracles of God(hebrews 5:12 and 6:1-3).....milk, basics etc according to the writer of Hebrews. But this cant be a book :o)


Col 1:16-20  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  (17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  (18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.  (19)  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;  (20)  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Simply, God by Jesus created ALL THINGS everywhere and every when and God will by Jesus reconcile ALL THINGS everywhere and everywhen to Himself.

The "RECONCILIATION" is DONE... it is not a "will be" thing, it is a DONE thing -- 2 Cor 5:18 -- that FINITE entities (such as ourselves) must pass through FINITE parameters (time) does not preclude the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS...

CHRIST was slain from the FOUNDATION of the world -- Rev 13:8 -- That TIME eventually manifest this ETERNAL FACT, did not ESTABLISH it... It was ALREADY ESTABLISHED before Creation was even performed by YHVH.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2009, 06:52:48 PMEph 1:9-10  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  (10)  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Simply, this is the mystery and His kind intention(purpose)-an administration(execution of a plan by the distribution of resources- literally, stewardship) the gathering in one(KJV), summing up(NASB), the "anakephalaiomai" of
ALL THINGS.
Anything in a state of punishment forever cannot be reconciled or gathered in one. This fact alone is enough to compel a more thorough examination of the doctrine of eternal judgment.

I will agree with this... however... ALL the WORK of GOD was noted as FINISHED in Gen 2:1-3 -- the ENTIRETY of the HISTORY of MAN was complete from the END to the BEGINNING... That it unfolded in "time", does not have anything to do with it BEING COMPLETE... for ETERNITY notes COMPLETENESS and from ETERNITY did the END appear, all the way to the BEGINNING -- Isaiah 46:10-11

:Peace:

Hey WillieH!!  :bigGrin: I really enjoyed your message, as I always do!

I had a question though: if the Gospel is all about peace, how come Paul mentioned things like aionios judgement and destruction? That doesn't seem very "peaceful" to me. lol

But, in asking this, I'm not trying to "attack" you or anything like that. I was just curious and thought I'd ask you.

Thanks Willie!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2009, 11:41:14 PM
Hi Tim,

Let me start with saying that in none of the above posts my intention was to show Jesus came to judge in a negative way.
John 3:17 God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.
A clear verse. So we agree on the end result. But I think we slighty disagree on the path to that result.
God is rightous. God is just. God is merciful.
I think we shouldn't just pick out the merciful part of God's personality.
I know I'm contracdiction what I wrote a few lines above but I still think God will judge.
But I'm not saying John 3:17 is wrong. I think there is a very delicate balance here.
Throughout the Bible we see God pushing away His people (punishment/judgement/teaching) and later on He always draws them back (mercy).
When satan temped Jesus he said jump down because it's written that Gods sends angels to catch you. Jesus answered that it also is written not to tempt God. That's the balance I'm talking about.
Just as we should read a verse in context we should place that same context in the Bible context as a whole.


That is how I see it. If I would have gotten  :2c: for every mistake I would have been very wealthy :icon_jokercolor:

Hey WW, I wasn't trying to just pull out the "merciful parts" of God from Scripture. I just was trying to understand Jesus' words on saving rather than judging. Because to me, it seemed as if Jesus was saying that to judge is the opposite of to save. Therefore, if somebody is being judged, it is not for their salvation. Yet, a main thought in UR is that being judged IS a part of being saved. It's a part of God's method to save those men who will not follow him willingly (perhaps that's the right idea).

Hopefully that made sense. Thanks for your above contribution by the way. It's interesting to see the different ideas behind the idea of the word "judgement," "condemn" etc.

Quote from: Seth on September 06, 2009, 12:15:40 AM
Tim,
I think that is a good explaination, but I also think there is more to it. Check out verse 20 of John 3:

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (rebuked).

The original question was: "How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??"

What I believe is that judgment is indeed commended to Christ, only it is not the wrath of man, but the righteousness of God. In the manner that Christ is not here to judge the world is in "destroying men's lives." He did not come to do that. But he is the righteous judge.

Hebrews 10:30-31
For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, becauseI do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Hey Seth, I think this also agrees with what you're saying:

Luke 9:56

56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save;' and they went on to another village.

UPDATE: It actually seems that "and they went on to another village" is actually the only part of the original manuscripts. The first part doesn't appear in the CLT or the Greek Interlinear Bible.

Quote from: Tim B on September 06, 2009, 08:18:54 AM
Hey WW, I wasn't trying to just pull out the "merciful parts" of God from Scripture. I just was trying to understand Jesus' words on saving rather than judging. Because to me, it seemed as if Jesus was saying that to judge is the opposite of to save. Therefore, if somebody is being judged, it is not for their salvation. Yet, a main thought in UR is that being judged IS a part of being saved. It's a part of God's method to save those men who will not follow him willingly (perhaps that's the right idea).

Hopefully that made sense.

It did made sense Tim. As all your other posts in this thread.

QuoteThanks for your above contribution by the way. It's interesting to see the different ideas behind the idea of the word "judgement," "condemn" etc.

I think sometimes it's good to have shallow knowledge of the Bible and English in general. I always have my electronic Merriam-Webster dictionary on my taskbar.
I already wrote that "my" definitions came from Strongs. Not exactly a UR scholar. Just moments ago I looked up the words in Merriam-Webster. For me some defenitions where a complete suprise.


Condemn (4): => 14th century
to declare convertible to public use under the right of eminent domain

Judement:
Nothing of real use for this discussion.

Chastened: => 13th century
1 : to correct by punishment or suffering  : DISCIPLINE;  also   : PURIFY
2 a : to prune  (as a work or style of art) of excess, pretense, or falsity  : REFINE  b : to cause to be more humble or restrained  : SUBDUE

Condemn has a nice defenition. But look at chastened.... it's full 'Biblical words'

Quote from: Tim B on September 06, 2009, 08:58:02 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 06, 2009, 12:15:40 AM
Tim,
I think that is a good explaination, but I also think there is more to it. Check out verse 20 of John 3:

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (rebuked).

The original question was: "How should verse 32 be explained? Jesus said he came not to condemn the world, but to save it. How then, can the world be condemned if that wasn't Jesus goal??"

What I believe is that judgment is indeed commended to Christ, only it is not the wrath of man, but the righteousness of God. In the manner that Christ is not here to judge the world is in "destroying men's lives." He did not come to do that. But he is the righteous judge.

Hebrews 10:30-31
For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

John 5:30
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, becauseI do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Hey Seth, I think this also agrees with what you're saying:

Luke 9:56

56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save;' and they went on to another village.

UPDATE: It actually seems that "and they went on to another village" is actually the only part of the original manuscripts. The first part doesn't appear in the CLT or the Greek Interlinear Bible.

If that's true, thanks for letting me know. I'll look into that. It is true though. Jesus' judgments do not destroy men's lives and he indeed was sent to save.  :thumbsup:

Hi williesway
   As your post is very long and involved, first let me say I will read it and study your perspective in depth before I reply to anything I would like to take issue with, for the purpose of discussion. I try to weigh all things and hold fast what is good. After briefly reading your words however- let me say that the statement about exposure is agreeable to my view of the fire of God. Paul said, "every man's work will be tested with fire, for the day shall reveal it, and if any mans work be burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as one passing through fire". The "Day" as Peter tells us, is a day in which the elements will be consumed with intense heat destroying the present heavens and earth and revealing a new heavens and a new earth, in which dwelleth righteousness". Since everything that is hidden will be brought to light and that which is revealed is no longer darkness, but light.....I believe the fire and the light are the same and exposure is indeed the burning, for "thou wouldst teach me truth in the inner man and teach me wisdom in my inner parts". Since (Isaiah 26) "In That Day" he will slay Levitathan, the twisting fleeing serpent, with the sword that comes out of His mouth", which is the living and active sword of the spirit that "divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the inner thoughts and motives of the heart"(Hebrews 4:12), and because "all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do." And because (Is 26 again) "In That Day Sing Of It A Vineyard" fruitfulness is the result- I see the following- The Day of the Lord is a day in which there is no morning or evening Zech 14, and a nation will be born in that day, and that day may be as a thousand years-and that thousand years a day.  Because I agree that eternity transcends time (and is other than time, not endless time) and will swallow time- eternal fire is an experience that is difficult to define in human, time definitions, and its purpose is definitely exposure. However as Peter said, "be not amazed at the fiery trial" for it is for the "purifying of your faith" and that "all chastisement is for the moment(defining the time of its enduring) unpleasant" and in the end yields the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" -I see that God's completion of ultimate reconciliation involves scourging. The trial causes exposure, and that is the reason. In completing the subjection of all adversaries, the patience of the Lord is salvation, and the kindness of God leads us to repentence, and He is not slow concerning His promises but wills all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore 2 Cor 5:19 is a statement that I receive in full as the complete eternal finality of the will of God, and it will be worked out through times in which God expresses His patience- inexoriably moving towards the fulfillment of the plan He made before the ages- the restitution of all things. He will rule with a rod of iron in the next age at least. Exposure is at the center of all chastisement as he "Tries the reigns and the hearts". Once made light there is no power of darkness and the only power of darkness is to deceive. When the final fire/light/love has consumed all the adversaries God will be "over all in all and through all"...as we all know :laughhand:. I cannot make confident absolute assertions as to the nature of the fire and the exposure and the suffering of loss beyond the veil, but if the Logos expresses that it will be a bad experience and to be avoided and warned against- I know it will be unpleasant then, even as it is now for us who endure it as sons. Until every knee bows and every tongue confesses... let us strive to bring every thought captive. Amen.

Hi again willie. As i read your post more thoroughly, I find much to recommend. However, people make absolute statements and confident assertions all the time. I hope we are seeking Him together, and as Paul said, if any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know. So, I may agree with the things you shared more than you assume. Almost all of my post was verses of scripture and I made no statements of my own about the nature of the punishments, which I would perhaps better call corrections or remedial punishments. Exposure by fire is an excellent way to see them. I think however, that all the scripture must be taken into account . Fear has its place in time and perfect love cast out all fear, only in the heart of the one who is perfected in love. At the same time it is written, "Whom I love I rebuke and chasten." What we should all fear is arrogance, which places us crossways with the character of Christ which is being formed in us. "By the grace of God I say unto every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought, for unto each one is given a measure of grace." Some save with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Act 20:31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 
Luk 12:4-5  "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.  (5)  "But I will warn you whom to fear(Gr Phobeo): fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell (gehenna, where the garbage is burned); yes, I tell you, fear Him!

As you know I could quote a ton of scripture about the wrath of God and His penalties for the wicked, I won't bore you or anyone else with that. We could discuss the possibilities  of what hat those statements represent as long as we don't cut it out of whole cloth and make confident assertions that don't include all the word. But as long as the discussion is conducted within the parameters of "it is written" I am eager to share and learn and discuss and let iron sharpen iron.
There are many ifs ands and buts we can all state but I prefer to take the Lord at His Word, so I believe that there is reason to fear the penalties of unrighteousness- for the unrighteous. Yes, I understand that we are all unrighteous, but there is every benefit for receiving the blood applied "today" and persevering as overcomers, "abiding in the day", walking as "children of the day", so that we can receive the reward of the first resurrection.
The exposing fire of God's light will be a difficult experience for those who have to go through it because they refused to let the wood, hay and stubble be consumed out of their lives here. Of course there are many trials that exist for all we who live on this earth in this kosmos in this age(cancer, depression, sickness, war and the rest). The idea that there will be no more chastisement beyond this present age, I don't see that, as the "Day(hamerah) of the Age" or "Day of YHWH" is an administration suitable to the fulness of times (it is working out in time through the ages) and time will not be wrapped up until the last enemy is subjected, which is death.
2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pe 3:7  But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Any position I accept has to include all of the words, not just those that suit my perspective.

willieH: Hi eaglesway!  :cloud9:

Thanks for your reply!  :friendstu:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PM
Hi again willie. As i read your post more thoroughly, I find much to recommend. However, people make absolute statements and confident assertions all the time. I hope we are seeking Him together, and as Paul said, if any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know. So, I may agree with the things you shared more than you assume.

I was addressing your comments... I was not trying to "assume" anything, just address what you had written bro...

As far as what you "assume" that I "think" to know -- :laughing7: -- my present observations are the result of 33 years of study. 

Please know that this does not in any way mean there is not any further correction needed in those resultant studies... what it means is that they are not AT ALL a result of teachings which had been presented (and questioned by me) during my 25yrs of "church attendance"... 

Rather, they are the result of study of teachings which those "churches" presented to me, as compared to what the WORD SAYS... and might I add that I learn NEW THINGS DAILY from that WORD, which effect enhancement (a better or larger view) or at times, change my present view (an adjustment)...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMAlmost all of my post was verses of scripture and I made no statements of my own about the nature of the punishments, which I would perhaps better call corrections or remedial punishments.  Exposure by fire is an excellent way to see them. I think however, that all the scripture must be taken into account . Fear has its place in time and perfect love cast out all fear, only in the heart of the one who is perfected in love.

Then you therefore AGREE that FEAR should not be PART of the presentation of what one would be witnessing, as "THE GOSPEL"?

Also... "exposure by FIRE" is exactly what, as you see it, bro?  :dontknow:

Here is how I view this:  We are ever before GOD in our lives brother.  And "FIRE" takes on other aspects beside that which is found at the striking of a match. 

There is INDEED -- FIRE in passion AND compassion...

there is FIRE in exhilaration and edification (a coach before a game, "fires" up the team)...

there is FIRE in sorrow and failure (heartbreak is a FIRE which can BURN a lifetime -- failure and disappointment BURN those within them)...

there is FIRE in diseases which attack the body and mind (I had surgery for cancer last year), and NO ONE can tell me I did not experience FIRE in that process...

We are AMIDST FIRE as we speak, bro... in several different forms... both POSITIVE and NEGATIVE... For FIRE is both POSITIVE and NEGATIVE...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMAt the same time it is written, "Whom I love I rebuke and chasten." What we should all fear is arrogance, which places us crossways with the character of Christ which is being formed in us. "By the grace of God I say unto every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought, for unto each one is given a measure of grace." Some save with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

FEAR of GOD, who IS LOVE, cannot contain FEAR which INFLICTS TORMENT... How many of your "LOVED ONES" do you DREAD and FEAR, eaglesway?

The GOSPEL (which is the message we are TO BEAR, as followers of CHRIST) is ENTITLED -- PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- What part of PEACE do you observe as FEARFUL eaglesway? ...Should we FEAR "world peace"?  Or if a dispute arises in our lives, do we FEAR a resolution to that dispute?  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMAct 20:31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 
Luk 12:4-5  "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.  (5)  "But I will warn you whom to fear(Gr Phobeo): fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell (gehenna, where the garbage is burned); yes, I tell you, fear Him!

This Scripture does not project FEAR beyond this life bro... You REAP what you SOW... If you sow to the FLESH you shall REAP of the FLESH... [IN THIS LIFE]... what you SOW to the SPIRIT you shall REAP of the SPIRIT... [IN THIS LIFE]!

Those who are pursuing EVIL  shall be pursued BY IT... those who are pursuing GOOD shall be pursued BY IT...

We must FEAR the DIVINE retributions that can and WILL come upon us NOW!  I am battling CANCER bro... and have suffered a serious operation and subsequent therapy as well... I indeed have SOWN to my flesh within my days... and my battle is resultant of those deeds. 

GOD is not some COSMIC bully which shall "BEAT" us with the "STRIPES" of CANCER, AIDS, WAR, not to mention NATURE, only to give us MORE later!  If that is who He is, He is decieving us by saying that we should "FEAR no EVIL"... and that He is "LOVE"... and that He is the GOD of "PEACE"...

I ...NEVER... FEAR those who LOVE me.  I can't speak for YOU, but I DO NOT and SHALL NOT, serve GOD because I am AFRAID of Him...

I serve Him because I LOVE Him, and RESPECT Him... yet in my humanity, KNOW that I am, of myself -- INCAPABLE of LOVING and RESPECTING Him as His HOLINESS deserves.   However... If He should only LOVE me as I LOVE Him... what THANK has He?  -- Luke 6:22-36 --  No brother E... You are welcome to be AFRAID of your God... I cherish Him, because He already CHERISHES me...

And in my life, I -- FEAR -- no one which CHERISHES me...  :HeartThrob: :grouppray: :LoveH1:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMAs you know I could quote a ton of scripture about the wrath of God and His penalties for the wicked, I won't bore you or anyone else with that.

Go ahead eaglesway, propose OTHER than the GOSPEL and OTHER than LOVE, ...and I shall answer your "ton" of FEAR, ...with a "ton of PEACE" and a "ton" of LOVE"

The WRATH of God ...IS... revealed [not WILL BE] -- Rom 1:18 -- and His "anger" is but a MOMENT in duration -- Psalm 30:5 -- that MOMENT and WRATH, is NOW!

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMWe could discuss the possibilities  of what hat those statements represent as long as we don't cut it out of whole cloth and make confident assertions that don't include all the word. But as long as the discussion is conducted within the parameters of "it is written" I am eager to share and learn and discuss and let iron sharpen iron.

Bring it on bro!  I enjoy such conversation... and should GOD have teaching for me via your words, let it be so...  You already have much to answer first...

You know little of me, but you might ask others here, that will testify to you, that I shall be diligent to the detail... and I shall bring SCRIPTURE as the basis and foundation I stand upon...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMThere are many ifs ands and buts we can all state but I prefer to take the Lord at His Word, so I believe that there is reason to fear the penalties of unrighteousness- for the unrighteous.

You do not sound unlike most "christians" and "churches" that I have encountered over my many years (bless your heart)... 

I have not stated that ANY unrighteousness shall avoid WRATH... Have I?  And I challenge you to note where or when I shall state this. It aint gonna happen!

The difference in our observations, is that -- YOU percieve we get all THIS awful and dreadful stuff now in THIS LIFE, ...only to get MORE of the same (or worse) in Resurrection!  Whereas -- I observe that the GOOD NEWS is that -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- that our transgressions are RECONCILED and -- John 1:29 -- TAKEN AWAY -- which is what the GOSPEL means, and IS the GOOD NEWS we are to BRING to the world...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMYes, I understand that we are all unrighteous, but there is every benefit for receiving the blood applied "today" and persevering as overcomers, "abiding in the day", walking as "children of the day", so that we can receive the reward of the first resurrection.

And you percieve the "1st resurrection" as happening WHEN, eaglesway?

It has already been seen that you will not address my detailed answer to you, but please DO answer this question if you will:

What makes you an "overcomer" eaglesway?  Your purposed obediences?  Or good deeds?  Is it YOUR Faith that makes it happen?

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMThe exposing fire of God's light will be a difficult experience for those who have to go through it because they refused to let the wood, hay and stubble be consumed out of their lives here.

Says YOU  :dontknow: ...I propose differently.  It IS a difficult experience... not "WILL BE" -- Rom 1:18 -- John 12:31

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMOf course there are many trials that exist for all we who live on this earth in this kosmos in this age(cancer, depression, sickness, war and the rest). The idea that there will be no more chastisement beyond this present age, I don't see that, as the "Day(hamerah) of the Age" or "Day of YHWH" is an administration suitable to the fulness of times (it is working out in time through the ages) and time will not be wrapped up until the last enemy is subjected, which is death.

The FULLNESS of TIMES has already BEEN -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17

THIS is the "DAY" of YHVH -- Gen 2:4 -- in which ALL GENERATIONS of MAN appear.

Gen 2:3 -- Says that ALL of God's WORK was DONE at the conclusion of the 6th DAY... Do you not see this eaglesway?

Quote2Pe 2:9  then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pe 3:7  But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I have already noted that --NOW -- is the DAY of Judgment per the WORDS of CHRIST -- John 12:31

Hmmm...  and just WHO has been ...GODLY eaglesway?  The SCRIPTURE says NONE -- Psalm 14:1-3 -- Rom 3:10-12 ...and,

WHO did CHRIST die for, eaglesway?  Hint:  Rom 5:6-8 -- So ALL that he died for were, ...ahem... UNGODLY.

And how many are "RIGHTEOUS" bro?  Are you?  Not me... I'm one of those "ungodly" ones that He died for...  Only HE was RIGHTEOUS...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2009, 11:53:26 PMAny position I accept has to include all of the words, not just those that suit my perspective.

Wow!  What a "backhanded" thing to say...  :laughing7: ...are you saying that I am not considering ALL the words, eaglesway? 

Just because they happen to disagree with your own views of them, does not equate them to have been noted to "suit" my perspective... :laughhand:

The JEWS had the Scriptures LONG before CHRIST appeared, yet when He appeared, they couldn't SEE who He was!  Even though those Scriptures PLAINLY testified of Him... We must BOTH consider that those verses which we think to speak in one manner, can well be speaking otherwise...

I spent many years in Orthodoxy... and am well aware of their teachings... You bring some of them with you here to TM...

I will discuss any of them you wish to discuss... MOST of them are FALSE.  And know this bro... I have NO AGENDA to change you OR your beliefs... Only GOD can reveal.  So after our discussions... there is no sweat off my back, that you might remain RIGHT where you are...

I can tell you this ahead of time, ...I spent 25 years within Babylon, and have no intention of returning... if you think you shall change my vision of FEAR, think again. I spent 20 believing HELL and 5 believing ANNHILATION, neither of which have an iota of TRUTH in them... (and if you're Catholic -- don't waste your time presenting to me, the myth of "purgatory"  :laughing7:)

Grace and peace willieH. I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it all, and I still think you are assuming a few things. The subject of the post was 1 Corinthians 11:32, it had nothing to do with torment, it was about the discipline of the Lord and the judgment of the world. I do believe firmly that the Father caused all His fulness to dwell in Christ in order to reconcile (God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself) all things back to Himself through the blood of the cross(Colossians 1;16-21 Eph 1:1-11, 1Jn2:2). I do know what spirit I am of- the spirit of reconciliation. I do not believe in annhilation or eternal torment. I do see in the types of father and child, land owner & steward, bride and harlot, lamb and beast - principles of correction and just recompense on the way to the administration of the mystery, the summing up of all things in Christ.
   However, I also believe that the fire and exposure of God for the unrepentant wicked in this age, and the outerdarkness where rebellious spirits are held against the day for judgment, and similar things are unpleasant experiences to be avoided, tho remedial in nature, both "Today" and in the unfolding of "The Day" that is yet to come. This is to me a reasonable explanation of that particular verse and the post. I see you disagree  :bigGrin:
     I believe the tendency of some people to go beyond what is written in defining things in words that exceed our Lords words and the words of the apostles and the prophets is one that anyone can fall into, including me. I love the word, and all those who love the word, whether they agree with me or not is secondary up to a point. Also, I know no man after the flesh. Babylon is in us, sometimes long after we "leave it". "Blessed are the ones in whose hearts are the highways to Zion, who have set there hearts on pilgrimage." Also, I am not by any means interested in pitting the fear of the Lord against the love of God-That was not the subject of the post, nor was it my intent in replying. No contest, I fully believe that mercy triumphs over judgment. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Every thing God does, including the chastisement of His children and the judgment of the wicked springs from His love. For me, all the paradigms of God are fulfilled in Christ and the administration of the mystery hidden from the wise and the noble, and the ages past, now and revealed unto babes through His apostles and prophets. I am blessed to know you have been studying 33 years. The timing is amazing. I am 55 and have been studying for almost the exact same time.
    I do agree that fear is not a part of presenting the "good news" to most men. The Pharisees, the false apostles, the wandering stars and the legalists are the only ones who need to fear. Jesus only threatened the Pharisees and lawyers and scribes and rulers with Gehenna. Paul presented the gospel on Mars Hill to the Gentiles in an entirely different manner than he used with the stiff-necked and the arrogant, and such as Hymenias and Philetus, and such as the Pharisees. Obviously both Paul and God love them, but the axe got laid to the root of the trees and they were warned before the sentence to repent. The writer of Hebrews spoke to the saints about the fate of those who do not enter His rest, the finished work, as falling in the wilderness-"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation". He was speaking of the disciplines of God, and failing to enter the promise. It was related to, "Today, if you hear His voice," i.e., walking in the light. Only those who sleep need fear the thief. We are children of the day. We are called, chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, the image of God. The veil is removed in Christ. There is loss to be suffered for refusing to enter in, for carnal, rebellious believers first, and also for the the wicked rulers and predators of this world second. This loss is not torment, it is God's just determination, "whose reward is with Him and who tries the reins and the hearts". The testimonies of all the prophets and every apostle and our Lord clearly bear witness to this discipline and judgment in terms that deserve to be respected and noted for all. Even the dealings of God with such as Achan in the wilderness(he hid the gold and garb of Babylon under his tent) and Annanias and Saphira(lying to the Holy Spirit while seeking pre-eminience among the brethren), show that our God is wonderful and terrible and  beyond our comprehension. Now, there could be an issue of whether all discipline is torment. I do not believe punishment involves torment, as such. Is God tormenting the sons whom he chastises? I don t think so. Torment is only for the sake of pain. Chastisement involves pain for the sake of gaining ones attention, or disturbing entrenched patterns of behavior. The record of Israel in the wilderness is a pertinent one. The post I was responding to was about discipline, not torment, and about the condemnation(tribunal judgment) of the world, and why the Father chastises us...yes with edification, rebuke and reproof- but also at times also with judgments. I believe I see the chastisement and judgment of God continuing past this age until all the enemies are reconciled.
    It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Behold BOTH the kindness and the severity of God. If you want to argue about what that means, I am not interested, but discussing the whole subject of the day of the Lord and the judgments and disciplines of God- I am always interested. Every one of us is warned by Paul about what we think we know- I take that warning seriously for myself and was making the point that no one has reason to boast. What have any of us that was not given by God? Whether called into the field of labor in the morning or in the last hour of the day....God distributes to each one according to His grace.

   Heb 12:9-12  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?  (10)  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.  (11)  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.  (12)  Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

     Heb 12:15-17  Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  (16)  Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.  (17)  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

     Mat 25:41-43  Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;  (42)  for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;  (43)  a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

      1Co 11:28-32  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.  (29)  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.  (30)  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.  (31)  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.  (32)  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

willieH: Hi Eaglesway... :cloud9:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
willieH:  Hi brother E...   

Grace and peace willieH. I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it all, and I still think you are assuming a few things. The subject of the post was 1 Corinthians 11:32, it had nothing to do with torment, it was about the discipline of the Lord and the judgment of the world. I do believe firmly that the Father caused all His fulness to dwell in Christ in order to reconcile (God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself) all things back to Himself through the blood of the cross(Colossians 1;16-21 Eph 1:1-11, 1Jn2:2). I do know what spirit I am of- the spirit of reconciliation. I do not believe in annhilation or eternal torment. I do see in the types of father and child, land owner & steward, bride and harlot, lamb and beast - principles of correction and just recompense on the way to the administration of the mystery, the summing up of all things in Christ.

Grace & peace unto you as well...

This reply doesn't really point out -- where exactly it is that YOU think am I "assuming"?

I see the "types" as well... but also believe it is an "assumption" that these are taking place beyond THIS LIFE...  and such IMO is not in line with "reconciliation" for if it carries beyond, how may it be determined as "reconciled"?  How is it in line with 2 Cor 5:18-19?

Correction and recompense is EASILY seen as taking place HERE and NOW. 

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
However, I also believe that the fire and exposure of God for the unrepentant wicked in this age, and the outerdarkness where rebellious spirits are held against the day for judgment, and similar things are unpleasant experiences to be avoided, tho remedial in nature, both "Today" and in the unfolding of "The Day" that is yet to come.

To begin with, repentence can only be found by the LEADING of GOD -- Rom 2:4 -- John 6:44 -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- No man CAN come except he be DRAGGED -- No man CAN confess except BY the Holy Spirit --  :dontknow:

Within this statement appears to be "Orthodoxy's" view of "outer darkness"... CHRIST was sent EXCLUSIVELY to the lost sheep of ISRAEL... Which so notes that even though the LIGHT of GOD was right before them... they remained (and still do for the most part -- Rom 11:25) in "outer darkness"... for the TRUTH about that "darkness" is that it percieves NOT, ...the LIGHT, and remains in "outer darkness".

You perceive a "Day" ("The Day") to come... while it is here before you NOW, dear brother.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMThis is to me a reasonable explanation of that particular verse and the post. I see you disagree

I will "assume" you refer to 1 Cor 11:32 -- but when it comes down to it, JESUS said -- "NOW is the JUDGMENT of ...THIS WORLD..." -- John 12:31

After having just said that the WORLD had been RECONCILED (2 Cor 5:19) -- Paul also used this SAME kind of terminology...  by saying:  "NOW is the Day of Salvation" -- "NOW is the ACCEPTED time" -- 2 Cor 6:2 --

Do you percieve he was talking about some "NOW" off in the future?  :JCThink:  Or was he noting as did CHRIST that NOW (not in the future or beyond the present) -- is the "WHEN" that SALVATION and JUDGMENT occurs?  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
I believe the tendency of some people to go beyond what is written in defining things in words that exceed our Lords words and the words of the apostles and the prophets is one that anyone can fall into, including me. I love the word, and all those who love the word, whether they agree with me or not is secondary up to a point. Also, I know no man after the flesh. Babylon is in us, sometimes long after we "leave it".

I COMPLETELY agree with these words dear brother... and IMO you bring a piece of it with you here bro...

Orthodoxy is the entity which teaches torment, vengence and FEAR of the Resurrection in its teaching... what's the difference between your view of this, and theirs?

As far as defining things in the WORD, ...ALL the SPIRITUAL understanding IN IT is HIDDEN from ALL, and must be SOUGHT -- Jer 29:13-14 -- Pro 25:2 -- Paul noted this condition to be found in the Jews, as I just noted above... and it is PURPOSED by God to be so (hidden)...

As I said to you previously, it is NOT my agenda to change you OR your observances, in any way... THAT is God's work, not mine... If , during our conversations you come to see something differently, it was Him directing you, not me.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
"Blessed are the ones in whose hearts are the highways to Zion, who have set there hearts on pilgrimage." Also, I am not by any means interested in pitting the fear of the Lord against the love of God-That was not the subject of the post, nor was it my intent in replying. No contest, I fully believe that mercy triumphs over judgment. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Every thing God does, including the chastisement of His children and the judgment of the wicked springs from His love.

Okay... I can dig it!  However, only ONE man was "righteous", all others are SINNERS and therefore "wicked" and in NEED of Judgment... which is WHY Judgment begins at the HOUSE of GOD...  :dontknow:

Let me ask you another question (which you seem to avoid - have already several UNANSWERED ones to date)...

What PURPOSE do you percieve in all the DISEASE, and SORROWS in MAN's experience IN THIS LIFE? ..

Which exist within many varied forms within the course of THIS LIFE (cancer, aids, heart disease, hepititas, flu's, etc) and emerg from nature as well (hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, etc)?

Are you so shielded from observation that you do not see these as JUDGMENT brought both individually and and at times, collectively against the SINFUL human race?

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
For me, all the paradigms of God are fulfilled in Christ and the administration of the mystery hidden from the wise and the noble, and the ages past, now and revealed unto babes through His apostles and prophets. I am blessed to know you have been studying 33 years. The timing is amazing. I am 55 and have been studying for almost the exact same time.

It is easy to see this, both in your conversation, and in the content of it...  And I am blessed at your devotion to your studies!  :boogie:

However, you noted previously that IRON shall sharpen IRON... with which I agree... let us continue in our exchanges, for once one is "in shape" spiritually, ...further exercise is needed to KEEP that condition in tact!   :Book:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
I do agree that fear is not a part of presenting the "good news" to most men. The Pharisees, the false apostles, the wandering stars and the legalists are the only ones who need to fear. Jesus only threatened the Pharisees and lawyers and scribes and rulers with Gehenna.

Might I pause this a moment...

JESUS did no such thing as "threaten"... He noted the destiny of the RELIGIOUS (scribes/pharisees), which shall come to SHAME, and which is what "GEHENNA" represented.

"Gehenna" was representative of SHAME... not of punishment... those whose bodies that were cast into "Gehenna" were made a PUBLIC SHAME... and those bodies cast into Gehenna were NOT EXPERIENTIAL (living).  Rather it was to SHAME them before ALL... at the CONCLUSION of life here on earth.

The JEWS considered burial (still do), a sacred and blessed event, representative of a LIFE which was lived in an acceptable fashion as required by the Words of YHVH... GEHENNA was NOT presented by CHRIST as  a "threat" for punishment beyond THIS LIFE, rather, pointed to the SHAME in which they lived WHILE in THIS LIFE... (Especially to their family and friends)...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
Paul presented the gospel on Mars Hill to the Gentiles in an entirely different manner than he used with the stiff-necked and the arrogant, and such as Hymenias and Philetus, and such as the Pharisees. Obviously both Paul and God love them, but the axe got laid to the root of the trees and they were warned before the sentence to repent.

Not to side track our conversation, but my wife and I record under the name "the MARS HILL Project"...   -- I am quite familiar with Acts 17 and Paul's presentation there...  :reachout:

Also... in ALL of Paul's writings... NOT ONCE did he mention "GEHENNA"... neither did the Apostle John in ALL his writings... furthermore... the ONLY mention of it (outside of CHRIST in the "Gospel" accounts -- in which He only used the word GEHENNA on 4 total occasions in over 1200+ days of ministry)... is found in James 3:6 -- and is within his reprimand of men who would CURSE other men (with a "GEHENNA tongue"), as they were "supposedly" delivering the "GOOD NEWS" [Gospel]   :faint:

James 3:6 -- and the TONGUE IS a FIRE, a WORLD of INIQUITY so is the TONGUE among our members, that it DEFILETH the whole body, and setteth on FIRE, the course of nature and is set on fire of GEHENNA...

Do you not see this reprimand, Eaglesway?  He is stating the TONGUE as INIQUITOUS and being USED by these "witnesses"!

Then James goes on to say THIS about these "tongues":

James 3:9-11 -- THEREWITH BLESS we GOD, even the Father, and THEREWITH we CURSE we MEN which are made after the similitude [likeness] of God... Out of the SAME MOUTH proceedeth BLESSING and CURSING.  My brethren,  THESE THINGS OUGHT ...NOT... be SO.  Doth a fountain send forth at the SAME PLACE, ...sweet and bitter?

James is scolding these for the FORK-TONGUED message they were bringing... mixing both GOOD and BAD into their testimony which they were bringing to the world. 

This is the SOLE appearance of the word GEHENNA in Apostlic testimony in Scripture... and it points out and describes the message of ORTHODOXY to a "tea"... 

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
The writer of Hebrews spoke to the saints about the fate of those who do not enter His rest, the finished work, as falling in the wilderness-"How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation". He was speaking of the disciplines of God, and failing to enter the promise. It was related to, "Today, if you hear His voice," i.e., walking in the light. Only those who sleep need fear the thief. We are children of the day. We are called, chosen and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, the image of God. The veil is removed in Christ.

Ahh yes!  PREDESTINED (one of my favorites to discuss!)...

It is GOD that BEFORE birth -- Rom 9:11 -- decides WHO is and WHO IS NOT "predestined" -- Eph 2:10 -- which is about HIS PURPOSE, ...not ours... Accomplished by HIM, ...not us...

He also claims COMPLETE IMPARTIALITY 10 times in Scripture (I'll gladly provide them if you need them all)... So if PREDESTINATION is in place for SOME and not others... basically it cannot be considered that our "entering into His REST" is a DOING of our own, rather, we have been ELECTED beforehand, and it is according to HIS PURPOSE for ALL that this is SO... for He ...IS... Impartial to ALL... (Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Gal 2:6 -- Rom 2:11 -- Job 34:19 and others)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
There is loss to be suffered for refusing to enter in, for carnal, rebellious believers first, and also for the the wicked rulers and predators of this world second.

Well... the "loss" is that you did not partake of the GLORY of that rest while in THIS LIFE.  As for "wicked rulers"... it is decided by GOD that they "take office"... and their actions, abeit NEGATIVE are for the GLORY -- Rom 9:17 -- GOD raised Pharaoh to GLORIFY Himself... do you know HOW "Pharaoh" -- glorified GOD, Eaglesway?

The interaction of MOSES and PHARAOH would appear to some as a "game"... 1st GOD tells MOSES to DEMAND of Pharoah to "let MY people go"... then goes before MOSES, and HARDENS Pharaoh's heart!  Whattupwidat?   :mshock:

Glad you asked!    This is a demonstration that shows that neither the GOOD man [MOSES], nor the BAD man [PHARAOH], nor ANY OTHER MAN... Shall determine the moment or INSTANCE of DELIVERANCE!  Moses fully expected the Children of ISRAEL to be released -- EACH TIME! ...but GOD alone, was to decide when this would occur... MOSES and PHARAOH both combined to demonstrate that DELIVERANCE is EXCLUSIVELY in the HAND and DECISION of YHVH GOD...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
This loss is not torment, it is God's just determination, "whose reward is with Him and who tries the reins and the hearts". The testimonies of all the prophets and every apostle and our Lord clearly bear witness to this discipline and judgment in terms that deserve to be respected and noted for all. Even the dealings of God with such as Achan in the wilderness(he hid the gold and garb of Babylon under his tent) and Annanias and Saphira(lying to the Holy Spirit while seeking pre-eminience among the brethren), show that our God is wonderful and terrible and  beyond our comprehension.

Brother Eaglesway... Annanias and Saphira could do NOTHING other than what they did, for it is so noted in the WORD.  The WORD did not need the manifestation of "Annanias and Saphira" to LIE to the Holy Spirit in order to BE...

They in fact did so, BECAUSE the WORD SAYS they did... the WORD is without Beginning or End... And what these two would DO, ...so existed IN the WORD of GOD, prior to these 2 becoming living beings, able to "lie"...

The WORD is not in any way ESTABLISHED by the "doings" or decisions of men... It is according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD... which CANNOT be ALTERED by a "created" being...  We live and DO what we do, because it is FORETOLD we shall DO what we DO ...by... the WORD!

Do you think that the "10 Commandments" came into BEING at the moment that GOD wrote them in the tablets of stone before an amazed MOSES?  Or are they in fact, EVER EXISTING premises which have ALWAYS BEEN, and shall ALWAYS BE?  ...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM
Now, there could be an issue of whether all discipline is torment. I do not believe punishment involves torment, as such. Is God tormenting the sons whom he chastises? I don t think so. Torment is only for the sake of pain. Chastisement involves pain for the sake of gaining ones attention, or disturbing entrenched patterns of behavior. The record of Israel in the wilderness is a pertinent one. The post I was responding to was about discipline, not torment, and about the condemnation(tribunal judgment) of the world, and why the Father chastises us...yes with edification, rebuke and reproof- but also at times also with judgments. I believe I see the chastisement and judgment of God continuing past this age until all the enemies are reconciled.

ALL enemies ARE reconciled and always have been bro -- Col 1:20

Reconciliation is manifest linearly in TIME for the finites within it... (such as ourselves) but in ETERNITY, that "reconciliation" ALWAYS IS...

Upon WHAT do you base the "chastisement and judgment" of God to continue "past this age"?

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMIt is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Behold BOTH the kindness and the severity of God. If you want to argue about what that means, I am not interested, but discussing the whole subject of the day of the Lord and the judgments and disciplines of God- I am always interested.

It is up to you whether or not you reply to what I say... However... ALL men are ALWAYS in the HANDS of the LIVING GOD, bro! -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:20-21

And please do not preach SEVERITY of GOD, is not present within THIS LIFE... I am a Cancer victim bro... and IMO, it is pretty doggone SEVERE... Also, CANCER was decided to be what IT IS, by God... and before I was born, it was already a fact (in Eternity) that I would one day (in Time) deal with it. 

He has been and IS ...VERY SEVERE in THIS LIFE concerning the human race -- Cancer being an excellent example of that severity... GOOD is also exampled in THIS LIFE (my wife of 33 years is one example, 3 kids, and 10 grandkids, numerous friends, etc are others, no doubt you have a list as well!)

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMEvery one of us is warned by Paul about what we think we know- I take that warning seriously for myself and was making the point that no one has reason to boast. What have any of us that was not given by God? Whether called into the field of labor in the morning or in the last hour of the day....God distributes to each one according to His grace.

No one is "boasting" here bro...  :dontknow:

Concerning what has been given to each of us, ...we recieve of Both GOOD ...and... EVIL brother... ALL these things proceed from and are ORDAINED BY YHVH, it is all over the OT ---> 1 Sam 18:10 -- 1 Kings 9:9 -- Job 42:11

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMHeb 12:9-12  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?  (10)  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.  (11)  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.  (12)  Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

I believe that my testimony of cancer is an example of this...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMHeb 12:15-17  Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;  (16)  Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.  (17)  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I see His GRACE in everything brother, including the Cancer... how about you?

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AMMat 25:41-43  Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;  (42)  for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;  (43)  a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

THIS LIFE is the "AGE DURING" bro... whether you choose to see it or not...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 08, 2009, 06:20:47 AM1Co 11:28-32  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.  (29)  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.  (30)  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.  (31)  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.  (32)  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Good counsel...  the word above "condemned" actually means "judged against"...

Rev 3:18 -- SHAME of Nakedness is that which results... not torments or punishments... rather ACCOUNT...

WilliH:

Do you think there will be any "after life" punishments? (Not necessarily torments, but punishments for the good of the one being punished.)

Or do you think there will simply be shame for the wicked things that people have done?

willieH: Hi TimB  :cloud9:

Quote from: Tim B on September 11, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
WilliH:

Do you think there will be any "after life" punishments? (Not necessarily torments, but punishments for the good of the one being punished.)

Or do you think there will simply be shame for the wicked things that people have done?

To begin with, I do NOT believe there is such a "thing" as "afterlife".  We return to where we began... ETERNITY.

I believe there is SHAME  which must be faced in giving account.  This is why God is seen WIPING AWAY the "tears" in Rev 21:4  :cloud9:

Punishments are the result of sowing to the flesh, which shall also be reaped of the flesh -- Gal 6:8 -- 2 Pet 2:12 -- while IN the flesh... in the here & now!

Think about it... why should we reap in the Spirit, for what was SOWN (misdeeds done) in the FLESH?

Sorry my answer here is brief, ...at the moment, I have an arthritis condition in my left hand and can only type with my right.  :sigh:

Willie I'm sending you a pm.

Blessings

 

God bless ya Bro Willie , this is a good read  I am blessed to read it , you pour your heart out  and I can so see /hear   what you/and the Spirit  are saying !   keep up the ''good works'' bro ! :thumbsup:
love ya bunches  :HeartThrob:  rose

Quote from: willieH on September 11, 2009, 11:45:30 PM
willieH: Hi TimB  :cloud9:

Quote from: Tim B on September 11, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
WilliH:

Do you think there will be any "after life" punishments? (Not necessarily torments, but punishments for the good of the one being punished.)

Or do you think there will simply be shame for the wicked things that people have done?

To begin with, I do NOT believe there is such a "thing" as "afterlife".  We return to where we began... ETERNITY.

I believe there is SHAME  which must be faced in giving account.  This is why God is seen WIPING AWAY the "tears" in Rev 21:4  :cloud9:

Punishments are the result of sowing to the flesh, which shall also be reaped of the flesh -- Gal 6:8 -- 2 Pet 2:12 -- while IN the flesh... in the here & now!

Think about it... why should we reap in the Spirit, for what was SOWN (misdeeds done) in the FLESH?

Sorry my answer here is brief, ...at the moment, I have an arthritis condition in my left hand and can only type with my right.  :sigh:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Hmm, I like these thoughts. They're cool.  :bigGrin:

So, do you think people like Hitler (an easy example) were punished for all their sins on Earth, and what about people being payed back double, or seven fold, such as Babylon in the book of Revelation? Do you think these two fold and seven fold punishments are just meant for the here and now too?

I'm sorry you're suffering in your left hand. :( I'll send a prayer up for ya! God bless you Willie!  :Urock:

willieH:  Hi TimB...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 09:26:55 AM
Hmm, I like these thoughts. They're cool.  :bigGrin:

:winkgrin:

Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 09:26:55 AMSo, do you think people like Hitler (an easy example) were punished for all their sins on Earth, and what about people being payed back double, or seven fold, such as Babylon in the book of Revelation? Do you think these two fold and seven fold punishments are just meant for the here and now too?

We can only witness "torment" on an external basis, and measure it by our own experience.  For example... I can (and did) watch my wife give birth to my daughter.  Though I was able to view her in the torment of childbirth, in NO WAY can I state that I "know" what she went through can I?

Also... "Torment" is found in many other areas other than the PHYSICAL PLANE in which that particular form of PAIN takes place... There is torment in Losing LOVE, which can and does extend beyond PHYSICAL PAIN... yet no bleeding takes place, no "pain pills" will relieve it, and it can extend to a LIFELONG DURATION in some...

My point is that when the "what goes around, comes around" is enacted in our doings... just because we stole MONEY from someone does not equate to us losing 7 times that MONEY later on... Maybe the recompense will be in the loss of HEALTH or DISAPPOINTMENT, or FRIENDSHIP etc...

Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 09:26:55 AMI'm sorry you're suffering in your left hand. :( I'll send a prayer up for ya! God bless you Willie!  :Urock:

Thanks for your concern and especially for the prayer, my dear friend... it is part of the suffering I must bear to become complete, in following my Savior!  Peace be unto you... :Peace:

willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

Quote from: rosered on September 12, 2009, 08:27:34 PM
  God bless ya Bro Willie , this is a good read  I am blessed to read it , you pour your heart out  and I can so see /hear   what you/and the Spirit  are saying !   keep up the "good works" bro ! :thumbsup:
love ya bunches  :HeartThrob:  rose

Thanks dear sister Rose, I am so happy that God may take wording through my hand and bless others with it... Much love in JESUS your way as well!  :HeartThrob: